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Episode 347: The Psychology of Pitching · The Growth Project

• 0:00
  You.
• 0:03
  Welcome to the Growth Project.
• 0:05
  This is a podcast brought to you by AMP Lowe's. We are a performance psychology practice in Greenville, South Carolina. We exist to help you be better and pursue better, to be better for the people that matter most in your life, the things that matter most and pursue better. To give you the, information, knowledge and hopefully encouragement to keep your dreams guiding your memories, to understand that we can create a better version of ourselves and a better version of our work.
• 0:33
  Doctor Courtney Schaefer is, our resident expert on the psychology of pitching. And so a little bit different, of, of a podcast between the two of us. But really just want to pick your brain. You've been a man, I guess, working in baseball for. I mean, it started at Florida State that I know of in your doctorate work and just really want to pick your brain a little bit about how working at pitchers of all levels, from every level, what does it take to really, master the psychology of pitching and what are some of the lessons you've learned?
• 1:06
  Some of the lessons you teach and some of the lessons that hopefully our listeners can apply? Yeah, yeah, I think it's probably useful from the jump here just to acknowledge, you know, out of the gate something that that we believe in, whether or not you're interested in baseball or pitching. You know, some of the aspects here, mindset, mental skills, as they're related to baseball and pitching, I think, you know, these are the same skills and in many ways, the same mindset that you need to be successful in life, or in your work.
• 1:36
  And so just want to drop that disclaimer from the start. If maybe listening to 30 or 40 minutes on baseball doesn't feel like your thing, there's probably still some stuff in here for you. So yeah, I think hopefully that's with all our podcasts that you as a listener, what we hope your job is, is to come with a a sense of curiosity, an open mind, and kind of think about what does this mean?
• 1:57
  What does it mean to me in this stage of life and the roles that I'm playing? But more importantly, what can I do with this information to help me, be better and pursue better? And so when we think about the psychology of pitching, let's just backtrack a little bit. You know, we've talked a little bit in previous podcast of what motivated you to become a sports psychologist mental performance coach, but specifically in the area of baseball.
• 2:22
  What what made you gravitate towards baseball? Yeah, I've actually thought about this, quite a bit. And in many ways, I think what I've learned over time, you know, now ten, 11 years or whatever, doing this, even going back further, you know, to graduate school. But, I feel like baseball in particular is a sport and you could probably throw golf in.
• 2:45
  There is another example. It's sort of like the perfect union in my mind, the intersection of like where my skill set and my personality and my, my tempo and pace and sort of how I teach things, and what is required within those sports where I think it just intersects in a very, like, authentic way. The pace of baseball is very slow.
• 3:10
  I tend to have, in, in many ways a little bit more of a slower pace. The depth, I think that is required for these sports and the time spent, just in your head, I think, you know, there there's incredible value there to learning how to use that time better, more effectively. As a guy who I think spends a lot of time in his own head, I feel like I can relate, to players in baseball pretty easily.
• 3:35
  So I think in a lot of ways it's sort of begins there. I also think going back and just looking at my childhood like baseball is such a big sport. For me and one that I gave up pretty early, unfortunately, I think I kind of got burned out on it. Probably had a little bit of a fixed mindset about it.
• 3:53
  Yeah. So there's a sense of connecting back to that, I think when I get around baseball, which I enjoy. So, yeah, I mean, a lot, a lot of different things there, but some combination of all of those. Yeah. And so let's just talk real quick for before we get into the, the actual psychology of pitching. You got burned out in sports.
• 4:12
  We know young people are experiencing burnout at, earlier and earlier ages. What do you think is contributing to that burnout that we see? And what can parents have, especially pitchers? The pressure on young pitchers is so great. What can parents do to help prevent that burnout? Yeah, I think ultimately, and research supports this in many ways, but like the early specialization is probably the big thing, you know, of not doing that, of not.
• 4:40
  Yes. Yeah. Like the ones who specialize, I think, become more susceptible to burnout, more vulnerable to burnout, because there's just no break from it. You know, I think living in the South that's, you know, as well, for the last 14 years, there's a new appreciation for, like, it it really is. You're right that growing up in the northeast, that's not really the case, right.
• 5:01
  The seasons won't allow it. So you kind of just move on and turn the page to the next sport. But but here, you know, it really is and can be year round. I think there's such a draw and a push to, to get a college scholarship. And every parent wants to believe and hang on to the dream that their kid is, you know, the next big thing and major in baseball.
• 5:21
  And of course, that that dream and that aspiration is fantastic. But I think when that results in just this year around, baseball schedule combined with with the kids, I think often feels like this pressure to perform and be perfect. Yeah. Like every day they take the mound or they take the field in their college scholarship or their draft stock is on the line.
• 5:43
  Like, that's just a lot to to sort of handle for a young person. Yeah. And you talked about having a fixed mindset really understanding the and belief of my identity is so wrapped up in what I do. And specifically the psychology of pitching. The pitcher is so exposed and and one of the loneliest places to be in a team sport.
• 6:05
  And everybody, you know, I just remember the little league days. You know, the things that were said to the pitchers were not very helpful, in that process. So if you have a young child, has an aspiring pitcher, he may be left handed. Make sure it's his dream, not yours. And make sure we're trying to add the right pressure and take away the wrong kind of pressure.
• 6:27
  So observing and working with pitchers now over the last 14, 15 years, just big picture. As you said, it's you gravitate towards that, the pace of the game. But what makes it unique the psychology of pitching. What makes that such a unique skill set?
• 6:42
  Yeah. That's a that's a great question. Surprise. Yeah. Well, I think just in general started start with this.
• 6:49
  Like, you've worked in football for a long time, right? Longer than I have. And I think my observation in football pretty quickly was like, man, it's almost it's crazy how like different position groups. Yeah. Or seem to be wired in such a different way, you know, let's say your quarterback kind of needs to be pretty cerebral and, you know, probably a deep thinker and so on.
• 7:13
  In my experience, many like, offensive linemen are very similar. Right? Then you have like your straight your players, you know, your DBS, your receivers and stuff. Like, you know, I think for what we do, maybe a little bit, more hesitant to buy in. There's just so much confidence, almost borderline cockiness or arrogance with there's that similar sort of breakdown in baseball and, and I hope I'm not generalizing too much.
• 7:39
  I think those are just trends and things. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Absolutely. I was, smiling because I was thinking of the players in my mind and yeah, definitely a little more cerebral, like very in tune with, you know, routine and all these little nuances of the game. I think I learned pretty quickly it didn't take long to realize, like, how different pitchers and hitters were and in a lot of ways, very similar to just having, you know, grossly understated and maybe, overgeneralize things in, in football, but very similar, you know, hitters, there's such a level of confidence and almost a stubbornness in like, well, I can just go swing more, you know, work
• 8:18
  through any slump. Yeah. Yeah, right. Like I can just go spend 4 or 5 hours in cages. I'll get my swing right, and then I'll be good pitchers. I think what's really unique about pitchers is they know that there are only so many bullets in the chamber, so to speak, right, that they can't just go throw more, right?
• 8:34
  That that would lead to injury and so on, especially for talking about starting pitcher. And that's I think we'll probably focus on the starting pitchers here. Relief pitchers as whole. Yeah. Right. But like starting pitchers, it's okay. I've got five days, let's say, or a week between my next start. Every day is sort of programed and there's a rhythm to it and it looks so similar.
• 8:57
  So they're very process oriented. But there's only so much that they can do. Yeah. It's all in your hand. That I think is what makes it really unique. And where I think very early on, pitchers become more open to like, I've got to find a way to close that gap on start days, to be a little bit more confident knowing that I might only throw a 30 pick bullpen.
• 9:21
  Yeah, but I'm expected to go pitch 6 or 7 scoreless in my next start and throw 110 pitches like it's just very different and unique in so many other sports. Yeah, it's a great perspective of I can't overdo it, so I better be prepared mentally. When do you think you start seeing this shift in that, that we know that physical talent opens the door, but where do you think you start seeing the breakdown that the mental separation is really what creates, the mental preparation creates a separation.
• 9:51
  Where does that kind of breakdown in pitching? Yeah. Probably college. And I've been I've been very fortunate obviously to work players that like for example Clemson. Right. An elite, power for Division one baseball program. It has been for a long, long time. So we're we're kind of getting the best of the best, right?
• 10:08
  Like the cream of the crop. We're talking about the best players and, and in each state and so on. So these kids really are that much talent and that I think for most of them high school, they can kind of breeze through it, especially the true like high school season. There's not much competition there. So that's where for them, the competition comes in these like an elite travel ball schedules and so on, where at least now they're facing competition is probably more similar to their level.
• 10:35
  But really in college I think now, you know, imagine being a freshman and stepping into, you know, the clubhouse and you're, you're now in this environment where. Well, okay, there the talent pools sort of level, you know. Right. There's maybe less of an advantage there. These people, every single other person in this dugout, let's say, is more physically developed than me because they have one year, two years, three years, four years, you know, time in this program, the dedicated strength coach to get their body right and so on.
• 11:11
  And they're also used to pitching to colleges, you know, all those things I think contribute to where very quickly, I think those young guys step into, you know, as soon as their freshman year and they realize like, oh, boy, this is this is a whole new ballgame. And some of them, again, to be making it will come a little bit easier than others.
• 11:32
  But the vast majority, I think that's really where the first realization is like, okay, they're used to seeing 95 here. Yeah. Like a better come up with something different. Exactly. It's almost like okay you know, my my 12 six breaking ball didn't quite play like it did you know in in high school. So that I think is really where the separation starts to occur or where the need is clear that there's no gap.
• 11:58
  And I've got to fill that with something. And so kind of that that freshman coming into Clemson, we're talking about these elite, you know, these these significant moments. Maybe it's high school to college. Maybe it's college to minor league. Maybe it's minor league to you know that moment where the there's a step up in competition and you start creating a little bit of doubt in your mind.
• 12:19
  What does that look like for a pitcher? What are some of those doubts that creep in and how does that affect their performance and preparation? Yeah, I think some of it honestly is indicative of just youth sport. And this is not an indictment of use for coaches, but I think pitchers like golfers, you know, their tendency is going to just assume that if they're struggling with their performance that it's something mechanical or physical that's wrong.
• 12:47
  That's what they're going to pin it on because they haven't learned or been taught otherwise right up until that point. If they were a little bit off. Yeah. Especially if they're dominating. It's just like, oh, well, let's see what's up on video. And oh, I'm flying open. And that's why, you know, I'm missing an arm sign up or whatever it is.
• 13:05
  They always just go straight to mechanics, right. And that's the answer. But what I'm what I really try to help them understand as soon as they possibly can is just like, hey, but what if it's not physical, right? Like, you're bullpen seemed fun three days ago and the mechanics were great, and you felt pretty confident coming in.
• 13:24
  And then all of a sudden it started. And now all of a sudden your mechanics are bad. Like, I don't think you you got worse in the last four years. So. So how do you raise that question? Because that's kind of what we do. We're going to post possibilities of what else might it be to kind of open the door, but how do you raise that question and not kind of shatter their confidence?
• 13:42
  How do you how do you use that as a method to say, hey, you're mechanics, you're really good. What how do you do that? Yeah, I mean, I think it's ultimately just, encouraging them and even sort of that line of questioning to get them to recognize like, okay. Yeah, it was it was pretty good two days ago.
• 14:00
  Yeah. I felt pretty good before the game, maybe. And I got into the moment and all of a sudden things change. Yeah, maybe we should explore something else in the sort of low hanging fruit. The example or kind of the metaphor I always use is like to just pin it. Each time on something physical or mechanical is the equivalent of, you know, pulling weeds in the garden, but just pulling what you see on the surface.
• 14:25
  Think unless you get the root, the problem is probably going to come back. Yeah, that is probably what some of them realized over time is they recognize like, man, something's not right here. And I need to figure it out. I'm just going to try to do on my own. First of all, that's what many of them do. Kind of dig their heels in, right?
• 14:42
  Not ask for help. And after so many times of doing that, I think finally they kind of throw their hands up like, all right, I don't know what to do here. This is all kind of new for me. I can't just seem to figure this out on my own. And then that that vulnerability and the willingness to, to kind of open up and maybe explore.
• 15:04
  Hey, it could be like, if I'm honest, you know, I felt like I had to be perfect coming into this album. And then it's crazy how quickly that expectation right now brings that sense of pressure, because I thought, okay, the leadoff hitter gets a bloop single, right? Well, now I've given up perfection. Exactly. I felt like coming in.
• 15:25
  I need it to be perfect. It's already not perfect, so things are already starting to spin a little bit. Now there's this feeling of pressure like, okay, just got to get, you know, now I have to get this next guy right. And ideally I'd like to strike him out, you know, because ball in play, like, I don't know if I could try something different.
• 15:42
  I mean, all these things are running through their mind. Yeah. And I don't think they understand that that can have an impact on your mechanics or how you're rushing through, you know, your delivery or whatever it might be until they connect those dots. Unfortunately, the problem keeping in. Yeah, I mean, you talk about that so much of life we want to pin our finger on what we see and what we know and what is explainable.
• 16:07
  Or in business, we want to make excuses or blame other people, but that Will is encouraged to have the vulnerability, to look at yourself, be willing to ask for help and see it from a different perspective, and then the stress of that experience when it doesn't go as planned, like that stress speeds you up as you know or slows you down.
• 16:24
  And the harder you try, the further away you get. Absolutely. Yeah. And I think it's also where you see, you know, I mentioned about myself probably looking back, having a pretty fixed mindset about who I was as an athlete in general, but certainly as a baseball player. That now gets magnified too. Yeah. You see pretty quickly, who's going to stick this out and get better because of this experience and the, the failure, the setback being challenged.
• 16:54
  And who already has decided it's indicative of this place, this coach, this whatever, just trying to pin it on anything other anything other than like, hey, I just need to get better. Yeah, maybe I'm not as gives. I thought it was. And like that. That's obviously a very hard thing to come to terms with. So as you mentioned before, you know, there can be a little bit of a bluntness involved in this process.
• 17:17
  But at some point that's what they need, is that realization of like, man, this doesn't mean I can't be great. Yes. But right now I'm not. Yeah. And taking ownership of that. That's why that growth versus fix is so important is that growth mindset mistakes and challenges as opportunities for growth and to get better fixed mindset is we look to make excuses and blame other people.
• 17:37
  And and I talk a lot about maturity coming close to matching talent. And it takes a lot of maturity to be willing to ask for help with that awareness. And so as you start building these relationships with these pitchers and you start teaching them about the mental game, and I think the hardest part for pitching is kind of like our specialists.
• 17:55
  It's kind of like for golf, the game starts with you. Yeah. As a pitcher, nothing starts. It rides in and goes on. That first pitch. How how do you teach? What's different about handling that pressure, especially especially, baseball with that individual focus in a team sport? Yeah, it's really interesting. I mean, the the reality is, a lot of these guys are very competitive, and they want they want to win.
• 18:25
  But helping them to recognize that, hey, the best thing that you can do for your team is to make sure that you are mentally ready yourself to, to give your best. And that may start, you know, conversations you're very familiar with. And I've had plenty of over the, over the years, but like, hey, let's just explore.
• 18:40
  What is that. Right. What does it mean for you to be at your best. On start day. And then let's backtrack from there. And what can we do to, to help facilitate that. What actions and decisions can we make over the course of the week that they have in the bullpen, whatever, to kind of get you into the right mindset?
• 18:59
  Because the reality is, the physical aspect of pitching is there's always going to be variability, even though even the best pitchers in baseball, the guys who will win the Cy Young this year, you look through their, their game logs and their starts and there's some stinkers in there. Right. And so because there's just naturally going to be sort of this variability in my quote stuff.
• 19:25
  Right. Or what I'm presenting physically, the best thing I think you can do for yourself, for the team, is just to show up the way you want to show up mentally. And I think setting that tone for the guys around you, I think provides, a level of, calm and a peace of mind for them, even when they see you like.
• 19:45
  All right. Yeah. He's ready to compete today. And in the ballpark. Doesn't know that. Maybe you don't have your best stuff. Right? But. But to show up, and and not necessarily feel the need to do anything different to get yourself ready to go, but just have enough confidence to say, like, hey, whatever I have today is good enough.
• 20:05
  Yeah. And, you know, I always tell the great, great, quote from John Lester, who's a former pitcher for the Red Sox, the Cubs, he fought teams. And basically he says, you know, I get 30 starts as Major League Baseball starting pitcher. I get about 30 starts a year, about five of those. I'm probably in my game like my best stuff.
• 20:25
  Everything's on velocity squared movements. Good. Whatever. About five starts a year, I'll have my game like the exact opposite. Nothing with great velocity down. You know, movement on my off speed isn't good and so on. And so about 2020, out of those 30 starts, I've got something in between. Right? Maybe this one pitch feels good, but my all speed doesn't, mentally feel good at me and my body's just not feeling great, whatever it is.
• 20:50
  Right? You talk to pitchers about that and they're like, man, it's remarkable how accurate that is. Yeah. In general. Right. Like your average day at the office, so to speak, is like this is good. This isn't so good. You kind of have, something in between, you know, very average and very good. And so his point is, though, your success as a major League Baseball player now talking about the pinnacle of the game is not dependent upon the egg.
• 21:13
  Yeah, right. It's on the the 25 out of the 30 starts that you don't like. What do you do on those days. And that's what's so important for pitchers to overcome, is that that's a huge cognitive hurdle for them to recognize that, hey, I still can get outs, I can still compete my butt off and may not look pretty, but it's not beauty.
• 21:34
  Yeah. And as you get out. Yeah, I think that's such a great mindset for life in any other sport. Can you be proud of how you compete? Can you be proud of how you show up and find a way to fight with what you have and who you have? And too many times I made it really easy for pitchers and especially young pitchers like, I don't have it today.
• 21:53
  I don't like it. It doesn't feel right, and your feelings will betray you. Because it's as your thing. So you're not as you feel. So you think, and you can talk yourself out of finding a way to compete. So, so kind of one of the things I talk about is giving each play, each pitch a life of its own, you know?
• 22:12
  And so what would a good mental strategy be? Hey, you know, first inning, three up, three down, nine pitches, second inning back to back home runs. Right I like because beyond success and failure what's what's a strategy to kind of stay in the present moment whether it's good or whether it's bad. Yeah. It's hard I think at the core of of baseball pitching sports.
• 22:35
  Right, is that is how do you manage? It's kind of the ebbs and flows. And can you stay consistent steady. And so I think it probably starts there. And yet that's still easier said than done. You know, having a a pre pitch routine that you can turn to that you feel like helps you accept and move on from whatever just happened, good or bad, and move on.
• 22:55
  To, to the next pitch. You know, one of the things that I think has been helpful, that I've encouraged of, of some guys and I think has connected well, for them, it can be so easy in the moment to begin this narrative in your mind around not just like, okay, there's a runner on first, but how he got there.
• 23:15
  Yeah. Like, oh, I threw such a great pitch. And you know, he got this just kind of flicked is there allowed him hit this little bloop single. You know I'm like woe is me I can't believe that. Or I just went through this 8 or 9 pitch battle with this guy, but, you know, pitch number five, I had strike three.
• 23:33
  But then because, like, the reality is, it doesn't matter how he got to first base, he's on first base. Yeah. And as long as you're living in that space of, telling the story of how he got there, you're probably not going to be fully present for the next pitch that you need to throw. So, you know, at some point pulling that out and just sticking with the facts and sort of the neutral or more productive way of just looking at like, okay, runner on first, nobody out to hold it.
• 24:04
  Two goal hitters up and I need to give my best focus to the two hitter, you know, because he might be the best hitter in the lineup. Like that's the reality of the situation, right? You could go back and create the story later. You can watch the film. You can you can kind of break that down. But performance and life happens in the present moment.
• 24:22
  And I love how you bring about like here the facts don't care. Like my fault. Like he's on first base. Here's the situation. Here's the pitch that's required. That's a great way to stay in that present moment. Yeah. To get like, sort of, you know, a big name in the field of sports psychology. Doctor, Kendra passed away a couple years ago.
• 24:42
  He always defined competing in baseball. He did a lot of work in baseball. As you get 100% of what you have in the moment to win the next pitch. But 100% of what you have implies, you know, I, I was going to have 100%. Yeah. You know I was going to feel great about where, what just happened or where you're at in the game or whatever.
• 25:00
  It doesn't matter is can you take what you have and directed towards the next pitch? And that's the point. And and man, is that hard for for guys to do sometimes is to admit that, like, you know what? After ABC happened, if I'm honest, I think I stopped competing. Yeah. Like that's a hard thing, right? To come to terms with because what you're acknowledging is in that moment, like, I didn't give my best effort and I the reality is I let what happened in these previous pitches and the fact that maybe you got down in the game, I let that then impact what happened and then what came next.
• 25:36
  And so and I think that's what I've learned. Sorry to interrupt you. I think that's where people Cory that really is what eats at their soul that, that not that they got beat, but they didn't give everything they had. They didn't control. Like that's where regret
• 25:51
  and that to me is, is like the strength of pitchers though as many of them certainly not all of them, but many of them.
• 25:57
  There's a level of humility
• 25:59
  where at some point, right, like there's an acknowledgment of like there's nobody else to point to. Yeah, yeah. And if you continue to to point the finger at, pitching Coach Collier called the wrong thing or catcher called the wrong pitch, like, well, you had to agree to throw it, you know?
• 26:19
  Right. Like at some point. And if you're not throwing the pitch with full intent and with full conviction, is that on the catcher or is that on you? And, man, I had to have some really good conversation. So obviously this comes back to you at the core. There needs to be a relationship to have these types of conversations, because there has to be somebody has to be willing to tell that person, like, are you going to look in the mirror first and foremost and, you know, I, I've again been fortunate to, to work with great people over time, who many are willing to hear that.
• 26:54
  Right? I mean, many athletes are very coachable. They want to get better and so on.
• 26:58
  There is some freedom in talking because because we aren't deciding playing time. We aren't sort of wing it. So there's some freedom that we offer that, hey, we're a safe place to talk to. Well, one of the, one of the things, man, I hate to hear it.
• 27:10
  And it's not just pictures, but it certainly happens in the baseball space. Is this just like, well, you know, I just I just want to win so bad. That's why I get so emotional. I get frustrated, I get angry, and then just, you know, it derails my outings just because I want to win so bad and and I've had to have some hard conversations and just look at people and be like, perhaps like you want to learn about that.
• 27:32
  And I had one key, and I remember, I mean, he was like, you want to, you know, like I was challenging his, his manliness or something. And I was just like, look, man, because the reality is, if you wanted to win that badly, then the best thing you could have done in the moment is move on. Yeah, right.
• 27:49
  And so you want to appear as if you, you, you care so much and you want to win so bad. But if you actually are committed to that, then it should look a whole lot. And I think that's where the expectations and social media creates a story of this guy's got grit or he's tough and he's a competitor, and it's all based on these false assumptions of the emotion associated with it, and especially a pitcher to be calm and poise because we can interpret that as, oh, he just doesn't care.
• 28:17
  But if some guy's mad and upset, but like, okay, well, how is that helping? How is that helping you throw the next pitch? It's more about just being authentic, right? They're playing the pitchers. You know, I always use like Max Scherzer, Max Scherzer as an example. But he he approaches everything like with this level of hand. And you can kind of see it in his face.
• 28:36
  And I don't know anything about that. And then you have other guys who who are sort of calm, cool and collected. So I think if you're an intense guy trying to be. Yes. Right. But but channel it appropriately, right. And put it into the next pitch. Like that's what I think your teammates. That's what I think your coaching staff manager, whoever like that's what they want to see is like, hey, despite the fact that you just got punched in the mouth, are you willing to get right back in there and throw the next pitch with conviction?
• 29:04
  That is so much more important than the fact that you just gave up a run or two. Yeah, that's that's what's going to lead your team. Like that's going to set the tone that we talked about looking the part. Hey, you know what Mandela say if you want to wear the costume, you know, if you want to look the part, you got to wear the right costume.
• 29:20
  And so that from the spirit of authenticity is like, this is who I am. And your teammates are going to kind of feed off of that. Yeah. Yeah. So one of the things I think you do a great job of, and I hear this as you're talking, maybe because I just know your work so well. We talked about the difference between evaluation and criticism.
• 29:36
  And that criticism really stifles growth and limits creativity. How have you told your pitchers to evaluate instead of criticize? Yeah, I mean, this is this is sort of central or, you know, core to, I guess, my philosophy and how I want to do work. And that goes regardless of sport. But I think it's very, very applicable and almost in some ways, anyways, easier to do for pitchers.
• 30:01
  I think it's actually more of a challenge for hitters to do just because of the sheer volume playing every day, 4 or 5 at bats, every day. Yeah, there's a lot there to try to like, evaluate, pick through pitchers, though, again, because like in, let's say, starters, you know, you've got five, six, seven days between your next start.
• 30:18
  You have nothing but time. And so I think one of the best things that you can learn to do, and this is aligned to how we teach since is more broadly nebulous. But it's got to start some awareness. And so whether the last one was great or it was awful, you need to understand what went into that and how you got that result.
• 30:35
  And the reality is, I've asked this question many times, too many athletes over the years, but your absolute best performance is or something you could have done better. Yes. In absolute worst performance. Are there things that you still did well? Yes. All right. Well every other outing you've ever had falls somewhere. Yeah. So we could probably find some good, some bad in each one.
• 30:57
  So just talking through the importance of and giving them a framework for how to kind of reflect on and evaluate their audience. This is sort of a starting point, and just letting them do it, knowing that it's probably going to be pretty bad. Yeah. At first, but they just need the experience of doing it. My expectation isn't that they come out of games just perfect.
• 31:18
  They need to try. They need to establish good behavior before we before we sort of refine the details of it. And so I'll let them do it and sort of take a stab at it. And then after a couple while getting feedback and it's amazing how, you know, I use this as an example recently, actually, there was a major baseball player last year, talk to him about it.
• 31:39
  I mean, these outings gave him a framework to do it, shared a Google document. His first two of spring training. Just let him do on his own. And then we reconnected, you know, a week or two later, it just went through it ultimately. Just just wanted to show him, right? Like, not prove a point, but just, you know, hey, he says this and I just say, well, like, tell me more.
• 32:01
  And then he's able to elaborate on it for the next five minutes and kind of like, see how much more there is. Yeah. Right. And whether it's good or bad again, like, hey, great performances at that level. Like they don't just grow on trees. So the better we understand the variables that were present that produce that, the more likely we can.
• 32:17
  Yes. Yeah. I think that's what people get. Like they go try to recreate the performance instead of recreate the variables that contributed to the performance. And so getting them to connect those dots now, like many of them, have never really thought in that way. Yeah. Because like we talked about earlier, they always just felt like, well, I just throw hard, you know, I just have nasty stuff or whatever it is.
• 32:40
  But getting them to connect those dots is really important. And so this particular guy describing his third evaluation and his third, this is spring training, right? So we brought in the pitch in 2 or 3 innings. But you know, what was like a quarter of a page. Half a page was now more than a page. And you could see how much more depth he was able to go into very quickly, just because I showed him and helped him with fine.
• 33:04
  Like, do you see the information that like the goal remaining for is this? It's the process of how this happened. It was what were your what do you thinking in some of these moments where you feeling in some of these moments, like take yourself back to that place and evaluate everything change at this one pitch, man, don't you think we should spend time thinking about that one pitch, right?
• 33:24
  And the better we understand what happened there and then what happened next, those little moments, the more of those we sort of capture, over time is how hopefully we limit those moments down the line. And so, yeah, there's absolutely, again, like a very long term approach with some of them I think it frustrated by. But I tell every one of them in spring training, let's say if we're talking big leaguers or college players like, hey, you know, January, February, like I'm concerned with who you are, for amazing baseball player.
• 33:57
  Let's say I'm concerned with who you are in September. Yeah, not in March, you know what I mean? And can we start taking steps forward and start closing that gap, to where you feel like and even beyond that, right. Is like next season. I hope that you're learning just as much as you are this season. And if you do this the right way, that will.
• 34:16
  Absolutely. You know, I think we just want a short term fix. Yeah. You know, what did Socrates or Aristotle say? The unexamined life is not worth living. And and so this framework real quick, what are some highlights of the framework you mentioned a little bit? What were you thinking? What were you feeling. Yeah. I mean you can simplify it down to just, you know, what works.
• 34:33
  Well, why and how did you go that way? What didn't go well? Why and how and then, you know, takeaways, lessons learned. I'll tweak and adjust that based on, you know, the the athlete himself. What what do they think is important? You know, we we talked, you know, podcast here. My work with Spencer Strider Spencer and I kind of would find his, post to start his post-game evaluation over time to include the things that we think are most important for him.
• 35:04
  But that's also him taking ownership. Yeah. Process. And that's what I tell him all. It's just like, look, try this. If there are things you like, don't like, something's missing here. Like, this isn't for me. Ultimately, this is for you. And so I think it's always important when I have them take note of. Because we want to be able to refer back to this.
• 35:21
  I know you've done this with with your athletes as well. The date, the opponent, the location. Yeah, right. I think that's relevant. And then after the fact that most of the time the athletes don't even fill this in is the result, I'll go back in and fill in the result because I, you know, again, we we are connecting.
• 35:40
  This isn't growth for the sake of growth. It's growth for the sake of performing the way you want to perform, and getting the desired results. So the connect dots between okay, this is what I was thinking feeling, but this was the outcome. I'll, I'll go in a lot of the time to fill that stuff in. But I think it's really useful especially for these pitchers, anybody for that matter, to establish going in.
• 35:59
  Just what is your intention? Yeah. Like what are you focused on. Right. And if you just take a couple of minutes before your start to kind of say, this is how I want to show up today, this is where, my focus is going to be. I think that sets the tone and know the quality of what you do, will probably make.
• 36:18
  Yeah. You just mentioned in life, I don't think we do that. We're just going to look up and go through the motions. And that's why this is so relevant to the world is we don't have clear intentions. It's not consistent with our goals. We get in our own head and we stay stuck in the past, or we anticipate the future.
• 36:36
  And we are in, in the present of what we're trying to accomplish. And then we don't take the time to really examine well what was different and why and how and what didn't work and why and how and what am I learning along the way. Yeah. And I mean, from there primarily that the pre-game is just sort of like just pride yourself for like, how do you want to show up for the day?
• 36:57
  Some of these big league guys I've gotten the habit of, like every start day, I'll shoot them a text and just say, hey, you tell me about your mindset. I used to be the one to tell them, like, hey, here's what I think you need. And I think over time, it didn't take me long to recognize, like, yeah, this isn't about what I think.
• 37:11
  It's about what they think. So you tell me, what mindset do you want to have today? But most of that work again is done in like after the outing, after the game and just giving them the opportunity and sort of the format to explore that in any way that their mind, again, can give them that simple framework, the good, the bad and so on.
• 37:31
  But, again, I think these guys end up being at such a level where I shouldn't have to address, like your overarching mindset going into a game like you're a professional baseball player. Yeah. But it's it's discouraging how many people no doubt. And that's I'm saying like, that tone we, we worked through that early in the process.
• 37:55
  Right. But once that is checked, not that we never have to revisit it, but it's almost like I had to talk to high school kids just about having the right mindset to show up to to play. Yeah. Yeah, right. You're a professional, right? I shouldn't have to address like, hey, just from the start, you weren't in the right headspace today.
• 38:13
  You're going. I mean, we're focused in so granular, like I mentioned on, I mean, me and Strider and I both spent 45 minutes talking about 1 or 2 pitches. Yeah, because that's the difference in that world. The margins are so small between a good one and a great one. Yeah. You know, six, seven scoreless or five in the third three earned you know and pretty good right.
• 38:36
  It put my team in a position to win but not great. Yeah. You just to me how long. Didn't think high school college and pro exactly. But that's my point right. College kids like yeah they're still a little more you'll see like stretches where it's just like it was good, good, good good. And then fell off a cliff.
• 38:53
  It'll get bad quick. And they don't know why. Exactly, exactly. But that's the point, right? Yeah. Teach them how to think through things. You have to teach them how to evaluate. But the pro guys like that's the point, right? It's like, man, I should never have to address with these guys. Like, hey, this dress you were just seen to be in a terrible mindset.
• 39:12
  And it doesn't mean they're human. It doesn't mean that it won't happen from time to time. But the vast majority of the time is we're honed in on, like, very specific moments, and we're trying to capture as many of those as we can again. So in the future, like, hey, you'll probably be in a similar situation. But because you live through this one and you actually learn from it.
• 39:31
  Yes, we can have a better response next time. Well, that's what I hear too. All of it. It's not your mental game. It's theirs. Correct. That's why, you know, I, I've, you know, at this point I talk to agents and all this kind of stuff for these pro guys. And one of the things I've actually gotten feedback on, which I appreciate it, just get hearing this was, you know, a lot of a lot of the people in this space, they attempt to just use your cookie cutter program, do it like this.
• 39:55
  Yeah. Right. And like, man, I, I just don't like that. Because if that's how women operate, like you just said, they're always implementing my mental. Yeah. Not theirs. Right. I want to teach you. I want you to understand why we're doing this to begin with, instead of just hating you. The answers to the test. Right. I'm going to sort of nudge you in the right direction.
• 40:17
  I'm going to provide examples like, make sure that you have what you need to kind of get it started and get it going. But the onus here is on you to experiment with it, to try try it out. And just see what works. It makes sense for you. It is yours. Yeah. And I think with anything we presented and plus there's framework and fundamentals that we wholeheartedly believe in and teach.
• 40:43
  But it's your job to integrate into who you are and what you believe and how to make it work for you. And when you do that, it's your yeah. And you're going to be so much more committed to it, so much more convicted in it, right, than if it's if it's mine. Yeah. And you're kind of just you're, you're, you know, where in my shoes to work or something.
• 41:00
  Like, that's not how they should be. Yeah. I'm not wearing the jeans. And so yeah that that's ultimately to me, what's more important is I'm trying to empower them to, to make it their own. They're the ones who have to go do it. So they need to be confident and comfortable in it. But a lot of people, to be honest, especially these younger generations, like, they just want the answers to the test.
• 41:21
  Yeah. And that's just one thing I try to make known from the beginning is like, again, providing framework, I'll point you right direction. I'm not interested. And that's I mean, that is good fundamentals, whether you're a pitcher, whether you're a leader, whether you're a parent. Our job, our job is not to make people dependent on us. Like they got to take this.
• 41:41
  And for me, yeah. Yeah. Well, this has been awesome. I love kind of picking your brain on the psychology of pitching. And I think there are so many parallels to life. Final thoughts? Comments. Before we wrap up, I know, I mean, where I started, I think, hopefully this wasn't didn't end up being too baseball specific, although there's a lot of baseball language like you mentioned, right?
• 42:03
  Yeah, there there's a lot of this. I think that applies to everybody, regardless of what you're doing or sport. And I believe in some of these fundamental things, you know, everything we talked about on the podcast, like you just said, it's not we're not necessarily saying, hey, here's the script. Yeah, do it right. Take two of these and you're just like their mindset.
• 42:23
  It's you got to go try it out. You got to be willing to be vulnerable and explore that yourself. And there's some trial and error involved in that. That's a little bit more of, it takes a little bit more time and responsibility, but the payoff is in the long run, yes. We're trying to do is about the long run.
• 42:40
  It's about long term sustainable change and growth, not about some quick fix. It's going to help you feel good today. Yeah. Well, awesome. Well I love hearing the passion. I appreciate you sharing with it. Thank you for listening. And until next time, continue to be better and pursue better.