Latest / Not Your Grandma’s Cancer Show / Where did my libido go? We answer your questions about sex after cancer

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Where did my libido go? We answer your questions about sex after cancer · Not Your Grandma’s Cancer Show

0:00
Speaker0: From Shine Cancer Support, this is Not
0:04
Speaker0: Your Grandma's Cancer Show.
0:05
Speaker1: This is Not Your Grandma's Cancer
0:08
Speaker1: Show. Hi, I'm Tayton Druck, and today we're
0:12
Speaker1: diving into Shine's secret sex questions.
0:17
Speaker1: I sent out a link to the Shine community welcoming
0:21
Speaker1: any sex questions that you may have after a cancer
0:24
Speaker1: diagnosis, and I'm joined today by Zoe.
0:28
Speaker1: She is a psychosexual and relationship therapist
0:32
Speaker1: And a member of Shine as well, which is lovely.
0:35
Speaker1: And we're gonna get into these questions because I personally
0:40
Speaker1: have found some general information about sex quite
0:45
Speaker1: hard. Like, I felt like a little bit alienated by it.
0:48
Speaker1: And general information can be amazing,
0:51
Speaker1: but one of the things the people from Shine sent in anonymously
0:56
Speaker1: perfectly put how I felt. And I'm
0:59
Speaker1: wondering how you might feel about this too, that young people—
1:01
Speaker0: Yeah.
1:03
Speaker1: I think that people are underrepresented with regard to sex
1:08
Speaker1: and cancer, and when there is information about
1:12
Speaker1: it, it's often for straight people in
1:16
Speaker1: monogamous relationships. It doesn't necessarily
1:20
Speaker1: touch on things like BDSM, group sex,
1:24
Speaker1: polyamory, body image, gender.
1:28
Speaker1: And that really summed up how I was feeling about
1:32
Speaker1: sometimes this, like, very generic information that we
1:35
Speaker1: get. which is why we have Zoe here. So let's get
1:39
Speaker1: to it. This is not your grandma's cancer show.
1:43
Speaker0: Not your grandma's cancer show.
1:46
Speaker1: Zoe, welcome to the podcast.
1:49
Speaker0: Hi, Tatum. It's so great to
1:50
Speaker0: be here.
1:51
Speaker1: So Zoe, I'd love to ask you, when you're addressing groups,
1:54
Speaker1: can you tell me a little bit how you think through that tension between sort
1:58
Speaker1: of general, the widest information, and something
2:02
Speaker1: that's more specific, either to age or gender
2:06
Speaker1: or orientation?
2:08
Speaker0: I think the
2:10
Speaker0: main issue is that there just isn't enough information out there as it is for
2:13
Speaker0: any sort of age group, you know, even if you were going to go with
2:17
Speaker0: like heterosexual, you know, something like really
2:20
Speaker0: generalized. So I think it does make it really difficult, like where does everybody else
2:25
Speaker0: go and where do they get that information from? I think,
2:28
Speaker0: you know, cancer and sex is going to be very different if you are younger
2:32
Speaker0: compared to being older, not meaning that if you're older
2:36
Speaker0: it's easier, but it's a completely like different life stage. It's going to be completely
2:40
Speaker0: different response to what's happening. So actually,
2:43
Speaker0: you need tailored information, and you need support that is really specific
2:48
Speaker0: to your sort of age group, for example.
2:50
Speaker1: Yeah, I think the first
2:51
Speaker1: thing I ever went to about sex and cancer,
2:55
Speaker1: I just felt like, oh my God, I don't
2:59
Speaker1: want to hold my partner's hand and cuddle.
3:02
Speaker1: I love a cuddle, but aren't we talking about sex?
3:07
Speaker1: From having been the vibrant, active person
3:12
Speaker1: in that part of my life, it was almost like I
3:16
Speaker1: didn't have an entry into it because it
3:19
Speaker1: just didn't feel like it was speaking to me.
3:22
Speaker0: I completely
3:23
Speaker0: hear that, Tatum, and I think that's something that I felt myself going through my
3:26
Speaker0: own cancer diagnosis, that a lot of what was being said
3:30
Speaker0: wasn't really speaking to me at my age as a, you know,
3:33
Speaker0: 30-year-old that was at their, like, sexual peak, having a great
3:37
Speaker0: time, you know, and all of a sudden cancer's and it's gonna change everything.
3:41
Speaker0: And I didn't feel like anything really was
3:44
Speaker0: aimed at that and could understand what I was about to go through.
3:48
Speaker1: You talk about that kind of sexual peak, it just made me think that,
3:52
Speaker1: yeah, I'd always read, even when I was 19,
3:56
Speaker1: that 37 is a woman's sexual peak and 17
4:00
Speaker1: is a man's. I have no idea if it's true.
4:04
Speaker1: Um, but then I felt sort of muted before
4:08
Speaker1: I got there and really cheated out
4:11
Speaker1: of this prime real estate that I had
4:14
Speaker1: built up in my mind. I'm imagining what sex real estate
4:18
Speaker1: looks like. And you're talking about being 30 when
4:22
Speaker1: you were diagnosed. Can you tell me a little bit more about what was going
4:25
Speaker1: on in your life when you got sick?
4:27
Speaker0: I was 35,
4:28
Speaker0: and I was doing really well at work in a really, like, quite a high
4:32
Speaker0: stressful job, but was doing really well. And I was, I was
4:36
Speaker0: dating, and I was planning to do a bit more
4:40
Speaker0: traveling, and everything was sort of like just going along but going well.
4:44
Speaker0: And all of a sudden, I then got this cancer diagnosis,
4:47
Speaker0: which completely was just a shock. And as most
4:51
Speaker0: people no doubt listening to this will understand how difficult it
4:54
Speaker0: is to hear those words that you've got cancer. And it just basically felt
4:59
Speaker0: like my whole life was turned upside down. But I really remember
5:03
Speaker0: feeling like what you're describing, that I wasn't ready to, like,
5:06
Speaker0: give up my sexuality because cancer had come along.
5:10
Speaker0: And I was finding it really difficult because I was, I was going to,
5:14
Speaker0: like, different talks, you know, getting information while
5:18
Speaker0: I was being diagnosed. And there was nothing really about
5:22
Speaker0: sexuality, relationships, intimacy,
5:26
Speaker0: or how I might manage that. But what I was being told was that
5:30
Speaker0: I'm probably going to go into this medical menopause And it's going to be really
5:33
Speaker0: awful, and I'm probably not going to want to have sex. And that was it.
5:37
Speaker1: Right. What I'm hearing from that is that it's almost like
5:42
Speaker1: a bit of an afterthought, a bit like, well, what can you expect? And that
5:46
Speaker1: really came through with the, with the questions that we received
5:50
Speaker1: as well. And so kind of hearing you experience that,
5:55
Speaker1: where did your brain like begin to go when you're like,
5:58
Speaker1: oh, what does that mean?
6:00
Speaker0: You know, of course, when you're diagnosed with
6:03
Speaker0: cancer, it's really important that you do everything that you need to do to feel—
6:06
Speaker0: to get better. But, you know, as a young person,
6:09
Speaker0: there's also so much in your life that's really important as a young person.
6:13
Speaker0: And that might be like a relationship or dating, it might be having sex,
6:18
Speaker0: it might be having all different kinds of sex. And it, you know, that might
6:21
Speaker0: be like a really big part of your identity as a person.
6:23
Speaker1: Yes.
6:25
Speaker0: Um, and I, and I think for me, it, it kind of felt like
6:29
Speaker0: these things were an afterthought. Like, the, the main thing here was to
6:32
Speaker0: survive. And of course it is. Of course it is to survive.
6:35
Speaker0: But it shouldn't be at the cost of all these other things that
6:39
Speaker0: actually, you know, is what life is about and that are really important
6:44
Speaker0: to a lot of young people. Someone being diagnosed with cancer
6:47
Speaker0: at an older age who's maybe had their children and has
6:51
Speaker0: been married for some time, you know, I'm not saying they're not going to go
6:54
Speaker0: through an awful time. Of course they are. But if you're a young person at
6:57
Speaker0: the beginning of that journey, Where you're like looking to meet someone, or you're,
7:00
Speaker0: you're in the dating pool, or you're in a new relationship, or even just
7:04
Speaker0: in a relationship, and that is all still to come. This is going to severely
7:08
Speaker0: impact like not only your sex life, but also like your relationship
7:12
Speaker0: and your intimacy and how you feel with each other and how you feel about
7:15
Speaker0: yourself.
7:15
Speaker1: Mm-hmm.
7:16
Speaker0: You know, what really drove me into getting
7:18
Speaker0: into sort of like sex therapy and cancer was the fact that this wasn't
7:23
Speaker0: being spoken about anywhere. And I remember feeling really panicked that I
7:27
Speaker0: was going to lose my sex drive, or my sex drive was going, because of
7:31
Speaker0: course your body's in survival, your body's in like this fight mode. Sex isn't what
7:34
Speaker0: you're thinking about, right? But you know, at one point it's going to come back,
7:38
Speaker0: or you'd like it to come back. And I just really— it really became aware
7:42
Speaker0: to me that no one was talking about this with me. There wasn't much information
7:45
Speaker0: on it anywhere. And actually, it, you know, it worried me.
7:49
Speaker0: And I thought, hang on, I've I've got, like, all these years of qualifications,
7:52
Speaker0: and I've trained to study this. I know how to
7:56
Speaker0: re-engage my sex drive and my desire if I want to. What must everybody
8:00
Speaker0: else be feeling right now if I'm feeling like this?
8:04
Speaker1: And so since getting your diagnosis,
8:08
Speaker1: how has that been to kind of have your own
8:12
Speaker1: experience and, like, draw on the work that
8:15
Speaker1: you've been doing? And like you said, knowing things in theory and
8:20
Speaker1: knowing there are some things that you can do, but then putting
8:23
Speaker1: them into action, how has that been?
8:26
Speaker0: It's been really difficult
8:27
Speaker0: because initially, you know, I, I was really worried, like, where is my,
8:31
Speaker0: where is my sex drive? Where is my libido? Like, I didn't have any interest
8:35
Speaker0: at all. And I think when you don't have any interest, you're then
8:39
Speaker0: not inclined to try and engage it because you
8:43
Speaker0: don't have the interest, right? So I was really worried to start with,
8:46
Speaker0: and then I I started to put into action some of the
8:50
Speaker0: things that I tell my own clients to do, you know, just like basically reconnecting
8:54
Speaker0: with my body and my body needing time to feel safe
8:58
Speaker0: that it wasn't at, you know, you go through all this prodding and cutting
9:02
Speaker0: and poking and treatments and all these things that we all go
9:05
Speaker0: through when we've had cancer. My body didn't feel safe and it
9:08
Speaker0: needed to feel safe. And I think, you know, with time it did change
9:12
Speaker0: and that was really eye-opening for me. But I had
9:17
Speaker0: to also like use use the stuff that I tell everyone else to do.
9:20
Speaker0: It was a difficult time. It was a difficult time. But I think
9:25
Speaker0: by also going through it has really helped me work with people that
9:29
Speaker0: have experienced cancer, because it's not until I've gone through something like
9:33
Speaker0: this that I'm like, I don't feel like I could have truly understood unless
9:37
Speaker0: you've gone through something like this.
9:39
Speaker1: Yeah.
9:39
Speaker0: And often as a therapist,
9:41
Speaker0: we are often empathizing and putting ourselves in people's shoes
9:45
Speaker0: because that's part of our role, and we can effectively do a lot of work
9:48
Speaker0: with people that way. But I, I don't know, there's something about
9:51
Speaker0: going through cancer for me that is like, I don't feel I would have been
9:55
Speaker0: as effective. I think you need to go through it to know.
9:57
Speaker1: Yeah,
9:58
Speaker1: it is that deep knowing, not the theoretical knowing.
10:03
Speaker1: And it can seem somewhat straightforward,
10:07
Speaker1: just taking that example of libido, like,
10:10
Speaker1: oh, so you want to increase your libido? Do this, this, and this. And it's
10:14
Speaker1: like, yeah, but I'm not interested. So how do I do that,
10:17
Speaker1: that, and that? And if I'm not interested and I'm forcing myself to
10:21
Speaker1: do it, that feels weird. That feels uncomfortable. And then that feels scary. And actually,
10:25
Speaker1: my body doesn't need any more scary stuff. And I'm already maybe
10:29
Speaker1: feeling broken. Like, I don't want to think about
10:32
Speaker1: it because it makes me feel more broken in this different place. And so
10:37
Speaker1: it isn't just that there is X, Y, and Z that you can do.
10:40
Speaker0: Yeah.
10:41
Speaker1: But how do you get To the mental— do
10:44
Speaker1: the mental cartwheels sometimes to be able
10:48
Speaker1: to access that and incorporate it.
10:51
Speaker0: Exactly.
10:52
Speaker0: It's not straightforward at all. There are so many, like, different hurdles
10:56
Speaker0: you've got to get through. It's not just physical, it's not just emotional, it's psychological.
11:00
Speaker0: There is, there is so much going on at a time like that that,
11:05
Speaker0: yeah, it's not a case of do this and this will happen,
11:08
Speaker0: right? It's It's much different to that.
11:11
Speaker1: Is there a
11:12
Speaker1: top question? The thing that when people find out what you do,
11:16
Speaker1: they take you into a corner and they're like, I have to ask. What is,
11:19
Speaker1: like, the number one thing that you're hearing from people?
11:24
Speaker0: I think the main thing is, like, sex drive. The main
11:27
Speaker0: thing is people asking about sex drive and, you know, is it normal
11:31
Speaker0: that I don't have much of a sex drive after going through all
11:35
Speaker0: of this? Or, um, is it normal that my partner's sex
11:39
Speaker0: drive is higher than my sex drive? A lot around,
11:43
Speaker0: around sex drive. And I think, I think the media portrays this,
11:46
Speaker0: and we have this sort of like culture where we think everybody's having like loads
11:50
Speaker0: of sex and having a really, really great time. And if
11:54
Speaker0: we're not doing that, then we're sort of like the odd ones out, or there's
11:57
Speaker0: something wrong with us, or, you know, we're the only person in the world not
12:01
Speaker0: doing it.
12:01
Speaker1: Yeah.
12:02
Speaker0: And actually, you know, there's a lot of people
12:05
Speaker0: that are not having loads and loads of sex all the time,
12:08
Speaker0: you know, with or without cancer. So I think it's just reassuring
12:12
Speaker0: people that you're not necessarily defined by your
12:16
Speaker0: sex life, but also, you know, we recognize it's really important. It's really
12:20
Speaker0: important to want to have a sex life and for it to be pleasurable and
12:24
Speaker0: for it to be how you want it to be.
12:27
Speaker1: Mm-hmm. So reigniting
12:29
Speaker1: that spark when you're not feeling it,
12:32
Speaker1: and there's, like you said, so many hurdles to that.
12:36
Speaker1: So we're definitely going to get into that with some of the questions.
12:40
Speaker1: What is the thing that you feel that people want to ask,
12:44
Speaker1: um, but you don't get the questions a lot, but you
12:47
Speaker1: have a feeling there's probably more behind that door
12:51
Speaker1: of questions that people find really challenging to
12:54
Speaker1: reach out about?
12:56
Speaker0: There's often, you know, people that are into certain kinks
12:59
Speaker0: that they might feel like, you know, BDSM or other things that they might
13:03
Speaker0: want to ask about but feel like it comes with shame or stigma that they
13:06
Speaker0: can't talk about these things. And it's, you know, completely normal thing
13:10
Speaker0: to engage in if that's something you enjoy. Um, I think
13:14
Speaker0: that's something that comes up. And, and also, you know, something that I'm seeing a
13:17
Speaker0: lot more in my practice is definitely like ethical non-monogamy and open relationships
13:21
Speaker0: and people having more sexual partners and being in more multiple relationships
13:26
Speaker0: and finding ways for that to work and actually really enjoying having
13:29
Speaker0: that sort of like sexual freedom and understanding in
13:33
Speaker0: their relationships or their partnerships. And that is definitely something that is coming up
13:37
Speaker0: a lot more. And I think people often say
13:41
Speaker0: that when they're looking, even looking for a therapist, and I sort of do my
13:44
Speaker0: intros, like, you know, we just want to make sure like we're not going to
13:47
Speaker0: be judged for choosing to have this sort of lifestyle.
13:50
Speaker1: Yeah. I mean, that's the thing about being diagnosed.
13:54
Speaker1: We often talk on this podcast about these, like, really foundational
13:59
Speaker1: sort of tectonic plates of our lives and our relationships shifting.
14:04
Speaker1: And actually, often we're looking through a new lens.
14:08
Speaker1: And so, for some people, it can be, actually, do I
14:12
Speaker1: want to stay with this partner? Like, is this— is this my person?
14:15
Speaker0: Mm-hmm.
14:16
Speaker1: Other people get diagnosed, and their partner isn't
14:20
Speaker1: great, and they break up. And then they're single, maybe for the first time
14:24
Speaker1: in a long time. And it's like, oh, wow, like, now I'm single
14:28
Speaker1: with a cancer diagnosis. How do I manage
14:32
Speaker1: this landscape? And so you've got these really big
14:36
Speaker1: shifts of, okay, well, what am I
14:40
Speaker1: doing with my life? What do I want? And of course, that's going to spill
14:44
Speaker1: over then into, well, what—
14:45
Speaker0: Yeah.
14:46
Speaker1: What kind of sex do I want?
14:47
Speaker1: What kind of relationship do I want? And so it
14:50
Speaker1: being a time where people are like, do I want a more open,
14:55
Speaker1: you know, do we want to try being poly, do we want to,
14:59
Speaker1: you know, explore, is often happening at the exact same
15:02
Speaker1: time that all these other things are. Um, so that's
15:06
Speaker1: really interesting to hear.
15:08
Speaker0: Yeah.
15:09
Speaker1: How do you find
15:09
Speaker1: people are navigating That shift?
15:14
Speaker0: I think it's a real time of, like, reevaluation that people go through after
15:19
Speaker0: a cancer diagnosis, during a cancer diagnosis. I know myself,
15:22
Speaker0: I went through a huge, like, reevaluation of everything in my
15:26
Speaker0: life, and I feel like it just, it just comes with the territory of
15:30
Speaker0: it. And some of that is really positive. What you're saying about,
15:33
Speaker0: like, what do we actually want from life? Like, what do I want from life?
15:37
Speaker0: What was I maybe putting up with that I'm not willing to put up with
15:40
Speaker0: anymore? What was I lacking that actually I really want in my life
15:44
Speaker0: and I don't have? Uh, what would I like to try that I've always maybe
15:48
Speaker0: been too scared or had too much shame to try sexually that I would
15:52
Speaker0: like to try? You know, suddenly there's this— for me especially,
15:56
Speaker0: it was like, life's too short, you know? Like, I knew that, but I really
15:58
Speaker0: know it now, and I need to go out and enjoy myself. And I think,
16:02
Speaker0: you know, I've known people that have come out of like relationships, marriages with children,
16:07
Speaker0: and have realized that actually their sexuality has changed and You
16:11
Speaker0: know, or it was always what it was, but now they feel
16:15
Speaker0: like they can actually do something about it, or they want to do something about
16:17
Speaker0: it. You know, I've had friends that have, um, you know, gone into same-sex
16:21
Speaker0: relationships, um, following a cancer diagnosis.
16:25
Speaker0: Um, I know other people who have really, like, just experimented
16:29
Speaker0: and just thought, you know what, like, I'm just gonna get out there and just
16:32
Speaker0: try all the things that I never tried before and enjoy all the things I'm
16:36
Speaker0: doing. You know, I know other people that are still really struggling, and that,
16:39
Speaker0: that, that feels like so far away for them. And actually just trying
16:42
Speaker0: to navigate the basics of getting back into like a sexual
16:46
Speaker0: relationship is actually their goal and is really important.
16:51
Speaker1: It's quite nice to see some of the spectrum of
16:54
Speaker1: stories, isn't it, and experiences. I remember listening
16:58
Speaker1: to a podcast called Dying for Sex.
17:01
Speaker1: And it was about a woman in her 30s who realized
17:05
Speaker1: that she actually didn't want to be in this relationship. What she
17:09
Speaker1: wanted was a fuck ton of sex. And she
17:13
Speaker1: went out and had it. And that's not often
17:17
Speaker1: a story that we're told. Again, kind of thinking about,
17:22
Speaker1: you know, the, well, cradle each other,
17:25
Speaker1: caress, and look into each other's eyes. You're like, oh!
17:29
Speaker1: Like, no. That's lovely and amazing and valuable,
17:33
Speaker1: absolutely. But some people are
17:37
Speaker1: gonna wanna feel...
17:37
Speaker0: Yeah.
17:37
Speaker1: a bit more adventurous or want to do things.
17:41
Speaker1: And it's like how to get that information out
17:44
Speaker1: that everywhere on this is kind of normal
17:49
Speaker1: and also, like, has its challenges.
17:53
Speaker1: So, I think it's a really good time to get into those Shine secret
17:58
Speaker1: questions.
17:59
Speaker0: Do you? Amazing. Let's do it.
18:00
Speaker1: All right. I have
18:01
Speaker1: them here. So, I'm a 43-year-old
18:06
Speaker1: woman and I can't tell if I'm suffering with menopause,
18:10
Speaker1: perimenopause, or the side effects from chemotherapy, but it
18:14
Speaker1: hurts to have sex. And I also seem to have an allergic
18:17
Speaker1: reaction to lubricant. The GP said it could be either,
18:21
Speaker1: so it's really hard to get back to sex between treatments.
18:26
Speaker1: So this, like, sex between treatments and, like,
18:29
Speaker1: not knowing What is the side effect of what?
18:34
Speaker1: Is that something that, you know, you have experienced
18:38
Speaker1: or know something about?
18:40
Speaker0: Yeah, I mean, I think it's really
18:42
Speaker0: difficult not knowing what is going on there, but some
18:46
Speaker0: things that might be helpful— I mean, I would always recommend
18:51
Speaker0: a water-based lube, and you can get lubricants that, you know,
18:54
Speaker0: if someone's having a reaction to lubricants, there's some that are completely
18:58
Speaker0: plant-based and free of all chemicals and things. So it's really important
19:02
Speaker0: important to pick firstly like a really good lubricant.
19:06
Speaker0: Um, one that I would recommend is, uh, the water-based lubricant
19:11
Speaker0: by Yes Yes Yes because it's, it's got absolutely— I mean, I'm not, I'm not,
19:14
Speaker0: um, affiliated with them, I don't get paid to say this, it's just genuinely one
19:17
Speaker0: that I really like using and always recommend.
19:21
Speaker0: Um, and it's got no, no bad anything in it, so that
19:24
Speaker0: might be something really good to start with. I think thinking
19:28
Speaker0: about like perimenopause, or if it is chemotherapy side effects,
19:32
Speaker0: you know, it's going to be a really sort of difficult time because your
19:36
Speaker0: body's going to be going through a lot. So I think one, it's just really
19:39
Speaker0: important to just be really kind to yourself. It's knowing that, like, you're going through
19:42
Speaker0: a lot, your body's going through a lot. It might not be functioning how it
19:46
Speaker0: was right now. It doesn't mean it won't again in the future, but it's just
19:49
Speaker0: giving that sort of time and space and compassion. But something else that
19:54
Speaker0: can also help with painful sex So vagina moisturizers can be really
19:58
Speaker0: helpful, especially if things feel quite dry and tight.
20:01
Speaker0: Again, Yes Yes Yes do a really great vaginal moisturizer that I often
20:06
Speaker0: recommend to people, and I've actually used myself, and it's really, really great.
20:11
Speaker0: Another thing that I can suggest for women that usually have sexual pain,
20:15
Speaker0: sometimes dilating can be really helpful, and that is just basically to
20:19
Speaker0: help the muscles and help build your confidence.
20:24
Speaker0: So, you know, you can get a really small dilator and lots of lube,
20:26
Speaker0: and just, you know, use it, insert it, just to help build your confidence and
20:30
Speaker0: getting used to like, what does my vagina feel like? What does
20:34
Speaker0: my vulva feel like? You know, where is there pain? Where isn't there pain?
20:37
Speaker0: It's kind of getting to know your current normal at that time,
20:41
Speaker0: and what positions might work well, or what areas hurt more than others.
20:44
Speaker0: So I think it is about just like getting to know and learning your body,
20:47
Speaker0: learning about your body.
20:49
Speaker1: There was something that you said about safety
20:52
Speaker1: as well at the beginning. We often think of it in terms of stress,
20:56
Speaker1: Right? We know that when we're really stressed out, some people
21:00
Speaker1: can respond to that by their— you know, like any kind of stress,
21:03
Speaker1: you know, some people will drink more, some people will eat
21:07
Speaker1: more, some people will forget to eat, right? Like, we all have different responses.
21:11
Speaker1: So it's definitely not like a one-size-fits-all.
21:15
Speaker1: But a lot of people don't think about sex when they're really stressed out
21:18
Speaker1: because the body is trying to prioritize
21:22
Speaker1: the things that are really important.
21:24
Speaker0: 100%.
21:25
Speaker1: We often know that when we're stressed,
21:27
Speaker1: we often get a dry mouth, But we don't think that when we're stressed,
21:30
Speaker1: we're going to get dry down there, right?
21:33
Speaker0: Yeah.
21:34
Speaker1: And our body is trying to focus on the big thing
21:38
Speaker1: and less nonessential functions. So I'm wondering, as part
21:43
Speaker1: of that, like, if there's anything that's, like, deeply relaxing and
21:47
Speaker1: kind of thinking about, like, in the nicest possible way—
21:50
Speaker1: I used to be a massage therapist, so this pops into my mind— but,
21:54
Speaker1: like, what makes you drool? 'Cause that's like the opposite, right?
21:57
Speaker1: Really good night's sleep often eludes us after cancer.
22:01
Speaker1: But actually, like, is there a way to like get a little bit more rest,
22:06
Speaker1: you know, that you find like, oh my God, I'm— yes,
22:09
Speaker1: like I'm salivating at the idea of that level of relaxation?
22:13
Speaker1: It's a really good sign that your nervous
22:17
Speaker1: system responsible for rest is turning back
22:20
Speaker1: on. What can we do to support that spark?
22:25
Speaker0: It's so important that we relax our nervous systems.
22:29
Speaker0: And you're right, the body is in survival.
22:31
Speaker0: It's in protecting the body in every way it needs to.
22:34
Speaker0: It's not thinking about all these other things like libido and sex drive.
22:38
Speaker0: These are often the first things to go out of the window when we're really
22:41
Speaker0: stressed out or going through a lot. So I think it is really important to
22:45
Speaker0: think about, um, relaxation and calming the nervous system as well.
22:48
Speaker0: This can be things like deep, deep breathing, It can be yoga
22:53
Speaker0: or stretching. It might be just like burning a nice
22:57
Speaker0: candle that you really love the smell of and it really makes you feel relaxed.
23:01
Speaker0: Anything to sort of really get the body into some kind
23:05
Speaker0: of like, yeah, not in like a nervous alert state,
23:09
Speaker0: just, just relax. That can definitely help with pain. And we,
23:13
Speaker0: you know, we know that actually like mindfulness is really helpful
23:16
Speaker0: when it comes to one, increasing desire,
23:19
Speaker0: but two, like, the more relaxed we are, the better sex. So again, you know,
23:23
Speaker0: mindfulness, any type, kind of mindfulness, can be really helpful.
23:27
Speaker1: I think sometimes, you know, we think about mindfulness and we're
23:30
Speaker1: like, oh yeah, that, I mean, that would be nice, but like, we're not necessarily
23:33
Speaker1: thinking how it can like functionally, like literally,
23:38
Speaker1: you know, make things more comfortable.
23:41
Speaker1: Um, yeah, there. So yeah.
23:45
Speaker0: If that isn't happening, you know, just use loads of lube. Like, don't be
23:48
Speaker0: shy with lube. Like, I say to people, like, the wetter the better.
23:52
Speaker0: Just use as much as possible. Keep, keep topping it up, keep applying it.
23:56
Speaker0: It, you know, it's completely safe and fine to use as much lube as possible.
24:00
Speaker1: Yeah, and I also heard it's really fun to combine
24:03
Speaker1: them, different oil-based and water-based,
24:08
Speaker1: that, you know, make a whole slip and slide. Like,
24:10
Speaker1: it's Yeah. You know, just like go to town. The other thing
24:15
Speaker1: that you said that I really enjoyed was becoming
24:19
Speaker1: curious about what works for you now,
24:23
Speaker1: because of all the different hormonal,
24:27
Speaker1: chemical changes, stress changes,
24:31
Speaker1: like you said, your body being prodded in so many different ways,
24:35
Speaker1: that actually what you need can be really different
24:38
Speaker1: to what it was before, in both ways. So I've heard of some women actually
24:43
Speaker1: needing more stimulation than they used to have before,
24:47
Speaker1: because actually that's where they are hormonally.
24:51
Speaker1: And so thinking about it as a discovery process—
24:55
Speaker0: Yes.
24:56
Speaker1: —is quite a nice way in.
24:58
Speaker0: Yes,
24:59
Speaker0: exactly. It's like, imagine having a blank canvas that you're
25:03
Speaker0: about to do a painting on, you know, and you don't know what this painting
25:05
Speaker0: is going to look like or what the outcome is going to be, but you're
25:09
Speaker0: going to explore with all these different colors of paints. It's exactly like that,
25:12
Speaker0: you know, It is literally like rediscovering your body and
25:15
Speaker0: looking and seeing like what feels pleasurable, what doesn't,
25:19
Speaker0: what did, what didn't. Like, yeah, does something need to be more
25:23
Speaker0: firm a touch now? Does it need to be lighter touch? Like, yeah, this self-discovery
25:28
Speaker0: of getting to explore yourself all over again.
25:31
Speaker1: There was
25:32
Speaker1: a question that we had from someone who enjoyed
25:36
Speaker1: bondage. And But she had a very specific question
25:40
Speaker1: that absolutely a medical professional could give a more,
25:44
Speaker1: you know, full answer to, which was like,
25:48
Speaker1: when you have your lymph nodes removed,
25:51
Speaker1: is it going to affect it if I am
25:55
Speaker1: then engaging with the bondage that I used to on that
25:59
Speaker1: arm?
25:59
Speaker0: Mm-hmm.
26:00
Speaker1: How much pressure and what should I watch
26:03
Speaker1: out for? And thinking about that question
26:07
Speaker1: made me think about, like, what does it take to
26:12
Speaker1: find someone to ask that question
26:15
Speaker1: to?
26:15
Speaker0: Yeah.
26:17
Speaker1: And also,
26:19
Speaker1: do you disclose? Or are there other ways
26:23
Speaker1: of saying, oh, I have another activity
26:27
Speaker1: where I wear quite tight outfits?
26:31
Speaker1: I have a cardigan, it's got very tight cuff. Is that okay to wear?
26:35
Speaker1: You know, like, are there workarounds?
26:40
Speaker0: First, I think it's a great question, so thank you to whoever submitted that question.
26:44
Speaker0: And yeah, I definitely think that's something that, you know, someone medical needs
26:47
Speaker0: to answer. But what we could be saying is, if you don't want to disclose
26:51
Speaker0: that that's what you do, you know, you could ask questions like, what can I,
26:55
Speaker0: can't I do with this arm now that I've had my lymph nodes removed?
26:57
Speaker0: How much pressure, you know, can I have on this arm?
27:01
Speaker0: Is there anything I should be wearing if pressure was to be put on
27:05
Speaker0: my arm or if something was to feel tight? From my knowledge,
27:09
Speaker0: a lot of it is about risk of infection, so it's more thinking about
27:13
Speaker0: like, you know, if there were to be cuts or anything like that. But I
27:16
Speaker0: think it is just asking those questions of, yeah, you know, how much pressure can
27:20
Speaker0: I have on this arm? Is there anything I can or can't do with this
27:22
Speaker0: arm now?
27:22
Speaker1: Yeah.
27:23
Speaker0: that I've had lymph nodes removed? How does my
27:26
Speaker0: arm differ to my other arm that hasn't had any lymph
27:30
Speaker0: nodes removed? Even if you asked a really broad question like that to
27:34
Speaker0: a doctor or to your team, hopefully that
27:37
Speaker0: should give you the answers that you need.
27:40
Speaker1: If there was something
27:42
Speaker1: in the meantime before being able to get the answer to those questions,
27:47
Speaker1: is there a different approach to maybe
27:52
Speaker1: how she experiences that, or how, how to approach
27:57
Speaker1: it when there's something that you really love. And you, you're not sure
28:01
Speaker1: if you should be partaking in it. Where does
28:05
Speaker1: that kind of sex uncertainty, like, how does that
28:09
Speaker1: leave us feeling?
28:10
Speaker0: I mean, I don't think someone should necessarily
28:13
Speaker0: stop engaging in like BDSM or bondage if that's what they like. But maybe it's
28:16
Speaker0: thinking about like where on the body you do that instead of like using that
28:20
Speaker0: side of the body or the affected area, you know. Do you do it on
28:23
Speaker0: like legs or bum or some— somewhere else,
28:27
Speaker0: you know. I think it's important to like do something that
28:31
Speaker0: you really enjoy and that feels part of you or you feel connected to.
28:34
Speaker0: But it's just being aware of keeping yourself safe medically, physically at the
28:38
Speaker0: same time, and just thinking about other ways of engaging in the thing that you
28:42
Speaker0: really like.
28:43
Speaker1: This idea of sort of uncertainty,
28:46
Speaker1: this lack of information, And the effect of that uncertainty
28:50
Speaker1: came up with another question where it was a
28:54
Speaker1: partner, and they were told a
28:57
Speaker1: little bit of information about sex, which was,
29:01
Speaker1: do you wear a condom? Because when the partner
29:05
Speaker1: was going through treatment, that it could potentially
29:09
Speaker1: affect his sperm. And so there was a
29:13
Speaker1: nervousness. then, when using the condom, of what does
29:17
Speaker1: it mean if it splits? And how do you hold that
29:21
Speaker1: uncertainty, but you don't want your partner to feel
29:25
Speaker1: that there's been a change? And I'm just wondering, like,
29:29
Speaker1: do you work with partners? You know, where would you
29:32
Speaker1: begin in terms of not necessarily answering the
29:37
Speaker1: question, but like, just even that, oh, that's changed now.
29:41
Speaker1: What do I do with—
29:42
Speaker0: Mm-hmm.
29:42
Speaker1: The nerves around it.
29:45
Speaker0: Yeah, I work with a lot of couples, and I think in cancer,
29:49
Speaker0: uncertainty is a huge, huge part because there is so much
29:53
Speaker0: happening that, you know, you don't know what the outcome is going to be,
29:56
Speaker0: or you're not really understanding or sure of what's going on. You know, things happen
29:59
Speaker0: fast and quickly. I think it's really important to communicate and
30:03
Speaker0: just to share how you feel. And I think, you know, often we
30:07
Speaker0: don't want to hurt our partner, or we don't want to say something that is
30:11
Speaker0: going to, like, upset them or, you know, make them feel bad. But actually,
30:15
Speaker0: that leaves like big room for like, there's a space there
30:19
Speaker0: that then the other person doesn't really know what the other person's feeling, and then
30:22
Speaker0: that leads to assumption, and that often causes much more
30:26
Speaker0: damage than actually just saying, you know, this is how I'm feeling
30:30
Speaker0: right now, you know, this is— I'm not sure about this, what, you know,
30:33
Speaker0: what do you think we should do together, or, you know, what do you think
30:37
Speaker0: about, about this?
30:39
Speaker1: Yeah.
30:39
Speaker0: So I, I just think
30:43
Speaker0: I think it can be really difficult, and it can be really hard to have
30:44
Speaker0: those conversations because your partner's maybe going through so much,
30:48
Speaker0: and you're like, I don't want to make things worse, or I don't want to
30:50
Speaker0: add to what's going on. But actually, I think openness and
30:54
Speaker0: communication actually builds intimacy and brings people closer to
30:58
Speaker0: connection and can be really helpful.
31:01
Speaker1: It's possible
31:03
Speaker1: that the partner's also feeling nervous about
31:06
Speaker1: it, but maybe doesn't want to say anything because doesn't want it to be weird.
31:11
Speaker0: Absolutely.
31:11
Speaker1: And having been the one with chemo,
31:14
Speaker1: like, there is this kind of— in chemo, like,
31:17
Speaker1: this not knowing what's coming out of your pores,
31:21
Speaker1: that your partner is around, and what they're exposed to
31:25
Speaker1: is in your mind. Um, and actually,
31:29
Speaker1: what you were saying is kind of getting it out there, you know? So maybe,
31:33
Speaker1: how is it feeling for you? Have you thought about what happens if it breaks?
31:37
Speaker1: Like, you know, because it might be that that would make him feel
31:41
Speaker1: like, oh no, like there can be a guilt already, and that
31:45
Speaker1: can be exacerbated by like trying to be normal.
31:49
Speaker0: And this doesn't help like relaxation, right? We're talking about being relaxed.
31:52
Speaker0: So if you're already going in with like all this stuff
31:56
Speaker0: you're holding on to— a lot of the couples I work with, I do like
32:00
Speaker0: an assessment process where I see a couple together and then I see them both
32:03
Speaker0: separately, and then I bring them back together and they stay together after that.
32:05
Speaker0: And often what is happening is that this is exactly what's happening.
32:09
Speaker0: Both are holding on to, like, assumptions of the other.
32:12
Speaker1: Mm.
32:12
Speaker0: And they're
32:13
Speaker0: often both sat there thinking exactly the same thing, but they're not communicating
32:17
Speaker0: it, and they're not sharing it, but they're both holding on to it. And then
32:21
Speaker0: actually, when we come together and do couples work, and it all sort of comes
32:24
Speaker0: out, it's like a big relief for them. And it's like, oh, like, actually,
32:28
Speaker0: like, you're thinking what I'm thinking, and I didn't realize that, and I'm worrying about
32:32
Speaker0: that, and you're telling me I don't need to worry about that. And, and it's
32:35
Speaker0: really, you know, it's a real privilege to see that sort of like moment where
32:38
Speaker0: things start to like, you know, the communication comes in and things start to improve,
32:42
Speaker0: and the realization of like, oh, we're both sat here worrying
32:46
Speaker0: silently about something that if we'd have just communicated about, we could
32:50
Speaker0: have solved this a long time ago. Um, so yeah, I think it's so important.
32:54
Speaker1: Often that can happen in really caring relationships actually,
32:58
Speaker1: because both people are like, oh, I wanna, I wanna do right by you,
33:02
Speaker1: and I think this is the right thing, but it's causing It's—
33:05
Speaker1: there's already uncertainty because there is a real need to
33:10
Speaker1: know more information, but it's then amplified
33:14
Speaker1: by the reactions to it. And if
33:18
Speaker1: you've got 2 people not communicating, you can
33:22
Speaker1: really see how quickly that becomes a tricky,
33:26
Speaker1: tricky situation.
33:27
Speaker0: Yeah.
33:28
Speaker1: And thinking about that idea
33:30
Speaker1: of perception, There was, um, another question that
33:34
Speaker1: we had basically saying, I don't have nipples anymore,
33:39
Speaker1: I don't feel like a woman. And that perception
33:43
Speaker1: of ourselves, but then the perception that somebody
33:47
Speaker1: else might have. And if you have someone coming to you going,
33:51
Speaker1: I don't feel like a woman anymore, or I don't feel like a man anymore,
33:56
Speaker1: where do you begin to sort of work with that?
33:59
Speaker0: Yeah,
34:00
Speaker0: I think, you know, initially it's just acknowledging that that's how you feel right now
34:04
Speaker0: and that's okay. Your body's just gone through a huge trauma and,
34:08
Speaker0: you know, this isn't the body that you know. It's not the body you're used
34:12
Speaker0: to. You know, you've been with your body for however many years and then
34:15
Speaker0: you wake up one day from your operation or— and all of
34:19
Speaker0: a sudden your body's completely changed. Some of it's been amputated and it
34:23
Speaker0: looks completely different. You know, I think think it's about just,
34:26
Speaker0: again, this self-compassion of it's okay that I feel like this right now,
34:30
Speaker0: you know, it's valid, how I feel is valid. I have just been through A,
34:34
Speaker0: B, C, all of this stuff. It's been really traumatic.
34:38
Speaker0: So I think one, it's sort of like the validation that, you know,
34:41
Speaker0: it's okay that you feel this way. And, and I think too,
34:44
Speaker0: you know, it's recognizing that it is going to take time. It's going to
34:48
Speaker0: take time to get used to Your new body. It's not what
34:53
Speaker0: you know, it's not what you've been with all your life. And all of
34:56
Speaker0: a sudden you've got this new part that doesn't look how you thought it would
35:00
Speaker0: look, or doesn't look in your, you know, in our own ideas of what a
35:03
Speaker0: woman should look like or a man should look like. You know, there's all this
35:06
Speaker0: sort of like societal pressure of what we're supposed to look like,
35:11
Speaker0: and it's just really working with like patience and time
35:15
Speaker0: and kindness.
35:18
Speaker1: One of the things
35:18
Speaker1: that I found in that situation that was helpful for
35:22
Speaker1: me was thinking about other
35:26
Speaker1: people in a similar situation, because I found it— I was really
35:30
Speaker1: hard on myself.
35:32
Speaker0: Mm-hmm.
35:33
Speaker1: And I felt
35:34
Speaker1: really broken. But when I looked at
35:38
Speaker1: some other friends of mine with cancer, I didn't look at them and go,
35:42
Speaker1: you're broken. No one's gonna want you. I looked at them and was like,
35:46
Speaker1: oh, you're amazing. Like, someone would be lucky
35:49
Speaker1: to date you.
35:50
Speaker0: Yeah.
35:51
Speaker1: And that's scars
35:53
Speaker1: or nipples or no nipples. Like, that wouldn't
35:58
Speaker1: be what I would be thinking about someone else. But we're so
36:02
Speaker1: hard on ourselves.
36:04
Speaker0: Yeah.
36:05
Speaker1: And how we feel about ourselves,
36:06
Speaker1: like you said, really important, but how someone
36:10
Speaker1: else might see us sometimes can be
36:16
Speaker1: reassuring. And like, could I look at myself the way
36:20
Speaker1: my friend might look at me, you know?
36:22
Speaker0: Yeah,
36:23
Speaker0: I think it's, it's really great, Tame. It's really important to think about that
36:27
Speaker0: because I remember after mine, I was, you know,
36:31
Speaker0: really struggled with like the changes in my body. And I think My
36:35
Speaker0: way around it, I think, with how I ended up processing it was like,
36:38
Speaker0: look what my body has done for me to get me through this. This body
36:42
Speaker0: I have now, yes, it's different. Yes, it's changed, but it has got me
36:46
Speaker0: through, you know. It has, it has done
36:49
Speaker0: so much to keep me alive, to keep me well, to keep me
36:54
Speaker0: where I am now. And I think there was some, like, deep appreciation
36:58
Speaker0: that came from that that helped me. love my
37:01
Speaker0: body and look at it through that lens. I think it is really
37:06
Speaker0: important to talk to other people, especially like what Shine offers, you know, that you
37:09
Speaker0: can speak to other young people that have all been through cancer,
37:14
Speaker0: often been through, you know, of course not the same experiences, but have the
37:17
Speaker0: same sort of afterthoughts and are dealing with what we're talking about now. And actually
37:21
Speaker0: talking to other people, and, you know, someone might be like, well, I, I wouldn't
37:25
Speaker0: care if you had nipples or not. Yeah, that is the
37:30
Speaker0: last thing I'm thinking of when, like, you know, I want to be with you,
37:32
Speaker0: or I'm really into you, or want to have sex with you, you know.
37:35
Speaker0: And of course, that's something that we might carry because our bodies change.
37:38
Speaker0: But actually, you're right, you know, what other people are often
37:42
Speaker0: thinking about, and, you know, that it's not— it's not
37:46
Speaker0: these things that we are so concerned and worried about.
37:49
Speaker1: It's holding
37:50
Speaker1: space for that, as well as what you were saying,
37:53
Speaker1: like, just honoring, like, absolutely this is how you're feeling.
37:57
Speaker1: I remember sometimes, like, the story rather than the specifics.
38:01
Speaker1: So do I remember the specific word? No. But the story
38:05
Speaker1: around it was that in Sanskrit, there is an expression which is,
38:09
Speaker1: I hear what you're feeling right now, and I acknowledge
38:13
Speaker1: that that may change. But it's in a word.
38:15
Speaker0: Yes.
38:16
Speaker1: And I
38:17
Speaker1: love the sentiment of that because there is this hold,
38:20
Speaker1: especially when it's something really uncomfortable and what you want for someone.
38:24
Speaker1: You can't rush to the next place,
38:27
Speaker1: but holding space for that change. And I think
38:31
Speaker1: especially around sex, if we're thinking
38:34
Speaker1: about it as, like, how we connect,
38:38
Speaker1: we can't connect by ignoring how we
38:42
Speaker1: feel. And I think—
38:43
Speaker0: No.
38:44
Speaker1: When people get the advice,
38:46
Speaker1: oh, come on, just, just get on with it.
38:48
Speaker0: Yeah.
38:48
Speaker1: Which, you know,
38:49
Speaker1: doctors will say, you know, even if you're not feeling it, you know,
38:53
Speaker1: use it or lose it. That actually, that pushing
38:57
Speaker1: through can lead to more of a dissociation that
39:01
Speaker1: isn't about connecting, rather than creating
39:06
Speaker1: an environment, whether that be on your own,
39:09
Speaker1: like finding curiosity,
39:13
Speaker1: an environment in terms of connection with your partner,
39:16
Speaker1: actually, having some of those conversations about how you're
39:20
Speaker1: feeling to create that ultimate connection
39:25
Speaker1: that comes through sex, whether that's with yourself, whether that's with
39:28
Speaker1: many partners. Um, yeah, I think a lot of
39:32
Speaker1: the advice sometimes feels that
39:36
Speaker1: it doesn't necessarily really hold what you just did so beautifully,
39:40
Speaker1: that yes, this is how you're feeling A huge part
39:44
Speaker1: of therapy, being a therapist, being in therapy myself,
39:48
Speaker1: is somebody holding that space for you.
39:50
Speaker0: Because you
39:51
Speaker0: might not have a space in your life where that is being held, right?
39:54
Speaker0: And often in cancer, like we know and people know listening,
39:58
Speaker0: there is so much going on, right? There is no space.
40:03
Speaker0: There is no space. And it's, you know,
40:06
Speaker0: something that I've really learned through my own cancer experience
40:11
Speaker0: is that, you know, 2 things can exist at the same time. That's something that
40:15
Speaker0: I've really found, that in one hand I am so
40:18
Speaker0: grateful that I am cancer-free and in remission,
40:22
Speaker0: and my body did what it did, and the doctors did what they did,
40:25
Speaker0: and everyone helped me. But I am also, like, at the same time, like,
40:29
Speaker0: really upset and angry that this happened to me and that my life has changed
40:33
Speaker0: so much to how it was before, and that I have to, like, live with
40:36
Speaker0: that.
40:36
Speaker1: Yeah.
40:36
Speaker0: now.
40:37
Speaker1: Yeah.
40:37
Speaker0: But this gratitude and,
40:40
Speaker0: you know, anger or upset, they can both exist. They can both
40:44
Speaker0: live and sit together. And I think that's the same with
40:47
Speaker0: a lot of things that you can feel. Like you said, you can feel one
40:50
Speaker0: way now. It does not mean you are always going to feel that way.
40:53
Speaker0: And sometimes you can't, you can't hold that space of, I'm gonna
40:57
Speaker0: feel differently. You're so in it.
40:58
Speaker1: Yeah.
40:58
Speaker0: That you don't feel like, I'm ever going
41:00
Speaker0: to be able to feel different. This is how it's going to be forever.
41:02
Speaker0: And sometimes you need another person to hold that space for you that,
41:06
Speaker0: do you know what, you can't hold this right now, but I'm gonna hold it
41:09
Speaker0: here for you, and I'm gonna remind you of it at time to time that
41:13
Speaker0: it is here.
41:13
Speaker1: Mm-hmm.
41:14
Speaker0: And that it can be different. And sometimes
41:16
Speaker0: you really need that, whether it's a therapist or a friend or a professional or,
41:20
Speaker0: you know, whoever. And I think it's just really important because I
41:24
Speaker0: think that is where we end up being really hard on ourselves, because we
41:28
Speaker0: think like, well, this is it now, this is how it This is how it
41:30
Speaker0: is. And, and just to add something else you said about, you know,
41:33
Speaker0: people that say like, if you don't use it, if you don't use it,
41:36
Speaker0: you lose it. And I think that it's really important to know that there's different
41:40
Speaker0: ways to like use it.
41:41
Speaker1: Yes.
41:42
Speaker0: Use it doesn't mean that you have to push
41:44
Speaker0: through and force yourself and be in pain and do something that you really don't
41:48
Speaker0: want to do, because all that is going to do is create another really traumatic
41:52
Speaker0: experience.
41:52
Speaker1: Yeah.
41:52
Speaker0: And actually, who wants to have sex if that's how
41:55
Speaker0: sex sex is. No one wants to go back to that. No one wants to
41:58
Speaker0: engage with that. And the body will protect you from that. The body is
42:02
Speaker0: clever. Our bodies are going to be like, no, I'm not doing that. That was
42:05
Speaker0: awful. So, so it's just keeping in mind that actually it can be things
42:08
Speaker0: like just gently exploring yourself, looking in the mirror.
42:12
Speaker0: It might be just, you know, touching your body and seeing what, what feels nice,
42:17
Speaker0: what doesn't. You know, it doesn't have to be that you've
42:20
Speaker0: got to have like full-blown sexual intercourse and it's got to be how it was
42:23
Speaker0: before, and you've got to push yourself through. You know, I very much
42:27
Speaker0: advocate for pleasure, and that it's about pleasure. And sometimes
42:32
Speaker0: we have to find pleasure in different ways when we, we can't do what
42:35
Speaker0: we were able to do before, which might not be forever but might be for
42:40
Speaker0: so long. And it's really important to just like, what feels good?
42:44
Speaker0: That's, that's the key to go with.
42:46
Speaker1: And knowing
42:48
Speaker1: You know, because we did have questions about vaginal atrophy,
42:53
Speaker1: and you mentioned about dilators, is that
42:56
Speaker1: there are medical professionals in this field.
43:00
Speaker1: And it is something that you can request.
43:04
Speaker1: I know, you know, there can be really long waiting periods,
43:07
Speaker1: but it is part— like, sex is part of your health. It is sexual
43:11
Speaker1: health.
43:12
Speaker0: Yeah.
43:14
Speaker1: If it is really painful,
43:16
Speaker1: that it is something that can be looked at,
43:20
Speaker1: that you can talk to medical
43:24
Speaker1: professionals that work in this field. And it
43:27
Speaker1: took me 10 years until I found someone. And I've told this story several
43:31
Speaker1: times on the podcast, but it changed my life. So,
43:35
Speaker1: you know, just putting that out there, that change is possible.
43:39
Speaker1: But if you are experiencing pain, there are
43:43
Speaker1: things that can be done.
43:43
Speaker0: Definitely.
43:46
Speaker1: Reverse.
43:46
Speaker1: As someone who could not do anything
43:50
Speaker1: themselves, it felt like broken glass.
43:54
Speaker1: It was extremely painful, and it took a while.
44:00
Speaker1: And I felt like, oh my God, you know, just like
44:05
Speaker1: something was just so wrong with me, and there was no hope.
44:08
Speaker1: And then to find the right professional,
44:12
Speaker1: find out there is hope, and I've had Amazing sex since
44:17
Speaker1: then, right? Like, and I've, you know, and it has resuscitated.
44:21
Speaker1: Um, but when I was having sex, I was like, I think I
44:25
Speaker1: need some therapy. I need some resuscitation.
44:29
Speaker0: Yeah.
44:29
Speaker1: Um, so making it kind of fun. But it started
44:33
Speaker1: with, if I didn't feel it, it was like, how could
44:37
Speaker1: I connect to that part of my body with zero pressure?
44:41
Speaker1: And the nurse said, even if it's just get
44:45
Speaker1: a really good vibrator and a book and read,
44:49
Speaker1: just to even start that mind connection
44:53
Speaker1: with no expectation. You're not trying for an orgasm,
44:57
Speaker1: just to start it off.
45:00
Speaker0: I think this non-goal orientated
45:02
Speaker0: is so important, you know, for men and for women, especially with like,
45:06
Speaker0: you know, sexual pain or unreliable erections,
45:09
Speaker0: you know, things like this. I work a lot with women that have sexual pain.
45:13
Speaker0: I run a group for it 3 times a year with a colleague. And,
45:16
Speaker0: you know, this exactly what you've said, Tatum, like, it is just like dipping
45:20
Speaker0: your toe in and just seeing, like, you know, it might be like some erotica,
45:25
Speaker0: audio erotica you listen to. It might be like reading a book. It might
45:29
Speaker0: be like you said, a small vibrator. Sometimes with the women I work with even
45:33
Speaker0: if they're not able to like actually dilate, I'm like, just put it at the
45:36
Speaker0: entrance, just leave the dilator at the entrance. Like, you don't need to put it
45:39
Speaker0: in, you don't have to do anything, just leave it at the entrance. And,
45:42
Speaker0: and I think that's what's really important, it's knowing that like there is help out
45:46
Speaker0: there and 100% it can get better. And I think you asked me
45:50
Speaker0: at the beginning like, what is one of the most things that I hear?
45:53
Speaker0: And actually you've reminded me that one of the most things that I hear is
45:57
Speaker0: like, I am broken, there is is something wrong with me. And, and there
46:01
Speaker0: isn't, you know. These women, these people, they're not broken.
46:04
Speaker0: There isn't anything wrong with them. They feel like that, but there isn't. And,
46:09
Speaker0: you know, there is hope out there. Things can get better.
46:12
Speaker1: Yeah.
46:13
Speaker1: And sometimes it's finding the right product,
46:16
Speaker1: sometimes it's finding the right professional,
46:20
Speaker1: and sometimes while you're figuring all of that, it's, it's knowing that
46:24
Speaker1: You know, there are psychosexual therapists like yourself out there,
46:27
Speaker1: that it is, you know, their job to, you know, because this
46:32
Speaker1: is a really big thing. Relationships are immensely
46:36
Speaker1: complicated. Sex is immensely complicated at the best
46:40
Speaker1: of times, let alone when there's so much going on. So if
46:44
Speaker1: someone's sitting at home going, oh my God, I have that question.
46:47
Speaker1: Oh my God, I have another question. Oh my God.
46:49
Speaker0: Yeah.
46:50
Speaker1: Hmm,
46:51
Speaker1: maybe I could call someone like this.
46:54
Speaker1: If someone's thinking about seeing someone like you to
46:58
Speaker1: find out more, to find maybe that confidence to
47:01
Speaker1: be able to ask those questions or step out of
47:05
Speaker1: what they've maybe done before and try something different,
47:09
Speaker1: what should they expect from a first session?
47:14
Speaker1: Or what do you look for when you're like, oh,
47:18
Speaker1: who's going to work with me?
47:19
Speaker0: Yeah.
47:19
Speaker1: on something like this?
47:21
Speaker0: Yeah, that's a
47:22
Speaker0: great, that's a great question. So first of all, like, I would always advise people
47:26
Speaker0: to work with psychosexual therapists that are registered in our—
47:30
Speaker0: in the UK with the COSRAT body. So that's the College of Sex and
47:33
Speaker0: Relationship Therapists. And that just means that I'm registered with them, and it just means
47:37
Speaker0: that we've gone through specific training that's at a certain standard,
47:41
Speaker0: and we've proven that we are, you know, can work as therapists in
47:45
Speaker0: this area. So firstly, that's really important that you find somebody who's she's had that
47:50
Speaker0: sort of, um, verification, like, and is given—
47:53
Speaker0: is on a register. Um, and what else I would
47:57
Speaker0: say is a lot of therapists— I, I do this— I offer like a free
48:01
Speaker0: 15-20 minute consultation. And I would say, like,
48:04
Speaker0: book in with like a few therapists that you like the sound of, and if
48:08
Speaker0: they offer that, take them up on it. Because, you know, you need to know
48:12
Speaker0: that you feel like, I could open up to this person.
48:14
Speaker1: Yeah.
48:15
Speaker0: And of course,
48:16
Speaker0: right, it's going to be really difficult in 15 or 20 minutes to know how
48:19
Speaker0: that's going to go, but you can get a vibe in that time.
48:22
Speaker0: Like, do I feel like this person feels who— how I
48:26
Speaker0: kind of want my therapist to feel? Or I get a good— I get a
48:30
Speaker0: good vibe, I think I could talk to this person, they seem like— I don't
48:33
Speaker0: know, whatever it is you're looking for, like non-judgmental, laid-back, relaxed,
48:36
Speaker0: I don't know. Um, and I, I would say one, like, definitely take people up
48:40
Speaker0: on that because that gives you an inclination into like,
48:44
Speaker0: can I work with this person? And I think ultimately,
48:47
Speaker0: like, most people that have gone into this field of, you know,
48:50
Speaker0: there's not many of us, we're a very small niche specialized
48:55
Speaker0: group of therapists. I think there's something like only 700 in
48:59
Speaker0: the whole of the UK. They're going to have some passion and some
49:03
Speaker0: level of understanding and non-judgmental, the fact that they've even gone into this sort of
49:07
Speaker0: area of work. So, I, you know, what I would be looking
49:10
Speaker0: for is just that, yeah, they're COSRAC registered.
49:14
Speaker0: They, you know, might be talking about, like, everyone has a profile, they might be
49:17
Speaker0: talking about, like, on mine it says, like, I work with people that have had
49:20
Speaker0: cancer. You know, I've had my own cancer diagnosis. Um, usually people
49:24
Speaker0: put what they're working with and what their speciality is or interests are.
49:28
Speaker0: And then, yeah, just meet with them and see what vibe you get.
49:32
Speaker1: I think of myself as a pretty open person, but I
49:37
Speaker1: had thought about it and was, like, a little nervous.
49:41
Speaker1: Even though I'm someone that, you know, doesn't have a lot of filters,
49:44
Speaker1: and I generally give a lot of information. But there
49:48
Speaker1: was something about that, because therapy can be quite intense.
49:52
Speaker1: And when you're facing something that perhaps has been a
49:57
Speaker1: harder thing to carry, it can feel daunting. And I think
50:01
Speaker1: that anything that takes away that dauntingness, like, okay,
50:05
Speaker1: this is how I find them, Uh, this is what I'm looking for.
50:09
Speaker1: And being able to say, like, maybe, like, in that introduction,
50:13
Speaker1: you know, this is, this is where I'm at, and see what that
50:17
Speaker1: response is.
50:18
Speaker0: Yeah.
50:19
Speaker1: But if you have more questions,
50:21
Speaker1: um, me and Zoe are going to be, um, doing a workshop
50:25
Speaker1: at Shine Connect, which is our conference and
50:29
Speaker1: the only conference in the UK for adults in their 20s 30s,
50:33
Speaker1: and 40s with cancer. And we will be taking
50:36
Speaker1: more questions into the conference and doing a
50:41
Speaker1: session there. So if you're like, oh my God, I need more
50:44
Speaker1: sex questions answered, uh, you have questions,
50:48
Speaker1: get in touch. Head over to shinecancersupport.org.
50:52
Speaker1: Um, you can find out about the conference, come along.
50:56
Speaker1: It will be in London. You have more questions, you want to do
50:59
Speaker1: another episode like this. Zoe, come back because
51:03
Speaker1: I think we have a lot more questions.
51:05
Speaker0: I know, I feel
51:07
Speaker0: like I could talk to you all day about this.
51:09
Speaker1: I know, so we
51:11
Speaker1: might be doing a part 2 to this. Um, so let us know, get in
51:14
Speaker1: touch. If you do want to get in touch and you want the secret link
51:18
Speaker1: so that your question goes in secretly and not through an email, let me know,
51:22
Speaker1: I can send that out to you. But thank you so much, Zoe.
51:26
Speaker1: for being on the podcast today.
51:28
Speaker0: Thank you for having me, Tatum.
51:29
Speaker0: It's been wonderful.
51:31
Speaker1: I'm reinspired, I have to say.
51:34
Speaker1: I think that acknowledgement of sex
51:38
Speaker1: being important, whether you are partnered, whether you're
51:41
Speaker1: on your own, it is something that we return
51:45
Speaker1: back to. And, you know, every time there's a pivotal moment—
51:49
Speaker1: breakups, new dating, being in a relationship for
51:54
Speaker1: a long time— It's quite a fluid state as we're going through our
51:57
Speaker1: lives. And actually, these things of being curious,
52:02
Speaker1: of checking in with, what do I like now? And knowing
52:06
Speaker1: if you're unsure about where to go, that there
52:10
Speaker1: is the information, but it's also about how you feel about it.
52:14
Speaker0: Exactly.
52:16
Speaker1: Oh, lovely. Thank you so much.
52:18
Speaker0: Thank you, Susan.
52:20
Speaker1: Thank you to Radio Facilities for
52:22
Speaker1: sponsoring our podcast. Till next time, bye!
52:25
Speaker0: Bye! This is not your grandma's cancer show.
52:30
Speaker0: Not your grandma's cancer show.