Latest / The BioHub - by Avetix / Episode 88 - Robert Hoffman - CFO Cytodyn

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Episode 88 - Robert Hoffman - CFO Cytodyn · The BioHub - by Avetix

0:06
Welcome to another episode of The Bio Hub, a podcast brought
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to you by Avetics. I'm joined by Robert Hoffman,
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the Chief Financial Officer of Cytidine.
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Robert is a true industry veteran with decades of
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experience leading finance and strategy across some of
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biotech's most recognisable names, from Arena to Heron and
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Kintara. Over his career he's guided IP,
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OS, spin offs, fundraisers and M and.
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A all while. Serving on the boards of
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multiple biotech companies now at Cytidine, Robert is helping
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steer the company as it advances its lead monoclonal antibody
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programme. This conversation is about
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leadership, staying motivated in biotech's tougher cycles, and
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the big vision for Cytidine's future.
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It's an absolute pleasure to have you, Robert.
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How are you? I'm good.
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How are you? Yeah, really well, really well.
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It's amazing to have you on. Thank you for the introduction,
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appreciate it. It's a pleasure.
1:03
Let let's just start with your story.
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You've held senior financial and leadership roles across multiple
1:10
biotech companies. Can can you just walk us through
1:13
your journey but also just some of the key lessons you've you've
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carried with you? Yeah.
1:19
No, I'm happy to. You know, you touched on, I was
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part of the startup management team at Arena Pharmaceuticals
1:25
back in 1997, kind of dating myself, but that was my first
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real foray into biotechnology. You know, it was 97 was a tough
1:36
time. We, we, I think we had
1:38
$1,000,000 in the bank when I started.
1:40
We didn't have a, a building, you know, Fast forward, we had
1:43
six when I left. And so we, I took the company
1:48
public in 2000 as VP Finance. Over that time period, I think I
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raised $1.2 billion by the time I left in 2015.
1:59
But some of the real lessons I learned when we were a small
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company, I had, I was this one story is, is kind of telling.
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We small company, I don't know, maybe 1520 people.
2:10
And we hired A receptionist. So the receptionist had to take
2:15
lunch and so I would fill in for her at lunchtime into a tee.
2:21
All the IT was just the chemist would would walk by and they
2:24
would laugh at me for being at the front desk.
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I'm like, I was VP finance at the time.
2:28
I'm like, just you wait, Someday I'm going to be CFO and I'm
2:30
going to remember, you know, and sure enough, you know, we grew
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to at 1.500 employees and you know, I, I reminded them each
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time. So, but the point is when you're
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a small company, you'd do whatever it takes in order to
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get the job done. And that was really important.
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And one other thing on that vein, but I'll get back to my
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experience. Every Monday I'd bring in bagels
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and it's called Bagem one day. And I remember when I laughed,
3:00
you know, at some .3 or 4 years, I, I stopped doing it.
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When I laughed, all those older employees remembered and thought
3:08
it was really cool that the CFO bring in bagels every Monday,
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really look forward to it. So again, it's these small
3:15
things that you don't think of when you're doing them, just
3:18
make an impression on folks. So you know, but Fast forward,
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we went public in 2000, again raised I think 113 million in
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the IPOA. Year later, we raised another
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115,000,000. We did deals with Merck, J&J and
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Azai along the way. I was instrumental in those from
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a financial perspective. We actually acquired a
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manufacturing facility in Switzerland.
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I was the managing director of of the facility in Switzerland.
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So I go over four or five times a year at least, you know, meet
3:56
with the team over there are really important.
3:59
One of the other things that I learned along the way to is just
4:01
treat people the way you want to be treated.
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And so that was something that really always stuck with me.
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Someone along the way told me that.
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And again, it's simple, simple words to say, but if you do
4:12
that, it really resonates with folks.
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I left there in 2015, moved on to a couple other companies
4:22
including an Aptus Bio Heron Therapeutics, which had an
4:28
approved drug, which was really helpful because back in San
4:31
Diego where I was at, not many folks had approved drugs.
4:35
So I had revenue to think about and what not.
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That was really helpful in getting on boards that actually
4:41
have approved drugs. So I thought that experience was
4:44
super helpful along the way there.
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I, I joined the board back in 2013.
4:49
Fourteen and once you join one board, it's actually much easier
4:54
to get on other boards. So I always view it as a
4:57
baseball manager. You can't be a baseball manager
4:59
to you're a baseball manager. And so it's just one of those
5:02
things kind of like CFO to you can't be ACFO to you're ACFO.
5:06
Anyway, Fast forward, I retired and was sitting on 6 public
5:12
company boards, which sounds like too much.
5:16
I was very lucky. I had one in Singapore, I had
5:19
one in Sweden, another one in Toronto and spread out.
5:24
And the reason I say that is I never had conflicts because they
5:27
were all in these different time zones and really good management
5:30
teams to AT. So that was helpful that they
5:32
kind of kind of stayed in line. One of the companies I sat on,
5:36
Contera Therapeutics, I was chairman of the board.
5:39
The CEO is turning 70, and he said, you know, I just don't
5:41
want to do this anymore. And I said, well, I don't.
5:44
I don't want to do it either. I'm living my life, you know,
5:47
sitting on these boards. And it was a great gig, so to
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speak. And he said, well, just talk to
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the scientific Advisory Board members, and I did.
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And there was, you know, MD Anderson was representative.
5:59
UCLA was represented, Harvard was represented.
6:03
And to a tee, they thought, you know, Robert, this could change
6:06
the landscape for GBM patients. And I never wanted to be CEO,
6:10
but I decided, OK, I'll do it. You know, Fast forward, we went
6:15
to a real, really well controlled phase two.
6:17
Phase three study through the Global Coalition for Adaptive
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Research was a platform study in glioblastoma.
6:24
The drug performed about the same as the current standard of
6:27
care, not any better, not any worse.
6:29
Safety profile was about the same.
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And so there's really no path forward.
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So I was able to raise some money after the drug failed
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unfortunately to get into a merger with her to her
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Biosciences, which is an amino oncology company focused on
6:44
ovarian cancers early program. And I sit on the board today.
6:47
I also sit on the board of Fiber Biologics and Esperion.
6:52
I saw Cytodyne is a really interesting opportunity and I'll
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talk a little bit about that in a little bit.
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And that's why I sit here today. So yeah, I'll pause there.
7:06
What a journey so far. But yeah, I I mean, the next
7:11
question is about Cytidine and and what inspires, OK.
7:13
They're doing. And, and we, we obviously had
7:17
the pleasure of, of actually placing you at Cytidine, which
7:19
is amazing to have you on in that respect as well.
7:22
But other than than the great recruiters selling you into the
7:26
opportunity, what what inspires you to join?
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Yeah, you know, it's funny, I, I always think it's a low bar to
7:34
join a, for me, a low bar, but it's actually a high bar and
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I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll touch on that.
7:39
So I first, first thing I do is I, I read about the science a
7:44
little bit, but I don't get too caught up in that initially.
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I want to make sure the management team and the board of
7:50
directors are like reasonable people because I, I did, I
7:55
getting back to Kantara, I really enjoyed being CEO and I
7:58
was really surprised by that because I never really wanted to
8:01
be CEO. And so I met with the management
8:05
team, you know, Tyler and Jay and I really like them and they
8:09
seem like reasonable people. There was a couple other
8:12
companies I had met with that the, the, the folks were not,
8:17
not reasonable, not normal. And maybe reasonable is the
8:19
wrong word for for some of them. I just want people who are
8:22
normal, who, you know, you can have an ego, but you know, you
8:25
shouldn't be outsized and where the case was.
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So then I met with each of the board members, totally
8:31
reasonable, well qualified folks that I thought, OK, now I'm
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going to dig into the science and I, I view the science.
8:39
You know, the, the retrospective data in these TMBC patients is
8:44
really, really compelling. We have to prove it
8:48
prospectively. But I thought this is a really
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interesting opportunity. The reason I say that too is at
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Kantara, I was really, really disappointed that our drug
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didn't work. So one thing that I view is
9:03
really important is being able to have interactions with
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patients that you're trying to help.
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And although this was kind of one step away, when I was at
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Kentara, there was 2 moms who had called me both times I was
9:20
in the JFK lounge in, in New York flying back to to San Diego
9:26
at the time. And they both had sons and both
9:30
wanted to get into my clinical trial.
9:33
And one, it kind of stepped out of the, of the hospital room to,
9:37
to call me. And I, I don't know how my phone
9:39
number got out there, but it was just fine.
9:42
And I, I can't give medical advice, but I just put them in
9:46
touch with, with the folks that, you know, could steer them to
9:50
see if they're eligible for their children to, to get into
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the trial. And, you know, it's just
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heartbreaking to hear these, these moms talk about their sons
10:00
in both cases. And so one in particular, I
10:05
again, I was in the JFK lounge and I spoke to her two weeks
10:08
later and I asked if she was able to get into trial and she
10:13
said, you know, unfortunate it's too late.
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And that really caught me off guard every time it catches me
10:18
off guard. And so I feel like that's kind
10:21
of one my unfulfilled career opportunities to help patients.
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And so Fast forward to Cytodyne and loronlimab, I think we have
10:32
an opportunity to change the landscape of of cancer treatment
10:36
for a lot of patients. And I'll touch on that a little
10:39
bit, I'm sure. So that that's why I sit here
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today. I want this.
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This is my last, my last operating role that I'm going to
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do. I'm getting too old for this,
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but I think it's an exciting opportunity to to help patients
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and that's something that I kind of missed in my career, the
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Qatar in particular, where it has really, really stood out.
11:01
So here I am. Yeah, you can see how that that
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means to you. And I think you're right, like
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Cytidine are doing some some really cool work, but they've
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they've obviously had like a, an interesting story from their
11:16
past, but just just for people who don't know Cytodyne too
11:21
well, just just give us a, a Snapchat of the company and, and
11:24
what's happening at the moment. Yeah.
11:27
So loronlimab is our our main program and really our only a
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large molecule. It's a humanized monoclonal
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antibody that targets the CCR 5 receptor.
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The the one thing that really once I started digging in is
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it's very well tolerated. We've tested it over 1600
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patients in different indications.
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So you know very large safety database that's really
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important. You know that we don't safety,
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you just got to prove efficacy. We look, you know look back at
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this retrospective data and I'll touch on that a little bit.
12:02
Now we just have to prove it prospectively.
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We're looking at some really large market opportunities.
12:08
We're looking at solid tumors. We have an ongoing phase two
12:11
clinical study in colorectal cancer.
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You know the market in 2025 is in the US alone is expected to
12:18
be almost 14 billion and that's growing to 22 billion in 2035.
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S again large market opportunity.
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We have really interesting data that I'll touch on a little bit
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in triple negative breast cancer that market opportunity is you
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know $3.1 billion and we have possible expansion to other
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solid tumor types, pancreatic glioblastoma which could be
12:47
really interesting, would really you know satisfying for me at
12:49
some point sarcoma, prostate cancer.
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So the induction of PDL one on cancer associated microphage
13:00
like cells, camels could amount to a significant improvement for
13:05
patients turning cold tumors hot.
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So you think about Keytruda for example.
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Well, IC is in general about 40% of patients are PDL 1 positive,
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which means 60% are PDL one negative.
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If loronlimab works how it's worked retrospectively and we
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prove it prospectively and we can turn some of those cold
13:32
tumors hot, that opens up a lot of patients who are otherwise
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ineligible for checkpoint inhibitors or ICIS to take
13:43
KEYTRUDA, for example. So really, really interesting
13:46
opportunity for us in that regard.
13:49
Yeah. And look, looking ahead, what,
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what's the big picture vision for you guys?
13:54
Where? Where do you see the company in
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the next few years, for example? Yeah.
13:59
So it's really the the PDL one story turning these cold tumors
14:03
hot and you know again and back to me, I think that would be
14:08
really gratifying if we can open up this opportunity to help so
14:12
many more patients. I mentioned the turning these
14:19
cold tumors hot and and opening up to new patients.
14:22
If you look at the overall survival, median overall
14:29
survivor for TMBC patients, it's roughly 8 to 13 months.
14:34
Looking retrospectively at our data, we we looked at 28
14:38
different patients of TMBC patients in looking at 5 out of
14:44
five patients who up regulated their PDL 1 and received
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loronlimab in an ICI are alive today after four plus years, 5
14:54
out of five. It's just amazing that and
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that's almost five years now if you continue to move and three
15:00
of the five had no evidence of disease.
15:03
These are women who were very sick, who had a median of in the
15:07
entire study OF22 prior lines of therapy.
15:11
So again, very sick patients. If you look at the other 23
15:16
patients, you know they none of them are alive today who didn't
15:22
take loronimab and an ICI at the higher dose.
15:25
So we could really have the opportunity to to change the
15:29
landscape on a going forward basis.
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So we have an ongoing colorectal cancer study that we're working
15:36
through. We're going to look at the PDL
15:38
one up regulation as we go along with the study as those patients
15:42
are dosed. And then we're looking to get a
15:45
phase two started and triple negative breast cancer which
15:48
we'll look at those same indications as well.
15:51
So we're working with the FDA. So one can imagine that if you
15:56
can upper regulate and open up more patients as I mentioned to
16:02
taking an ICI, that really opens up a huge opportunity for
16:08
Cytidine in combination with an ICI.
16:12
And there's many, you know, I should say handful of companies
16:16
that have IC is PD1 and as well as PDL one companies that may
16:22
want to work with us in the future.
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We, we are in very early stage discussions with companies
16:28
about, you know, maybe studies that involve their, their, their
16:33
programs. So that would be what would be
16:36
really interesting is, you know, kind of now putting our heads
16:39
down, but getting these studies going so we can get to the data
16:44
and, you know, getting the story out.
16:47
I think Max, we were talking before we started the, the, the,
16:51
the podcast, I'm trying to really get out and, and talk to
16:54
folks who will be about Europe and hopefully get on on folks's
16:59
radar, pharmaceutical companies so that when we do announce this
17:03
data, they understand the story and, and, you know, can move
17:08
quickly to do, you know, things that they want to do and, and,
17:12
and working with, with Saturday. Yeah, I love that.
17:16
So much work to do. You've hit the ground running
17:19
since you came in and you know, like there's a there's a lot to
17:24
work for here. Like you can see the passion
17:26
that you the way you're talking about things as well, which is
17:30
interesting. You've obviously left LED both
17:33
teams in rough times and exciting times in terms of the
17:39
market. How do you keep your team
17:42
motivated through both the ups and downs?
17:46
Yeah, I, I did this really interesting thing at Arena and
17:49
I'm starting to do it at Cytidine.
17:51
So one of the things that I think is really interesting is
17:57
A, knowing about the patient population, that's really
18:00
important, but B, understanding the focus of the company and
18:05
what everyone within the company is doing.
18:07
And that's really important now, given now a lot of companies,
18:10
including Cytidine, is very virtual because before you can
18:14
go into the lunch room or whatever and you'd bump into
18:17
people, you'd understand what they're doing.
18:18
So at Arena, once a month, I'd pull together the accounting
18:22
team and we'd have a speaker from the company come in and
18:26
tell, tell us what they're doing in their certain area of
18:29
discipline. So, you know, it was really
18:33
fascinating and I think it really helped my accounting
18:35
group understand sometimes when they really needed something,
18:39
they understood what they're working on and why it was
18:41
important to them. And they also had a personal
18:43
relationship with them too. So, you know, Fast forward two
18:47
3-4 months, it was really, really interesting that I had a
18:50
couple groups come to me and they said, you know, we're
18:52
feeling really left out. You haven't picked our group yet
18:56
to talk in front of us, say, well, hold on, I'm trying to do
18:58
one a month. We still got to get work done on
19:00
the other side too. So it, it really resonated with
19:04
my accounting team that they understood the business entirely
19:08
versus just being, you know, what do you call that
19:14
pigeonholed into just doing accounting, but getting a
19:18
greater understanding for, you know, what, what we're doing.
19:22
One of the really interesting things we're doing at Cytidine
19:25
is we're working on some patient interviews that I think will be
19:30
really helpful internally as well as externally about what
19:34
they've been through. So I was on a, a zoom call and
19:39
there was a, an individual who is married to one of these
19:44
survivors and the, the woman came on just for, you know, a
19:47
brief, you know, few minutes, but you know, really alive and
19:51
vivacious. And here she's, you know, had
19:54
this really bad prognosis 4 years ago and she's cancer free
19:59
now and just really, really fascinating.
20:01
So I'm going to put Jay in front of my Jay, Dr. Lazari Lazari,
20:07
the CEO in front of my accounting group in the next few
20:10
weeks just to talk about what he's thinking about.
20:13
And then we'll get someone from clinical and do the same type
20:16
thing. So they really have an
20:18
appreciation for what we're doing.
20:20
I'll figure out how to incorporate the patient
20:23
component to to understand. Why we're all in this and why
20:27
we're doing what we're doing and why we're working really hard.
20:30
I will say I have a really good accounting group, so I'm really
20:32
thrilled to to inherit that from a previous CFO.
20:36
Yeah, it's amazing. I love, I love what you do there
20:39
as well. You know, sometimes different
20:42
departments can feel very disjointed, but then you like
20:46
you say, you've got to incorporate that patient side as
20:49
well because yes, everyone in the company will have come
20:53
across somebody they know or love with with cancer and that's
20:58
in some way. But then seeing how you know,
21:00
first hand patients you're treating, it's like, yeah, This
21:05
is why we're doing it. It puts it all into perspective.
21:09
It really does. It really does.
21:11
And you know, the other thing too is you can't take yourself
21:13
too seriously. And so I did start a football
21:17
pool. I that I did before anyone, once
21:21
this gets public, I support it. I, I give gift cards every week,
21:24
but it's out of my own pocket. But it's funny how that too just
21:29
gives you something to, to talk about and, and, and whatnot.
21:32
And so, of course, the first week I won and I, I kicked the,
21:36
the gift card to the next week and somebody else won it.
21:39
So anyway, just just the little things too, to show that you're
21:42
human beings and that. Yeah, so.
21:45
That's not an answer aspect as well.
21:47
It's like, yeah, everyone is passionate about what they're
21:51
doing. But like, you know, there's
21:52
there's going to be that team bonding in in some kind of way
21:55
as well and some kind of, you know, things to bring you
21:59
together that aren't, that aren't just weird because
22:03
there's always this this weird thing, aren't there?
22:05
Because most of the time you can't choose who you work with.
22:09
You know, you just kind of put with those people.
22:11
So if you can bond them in in other ways and than than just
22:15
work and then you win. It and everyone has a story too
22:19
it's it's important to figure out how to tap into that and
22:23
understand who they are and why they're doing what they're doing
22:26
so I, I find it really important yeah even Uber drivers for
22:30
example I chat away with them and find find out what's going
22:34
on because I do travel quite a bit and I always find it
22:36
fascinating to what what comes to that conversation so.
22:41
Yeah. That's interesting.
22:43
Yeah. And then on the complete flip
22:45
side into instead of how you motivate your team, this, this
22:49
might be quite similar, by the way.
22:51
How do you personally stay motivated?
22:55
And then I don't know if it comes into it, but how do you
22:58
stay motivated as a leader as well?
23:04
Well, that's a good question. So the first part is very
23:07
similar that I, I, I think about the patients.
23:12
I mean, that's really what motivates me is that Clio
23:15
blastoma story that I'm not going to tell again because I,
23:17
like I said, I always get choked up.
23:19
But I, I think it's important to, to think about, you know,
23:23
people who, you know, have these really horrible diseases.
23:28
We're very much focused on oncology that we could help and
23:31
really change the landscape for a lot of people that that keeps
23:35
me motivated. And another thing that keeps me
23:38
motivated and I've done a good job of this is surrounding
23:41
myself by people that are much smarter than me.
23:44
So I think about arena when I first delve into biotechnology,
23:50
I sat in the room and we're working on multiple indications
23:53
of different things. And I walked out and the sea
23:56
goes, how much of that did you get?
23:58
And I said, I, I get about 5% and he's like, that's really
24:01
good. And so, you know, Fast forward,
24:05
you know, I really studied up and understood the market when I
24:09
got 50%. And each time I got better and
24:12
better. And, you know, when I think
24:13
about Kentara, I dug in and I knew 95% more than the folks in
24:19
the room did at investor conference about glioblastoma.
24:24
So that keeps me motivated too, is kind of understanding disease
24:27
States and whatnot. As a leader, what keeps me
24:31
motivated? You know, I, I, I view treating
24:38
my people with respect and dignity keeps them motivated
24:41
and, and kind of calling people out if they don't.
24:45
But I also think it's important and I don't know if it keeps me
24:48
motivated, but to give compliments in public and then
24:53
if there's constructive language that to do that in private.
24:59
And so that keeps me motivated to make sure we we raise
25:03
everyone up to a level that that that is important again to treat
25:07
people the way you want to be treated.
25:09
So again, what keeps you motivated as leaders is
25:14
hopefully changing, changing the landscape for a lot of folks.
25:18
And you can only do what you can do.
25:20
So we're going to run well, well run clinical trials that are
25:25
appropriately designed. Yeah, yeah.
25:30
And come to my final question, which is the same for for
25:34
everyone as well Robert. So I don't know if you.
25:36
Have a. Chance to think about it.
25:39
But if, if you could have dinner with any scientist or innovator,
25:42
past or present, who, who would it be and why?
25:47
Yeah, so I did think about this one because I saw it's from your
25:51
other podcasts. It's it's an interesting 1.
25:54
So I'll go back and have a little bit of history.
25:57
So I, I joined my first board and I can't remember the date
26:02
and I was just really excited. I, I mentioned how I was, would
26:07
try to scream to look for people that I, I liked and that, you
26:11
know, I could work with my first one.
26:13
I just wanted to be on a board. And so it was just to be
26:16
transparent. I joined the board and great
26:20
group. It couldn't have been any
26:21
better. Actually, it was one of my best
26:22
boards that I sat on. Probably a year later, one of
26:27
the board members raised his hand and said I need to resign.
26:30
He was, he was the best board member far away.
26:33
I need to resign because president-elect Trump at the
26:35
time, this one must have been late 16, early 17, because
26:41
president-elect Trump is considering me to head up the
26:43
FDA and he didn't want to have any issues or any conflicts.
26:47
His name was Scott Gottlieb, who I know very well and he, I don't
26:53
know if you've seen him on CNBC or what not just AI mean off the
26:57
charts, smart MD by training, just just a brilliant
27:02
individual. Really nice guy too.
27:05
So when he joined the FDA, you kind of, you know, you can't
27:08
have those interactions anymore on a personal level.
27:12
And now, you know, I've, I've been to a couple conferences and
27:15
he speaks and, you know, he has security guys that kind of take
27:19
them off off the stage and went out.
27:22
I've run into him a couple Times Now and he couldn't be more
27:26
pleasant, you know, at, at those conferences.
27:29
I would love to sit down and have lunch with him because he,
27:32
his knowledge about different parts of biotechnology and the
27:38
difference indications and how the FDA is run and, you know,
27:44
reimbursement and what is just so invaluable that I would love
27:47
to, and hopefully he's listening to this love to have a have a
27:53
lunch with him at some point and, and pick his brain so that
27:57
that's who I think about because again, great individual when I
28:02
bump into him, he does take time to, you know, chat with me.
28:05
And so I, I really appreciate that.
28:07
Yeah, I love that answer. It's like a bit more personal
28:10
than the than the rest of the ones we get and spin aside.
28:13
I really hope he listens as well.
28:15
That would be incredible. But Robert, absolute pleasure to
28:21
have you on. Yeah, look like.
28:22
Thanks for having me, appreciate it.
28:25
And and look, everyone please like and subscribe to the Bio
28:27
Hub and thanks so much again, Robert.