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How Creative Pruning Shaped Jon Well's Storytelling · I Don't Know You

• 0:04
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, I'm Matt.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_00: I'm a Jesus follower,
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_00: husband,
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_00: father,
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_00: son,
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_00: and friend who is super curious about topics like parenthood,
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_00: creativity,
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_00: and the tension between ambition and contentment,
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_00: all while living in the distraction of the 21st century.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_00: These conversations serve as
• 0:19
  a way for me to hear from people I deeply respect on topics
• 0:23
  that I'm still learning about.
• 0:24
  Can you give me 10 seconds of your time to ask if you could
• 0:28
  share,
• 0:28
  follow,
• 0:29
  and review?
• 0:29
  It would be a great help to make these conversations more
• 0:32
  discoverable for
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_00: like-minded creatives.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_00: My goal is to continue to make these as best as I can and bring relevant
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_00: conversations to you that you'll find interesting.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for listening.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_00: It seriously means so much to me.
• 0:44
  Today,
• 0:44
  I'm talking with my friend John Wells,
• 0:46
  a writer and a filmmaker and thoughtful creative.
• 0:49
  John and I have had many conversations about what it means to
• 0:52
  make things that
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_00: matter,
• 0:53
  and he's someone who doesn't settle for easy answers about
• 0:56
  faith and creativity.
• 0:57
  He's constantly asking what it looks like to follow Jesus in
• 1:01
  the middle of all that.
• 1:02
  I really enjoyed some of the turns this conversation took,
• 1:05
  and I hope you do too.
• 1:07
  got me thinking about like what niche what niche can i go into
• 1:11
  and then i'm like oh
• 1:12
  i really love like non-profits lots of money there there
• 1:16
  probably is more money
• 1:17
  than we figured out how to yeah but that's like but you got to
• 1:20
  do it right that's
• 1:21
  like the best version of a non-profit is like not making money
• 1:25
  right morally yeah i
• 1:29
  guess i don't know that's how i think about i mean it's
• 1:34
  literally in the name non
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_00: no profits
• 1:38
  Yeah,
• 1:39
  but also at the same time,
• 1:39
  like people that are part of nonprofits have to live.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_00: And if you want them to be good,
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_00: then you need them to, like, focus on that.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_01: I think the organization is non-profit.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_01: The people should be for-profit.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_00: Because you do need to trade,
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_00: because you're exchanging your livelihood,
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_00: your time,
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_01: and all of that for...
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_00: Well,
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_00: but then I think of,
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_00: bivocational pastors and stuff,
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_00: which was the old biblical model,
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_00: was like,
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_00: oh,
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_00: I'm a fisherman,
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_00: and then I,
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_00: I'm a pastor.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_00: But, like, what was the term pastor even back then?
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_00: Where it's, like, they're doing something else to make a living.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_00: And then they're also being a pastor on Sunday or whatever.
• 2:18
  But like,
• 2:18
  I think in the Western Christian church,
• 2:21
  it's like mostly,
• 2:22
  oh,
• 2:22
  you're a pastor.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_00: So like you do that full time.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 2:27
  It's kind of an interesting dilemma,
• 2:31
  but that's not what we're going to talk about today.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_01: We could totally get it.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_01: I'm in that world.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_01: So I know I do.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_00: I guess I am curious about some of that, but I'm more curious about
• 2:43
  you as a creative and like a christian and kind of marrying the
• 2:48
  two together yeah
• 2:51
  yeah and a writer and like i don't know i'm just grateful that
• 2:54
  you're taking the
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_00: time today to to talk with me and uh i feel like we have some of the best
• 3:00
  conversations about like creativity and um yeah i i love
• 3:05
  getting to talk to you and
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_00: i feel like whenever
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_00: I do talk to you.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, oh, I really got to get back to work.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like a five minute thing.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_00: And then it's like an hour later, we're done talking.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_01: I feel bad.
• 3:16
  I feel like I do that with anybody that I get into a
• 3:18
  conversation with about deeper and stuff.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like, yeah, but that's good.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_01: Am I just derailing people?
• 3:26
  And I'm like the worst,
• 3:27
  like literally like Andy,
• 3:28
  I was talking to Andy on the phone.
• 3:32
  last week and it was supposed to be like a 15 minute call
• 3:34
  because he was like
• 3:35
  helping me with a footage problem i was like bro how do you get
• 3:37
  the codec to work
• 3:39
  on red footage and it ended up being an hour half conversation
• 3:43
  about the bible and
• 3:47
  where we at with our creative journey and like how did we get
• 3:49
  i'm so sorry i like
• 3:49
  he missed a separate meeting i was like bro i'm the worst
• 3:52
  friend i don't even know
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_01: if you can qualify me anymore i'm done
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_01: I'm out.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_01: But that's like.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm honored that you put me in that category.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_00: That's on him to be like responsible enough to know when to, you know.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's true.
• 4:06
  You know,
• 4:06
  there's part of you that doesn't want to be a burden,
• 4:09
  at least for me.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_00: I appreciate that.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_01: I don't want to accidentally talk too long.
• 4:13
  And then people feel stuck where they're like,
• 4:15
  there's no out of the conversation.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_00: But that's,
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like,
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_00: because I've wrestled with this a lot too,
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_00: because I am like a big talker.
• 4:23
  And I think like when we get together,
• 4:24
  then there's a nuclear explosion of talking.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_00: Talking awesomeness.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_00: Well,
• 4:32
  like this would be if I could figure out how to make a living
• 4:36
  just talking and like
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_00: exploring ideas with people,
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_00: then that would be the dream.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_00: But I feel like you were built for that for sure.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_00: Who knows what that journey looks like.
• 4:48
  um all that to say it's on on the other person to like be like
• 4:52
  hey man i got a
• 4:53
  meeting i gotta run um but you you are self-aware enough to
• 4:57
  know like uh when to
• 5:00
  when to pull the plug too i think so yeah i try um i am very
• 5:04
  grateful for all the
• 5:05
  conversations that we've had over the well i guess years at
• 5:08
  this point because i
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_00: feel like our relationship is
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, it's kind of in these little punctuation points.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_00: It's not like we haven't done a lot of life together.
• 5:18
  But when we do sync up,
• 5:20
  then we do like a lot of life in that conversation.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah.
• 5:25
  Like there's a deep understanding and a resonance with the
• 5:29
  conversations that we have.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_00: But we don't have like,
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_00: we haven't done a lot of life together,
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_00: for lack of a better way of saying that.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_01: I think we would if we like actually lived closer.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_00: Like in a bubble together.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_00: We lived too far away.
• 5:40
  It's like when you go see,
• 5:41
  like,
• 5:41
  a family member that you haven't seen or whatever.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_01: It's like we're able to, like, restore some of that lost time.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_00: It's like the unpause reset versus, yeah, it's more of an unpause deal.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_00: But I think the first thing that I'm curious about,
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_00: because I don't know if I've really heard this full story.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_00: And, like, I'm curious to understand, like, what got you into film?
• 6:04
  because you're you're obviously a filmmaker you're a writer um
• 6:09
  you're you're a
• 6:10
  husband and a soon-to-be father um like all these amazing
• 6:14
  things um and i'm curious
• 6:16
  about like i think so much of who you are is in general from my
• 6:21
  limited view of you
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_00: is like storyteller and
• 6:25
  um the medium that you do that through is film so yeah i'm
• 6:29
  curious to like
• 6:29
  understand how did you get into film what were the things that
• 6:33
  were like oh my gosh
• 6:33
  this is this is it um it's hard to one first of all it's hard
• 6:39
  to not feel like i'm
• 6:40
  on camera right now well you are but there's a little bit of
• 6:44
  this camera-ness
• 6:45
  coming out i'm like i guess what am i doing relax be like i'm
• 6:48
  in the office yeah
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_00: yeah well that was the whole idea of like having
• 6:52
  in this environment like not being in front of a mic not being
• 6:56
  in a studio not
• 6:57
  having studio lighting um like one it works because i don't
• 7:02
  have the budget for
• 7:03
  that and two it works because it's just the whole idea is like
• 7:08
  we're we're getting
• 7:09
  coffee we're catching up yeah yeah just forget about the camera
• 7:12
  forget about the
• 7:12
  mics if there's anything that you're like after the fact you're
• 7:15
  like oh my gosh i
• 7:15
  can't believe i said that just let me know oh we can edit that
• 7:18
  out yeah that's the
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_00: beauty of editing that's true that's true
• 7:23
  Um,
• 7:24
  yeah,
• 7:25
  I guess then my journey to here,
• 7:28
  uh,
• 7:28
  how did I get into filmmaking?
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_01: Uh,
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_01: well,
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_01: like,
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  SPEAKER_01: I grew up in church and stuff,
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  SPEAKER_01: and so,
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  SPEAKER_01: like,
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  SPEAKER_01: being a part of,
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_01: a tech team became an option in youth group when we,
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know,
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_01: we were,
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_01: I was,
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_01: 14,
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_01: and my family,
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_01: just changed churches,
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_01: and we went to a new youth group and homeschooled shy kid.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_01: That's why we resonate so much.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_01: That's what it is.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_01: It's a homeschool.
• 7:51
  We recognize that we both were sheltered and also don't
• 7:56
  understand the world
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_01: because we were protected from it for too long.
• 8:01
  But yeah,
• 8:02
  no,
• 8:03
  we went to a new youth group when I was like 14 or whatever.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_01: And I actually really was upset that like we moved churches.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_01: And so it was super like reserved and pulled back.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_01: And then there was one youth leader that was really cool.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_01: And he was like, would you be interested in this?
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_01: And was like, dude, you should join the tech team.
• 8:18
  And I ended up like meeting my best friend the first week there
• 8:21
  at this new church
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  SPEAKER_01: and started getting involved with like tech stuff.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_01: So it was like, you know, it was camera.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_01: It was sound.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_01: It was lights.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_00: It was pro presenter.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_00: 14 maybe?
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_00: Pro presenter.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, pro presenter.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_01: The church, it has an anchor on the church field.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_01: I hate pro presenter, but I love it at the same time.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_01: You said 14?
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 8:44
  So yeah,
• 8:45
  I just was involved with tech all the way through high school
• 8:47
  then.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_01: Like getting involved,
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_01: learning,
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_01: like going deeper and deeper and just being a little bit of a geek.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_01: Like my brother and I growing up were like super into like,
• 8:56
  video games and fantasy worlds and and playing make-believe in
• 8:59
  the backyard and so
• 9:01
  being like a little bit of a nerd and homeschooler and by
• 9:04
  nature it was like oh my
• 9:05
  gosh learning how all this technology works is so cool because
• 9:08
  you can make all
• 9:09
  these cool effects happen or you can make all these like reverb
• 9:11
  happen you were
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_00: getting into like uh vfx and stuff too
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_01: Not quite.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_01: I've done that now, but that came quite a bit later.
• 9:21
  But it was just like learning how to produce a live show was so
• 9:24
  fascinating to me.
• 9:25
  And so I learned all the ins and outs that go in like a church
• 9:28
  tech department.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_01: And we were a pretty good sized church at the time.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_01: So we had like all the goods.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_00: That's crazy at 14.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and it was just like volunteer role, you know.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, what a great skill set.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_01: They had like a secondary camera where they're like,
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_01: we need somebody to move it,
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_01: but they don't have to be highly skilled kind of thing,
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_01: you know.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_01: And that was like the entry level.
• 9:46
  And so I just spent like all of my free time outside of school
• 9:48
  at this church and
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_01: developed like all these skill sets.
• 9:52
  I ended up getting into photography and picked up a camera when
• 9:55
  I was like 17.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_00: What camera were you operating at church?
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_00: Do you remember?
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_01: I have no idea.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_01: Those things are long gone.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_01: They were...
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_01: They were really awesome,
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_01: big,
• 10:07
  heavy live stream cameras with all the focus gear and headsets
• 10:12
  that worked and
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_01: stuff.
• 10:13
  And stuff that you don't really see in the same scale in a
• 10:17
  church the size we are
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_01: now because technology has gotten so much smaller and more affordable.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_00: Just an iPhone now.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and autofocus is incredible.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_01: You don't have to manually do that stuff as much anymore.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 10:28
  um yeah and then yeah picked up a photo camera got into
• 10:31
  photography 17 with a
• 10:33
  couple friends um like one of my i would say like youth leader
• 10:37
  mentor he was like
• 10:39
  became the tech director of their church he graduated into a
• 10:41
  full-time position
• 10:42
  there and then my best friend um and i volunteered like super
• 10:46
  heavily with him and
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_01: so it was like the three of us we were like a dynamic trio or whatever
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_01: And so we were just like in love with like everything Disney was doing,
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_01: especially because at that time Star Wars was just getting rebooted.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_01: And so I was just like all into like this creative atmosphere.
• 11:06
  when it came to like camera stuff and it was really cool but
• 11:09
  still wasn't super
• 11:09
  into film and then when I graduated high school I got my first
• 11:13
  job at a movie
• 11:14
  theater mostly because I had a friend who worked there and I
• 11:18
  didn't know what I was
• 11:19
  doing but I was like I need to get a job feeling this pressure
• 11:21
  I didn't go to
• 11:22
  college so I was like it was either college or job kind of what
• 11:25
  was the household
• 11:26
  rule and so I picked a job and so I ended up working at this
• 11:30
  movie theater and
• 11:31
  um for like a year and a half um also at what point should we
• 11:38
  i'm good to keep
• 11:38
  sitting here oh i'm good i'll just hide my throw this stuff can
• 11:41
  you throw this in
• 11:42
  your bag yeah i have a crack on my screen so i will my phone
• 11:45
  will literally die uh
• 11:47
  if it gets too much more rainy then we can move yeah yeah this
• 11:50
  will this is one of
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_00: the dynamics of of recording in this live environment yeah um
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_01: Oh yeah, so I worked at the theater.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_01: Nice.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_01: And then like what was cool about the movie theater,
• 12:02
  I think this was like the insertion point of which film became
• 12:05
  a real thing for me.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_01: I wasn't allowed to watch a lot of stuff growing up,
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_01: and so working at the theater at first,
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_01: I was like,
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_01: they give you free tickets,
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_01: and it's incredible.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_01: And so I was able to watch all the things that I was allowed to watch,
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_01: which was in Star Wars,
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_01: Avengers,
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_01: typical action films,
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_01: anything rated PG-13,
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_01: no questions I would watch it.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_00: So this is when the seventh Star Wars is coming out.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, what are we on?
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_01: That would have been seven.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_01: Force Awakens or whatever?
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_01: It would have been probably between Force Awakens and the second one.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_01: When I started working at the
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_00: The worst Star Wars.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_01: The worst Star Wars.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_01: It also has the best Star Destroyer scene, right?
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_01: Or is that the third one?
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_01: I can't remember.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yes.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_01: Is that Teleports 3?
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_01: I can't remember which one that is.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_00: The least Star Wars Star Wars.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 12:51
  I get into big debates with my brother about the Rian Johnson
• 12:55
  Star Wars movie
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_00: because it's a great movie on some level.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_01: It's a great standalone film.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_01: But it's just like Rian Johnson.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_00: Was that the right pick for this?
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_01: I want it to be.
• 13:07
  want it to be oh sorry no you're good yeah so then I started
• 13:12
  experimenting with
• 13:13
  like going to watch a movie without my parents permission and
• 13:16
  that was a whole new
• 13:17
  thing and yeah because all my friends wanted to see things and
• 13:20
  I was I was like
• 13:21
  there was this internal nervousness or whatever to do with like
• 13:24
  my upbringing yeah
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_01: ended up watching a ton of movies at the theater and then
• 13:31
  what really like cemented film was like jump cut a couple years
• 13:34
  later i had left
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_01: that job moved out of state and then back into state okay um
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_01: And COVID hits and I was renting a room from a family member.
• 13:43
  And when COVID hit,
• 13:44
  I was still working and it did not jive with my family member.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_01: And so I ended up like losing my housing situation.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_01: And so I was like rescued in a lot of ways by my church pastor.
• 13:56
  I moved in with them and we were like,
• 13:59
  how do we do this video production thing online?
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like the photographer, not the video guy yet.
• 14:04
  I'm starting to dabble in video in my free time,
• 14:07
  but not doing anything professionally at all.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_01: And then we had to develop a complete online system.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_01: And they were like,
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_01: well,
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_01: if you move in with us,
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_01: one,
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_01: that'll solve your housing situation,
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_01: which would be awesome.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_01: And then two, like you can film and do all this stuff, right?
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, yeah, I can do that.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_01: I can figure it out.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_01: And so I ended up moving in with them.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_01: And during that season,
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_01: like it was the cool,
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_01: like that the year of COVID,
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_01: like I know it was terrible for a lot of people.
• 14:32
  It was so cool for me because I had access to all the gear
• 14:35
  literally in my bedroom
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_01: because we just stored it in the bedroom I was living in.
• 14:39
  We would like live produce all of service stuff for church from
• 14:44
  sermons to extra
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_01: video stuff and all the artsy stuff.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_01: So I was just full-time film school.
• 14:49
  And then when we clock out of work,
• 14:52
  we'd sit down on the couch and watch movies for hours.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I think I watched over, oh man, a hundred plus movies.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_01: So many, so many movies.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_01: Like it was insane.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_01: Talk about an education.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, for real.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_01: And then it was like, okay, I was like, I know what I'm doing.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I want to write and direct movies from here on.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_01: That's how I got into it.
• 15:12
  Was there like a movie that like solidified that for you that
• 15:16
  you were like,
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_00: oh,
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_00: man,
• 15:17
  if I could like this director or this movie was just like eye
• 15:23
  opening in a very
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_00: different way?
• 15:24
  Or was it just like the process of filmmaking in general was
• 15:28
  like the thing that inspired you?
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I don't think it was one movie.
• 15:35
  It was just a combination of like...
• 15:38
  All the right things at the right time and the right place.
• 15:41
  Watching a ton of movies and then just falling in love with the
• 15:46
  worlds that these
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_01: creators were creating.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_01: And then because I was watching these movies with my mentor,
• 15:51
  we'd sit down and have these long discussions afterwards about
• 15:55
  what the filmmaker
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_01: is trying to do or what they said,
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_01: whether they said it on purpose or on accident.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_01: And so it was more than just a cool visual or something fun to do.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_01: It was like,
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_01: there's all this depth in there that I was like,
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_01: I had never discovered this before.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't know this was an option and it was not an option growing up.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_01: So it was something completely fresh to me.
• 16:14
  And I absolutely loved it because I tend to be a person who
• 16:18
  lives with their head in the clouds.
• 16:19
  And so movies are such a great way for me to be in the clouds,
• 16:23
  but also connect to reality.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_01: And I just absolutely loved it.
• 16:27
  dang that's well said i feel like i resonate with that idea
• 16:31
  maybe that's why i like
• 16:32
  movies so much yeah like the themes within movies are very
• 16:36
  grounded in reality on
• 16:37
  some level but then you can like be talking about star wars or
• 16:40
  whatever and uh yeah
• 16:44
  clearly not reality yeah i think like uh pete holmes has this
• 16:47
  bit and it's
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_01: incredible where he talks about like
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_01: how God is the tablecloth that we put over the creator of the universe,
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_01: like the framework of God.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_01: And it's because it's like we can't comprehend this guy.
• 17:01
  We can't comprehend this thing,
• 17:03
  but we need something to tangibly put our hands on.
• 17:05
  And so I think like movies in a lot of ways are able to put
• 17:08
  tangible things onto
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_01: untangible things.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_00: Like,
• 17:14
  cause you can understand fragments of God or fragments of like
• 17:17
  emotion or fragments
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_01: of all of our whole soul and being,
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_01: but you can never fully see it all at once with your own eyes,
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_01: heart,
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_01: soul,
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_01: whatever you need fragment.
• 17:26
  You need it to be broken up because we're so like limited in
• 17:30
  our humanity.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_01: And so these things like really make it tangible.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like,
• 17:33
  yes it's weird that a pirate movie or a sci-fi film or a movie
• 17:37
  about a guy who lost
• 17:37
  his job and goes on an adventure like does it for us but it
• 17:41
  does and storytelling
• 17:42
  has done that for like forever like yeah well and this is just
• 17:45
  one iteration
• 17:46
  nuanced and complex enough that like i don't know the human
• 17:49
  experience is so
• 17:51
  complex that you can break it down like you're saying and
• 17:54
  fragment it in these like
• 17:56
  i don't know you can talk about uh interstellar and you can
• 18:00
  talk about like
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_00: fatherhood and
• 18:02
  um like sacrifice or whatever yeah but you could spend the
• 18:05
  whole film i don't know
• 18:06
  if maybe that's the only theme in it i think there's other
• 18:09
  themes in it too but
• 18:10
  like um and that movie is hit or miss for me sometimes i need
• 18:15
  to re-watch it again
• 18:16
  at some point but um that's the first example that came to mind
• 18:20
  i think but yeah i
• 18:21
  think that's well said like movies do what i think like the the
• 18:27
  human experience
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_00: has a hard time like translating um
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think the human experience is super uncomfortable.
• 18:37
  Imagine trying to get everybody on the same page at the same
• 18:40
  time to handle
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_01: something uncomfortable.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_01: It's just impossible.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_01: Like we can do it one on one much easier.
• 18:45
  It's easier for us to come sit in and go deep and get real like
• 18:48
  specific about the
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_01: things going on in our heart and our life.
• 18:52
  when you graduate that to like mass in any scale like five
• 18:55
  people is harder than
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_01: one person yeah yeah thousands of people is harder than one person and so
• 18:59
  storytelling allows it to have the multi-facetedness that like
• 19:03
  brings you into the
• 19:04
  main thing without outing people before they're ready to be
• 19:07
  outed yeah yeah that's
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_00: really good dang i gotta think through that so like in this process of
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_00: like discovering film,
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_00: falling in love with film,
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_00: at what point are you like,
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_00: oh like films are written,
• 19:23
  like they're they're written with words on a page and then
• 19:28
  translated into all the
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_00: visuals and the music and the the complexity of what film is.
• 19:34
  Like at what point are you like,
• 19:36
  I think I need to be a writer in order to be a filmmaker.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_01: Honestly,
• 19:42
  it was like watching stuff that Tarantino has done or David
• 19:45
  Fincher has done or
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_01: Christopher Nolan has done.
• 19:47
  It's just like these huge directors that like are brilliant
• 19:51
  storytellers and seeing
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_01: what they've done on the screen and then realizing like
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_00: All of their stories have such themness in it.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_01: There's so much of themselves in it.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_01: And there's a lot of really good directors who work with writers.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_01: Spielberg works with a ton of great writers.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_01: But there was something about the creative control that I was like,
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_01: if I write,
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_01: I have naturally a lot more creative control.
• 20:13
  And I will absolutely have to give up chunks of that and a ton
• 20:17
  of it still.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_01: But there will be this...
• 20:22
  it doesn't feel like a ripoff there's something that feels like
• 20:24
  oh man i was here
• 20:25
  for the whole thing and that for whatever reason is important
• 20:28
  to me like i think
• 20:29
  i'd imagine like god willing hopefully in the future i get to
• 20:32
  work with some
• 20:32
  incredible writers and make their stuff come to yeah like full
• 20:35
  full uh like a full
• 20:37
  film um but i i i'm like if i can learn the whole process
• 20:42
  whether i end up being
• 20:43
  long-term writer or not i'll have a better understanding of the
• 20:46
  whole storytelling
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_01: mechanics and
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_01: Ultimately,
• 20:49
  I think like the conversations I have with any filmmaker friend
• 20:51
  of mine is like,
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_01: what is the whole point of this?
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_01: It's like the thing is the story.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_01: The story, the story, the story.
• 20:57
  It's like the format in which you play a story has an effect on
• 21:00
  how it's portrayed
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_01: or how it's understood.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_01: But ultimately, the story you're telling is what matters most.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_01: And so you can figure out how to tell a good story,
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_01: whether that's on paper,
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_01: whether that's through poetry,
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_01: whether that's in person,
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_01: whether that's on a silver screen.
• 21:13
  If you can figure out a story,
• 21:15
  you can get it out in all these different mediums.
• 21:18
  And so you're not trapped by like,
• 21:20
  oh,
• 21:20
  he only knows how to do directing for action films.
• 21:25
  And like,
• 21:25
  I can direct whatever I want because I have the ability to
• 21:27
  write whatever I want.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and there's something beautiful about that.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_01: And like in my process of like becoming a writer,
• 21:34
  I've learned that I'm way more interested in other facets of
• 21:37
  like story development
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_01: than even just film.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm just like, oh, I had no idea that I was interested in this or...
• 21:43
  um helping people get like their books made or poetry like in
• 21:48
  like uh published or
• 21:50
  like even just like i would be down to make a script and sell
• 21:52
  it now i was like i
• 21:53
  didn't think i'd be into that like i was gonna only because of
• 21:56
  the process of
• 21:56
  writing because of the process of writing and just like this is
• 22:00
  really good for me
• 22:00
  and i really like what i yeah who i'm becoming through the
• 22:03
  process outside of like
• 22:04
  the story i'm telling yeah this is really cool what is your
• 22:08
  writing process
• 22:11
  um it's a great question that's a big that's a big question you
• 22:14
  can take it in any
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_00: direction it's so hard to distill um it could be as abstract as like the
• 22:22
  inspiration around that or as practical as like every day i
• 22:26
  write three pages well
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_01: let me preface i'm a baby writer still i'm still so new to this but
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_01: my process like practically is like I write six days a week.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um,
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_01: most of the time I'll like wake up in the morning,
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_01: do my Bible and then I'll write for a little bit.
• 22:48
  It's not a lot of writing because I have work to get done and
• 22:51
  stuff like that,
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_01: but it's enough to stay in it every day.
• 22:55
  And I think like for me getting started with writing was the
• 22:57
  hardest thing of like,
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_01: how do I sit down and create with my brain?
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_01: And it was all this pressure.
• 23:01
  And I was like,
• 23:02
  if I just sit down and let whatever comes out,
• 23:04
  comes out,
• 23:04
  um,
• 23:05
  kind of pointed towards this current like film or whatever
• 23:08
  thing I'm telling right now.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_01: Something will come out that's good and a lot of it will come out as bad.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I'll be able to navigate that later.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_01: The most important thing for me right now,
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_01: this part of my journey is to be a writer,
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_01: which means you're writing often.
• 23:24
  And so I don't care if it works or it gets published or gets
• 23:28
  made into a screenplay
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_01: or a film or whatever.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_01: I just need to be the guy who's in the gym lifting the weight.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_01: That was the thing.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_01: So that's why I have that as my practical experience.
• 23:39
  that's huge and I feel like as I've like I tend to do like so
• 23:43
  much research to the
• 23:44
  point where it's like are you even gonna do the thing and so
• 23:47
  like in my research
• 23:48
  for like learning how to write and all that like how to hack it
• 23:51
  how to make it
• 23:52
  easier I'm just the more and more I'm in and I'm just like
• 23:55
  nobody really gets how
• 23:56
  to do this yeah they just figure out how do they get into the
• 23:59
  room how it works for
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_01: them yeah well kind of it's like how do I get myself into the room
• 24:04
  And then how do I separate myself from the piece enough to not
• 24:08
  hold on to what I
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_01: shouldn't and let go of my darlings a little bit?
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_01: And the rest of it is like this made-up glob of things that you can't...
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_01: It's intangible to a large degree.
• 24:21
  I've been thinking about that a lot recently,
• 24:23
  like how to get outside of yourself enough.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_00: Because I'm very much like a planner...
• 24:30
  and like i love building documentation and thinking about like
• 24:34
  oh this is a process
• 24:35
  i'm going to do to like systematize and optimize and automate
• 24:39
  this and it's like
• 24:41
  the the the differentiator between like me and someone that
• 24:46
  like gets stuff done is
• 24:48
  like they they don't get caught in the process of like they
• 24:52
  figure out like oh what
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_00: works for me and then they like go and do that thing there's action
• 24:56
  that's like within that and so when i hear like i just
• 25:00
  consistently like i am a
• 25:02
  writer so i write like i'm not like trying to be a writer so i
• 25:06
  like write every
• 25:07
  month or whatever it's like no no i'm like in a word document
• 25:11
  like writing words
• 25:13
  and and like it is that complicated and it's that simple at the
• 25:17
  same time like yeah
• 25:18
  obviously in order to get to be a better writer there's
• 25:21
  technique and and you can
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_00: learn from so many different sources but like then
• 25:26
  the the actual act of doing the workout like you're not going
• 25:30
  to get stronger if
• 25:31
  you don't go to the gym and like lift weights and there's
• 25:34
  there's good like uh
• 25:37
  technique and stuff in order that you can do that healthily and
• 25:41
  not like die while
• 25:42
  you yeah work out but um yeah it is such a i don't know it's
• 25:47
  such a convicting
• 25:48
  reminder to me to be like oh is this something that you are or
• 25:52
  you want to be yeah
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_00: um
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_00: And like the people that are just like do it.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, they do.
• 26:00
  And I find that convicting because a lot of the time I get
• 26:03
  caught in the process of
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_00: oh,
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_00: man,
• 26:06
  like I just I have the perfect plan and I've written it all
• 26:09
  down and it's there in
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_00: a document or whatever.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_00: But I'm not like moving it forward.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just sitting with it basically because it's like,
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_00: oh,
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_00: whenever I have time to do that,
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_00: then I'll do it.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's interesting.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_00: I like action versus just like thinking about it forever.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think like
• 26:32
  so much of like growing up and being an adult and like so much
• 26:36
  of scripture points
• 26:37
  us towards us where it's like life is a dance taking action is
• 26:40
  a dance taking
• 26:41
  action is not an on switch it's a dance and so there's back and
• 26:44
  forth there's it's
• 26:45
  this muddy middle gray you don't always see it clearly but it
• 26:47
  comes out into
• 26:48
  something so it's this dance and and whatever your black and
• 26:51
  white parameters are
• 26:52
  your guard rails those are there like they're only helpful if
• 26:55
  they get you to do
• 26:56
  the dance if they're not getting you to do the dance they're
• 26:58
  not helpful anymore
• 26:59
  So it's like whatever process or rules or guidelines or systems
• 27:04
  you need in place
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_01: that get you into the thing,
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_01: into the doing the action dance,
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_01: which feels weird because it isn't,
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_01: um,
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_01: taking action doesn't always provide results in the way you want.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_01: Some results will come of it, but it doesn't just guarantee an outcome.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_01: And we create all these systems to guarantee outcome.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like, you can't actually guarantee any outcome period.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_01: Like you just can't like,
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_01: That's the beauty of the way the world was created.
• 27:28
  It's like you can try and it's going to come out different
• 27:30
  almost every time.
• 27:31
  So whatever gets you into the room or whatever gets you to take
• 27:34
  action works.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_00: Do that.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_01: And if it doesn't, then I would say move on to the next thing.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_00: Is there like a creative decision that you made recently,
• 27:44
  like where you stepped into the dance and you were surprised by
• 27:48
  like the outcome of
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_00: it?
• 27:50
  um yeah like you were maybe pulled in a different direction
• 27:53
  than you thought you
• 27:54
  were gonna go by like doing that create making that creative
• 27:58
  decision like whether
• 28:01
  it was with writing or filmmaking like if there's an example
• 28:05
  within that where it
• 28:06
  was like i thought this was going to be the outcome and i
• 28:08
  actually like learned
• 28:09
  this other lesson because i like stepped into it and and
• 28:12
  stepped into the messy
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_00: middle and actually did the action um
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_01: I think in a lot of ways, I'm in what feels like a creative rut.
• 28:23
  I'm not producing what I thought I would be producing in this
• 28:26
  last two months.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_00: What was it that you thought you wanted to be producing?
• 28:31
  It was just a myriad of things between my own working on the
• 28:35
  film and the story.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_01: I'm in development on a story right now.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm trying to get a really...
• 28:41
  decent first draft done and so I'm still in the first draft
• 28:44
  phase and so like
• 28:46
  showing up for that has been one thing that I've been trying to
• 28:48
  do and then showing
• 28:50
  up from even just my day job which involves me like editing
• 28:53
  videos and being
• 28:53
  creative and I love it but I haven't been producing at like the
• 28:56
  quality that I want
• 28:56
  to be producing and so feeling like I've been in a little bit
• 29:00
  of a rut when it
• 29:01
  comes to the outcomes that I've been expecting but then where I
• 29:07
  found myself is
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_01: I've a little bit found myself overworked
• 29:11
  exhausted due to myself and taking on too much in preparation
• 29:15
  for this next season
• 29:15
  of life where I like multiple multiple times now I've been like
• 29:22
  in my like morning
• 29:24
  devotional prayer time or whatever I'm not like God I'm at the
• 29:27
  end of myself dude I
• 29:28
  got nothing left to give this thing and so the thing I think
• 29:31
  I've actually been
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_01: learning through like like feeling like my foot is on the gas and
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_01: but all of my outcomes, all of the things I'm producing suck.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_01: They feel like they suck.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_01: And to a degree, they probably do.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um, where it's like, this isn't the best I've ever done.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_01: Like I've created better things than this.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_01: And people have been like, wow.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm creating things now.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_01: I'm kind of like,
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_00: eh,
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_01: um,
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_01: the thing that it's like taught me,
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_01: if anything is like,
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_01: just get in there and do it.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_01: Like do the dance.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_01: It feels good to do the dance.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_01: It feels really good to do the dance, even if the outcome is sucking.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_01: And, um,
• 30:06
  yeah that's what i think but like the foundation of that is
• 30:09
  like just because of
• 30:10
  the busyness of life because of the like tiredness of the
• 30:14
  season like maybe the
• 30:17
  work that you're uh the results of the work that you're doing
• 30:22
  are are like not
• 30:23
  where you want them to be even if they're like still
• 30:26
  professional quality and and
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_00: good they're just like creatively not where you want them to be
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, they're creatively not where I would like them to sit.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 30:37
  If you do a quality comparison in terms of as objective as you
• 30:41
  can get with
• 30:41
  creativity compared to stuff that I've done in the past couple
• 30:45
  years to the stuff
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_01: that if you took the last probably month and a half,
• 30:49
  two months now of my work and you just isolated it and compared
• 30:52
  it to my best work
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_01: in my past,
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_01: it's not the most creative looking or interesting looking.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_01: It feels like in a lot of ways that I'm like,
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_01: Just getting it to done.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's true.
• 31:04
  And I actually am really grateful that I've been in that season
• 31:06
  because it's really
• 31:08
  forced me to be like live open-handedly and live surrendered
• 31:12
  where I'm like,
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not even the most stoked on the stuff I'm making.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_01: Not because I'm like, I hate what I do.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_01: It's actually, I really love what I do.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_01: And there's a lot of purpose in the season I'm in.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_01: And so I'm feeling challenged to just be like, well,
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_01: I am not enough alone.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think that's the lesson I'm learning is like,
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_01: I am not enough alone,
• 31:36
  whether that's just in feeling like good enough as a man or
• 31:40
  whether that's like
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_01: even as a creator,
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_01: like to actually make stuff,
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not enough alone.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_01: I need other voices from friends and family and inner circle and teams,
• 31:49
  but I also need like outer voices that are like God's voice to
• 31:53
  actually like
• 31:53
  somehow give me a little bit of wind that I don't feel like I
• 31:56
  have on my own.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_01: And living in that surrounded place has like left me this,
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_01: Just as like, oh.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_00: So you're getting back to that place now.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_01: I'm tired, I'm exhausted.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I'm tired, I'm exhausted.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_01: That hasn't left me.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_01: I'm at the end of myself.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like I have nothing left to give, but I'm not burned out.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_01: I don't feel like I'm spiraling into a dark place.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like,
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_01: the next season of things,
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_01: as I learn this new lesson of reliance and open-handedness,
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_01: is actually going to produce the best work.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_01: Honestly, it's like letting a lot of
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_01: My expectations die.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_01: And living in the pain of that.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_01: And the only way to get through is to go through it with God.
• 32:38
  I'm anticipating the other side is going to be so much more
• 32:43
  fruitful in a healthy way.
• 32:44
  Right now,
• 32:45
  I'm like,
• 32:45
  I just have been pruned because all my fruit is dying.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_00: And this sucks.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_01: But I, the plant, am not dead.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_01: And I feel very alive, but my fruit feels very dead.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you're going to flourish because of the pruning.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_00: Dang.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 32:58
  what what's like a way not at all a way to answer the question
• 33:01
  it's like off on a
• 33:01
  trail but no i think that's good well i think like the main
• 33:05
  thing that i'm always
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_00: trying to do with these questions because like the whole reason for these
• 33:10
  conversation is like uh talking to people i deeply respect and
• 33:14
  love and want to
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_00: like
• 33:16
  hear their journey so that i can like take perspective from
• 33:20
  their journey and like
• 33:21
  apply it to my own life um and so like that's like the whole
• 33:26
  idea of the the these
• 33:29
  conversations to me is just like um i don't know like maybe
• 33:35
  someone else gets some
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_00: value from
• 33:37
  from these conversations yeah but the i think the main value
• 33:42
  recipient is me and
• 33:44
  and getting to record well i'm glad i hope this is helpful
• 33:46
  getting to record it and
• 33:47
  uh i don't know when shelby and i were were traveling um a
• 33:52
  couple years back like
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_00: one of the
• 33:55
  Most helpful exercises and really hard exercises was like
• 33:59
  creating videos that we
• 34:00
  put up on YouTube or whatever But it was such a like a
• 34:04
  challenging creative process
• 34:06
  to distill down like what we were doing on that trip and then
• 34:10
  like Synthesize it
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_00: into like a 30 40 minute video or whatever.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah
• 34:16
  um that came out like every couple weeks but to be able to look
• 34:20
  back on that and
• 34:21
  and see little moments of clarity that we had at that time that
• 34:25
  we haven't lost now
• 34:26
  because we recorded it um and i like yeah that's like so much
• 34:31
  of this experiment to
• 34:32
  me is is like these recorded conversations being able to look
• 34:36
  back at them in 5 10
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_00: 20 years and be like oh like i completely
• 34:44
  thought about this thing in a very different way than I think
• 34:46
  about it now and I
• 34:48
  only could have known that thing or understood that perspective
• 34:53
  like through the
• 34:53
  conversation that I was having with John or David or whoever it
• 34:57
  is almost like a
• 34:59
  journal entry or something yeah it is sort of like a it's like
• 35:03
  a collaborative
• 35:03
  journal entry yeah where like I'm just fascinated by like the
• 35:07
  experience that
• 35:08
  you've had up until now and we're both like pretty early on in
• 35:12
  the journey of life
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_00: I think
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's like,
• 35:16
  how do we capture that in like a way that can remind us
• 35:22
  throughout the journey of
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_00: oh,
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_00: this is where we've been.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_00: This is where we are now.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_00: And it's probably way different than where we've been.
• 35:28
  and then like this is where we hope to go but like who knows
• 35:32
  where that journey
• 35:33
  leads and all that kind of stuff so um this is like the the
• 35:37
  infinite value to me of
• 35:39
  these conversations where it's like you processing through like
• 35:42
  oh yeah like this
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_00: this is how i'm thinking about this thing um yeah
• 35:46
  but at the same time like so helpful to me and and the
• 35:50
  perspectives that i'm trying
• 35:51
  to grow from and learn from because i don't know i think so
• 35:55
  much of my life has
• 35:56
  been like listening and understanding other people's
• 36:00
  perspectives and that's like
• 36:01
  where so many of the gains have happened in my life absolutely
• 36:04
  um yeah so i feel
• 36:07
  like the mentorship of of people and the conversations and the
• 36:11
  open-handedness that
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_00: you're talking about um especially when you're talking about like
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_00: Like,
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_00: I'm so curious,
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_00: what are the things,
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_00: like if you're coming out of a season of pruning,
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_00: like what are the things that fill you up,
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_00: that get you excited about like whatever is next on the horizon?
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_00: Like,
• 36:30
  how do you kind of find that equilibrium and that peace in the
• 36:34
  challenge of the
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_00: current season?
• 36:37
  And then like,
• 36:38
  whether that's like super practical or a mindset or a
• 36:40
  framework.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 36:43
  and then like apply that to this season to kind of like see it
• 36:48
  with fresh eyes.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I think I've stolen a lot from my mentors.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_01: I have not figured any of it out,
• 36:58
  like just applying practices that they've suggested over the
• 37:01
  years and tweaking
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_01: them and experimenting,
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_01: like just practical experimentation,
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_01: like taking action on them in small ways.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_01: So that's like the practical piece of it.
• 37:11
  But really what it has been is just like there has been a
• 37:16
  couple big moments where
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_01: like I tend to be a really anxious person.
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I should say I have been in the past.
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not really much anymore.
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_01: And there was a couple moments last year where I was just like,
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_01: all right,
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_01: God,
• 37:32
  I need to experience you in this other way because I feel like
• 37:35
  I'm cutting myself
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_01: off at the knees.
• 37:38
  and i like fasted for three days last year and that was like
• 37:41
  the beginning of a
• 37:42
  whole new season of life that i feel like has led into now a
• 37:45
  bit of pruning um
• 37:47
  where i was like okay i can't foresee all this stuff i need to
• 37:50
  like give it to you
• 37:51
  basically i was like god i don't want to be an anxious person
• 37:53
  anymore like i want
• 37:54
  to get my finances under control i want to learn how to budget
• 37:57
  well because it's
• 37:57
  like i can't control necessarily how much i make like to degree
• 38:00
  i can go out there
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_01: and do as much work as i can but
• 38:03
  um all of that work has been given to me as a gift i haven't
• 38:06
  really like taking
• 38:07
  stuff just doesn't work it ends up killing the the plants
• 38:11
  you're you're developing
• 38:13
  whatever or the relationships you're developing it's just like
• 38:15
  that has never
• 38:16
  worked for me so like knocking on doors seeing what's available
• 38:20
  and then following
• 38:21
  what's available has like always worked and so um i was just
• 38:25
  like all right god
• 38:25
  like what are the things i have control of like really it's
• 38:28
  like i can control how
• 38:29
  much money i spend i can control how much time i'm spending
• 38:31
  with you and so that
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_01: led me
• 38:34
  a little bit into this just like all right god i'm gonna trust
• 38:36
  you with all the
• 38:37
  things and then my wife and i in december um one of our
• 38:42
  roommates came to us and i
• 38:43
  was like hey um i'm gonna be moving out and that meant we were
• 38:47
  like oh that's a big
• 38:48
  shift for our like life like uh in terms of financially like
• 38:51
  our rent will shift um
• 38:53
  with our roommates and our like housing situation so we were
• 38:56
  like kind of preparing
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_01: for the month and then
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um, we were like, what are we going to do for Christmas gifts?
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like,
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_01: babe,
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_01: like our budget is so tight and knowing what's coming up,
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know that we can.
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_01: And she's, she was like, well, what if I like sold coffee syrups?
• 39:09
  And this is the thing we've done a couple of times to fundraise
• 39:11
  money for,
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_01: um,
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_01: like mission strips and stuff.
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_01: And she's like,
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_01: what if I,
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_01: sell,
• 39:15
  try and sell some extra syrups this month so that we can do
• 39:17
  gifts for people.
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_01: Cause like, I want to do gifts for people.
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_01: I was like,
• 39:20
  oh all of that goes towards that like any extra gigs I get I
• 39:23
  can put towards that
• 39:23
  like not a big deal I just want to know like our you know what
• 39:26
  we have to pay for
• 39:27
  this month and the upcoming month like we're saving for that
• 39:30
  and we're being wise
• 39:31
  with our spending really just trying to budget our money yeah
• 39:35
  and then it was like
• 39:36
  I got two gigs that I did not expect and she got multiple gigs
• 39:39
  that she didn't
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_01: expect and that we're like whoa that's crazy
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_01: And so we're like roommates moving out.
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_01: God provided all this extra cash for some reason or like,
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_01: and we give,
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_01: we give fully give credit to God on that.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_01: We're like, these opportunities came our way.
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_01: We're like, Whoa, what the heck?
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then we're like, what if we're like, what if we're pregnant?
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_01: Like,
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_01: this would be crazy,
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_01: but it would be,
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_01: it was like kind of like one of those things was like,
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_01: it's so obvious.
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_01: Like, of course we'd be pregnant right now.
• 40:03
  Like we just got like this kind of like this emotional boost of
• 40:06
  like,
• 40:07
  uh,
• 40:07
  confidence almost.
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_00: And you've been practicing a bunch.
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, it's true.
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then we're like,
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_01: oh my gosh, we're pregnant.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_01: And so our year completely shifted.
• 40:19
  And then we looked at each other one night and we were talking
• 40:22
  about all the stuff
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_01: that's going on in our life and feeling so grateful,
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_01: feeling the frustration of the hardness of the season.
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_01: And we were like,
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like God was like,
• 40:31
  SPEAKER_01: hey,
• 40:32
  I'm going to show you my goodness because something big is
• 40:37
  about to happen that
• 40:37
  SPEAKER_01: might scare you if you didn't know how good I was already.
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_01: And that's what I felt like.
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_01: I felt like God was like, by the way, I'm this good.
• 40:44
  here's the scary thing yeah and then i feel like we've been in
• 40:46
  a cycle of like
• 40:47
  here's the scary thing and then god's like but look how big i
• 40:51
  am remember how big i
• 40:52
  am yeah and that is what has gotten me through this like season
• 40:55
  of pruning where
• 40:56
  i'm just like i have enough like really like hard fact evidence
• 41:01
  that i can tell my
• 41:02
  brain and my brain is bought into it at this point where i'm
• 41:05
  just like god is so
• 41:07
  good that even through whatever i'm losing or whatever feels
• 41:11
  like pruning whatever
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_01: sucks
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_01: whatever's on the other side is going to be way, way, way better.
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_01: And unexpected.
• 41:19
  SPEAKER_01: Unexpected.
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_01: Oftentimes in line with the life I'm already living.
• 41:22
  So it's not like God's going to be like,
• 41:25
  and some people have experienced this.
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_01: We haven't experienced it yet where he's like,
• 41:29
  you're going to go from working like one job to now you're a
• 41:33
  missionary on the
• 41:34
  SPEAKER_01: other side of the world.
• 41:35
  That's always been one of my like the traditional way I've
• 41:37
  thought about it.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_01: It's like if I surrender everything to God, he's going to like...
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_00: He's going to move me to Zimbabwe.
• 41:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
• 41:43
  SPEAKER_01: he's going to like,
• 41:43
  SPEAKER_01: he's like,
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_01: oh,
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_01: I don't care about any of the things you're interested in,
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_01: John.
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_01: You're going to do this now.
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_01: And like that has always sounded really crappy to me.
• 41:50
  And so like I was really resistant to this like full surrender
• 41:53
  in ways like I
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_01: didn't even know that I was resistant to.
• 41:57
  SPEAKER_01: And so as I've like surrendered more...
• 41:59
  SPEAKER_01: I'm realizing, oh, you've pointed me in this direction already.
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_01: You have,
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_01: I'm on the right track,
• 42:04
  SPEAKER_01: but it's like I'm looking through a hazy,
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_01: window,
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_01: where it's like,
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_01: I can kind of make up the shapes.
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_01: He's like,
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_01: exactly,
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_01: you can kind of make up the shapes,
• 42:12
  SPEAKER_01: but if you let me take you to the other side,
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_01: I'll show you that the shapes are bigger,
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_01: better,
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_01: greater,
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_01: more colorful than you could ever imagine.
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_01: But I'm still locked in on the shapes as they are,
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_01: that I have been yet to,
• 42:21
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 42:22
  SPEAKER_01: surrender them.
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_01: And so as I've surrendered,
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like some of that stuff has been brought through the window,
• 42:28
  SPEAKER_01: and...
• 42:28
  SPEAKER_01: it's less hazy and it's bigger,
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_01: better,
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_01: more interesting,
• 42:31
  SPEAKER_01: more creative than I could have ever imagined.
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's what gets me through.
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_01: And so like,
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_01: I'm so excited for whatever's on the other side of this season,
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_01: whether,
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_01: whether I actually ever get to write a direct ever.
• 42:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 42:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I would love to, I feel pointed in that direction.
• 42:43
  SPEAKER_00: You've given that, you've given that up.
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_00: And,
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_00: and like,
• 42:47
  SPEAKER_00: as weird as it sounds,
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_00: like you have the best shot of doing that now because of giving that up.
• 42:53
  That's where like the,
• 42:54
  like I feel so good in the action taken because I'm like,
• 42:57
  i don't i kind of don't care if this happens i just feel really
• 42:59
  good that i'm doing
• 43:00
  things yeah like i feel good that the action in some way is
• 43:04
  happening and i almost
• 43:05
  the outcome almost doesn't matter yeah yeah okay so what i'm
• 43:09
  hearing is like the
• 43:10
  things that fill you up like and that reduce the anxiety that
• 43:14
  you felt are actually
• 43:15
  SPEAKER_00: like instead of trying to hold on to everything it's just like
• 43:19
  actually letting go yeah and like being like you know god
• 43:22
  you're you're good enough
• 43:23
  to like get us through these tough things yeah and and actually
• 43:26
  we're gonna like be
• 43:28
  we're gonna meet you in that and be like generous um yeah also
• 43:32
  um giving up our
• 43:33
  time our finance like uh as as weird as it is it almost sounds
• 43:37
  like the budgeting
• 43:38
  SPEAKER_00: practicality of like getting that under control um
• 43:42
  is less about like having the control of it but more about like
• 43:46
  how can we be
• 43:46
  generous and new in different ways yeah that's what I'm hearing
• 43:50
  yeah because like
• 43:53
  we don't want to live from a place of like exhaustedness of
• 43:57
  stress or anything like
• 43:58
  that where it's like how could we give our like how do you
• 44:02
  expect to be a good
• 44:02
  parent if you're so stressed out that you can't even like take
• 44:05
  care of your body
• 44:06
  yeah it's like that's not no way to live and like it doesn't
• 44:09
  feel aligned with
• 44:11
  SPEAKER_01: healthy living
• 44:12
  in terms of like American standards or healthy living in terms
• 44:15
  of biblical
• 44:15
  standards like it just doesn't add up so it's how do we develop
• 44:19
  systems or like
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_01: things that help us live from that place so then now we can go
• 44:23
  live and give abundantly in a way that just like doesn't make
• 44:26
  sense that's
• 44:27
  beautiful dang yeah i needed to hear that this morning so glad
• 44:32
  i feel like uh i'm
• 44:34
  i'm in a season like that where it's like uh it's very much
• 44:38
  nebulous big question
• 44:39
  marks and uh i don't know even even uh i just transitioned out
• 44:44
  of a job like a
• 44:46
  SPEAKER_00: month ago basically and i'm very much in the season of like
• 44:51
  uh the penny pinching mindset and i've always been like yeah
• 44:55
  like had more of a
• 44:56
  like glass half full kind of abundance mindset as opposed to
• 44:59
  like a scarcity like
• 45:01
  hold on to what you have yeah like super frugal and so this is
• 45:04
  a new season for me
• 45:06
  like being practical in the ways that you're talking about
• 45:08
  where it's like we're
• 45:09
  SPEAKER_00: living into the budget like
• 45:10
  SPEAKER_00: We're doing our best to not spend extra.
• 45:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 45:14
  Because those,
• 45:14
  to your point,
• 45:15
  are the control levers that we have at our disposal.
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 45:20
  SPEAKER_00: And then like within living within our means, like how do we be generous?
• 45:24
  Because that was like a conversation I have with myself was
• 45:26
  like when I lost this
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_00: last role,
• 45:29
  SPEAKER_00: it was like,
• 45:30
  SPEAKER_00: oh,
• 45:30
  do I want to like turn off the charity and the donations and
• 45:35
  like the tithing at
• 45:36
  SPEAKER_00: church or whatever?
• 45:37
  SPEAKER_00: And it was like, oh.
• 45:38
  that's like clearly no like yeah that is not like i need to be
• 45:43
  divorcing myself
• 45:44
  from that idea of like even in challenging times financially or
• 45:49
  whatever how how
• 45:50
  SPEAKER_00: can we be generous in what we're doing um and i think there's wisdom and
• 45:55
  SPEAKER_00: discernment within that but like
• 45:57
  oh yeah how you give changes depending on what you have
• 46:00
  available yeah and so i
• 46:01
  think it was just such a good reminder of like oh this this
• 46:05
  this little season of
• 46:06
  like not of figuring out what the next thing is is like how do
• 46:10
  i give that to god
• 46:12
  which is easy to say it's hard to live into i think it's so
• 46:16
  hard saying it is so
• 46:17
  easy yeah i'm so fast it's like of course you give credit to
• 46:20
  god it's like totally
• 46:21
  SPEAKER_01: but when you live it out it feels like
• 46:24
  yeah no it works well and that's yeah i think that's to your
• 46:27
  point the daily
• 46:27
  disciplines of like i i am these things and so i'm going to
• 46:33
  continue pushing action
• 46:36
  SPEAKER_00: and living into the dance of these things um and then like that's what
• 46:42
  checking in with god all the time to know that like oh these
• 46:45
  are the things that he
• 46:46
  says that i am yeah um and know know your guys with
• 46:49
  relationship well enough that
• 46:51
  like uh when to change course and move to zimbabwe or whatever
• 46:56
  versus like oh i'm
• 46:58
  gonna live and again easier said than done but um or easier
• 47:03
  said than yeah i guess
• 47:05
  SPEAKER_00: done um where it's like he he actually like
• 47:09
  made you a certain way and gave you the unique skills and
• 47:12
  talents to like push you
• 47:14
  in a certain direction and sometimes he'll completely flip that
• 47:18
  for his own
• 47:19
  purposes but a lot of the time he's just like yeah yeah yeah
• 47:22
  like i made you to be
• 47:23
  SPEAKER_00: a storyteller like
• 47:25
  continue to grow that muscle yeah yeah yeah um rather than like
• 47:29
  have some huge
• 47:30
  revelation about like i need to move to the other side of the
• 47:33
  world or whatever but
• 47:35
  i feel like that is something i need to hear all the time
• 47:38
  especially in this season
• 47:39
  where it's like what is the next thing like i know it's around
• 47:43
  the corner but then
• 47:44
  how do i live presently and and be in the moment and not be
• 47:48
  anxious about like
• 47:49
  SPEAKER_00: whatever that next thing is um yeah yeah
• 47:53
  SPEAKER_00: But especially, yeah, we're going to say.
• 47:55
  SPEAKER_01: I just like the thing you said,
• 47:56
  you said about like the mysteries of the future and how not to
• 47:59
  live anxiously.
• 47:59
  SPEAKER_01: I just like,
• 48:00
  SPEAKER_01: it makes me think of the hazy window illustration where I'm just like,
• 48:05
  SPEAKER_01: you can see the horizon,
• 48:07
  SPEAKER_01: but you can't quite make out the horizon,
• 48:09
  SPEAKER_01: but it's so big.
• 48:11
  that's what the next corner is and what's so great about it
• 48:14
  being like kind of
• 48:14
  mysterious is like mysteries are fun mysteries are so fun like
• 48:18
  have you ever solved
• 48:19
  a puzzle and felt so good mysteries are so fun it's just like i
• 48:23
  love them and so
• 48:24
  what better way than to like to design humanity to work than to
• 48:30
  say i'm gonna give
• 48:31
  you a big fat mystery that you're oh you're gonna be so
• 48:33
  interested in solving
• 48:34
  but I'm going to make it just blurry enough that you're almost
• 48:37
  forced to live present.
• 48:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 48:39
  SPEAKER_01: And so for those of us who are caught in this spiral of anxiety,
• 48:43
  SPEAKER_01: I really think we're living misaligned.
• 48:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 48:45
  SPEAKER_01: Because it's like, you're missing the point.
• 48:48
  Like if you can untwist yourself a little bit and learn how to
• 48:52
  be enamored by the
• 48:54
  SPEAKER_01: mystery and excited about it,
• 48:56
  SPEAKER_01: but also live presently,
• 48:58
  SPEAKER_01: like that is how you live through season.
• 49:01
  SPEAKER_01: Cause it's like,
• 49:02
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know what the next thing is, but I have an idea.
• 49:04
  SPEAKER_01: And I wonder if I'm right.
• 49:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 49:06
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, I'm so excited.
• 49:08
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, what a fun place to live.
• 49:09
  SPEAKER_01: And there's highs and lows in that as well.
• 49:11
  SPEAKER_00: Rather than the opposite of that.
• 49:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 49:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 49:14
  SPEAKER_00: No, that's such a good reminder.
• 49:16
  SPEAKER_00: Because then it's an adventure.
• 49:18
  It's not like an anxiety-inducing,
• 49:21
  like,
• 49:22
  oh my gosh,
• 49:22
  I just need some security.
• 49:24
  SPEAKER_00: I need to figure this out.
• 49:25
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah.
• 49:26
  SPEAKER_00: No, that's...
• 49:27
  SPEAKER_00: I need to talk to you more whenever I'm feeling down.
• 49:30
  SPEAKER_00: Just have my pep talks from John.
• 49:33
  SPEAKER_00: I'm so glad I could give it to you.
• 49:35
  SPEAKER_00: Dude.
• 49:37
  But you mentioned something like even as you step into
• 49:40
  parenthood and you think
• 49:42
  SPEAKER_00: about that next season,
• 49:44
  SPEAKER_00: like I'm curious because I was thinking about this this morning.
• 49:49
  SPEAKER_00: Is there like a...
• 49:51
  obviously mentors are shaping that and is there like a I'm this
• 49:55
  is more of a dumb
• 49:56
  question but like is there a movie that's like shaping like
• 50:00
  your any ideas about
• 50:01
  parenthood or like fatherhood um and if there's not obviously
• 50:05
  that's fine but I'm
• 50:07
  curious I don't know that there's a ton of stuff that I've
• 50:09
  reminisced on but um man
• 50:12
  last year when that Iron Claw movie came out with Zac Efron I
• 50:16
  watched that with um
• 50:17
  SPEAKER_01: a friend of mine and
• 50:19
  SPEAKER_01: At the end of it, like, have you seen that movie?
• 50:21
  SPEAKER_01: No, not yet.
• 50:22
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, my gosh.
• 50:23
  SPEAKER_01: You should go watch it, especially as a dad.
• 50:24
  SPEAKER_01: It's going to break your heart in the best way.
• 50:27
  SPEAKER_01: At the end of the movie,
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_01: there's a scene where the main character is with his two,
• 50:31
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 50:32
  SPEAKER_01: little boys.
• 50:33
  SPEAKER_01: And the son, like, utters a phrase to the dad...
• 50:38
  the dad has just gone through loss after loss after loss but
• 50:43
  he's like a parent and
• 50:44
  he's got a wife and two boys that he just loves dearly and the
• 50:47
  thing the son says
• 50:49
  um without spoiling it just absolutely melts the father's heart
• 50:52
  and it melted my
• 50:52
  heart and so i think about that where it's just like like i
• 50:57
  mean the story of a dad
• 50:59
  in a lot of ways is like how do you provide for your family and
• 51:02
  also be present
• 51:02
  SPEAKER_01: with them i think especially in american culture and so
• 51:06
  um dude if there was like one question that you could have like
• 51:10
  timed more perfect
• 51:12
  like that is the question that i'm asking myself these days oh
• 51:16
  yeah like the end of
• 51:18
  that movie it just made me think like it's about a dad who's
• 51:21
  wrestling with like
• 51:21
  the hardship of his life and adulthood and being a man and
• 51:24
  being a father and
• 51:25
  literally wrestling and then being with his parents yeah and
• 51:27
  literally and
• 51:28
  wrestling literally involved in it um beautiful definitely 10
• 51:31
  out of 10 watch you
• 51:32
  SPEAKER_01: should go watch it this week all right um yeah
• 51:35
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 51:36
  SPEAKER_00: Dang.
• 51:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 51:37
  I feel that every day,
• 51:38
  that tension of like how to be present,
• 51:41
  but then also provide.
• 51:43
  SPEAKER_00: And also like,
• 51:44
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know,
• 51:45
  SPEAKER_00: especially to your point in the American culture that we live in,
• 51:48
  SPEAKER_00: where it's just like,
• 51:49
  SPEAKER_00: it doesn't feel like both of those things can be true at the same time,
• 51:53
  SPEAKER_00: where it's like,
• 51:54
  SPEAKER_00: if you're,
• 51:55
  SPEAKER_00: if you're a good dad providing for your family,
• 51:57
  SPEAKER_00: you're like always busy figuring out how to provide.
• 52:01
  SPEAKER_00: And then if you're like a loser,
• 52:04
  SPEAKER_00: dad that's like around all the time,
• 52:06
  SPEAKER_00: then it's like,
• 52:06
  SPEAKER_00: oh,
• 52:07
  SPEAKER_00: well,
• 52:07
  SPEAKER_00: you're not providing,
• 52:07
  SPEAKER_00: but you're like available all the time.
• 52:10
  yeah and maybe my my framework is like so black and white that
• 52:15
  life is never like
• 52:15
  that it's always not super messy and gray and it's like is
• 52:19
  there some version of
• 52:20
  the two that can exist at the same time and of course there is
• 52:23
  yeah but it's just
• 52:25
  like it feels like it's either like there's more on one side
• 52:30
  than the other side
• 52:32
  SPEAKER_00: like it's not equal ever yeah
• 52:35
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm curious to, we'll check in when, uh, when, when's baby due?
• 52:41
  SPEAKER_01: August 30th.
• 52:42
  SPEAKER_00: Dang.
• 52:43
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 52:43
  SPEAKER_00: That's the best month to be born.
• 52:45
  SPEAKER_00: You say that biasly?
• 52:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 52:47
  SPEAKER_00: Very biasly.
• 52:48
  SPEAKER_01: We have a couple of friends that are late August birthdays.
• 52:51
  SPEAKER_01: And then,
• 52:51
  SPEAKER_01: um,
• 52:52
  SPEAKER_01: one of our best friends,
• 52:53
  SPEAKER_01: their,
• 52:53
  SPEAKER_01: their baby boy,
• 52:54
  SPEAKER_01: there's going to be two,
• 52:55
  SPEAKER_01: I think,
• 52:57
  SPEAKER_01: uh,
• 52:57
  SPEAKER_01: or one.
• 52:58
  SPEAKER_01: We won this year.
• 52:58
  SPEAKER_01: He's also like a late August birthday.
• 53:00
  SPEAKER_01: So we're like, we're super excited for that season.
• 53:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 53:02
  SPEAKER_00: No, that's too excited.
• 53:03
  SPEAKER_01: Why do you say though, like, um,
• 53:06
  SPEAKER_01: Or you say it's so,
• 53:06
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 53:07
  SPEAKER_01: that question of,
• 53:08
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 53:08
  SPEAKER_01: how do you be present and,
• 53:09
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 53:09
  SPEAKER_01: working is so prominent for you right now.
• 53:12
  I think one of the main reasons is that I have,
• 53:15
  like,
• 53:15
  an entrepreneurial bent in general.
• 53:18
  SPEAKER_00: And so I tend to,
• 53:21
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 53:21
  SPEAKER_00: live in my head a lot where I'm,
• 53:23
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 53:24
  SPEAKER_00: constantly thinking about different ideas and,
• 53:26
  SPEAKER_00: like...
• 53:29
  mostly for the worst i don't think for the better like i'm
• 53:31
  constantly fantasizing
• 53:33
  about like oh man if i did this thing and it worked out then i
• 53:36
  would do this thing
• 53:37
  and it would be really cool and successful or whatever um and
• 53:40
  like a lot of the
• 53:41
  time i'm just like that it's hard for me to switch off like the
• 53:46
  future from the
• 53:47
  present and be like oh i'm in the moment i'm like playing with
• 53:50
  my daughter
• 53:51
  having an amazing time and like I mean to be honest like some
• 53:57
  of those times are
• 53:57
  really boring for me like like sitting at her little art table
• 54:02
  and like coloring
• 54:03
  with her I want that to be a really like meaningful beautiful
• 54:06
  time but a lot of the
• 54:07
  time it's like I like living in my head about like whatever
• 54:10
  fantasy whatever
• 54:11
  SPEAKER_00: entrepreneurial fantasy yeah I'm more interested in at the time and so I
• 54:15
  like it's convicting to me that I like want to be I want to be
• 54:19
  present in those
• 54:20
  moments with her and like be there for her and I realize like
• 54:25
  after the moments
• 54:25
  past how beautiful a moment like that is but a lot of the time
• 54:29
  I'm stuck in my own
• 54:30
  head about like oh this entrepreneurial idea would be like so
• 54:34
  cool how do I make
• 54:35
  that happen or whatever and so it's like a lot of that type of
• 54:40
  framework and
• 54:41
  SPEAKER_00: mentality I think that gets me
• 54:44
  SPEAKER_00: frustrated with myself where it's like,
• 54:46
  SPEAKER_00: oh,
• 54:46
  SPEAKER_00: I,
• 54:47
  SPEAKER_00: how do,
• 54:48
  and this is like one of the big questions that I think I will
• 54:51
  continue to wrestle
• 54:52
  SPEAKER_00: with throughout my life is like,
• 54:53
  SPEAKER_00: how do you have the right juxtaposition of like ambition,
• 54:57
  SPEAKER_00: but then also like being content and like enough is enough.
• 55:01
  SPEAKER_00: And it's a lot of what I think you've been talking about.
• 55:05
  SPEAKER_00: Like you combat that with generosity,
• 55:07
  SPEAKER_00: you combat that with like giving up your semblance of control.
• 55:12
  SPEAKER_00: You combat that with like having peace around like,
• 55:16
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 55:16
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know the answer and I maybe am not where I want to be,
• 55:20
  SPEAKER_00: but I'm on the right track.
• 55:21
  SPEAKER_00: Like I'm doing the things that I want to be living into.
• 55:26
  SPEAKER_00: And then like where ultimately is your identity?
• 55:28
  Is it in like my entrepreneurial bent and I want to be the type
• 55:32
  of person that is
• 55:33
  SPEAKER_00: super successful in business?
• 55:34
  SPEAKER_00: Or is it like,
• 55:35
  SPEAKER_00: no,
• 55:36
  I'm like a child of God and I want to be living into the peace
• 55:40
  that he like brings
• 55:41
  SPEAKER_00: by like,
• 55:42
  him telling me my identity in that and I wrestle with that a
• 55:46
  lot and so how do I
• 55:48
  like live in the tension of that because I think like he's
• 55:52
  created me with those
• 55:53
  unique abilities and talents that like give me that mindset and
• 55:58
  that framework and
• 55:59
  SPEAKER_00: then like what is twisting what's a twisting of that tool
• 56:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um,
• 56:04
  SPEAKER_00: so that I'm,
• 56:05
  SPEAKER_00: I'm kind of like caught in my,
• 56:08
  my own selfishness and brokenness rather than like giving those
• 56:13
  talents and gifts
• 56:14
  SPEAKER_00: to him fully and saying,
• 56:16
  SPEAKER_00: Hey,
• 56:16
  SPEAKER_00: how do I use these to glorify you?
• 56:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um, where it's like, I don't know.
• 56:22
  SPEAKER_00: I think about someone like Bach where it's like,
• 56:25
  all of the work that he did he like just wrote at the top of it
• 56:28
  for the glory of
• 56:29
  God like he had a really great reminder of like my gifts and
• 56:32
  talents are nothing
• 56:34
  apart from like what you've given me like they are they are
• 56:40
  only mine because
• 56:41
  you've given them to me yeah but I'm still gonna like work hard
• 56:45
  and have challenges
• 56:46
  and I don't know a ton about his life but yeah this is the guy
• 56:49
  that was like blind
• 56:51
  SPEAKER_00: right no deaf
• 56:53
  SPEAKER_00: Which one was Bach?
• 56:55
  SPEAKER_00: He was... Bach was... Or Beethoven?
• 56:58
  SPEAKER_00: Oh.
• 56:58
  SPEAKER_00: Am I messing up?
• 56:59
  SPEAKER_00: I'm messing up.
• 56:59
  SPEAKER_01: They're all pianists.
• 57:00
  SPEAKER_01: Mozart?
• 57:01
  SPEAKER_01: Wait, Beethoven was... Mozart was deaf, I think.
• 57:03
  SPEAKER_01: It's either Bach or Beethoven.
• 57:04
  SPEAKER_00: This is terrible.
• 57:06
  SPEAKER_00: I should know this.
• 57:07
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not a musician, so I don't claim to know anything.
• 57:09
  SPEAKER_00: One of them was deaf.
• 57:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 57:13
  SPEAKER_00: He knew music so well that he could hear it in his head.
• 57:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 57:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 57:17
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's like, wow, what a glorification of God in that.
• 57:22
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like, how do I use those skills that God has endowed me with?
• 57:27
  SPEAKER_00: And then like,
• 57:29
  SPEAKER_00: point to him more than like,
• 57:31
  I want to be super successful and live in Orange County and
• 57:34
  have a big house.
• 57:35
  SPEAKER_00: And I say I want all those things for the right reasons or whatever.
• 57:38
  SPEAKER_00: But there's the selfishness side of it too,
• 57:40
  SPEAKER_00: where it's like,
• 57:41
  SPEAKER_00: yeah,
• 57:41
  it sounds nice to have like job security and security of like
• 57:45
  finances and all that
• 57:46
  SPEAKER_00: kind of stuff.
• 57:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 57:48
  no no no when is like enough enough and it's just like live
• 57:51
  with what you have and
• 57:52
  then be generous i don't know anyway there's a lot to unpack in
• 57:56
  that i think that i
• 57:57
  could probably use some therapy for but um absolutely yeah um
• 58:04
  the other day uh i
• 58:05
  was talking to my brother and he was like wow you got a lot
• 58:07
  going on in there yeah
• 58:09
  you could probably use some therapy and i was like you're
• 58:12
  probably not wrong son of
• 58:13
  SPEAKER_01: a gun yes i could
• 58:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so I don't know how we got on that, but...
• 58:20
  SPEAKER_00: I asked you.
• 58:22
  SPEAKER_00: I appreciate that.
• 58:23
  SPEAKER_00: This is a two-way conversation.
• 58:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it should be.
• 58:26
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, so I think it's...
• 58:30
  I'm often asking those types of questions and knowing
• 58:35
  intellectually that the
• 58:37
  SPEAKER_00: answers are going to elude me probably for...
• 58:40
  I'll get little glimpses of the clarity that we've talked
• 58:44
  about,
• 58:44
  I think,
• 58:44
  in bits and pieces.
• 58:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 58:47
  And,
• 58:47
  like,
• 58:47
  that will intrigue me enough to keep,
• 58:49
  like,
• 58:50
  going down the road.
• 58:53
  SPEAKER_00: But it really is,
• 58:54
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 58:55
  SPEAKER_00: I think there is,
• 58:56
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 58:57
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know,
• 58:58
  SPEAKER_00: how do you be faithful in the things that,
• 59:01
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 59:02
  SPEAKER_00: God has given you in your identity?
• 59:05
  And giving it back to Him rather than,
• 59:07
  like,
• 59:08
  how do I figure out what I'm supposed to do?
• 59:10
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, well, no, it's more like, what do you want me to do?
• 59:15
  SPEAKER_00: And then, like, being...
• 59:16
  confident and like oh well you've made me to be this certain
• 59:19
  way like i'm gonna go
• 59:20
  down this path i don't know there's this question that uh me
• 59:25
  and david talk about a
• 59:26
  lot like making friends with the questions like this idea of
• 59:30
  just like you you're
• 59:32
  not going to know the answers to like a lot of things but how
• 59:35
  do you wrestle with
• 59:36
  SPEAKER_00: them anyway and be okay with like not knowing um
• 59:42
  and having your identity like safe in in jesus rather than in
• 59:46
  like well i have to
• 59:48
  figure out how to be a successful entrepreneur because then
• 59:50
  i'll i'll have made it
• 59:51
  or whatever um and that's just like the age-old story i think
• 59:54
  that we tell
• 59:55
  ourselves and then literally everybody that i hear about that
• 59:59
  is has the the
• 1:00:00
  world's success um ends up like empty and uh searching for like
• 1:00:07
  meaning yeah um
• 1:00:09
  SPEAKER_00: because of like
• 1:00:11
  in the world's eyes they're successful they've IPO their
• 1:00:14
  company or they've done
• 1:00:15
  whatever they have the most status or whatever it is and then
• 1:00:20
  it's like oh actually
• 1:00:21
  SPEAKER_00: like none of that stuff actually satisfies and so it's like me constantly
• 1:00:27
  intellectually and then like spiritually and emotionally like
• 1:00:31
  understanding that
• 1:00:33
  SPEAKER_00: and actually living into that I think
• 1:00:36
  but it is just yeah it's challenging to to wrestle with i think
• 1:00:41
  all the time yeah
• 1:00:43
  it definitely is yeah i think that has to do so much with like
• 1:00:46
  the take captive
• 1:00:47
  every thought yeah yeah but that's like exhausting take captive
• 1:00:54
  every thought yeah
• 1:00:56
  but it is like maybe you're doing it wrong maybe maybe i am i
• 1:01:00
  don't know it's like
• 1:01:01
  the idea of like uh pray without ceasing like that also seems
• 1:01:05
  exhausting to me but
• 1:01:06
  your version of prayer sucks then yeah exactly but i think if i
• 1:01:11
  think about it as a
• 1:01:11
  conversation that's just ongoing then like oh my savior wants
• 1:01:16
  to know me and i want
• 1:01:17
  to know him then it's like yeah yeah i don't know it's all
• 1:01:21
  perspective because if i
• 1:01:22
  think of like oh man talking to shelby all the time that's
• 1:01:24
  really exhausting then
• 1:01:25
  SPEAKER_00: it's like
• 1:01:26
  SPEAKER_00: Are you really in like a marriage that you like?
• 1:01:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:01:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:01:31
  SPEAKER_00: It's so interesting and convicting.
• 1:01:33
  SPEAKER_00: Like the way that I think about those things sometimes.
• 1:01:38
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah.
• 1:01:38
  SPEAKER_00: So.
• 1:01:40
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 1:01:41
  SPEAKER_00: Switching gears.
• 1:01:44
  SPEAKER_00: So this is one of the last questions that I'll ask.
• 1:01:48
  SPEAKER_00: And it's from our last guest.
• 1:01:52
  SPEAKER_00: Who was Jordan.
• 1:01:53
  SPEAKER_01: Hey.
• 1:01:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:01:54
  SPEAKER_00: He's great.
• 1:01:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um,
• 1:01:56
  SPEAKER_00: and,
• 1:01:56
  SPEAKER_00: uh,
• 1:01:57
  SPEAKER_00: his question to you is,
• 1:01:58
  SPEAKER_01: uh,
• 1:02:01
  SPEAKER_00: what is an idea or belief that you have held,
• 1:02:03
  SPEAKER_00: uh,
• 1:02:04
  SPEAKER_00: very confidently for a long time,
• 1:02:06
  SPEAKER_00: but now think is wrong?
• 1:02:10
  SPEAKER_01: Whoa, whoa.
• 1:02:10
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 1:02:12
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, um,
• 1:02:26
  SPEAKER_01: Man,
• 1:02:26
  SPEAKER_01: I think in the last couple years,
• 1:02:28
  SPEAKER_01: or really this last year,
• 1:02:30
  SPEAKER_01: that feels like something that has been answered,
• 1:02:33
  SPEAKER_01: or I can answer that with something that I've learned.
• 1:02:37
  I used to think that the religion and Christ and living aligned
• 1:02:43
  with God really
• 1:02:44
  SPEAKER_01: meant super structured in a certain way.
• 1:02:49
  Probably in my early 20s,
• 1:02:51
  I deconstructed a bit,
• 1:02:52
  but then started reconstructing a ton.
• 1:02:54
  In my reconstruction like still found myself following like a
• 1:02:57
  lot of religious
• 1:02:58
  SPEAKER_01: rules and guidelines which are all there for a reason are all helpful,
• 1:03:02
  but This last year I feel like I came into this place was like
• 1:03:10
  Really the answer
• 1:03:11
  that I gave you about writing which is just like all these
• 1:03:14
  guardrails are only
• 1:03:17
  SPEAKER_01: helpful if they get you to do the thing and so like I don't think like I
• 1:03:22
  SPEAKER_01: Like for me,
• 1:03:22
  I just think God is so radically interested in humanity that
• 1:03:27
  all of our like living
• 1:03:29
  SPEAKER_01: healthy standards are still so far away from him.
• 1:03:32
  And I think like that's something that I used to think where
• 1:03:35
  it's like we figured
• 1:03:36
  SPEAKER_01: out like there's a perfect way to live close to God.
• 1:03:38
  SPEAKER_01: And now I'm just kind of like,
• 1:03:41
  I actually think so many people who don't even realize the way
• 1:03:46
  they're living live
• 1:03:47
  SPEAKER_01: closer to God than a lot of people who think they are.
• 1:03:50
  SPEAKER_00: It's like simpler.
• 1:03:53
  then people like over complicate it yeah i think so um and like
• 1:04:00
  i i mainly like say
• 1:04:02
  that because like i have the honor of getting to do so much
• 1:04:04
  with my church and be a
• 1:04:05
  part of it and there's a lot of stuff that churches as a like a
• 1:04:09
  whole especially in
• 1:04:10
  SPEAKER_01: america like that we do and the way we operate that
• 1:04:14
  were designed to be helpful and I think are helpful when they
• 1:04:16
  are reset to a
• 1:04:17
  healthy standard but at the end of the day I think so many
• 1:04:20
  people and I'm really
• 1:04:21
  bummed that so many people including new Christians and old
• 1:04:24
  Christians get hung up
• 1:04:26
  on these certain details myself included for a long long time
• 1:04:29
  and probably still do
• 1:04:29
  in a lot of ways but like I found a lot of peace in just being
• 1:04:32
  like God can cover
• 1:04:34
  that bridge like he covered the gap that I can't foresee and as
• 1:04:39
  I learn to tweak
• 1:04:40
  SPEAKER_01: things I'll like live more aligned with him but
• 1:04:43
  SPEAKER_01: man,
• 1:04:43
  if I lived in sin for the rest of my life and was still every
• 1:04:45
  day trying to come to
• 1:04:46
  SPEAKER_01: him,
• 1:04:46
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 1:04:47
  SPEAKER_01: I think I'd be okay.
• 1:04:48
  SPEAKER_01: Dang.
• 1:04:48
  SPEAKER_01: And that's, like, provides a lot of peace.
• 1:04:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:04:51
  But I feel like it's hard to talk about in a lot of the circles
• 1:04:54
  I'm in because it's
• 1:04:56
  SPEAKER_01: pretty nuanced.
• 1:04:57
  SPEAKER_01: And it's not that people aren't able to understand nuance.
• 1:04:59
  Some people are unwilling to understand nuance,
• 1:05:01
  and some people are still so new to faith.
• 1:05:03
  SPEAKER_01: And I happen to be in a circle where I have a lot of...
• 1:05:05
  SPEAKER_00: That the structures and disciplines are,
• 1:05:06
  SPEAKER_00: like...
• 1:05:06
  SPEAKER_00: Are actually helpful for them in the beginning.
• 1:05:08
  SPEAKER_00: Very good thing.
• 1:05:08
  yeah um because it would just almost muddy the water if they
• 1:05:12
  like jump straight to
• 1:05:13
  nuance and it's like no no you got to grow in your faith a
• 1:05:15
  little bit um to begin
• 1:05:18
  to wrestle with that because and i don't want to like freak
• 1:05:20
  them out and so um yeah
• 1:05:21
  i think that like that is something i don't know if that
• 1:05:24
  answers the question sorry
• 1:05:25
  no i think so i yeah yeah that's that's awesome do you have a
• 1:05:29
  question for our next
• 1:05:31
  SPEAKER_01: guest um
• 1:05:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
• 1:05:48
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 1:05:49
  SPEAKER_01: I'd love to just...
• 1:05:50
  SPEAKER_01: Out of my own curiosity,
• 1:05:58
  SPEAKER_01: what do you think would come from letting your dream completely die?
• 1:06:01
  SPEAKER_00: Ooh.
• 1:06:03
  SPEAKER_00: We've had a question that was like,
• 1:06:06
  SPEAKER_00: what's a dream that you used to have that you should reinvigorate?
• 1:06:11
  SPEAKER_00: But I like this.
• 1:06:12
  SPEAKER_00: That would be really interesting.
• 1:06:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, what if you let it...
• 1:06:15
  die and death like legitimately like what if you completely
• 1:06:18
  gave it up and lost it
• 1:06:20
  i'd hope it would raise three days later from the grave you'd
• 1:06:23
  hope so uh yeah that
• 1:06:27
  is that sacrilegious maybe it's maybe it's not no no i don't
• 1:06:30
  think it is um no
• 1:06:32
  that's really good yeah like what what new life could be
• 1:06:36
  created yeah out of like
• 1:06:39
  SPEAKER_00: you just like giving up that thing
• 1:06:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
• 1:06:43
  SPEAKER_01: over the Easter weekend,
• 1:06:45
  one of the questions or the things that we were able to compare
• 1:06:48
  in service was like
• 1:06:53
  SPEAKER_01: resurrection versus resuscitation.
• 1:06:56
  SPEAKER_01: And as humans, we have most experience with resuscitation.
• 1:06:59
  Resurrection goes beyond resuscitation,
• 1:07:03
  which is just bringing something back to life as it was.
• 1:07:06
  SPEAKER_01: It brings it back to life and then some.
• 1:07:08
  yeah and so i think like i asked that question because like
• 1:07:11
  what needs to die what
• 1:07:13
  dream needs to die in order for it to be resurrected um with
• 1:07:16
  new extra expounding
• 1:07:18
  life that you had no idea existed but don't tell them that's
• 1:07:22
  really good yeah
• 1:07:23
  that's really good i'm excited to hear their response yeah dang
• 1:07:27
  well thank you for
• 1:07:27
  taking the time my friend of course it was so much fun i love
• 1:07:30
  getting to go deep
• 1:07:30
  with you yes yeah it's the best and i yeah it's never enough
• 1:07:34
  time i feel like
• 1:07:35
  SPEAKER_00: whenever we're
• 1:07:36
  SPEAKER_01: I can do this like for eight hours.
• 1:07:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
• 1:07:40
  SPEAKER_00: We got to pace ourselves.
• 1:07:41
  SPEAKER_00: We'll do this again.
• 1:07:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:07:42
  We'll do it in once the baby's here and once you've had some
• 1:07:47
  time to ruminate on parenthood.
• 1:07:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 1:07:50
  SPEAKER_00: And then I'll ask you all the parenting questions about like,
• 1:07:53
  SPEAKER_00: what are you doing that I'm not doing that I should be doing?
• 1:07:56
  SPEAKER_01: I should be asking you that.
• 1:07:58
  SPEAKER_00: Oh man, I'm an open book man.
• 1:08:00
  SPEAKER_00: I am definitely in the very early stages of figuring it out.
• 1:08:05
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, happy to share notes with anything.
• 1:08:09
  SPEAKER_00: But thank you for taking the time.
• 1:08:11
  SPEAKER_00: It means a lot, man.
• 1:08:13
  SPEAKER_00: I love these conversations and I'm excited to have more of them.
• 1:08:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, me too.
• 1:08:18
  SPEAKER_01: Also, David, I'm so sorry I'm not at the office right now.