Latest / Women Disrupting Tech / How Mews Builds Inclusive Cultures in Hospitality with Magali Elhage and Matthijs Welle | Ep. 125

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How Mews Builds Inclusive Cultures in Hospitality with Magali Elhage and Matthijs Welle | Ep. 125 · Women Disrupting Tech

• 0:10
  Welcome to Women Disrupting Tech.
• 0:13
  My name is dear Kanupkas, and on this podcast, I give the women
• 0:16
  who work in tech the platform they need to inspire and empower
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  each other. Join me on a journey into the
• 0:23
  world of entrepreneurship, funding biases, and role models
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  to discover the strategies for success in the tech industry.
• 0:32
  In other words, how women can disrupt tech.
• 0:36
  Are you ready to listen? Hey, welcome back to Women
• 0:45
  Disrupting Tech and thank you for tuning in to this special
• 0:48
  episode 125 S This episode starts about a year ago when I
• 0:55
  visited A diverse Leaders in Tech event at the Muse office in
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  Amsterdam. Muse is a company that builds
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  the future of hospitality management for hotels and it's
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  one of the few Dutch start-ups valued at more than €1 billion.
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  Among the speakers were Mathais Vella, the CEO and Magali Elash.
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  After sharing her story of coming to Muse, Magali mentioned
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  that within weeks of joining Muse, she felt safe enough to
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  come out. And that was my prompt to Start
• 1:28
  learning how Muse build a culture where people can truly
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  be their best selves. Because make no mistake, Muse is
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  a Unicorn for a reason. And that is that everyone works
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  extremely hard to meet customer and investor expectations.
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  But still, the team is very diverse and that's also for a
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  reason. The company believes that
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  diversity in backgrounds and experiences contributes to
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  better results. And now you're wondering how?
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  Well, that's what this episode is about.
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  Magali Mathes and I talk about their journeys from traditional
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  hospitality to modern hotel tech, the power of storytelling
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  in building an inclusive culture, and how we can deploy
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  AI both for personal development and organizational growth.
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  Plus, you'll discover why embracing your fears as a
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  founder, investor, or even as an ordinary human being allows you
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  to lead from the frontline. Shout out to Meerte Bishou for
• 2:31
  connecting me with Magali, and of course, to Magali and
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  Matthais for their time. I'm absolutely convinced that
• 2:39
  you'll enjoy every single minute of this episode.
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  With that, when you're ready to listen and learn how Muse builds
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  inclusive cultures in hospitality, please welcome to
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  women disrupting tech, Magali Elhash and Matthais Vella.
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  Magali Elharsh and Matthais Vella from Muse.
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  Welcome to women disrupting tech.
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  Good to have you both. Question I always ask at the
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  start is how you got into your current position and also
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  Magali. I was wondering how and why you
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  decided to join Muse? Hello there again.
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  Thank you so much for having me on this podcast.
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  I decided to join Muse about six years ago.
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  I was working in the hospitality industry in Paris, and I had
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  reached a point in my career where I could not find myself in
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  the industry anymore. So a little bit of history.
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  I come from Beirut, from Lebanon, and I had a dream to
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  work in tourism and hospitality. So I left my country at age 20.
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  I came to Paris and I wanted to conquer the world of
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  hospitality. I've had about 10 years in in
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  this career that I I love doing and I did it with passion, but
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  very quickly and I, I felt that I could not be myself.
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  I felt that I could not thrive and, and break my ceiling and be
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  the leader that I wanted. So I started feeling insecure.
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  I started feeling not well. And someone from news contacted
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  me for a position and I took a leap of faith.
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  I went to their website. It looked very nice.
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  It looked like people felt like me, looked like me.
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  They were happy and the mission resonated with what I wanted to
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  do to to change the hospitality industry.
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  I took a leap of faith. That was six years ago.
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  I decided to join Muse for the mission, the vision, but also
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  the people. And I made the right choice six
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  years ago. Yeah.
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  Can I just double click on one thing?
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  You said. You said I could not be myself.
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  Can you elaborate a bit on that what that means?
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  Yes, when you I worked in the hospitality industry in Paris,
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  it's a lovely industry, but it's also a very traditional one.
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  Traditional by nature because it is culturally embedded in the
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  French hospitality to be traditional.
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  But it was also an industry lacking diversity, lacking
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  inclusivity. You have, I found a lot of
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  aggressions, microaggressions, bullying, harassing.
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  But when you did not fit into the traditional background, I
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  was a bit different. I I was a woman in a leadership
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  position with a strong voice, with a strong opinion.
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  That was not always welcome in a room full of men or it was not
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  always welcome when our investors wanted a specific
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  picture of what their property would look like.
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  So I struggled, I struggled to, to have a place where I, I felt
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  respected and I felt that I could definitely be myself with
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  my vision of hospitality, with my eccentricity and, and very
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  soon it became toxic for me to be in that environment.
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  This is when I knew that I had to leave because I was not doing
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  this job out of passion anymore and it was becoming harmful,
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  harmful for me to stay. Yeah.
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  So it was sort of killing you from the inside it.
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  Was killing me from the inside, it was killing my passion for
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  the industry and it was also killing my performance.
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  I was, I was no longer someone that could be at top performance
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  always. I could not be someone who came
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  to work happy, motivated and wanted to to give out the best
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  in me. And when you work in
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  hospitality, it's tough because you you're here to inspire
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  people. You're here to create a magical
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  experience for your customers. And if you don't have it, it's
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  pointless to work in the industry.
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  Yeah, that that energy is contaminating.
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  Exactly, yes. Yeah, So, Mathias, you joined
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  Muse as ACEO. You're not.
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  The founder, right? Yeah, I joined about a year
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  after Richard had founded the company.
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  By the time I joined there was 2 developers and a graphic
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  designer so it really still was like a bunch of lads in the
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  basement underneath the old Times Square in Prague.
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  Oh, OK. What?
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  How did you find yourself in the basement in Prague?
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  And on the back of that I was wondering what were you going to
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  build? What was the plan initially?
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  I always knew I was going to be a hotelier.
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  And we have a lot of hoteliers who are disenfranchised.
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  We're like, you know, they, they thought they were going to be a
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  great hotelier. And then you end up doing a job
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  that you're like, this is not exciting.
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  This is not the job that I aspired to be.
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  And I'm one of those people. I, I worked for one of the big
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  large global chains, Hilton, for about a decade and it was
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  fantastic. Like I learned so much.
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  And at some point of that career, if you're very
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  ambitious, you do get stuck. You are often the smartest
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  person in the room. You're the hardest working
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  person in the room. You have opinions about
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  everything. And that is sometimes not
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  appreciated if you have an opinion about another team in
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  another department. And I found that I was just
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  stuck. Like they were so good.
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  They promoted me every single year, but I just, I wasn't
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  learning at the speed that I need to learn.
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  So I ran into Richard said, why don't you just quit and just
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  join me? And I was like, I, I do
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  everything by the book. Like I literally have a plan for
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  my whole life planned out. But I was 30, no mortgage.
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  I thought I can take one risk in my life.
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  Like only one thing. Let me just take one risk.
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  And I jumped and took that risk and I joined the basements with
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  the developers and Richard. And you know, the first few
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  months you have a lot of doubts. You're like, Oh my God, what
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  have I done? Like this is going nowhere.
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  But The thing is, at some point you realize the freedom you get
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  by by being in your own business and making all the decisions.
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  And yes, cash flow is awful. And you know, how do we pay
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  salaries again this month? But it's the freedom and the
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  creativity and the learnings that I have every for 12 years
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  that I've been in this business. There hasn't been one day that I
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  haven't learned something new, and I think that that thing is
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  the thing that drives me. I'm so ambitious as a person and
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  in an entrepreneur, like a tech business, you can just keep
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  thriving and keep growing, and that's the thing that just
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  really motivates me. Yeah.
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  And if I hear you correctly, you define growth also as learning.
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  It what? How else would I run it?
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  OK. Yeah, I think, I think.
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  There's I see growth or learning also as a way to as deep way to
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  grow. Yeah, like I just crave it.
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  If so, learning how AI works, it is so exciting and it freaked me
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  out initially. But I'm like, well, I need to
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  figure it out because the whole world's moving there.
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  Let me just go and figure it out.
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  I'll build a bot and, and and then I have to push everyone
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  else in the company to do the same thing.
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  But if I don't do that, then the fear will be crippling.
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  The fear of I'm uncomfortable with this new change in the
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  world and I every time I realized that something is is
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  crippling me with fear or anxiety, I jump into it to learn
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  more about it because that's the only way to get comfortable with
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  something. If you learn and you embrace it
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  and then you get comfortable and then you can lead from the
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  frontline again. Yeah.
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  OK. So that, that was another way
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  for me to, to define growth is that you embrace things that are
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  outside of your comfort zone to yeah, basically get new
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  experiences and to, to find out if it's for you, yes or no.
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  Yeah, exactly. So what what was the purpose of
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  building meals? So building something that
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  because you talked about having a lot of disenfranchised
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  hoteliers on staff, what are you going to do?
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  Did you want to do different from, let's say a?
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  Traditional industry. So if you think about a
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  traditional hotel, a lot of things are done by hand, right?
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  You woke up and then there's a receptionist who's typing all
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  your personal data into a system.
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  And in the back office, it is pieces of paper with credit card
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  numbers on it, staples to other things.
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  Like it is so incredibly manual. And I ran at some point of that
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  career at Hilton, I ran a front desk for 800 rooms and it was so
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  painfully manual. And every time you want to run a
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  report to say what's the busiest day of the week in terms of
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  check insurance, there is no report that exists.
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  Umm, and you just always get stuck.
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  And, and this was the thing I was, you know, envisioning with
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  Muse. We should solve, we should the,
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  the core system had to be replaced.
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  It can't just be like lipstick on a pig.
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  We had to replace the pig to something more modern.
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  And that's really what we let's build the really, really hard
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  thing, which is the infrastructure kind of system of
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  a hotel. And then once you've got that,
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  you can do really exciting things like build an online
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  check in so guests can check themselves.
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  And no one enjoys queuing at a reception desk, giving their
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  passport, giving their credit cards, filling in registration
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  cards. Nobody in the world wants to do
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  that. So like, let's just build that.
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  And that vision that from 12 years ago has actually not
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  changed that much. The ambition has just got bigger
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  over time. Yeah.
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  So how did you get your first customer?
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  Yeah, that's really like, it's really hard.
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  What's that, Hilton? And you just went straight back
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  like, hey guys, I've got something to solve all your
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  problems or all the problems I ran into.
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  There you go. From the bottom up.
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  So initially we had built it for the hotel that Richard's family
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  runs in Prague, but that's your own hotel, so that's easy.
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  Then finding your first customer and every we just walked into
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  hotel lobbies with our laptop and said, Hey, can we show you
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  our new system? And everyone's like no scram,
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  get out. Like I've we've got a great
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  system. It's the industry leading
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  solution. And it really was very painful.
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  Like you get a lot of rejections in the beginning.
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  Luckily we found some hotelier friends of mine that were
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  willing to take a risk on us at some point.
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  And the first ten were connections or friends from the
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  industry that were taking a risk.
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  And then it starts to move. But it's it's very, very
• 13:12
  difficult. And just just to make sure it's
• 13:16
  clear what a muse does, you make software to help hotels
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  basically run a lot smoother. We basically take over the
• 13:25
  entire tech stack for our hotel from the the most visible is the
• 13:29
  reception desk, but it's other restaurants.
• 13:31
  The way that orders are taken in the restaurant, housekeepers are
• 13:34
  on smartphones inspecting rooms. It's literally every person in
• 13:37
  the hotel that works with our system.
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  So I want to move to to the the main part of of the conversation
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  because the reason you I invited you on, I've also hinted on that
• 13:50
  in the in the intro is that you're an incredibly fast
• 13:56
  growing or I don't even call it a startup.
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  It's it's a scale up. It's Unicorn, I think even and
• 14:04
  what really struck me when I first ran into Muse was that
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  it's so incredibly inclusive, but it's inclusive by design
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  almost because what I see is the inclusion and and belonging is
• 14:20
  mostly as a sort of add on. How did you build inclusion into
• 14:25
  your way of doing business, into your way of running the company
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  from the start of that? So it wasn't intentional, right?
• 14:32
  You start, you're just fighting for survival, but a gay man,
• 14:38
  naturally, you're hyper aware of things around you because you've
• 14:42
  always had to think, right? Am I going to be my true self or
• 14:45
  am I going to be the straight version of me just because
• 14:48
  that's what's expected. So that hyper awareness of your
• 14:51
  own minority, minority status even as a white man, right?
• 14:54
  So like I have an easier life because I'm a white male, but I
• 14:57
  am gay at the same time. And sometimes you have to hide
• 14:59
  that depending on what the situation is, especially if
• 15:01
  you're living in Eastern Europe, it is quite a different place.
• 15:05
  So that hyper awareness naturally built in a safety
• 15:09
  because people know if I'm struggling with something, I can
• 15:12
  turn to map because he understands what I stand for.
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  I often recognize minorities. I will randomly call them, like
• 15:20
  reach out to them saying, hey, how can I help you?
• 15:22
  How can I support you in your journey?
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  And I try and push people a little bit out of their comfort
• 15:26
  zone. And I remember a conversation
• 15:28
  that Magalie and I had a couple of years ago where I said, I
• 15:30
  think you should lean into it rather than step away from,
• 15:34
  from, you know, not talking about it.
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  You should especially you should talk about it because you have a
• 15:38
  triple kind of minority status. And I'm like, that's, that's a
• 15:42
  really powerful thing for others to hear because you are thriving
• 15:45
  in your environment. So for me, it's just naturally
• 15:47
  baked in. But also because we were in
• 15:50
  Czech Republic, a country where everyone speaks Czech at the
• 15:53
  workplace, I didn't speak it. So it was almost my laziness to
• 15:59
  not learn the language that forced us.
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  I had the conversations like, I'm really sorry, but all
• 16:03
  written conversations have to be in English.
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  So naturally the culture starts to build from the first four in
• 16:09
  English, and then as you start hiring people, you bring a much
• 16:12
  more international crowd in, and then that builds and that builds
• 16:14
  over time. So it was some unintentioned
• 16:17
  like it wasn't as a strategy once we started because we were
• 16:21
  just fighting for survival, but there was a few seeds that we
• 16:23
  planted very early on. OK, Marley, I think Mathiasia
• 16:28
  said something really powerful. He told you to lean into your
• 16:33
  identity. How did that make you feel?
• 16:36
  I remember that conversation with Matt.
• 16:38
  We were having lunch and, and I, I always speak very
• 16:41
  transparently to Matt and I told him like, I need a role model.
• 16:45
  I need a coach, a mentor that looks like me, that, that, that,
• 16:50
  that is also from a diverse background.
• 16:53
  And then Matt looked at me and said, you're it, you're that
• 16:56
  person. You were that inspiration for
• 16:58
  your other colleagues. You are a woman in the
• 17:01
  leadership position. You're a member of the LGBTQ
• 17:04
  plus community. You're also a mob.
• 17:07
  Share your experience, share your struggles, be vulnerable,
• 17:11
  open up with people. And, and I did, at first, I, I
• 17:16
  did not feel comfortable. I called a friend.
• 17:18
  I was like, this is what my CEO recommends.
• 17:20
  What do you think I should do? I, I had a lot of thought about
• 17:24
  it. And then I spoke at a company
• 17:26
  all hands in front of more than 400 people.
• 17:29
  I shared my experience, I shared my thoughts.
• 17:32
  And so many people reached out to me that day by saying, like,
• 17:36
  your testimony is having an impact on me.
• 17:40
  It's helping me be better at what I do.
• 17:43
  It's helping me come out. And it was so, so powerful to
• 17:50
  hear all those messages that I'm happy that I did.
• 17:54
  I'm happy that Matt pushed me. And I'm happy to speak also
• 17:58
  sometimes on behalf of my community because we are in a
• 18:03
  situation where every voice counts and, and we need to unite
• 18:08
  and we need to ally. So we can definitely convey
• 18:11
  those messages no matter how early your startup ages or your
• 18:17
  scale up or you are Unicorn or even a big tech, those voices
• 18:21
  matter and it's important that someone represents them and not
• 18:24
  just the CEO. Yeah.
• 18:26
  So. So is is that also a culture you
• 18:30
  want to build so that it sort of trickles down so that all the
• 18:34
  people inside a company have a role model like Magali or like
• 18:40
  yourself? Like the.
• 18:41
  I think so because like, like I only represent the white male
• 18:46
  gay community in some sense, right?
• 18:48
  So, and people don't want me to mansplain how it works for
• 18:51
  women. They want to see someone just
• 18:53
  like them that that says the right things.
• 18:56
  And so I always look for examples when I hear someone who
• 18:59
  is very open, I will reach out to them one-on-one and say, Hey,
• 19:02
  I, how comfortable are you to speak about that publicly?
• 19:05
  And I find always the conversation around diversity,
• 19:08
  equity and inclusion is really hard because, you know, probably
• 19:11
  the listeners to this, they are the converted.
• 19:14
  They do not need to be convinced that this is the right way to
• 19:16
  go. But how do we reach the ones
• 19:17
  that actually need to hear this? They're not going to tune into
• 19:20
  this podcast, but I can reach them through, for example, in
• 19:23
  all hands, if I, you know, just have a 5 minute segment in an
• 19:26
  all hands once every so often. They don't know it's coming, but
• 19:29
  it's a really personal story of someone who's experienced
• 19:32
  something and they just talk about it very humanly.
• 19:35
  This is a person that they deal with all day, every day that
• 19:38
  they now learn something new about.
• 19:39
  Like neurodiversity was one of those topics that, you know,
• 19:42
  it's invisible and when you suddenly give it a face, then
• 19:46
  they start to talk about that. And that really excites me.
• 19:49
  But I couldn't have done that. Like I couldn't have talked
• 19:51
  about minor diversity status because I don't have it.
• 19:53
  I don't understand it. So I have to find a role model
• 19:55
  for it. Is it about giving it a face?
• 19:59
  Is it? I think, I think it's the
• 20:01
  storytelling is really critical before often, you know, it
• 20:05
  doesn't land because the moment you say diversity, equity and
• 20:09
  inclusion, you've just tuned out an entire audience.
• 20:11
  Like they're like, right. I that's, that's from the left
• 20:13
  wing. I don't want to hear about it.
• 20:15
  That is not for me. But if I talk about Magali and,
• 20:18
  and her specific situation and I tell the story of Magali and the
• 20:21
  hardship that she's gone through in her life to get to where she
• 20:24
  is, people don't think that that's the EI because they don't
• 20:26
  know what the EI is. It's just a swear word from the
• 20:28
  left, but if you tell the story of a person and you don't say
• 20:32
  the word DEI, suddenly they'll listen.
• 20:34
  OK, So if I want to broaden the scope of my audience, you don't
• 20:39
  you recommend that I don't talk about DEI, but just talk about
• 20:43
  people, which is actually what I'm trying to do because it's.
• 20:47
  About I think I agree that it's issue.
• 20:51
  Yeah, that that I fully agree with.
• 20:56
  And it it doesn't. The thing is, it wasn't like
• 20:59
  this a year ago longer, but it still had some impact, but it's
• 21:02
  just become so toxic now that the people like you've got the,
• 21:07
  the people that are converted, you've got the people who are
• 21:09
  like don't want to hear a thing about it, but you've got the
• 21:11
  middle, the, the, the group of people that are just like, I'm
• 21:15
  open to it. I, I'm not probably going to sit
• 21:17
  it through an entire podcast, but I'm open to, you hear an
• 21:20
  example once every so often. So it opens my mind and it's
• 21:24
  those people that we want to reach.
• 21:25
  But because of the extremity of what the media is portraying
• 21:28
  now, they've moved away. They're like, oh, OK, OK.
• 21:31
  It's clearly toxic. I I just don't want to be
• 21:33
  associated with it, but that they're still the most important
• 21:36
  people that we have to convince. Yeah.
• 21:38
  How do you do that in the in the inside a company and also
• 21:41
  towards investors? How do you persuade them that
• 21:44
  the the way you're running the company, not necessarily as a as
• 21:48
  a diverse or as an inclusive company, but more your way of
• 21:54
  doing things? How do you persuade them, hey,
• 21:56
  this is the right thing you said stand still about telling, hey,
• 22:02
  I'm just earning you both loads of money.
• 22:04
  Have you ever had any criticism? On this, it's really hard
• 22:09
  because I leave with my mouth and like I don't really have a
• 22:12
  filter. So I do sometimes get in trouble
• 22:15
  because I say things in the wrong forum or something.
• 22:18
  But generally I lead with ask for what you can say, like you
• 22:22
  don't ask for permission, but you ask you apologize
• 22:25
  afterwards. And then strategy that I follow.
• 22:27
  I have to say the thing that's on my mind and most of the time
• 22:31
  it, it leads to the right outcome.
• 22:33
  And then whenever I get wrong, I just apologize really nicely.
• 22:35
  And you get away with that. And I think it's important, like
• 22:40
  it's the right thing to do. And most people recognize it
• 22:42
  when you explain it in the right words.
• 22:45
  And, and somehow I've I've been able to get away with most of
• 22:48
  it. But I've also always been this
• 22:50
  person. It's not a person I've become
• 22:52
  because we've got a chief people officer who tells me to be that
• 22:55
  person. I've always been this person.
• 22:56
  So if you're doing business with us like and you see me on
• 23:00
  LinkedIn, this is what you get. This is this is who I am.
• 23:04
  Yeah. And that sort of also filters
• 23:05
  away their own crowd in terms of investors, I would think.
• 23:10
  Exactly. So how does it help you have a
• 23:17
  mission to to simplify hospitality?
• 23:21
  How does that help to build get the right people on board and
• 23:25
  also to get a bit of an international crowd on?
• 23:29
  Like if you think about hospitality, everyone, everyone
• 23:32
  in the world stays in hotels. So you have to figure out a way
• 23:36
  to connect with everyone and solve everyone's needs.
• 23:40
  And I think that's why we lean into diversity so much because
• 23:42
  we're like, how do you build a product with just a group of
• 23:45
  white men that serves everyone, that understands everyone?
• 23:48
  And it's the simple things like neuroversity or color blindness
• 23:52
  or female travelers. And if you bring those people
• 23:55
  inside our company, then we build products that are more
• 23:58
  inclusive that people love because the the buyers of the
• 24:01
  products are much more diverse, the stakeholders that are
• 24:04
  evaluating us. And if they recognize that
• 24:06
  they're being recognized, they will be more likely to buy a
• 24:09
  product like Muse. And that's some of the success
• 24:12
  we're seeing because we really do look at all aspects of the
• 24:16
  diversity spectrum and we try and figure out how do we support
• 24:19
  those, those parts of it. It does require you to then
• 24:23
  bring in that diversity and, and very early on, we up until the
• 24:27
  15th employee, I think we were all men because, you know, you
• 24:31
  start with lots of developers and in the Western world,
• 24:33
  they're mostly men. And when the first women came
• 24:37
  in, and I remember the first two women that we hired, I was, I
• 24:40
  was concerned because I was like, God, these women are going
• 24:42
  to come into this male culture. And I really had to ask them
• 24:45
  saying, are you comfortable with it?
• 24:47
  How can I support you in this? Because I realized you're about
• 24:50
  to walk into this, this male man cave and it isn't, you know, we
• 24:54
  have, we're not used to having women around, but we, I just
• 24:58
  asked them and I started that conversation like, I want you to
• 25:00
  be comfortable, like, how can I support you in this environment?
• 25:04
  I'm just very directly asking people and I recognize that
• 25:08
  diversity and I'll just lean into it.
• 25:09
  If I'm, if I'm uncomfortable, I'll be the first saying, I'm
• 25:13
  really sorry, I'm going to ask you a really stupid question,
• 25:16
  but can I just, you know, what do you think about this topic?
• 25:18
  And if you start like that versus, you know, directly just
• 25:22
  ignoring that diversity status, it's very, very different.
• 25:25
  And and I get away because I smile nicely and I'll ask a dumb
• 25:29
  question then forgive me for saying stupid things out loud.
• 25:32
  And I think. That that is the best way to
• 25:35
  sometimes lead. Yeah.
• 25:37
  How did you prep the the men? Because you were in a in a man
• 25:42
  cave. How did you how did you prepare
• 25:45
  the men to OK to be welcoming to those women?
• 25:50
  Did you? I didn't actually, no, I didn't
• 25:57
  really. And I was probably should have
• 25:58
  in hindsight, like right now I would.
• 26:01
  But at that time, I was so junior, so I was just 30.
• 26:03
  I'd, you know, sure, I'd done some management jobs, but I
• 26:06
  hadn't purposely thought about it.
• 26:08
  In hindsight, I possibly should have said, you know, hey, we're
• 26:11
  starting to diversify this group of people.
• 26:14
  Are we? Do you, would you feel
• 26:15
  comfortable if you're a woman walking into this office?
• 26:17
  And I think in hindsight, I probably should have done that,
• 26:19
  Yeah. Did you make any small changes
• 26:22
  like to the toilets or to the to cleaning up the the sink?
• 26:28
  Yes, yes, I'd like to say yes, but like, honestly, we had no
• 26:33
  money for cleaners and things. So it was it was always a mess
• 26:36
  until we started to professionalize the business.
• 26:39
  It's I think the men in the office naturally started doing
• 26:42
  that because there were women around.
• 26:44
  So previously, you know, we were, we were living off
• 26:47
  Ubereats. Some desks were stacked with old
• 26:50
  foods, cartoons and stuff. But suddenly when there's women
• 26:54
  in the room or, you know, a diversity, like people feel a
• 26:57
  little bit uncomfortable and they then become aware of some
• 27:00
  of these behaviors that they have and they naturally started
• 27:02
  cleaning up after themselves. Oh, that's it.
• 27:05
  It's an inter. I do recognize it, but it's.
• 27:09
  Yeah, it's interesting that once a woman enters the room, the
• 27:12
  whole. The dynamic shifts.
• 27:15
  Yeah, yeah. So Maggie, I was wondering, from
• 27:20
  what I hear, Muse is a really safe place to work.
• 27:24
  What does a safe place look like to you?
• 27:28
  At Muse, what I like is a bit what Matt mentioned about the
• 27:33
  open communication and the vulnerability.
• 27:36
  Feeling safe means that I can discuss any topic with the
• 27:42
  leadership, with the Our People team, or with almost everyone at
• 27:46
  Muse. I, if I have struggles, if I
• 27:49
  have challenges, I, I feel comfortable and I feel safe
• 27:53
  bringing them up because if I'm feeling something, probably
• 27:57
  other people in the company are feeling the same, but I'm not
• 28:01
  scared of speaking up. And as Matt mentioned, he's also
• 28:04
  very direct when he had a question, when he has an
• 28:06
  opinion, he voices it. And it's not just because he is
• 28:11
  the CEO of the company. He encourages this type of
• 28:13
  behaviour in everyone else in the company.
• 28:17
  And it's been since they won, since I joined Muse, and now,
• 28:20
  six years later, it is the same culture that is allowing us to
• 28:25
  speak up, to disagree sometimes, to move on and commit to
• 28:30
  something even if you disagree. But this open communication and
• 28:33
  this forum of transparency is what helps me feel safe.
• 28:38
  But it's also in creating environments where you, we are
• 28:45
  intentionally talking about those topics like diversity,
• 28:49
  like neurodiversity, like being queer at work, like being a
• 28:53
  parent at work. It is it is building the
• 28:56
  intention and to turning our company into a space
• 28:59
  environment. And even if my side, like
• 29:03
  probably in the beginning, it was not intentional.
• 29:05
  It was just a wish or a desire from his side or and from the
• 29:08
  founders side. And that in that wish became
• 29:12
  something that was built into Muse DNA.
• 29:15
  And today I feel that we're in a situation that if Matt were to
• 29:20
  leave Muse or if our Chief People officer were to leave
• 29:23
  Muse, we're in a very good place because the foundations of this
• 29:28
  safety is built and it's very strong.
• 29:32
  And this is what is allowing us to scale is that because we were
• 29:36
  able to create a safe space for everyone to thrive in and to be
• 29:43
  able to share their experience, their expertise, their concerns
• 29:47
  that we are in a better place now to to build something even
• 29:50
  stronger on those foundations. And it's it's a translation of
• 29:56
  what Matt's been trying to build, but also what everyone in
• 29:59
  the company are building as well.
• 30:01
  It's not just a one person job, but it's everyone that is part
• 30:04
  of building that culture. Today we have ERG groups.
• 30:09
  Every RG group has a different topic, but we have the women at
• 30:13
  News that are building a strong future for women in tech, but
• 30:16
  also for women at News. And those are very strong
• 30:20
  programs where we ask ourselves the question, what would make it
• 30:25
  a better place for us at News or in the word of tech.
• 30:28
  So those programs are sponsored by our leadership.
• 30:32
  They're sponsored by the company and they're allowing us to be
• 30:36
  creative to to be innovative and to think about what the future
• 30:40
  would look like for us. And, and I feel that this is
• 30:43
  incredible and this is how Safety at Work translates today.
• 30:48
  Yeah, so also that you can speak your mind, you can be yourself,
• 30:55
  which going back all the way to beginning was what you were
• 31:00
  looking for in a job. So and it's, and what struck me
• 31:08
  in your answer is that it's a sort of, it's not just at the
• 31:13
  top, someone shouting from the top, hey, we thou shall or be be
• 31:21
  yourself. But it's also facilitated
• 31:24
  through Ergs through and also through the people inside the
• 31:30
  company. Yes, exactly it is.
• 31:32
  It is becoming part of our DNA and it's everyone's
• 31:36
  responsibility, but it's also evolving because you cannot
• 31:41
  build everything from the start. You build, you iterate, you
• 31:45
  build, you grow, you make it better.
• 31:47
  And I remember when I became a mom at Muse, I, I, I came back
• 31:52
  from my, my 6 month maternity leave and I was completely lost.
• 31:57
  And I, I did not know if I was going to have the same job.
• 32:02
  I did not know. It was the first time for me
• 32:04
  being a mom. And during my maternity leave,
• 32:09
  people reached out to me, my former manager reached out to me
• 32:12
  and he's like, we're, we're, we're waiting for you.
• 32:14
  You're going to, you're going to be a mom, you're going to be a
• 32:17
  mom leader. You're always going to have a
• 32:19
  job at news, even if you're on a six month maternity break.
• 32:24
  And only those words felt reassuring, but it also meant
• 32:29
  that we did not have a program around it because I was not the
• 32:33
  only parent, right? You had a lot of parents coming
• 32:35
  back to work. And that sparked like a light
• 32:38
  bulb on in our people team and in the leadership team saying,
• 32:41
  OK, like this is the time where we we have to start building for
• 32:44
  the future because more and more of our team members will go on
• 32:49
  parental leave and come back. How do we build a program where
• 32:52
  they feel safe coming back to work, where they feel that they
• 32:54
  have the support of our company when they come back to work
• 32:58
  after such a such a long break? And this is what I mean by
• 33:02
  building as you grow is that you cannot build everything from
• 33:05
  scratch. When you're a start up, you have
• 33:07
  a million other priorities, but it's adding small pieces to the
• 33:11
  puzzle every time you're faced with a new situation.
• 33:15
  It is allowing us to grow. Yeah.
• 33:17
  And also taking things as they just come naturally.
• 33:20
  So over time you will run into people becoming a parent and
• 33:25
  then, oh, now we have to do something.
• 33:28
  So it's yeah. Yeah.
• 33:30
  Like and like that's where as we started growing and and our
• 33:35
  entire population of muses got older.
• 33:37
  So once they start hitting their 30s and mid 30s, suddenly
• 33:39
  children started appearing. Yeah.
• 33:40
  But then we've got to be deliberate about it because
• 33:42
  we're now operating, operating in 20 more countries where we
• 33:46
  have employees and not everyone is getting equal parental cover.
• 33:51
  And we said we have to have a policy that is inclusive
• 33:54
  because, you know, in some US you get what, 3 days something I
• 33:59
  don't even know whether it's so ridiculously bad.
• 34:01
  And then you get some countries where it's incredibly long.
• 34:05
  And we said we have to have a minimum baseline because we
• 34:07
  think it's important that, you know, women should or sorry that
• 34:10
  the primary care caregiver, it's important that we call it the,
• 34:13
  the correct wording. The primary caregiver gets six
• 34:15
  months and the secondary caregiver gets two months and
• 34:20
  that allows that's much more inclusive in language to work,
• 34:24
  you know, moving on from women to just any gender because you
• 34:27
  know, God knows what a couple looks like.
• 34:30
  And that also is saying to the people like we value you, we
• 34:34
  value that, you know, you need to spend time with your family,
• 34:37
  but hopefully you will come back because we make an investment in
• 34:40
  you. And then when you come back,
• 34:41
  hopefully you will have several years that you're going to stick
• 34:44
  with us and return on that investment.
• 34:47
  But young parents should spend time with their families because
• 34:50
  if you take that away from them, you know, that is not going to
• 34:52
  help their, you know, workplace happiness.
• 34:56
  And it's hard because, yes, a person will leave for six
• 34:59
  months, and there's work that needs to be done that somehow
• 35:01
  sits in that void, but that we figure out.
• 35:04
  And I think it's more important ethically to make sure that
• 35:07
  people get to spend time at home with their families because then
• 35:11
  they'll come back more loyal afterwards.
• 35:13
  And hopefully it deals with some of the gender pay gap that we
• 35:16
  see. We definitely have a gender pay
• 35:19
  gap at news that I am very unhappy about.
• 35:22
  But it is a long term commitment to solve for that.
• 35:26
  And this is one of those things that we've done to help fix
• 35:28
  that. What, what, what is out of
• 35:31
  curiosity on the on the pay gap, what makes it difficult to solve
• 35:36
  that sort of in one goal? Because it's, it's not equal pay
• 35:40
  for equal jobs, right? So if you are a director of
• 35:43
  deployments and you're a woman, you'll get the same salary if
• 35:47
  and then if you were a man. It is about their progression
• 35:50
  inside the company. Women just don't progress as
• 35:54
  fast across the company. So if you take all the salaries
• 35:57
  and you, you, you divide them into quartiles in terms of pay
• 36:01
  equity, women just don't progress in their careers as
• 36:04
  fast as men do, and that's creating the gender pay gap.
• 36:08
  We publicly talk about this once a year.
• 36:10
  We publish our results, which we don't yet legally have to.
• 36:13
  But I can't wait for that moment that all companies have to do
• 36:15
  this and it creates this responsibility to management to
• 36:20
  lean into it saying, well, why do we have a pay gap and where
• 36:22
  is it coming from? And what can we do better to
• 36:25
  make women thrive in the workplace?
• 36:26
  Or we look at the hiring, like for some roles, you just are
• 36:32
  given male candidates and we we just have to ask her at the top
• 36:35
  of the funnel. I want a more diverse top of
• 36:38
  funnel. And yes, the best person for the
• 36:39
  job might be a male candidate, but I still want to see women
• 36:43
  that are qualified for it to make sure that we've we've gone
• 36:46
  through that process. Yeah, that we actually did
• 36:49
  select the best person for the job.
• 36:51
  Exactly. And that we can prove that it's
• 36:53
  the best person for that job. And then looking at how, you
• 36:56
  know, how do you interview because people with biases will
• 37:01
  lean into certain types of questions to, you know, I will
• 37:05
  identify much more easily with a white homosexual than I do with
• 37:09
  a white male just naturally, because that's where my
• 37:11
  inclination is. But I need to remove those
• 37:14
  biases in the interview process. So we're trying to really work
• 37:16
  with scorecards and standardize questions that we're asking.
• 37:19
  We use Metaview to record all of our interviews and it gives us
• 37:23
  suggestions and coaching and your your talk to listen ratio.
• 37:27
  And it's really helpful because AI is really good at filtering
• 37:30
  out whether you have unconscious biases that you need to address
• 37:33
  through training in some way. Is is that something that you've
• 37:38
  built yourself, this software? No, we, we, we buy it and we've
• 37:43
  changed many times because AI is moving at such such a speed.
• 37:47
  But we always want to be at the forefront of buying the best
• 37:50
  innovative technology. So your standard scorecards you
• 37:55
  have to develop, but you need a software that supports it.
• 37:58
  And there's some really good solutions out there now.
• 38:01
  OK. Oh, that's that.
• 38:03
  Well, that's cool to hear that at least that the entry side of
• 38:09
  things, it's taken care of. So I want to circle back a bit
• 38:16
  to the to the gender pay gap in terms of career progression.
• 38:21
  How do you solve for that within Muse and how does it influence
• 38:26
  culture? So we always, we look at the
• 38:30
  gender pay gap we have and then we break it down by department,
• 38:33
  by region to understand where it comes from.
• 38:36
  And we have, we have like management development tracks.
• 38:39
  So we have an internal learning and development team that has
• 38:42
  manager tracks. We've got an employee resource
• 38:45
  group that focuses on women and, and, and other diversities.
• 38:49
  So you really start to just lean into saying, OK, if women need a
• 38:52
  role model, where would they turn to?
• 38:54
  They turn to the employee resource group to find people
• 38:56
  like them that are open in this group, this really safe
• 39:00
  environment. They're not going to naturally
• 39:02
  find and now a person that it has a neurodiversity difficulty,
• 39:10
  but they might find them in the ERG for neurodiversity.
• 39:13
  And it's really finding role models that then become become a
• 39:17
  mentor that can say, you know, why are you stuck in your
• 39:19
  career? What can I help do to help you
• 39:21
  progress in your career? So we really think about the
• 39:24
  entire employee life cycle. So we mapped out and we're in
• 39:27
  this process of remapping it now of when an employee enters to
• 39:30
  when they leave and, and what are all the moments of contact
• 39:33
  and career progression moments and performance reviews.
• 39:36
  And then we look at it, well, how do we go about performance
• 39:39
  reviews and, and salary reviews and, and, and high performers
• 39:43
  versus low performers and how do we deal with that?
• 39:46
  And every touchpoint is one of those points where we should
• 39:48
  have someone asked a question saying is there any bias in this
• 39:52
  process? How are we addressing that in
• 39:53
  the right way? And it isn't clear cuts but.
• 39:57
  Also, what I'm hearing you say that when it comes to the ER GS,
• 40:03
  it actually in a positive way uses those biases.
• 40:08
  To help people thrive. I honestly never thought so.
• 40:16
  With the first time I've heard about Ergs, I was like, oh,
• 40:18
  that's just some corporate mumbo jumbo.
• 40:21
  I was like, this is just a thing we have to do because that's
• 40:23
  what the corporates expect. And now we're a big old grown up
• 40:25
  company. But actually we did one thing
• 40:30
  differently because often Ergs are like a passion project and
• 40:33
  you do it on the side besides your very, very busy job and you
• 40:35
  don't get paid for it. And it's like, that's just wrong
• 40:38
  because these people are doing something really important.
• 40:40
  They're building culture and they're diversifying our, our
• 40:43
  customer, our employee ways. So we started paying them an
• 40:46
  equity. So you get equity shares, long
• 40:49
  term output from building culture.
• 40:52
  So that was one of the things we dramatically shifted.
• 40:55
  But also, once I started seeing the output of the Ergs, it's
• 40:58
  really powerful when, you know, we had the pride all hands two
• 41:03
  weeks ago. There's so many stories that you
• 41:05
  just don't know about that they're doing in the background.
• 41:08
  And and yes, it is still very corporate mumbo jumbo, but it
• 41:12
  actually works. And that's why it's worth
• 41:14
  investing into it because it is a place of safety that people
• 41:17
  with a diversity background can turn to, to find role models, to
• 41:20
  learn how to deal with specific situations.
• 41:22
  And it genuinely works. Yeah.
• 41:24
  So Magali, the safe space that Muse is, how can you share a bit
• 41:32
  of how it has helped you performance wise and career
• 41:38
  wise? Definitely because I've, as I
• 41:41
  mentioned before, I came from environments where I did not
• 41:45
  feel safe. And what does that look like?
• 41:49
  First of all, you see the impact on your mental health.
• 41:53
  Your anxiety kicks in you you come into work every day with a
• 41:57
  will to escape the fastest possible way.
• 42:00
  You're scared of making a move. You've, you've put your energy
• 42:04
  and you focus on the things that don't really matter, on how you
• 42:07
  look and how you speak, on how you act and how you interact.
• 42:11
  That means that you don't have energy left to actually perform
• 42:14
  and to produce anything. And I felt this when I was in
• 42:19
  unsafe environments. I felt that I was blocked and I
• 42:23
  was just not delivering the quality and the the the work
• 42:29
  that looks like me and. How did how did you feel that?
• 42:33
  You're just, you don't have energy left.
• 42:36
  You don't have energy left. I was working in a hotel.
• 42:38
  I did not have energy left to go meet my customers.
• 42:40
  I did not want to because I had spent an hour and a half of my
• 42:46
  morning making sure that I looked like something
• 42:51
  appropriate for my peers, that I could hide myself and I could I
• 42:57
  that I needed to remember everything that I had said
• 42:59
  during our last interactions because it was probably
• 43:05
  something that was going to come up in the Monday morning
• 43:07
  discussion. So, for example, I would get a
• 43:10
  question like, what did you do this weekend?
• 43:11
  And I wanted to hide that I was back then dating a woman.
• 43:15
  So I would just come up with different things to divert the
• 43:17
  attention. But then on Monday morning, I
• 43:20
  put all my energy into this, this interaction with my
• 43:23
  colleagues and with my peers. What am I going to tell them?
• 43:25
  What did I actually do this weekend?
• 43:27
  How did I feel? So it was just creating
• 43:31
  something fake at the end of the day, instead of focusing on who
• 43:34
  are my customers, what kind of service, where I was I going to
• 43:37
  give them. And it was probably me that
• 43:41
  needed to do this work on myself.
• 43:43
  But it was all that I could think about.
• 43:46
  And at the end, it just diverted the attention from what what I
• 43:50
  was supposed to deliver to something else.
• 43:53
  And at first I was not very conscious about it, but at, at
• 43:58
  some points I would go into meetings and get out of meetings
• 44:02
  by saying I did not contribute once.
• 44:05
  I did not. I did not say one thing.
• 44:08
  I was a member of the executive committee of this, this hotel or
• 44:11
  of this group. And I, I did not want to share
• 44:15
  my opinions anymore because I was most of the time I was
• 44:19
  interrupted. I was dismissed.
• 44:21
  My opinion was like OK, thank you very much.
• 44:25
  You said something in a 2 hour meeting and I was shut down.
• 44:28
  I was not listened to and at the end it meant that I didn't know.
• 44:32
  I no longer wanted to share anything.
• 44:34
  I was just demotivated. I was scared and I felt that it
• 44:39
  was just a vicious circle of me not contributing, them having a
• 44:43
  bad impression of me. And then it was just a toxic
• 44:47
  circle. I had to get out of it.
• 44:49
  And I saw the difference when I joined Muse.
• 44:52
  And from the first two weeks at Muse, I felt that it was OK,
• 44:57
  that they couldn't care less who I was dating, who I was, what
• 45:03
  kind of. Fashion.
• 45:05
  Stand to be fair, we had the new hire orientation and Matt
• 45:13
  specifically meets everyone that the new hire orientation and he
• 45:16
  always starts with an intro of this is me.
• 45:20
  This is the picture of back then his boyfriend and this is a
• 45:24
  picture of my dog Beyoncé. And I was sitting in that room.
• 45:28
  I was like, OK, I'm here. They have rainbow flags on their
• 45:32
  website, but it's not marketing, it's not fake.
• 45:35
  You have your CEO standing up in front of a room of 25 people and
• 45:39
  saying, hi, this is Matt and this is my boyfriend.
• 45:43
  And the fact that he like his opening sentence is, is this, it
• 45:48
  sets the tone right? And then we jump into business.
• 45:51
  But I, I learned that OK, I was in a safe environment.
• 45:55
  If my CEO is OK, then I'm OK. If you can make it to sea level
• 46:00
  being who you are, it means that I, my career is not stuck
• 46:04
  because of who I am. And it was not just Matt, it was
• 46:07
  everyone. It was the first interaction
• 46:10
  where everyone feels OK to share in 2 words who they are.
• 46:15
  I'm a family person, I have two kids, I have a dog, I like
• 46:18
  hiking. And it's that introduction
• 46:21
  around who you are, then what you do that is creating the
• 46:25
  foundation of a safe space. And I felt it immediately
• 46:29
  because it took me two weeks to come out at Muse.
• 46:34
  And then this opened the door for me to to other things, to my
• 46:38
  family, to to some member of my extended circle.
• 46:41
  They had no idea. And this is what it meant for
• 46:46
  me, that one, from a career point of view, I was safe.
• 46:50
  It meant that I had no limits, I had no boundaries anymore and
• 46:54
  that I could come out and you have this feeling of of safety
• 46:59
  six years later when the company is bigger, when new hire
• 47:03
  orientation is something more structured than before.
• 47:07
  But everyone that joins muse today has the same feeling is
• 47:11
  that start with who you are. If you want to, this is a safe
• 47:16
  space. And then let's dive into
• 47:18
  business once we have removed all those invisible blockers
• 47:22
  that are not allowing you to perform.
• 47:24
  And this has helped me immensely because my first two weeks when
• 47:29
  I started working, I felt something different in, in me
• 47:33
  and how I was attending meetings, how I was talking, how
• 47:37
  I was speaking. And I, I, I found my old self by
• 47:42
  knowing I, I am a competent person.
• 47:44
  I, I know what I do. I am an expert in my field, but
• 47:48
  I was no longer in a position where I had to hide it, where I
• 47:51
  had to shush it. On the contrary, it's like you,
• 47:54
  you, you just turn on the engine.
• 47:55
  And then I was flying And that, that helped me and it, it
• 48:00
  continuously helps me every time I pause and I assess the
• 48:03
  situation because sometimes, let's face it, not everything is
• 48:08
  great, even at Muse. And sometimes I am in situations
• 48:12
  where like, OK, I get out of this meeting, I don't feel it.
• 48:16
  What, what, what went, what went wrong?
• 48:18
  Why did I not voice my opinion? Why didn't I raise my hand and
• 48:23
  say I disagree? And it's allowing me just to
• 48:26
  take a step back and reflect who was in the room with me?
• 48:30
  Why did I felt intimidated? What could I have done better?
• 48:34
  And I know that I have the ability now to talk about it.
• 48:38
  I can just pick up the phone and call that person and say, hey,
• 48:40
  listen, during the meeting, the 1st 10 minutes, you kept
• 48:43
  interrupting me. I don't really perform well in
• 48:48
  this type of situation. Can we please be cautious of
• 48:52
  next times? And I learned this.
• 48:54
  I just, I now I stand in front of my mirror and I, I, I
• 48:58
  question it. What happens if I get
• 49:01
  interrupted in a meeting? I usually, I'm usually
• 49:03
  frustrated and I get annoyed and I can be very, I can show that
• 49:08
  I'm frustrated, but I learned also to take a step back and
• 49:11
  say, OK, let's just talk to that person.
• 49:12
  Maybe it was not intentional. Maybe that person was not aware
• 49:16
  that they were interrupting me. And it's the ability of just
• 49:19
  opening up the conversation and and just talking that is
• 49:24
  allowing us to improve, not just myself, but all the stakeholders
• 49:27
  as well. So it's.
• 49:29
  There's two sides to the diversity thing that you talked
• 49:32
  about. There's the you're not
• 49:34
  comfortable to share personal parts of your life, so you hide
• 49:37
  them. And then you have to remember
• 49:38
  what you said. And then all you do is think
• 49:40
  about how, how am I dealing with that situation?
• 49:43
  And you're not focused on the work.
• 49:44
  But then there's the people that are there to judge you and to
• 49:47
  promote you who are like, she's she's hiding something, like
• 49:50
  there's something wrong with this person.
• 49:53
  I don't want to hang out with them.
• 49:54
  They're hiding something. And when a promotion comes up,
• 49:57
  they will go with the, the, the, the person that's most natural,
• 50:00
  that they trust. And, and there's two sides to
• 50:02
  that. And that's part of the reason
• 50:04
  why it's so hard to solve this, because unless you create an
• 50:09
  environment where people can speak up and open up, you will
• 50:11
  never get to know all of the people.
• 50:13
  And you know, the, the, the, the other sex will, will thrive in
• 50:17
  that environment. So there's so many layers to
• 50:20
  this challenge. But I, I recognize what Magadie
• 50:22
  is saying. I recognize that in some
• 50:24
  situations, like I'll get into an Uber here in Amsterdam
• 50:28
  sometimes and I'm like, right, he's he was like, oh, your wife
• 50:31
  this and that. And do I correct him or do I
• 50:34
  just go with it because it's the safest thing?
• 50:35
  I'm in a car with a stranger in the middle of nowhere.
• 50:38
  I'm probably just going to go with it because I don't know
• 50:41
  what he thinks. And you're always making these
• 50:43
  decisions, but every time you do it, you're unnatural in your
• 50:47
  communication. And that somehow it is seen by
• 50:50
  people. Yeah, people sense that.
• 50:52
  Yeah, yeah. And and I actually that's
• 50:56
  powerful that you share this last bit Matthais, that actually
• 51:01
  those people share it. It also again, if you can't be
• 51:04
  yourself, if you can't be your true self, if you hide, have to
• 51:08
  hide things and have to make sure to your point, Magali, that
• 51:12
  you have to remember, Oh, I said this and this there and there.
• 51:16
  So I have to keep things straight and then I can't take
• 51:21
  off, go off the line. It's sort of becomes a sort of
• 51:25
  rehearsed pitch rather than true story.
• 51:30
  Exactly. And you cannot perform.
• 51:32
  You cannot perform well. Your energy is focused on
• 51:35
  something else. I'd rather focus my energy on my
• 51:39
  performance on, on doing my job correctly.
• 51:43
  And, and you see when that weight is off your shoulders
• 51:47
  that you can focus on the things that matter, my productivity, my
• 51:49
  efficiency, my, my job as a leader.
• 51:52
  This is what's important. And at the end, I'm here to
• 51:56
  build a high performing team and Muse is also building a high
• 52:00
  performing team. I just want to make sure that
• 52:02
  my, I am comfortable and then my team is comfortable at work so
• 52:07
  they can perform, so they can outperform themselves and
• 52:10
  continue breaking their ceiling and, and pushing for more
• 52:14
  innovation, more creativity. And you can only do this when
• 52:17
  you're, when you're in a good place, when you're in a safe
• 52:20
  place. I want to double click on
• 52:24
  something you said about rehearsing in front of the
• 52:28
  mirror because you, you're, you're asking yourself these
• 52:36
  questions. What happened?
• 52:40
  How can I, what can I do better? Or maybe what should I tell the
• 52:45
  other person how it made me feel when we spoke before you told me
• 52:52
  that you had built some sort of coach for people inside Muse
• 52:59
  that they can actually see how they performed in meetings and
• 53:03
  where they sort of can do the same.
• 53:07
  Tell us a bit more about that because it's, it's got me my
• 53:12
  mind racing, I can tell you. Yes, it's it's been racing my
• 53:16
  mind for almost 2 weeks, even 3. But a while ago, Matt was
• 53:21
  sharing his story of how he was able to build a bot in less than
• 53:27
  3 hours. It was a very inspiring talk on
• 53:30
  LinkedIn, but also within the company where he's like, listen,
• 53:33
  I've built this. It took me half a day, but I'm
• 53:36
  happy that I built a coach. And I encourage you all, sorry
• 53:39
  your boss and I encourage you all to look into AI because this
• 53:43
  is what's going on in the industry.
• 53:45
  And I, I, I was staring at a blank page.
• 53:48
  I did not know what I wanted to build.
• 53:51
  So I started a blank page for about a week and then and I had
• 53:55
  a reflection what would help me, what would help me get better at
• 53:58
  my job. And I love receiving feedback
• 54:02
  because I feel that this is the only way that I can grow.
• 54:05
  So I built an AI coach that reads my meeting transcripts and
• 54:11
  that gives me recommendation. And first of all, the the first
• 54:16
  recommendation were were very tough to read, but then I made
• 54:20
  it around my my interaction specifically as a woman when I
• 54:25
  was either leading a meeting or attending a meeting.
• 54:29
  And that coach today analysis what I say, how I say it, how I
• 54:36
  handle objections, how I handle microaggressions, how I handle
• 54:40
  interruptions. Am I conveying the right
• 54:43
  opinion? Am I making a point and it
• 54:47
  analysis based on the seniority levels of attendees in my
• 54:51
  meetings. So if I am facing AVP position
• 54:56
  or AC level or if I am leading my team, how how are my
• 55:01
  interactions changing? And it's also giving me
• 55:05
  recommendation on what are the things that I should avoid doing
• 55:09
  and the things that I could start practicing.
• 55:12
  And the first, the first transcripts were not easy, but I
• 55:18
  had noticed a lot of things that I'm very apologetic in meetings.
• 55:23
  And I knew that I was doing this.
• 55:25
  But once I took every transcript of meeting and I saw that every
• 55:31
  single meeting, I was apologizing about something,
• 55:33
  either my bad Internet or the fact that I could not see the
• 55:36
  screen or the fact that I did not have an answer to a
• 55:39
  question. And that came out several times
• 55:44
  or the fact that I had a strong opinion, but whenever someone
• 55:49
  had an objection, I tended to dismiss my opinion and to let
• 55:52
  other participants argument their own opinion.
• 55:57
  And at the end, you're like, OK, whatever you do, whatever you
• 56:00
  want. And those things I, I knew about
• 56:04
  them, but when I read about them and when you have a coach that
• 56:09
  says you had a strong opinion in the beginning of the meeting,
• 56:12
  what happened to it? Why didn't you stick to it?
• 56:15
  It was eye opening and it was great for me, but I also wanted
• 56:19
  to share it with, with peers. So I, I, I gave it to a few
• 56:24
  members of the women at Muse ERG.
• 56:27
  So we tested it. We were about 40 women to test
• 56:30
  it. And everyone had the same
• 56:32
  feedback by saying, OK, it's incredible that it's about it's,
• 56:36
  it's pinpointing exactly what's what in my communication.
• 56:39
  I could enhance, it's making me better, but it's also giving me
• 56:43
  recommendation of sentences that I could use instead of saying,
• 56:47
  sorry, I can't see the screen, I suggest that you rephrase by
• 56:51
  saying, can you make the screen a bit bigger?
• 56:54
  It is very slight recommendation, but so far the
• 56:58
  tool is working. A lot of women are using it.
• 57:01
  And I've made it public to everyone at Muse a few days ago.
• 57:05
  So I'm, I'm really hoping that we'll start using it in our
• 57:09
  meetings and then it will also help coach other women in the
• 57:12
  company because I really found it very beneficial.
• 57:16
  Yeah. Do you think it also would
• 57:18
  benefit men to get a reflection on how they're interacting in
• 57:25
  meetings and how they can perform?
• 57:28
  Maybe not perform better in terms of the meeting structure,
• 57:32
  but more in terms of how they can make meetings more
• 57:37
  inclusive. I definitely think it could
• 57:41
  benefit men. We have a a Muse constitution,
• 57:45
  the constitution of Muse that is made of several articles and
• 57:50
  what Muse expects of you in terms of performance,
• 57:54
  innovation, etcetera. But there's a whole piece about
• 57:58
  interactions, respects human interactions, being aware of
• 58:04
  other people's diversity, being inclusive in your meetings.
• 58:07
  I think I could definitely incorporate that element of this
• 58:10
  constitution and give recommendation on how to become
• 58:15
  a great ally to your, to your team and how to become a more
• 58:19
  inclusive manager if you're, if you're a male at Muse and I, I
• 58:24
  think it would definitely be a good tool for everyone, not just
• 58:27
  for women. Yes.
• 58:29
  OK, I see Matt Nott. I hate it.
• 58:32
  It's terrible idea. OK.
• 58:39
  I was wondering Mathias bit going back to to a question I
• 58:46
  asked earlier. Let me proceed this question
• 58:50
  because you asked everyone to play around with AI.
• 58:55
  At the beginning, you said something that struck me in the
• 59:00
  sense that you were a bit scared of AI.
• 59:04
  What was that and what changed it?
• 59:07
  Yeah, When AI came out in, what is it, November 2022, I think
• 59:10
  the first time you saw it, you're like, wow, this could,
• 59:13
  this could destroy our business. Like the first thought as a tech
• 59:16
  entrepreneur is like, this could destroy everything that we've
• 59:19
  built overnight if I don't figure this out because you
• 59:24
  didn't know how fast it was going to develop and how good it
• 59:27
  was going to be. And luckily it's not as extreme
• 59:30
  in that sense. But in the moment, you don't
• 59:31
  know. So there's just this fear of I
• 59:33
  don't understand it. I don't know how fast it can go
• 59:37
  and what it can do to our business.
• 59:38
  And in that fear, you can either say, well, let's just see what
• 59:41
  happens, or you can figure out what happens yourself.
• 59:45
  And you want to be at the forefront of the, the innovative
• 59:48
  side of it and just figure it out.
• 59:51
  And, and that's really what like initially I asked a marketing
• 59:56
  team to put me on a stage, get me a keynote to talk about AI
• 59:59
  and hospitality. I said, just find me a stage
• 1:00:01
  because that's the forcing function for me to actually have
• 1:00:04
  a story. And it led to us really talking
• 1:00:08
  about, well, what are we going to actually do with AI inside
• 1:00:10
  our products? So the forcing function is the
• 1:00:13
  fear. Then put me on a stage, I'll
• 1:00:16
  learn it, and then it becomes part of the strategy.
• 1:00:20
  And earlier this year, I felt. Did you think it's food like
• 1:00:24
  that? No, but it's a behavior that
• 1:00:27
  I've taught myself generally. Like every time I feel nervous
• 1:00:31
  about something, I need to lean into it.
• 1:00:33
  Like because I just don't want to ever feel nervous because I
• 1:00:36
  will ask the dumb questions out loud, but only if I recognize
• 1:00:40
  that I'm actually interested in learning a new skill.
• 1:00:43
  It's just recognized fear. That's the most powerful thing
• 1:00:46
  that I can tell anyone to do. And then just lean into it.
• 1:00:49
  Just go and figure it out. And most things you can solve, I
• 1:00:52
  find. So, you know, there's some
• 1:00:54
  projects at Muse that are not particularly going well and
• 1:00:59
  like. OK.
• 1:01:00
  How do I deal with that? Like I don't have time for it
• 1:01:03
  but I realized that these are massive cross functional
• 1:01:06
  projects that are failing and I should be there.
• 1:01:09
  I need to figure out what's going wrong.
• 1:01:11
  And it's this, this ability to be like AT shaped engineer,
• 1:01:15
  you've got that notion of, you know, being a specialist, but
• 1:01:18
  also having enough information about the rest of the
• 1:01:20
  organization to kind of contextualize everything.
• 1:01:23
  And, and I want to be this T shape.
• 1:01:25
  I can dive into a very specific topic, get to the detail, make a
• 1:01:29
  decision, pull back out and get back up to the surface level.
• 1:01:33
  And I think that's one of those really important skills that
• 1:01:35
  I've just learned through the years to hone hone.
• 1:01:38
  And initially, in the old times, we would call that
• 1:01:40
  micromanagement. Today, I think it's a really
• 1:01:43
  important leadership skill. This is brilliant.
• 1:01:49
  We used to call it micromanagement.
• 1:01:51
  Yeah, we rebranded it. This I got to keep for the
• 1:01:55
  quotes, but going back to the to the AI, why did you ask other
• 1:02:02
  people also to to start building their own AI?
• 1:02:07
  There's two stages to learning something and there's the the
• 1:02:11
  keratin stick, right? So initially it was a carrot,
• 1:02:13
  like let's make people comfortable with it.
• 1:02:15
  We had to talk a lot about AI. Let's make sure that all the
• 1:02:18
  tools are available across Muse. And it was a very friendly
• 1:02:21
  stage. And that stage took about a
• 1:02:23
  year, 2 years. And at some point, I was like, I
• 1:02:27
  actually feel that it's time for the stick to come out, which is
• 1:02:30
  a very aggressive way to say it. But I was like, why are people
• 1:02:34
  not doing more with AI and we're not getting the efficiency
• 1:02:38
  gains? And the only way for me to force
• 1:02:41
  that culture was by me to build a bot myself, record myself in
• 1:02:45
  the process of doing that, edit that video myself, drop it on
• 1:02:49
  the Internet and then go back to our leadership team.
• 1:02:52
  And I went, we had an offsite last week in Prague.
• 1:02:55
  And two months ago, I dropped that video.
• 1:02:57
  And then I went to that group of 70 people that were coming to
• 1:03:00
  the offsite. And I said you only get to come
• 1:03:03
  if you share your bots with us. If you do not share your bots in
• 1:03:05
  advance, you don't get to come to the off site.
• 1:03:07
  So 70 people build a bot, shared it publicly and some not so
• 1:03:13
  great, but they had a lesson. Some the the winners were the
• 1:03:17
  salespeople. There was three people from the
• 1:03:19
  go to market team that actually ended up winning the award from
• 1:03:22
  70 people. It wasn't the developers, it
• 1:03:24
  wasn't the product leaders. It was the people that were
• 1:03:26
  brand new to it who felt the deep pain of their job and they
• 1:03:30
  built some of the most innovative bots.
• 1:03:32
  But it was the forcing function of the stick basically saying,
• 1:03:35
  sorry, no, you only get to come to this really important offsite
• 1:03:38
  if you build it and you show it to us.
• 1:03:40
  And people afterwards told me, I really did not like that you
• 1:03:44
  made me do that task until I did it and until I struggled for
• 1:03:47
  five hours. And the lessons I've learned
• 1:03:49
  through those five hours were more than I've ever learned in
• 1:03:51
  the last year. Because it's so powerful.
• 1:03:54
  When you start to talk to AI and all the wires start to connect
• 1:03:58
  in your head, it's like, oh, this is how it all works and
• 1:04:00
  this is how it comes together. And the 1st AI bot is the
• 1:04:03
  dumbest one. But then you've got the baseline
• 1:04:06
  and then you can build on that and you can make it better and
• 1:04:08
  better iteratively. We're living in one of the most
• 1:04:10
  exciting times in technology right now.
• 1:04:12
  I think that was not my opinion three years ago, but that is
• 1:04:15
  what it's had has become over time.
• 1:04:17
  And I've got to like prophet, prophesize that to the world
• 1:04:21
  now. Yeah.
• 1:04:22
  Do you have a programming background by the way?
• 1:04:25
  No, I'm a hotelier. I know nothing about coding.
• 1:04:28
  So you had to teach yourself coding and you don't build.
• 1:04:32
  You don't honestly, if you can talk like a normal human being,
• 1:04:36
  you can build an AI bot today. If you've got a problem to
• 1:04:40
  solve, you can build an AI bot by just talking to it and and
• 1:04:45
  just using, you know, every time you get stuck, you just say, my
• 1:04:49
  bot did this thing. What did I get wrong?
• 1:04:51
  How do I fix it? And honestly it would just give
• 1:04:53
  you the answer and it will say you know, I build a chat bot and
• 1:04:58
  I got stuck because he wasn't answering the question.
• 1:05:00
  I said why is it not answering the question?
• 1:05:01
  And I realized I hadn't connect the the the database of answers
• 1:05:05
  to the questions and I hadn't saved it in a database and
• 1:05:09
  connected the dots. These are stupid but you, you
• 1:05:12
  learn so fast and AI is really good so you do not need to learn
• 1:05:15
  to code. But that's cool, and that also
• 1:05:18
  opens it up to indeed people who don't have the the coding
• 1:05:23
  background. Every single person can build
• 1:05:26
  with AI today. That's, that's good to hear and
• 1:05:30
  encouraging to hear also that there are forward-looking CE OS
• 1:05:34
  who just forced that. It's scary, yeah.
• 1:05:39
  No, no, no. But let let let me put it this
• 1:05:42
  way that let's employees face their fears in a positive way.
• 1:05:46
  And then maybe Phil. But hey, yeah, at least you
• 1:05:49
  tried. Yeah, exactly.
• 1:05:52
  OK, so Mattache, what if you could give other founders who
• 1:06:01
  want to build, looking back also on your journey with Muse, if
• 1:06:08
  other founders would like to build a company that is as high
• 1:06:13
  performing and as inclusive as Muse, what would you recommend
• 1:06:18
  they do? What would be the first step and
• 1:06:21
  something that they definitely should not?
• 1:06:23
  Forget, I don't know where the saying is, like because I lived
• 1:06:27
  in so many countries that I don't know the sayings, but
• 1:06:29
  there's a saying called the fish stinks from the head.
• 1:06:32
  And I think it's a Czech saying. But basically it means that if I
• 1:06:35
  don't lead it at the top of the organization, it won't be the
• 1:06:38
  culture and a lot of people will be like, right, it's AHR
• 1:06:42
  function. HR has to make diversity work,
• 1:06:45
  but it doesn't if like it's my telling, I want to make sure the
• 1:06:49
  diversity works. And yes, HR is there to enable
• 1:06:51
  that conversation, but I have to lead it.
• 1:06:55
  And I think often this is what founders get wrong.
• 1:06:57
  They default this as AHR function, but this is a founder
• 1:07:02
  thing. If you look around your company
• 1:07:04
  today and you don't see diversity, there probably isn't
• 1:07:07
  diversity and recognize that there's a problem and then lead
• 1:07:11
  from the front line by just talking about just saying it.
• 1:07:14
  Like I look around the room, this seems not a very diverse
• 1:07:18
  room. Should we talk about that?
• 1:07:21
  That's a great starter. Sounds sounds great.
• 1:07:26
  If there was, looking back, something you would do different
• 1:07:29
  from how you've done it, what would that be and why?
• 1:07:33
  Like I would love to say that I'd like to be more deliberate
• 1:07:37
  early on, but I also know that when you fight for survival,
• 1:07:40
  it's the last thing you think about.
• 1:07:42
  But I would love to have had a strategy and I would have loved
• 1:07:46
  to have access to AI at the time because then, you know, you can
• 1:07:49
  very quickly build out like a policy or a directive towards
• 1:07:54
  it. Whereas back in the day you just
• 1:07:56
  have to Google your way to like. It was never as good as AI.
• 1:08:00
  It's much weaker. It's much quicker to kind of
• 1:08:03
  give it shape in because you can ask AI saying, hey, this is my
• 1:08:07
  situation. We've got 20 employees at this
• 1:08:09
  company. We're all white male.
• 1:08:10
  How do I diversify it? And AI starts to give you
• 1:08:12
  suggestions. And we were never that
• 1:08:14
  strategic, but it just wasn't available.
• 1:08:19
  But you know, you, you can't start with diversity soon enough
• 1:08:22
  because if you build that in too late in the journey, it will
• 1:08:25
  never feel authentic. Because when you basically grow
• 1:08:29
  a company with all the same people who hire the same people
• 1:08:32
  because they're all hiring their friends and then the
• 1:08:35
  homogenization sets in, you'll never be able to fix it.
• 1:08:38
  Or you can, but it's going to be a really heavy lift and it will
• 1:08:41
  feel unnatural. So I'd say start from day one,
• 1:08:45
  thinking about it at least and and dealing with your own
• 1:08:48
  unconscious biases. Thank you, Margarelli.
• 1:08:52
  Closing question for you, How can allies contribute to a more
• 1:08:58
  inclusive tech ecosystem? I would say communication is
• 1:09:03
  key. Ask the question.
• 1:09:06
  Start by asking the question, how can I help?
• 1:09:09
  How can I make my meeting or my team a better place for all of
• 1:09:16
  us? Attend those ERG groups
• 1:09:20
  meetings, even if you're not part of them, out of curiosity,
• 1:09:26
  but also maybe you can contribute by giving suggestion,
• 1:09:30
  your opinion or even maybe you can grow yourself, your skill
• 1:09:35
  set, your behaviour. I think assessing yourself is
• 1:09:40
  also important. How do you behave, how do you
• 1:09:42
  perform when you are leading a meeting, attending a meeting or
• 1:09:48
  when you're just communicating with others?
• 1:09:50
  And it's the self reflection part that is important.
• 1:09:53
  And I think if we make it intentional by saying how am I
• 1:09:56
  performing as an ally? If everyone takes a minute to
• 1:09:59
  self reflect, they could definitely contribute to making
• 1:10:05
  the culture a bit more inclusive.
• 1:10:08
  It's as I said before, it's everyone's role.
• 1:10:11
  It's everyone's responsibility to make a company an inclusive
• 1:10:15
  space. And I think the word ally, it's
• 1:10:20
  not a noun, it's a verb. And that's a really important
• 1:10:23
  distinction because you can't say, yes, I'm open minded,
• 1:10:26
  everything is great. No, no, it's a doing you, what
• 1:10:29
  are you doing to lean into that conversation?
• 1:10:32
  You know, should I as a man join women at Muse?
• 1:10:36
  Yes, absolutely. You should be part of that erg
• 1:10:38
  since you can overhear what they're talking.
• 1:10:40
  What are the challenges? Allyship is a doing word.
• 1:10:44
  It's not a sitting back and saying yes, I am very accepting
• 1:10:46
  of all the things you're doing. Like no, no, what are you doing
• 1:10:49
  to change it? OK, SO11 challenge to that
• 1:10:53
  because I I love what you say. How do you do that without
• 1:11:00
  disturbing sort of the safe space that an erg is supposed to
• 1:11:05
  be? Because I think just keeping
• 1:11:10
  this to myself, one of the reasons I doubted really long
• 1:11:14
  before starting the podcast and before started starting to
• 1:11:18
  attend women's events and events about diversity was that I
• 1:11:24
  thought, well, yeah, actually I need to be there.
• 1:11:28
  But on the other hand, then I'm disturbing something and I, I, I
• 1:11:34
  don't want to be the person that sort of kills the initiative.
• 1:11:39
  But that's the difference. You're not here to mansplain the
• 1:11:42
  situation to us. You are here to ask really
• 1:11:44
  thoughtful questions and then listen and curate and and lift
• 1:11:48
  us up through your platform. Yes, you can go into the women
• 1:11:52
  at News ERG and let me just let me explain to you how we're
• 1:11:56
  going to run the show. Or there is the let me sit back
• 1:11:59
  for a couple sessions just just for my opinion and listen really
• 1:12:02
  deeply and then ask a few really good open questions.
• 1:12:05
  And I think that's the difference.
• 1:12:06
  Thank you, because that's exactly the answer I was looking
• 1:12:11
  for. Good.
• 1:12:13
  So Magalia Large, Mathias fella, thank you very much for an
• 1:12:17
  amazing interview. Really enjoyed this.
• 1:12:21
  If people want to learn more about you and about Muse, where
• 1:12:25
  would you like to send them? LinkedIn is the place for us.
• 1:12:28
  Cool. And probably there's muse.com.
• 1:12:32
  Like honestly once you follow us you will regret it.
• 1:12:34
  We are everywhere. OK, cool.
• 1:12:39
  And we'll include those links in the show notes.
• 1:12:42
  Again, thank you very much for the interview and listeners.
• 1:12:46
  Thank you very much for listening and until the next
• 1:12:49
  episode, keep being awesome. Well, that's it for episode 125
• 1:12:58
  of Women this voting tech with Mabili Elash and Matais Vela,
• 1:13:02
  titled How Muse Builds Inclusive Cultures in hospitality.
• 1:13:07
  Magali, Matthais. And I hope that you found our
• 1:13:10
  conversation as inclusive and transformative as we intended it
• 1:13:14
  to be. And if you have any questions
• 1:13:16
  for Magali or Matthais, please share them in the comments on
• 1:13:20
  Spotify, Apple, or YouTube. I'll make sure you'll receive an
• 1:13:24
  answer. When you want to connect with
• 1:13:26
  Magali and Matthais or learn more about Muse, please check
• 1:13:30
  out the links in the show notes. As usual, you can find the show
• 1:13:34
  notes at Women Disrupting Tech dot Blog.
• 1:13:36
  Find a link in the caption on the blog.
• 1:13:39
  You can also find the show notes for all 124 other episodes,
• 1:13:45
  including guest BIOS. If you've enjoyed listening to
• 1:13:48
  this episode, please consider leaving a rating or a review on
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  Apple or Spotify. Leaving a rating or a review
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  helps new listeners find the podcast and supports my guest by
• 1:13:59
  giving them a bigger platform. If you're a regular listener and
• 1:14:03
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• 1:14:07
  Disrupting Tech on Spotify, Apple, Amazon or YouTube.
• 1:14:12
  Following is a simple 0 cost way to support Magali, Matthez and
• 1:14:16
  my other guests in closing the funding gap by the end of 2032.
• 1:14:22
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• 1:14:26
  on social media. You can find us everywhere as at
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• 1:14:50
  Finally, if you want to connect with me directly, please reach
• 1:14:54
  out via e-mail. Dear Kyon at Women Disrupting
• 1:14:57
  Tech dot blog or connect with me on LinkedIn.
• 1:15:00
  On LinkedIn, simply search for my name, dear Keonhukus, and
• 1:15:04
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• 1:15:06
  wonderful day. I hope to see you in the next
• 1:15:09
  episode, and until then, as always, keep being awesome.