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V/I Table: The Quiet Labor of Leadership · Integrity at Scale™

• Have you ever wanted to lift the hood on leadership and look into the emotional physics and the invisible work and how a visionary integrator dynamic can hold the tension and the responsibility and the humanity of running a practice? Welcome to the Culture Focused Practice Podcast. I am your host, Dr. Tara Vossenkemper, and that's our goal for the day. We are going to look into the unseen, unglamorous, emotional, operational work. Leadership, the quiet labor of leadership. This is actually though an entirely new segment. So I had my integrator on with me a couple of episodes ago. She's with me today. Her name is Taylor. Hey. What up? What up? What up? What up, Cynthia? What up Cynthia? What up Cynthia? And I realized I was actually thinking about this at like six this morning. I woke up and I was just thinking about you, thinking about us on the podcast, you know. And I realized after having her on the first time, that I wanted to continue to have her on. And I wanted us to have a very distinct segment and a recurring segment on the Culture Focused Practice podcast. So you are officially listening to the first Visionary Integrator table, the vi table of the podcast. Two things. Table is double entendre for me. Number one, I love King Arthur and the round table. So if I say table, I'm envisioning a round table just to be very, very clear about that. This is not a square or rectangle, like it's a round table. Second thing is I feel like consistently and t dog, you can attest to this, but I feel like consistently throughout our relationship and also in my own, like how things live inside my head and how I say them out loud, I'll reference players at a table. Yeah. Or like it's just, yeah, this is just a player at the table. And so I think it's something that already has like life between us and um, like conceptually, it's sort of like meets a metaphorical need. Yeah. So yeah, that's it. This is the vi table, the first official segment, and we are again talking about the quiet labor of leadership. There is leadership work that nobody sees. It's internal monitoring, it's emotional holding. It's weight that we carry so that our employees and our direct reports don't have to. It's very, very likely, mostly unseen. It's not really glamorous and I mean, it's not sexy. I don't think there's anything that's like enticing or like glittery about it. But what I will say is that when you have a visionary and an integrator working side by side, when you have a healthy relationship, the labor gets divided, it gets shared. It's sometimes misunderstood, it's sometimes magnified, but it's weight that's being carried now by more than just you as a visionary or as a business owner. So the breakdown of our vi table is that we're going to prompt ourselves with questions and then we're going to talk. And that's really it. Taylor, are you ready? Do you have anything you wanna add before we get going? No, I'm so ready. Okay. There's some really good questions here. You told me what this is gonna be about and I've also been, it's like, it's been like marinating for me. Like things are just coming up. So I'm interested to see what the questions are gonna be and how my, my priming will seep out into our conversation. Yeah, yeah. I'm excited too. Also for the record, Taylor, I mean, I haven't thought about these questions, but I see them in front of me. Taylor has not seen them at all, so this is like entirely new, which, um, I love that sort of process. Yeah. Okay. Let's kick this off. Question number one. What does quiet labor feel like in leadership and how does it show up for each of us? You start. What does quiet labor look like? Um. And feel like, and feel like, what does Tara want? I hear that all the time. And you say that so often I start, it's like now internalized in my like, that's so funny. Um, I think it, I think it is. I like, I like what you said earlier that like, it's not sexy. Like this work isn't sexy. I think that, um, I think that people's perceptions of what leadership is or can be, are likely very, very different than the reality. Um, and I think that that's where the quietness comes in. Um, and so I'm thinking about like, I think we were maybe in, um, maybe one of your momentum discussions. I think I said something to the effect of, um, we were talking about rocks, um, and I said something to the effect of like. I like jokingly, will like cringe away and like try to make myself small to like not get a rock. Um, because oftentimes my point is, um, oftentimes in leadership you are going to have to do work that you like, don't wanna do in, in some respect. Like, um, there are times when I'm doing projects that I'm really jazzed about. I stayed up way too late last night working on our annual report, which is like a for fun. It is a for fun project. Yeah. I think it's gonna add value. I think it is meaningful to our practice. Um, but is it gonna impact our revenue stream? No. Is it gonna impact, you know what I mean? Like the impact is more cultural, um, vibey than tangible. And so that's something I'm super jazzed about. I don't feel as jazzed about like entering data into some spreadsheets or, um, sitting down and conceptualizing, um. Like our role transitions when someone's moving from an intern to a, um, a provisionally licensed clinician. Um, so I think the part of the quietness is that there is a lot of aspects of leadership where you get to do things you're passionate about and there's some freedom there about getting to choose what you do. But there's also kind of a heavy responsibility of having to do work that you don't want to do or that no one really wants to do. Like we kind of joke sometimes that I'm your toilet, you know, from like all of the office. This is an office reference. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Like Gabe, Gabe, Gabe is the toilet flush. Um, but that it is and actuality, so the joke is that essentially he ends up taking on the stuff that his superior doesn't want to do. Robert, California. And he like, and he takes care of it. He flushes it away. He disposes of it. And it's a joke, but it's also kind of true sometimes, like I do, um, in, in some ways take on stuff that either the visionary, honestly, it's not about want, it's, it's really, it's not about want, it's about what makes sense for the rules. Mm-hmm. Um, and sometimes it aligns with want, but for us, the key decision maker is like role alignment. Um, so that's, that's a lot of words for me saying like, um, it's, it's work. It's in the background, it's work in the background. And I think as humans, we want to do work that is meaningful. And, um, some of that meaning is like the, the derivation of that meaning is like implicit. Like I, I understand this work to be meaningful. And so the act of doing it, um, gives me meaning. But I do think there's another aspect of. That work being seen and recognized and acknowledged. Um, that also gives a, a sense of fulfillment or meaning. Um, and oftentimes the work that leadership is doing is not seen or directly felt, and that's actually, it should be that way, in my opinion, most of what we are doing, um, it should not feel explicitly impactful for our team. Um, in fact, it should be minimizing actually the felt experience of like work or drudgery or difficulty. Um, we're greasing the wheels for people. Mm-hmm. So that they're, so that as they're going down the track, it is smooth and they're not thinking about all of these other things that we are thinking. So it's, it's like, um, there's difficulty in, I guess being okay with a kind of a lack of acknowledgement. Mm-hmm. Or, um. I think we say sometimes like it's thankless. It's thankless. Or like they just don't, they don't get It can be, yeah. Like people don't get it. And I'm not necessarily, not necessarily like our employees, like they don't get it, man. They don't appreciate it, but like, they don't, they don't actually know what it's like to be in leadership and for better or for worse, that's the way it should be. Mm-hmm. Um, so much for me always goes back to like, leadership and parenting are just so intertwined for me. Like, I don't want my kids to, to feel how fucking hard it is to be a parent, to be parenting them. That's not, I don't want, I don't my kid to be that. It's fucking hard. Mm-hmm. And I'm like gritting my teeth doing hard work every day. Um, I don't feel it, like, leadership doesn't feel that level of intensity for me, um, because I am a mother of a 3-year-old and six month old twins. So it's very intense right now. Yeah. Yeah. It's very different. There's, there's something there about, like, I don't want my staff. I don't want my team to feel, um, sometimes the depth of, of the challenging work, whether that's intellectually challenging or emotionally challenging or, I mean, I'm thinking about when we did the, we, we transitioned, we attempted to transition EHRs. Um, oh God, that was so awful. Awful. I was, I mean I was up, I was working probably 80 hours a week for a couple Jesus of Weeks to get this hate that to rolled out. It was awful. Yeah. Um, oh, I feel so fucking sorry about that. Just that we did it. The work that you put into, I mean, it was such a horrible experience. I can look back on it now and say like, I'm grateful for the experience for what I learned, and I learned a lot in that experience. Mm-hmm. And I'm grateful to have had that experience, even though it was awful. And I was like, I think like five or six months postpartum. You were very recently postpartum with your firstborn. Yeah. I think I was on leave and then you were. It was horrible. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So anyway, um, but I don't, I didn't want the staff, the staff didn't need to know, and I didn't want them to know how deeply challenging that was, because that's not, um, the role of leadership is to take that off of them. So anyway, I'm like waxing poetic on this. But, um, that's, that's kind of the first thing that comes to mind of is like the thanklessness, like the quiet. It's quiet because you're not, you're not drawing attention to it. And we, and we really don't want it to be, that's not like the kind of leadership mm-hmm. That we are practicing or interested in, or that I feel is effective. Yeah. There's like two, um, I was thinking about as you were talking, there was like a few sort of thoughts that were coming up for me. You know, one is, did you ever see the movie, I think Strange World is what it's called, but it's a, like Disney. Disney or Pixar. I never, I know they're distinct, but they, you know, animated film. Either Strange Planet or Strange World. And it's about this like, um, it sort of doesn't matter, but ultimately this, um, the, like the main character, Tim and his son and then his father, it's sort of this generational thing. It's, it's, it's cute. It's really, I, I like the movie actually a lot, but they're inside this strange world and they're trying to get through to the mountains on the other side. And I'm gonna spoil this for everybody listening. Sorry if you haven't seen it. But ultimately they are living inside the system of a giant turtle, like giant, giant turtle. I love turtles. I dunno if you know that. I love turtles. Turtle's. Why you love it? That's why you love it. Turtle. That's probably why you love turtles. But, um, everything that they are experiencing is the, it's the, it's the organ, it's all the systems. It's all the little pieces inside the turtle, like living, like they go through the stomach and there's this like acid lake that they have to cross through, you know, the stomach acid. And anyway, there are these little, um. I forget what they're called, but the, they're these little things that come after there's like a mess. Let's say, um, there's a, something gets destroyed. These little bronch osa looking creatures come walking and then they drop off these like yellow, tiny balls. And what happens is that everything that was destroyed like gets regenerated from these yellow, tiny balls. And the thing about it is that you don't really see them if there's not a problem. And I think about like, oh, there's this function in this system that is, well, one restarting the heart. 'cause that's the whole thing with the turtle. It's like they're destroying the turtle by what, how they're living in their little city. And anyway, it doesn't matter. But they are walking along after the fact, these Bronchi source type things, dropping these tiny little yellow glowing balls that help to restore the balance and like keep things healthy and running. I think that that is, like the scene that was coming up for me when thinking about leadership is like, there's something about it where it's, it's um, I don't wanna say cleanup 'cause I don't think it's just cleanup, but I think there's something about it that is quiet and happens sometimes in response to a mess. And it seems really seamless. It can seem really seamless. But then also if I, if I step like back from that further, I think that some people probably think about leadership as in, well I'm in charge, so listen to what I say. Fair. Like that's an approach to leadership. That's not something that I'm really interested in. But I think there's another approach to leadership for me, and this is where the quiet labor really lives and like where I mostly feel it, I feel beholden to the people I am responsible for, I feel like a sense of, of appropriate responsibility for my employees. Like it's my job, it's leadership job, excuse me, to ensure that the systems are smooth. That the felt experience being here is overall good. That you feel supported, that you feel relatively seen, that you feel cared for to the extent, you know, I mean, it's not family. I don't, I don't think that, I don't really think of my employees as family, but I do, there's like a distinct caring for them that is different from let's just say the general public or like, you know, strangers or something. There's, there, there's a sense of like, these are my, not kinfolk, but like these are my people, these are my people. You know, not sense responsibility. Yes. Yeah. It feels responsible. Mm-hmm. And I think that that piece. Um, when there are hiccups, when there's shit that goes wrong, when there's, um, strain on any system, I do feel like leadership role is to contain it and like filter through any message that's going out. Like this the intensity of this need not be felt by the people around me. They might have a sense, like, we might say, Hey, this is happening, but I, I feel like the sort of the quiet labor, you know, piece is softening any like, blow that might hit them. Yeah. We're, we're protecting the vibe. Yes. I mean, like yeah, we're protecting the vibe. Yeah. It feels protective and not in a way like, um, you don't need to know anything that No, no, no. Don't look over here. Mm-hmm. But more like, if I say, um, I'm, I'm thinking let's just do finances 'cause it's easy. Yes. You know, end of the year is always hard, but if it's like. There's financial strain and, um, we can't do a bonus. I'm gonna say, Hey, we can't do a bonus. You know, it's been a, it's been a rough couple of months for these reasons. Here's what we're doing to rectify the issue. Here's what we're working on, et cetera. There's, this is not problematic long term. Like, we're seeking to solve this for good. They're not going to feel the vice grip in my chest. They're not going to feel the pit in my stomach that's not theirs to own. Like, so that to me feels like part of the labor piece, which is like, I need to make sure this is good for everybody involved because you, you and I both know, like, this business is mine. Sure. But it's not, it's not me. It's not just me. There is a multitude of people who make up the practice and we're, you know, we're all part of this. We're all in this together. Yeah. Like where, um, everyone feels an impact from Yeah. What is happening within the business. The extent to which that impact is felt is different based on your involvement in the organization. Um, and I think it should be, like, I do think that the impact should be felt more acutely by leadership. And I mean, obviously as a business owner, you are going to be the person feeling it most acutely. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and so I think our, our role is to be cognizant of how things are going to impact staff, um, and to try and mitigate that impact as much as possible without flipping completely to like the smoke. And like, do not look at the man button behind the curtain. Yeah. Everything's great. Everything's great. Yeah. We're not doing a bonus. Don't worry about it. Because that's gonna, because that's gonna, like, that's a great example that ero roads trust. It erodes trust. People are gonna be like, why, why aren't we keeping So you, you're, you're keeping the money for yourself, so they're gonna like, assume, you know, like, um, people, I, I, I'm actually curious what your thought is about this. I, um. Think that most people tend to assume the worst, like even in like positive relationships. Maybe that's, maybe I'm just projecting. Maybe that's a me thing. Maybe that's just me. Yeah. Um, but I do think people tend to maybe in a workplace setting, especially because I think most of us, I've said this before, um, most of us I think come from workplaces where we were not cared for by those in leadership positions. Um, I don't, you, you always seem surprised when I say this, but I wouldn't mm-hmm wager to say that most people listening to this podcast, most people in general, um, have not felt like cared for by those in leadership. And probably are there for more primed to assume the worst in leadership. Um. And all of that to say is, if you're telling me we've had a bonus and all of a sudden we're not having a bonus, I'm gonna assume other, either something's really wrong and if you're not telling me about it, then it like, must be really fucking bad. Mm-hmm. Or, um, I might assume like, oh, okay, you just, you're being stingy with your money. Mm-hmm. Um, I don't know that people are necessarily, and again, this could just be me, but I don't know if they're necessarily gonna jump to, um, there's a lot of thought behind leadership's decisions and I'm sure, you know, I'm sure there's some good reasons why that might, that's probably not gonna be first. First Yeah. Thought and it mm-hmm. They shouldn't have to wonder, like, we shouldn't, we shouldn't leave people in a place of having to wonder, this is a change. Why, why is the change now? Do we owe it to people to completely peel back the curtain and say, mm-hmm here's our financial report and here here's why. Right. That's not gonna happen. You can see here, you can see here that this dollar amount is not where we, like, that's not, people don't need to know that and shouldn't, shouldn't know that. Mm-hmm. Like, there's levels of, again, it's like parenting, like there's levels of Yeah. Transparency. Yeah. There's levels of transparency. Um, so, so yeah, that's what came up for me. I, um, I don't, okay, let me think about this. I don't know if, I think that people assume the worst, but I think that people have any variety of feelings related responses. And so I think that it, for me, it's, you know, I'm, I'm just such a, I, I'm, I feel like I'm just a very feelings oriented. I swim in my feel, you know, I swim in feelings, period. Like, that's like, that's my primary language, or like my first language is like feelings. You know? I think we all do. You're just more honest about it. Yeah. No, I agree with you. Actually, I, that's why I think that like, whenever I, let's say I go to share a message like that, I'm not thinking people are going to assume the worst. I'm thinking people might be afraid, they might have a little bit of fear about this. They might be suspicious, they might not feel safe. They might like accept like, okay, cool, it's a bonus. Like it may hit or it may not. And so when I'm respon, like, but it doesn't feel like, um, it doesn't feel like a almost like a, I'm not coding the thing that they're doing, it just feels like they're gonna have a reaction to it. And that's okay. I would have a reaction if I was on the receiving end. And so my thought in like how I relay the message is that I'm also kind of proactively trying to speak to the feelings in advance because I assume that they will happen. I assume they're gonna have some. And so it doesn't really feel like it, I think it doesn't really feel like, um, assuming anything, it just feels like accepting that people are gonna have feelings and then yeah, kind of trying in advance to speak to them. But what I will say is this, if there is enough of an established relationship and then somebody's response is a lot of mistrust, that is where I'm like a mildly concerned, where it's like in our, the entirety of our relationship, we've only had a relatively safe, like it's been psychologically safe. Like we've had hard conversations. There's been follow through consistently there. I, what I thought was, you know, a high level of trust established between us, and then the response, like, I'm, I'm still being open and sharing like, hey, this is what's happening and this is why, and the response is mistrust. That's where I'm like, that gives me pause. I'll just say that. And it doesn't even feel like they're assuming the worst. It feels like there's something going on. There's something that maybe I haven't quite labeled or figured out yet, or something I don't understand, or maybe my perception of the relationship is different than what it is. Or maybe their like temperament and like their tendencies are different than what I thought. So, but, yeah, I don't, I don't, I don't think that, I think that language, I'm not saying that I'm. I think fucking Mother Theresa or something, but I, no, I think I really appreciate, I actually really appreciate that reframe. Um, 'cause I think that is a more, um, probably both generous and accurate, honestly, um, interpretation of. If there's a reaction, this is, you're being, you're just being more curious. I like how you said you're not coding it as anything. Um, whereas I, I am making assumptions. Um, and I think that is reflective of the very different paths to this place that we have taken. Mm-hmm. Um, and probably me coming from a lot of experiences where not only it was, it was very negative leadership experiences. Yeah. Like it, I wouldn't even say neutral. I would say predominantly negative. That sucks, man. That sucks. Predominantly. Yeah. Yeah, it does. Yeah. Especially. Mm-hmm. I mean, especially knowing that my work experience is in the, like, people field, like I've been in this field, it's not like I, you know, I'm talking about like working at McDonald's. Um, that to me though, like also I'm, so, I think I just cut you off, but that, like, for leadership stuff, I think that is also the, like thinking about quiet labor. It's. You're, you have to, it's you. Yeah. You're, you're, as you are a part of leadership, I, I am leadership. Like, however I show up, however I process things, whatever feelings I have that's me, like it's gonna either bleed out or it's going like, I mean like trickle down, I should say. Mm-hmm. It's gonna like be explicit or it might be implicit. Like there's something about I cannot remove myself from leadership in the exact same way as doing clinical work. Like, I can't remove myself from the therapist in the chair. Like, that is me. And I might present, you know, the amount of space I give, the types of questions I ask, the things I share might be a little bit different. But my whole perception of life, like my own theory of the, the world and of people is it's all right there, you know? Yeah. So I'm, I'm thinking like quiet labor wise, it's like if you, all of your clinicians or all of your employees are unhappy, you probably need to reflect inward rather than like externalize. Do you know what I mean? Like I think that Yeah, yeah, yeah. Feel, well that's, that's just, that's like a meta, a meta level of this question of like the quiet, the quiet labor or the quiet work of leadership is also like, it's, it's, um, it's reflective of the work that you should be doing as a clinician. Mm-hmm. The work you should be doing as a parent, as a human of, um, yeah. It's every, it's all the same. Yeah. Like, what's showing up for me? What am I bringing into this? Um, you know, and I feel like we, we have conversations about that like in real time, like if we're an issue is coming up, um, let's say it's a people issue or even like, like this morning in, in mm-hmm. L10 with the, the marketing calendar. Like I started to have like a reaction. Oh yeah. I didn't even notice. Yeah. I was like, I dunno, because it was fleeting. No, I was like, I felt it coming up and I was like, oh, I'm noticing like, this is it. This is mine. Like something is coming up here. Mm-hmm. Um. What was it? Was it panic or was it frustration or? Yeah, I think I was feeling, um, it like shows up. Honestly, my reaction almost always shows up as annoyance. Like my, it's like the first thing. Oh yeah, I feel really annoyed. 'cause you realize you were like, um, so funny. I feel, I feel some resistance to that and like, we don't like, oh yeah, do we have like a deadline or whatever? And I'm sitting here going like, we just fucking talked about having deadlines. Like you were like, you wanted to get it set in stone and now you're, yeah. Yeah. And so, yeah. I so think it was for me it was like, well, what the fuck are we doing Then? I thought, so funny thought, I thought we did this. Okay. So I did clock that though. When I shared, I was like, I feel a little bit reticent about this. There was a to two item for my DCO to follow up with our team about something specific with regard to professional development. And I was like, I feel a little bit reticent about this for these reasons. And I did clock like, Taylor's a annoyed with me, but you know, that's okay. Like, we'll get through this. It's okay. Yeah. And I had the thought of like, i'm annoyed and that's okay. Like that's, I'm, I'm allowed to be annoyed and also. I can be annoyed and work through this. Yeah. Um, so yeah, it's like that, that stuff still does come up. And, and oftentimes I think you're absolutely right that it's reflective of not something wrong in the process, not something wrong about what you're saying, but there not, not anything wrong at all. But there's something for me that's like coming up here, um, maybe related to like maybe feeling unsure, like feeling like maybe I thought I understood something. Yeah. And, and now I'm learning that I don't, and that makes me feel unsure or nervous or unsettled, you know? Yeah. It could be, it could be related to that, you know? Yeah. Really, that's for me, the sandcastle piece. It's like the, um, I think I've used this metaphor analogy. I never fucking know. It doesn't matter, but like, uh, you know, like building a sandcastle by the, by the, on the ocean, you sort of walk away or on, on a sandbar by the ocean or something, and I like leave and then I turn around and it's just demolished and I'm like, buck, I gotta build this again. And I sort of build the same one, but it, I. I don't, there's just things I don't remember. Like if it's not, yeah, there are things I don't remember. And so I think that's, that's really what happens is I'm like, well, wait, what? Hang on. Is this decided? And then I think it ends up being anxiety provoking for you a little bit or sort of like, well, fuck, did I miss something? And then it might, like you said, like a little bit of anxiety and then it sort of, um, maybe initially manifest as annoyance or frustration, like Yeah. That's so funny. Yeah. Well, and I think that's, that's also, I, I wonder if, is that maybe a Taylor and Tara thing, or is that like a vi dynamic where the visionary Oh, interesting. Visionary might be more prone to being less grounded in the details? Yes. In the, the integrator is maybe more of the like, historian, the keeper of the records of like, I love that, like we said, this thing uhhuh, let's, let's go back to this thing. And so, and so maybe my response, um, not should be, 'cause my response is what it is, but yeah, the, the, the response should be, or the solution is, um. Fact check. Go back to the record. That's my role. And it's okay for me to say, oh, actually, we, we did decide on the, like the last time we talked, like this is what the notes said. This is what we decided. Mm-hmm. Rather than being like, oh no, am I like missing something? Or I've forgotten something, you know, leaning more into that, oh, this is my role here is to, is to direct us back to this is what we've decided. Do we need to mm-hmm. Revisit that and have a different conversation? Or do you as the visionary just need my help grounding back into, oh, no, no. We actually did this already. Usually at that piece. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Funny too, is that the, the concept or the idea of sending out this, this email to the team without me sort of in integrating, like, no, we have decided on this calendar of events was anxiety provoking. For you? And that was my, yeah. Yeah. So it's funny too where it's like, I'm like, hang on a, hang on, hang on, hang on, hang on. You know, I, you know, if I like, feel anxious or it doesn't all feel like it's, uh, settled into place, I. Like, I'm gonna dig my heels in. Like, well, it's, it's, yeah. Slow down a sec. Yeah. It's that, it's that quiet work of recognizing, um, our emotional responses are like, you, you say all the time, like, feelings are data. It's like, this is mm-hmm. This, um, feeling is something, it's pointing me to something. So I need to like, investigate what that is. And so for you it was, you know, is this not feeling like this thing was solidified? Mm-hmm. And for me it was, oh, this thing was solidified, so let's get clarity. Yeah. What the hell, Tara? Yeah. Ultimately pointing us back to the same point of like, needing clarification around this thing. Yeah. Um, but that's, again, that's work, that's emotional. Mm-hmm. That's emotional work we're doing. I'll say one more thing about the quiet labor of leadership. Um, and then I wanna move on to another question. There was, fuck what you just said reminded me of this, ah, I wanted to say it earlier and I, we just kept talking and Oh, I know what it was. I think that another component to this like quiet labor piece is the sheer amount of time spent on something that looks simple on the outside. That to me is quiet labor. That's the shit that I love when I have the time, is to really like, dig into a project and spend, you know, hours uninterrupted trying to like comb through. Or it might take me months, like I, I've been working through externalizing my entire payroll process, but that also entails, um, it entails everything from like inception to completion. You know, the start of it and the end of it. What it is, who does it, how's tracked. All of those things have to get basically outside of my head and like in the right place. It's been literal months, months and months of talking about this and grappling and like going to chat and like, Hey, let me like talk through my process. Like help me make sense of how can I externalize these pieces and where can they live? Nobody is going to give a fuck. And also, I don't think anybody can have a like, felt sense of recognition about the amount of time that has been spent on this thing that I think when it's enacted, if we do that labor well, it looks seamless. It looks smooth. That is what I want. I want for from any, even like our clients coming in, but for our clinicians too, for our employees, I want the experience to look and feel clean. And I think to have it be clean, it requires a lot of. Whatever the, whatever the thing is, whether it's a process or a system or a workflow or, um, externalization of something or introduction of something or what, what the, however, you know, to have it look and feel clean requires a lot of intentionality on the front end. And I think that that is something that, and I don't, I'm gonna say this, I don't mean it like a martyr, like nobody knows the weight. I care this, this whole episode is not that at all. Like, this isn't about martyrdom, but I do think that nobody can see it because they're not, they're not in it. They don't fully understand, they don't fully get it. And I, yeah. So I agree. I think that's it. I agree. No, I agree. I agree. I think it's, um, I think it's, it's like, it's just acknowledgement of like, this work is difficult in a way that, um, that's different that not everyone, like not everyone is ever gonna experience what being in a leadership role looks like in this capacity. Um, and so it's like there's, there's actually a unique group of people who are experiencing this and get, and get it. And that is part of the challenge is that, that that pool of people can be really small. And so it can be kind of isolating at times to feel like, man, like I'm doing this work and no one really, people just don't, they don't see it fully. 'cause we all, mm-hmm. I think we all want to be seen and known. Um, and it's hard sometimes with this kind of work to be fully seen, um, by people who aren't also doing that work. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know if it's possible. And I think that's probably universal. I don't even think that's unique to our, um, I'm gonna say profession necessarily. I think Agree. It's probably just universal period. Yeah. Um, yeah. Okay. I'm gonna keep going. Not to abruptly change, but I think we have probably exhausted that question. Okay. So then second question. What is a moment where you realized leadership was heavier than you expected? For me, this comes down to some of the biggest challenges I feel like I've experienced are relational. Um, especially, and I think you can probably relate to this in like a little bit of a different way, but for me, starting as like when you're thinking about like your accountability chart, your org chart. Yeah. Like at the bottom, huge quotes, like, yeah, yeah, sure. I do not like that language, but like having no leadership. Kind of like, I'm just one of the people, man, you know, I'm just a worker. Yeah. Um, starting there and then slowly moving, quote unquote up to, into a position of leadership, um, I made a lot of, I, I formed and nurtured and grew a lot of relationships. And those relationships that I value really, really strongly, um, have shifted because I am now, I've gone in a place from being a peer or a colleague to some, some of my friends, to now being in a position of power over them. Mm-hmm. Which again, like let gross power, whatever, but truly like having, uh, maybe authority is a, is a, a cleaner word. Um, but like if you really boil it down, um, I have a direct say in employment. Yes. Or. People who I consider to be my friends. Mm-hmm. Um, that's, and it, and I, and I don't wanna, um, also paint a picture. Like this is something I'm very much in process about. Um, yeah. I, I don't feel like I've arrived or I feel like I am fully settled because, for example, I am in a book club outside of work with some of my peers, or I guess not peers anymore, but some people who are technically my employees. Mm-hmm. Um, so what does that look like? What does that, what does it look like to be in a position of, in one sphere of my life, being friends, sharing vulnerabilities about life with people I care really deeply about. And then being in a position in the workplace where I may have to discipline this person who is also my friend. Um, and that is a situation I have found myself in because I am the direct, I'm the direct report for someone who I consider a good friend, um, that is like, man, that's messy. It gets messy and it mm-hmm. It for me, like this is where I'm still in process of it come, what comes up for me is do I need to reevaluate that friendship? Do I need to pull back in that friendship? Do I need to create more distance? Um, so that there is a feeling more of a feeling of safety in the workplace because I would hate to, I would hate for an employee to feel like they're being treated unfairly or that mm-hmm. Um. Or to have, have unrealistic expectations of our dynamic at work because we have a prior friendship. Yes. Like this work is like, it's messy. It's, it's really messy. Just work like to have relationships and work with people. People are messy, relationships are messy. And then you add on this layer of, um, I like you a lot, I'm friends with you. We started as friends and now like things have changed to where there's this new dynamic in our relationship. Um, I didn't expect that. I didn't expect to be in this position where, um, maybe I'm out with drinks for some friend with some of my friends and they wanna bring up a work, something they're venting about work. That puts me in a really fucking awkward position because I'm your friend, but I'm also the direct report of this person that you're frustrated about. Yeah. So what do I do? Do I, you know, um, it's recuse yourself from the conversation. Right. And so that is honestly, that's kind of the boundary that I've, that I've put in place for myself and been clear with my friends about like, when we are in a social setting, I'm not gonna engage about work related things. And in fact, I'm gonna ask that we try to shy away from those things, or I might have to either change the subject or take a bathroom break mm-hmm. While you finish. Mm-hmm. You know? 'cause I think it's fair. It's not fair to say like, you can't talk about this thing. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. That's ridiculous. Uhhuh work is such a big part of our lives. Mm-hmm. Um, and it's really healthy to blow off steam and to be able to express like, this Joe at work is really fucking annoying me. He did this thing. Mm-hmm. Let me, let me tell you what Joe did. You know? Yeah. It's like, well, I like the tea. I wanna know what Joe did. Yeah. Yeah. And also, but is this gonna impact? I should talk, yeah. Is this gonna impact my ability to also go back to work on Monday and be Joe's supervisor? Right. Um, so that's, that's like, for me, that's the most, that's been the most challenging and I like hope that it never comes to fruition, but I dread the day where I may be in a position of having to engage in some disciplinary action with someone. Mm-hmm. I consider a friend. Mm-hmm. Yes. Um, yeah. I always think about, it's so funny to me 'cause I didn't love reading Radical Candor, but I really like listening to Kim Scott talk. I really like the episodes I have listened to of her podcast. And, um, I just, I like the speed with which she dissects things and the way she talks about things. And I just remember maybe in the story or in the book when I did try to read it, it was, there was a story about this, like having a, I think, or maybe it was a podcast episode, I don't remember the details, but there was something about this like being friends with a colleague, but also you are there. Boss effectively, like she could fire this person. And I think it came down to that. She had to, and it was, again, I, either her story or someone else's. I don't even remember the details honestly, but it was something about that, like along those lines. I think that that is probably not exactly the same for me because it started with me being the one employing people. Um, what I will say is that, what's a moment when I realized leadership was heavier than expected? I mean, I feel like that's just all the time. I don't, I don't know. I don't know if there's like any one moment. I think that, Hmm. Can I offer a thought? Yeah, go ahead. Yeah, I'm, I'm honestly thinking about like COVID and, oh, Jesus. Yeah. Like, just, yeah. The weight that you had to carry of mm-hmm. Of being impacted by this thing, of being the person liable and in charge of this business of people's livelihoods. Mm-hmm. Just the like, um, ironically, like, I, I didn't know you then, but just hearing, hearing your experience of like how fucking stressful that I, so I don't know if that's Yeah, that's, that's what, that was a thought that came up to me for like, maybe something that was challenging for you. Yeah. I think that it's like, um, yeah, that was especially, that was, I mean, that was, it was horrible. It was especially hard, but I think there's something about like, um, that was an intensified version of something that always exists, you know what I mean? Where it's like, holy shit, like, yeah. You know, I think about like a, a pencil, you're poking a pencil through a balloon that's not blown up. You're like poking, poking, poking. And at some point, like, it can stretch pretty fucking far, even with a pencil. 'cause it's not a blown up balloon, it's just, what is it, latex or whatever it's made of. So you're just poking, poking. It felt like that shit was about to, we were about to get a big fucking hole and we didn't, you know, and so everything, you know, obviously is fine. Quote, fine, it sits then. But I mean, it's, you know, the evolution of the practice, we've continued to grow and evolve and all that. But that feeling of the pencil and the latex balloon, that's not blown up. That's always, I think it, it has always been there and it is still always there. Not with the same level of intensity as like the COVID moments, for example. I would say this year has been really hard. It's been especially hard with regard to hiring and finances and a couple of clinicians on leave, and not that it's not turning because it has been sort of shifting and things have been moving in the right direction. And still it's the, the pencil with the balloon. I, I don't know. I feel like, um, the joke in my family, like with my husband, honestly, my family of origin too, I will do what I need to do. Like I'm just gonna do whatever I need to get done or whatever I want to get done, no matter how heavy the haul is. And so if I want something moved. Like in the house, for example, and nobody's there to help me, I'm gonna get it fucking moved, like I'm gonna do it. So my family jokingly would call me Shera. 'cause I'm, I'm like, you know, and the joke with my husband and I is, I'm, I'm a pack mule. Like, I don't, I will. And I think that those are like physical manifestations of sort of an ex, an internal experience too, or like a physical, you know, it's like Shera or a pack mule is like, yeah, I'll carry a lot of shit for a long time. And so, um, carrying the load I think is also just part of the quiet labor, honestly. So I, I don't even, I don't mean to just keep circling back where it's like, I don't, I don't know if there was a moment where it felt heavier. I think sometimes when it gets reflected back to me is when I'm like, oh fuck that is heavy. Is when I like, can see it, you know, like in real time. I remember our DCO now, this is way back when we tried EOS for the first time. I, this, I'm not gonna tell the whole story, but it did not go well. That's all that I'll say. There were three people plus myself. So four of us on the leadership team total. I implemented it in the wrong way. Taylor wasn't even at the practice yet. So there was no future integrator with me, you know? And, um, my now director of clinical ops was actually kind of an office manager and doing like leadership team, like in an administrative operational capacity, but also doing therapy. It was just, it was messy, let's just say that. And so she had started to do something. So my now DCO, her name is Molly. Molly was like doing something for me, like leadership related. And she did some training or something, met with me individually after and said like, I did not realize how much you were doing, or I didn't realize how much this was, or something to that extent. And I was like, whoa. Like. Wow. Thanks. Like I, I, yeah, it is heavy, but I don't even, like, as I'm going, I'm not even like actively thinking about it 'cause I'm being a fucking pack mule. I'm just carrying what needs to be carried to the location that we're going to. And so I, I feel like that's, I'm not trying to cop out of the answer, but I think it's just such a, I, I don't know. Like I, I feel like a lot of my life too has been like, I carry heavy, I carry shit. I just carry shit and it's fine. And I'll do it on my own if I need to. And I'll I was just gonna say like, this is, this is family of origin. Yeah. I mean it's just like Yeah, this is, yeah. It's fine. The roles, yeah. The roles we were placed in. Yeah. Carry what I need to for however long I need to figure it the fuck out. Bear the emotional weight. Like I'm, I can handle it. I think that's probably why I love emotion so much. Fine. Like, I'm not gonna be phased by other people, some, you know. And so, um, with some exceptions, I would say contempt is something that really ruffles my fucking feathers. But that aside, I think it's always heavy and there are moments where it's heavier than others, but I'm not sure that, um, lonely is definitely a feeling throughout the entire experience. I don't think I realized the extent to which I would feel. Yeah. Lonely. Especially with the, the quiet labor piece. When I, when I really started to like grapple with, there's a lot of quiet labor and like a, a lack of, um, I don't wanna say recognition, like I need you to see what I'm doing, but like a lack of realization at the amount of labor and like effort and work and intentionality that goes into stuff, that was really lonely. And then, um, that has like. Kind of shifted probably. 'cause I have a leadership team probably 'cause I have people to like share this with. But it's like lonely is really the word that comes to mind. And like, and carrying the heavy stuff. But also I'm not gonna set it down because I want, I want the thing built in the way that I want it built. And so if it's me doing this thing, like this heavy lifting, so fucking be it. Like this is the thing that I want to be built and how I want it to feel for people. And then as they step in, they do carry a load as well. Like I think the culture of the practice. Sure. Maybe the, the ultimate responsibility is, is on leadership and maybe on visionary and then trickles down to integrator. But every single person at the practice carries a load related to culture. They carry a load related to their role. And so I think, I think there's something about like, even though my load remains heavy and I think leadership load remains kind of heavy as we're going, I feel like there's also disbursement to the right places. And some of what, some of what maybe used to carry actually gets passed off and then something new might come into its place. And I don't know where I'm going with that. So I think that I'm done. Well, let me, let me wrap it up for you. Do it. Thanks. Um, and a pretty bow Yeah. Package. So what this, what this made me think of is in the office when, um, Jim and Michael are both managers and Michael's like, I usually have to do this on my own. Like it's like this, it's funny. Mm-hmm. But it 'cause they're like hiding in his office drinking and it's like, don't they start drinking at like scotch or bourbon or something like Yeah. Yeah. Something. Um. And, and it's like a stressful situation. And Jim's kind of like, why are you laughing? Or like, why are you smiling? And he is like, it's just really nice. 'cause I usually have, I always have to do this part on my own. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and that's, and that's like, that's part of maybe what you're talking about too, is like, um, sharing it, it's, yeah, it's sharing, it's sharing now. Um, it's like we have to have like kind of hard conversations at times and like different things are difficult or carry weight, but we also, we're not alone. Have each other. Yeah, we do. It's you and Molly. Like, it's like, yep. Oh, we got, I really wanna, like, we'll sometimes we'll say like, oh, I don't wanna talk about this thing. Yeah. But we got to, we got it. Yes. We gotta, and it's nice to be able to like, at least, you know, maybe go to, go to a team member, say something to the team that, you know, is gonna maybe like be hard to hear and know that it's like, well, Tara and Molly have got my back. Like, we're, yeah, we're in this together. And there's also the go ahead. No, no, you can finish your thought. Um, there, I was gonna say, it's also like, um, an added layer of like, we made this decision together. Like, I know, I feel, I can feel a sense of like, confidence, um, even though this may be a difficult decision or it may be hard for someone to hear, I, I have a, a higher level or a deeper sense of confidence because we talked through all of the potential pros and cons, the pitfalls, like, um, we did that together emotion rather than it just being emotionality too. Yeah. Rather than it just being here with me. Yes. Yeah. That is probably the most, one of the most powerful for me, pieces in all of this is, um, you know, I'm like a bat. Like I need, I like legitimately need feedback to, to find myself in time and space. Like, I, I, I, it's like I, I have to use echolocation to make sense of where I am, including with structures. Like, it's like I need to ping off other people and I, I need to, um. I, I shouldn't say need, but I feel much more grounded when I have a trusted source or like a trusted, you know, you and Molly both, I think trusted group of people that I can go to and say either, here's the situation, here's what I'm thinking. Here's what I'm feeling. Am I fucking crazy? Like, what am I missing? What do you all think? Well, here's what I'm thinking. What do you think about the solution? What, what's it gonna bring up? I mean, that has been probably the most impactful in terms of decreasing the heaviness. And there still is things that are unique to carry. I think for myself, for each of our roles in leadership in general, but like the weight of responsibility for making every single decision and the impact on the entire structure as well as all of the people that being shared is just such a profound relief. That's such a, it's an incredible relief. Yeah. Okay. Anything else that you wanna add to this? No. Mm-hmm. All right, let's keep going. Okay, question three then. Um, I wanna see where this question goes. What patterns do you watch for in the practice that inform your decisions, even if no one else notices them? That's interesting. I have thoughts. I have immediate thoughts. I don't even know if I'm like I do too. I wanna hear your thoughts 'cause I think we might. I am. I, my inclination is that it's the same thought and I wanna, I'm like gonna write down my answer and see if it's, if it is what I think hold it up when I'm done. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I actually, I literally am, I literally am. That's funny. Okay, I'll wait. I'll give you a second. We'll fast skip this or uh, get this outta the recording. So. No, we won't. I'll probably leave it in. What patterns do you watch for in the practice that inform your decisions, even if no one else notices them? Okay, I'm gonna go, are you ready? Ready. I'm not sure how to say this, but there it, emotional patterns, like I'm, I'm always feel like I am wanting to be tuned in with how people are doing and when there are things that are out of character or a little bit like outside the norm, I feel like I get a spike of, wait a sec, what's that? Like? Huh, hang on. But what, tell me about this. Like, what happened? Okay. Are they good? Uh, it it like, there's a sense of like a little prairie dog, like popping up and like looking around and like scanning. I feel like I end up scanning for threats and scanning the environment and trying to figure out what's going on. Is this, what's the thing that's happening? And I think, what do I think? I think there's something about like if something outside the baseline happens, it may not be anything, so that's fine. But I always wanna know like the emotional undertone of that thing happening. So this person is canceling all their sessions for two weeks in a row, like hang the fuck on. Like, are they okay? What's going on? Do we have context? It feels like I want context and I also wanna make sure that person is okay. Like, are they okay? What do they need from us, if anything? Can we be supportive? Is this something that is associated with what we are doing? Is it related to something at the practice or is it like life circumstance that's coming over and you know, and showing up, in terms of how they're doing their clinical work or maybe their schedule, you know. So I feel like the patterns are really like maybe shifts in baseline with regard to people. And then also like the emotional tone, which is harder to stay connected to as I am more and more in visionary. And that's a, that's a separate conversation, a little bit of a separate issue. What do you think? Is that what you were thinking? Big reveal? You can't see very well, what does it say? But it says reactions of staff slash emotionality of staff. Yeah. Um, That is so funny. Wait, those are yours too? Or you were guessing mine. Yeah. Of both. Both. I, that's what I thought. And I thought that you were, I knew that's exactly what you were gonna say. Yes. Always. Yeah. Um, yeah. 'cause it really is like, if we had, like, if we had to boil everything down to one theme of everything we talk about, or what this really ultimately comes down to is, um. Emotions are fact, emotions are data. Mm-hmm. If there's something coming up, like I think back to, um, I had a biannual scheduled with one of my staff members, and we, we have them do a survey ahead of time. I was reading through their survey responses and it was off, like, it was like very short. Like this person is not like a short person in terms of like their responses. Um, it was like very short. The, the numbers were lower than I expected that in terms of like satisfaction scores, I feel like I keep a good pulse on like how people are feeling. And we worked really hard to create a culture where people can share with us when they, they're not happy or if they have feedback. And so I was surprised by some of the responses. And so when it came time for, I mean, I was reviewing this like right before I hopped on the meeting with them, and so I hopped in and I, one immediately could tell that their demeanor was not, was atypical for them. And I just said like. What's up? Like, I noticed, I saw, I reviewed your survey responses, seems like something's up, like, what's going on? And immediately this person was like, I'm not doing well. I am not in a good place. Yeah. Like, um, both, both feelings. Like some work overwhelm, but like a lot of personal life. Like it's a hard fucking world to be in right now. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And like, that's another like, talk about like heaviness that we as leadership carry. Like we also have to carry this acknowledgement that like our people are not living in a vacuum. Like Yeah. One, the work that we're doing is inherently difficult, like holding emotional space for other people and oftentimes, um, having to like, this is like very social worky of me, but like bear witness to the, the trauma, the struggle, the pain, um, of other people as a heavy mm-hmm, incredibly beautiful, meaningful, but heavy thing. And they're doing this in the context of like, this, this, they might be doing it for themselves too. This world that we're living in, that like right now, at this point in time, no matter what end of the spectrum you're on, is emotionally very intense. Um, there's a lot happening. Um, and so all of that to say, yeah, like that was literally like I, those, those data points for me mm-hmm. Were pointing to something's off, um, with this person. So we ended up rescheduling and not doing the biannual because like, you're not, like you are not well. Mm-hmm. Like, let's, let's talk about what you need here and then we can get back to the biannual another time. Yeah. Fast forward, we redid it like a month and some change later and like scores were completely different. Mm-hmm. Answers were completely different. We had a really fruitful conversation with some, um, like really good feedback about some processes, you know. In our operations team. So, yeah. So yeah, I agree. Um, I agree. I think it is absolutely the patterns. The patterns are like the people and what the mm-hmm. What's going on with our people. Yeah. I think there's something too, and this is, I know you know this Taylor, but I feel like clarification for anybody listening who might be just wondering about this, seeing patterns in the team and like responding to emotionality within the team, I feel like we do this really effectively because we bring on the right people. So our hiring process is thorough and I'm pumped. I, as I'm carving out more time for myself, I, I already, I, I just wanna make some tweaks. I'm really excited about that. Um, and it still is good as it is. It still is good. And so when we bring people on it, it's a pretty like , they're pretty much vetted by the point that they actually start with us in terms of culture, in terms of like, um, clinical quality or even, you know, even if they're not seasoned like coachability to do good, you know, quality clinical work, excuse me, or it's operations related. Of course, that's a different, um, kind of a skills assessment. But my point is that because we have the right people in the right seats for like across the board, I would say globally the norm, it'd be an an anomaly is to not have the right person in the right seat. The norm is right people in the right seat. Because of that, I trust the emotionality of my team. If I had a bunch of people that were working for me that I didn't have good relationships with, I hired anybody who applied. I didn't have like core values that were lived and sort of grounded in everything we're doing. I might not be as responsive to the feedback, the, although I will say I probably would try to look at like global feedback I was getting and if, you know, multiple people are like, it doesn't feel safe here, I would really like wanna work to like making it feel safe, for example, you know, but if, if, if there was a bunch of people where I was like, they're not even really a fit here and they work for me and they were te coming to me telling me how upset or distressed or just dissatisfied they were. I might, I, I mean, in an ideal world, the outcome would be that they are not employed for much longer at the practice because of not being the right person. Not because they're awful, but like a right person for your group. So I think I just wanna like say a caveat, which is like the trust that we have and the feedback we get from people is based on the team that we have. Like our team truly is incredible. I really adore our team. I think that they are really great and that what has been built, you know, what we've built, what has been built is really great structure wise and people wise. And, um, just because there is some emotionality that comes our way, like Taylor is saying, it's data. It's not a pivotal point where we respond and fix whatever the emotion is. Some things have to remain as they are. Um, some things aren't fixable. Like there's some things I can't do, uh, whether financially or functionally and structurally, like, it's just not, that doesn't make any sense to do this. And so it's not like every time there's negative feedback. Or, or um, some sort of like spike in emotionality or like a pattern shift, that doesn't immediately equal that we're changing something up. We might assess. I think that that's pretty like standard, which is okay, so this is the process that's baked into, is there anything that's off here? No. Okay. I think it might just be a person thing right now, like let's process with that person a little further and like that might be the next step. But because of the high trust in my team, any emotional spikes or shifts or any feedback we get, we do take seriously. It's important to me. I think it's important to leadership period. And if we had a team that was made up of people who, I don't know, maybe I don't have as much trust or it's just not as quality, I might respond differently. I think leadership in general might respond differently. I agree. Yeah. Yeah. Cool. Do you wanna keep going or you have anything else you wanna add there? No, I don't have anything else. Yeah. Okay. Are we gonna have to, like, is NBC gonna come after us? For how much for like, how often and how much we reference the office? Oh my God. I fucking hope not. Only when we start playing clips as we're going. We're gonna get, we're gonna get cease and desist. Oh, that's so funny. Um, okay, so next question we're moving on. What is the emotional work underneath LMA that no one teaches you? Hmm. LMA for those who don't know, is a formula from EOS in the EOS world, from traction, it is leadership plus management equals accountability. In essence, applying leadership principles and management principles and behaviors gets you accountability without you having to like force somebody's feet to the fire, you know? So what is the emotional work underneath LMA that no one teaches you? LMA is big. I'm a, I'm really interested to hear your answer because, well, A, I like what you have to say broadly speaking and B, I just am, I wanna know, we've been talking about LMA lately and so I'm curious what's coming up for you? Um, so I don't know if this is gonna be ex exactly because I'm gonna be a little bit pedantic here. Um, and say like, I think. Maybe no one's taught me explicitly. Sure. Um, but I think that like we, we are like, we are taught everything, like everything, um, like is taught to us, whether that be like explicitly from a person or like, like Oh yeah. Life experiences, you know, whatever. Um, so I'm thinking about like, um, in terms of like the emotional work or the, go ahead. I'm sorry. Yeah. I'm just thinking like form, like formally like being taught my, um, my master's focus is PO was policy planning and administration. Mm-hmm. So very leadership in nature. Um, but the focus of the things I was formally taught was much more about structures, um, like vaguely styles of leadership. Hmm. Um. But more like how to, like, how to do things. Yes. How to create, like how to create a business plan, how to create a budget for an organization. Um, like those kinds of things. The emotional piece really wasn't explicitly taught, um, in terms of my, like formal education, my formal preparation for this kind of role. Um, what I didn't, this is, um, this is maybe like melding a couple of maybe a question from earlier, but like, what I didn't expect was how much my, um, my personal journey in therapy, um, would inform on how I approach leadership in the, especially the emotional aspect of, um, like the emotional work of LMA, but also like. You, um, have taught me a lot. Um, so that's why I'm like a little bit reticent to say. Like, what? Like, I don't know. I, I'm, I think I'm maybe jumbling up the question, but like, what didn't you, what didn't they teach you? Oh. What's the emotional work underneath el LA that Yeah. That no one teaches you? Yeah. Um, I feel maybe a little bit spoiled because I feel like you have taught me, I feel like I've learned a lot from you about the emotional work. Um, but maybe when I, coming into it thinking about like, I think just acknowledging that there is so much emotional work, like that wasn't taught, I did not expect mm-hmm. That I did not expect that, um, I did not expect. I on brick of record, I did not expect that. Yeah, yeah. No, I get it. I did not expect that. I really didn't expect it though. I, I didn't. Yeah. And so early on in my experiences of LMA with you, like in, what I mean by that is early on in my experiences of doing LMA and being Yeah. Having your own direct reports mentor. Yeah. Yeah. It's being mentored by you or directed have you doing LMA with me, um, when experiencing challenges, almost always were there was some level of emotionality. I think part of the reason why that's like such a theme for us is, again, because we live in emotion, emotion mm-hmm is often either the root of the problem or such a big like flag post mm-hmm. Of like, Hey, look over here, there's something not working. Yeah. Um, and so you, instead of me being, um, I'm very by nature, very solutions focused, very like intellectualizing. Um, hence why my therapy journey has been so impactful, because I tend to stay so much in my, like, thought and my therapist is like, yeah, yeah, yeah. But like, what do you feel? Yeah, yeah. Where is it in your body? Yeah. Um, Is is, you kind of pointing me away from like, well before you jump into the solutions here, what's going on? Like, have you asked this person like, why this thing? Or like, I, I can hear you saying like, I'm curious about what's coming up for that person, or vice versa. Like, I'm curious what's coming up for you. Mm-hmm. And so rather talking about maybe the specific challenge at hand. Um, oh, like thinking about like, um, that client of Emily's Oh, yeah, yeah. A long time ago. Mm-hmm. You know exactly what I'm talking about. Mm-hmm. Such a significant level of emotionality coming up, and that was super triggering for me. Mm-hmm. Honestly, it was less about how do we solve this problem? That part ended up being relatively easy. Mm-hmm. But it was dealing with like, what is coming up for you? What's getting in the way of getting to that solution? Um, that's the part that you've, you've taught me a lot about that I didn't expect coming into leadership again is like doing that emotional work or understanding, I think what a key role, what a central role, um, emotionality is in LMA and the leadership of people and the management of people. Um, and in, I'm thinking about like own your shit, both in owning my shit and also helping others to feel safe and vulnerable to be able to own their shit. Yeah. Yeah. I love this because I think that, I forget the exact language you used, but, um, sort of this notion that emotions are, um, kind of a major factor in a lot of, uh, examples or circumstances. I would say in all of them, like anytime there is a response, whether it looks like defensiveness or someone's asking like questions and it's like they have a lot of them, or someone seems a little short in their email, like for me, em, emotions are the driver for behaviors. Like, and so it's not an option that they're not at play and it's not an option that they're not first. And if there's, um, stability and like a regulation and emotional, psychological safety, you know, which of course we can help create at a practice, then it allows for solutions and like implementing solutions and also getting input from people around you for solutions that are realistic and doable and sustainable. All of that is, is, it feels simple. It's like all of that is like, well, yeah, there's a problem. Here's a solution, boom, done. But that nobody gives a fuck. Like, that's so, so easy. Like easy problem solution. Mm-hmm. Yeah. That's the easy part. Yeah. The part that I think doesn't, maybe I, I, I hope that gets talked about in leadership trainings now, or I, I don't, I don't actually know. I think that the emotional work underneath LMA is that it for me it permeates every single thing. My relationship with this person, not only their emotionality, but also my own. So I have to know myself and I need to be tuned in with this person next to me. And also I think to such an extent that if they're having some sort of reaction. I'm not going to react to it. I'm going to like bear witness and help make sense of it. And if I'm having a reaction, I might need to say like, oh fuck. Like, oh man. Like I'm, I'm like, something's happening. Like, I need to take a second. Um, I need to take a few minutes or take a second, or I just need to, like, I'm, I'm realizing I'm reacting to what you're saying right now. And so I do not fire that email. Email off. Yeah. Never, never. You not fire it off. I'll say, yeah. If I'm ever feeling agitated and I will not, I will not send an email. Like, no. 'cause it's gonna be, nope. I'm, I just won't do it. It's gonna be short or it's gonna be curt or it's gonna be, um, it, it's not, yeah, it ends up feeling, I, it doesn't, I do, I want it to feel nice when it's received. I don't want someone to, to question how you feel about them. Yes. How I feel about them if I'm like mad or frustrated or, you know, whatever. Um, so I think that. Maybe just to recap this, 'cause I don't know if I really have much more to add the emotional work underneath LMA is that it's just always there and I think it should be, I think it should be tuned into or tended to in every LMA interaction that you have, whether by nature of how you're just engaging with the person which is attachment based. You know, it's like I'm connecting with you as a human, like we're here together. Or whether it is an active process, like, oh man, I am noticing something happening between us and I don't know what it is. Is there something happening? Like, are you feeling okay? Like I'm sensing some hesitation. I don't know if it's just my own, like, it's like now we're, you know, collab, we're like grappling with this thing together and maybe it's nothing, but also like, it seems like it might be something so can we just like talk about it? You know? Some people don't like that. But also, like, if it gets in the way, if it's in the way of LMA, then it has to be tended to. I, I always think about like, um, I always think about your fucking limbic, your midbrain, you know, this, your limbic system, your mid brain. It's older. It's like from an evolutionary perspective, it was developed first. I mean, it's, it develops first in utero. It's your hind brain, then your mid midbrain and your midbrain is like your emotional center, basically. And I think about it, like, if I'm hiking on a trail and I am, there's all of these like offshoots, you know, or spurs like trail spurs. Like, oh, you can go this way and then you just gotta come back down. And so if I'm hiking on a trail and somebody says, you have to hike every, every like. Every single foot of this trail, you have to hike, including the Spurs. I think about like the Spurs as emotional, like spikes. Like, oh, I have to actually walk this to be able to like come back down to a baseline to continue the conversation that I actually need to have with you. And so if there is emotionality and it's not tended to, or like, um, at a low enough level that you can engage with somebody about whatever the problem at hand is, you are wasting your breath because you, it has to be low enough that the person, your frontal cortex will in essence go offline if your limbic system is too loud. You're, you are not able to really retain information. You can't think clearly. You might think you're logical, but you're driven by whatever's happening in your emotional center. And so I think there's something about. I think there's something about like, um, there has to be a s from my perspective, there has to be a sense of comfortability with emotions and an emotional world as part of leadership. Not only your own, but also others. And so, I don't know, it's weird to say. It's weird to me to think, like, no one taught me that. I just, I think my whole life has been like, emotions are important. So like, it's like, uh, my whole life has taught me this. And also then there's like, you know, neurological, like biological components to it, that there's also like, um, theoretical components to it. And there's also like clinical experience components. Like every aspect of this is just fed into me having this in my mind it's, it's basically set, like emotions do come first and they should take priority. And that doesn't mean that they should take up all of the space entirely and that you should spend the whole time processing emotions to the extent that it turns into a therapy session, because that, that's not, that's not what I'm trying to say. What I am saying is that when emotions spike, we can collectively like tend to them, bring them down and continue the LMA conversation we need to have. If they're so big and they can't be brought down, that's not, that's not appropriate. It's a therapeutic conversation. Or that's say like, holy moly, like you need to get hooked up with your supervisor about this. Like this is something that's blocking us even having a conversation that we need to have. Like those are, those are separate things. Yeah. Like the biannual, it was like, we're like, oh yes, that's a great example. Yeah. This is, this is like, this is, this emotion is important but also big enough and this is not the place to like attend to this. Yes. So let's, like, I wanna honor that and, and understand that like we actually can't have the conversation we came here to have because this thing is in the way and that's okay. Yeah. So let's, yeah. And I'm not gonna force it. Yeah. I'm not gonna force this conversation. Yeah. Sorry, I just No. Really trying to like, hone in on like, you literally just accepted the state of what was and said, let's just do this later. Yeah. Yes. That's exactly right. Like, yeah. Mm-hmm. It sounds like this needs to be tended to. We're not gonna do that here. Like there was a very implicit understanding that like, that's not what we're here for. That's not our relationship. That's not my role. Yeah. So like you have take time to tend to this thing 'cause it's important and it needs tending to, so, so do that in the appropriate time and place. Um, and then we'll reconvene and we'll have this conversation once this other thing is, is tended to. Yeah. Um, because we would've had a very, very different conversation if we had tried to like push through and just like get through it. Um, yeah. It would've been fruitless. Yes, for sure. Yeah. Yeah. It would've been fruitless. Yeah, for sure. And skewed data, it would've skewed the data. It would've been fruitless. That's exactly right. Yeah. I mean even like literally skewed the data in terms of like, we collect, I'm serious. Yeah. The data we're collecting. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like the quantitative data we collect, it would've been skewed because we have one negative outlier. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Um, just to like put a, to, to put a point on this. Like, um, I think this also kind of goes back to the difference between you and I and how we like, have come to this place because, uh, I am, I'm, I am a new adherent to the belief that emotion is in everything. It should be a part of everything, which is so fucking funny. Funny. Like a, that is funny. Yeah. Um, but I will say like, my training as a social worker is more about, like, our focus is more about Yeah. Systems and how, um. Like on a macro level, how systems impact people. Mm-hmm. Um, person and environment is a huge thing. Mm-hmm. So it's, it's not to say that emotions aren't important, but my, um, my background is more about like systems and structures and how those impact people and have an impact on their emotion. Mm-hmm. Um, rather than being like, no, the emotion is what informs informs at all. Yeah. Um, and so I'm, I'm not, I'm not a like 100% convert. Um, but I think I, I think I've married these because I think there are times when we're in discussions between us, um, especially on a more like philosophical level, I'm more prone to bring into, into play like the, the systemic things like in society that might be impacting. Mm-hmm. Whereas I think your approach is, is gonna, is, correct me if I'm wrong, more on a micro level of like, yes. Of, of this per like a person in their emotion or me and my emotion. Mm-hmm. Um, and so again, this is just a great example of like. Visionary integrator. We're coming from different, very different kind of, um, even like theoretical or philosophical foundations, great words. Mm-hmm. Um, and have come and have come to I think maybe me more come to a middle. But yeah, I think there is something to be said for there. There's always, I feel like there's so much nuance talking about this because I'm also thinking that, um, you know, Steve, my husband Steve, I talked about him on the podcast. Taylor, you know, Steve, he did dog training for a long time. He's incredible with do, I mean, he just really, um, is incredible with dogs. And he would do some training with people. This is years ago. He doesn't do it now, but he would talk about how. You're not gonna change this thing about the dog, but what you can start to change is the physical environment and like what you're doing with the animal, what you're doing with the dog and some dogs, of course, this is, I probably could spend hours talking about dogs at this point just because of him. So I will spare you that and say, this also makes me think about prisons. This also makes me think about crowded areas. It also makes me think about, um, spacious physical spaces. Like there absolutely is something about the system, not just the physical space, but I think that the structures that we put in place and the impact on the people. So it's not that I am pro emotion and not interested in systems or structure. I hardcore think that a clean system, it's like what we said earlier, like that quiet labor piece. This a clean system and structure and workflow and process. I will spend a lot of time trying to build it out so it's clean, because I know the experience of stepping into that is going to have an impact on the way a person feels and how they engage with it. So it's not just emotions are important and let me spend all my time talking about them and living in them. You know? It's also this other piece, like I'm, I think that it's just both. Like, you can't have one without the other. And I think that the thing that tends to get bypassed more often than not is the emotional landscape. Yes. The, the, the structure piece is always sort of tended to, but it's like, well, sure that's important. It's super important, you know, duh. And that thing that you're creating should be directly informed by this stuff over here that you're not even like asking about at all. Like this emotional, this whole emotional world, this whole felt sense. All of these things should inform the structures that you're creating, the adjustments that you make to the structures, the processes, the workflows, et cetera. It should be both. It shouldn't just be one or the other. Well, this is for me, where it gets into the territory of like, um, the difference between a matriarchal approach to leadership versus a patriarchal approach mm-hmm. To leadership. And maybe that's a different conversation for a different day. Sure. Different podcast. Yeah. Yeah. But, um, but it's this idea of with a patriarchal perspective, um, emotions are not important. They're not central. Yeah. Um, a matriarchal approach. Emotions are central. Emotions are, they're embedded in everything. Of everything. That's exactly right. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Oh, okay. I love this. Okay. Let's do, um, two more questions. Yep. What is more like, hmm, practical, let's just start there. Where should a leader begin if they feel overwhelmed by the invisible weight? This is a hard question. Oh, that's funny because my first thought is, um, uh, which is not my, my, well it is actually my inclination. I'm not an externalizer, but my first thought is like, you gotta, you gotta reach out. Like if, if it's feeling heavy, you gotta like, take that to other people. Whether that be like sharing that load with your leadership team. Yeah. Or if, if, or if it's just you, like finding a space where you can connect with other leaders, other people doing this work. Um, that is, um, that is absolutely where you should start is like if the work is feeling heavy, um, it's connecting with other people, like I said, either on your leadership team and saying like. Is it just me? Are you all feeling this way? Yeah. Or connecting with other leaders and saying like, have you experienced this? Yeah. Or I'm feeling this. Like what do I do with this overwhelm? Yeah. Um, I, I am a very, I'm an internal person and if I'm ever feeling some type of way, I gotta connect. Like I, it's like this thing of like, I'm not crazy. Right. Like, you feel this too. Yeah. It's not just me. It's not just me. Is it? Yeah. It's like reality checking almost. That's exactly right. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So that's the first thing that comes to me is like, you gotta connect with other people. Yeah. And, and do that testing and do that checking to see like, it's what we talk about with, um, you've talked about this with me, we talk about this in leadership. I've started talking about this with my ops team in particular, but like, is this a global issue? Mm-hmm. Or is this an individual issue? Mm-hmm. So like, is this a me? Like is there something for me that's going on with like leadership feeling heavy or overwhelming? Yeah. Um. That I need to tend to, or am I like entering into this universal experience of like, this is a heavy thing. Yep. And so then by connecting with others, it like lightens that load. It helps me feel like, okay, I'm not alone. It's not just me. Mm-hmm. Um, and then maybe I can get some advice. It, yeah. Maybe I'm getting some advice of what are you, how do you carry the heavy? Um, or maybe it's just by virtue of like hearing like I'm not alone, that like it helps immediately lifts that. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I think that, um, that's funny to me that you went there first. Um, I think I just, I don't, it, I just makes me feel like I've questions like where should a leader begin if they feel overwhelmed by the invisible weight? I think, I feel like, well, is there something. I don't have enough information. Like what do you feel overwhelmed by? Is it like the amount of things that you're carrying? Is it the not having anybody around you that you're like talking with? Do you have a leadership team in place or not? Do you have group practice owner or leader friends that you can connect with or not? Are you doing too much? Are you like, you know, do you have sort of some martyr like tendencies where you're taking on more than you actually need to? Yeah. Are you clear about the roles that your practice and what roles you're in and what should be filled by maybe somebody else who's a better fit for that seat? Are you surrounded by people who aren't actually the right people at your team? You know what I mean? Like, like what's source? So many's the source. It's hard to say a practical, A practical answer without knowing like what, where rooted in what is happening. Yeah. Yes. And so I think if there's something about like I'm feeling overwhelmed by invisible weight and I have a leadership team. My thought would be, I would take it to you all. I would say like, I am fucking stretched thin. And then I would pro I, I'm an external processor, so for me that's, that's an issues list conversation. 'cause it's gonna show up everywhere. Like, I'm gonna be a bottleneck or I'm gonna, you know, what the hell ever. And so it ends up, you know, Tara capacity. Tara overwhelm is gonna go on the issues list and it's gonna be an item that we work through during L 10 and maybe there's not something that gets changed immediately. Maybe it's like a series of small steps or I identify like, okay, okay, okay. So this is the thing that's actually most overwhelming for me. And it could be something I know in my own case, the things that are overwhelming. I feel like they end up being like tasky execution related things that I just don't wanna deal, I don't wanna deal with or fuck with. And they're the things that get like kicked down the road and like, I'm not actually like, but they, they stay with me. Like I, I'm feeling them. You know? That's maybe a, a small example of like, weight, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. I think too, there's something around, um, maybe to your point, Taylor, there is something around, like, nobody really, let's say you don't have a leadership team, nobody really can understand at the practice, whoever you're employing, they, they can't really get it. They don't have the angle of the business that you have, they don't have the liability and logistical weight of it. You know, they, they don't have these, they don't, they don't have any of that. So it's all, it's all on you. I think there is something about having people around you that you can go to, to say. I am in the thick of it right now. I'm sort of questioning what I'm doing. If I'm doing it well, blah. You know, and, and from there I think that those end up being really, they can be really valuable conversations where some of the takeaways are things you might be able to sort of implement right away. Even if you're not getting directly to the source, you can start, 'cause maybe there's like multiple trailheads. If we're sticking with like a trails analogy, maybe there's multiple trailheads and it kind of doesn't matter which one you choose, you just have to choose one. And as you chip away at this thing, or as you start walking down this trail, you realize that this, this trail intersects with every other trail in this park or in this forest or in these woods or whatever. But like, just starting that path will take you potentially everywhere else that you need and want to go. But, so doing something, you know? Yeah. But I, I think those, some things that you can do can be a result of having a discussion with leadership team. Again, if, and if you don't have one of those, then either potentially a trusted person at your practice who you want on leadership, but if you don't have one of those, then I think colleague friends in the area. Yeah. Or on, you know, Facebook, there's plenty of Facebook groups that a lot of group practice owners are a part of. And so, yeah, I don't think I have anything else to say about that. Cool. Okay. Final questions. There's two, but I'm just gonna say 'em together 'cause it's kind of the same thing. Okay. So one is what's sticking with each of us from this conversation. And the other is what takeaway feels most true, most grounding or most unexpected. So I feel like they're asking similar things. Yeah. Yeah, they are. Um. It's funny 'cause I know what I'm gonna say is like, is always, it's like a fucking duh for you, but like, it's, it's so funny. It's like a, it's a reminder of, um, just to use your, to tie it all together, to use your analogy or metaphor, whatever the difference is. Someone talk, I never know in the comments. Yeah, yeah. Seriously. Right. Um, but emotionality is such a player at the table is honestly a permanent player at the table. Um, and just the, again, like I, I know that it's important, but I think I'm just reminded of, um, and maybe struck by how we just keep circling back to that and how, just, just how central, um, it's like it's not business or it's not personal, it's business. Um, business is always personal, Ryan. It's always personal. Yeah. Right. That's an office reference. For those who don't know. It's always personal, the it, like we cannot, we're not, we might dilute ourselves into thinking we don't have emotions or that we can be these neutral people, um, these unbiased people. And we like can and should work to like, recognize our bias. But it's the acknowledgement of the fact that we actually cannot be unbiased. We cannot be unemotional. Um, that's where the work starts and that's once you can like, um, embody or integrate that belief or that understanding that like emotions are like a significant important part of things and that they play often a central role in whatever is happening. Um, that is when the, like the magic happens. Mm-hmm. To be like super cheesy. But I think that is like, um, for me, what feels different or what feels really special about. What I feel really passionate, like why I feel really passionate about doing LMA, like doing this work, um, is being able to start to unlock, like the problem solving of it all is easy. Mm-hmm. It's fun, but it's easy. It's simple. It's, it's easy. It's simple. Yeah. It's, mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. It's simple. It's not easy. Um, not always. Yeah. But it's the, it's that emotional, like navigating that piece, um, that is, is fun. 'cause it's kind of more of a challenge, like in the money, you know, in the, in the midst of it. It might not feel fun. It's like, oh, this is hard and sticky. Mm-hmm. Um, but it's kind of like, um, I'm not a runner. The mo, I did a, I did a a 5K once and I was like, Ooh, Uhhuh. That's a big deal. Yeah. It was hard. It was hard as fuck. Yeah. And I got to the end and it was like, that was. Awesome. Yeah. Yeah. It was fucking hard. Yeah. But it was like, that was awesome. You know, you get those endorphins, you get that high. Yeah. That's what it feels like to me. It's like working through some of these, um, these emotional pieces or working through that in LMA. Um, it's like I get that high. 'cause it's like we're doing challenging, important work, and it's like, if I'm gonna get macro, it's like, um, I was talking with my therapist, God, it's also intertwined like motherhood. Mm-hmm. Like this work that we are doing as parents of young people, teaching them, helping them to regulate emotion and understand that is the most vital work Yes. That we as humans can be doing. Mm-hmm. Um, and this is like LMA, it's obviously not parenting. Yeah. I don't wanna like, um, infantalize our staff. Yeah. Or like, they're not, it doesn't seem like that. But there's like a shade of that. Like it's this, like this work is actually the most important work. Um, because not only are we solving issues in our organization, but we're also kind of walking, this is like the therapist, like we're therapist approaching this work. Mm-hmm. We're walking alongside people. Um, and in some ways maybe like giving people permission to, like, you have given me permission to acknowledge that, um, my emotions are a like a player here. Like, I remember the first time you brought, like, you kind of challenged me and I was like, how? Like who are you to bring up my emotion into this shop? This is shut up about the sun. We're professionals. We're professionals. Little did you know. Yeah. Right. I'm a professional. My emotions aren't at play here. I'm a professional. Yeah. It's like, yeah, bitch, you are professional and you like your emotions are professional too. Mm-hmm. Yeah. That was really, that was really windy and rambling, but no, that was great. I think there's, uh, one thing you said that. Fuck. I wanted to run with it for a second. It was the emotionality piece. It was something about, oh, I'm losing it. No. Come back. I hate that. I know. I can like feel it slipping away. Oh, it was something I really wanted to run with. I don't know. For me it's like the, I wanted to do macro social work instead of micro social work because it's this idea of like, um, big, big change. There are people drive like drowning in the river and you like the people doing the micro work are pulling the people out of the river. Mm-hmm. But someone's gotta go up further and stop. People could get from getting in the river and that's how like, you know, you can make an impact. And so that was to me, like the metaphor that was given about like macro versus micro work. And I was like, oh fuck yeah. I gotta stop people from getting in the river. Yeah. In the first place. Yeah. Yeah. There was something I wanted to add on and I, I just can't remember what it was. So that stinks. 'cause it was about the, of course the emotionality piece. You're right in that it's not, um, I don't wanna say like, that's a duh. 'cause it doesn't, it doesn't feel that way. Oh, I know what it was. To me thinking about people as just being emotional creatures. Meaning making creatures also in a meaningless world, inherently meaningless. Um, that part doesn't matter. But the emotional creatures too. It kind of depersonalizes stuff where I think like you have feelings and I have feelings and they are just feelings. Like they aren't all of me. Even though they might take up a really strong, like felt like sense in my body, you know, maybe they take up a lot of space. I am separate from this thing so I can both feel it deeply and also not let it consume me and also not let it consume me to the extent that it's the only thing influencing how I'm operating. So even in like interchanges with people, it's not that I don't have feeling responses. Um. But I think a lot of the times it, it feels like the, the four agreements, like the Don Miguel Ruiz, the, it's not personal. Like it doesn't feel personal. Like it feels like, oh, that's a feeling like, okay, well what's the feeling? Well, tell me about it. Like, what's happening? Like, it ends up being an entry point into a conversation instead of you're giving me a feeling. Well, I don't, I don't fucking want, you feel like, oh no, like that's your, you know, it's sort of like, no, I can walk in here with you because I, I'm, I like have boundaries around this. I, I am like, have my own feelings and that's okay. And you have yours and what's it like? And I, I think, so I think there's something about like when emotions do play a central role, which I think that they should, of course, if that's not obvious by this point in the episode, then that doesn't mean that they play the only role. And also, um. They just become parts of what you're doing. Yeah. It just continues to be like, oh, it's a source of data. The same way that this quantitative feedback is the same way that my assessment of the structure is the same way that, uh, therapist feedback is the same, you know, all of it. Yeah. It's like, it's all valuable information. So. Well, it makes me think of like, oh, go ahead. No, you do it. Go ahead. It makes you think of what, um, uh, the, kinda like the antidote to defensiveness. Like I Oh yeah. I tend to be very defensive. Um, and you have helped me to remember that like, um. That, that like, I don't actually, it's not about me like it. Mm-hmm. Like it's, it is, but like, whatever, like the emotion. If I'm interpreting, I'm oftentimes this is where the, like I'm assu people are assuming the worst. Oh yeah. You know? Yeah, sure. Um, I'm, I'm assuming I am assuming the worst and that actually, like, it's like ultimately not about me. Like whatever might be happening mm-hmm. That defensiveness is coming up. It's not actually, whatever's happening isn't about me. Um, and when you can like, acknowledge that that person is coming in with their own emotions and feel curious about that mm-hmm. Um, it can bring down that like, sense of defensiveness. Yep. So I don't, I don't have to, I don't have to put my, like put my dukes up, walls up and be on guard. Yeah. Yeah. No. 'cause it's actually probably like, whatever's happening is probably less about me and more about like, what is this thing that's happening here? Yeah. And we can, um, we can like, um, diffuse from, from that and like peek at it and be curious and see like, what's going on here. Yeah. And also the safety piece of acknowledging that like, emotion, like if we're coming into it expecting that emotion is gonna play a role, then I think that that can take down like shame or like, oh yes. Reluctance. You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. And that, that further then just like cements this idea of like creating safety, creating trust. Yeah. That it's fine to be you. Like have a full experience here. A full gamut of, I remember years ago, I would, I still think this, like I know people get annoyed with me. I know they get mad at shit that I do. It's okay. Like, you don't have to love everything that I do or even like everything that I do, you can think that I'm overbearing or think that I'm pushy. And do you feel safe here? Do you feel supported? Like those are the things that actually matter to me. Yeah. Um, your, your. Uh, you know, one-to-one experience of me kind of doesn't matter. I'm not, I nobody is for everybody, you know? Yeah. Yep. But the thing I was gonna say too, with the defensiveness piece is that if you can set that aside, then not only are you able to hear what the person is actually trying to say, but then you can also assess what they're saying in relation to whatever structure or, uh, behavior is in place or that you're doing. So if I'm defensive, uh, basically defensiveness, just think of it as a shield effectively. Mm-hmm. You know, anything that's coming towards me is just gonna be blocked. Whether it's me like batting it back or like, uh, being a fucking martyr, you know, being a martyr victim. Like I just, they can't do anything right. You know? Yep. But if I can hear somebody say something to me that historically maybe I get a little bit defensive, well, I tried as hard as I could, and instead I hear that they are frustrated and they felt, um, unclear what was expected and they had higher expectations for something and they just really didn't like what happened. Then I can say, well, fuck, what role did I play in that, if any, and what can we do to make sure that doesn't happen next time? Because what they're saying is actually legit. Like, oh, they have some good points. Like if we're, if we can't, you know, even if you feel defensive, that's not, you know, that's not my response. That doesn't tend to be my response. And so, yeah, I can get defensive, but like it, I feel like that's not, yeah, it's not very often, but it, even if you are defensive, it's not like any feeling that you have doesn't need to exist. It's not like saying, you know, I wouldn't say to you, Taylor, well, you need to work on being defensive. Like, stop being defensive. Oh, okay. Thanks mom. You know, like, fuck, good luck. Like, that's not, yeah, that's not real. Good luck. Yeah. Seriously. But if I can say, okay, cool. Can you like, um, contain the defensiveness and also just like set it aside slightly and, and try to hear what they're saying. And maybe like re language is that it's language it as it's coming into your system so it doesn't Yeah. Poke at your defensiveness as much. Maybe that's doable. Yeah. So we're not saying don't be you, because if your default horseman or default response is a little bit of defensiveness, fucking cool, man, it, it sort of doesn't matter. And we still need to be able to hear what's being said and assess its accuracy and like Yeah. Use it to assess what we're doing or what we haven't done or how we can do it better. So, um, yeah, I think it's like nobody has to be, there's no need for perfection. You know this. Yeah, I know this. It's not possible, you know. It's like that idea of like, I'm gonna butcher the quote, but it's whatever resistance to suffer, like the resistance to the suffering only amplifies the suffering, or is worse than the suffering itself. You know, it's like, I think that's like very, a very Buddhist idea. Maybe like detach yourself from the, like, the experience or the suffering of it all. I'm just like, acknowledge, you know? So if I'm like being resistant to being defensive, well that's fucking useless. 'cause I'm gonna be defensive. Be more defensive. Yeah. It just gonna create more emotional distress for me. Yeah. Um, but then if I can, if I can kind of like acknowledge that that's there, set that aside. Um, you're right. Like the, what the person is like throwing at me that might be triggering. There might be some stuff in there that's like, yeah, that's not mine, that's yours to own. Like, yes. But there, there's often, I think more oftentimes than not, people aren't fucking crazy. Yeah. They have things that are actual, that we're not, can assess and use to like mm-hmm. They're not that reaction that emo again, emotion is data. Yeah. That's not, that's not just like springing up like, like Aphrodite from the foam. Yeah. You know, like it's not coming up out of nothing. Yeah. There's some, there's something there, whether it's like this big or this big, but there's something there and you can set that aside and, and then again, ultimately just feeds back into that relationship building. And you're saying like, I hear you and I'm, I value what you're saying to me. Yeah. And I don't, and I also don't have to, like, I can let some of that go. Like, some of that's not mine to carry and that's cool. I'm not gonna, yep. Yeah. Yeah. I love this. I think the, the thing that's probably sticking with me from today, or if there's like a takeaway or a thing or, um, I don't know if there's anything, any one thing that stands out. I think that there's something about the, something about the heaviness piece always as we enter the end of the year and especially with the sort of year that it's been, um. It's just, it always feels heavy towards the tail end of the year, you know? Yeah. With the slowing down and revenue decreases and, you know, payroll doesn't decrease and expenses don't decrease. And so, and there's no fucking sunlight anymore. Oh, yeah. There's just sunlight anymore. I don't, I'm a vampire. I don't think that phased me. But I know, like, I, I don't think, I think that phases you, I know Molly likes sunlight. Steve likes sunlight. Um, I think there's something about probably realizing, and maybe just actively talking out loud about this, like, I think I knew it, but like, voicing it as like, oh yeah. The, the most important or the, the, the biggest maybe like the most emotionally significant decrease in the quiet labor, the heaviness was having you and Molly in place. It was having, and I guess initially it wasn't Molly, but having a clinical director and at the time you were office manager and director of operations. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And then soon after de a director of operations. That was it. I, I think I felt like for probably the first time I genuinely felt like I'm not alone anymore doing this. Like it's not just me doing this. Yeah. And even though the weight is different and the things that I carry are distinct in some ways, and same for you and same for DCO, there is still something about having people along the ride or the journey or just having people there with me that I trust and in roles that makes sense. You know, where it's like this is clean and effective and when we implement it, it just continues to get better. Of course there's hiccups as we're doing EOS, you know, with anything there's hiccups and feel like overall, like it continues to get better and. Yeah. I think the takeaway for me is just realizing like, holy shit, that was when I think I felt really like the impact of having a leadership team and like the, the decrease in loneliness and the increase in, um, shared responsibility. Yeah. Yeah. So I just, it's wild to think about that. It's like a triangle, you know? It's like way more sturdy. It's like way more the, the weight distribution is way more even Yes. Than like once, for sure. But even two, it's like, what are you gonna fucking do? Like, it's a, it's a house park fall right over. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Is that 2D having like a, a wall, like in this angle here and here it's this and it might fall. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Anyway. Mm-hmm. Okay. Well I would say, do you have any plug? But I know that you don't, so Not yet. This is Taylor. Everybody, my integrator, who's been with me for four years now going on five. Jesus. It'll be be five. Oh my God. That's nuts. I know. Um, thank you to everybody who is here with me and with us. Excuse me. Again, this is a new recurring segment. The vi table, visionary integrator table. Taylor will be on with me probably once a month is my guess, on average at least once a month, if not a little bit more. Whenever we feel so inclined to Yeah. Record and share something. Mm-hmm. I think you know that I value time. I think you know Taylor, but for all my other people listening, I really value time. So it means a lot that you spend some listening. My ask is one of two. One, subscribe to the podcast if you haven't already. That way you get all the new episode updates and you can find it easily to listen to previous episodes. Two, share this episode with somebody who needs to hear it or who you think might benefit from hearing it. And that's it. Otherwise, have a great rest of your day and I will see you next time. Thanks. Catch on on Flippity Flip. Catch you on the flippity flip. Bye.