Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / Growth Mindsets & Academic Improvement

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Growth Mindsets & Academic Improvement · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Hello, Welcome to the Happy Families Podcast. Today on the pod,
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: it's a doctor's desk episode. A brand new research report
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  Speaker 1: published just in the last few months asks can growth
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  Speaker 1: mindset interventions improve academic achievement. It's a structured review of
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  Speaker 1: the existing evidence. Big study, important study, really really useful
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  Speaker 1: if you want your kids to do well. You know
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  Speaker 1: that whole idea of a growth mindset, like if you
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  Speaker 1: think you can, you can. If you think you can't,
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  Speaker 1: you can't. You're probably right either way, that is increasingly
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  Speaker 1: under scrutiny. It seems that the research evidence suggests that
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  Speaker 1: the growth mindset data is not living up to the promise,
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  Speaker 1: and we're going to unpack why that is. Next on
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  Speaker 1: the Happy Families Podcast, It's The Happy Family's podcast, Real
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  Speaker 1: Parenting Solutions every Day, Australia's most downloaded parenting podcast, where
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  Speaker 1: Justin and Kylie Coulson. Every Thursday on the pod, we
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: dissect recent research. We have a look at what's going
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  Speaker 1: on in the world of academia as it applies to
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  Speaker 1: you as a parent. Today, a conversation about growth mindsets
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  Speaker 1: and fixed mindsets. It seems that the science is far
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  Speaker 1: from settled, so I'm going to assume that most people
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  Speaker 1: have heard of a growth mindset.
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  Speaker 2: It's been around for a really long time. But can
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  Speaker 2: you dissect it a little bit? Can you help us
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  Speaker 2: to understand what it actually is and why it became
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  Speaker 2: so popular in the first place.
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  Speaker 1: Okay, So, in two thousand and six, Carol Dwek, a
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  Speaker 1: Stanford University psychologist with a resume that would make just
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  Speaker 1: about any researcher on the planet jealous, published a best
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  Speaker 1: selling popular book, it was not an academic book, called Mindset.
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  Speaker 1: And the idea is really really simple, and I think
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  Speaker 1: that's why it's caught on so well. If you've got
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  Speaker 1: a fixed mindset, you believe that your intelligence is a
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  Speaker 1: fixed quantity. You can't increase it. You're either smart or
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  Speaker 1: you're dub or you're somewhere in between, maybe your average
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  Speaker 1: or a bit above average, but that's kind of where
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  Speaker 1: you are. If you have a fixed mindset, Therefore, you
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  Speaker 1: try to do stuff, well, you don't try it. You
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  Speaker 1: do stuff that you know you can do, and you
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  Speaker 1: avoid stuff that you know that you can't because you're
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: not very smart, or you're not very this, or you're
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  Speaker 1: not very that. And we have fixed mindsets about all
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  Speaker 1: kinds of things. Maybe it's our physical ability, our capacity
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  Speaker 1: to make friends. Some people say, oh, I'm an English person,
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  Speaker 1: but I'm not a maths person. Right, So that fixed
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  Speaker 1: mindset idea is I either can or I can't. There's
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  Speaker 1: no in between. My brain doesn't work that way. Oh,
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: the cross country is coming up. We're going to leave
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  Speaker 1: that to your friends to do the cross country. We're
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  Speaker 1: not runners in our family where readers. It's that kind
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  Speaker 1: of idea.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, But then you've got people who know that they're
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  Speaker 2: not good at something and they're not actually interested in improving,
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  Speaker 2: but they're willing to give it a go.
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  Speaker 1: Right, So where does that feed? We normally call that
• 2:38
  Speaker 1: a You normally call that a growth mindset. So a
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  Speaker 1: growth mindset is no matter how intelligent you are, you
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  Speaker 1: can continually improve your intelligence. You can build your intelligence,
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  Speaker 1: you can become smarter. Your brain is like a muscle.
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  Speaker 1: So if you go to the gym and you lift muscles,
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  Speaker 1: your muscles get bigger and stronger, and your brain works
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  Speaker 1: the same way. Fixed mindset says, no, you've either got
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  Speaker 1: muscles or you don't. Growth mindset it.
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  Speaker 2: Says you've either got brains or you don't.
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  Speaker 1: Well, no, growth mindset says you might not have them now,
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  Speaker 1: but you can learn the stuff and then you will
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  Speaker 1: have them. So the idea behind growth mindset is really optimistic.
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  Speaker 1: It's this concept that just because you can't write now
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  Speaker 1: doesn't mean you never will. The most important word in
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  Speaker 1: growth mindset research is yet, I can't do it yet.
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  Speaker 2: Okay, So you're telling me that it's not true? Is
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  Speaker 2: that what you're about to tell me that?
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  Speaker 1: That's not what I'm telling you. Okay, all right, But
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  Speaker 1: a brand new research paper has thrown some pretty cold
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  Speaker 1: water on what has been a red hot topic for
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  Speaker 1: the last twenty years. So there's no hope, that's what
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  Speaker 1: I'm saying.
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  Speaker 2: So what I'm saying, okay, all right, Well you've read
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  Speaker 2: this new comprehensive review.
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  Speaker 1: It is comprehensive.
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  Speaker 2: What does it actually share with us? What did you
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  Speaker 2: find out?
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  Speaker 1: Okay? So first off, let's just get the details right.
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  Speaker 1: This was a paper that was published by Carolina Gazmuri
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  Speaker 1: from Durham University in the UK. It was published in
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  Speaker 1: the Review of Education late in twenty twenty five, and
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  Speaker 1: this is a really comprehensive review. She's gone through a
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  Speaker 1: very very rigorous search, screening and evaluation process. Looking at
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  Speaker 1: the evidence from growth mindset interventions, she found twenty four studies.
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  Speaker 1: All of them were randomized control trials, which is the
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  Speaker 1: gold standard that we're looking for focused on growth mindset
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  Speaker 1: of intelligent interventions for school aged children, and those RCTs,
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  Speaker 1: those randomized control trials had to include output measures for
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  Speaker 1: academic performance. And here's the headline, I don't want to
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  Speaker 1: bury the lead. Their findings showed that the strongest studies,
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  Speaker 1: the ones with the largest sample sizes, the ones with
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  Speaker 1: the least missing data, the ones with the highest data quality,
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  Speaker 1: showed either null or very small effect sizes. Those effect
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  Speaker 1: sizes ranged from a Cohen's d of negative point zero
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  Speaker 1: one to positive point zero six'. Five there were some
• 5:00
  Speaker 1: concerns around conflict of interest Biased there were some negative
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  Speaker 1: and null results that might still be. Unpublished there were
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  Speaker 1: four evaluations with a high degree of trustworthiness and no
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  Speaker 1: conflict of interest In among, those two studies showed no
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  Speaker 1: discernible impact of growth mindset interventions and another two showed
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  Speaker 1: a very small. Impact that's the science speak of what
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  Speaker 1: the research report.
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  Speaker 2: Showed, okay So i've got two responses to. That the
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  Speaker 2: first one IS i THINK i. CAN i THINK i.
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  Speaker 2: Can IF i THINK i, CAN i, try, right. Yes
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  Speaker 2: SO i don't understand how there was such little variance
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  Speaker 2: in the, outcomes because IF i don't, like IF i
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  Speaker 2: don't BELIEVE i, can classic, EXAMPLE i really struggled with,
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  Speaker 2: maths AND i still. Do it's not a strong point of.
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  Speaker 2: Mine AND i actually had a teacher in grade ten
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  Speaker 2: who just looked us all in the eye and he,
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  Speaker 2: said it doesn't matter who you, are where you've come.
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  Speaker 2: From if you want to do well at, mass he,
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  Speaker 2: said you can get AN a in my co, YEP
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  Speaker 2: i still got A c minus or what.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah right, Right and then there's that, argument, well if
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  Speaker 1: you if you just did the, work then you would
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  Speaker 1: have got the Eighty and some people are, like, No
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  Speaker 1: i'm doing the. Work it's it's not working for.
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  Speaker 2: Me, Yeah so that's my first. Response So i'm really
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  Speaker 2: struggling with the fact that there was such little. Variants
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  Speaker 2: but you kind of mentioned this Whole COHEN'S d of
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  Speaker 2: zero point zero six.' five what does that actually mean
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  Speaker 2: in the? Real, world like what are you?
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  Speaker 1: Talking about very very, science speaking So BASICALLY. COHEN'S d
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  Speaker 1: a Guy Called jacob cohen invented this Thing called cohen's
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  Speaker 1: d and it theoretically ranges from negative infinity to. Positive
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: infinity but, in practice in educational research and in, psychological
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  Speaker 1: research you typically see values from minus one to. Plus
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  Speaker 1: one so and most of those values will fall between
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  Speaker 1: point five and negative. Point five i'm going to keep
• 6:53
  Speaker 1: you awake here with just one. MORE thing a small
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  Speaker 1: effect size is, point two a medium effect is, point
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  Speaker 1: five a large effect is. Point, eight right so if
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: you're getting a CO and cd of, point two you're
• 7:07
  Speaker 1: going to, be, like, OH yeah i guess this is making,
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  Speaker 1: some difference but it's not really a. Big deal the
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  Speaker 1: growth mindset Review that i've just talked about was from
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  Speaker 1: point zero one to point zero. Six' five to put,
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  Speaker 1: that in perspective point zero six' five is about One
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  Speaker 1: third of what coen set is, A small effect size
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  Speaker 1: so this is a third of small negative point zero one,
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  Speaker 1: means there's no, effect there's no impact there's. No nothing
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  Speaker 1: at all.
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  Speaker 2: So, researchers obviously recognized this and yet they published it
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  Speaker 2: and have taken the world by storm by it in
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  Speaker 2: spite of the fact that there's actually zero. RESEARCH to,
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  Speaker 2: support them i mean. Is, this not controversial.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah IT is Controversial and i mean i've got a
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  Speaker 1: conflict of, interest HERE as well because i TRAVEL the
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  Speaker 1: country and i give talks on this very topic and
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  Speaker 1: teach teachers aut, how GROWTH mindset works and i teach
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  Speaker 1: them about everything that they don't know that they don't
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  Speaker 1: know about growth mindset because everyone thinks they know, a
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  Speaker 1: lot about it. But they actually don't and so it's
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  Speaker 1: really tricky to stand up in front of a bunch
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  Speaker 1: of teachers and talk about this when. The Research is
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  Speaker 1: questionable now i've got. Some theories about it we'll talk about.
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  Speaker 1: That in a sec but that's. That's the main thing
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  Speaker 1: the other point that you raised is? But what ABOUT
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  Speaker 1: yet WHAT about? I think i can what about the?
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  Speaker 1: Little engine that could i'm a, huge believer in it
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  Speaker 1: whether or not the Science is picking up and this.
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  Speaker 1: Is the critical thing is the science sensitive enough? To
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  Speaker 1: pick up movement are we? Using the right measures are
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  Speaker 1: we doing? THIS the right way i Just know that
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  Speaker 1: when i've got somebody who's STANDING beside me saying, I
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  Speaker 1: think you can, I think You can or if I'M
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  Speaker 1: saying TO myself, I think I can, I think i
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  Speaker 1: can i usually go. Further, And do more Yeah i'm.
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  Speaker 2: Thinking if i'm On the bike and i'm On my
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  Speaker 2: own and i'm going up some stink and, hill AND
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  Speaker 2: it's hard and I literally feel like i'm. About to
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  Speaker 2: fall OFF the only way i get OVER that hill
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  Speaker 2: is i literally scream, at, myself and say kyl. You
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  Speaker 2: can do this. I've done this before. Get over THE hill,
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  Speaker 2: but if i DON'T then it's Literally i. Honestly think
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  Speaker 2: i'd fall like.
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  Speaker 1: The belief that, if you do stuff if, you keep on.
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  Speaker 1: Trying you'll get better that's got, to, count for something,
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  Speaker 1: right it has TO and so therefore i think that
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  Speaker 1: there but how? Do they measure that, so after the
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  Speaker 1: break let's talk a bit more about this study and
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  Speaker 1: what it really means if you're a teacher or if
• 9:23
  Speaker 1: you're a parent and you want your kids to have
• 9:25
  Speaker 1: a growth mindset for this evidences calling. It all into
• 9:28
  Speaker 1: question stay With us Where Back it's The happy families
• 9:39
  Speaker 1: Podcast today a doctor's desk episode about whether or not
• 9:43
  Speaker 1: the research evidence is, going, to be useful supportive or
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: worth doing. Anything about it all when it comes to
• 9:49
  Speaker 1: this growth mindset stuff that everybody seems to love but
• 9:52
  Speaker 1: doesn't seem to work when you look at the data.
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  Speaker 2: We've already shared that you go into. Schools and teach
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  Speaker 2: this so this is a really tricky. And problem quite
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  Speaker 2: controversial but, because mindset is everywhere especially, In our education
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  Speaker 2: systems so what should schools do differently. Based on this.
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  Speaker 1: RESEARCH here's the way i see it the mindset concept
• 10:15
  Speaker 1: when you run it as a whole school, intervention and
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: you say we are going to sit down and explicitly,
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  Speaker 1: teach kids this stuff and then we're going to have
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  Speaker 1: a control group that. Doesn't get taught it we're going
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  Speaker 1: to have a look at what. Happens with the grades
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: there could be any number of things that. Are going
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  Speaker 1: on here school in and of itself, is a controlling
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  Speaker 1: environment and what happens in school classrooms in terms of the. Way,
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: feedback is given like one of the critical things in
• 10:38
  Speaker 1: this area is the, way, We Give praise right carol
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: tweck makes a, big deal about saying make, sure it's process.
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: Praise not person praise focus on the, effort they're putting
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: in not. The outcome they're providing but if you look at,
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: the broader praise research it says. DON'T praise at all
• 10:55
  Speaker 1: i mean it's really really clear that praise is not
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: a helpful thing when it comes to. Children and They're
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  Speaker 1: achieved So what i'm WHAT i'm thinking when i look
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  Speaker 1: at this is they're doing these randomized CONTROLLED trials in
• 11:05
  Speaker 1: the UK and in the. Us and they're not and
• 11:07
  Speaker 1: this is not the first research paper, to call into
• 11:09
  Speaker 1: question but, the school context matters and the socioeconomic variables,
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: in the school matter and the achievement standards. Of the
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: students matter there are, so many variables.
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  Speaker 2: Here, IT'S so complicated well i think you've, in your
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  Speaker 2: family dynamics.
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  Speaker 1: Like the messages that. You're, Getting at HOME yeah so.
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  Speaker 2: If i go back to that, mass scenario for ME
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  Speaker 2: my teacher believed I, could GET an a BUT i never.
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: Believed i could precisely and so no matter how, MANY
• 11:37
  Speaker 1: times somebody says, I believe in you you've got the capacity.
• 11:40
  Speaker 1: You can do this if you're sitting, there going yeah,
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: right you're just saying, ex you're the testion you get,
• 11:44
  Speaker 1: paid to do it then you're not going to change
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: your mindset teaching. SOMEBODY the, mindset concepts i mean we
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  Speaker 1: do this in Our living room every, sunday with our
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: kids whether it's mindset or and any number of the
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: other things we try to teach, our children, about motivation
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  Speaker 1: well being, living a, great life, being kind being helpful all.
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  Speaker 1: That sort of stuff doesn't mean that they believe. It
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: or do it it takes of offer. It to sink
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: in so you asked the question? What should schools do this.
• 12:06
  Speaker 1: Is the critical thing no study has shown that there's any.
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: DETRIMENTAL effects to take i was, about, to say that
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: so like if you look, at screens in schools there's
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: a whole lot of studies that show that there are
• 12:16
  Speaker 1: detrimental impacts from relying, Too heavily on technology but there
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: are no studies, that are really, showing oh my goodness
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: this is making. A huge positive difference, with the mindset
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: research there are no studies showing. That there are negatives
• 12:27
  Speaker 1: there are some studies showing positives and some saying it's.
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: NOT really doing anything i would rather take my chances
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: with something that has pretty much no. Downside but potentially
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: UPSIDE and that's how. I look at this if you're,
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: in a school environment, if you're, a, parent, you're going oh.
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: So what's the point what's. This whole conversation about it's
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: as follows there's no downside to. Teach in growth mindset there's.
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: No downside, AT all the research i have never found a,
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: single paper that said not only, does this not. Work
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: but it's harmful. I've Never found that all i've ever found, are,
• 12:57
  Speaker 1: papers that say well the upside might not be as
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: up as everyone. Says that it is it looks like
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: there might be a neutral effect at. Best in some
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: cases but it certainly. Doesn't drop, below, NEUTRAL so, therefore yeah,
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: i mean, long answer long answer but.
• 13:12
  Speaker 2: Don't stop doing it so if the, evidence was so
• 13:16
  Speaker 2: weak why do you think that growth? Mindset became so popular.
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: Because it's so catchy it's so easy to. Get your head,
• 13:21
  Speaker 1: around it's. That simple REALLY totally because if, i say
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: to you if you believe that, you can do it
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: you're going to try harder than if you don't believe.
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: You can do it that's a really easy concept to
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: catch people understand the. IDEA of PERSISTENCE resilience i think
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: i can the. Little engine that could this is taking
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: something that's old and putting a, form so it's familiar
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: but putting a fresh spin on it and putting. Some
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: science around it it's caught on. Because people instinctively understand it's.
• 13:46
  Speaker 2: Just it makes sense so some people are going to
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: hear this and they're, going to literally say but growth
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: mindset's made all the difference.
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: In my kids, Classroom that's my point like that. Is
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: literally my point the research evidence may not tell us
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: that there are going to be positive effects in all
• 14:02
  Speaker 1: these gold, standard randomized controlled trials but when you talk
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: to people, who are doing it PEOPLE like you and i,
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: with our own kids classroom teachers, all over, the COUNTRY
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: they'll say when i change THE language and when i
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: focus on helping kids to just give, it one more go.
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: They make more progress they have, More light bulb moments
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: they have GREATER success, than if i, SAY you know
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: what i don't think you were Really. CUT out for
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: english i don't think that you should. Do the cross country.
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: It's just not you you're not that kind of kid
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: that doesn't. Lead to positive outcomes so the.
• 14:32
  Speaker 2: Whole concept believing that you can, improve right through effort?
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: Is?
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: IT fundamentally wrong.
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: No i mean. How can it be look at everything
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: that we, do in our lives the reason that, we
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: learn a language the reason that we, start a health
• 14:46
  Speaker 1: program the reason, that we read books the reason that
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: we do all those things is because we know that
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: those things with intention can help.
• 14:51
  Speaker 2: Us to be better so is it the formal interventions
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: that Are, NOT working.
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: For yeah i think that there, are too many, variables
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: it's too complicated and therefore this is a really. Tricky
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: area to research i'm not actually the world's biggest believer
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: that this is going to change. THE world for everybody i.
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: Truly DON'T think that but i do believe that it
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: will change the. World for some kids HERE'S the way that, i,
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: look at it right fixed minds that says you either.
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: CAN or you can't i don't want to be the
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: adult that looks at one of, my kids and, Says
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: you know what you're just not. Cut out for. THIS
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: don't bother totally i.
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: Look AT the days when i go to the gym
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: with like. A defeated belief system those days, the, gym
• 15:30
  Speaker 2: is hard right DON'T even achieve what. I, achieved last
• 15:33
  Speaker 2: time RIGHT the days that I go in and I
• 15:37
  Speaker 2: feel palmed And i'm, READY and i'm energized i often,
• 15:41
  Speaker 2: will Do personal bests like i'll push myself IN a
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: way that i would never HAVE pushed myself if i
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: didn't believe.
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: THAT it was possible i want my kids to find
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: their limits and then to discover if. They can exceed
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: them that's really, what you're talking about and the growth
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: mindset concept. Is about doing that it's not up for
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: up to us as parents, or teachers to, say YOU
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: know what could i but you're. Just not very bright.
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: That's not our job our, job is to. Say YOU
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: know what what i really want to see you do
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: is give this a crack and see how. Far you
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: can go and then once you've gone as, far as
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: you can let's have a chat about it and see
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: what we, can do from there see what some extra
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: support can do to get, you to go further and
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: let the kids.
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: Find their own limits so what's your message to educators
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: who've invested a lot into this whole growth. Mindset in
• 16:25
  Speaker 2: their classrooms they might be feeling defensive or. Disappointed about
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: this research what would?
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: YOU say to them i guess it's just a summary,
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: of everything we've discussed and that is that the language
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: that we use will have an impact on the motivation and,
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: the effort that, many though not all. Students will put
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: in it's. The, same at home therefore it's like there
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: is no. Triumph without the trial. You can't do it
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: yet that which we persist in doing becomes easier, For
• 16:52
  Speaker 1: us to do not that the nature of the, thing
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: itself has changed but that our power. To do has increased,
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: those kinds of slogans quotes ideas they count resilience doesn't
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: feel resilient, when you're in it and as we foster
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: that attitude being, in the learning zone being uncomfortable and recognizing,
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: that because you're uncomfortable the longer, you can stay that
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: the more you'll learn and grow that will. Lead to
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: better outcomes this. Should not be disputed this should. Not
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: be in question it's just that some kids come from
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: backgrounds where, it's not showing up and some schools aren't
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: getting the. Results in the studies the RCTs aren't always
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: showing it doesn't. Mean it doesn't work it just means
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: right now that the. Evidence is needing refining so That's
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: It for our. Doctor's desk episode today i'll link to
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: it in the show notes for those who would like
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: to get into the nitty. Gritty of the research thanks.
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: So much for listening we're back tomorrow With More on.
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: The happy families podcast Which Is produced By Justin. Ruland
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: from bridge medium imhammonds provides research and admin support and
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: for more info to make your family happier visitors at,
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: happy families dot com dot a y