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Off Record: Playing God · The Knife: A True Crime Podcast

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  Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised.
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  Speaker 2: The claims and opinions in this podcast are those of
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  Speaker 2: the speaker and do not necessarily represent The Knife or
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  Speaker 2: Exactly Right Media. Welcome to the Knife Off Record. I'm
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  Speaker 2: Patia Eton, I'm Hannah Smith, and today Patia I have
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  Speaker 2: a story to tell you. I cannot wait. I'm excited
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  Speaker 2: about it. It's a cult story, which you know, I
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  Speaker 2: can never get enough of, and it is a current case,
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  Speaker 2: so a little different than what we normally do. And
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  Speaker 2: it's something you may have heard of in the news.
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  Speaker 2: It is the cult group in California and the Inland Empire.
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  Speaker 2: Their group has the name His Way spirit Led Assemblies. Okay,
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  Speaker 2: So I have heard of a cult that was happening
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  Speaker 2: in the Inland Empire. Didn't know the name of it, okay.
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  Speaker 1: The authorities have described the group as quote cult like,
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  Speaker 1: So this cult like group. Two of the leaders, who
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  Speaker 1: are married have been arrested and charged with murder, and
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  Speaker 1: a few other members of the group as well on
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  Speaker 1: various charges. So it's been written about. It just happened
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  Speaker 1: in December of twenty twenty five. These arrests happened and
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  Speaker 1: so obviously there's still a lot that will find out.
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  Speaker 1: But I've been super interested in this case, and as
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  Speaker 1: I've read about it, I'm finding pieces of information here
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  Speaker 1: and there, but I haven't found like one big deep
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  Speaker 1: dive about everything that's going on. So I decided to
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  Speaker 1: find everything I could about this. But you're the lady
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  Speaker 1: for the job, yeah, and so I want to tell
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  Speaker 1: you everything I know about it and like everything that
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  Speaker 1: we know up until now.
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  Speaker 3: Basically, Okay, I can't wait.
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  Speaker 1: So it was December of twenty twenty when these arrests happened,
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  Speaker 1: so this is really recent, really recent. The group has
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  Speaker 1: been operating since the nineteen nineties, but these charges just happened.
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  Speaker 1: And one of the reasons I wanted to do an
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  Speaker 1: off record about this is because it's kind of complicated.
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  Speaker 1: There's a lot of people involved, and also a lot
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  Speaker 1: of law enforcement agencies. So this investigation involved both the
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  Speaker 1: Redlands and the Colton Police Departments, the California Department of Justice,
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  Speaker 1: the Riverside Sheriff's Office, as well as the San Bernardino
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  Speaker 1: County DA's office, and the Colton Police. Sergeant Sean McFarland
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  Speaker 1: spoke with the LA Times. They did an article about
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  Speaker 1: this which just really excellent, and he told them, you know,
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  Speaker 1: this is a cult like group and that the leaders,
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  Speaker 1: Shelley and Darryl Martin, imposed excessive control over the members.
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  Speaker 1: Members had to hand over their income and a lot
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  Speaker 1: of them lived together in multiple properties in Colton, Hemmet,
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  Speaker 1: and Anza, which those are all places in the Inland Empire.
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  Speaker 2: I can see why they described this group as cult like.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, handing over incomes, okay, hand reader income first red flag.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: So in December of twenty twenty five, five people were
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  Speaker 1: arrested and all of them were either current or former
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  Speaker 1: members of this religious group, his Way Spirit Led Assemblies,
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  Speaker 1: and among those arrested were the groups two leaders, a
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  Speaker 1: married couple, Kat and Daryl Martin. Now they're facing multiple charges,
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  Speaker 1: but most notably, both have been charged with murder and
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  Speaker 1: connection to a death that occurred in twenty ten. But
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  Speaker 1: that's not the only case. Authorities are also investigating a
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  Speaker 1: second potential homicide, which is a missing person connected to
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  Speaker 1: the group. And the allegations that have started coming out
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  Speaker 1: about the Martins the leaders of this group are deeply disturbing.
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  Speaker 1: I'm going to get into all of it, but it's
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  Speaker 1: just like emotional abuse, spiritual abuse, physical abuse, sexual abuse.
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  Speaker 1: I mean, there's allegations that they're depriving people of sleep
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  Speaker 1: and food. It gets so extreme. And I'm going to
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  Speaker 1: get into the charges, the allegations, all of those specific stories,
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  Speaker 1: but before I do that, I feel like we need
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  Speaker 1: to understand the group itself, his way spirit led assemblies,
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  Speaker 1: Like what kind of religious organization was this, who did
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  Speaker 1: it involve, how did it start? You know that kind
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  Speaker 1: of thing.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, because I've definitely seen headlines about this, and just
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  Speaker 2: from what you're saying, I'm so curious because it's already
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  Speaker 2: reminding me of like the Wilderness therapy story we did,
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  Speaker 2: where we know there was a murder, and you know,
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  Speaker 2: we know that when people are in extreme circumstances, even
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  Speaker 2: psychologically emotionally terrible things can happen. And yeah, I'm slightly
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  Speaker 2: aware of the story. So I'm really glad you have
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  Speaker 2: done all the research you can tell me more.
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  Speaker 1: Okay, let's get into it. So I'm going to start
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  Speaker 1: by if anyone isn't familiar, kind of like, what is
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  Speaker 1: the Inland Empire. It's an area in California east of
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  Speaker 1: Los Angeles about forty miles east and it consists of
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  Speaker 1: San Bernardino County and Riverside County. It's a rapidly growing area.
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  Speaker 1: Currently about four million people live there. It's a metropolitan area.
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  Speaker 1: And I just looked up a little bit of the history.
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  Speaker 1: At the end of the nineteenth century, it was a
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  Speaker 1: mostly agricultural area. The industry was a lot of citrus, dairy,
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  Speaker 1: and wine making. That agriculture industry kind of declined throughout
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  Speaker 1: the twentieth century, and since the nineteen seventies it's just
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  Speaker 1: a rapidly growing area. A lot of families moved there
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  Speaker 1: because it's more affordable than La Proper.
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  Speaker 2: It's basically between here and the desert.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, if you're going to Palm Springs, we have to
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  Speaker 1: go through the inland.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah. I think I have been to Claremont, California, which
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  Speaker 2: I think is in the inland.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, Okay, So before we get into the crimes, I
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  Speaker 1: want to dig into this group His Way spirit Led Assemblies.
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  Speaker 2: His Way spirit Led Assemblies is the name.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a long name. Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: Wow.
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  Speaker 2: You have to commit from the beginning of joining to
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  Speaker 2: just know the name.
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  Speaker 1: No, the name his Way spirit Led Yes, And who
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  Speaker 1: are the people that lead this group. There is a
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  Speaker 1: married couple. So the wife is Shelley Bailey Martin. She's
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  Speaker 1: currently sixty two, and she's gone by several different names.
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  Speaker 1: The most sort of current name, she's going by his Cat.
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  Speaker 1: She was going by Catherine and now it seems to
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  Speaker 1: be Cat oftentimes Prophetess Cat had previously gone by Prophetess Catherine.
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  Speaker 1: And her husband Darryl Music Martin fifty eight, who goes
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  Speaker 1: by several names as well. He's often called Pastor Music
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  Speaker 1: or simply senior Pastor. So we have a prophet in
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  Speaker 1: a pastor.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, we have a.
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  Speaker 1: Prophet in a past and they've been operating this group
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  Speaker 1: His Way Spirit Led Assemblies in the Inland Empire since
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  Speaker 1: the nineteen nineties. Now I was curious, you know what
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  Speaker 1: sort of internet presence they have. They have a YouTube.
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  Speaker 3: Channel, and okay, I love that, yes.
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  Speaker 1: Love that for us. There are videos of both of
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  Speaker 1: them giving sermons from twenty seventeen, so this was, you know,
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  Speaker 1: years ago, but it's still I think interesting to watch
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  Speaker 1: and it gives us some information about what they look
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  Speaker 1: like and what kind of messages that they were spreading,
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  Speaker 1: at least back in twenty seventeen. They also have a website. Now,
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  Speaker 1: if you go to the website today, it just looks
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  Speaker 1: like a generic homepage with a stock image of a church. Oh,
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  Speaker 1: but it's still up. It's still up, but there's like
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  Speaker 1: nothing on it. There's a contact us page, so it's
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  Speaker 1: essentially been taken down, but I mean it's still there. Yeah,
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  Speaker 1: but I was able to find some things on the
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  Speaker 1: way back Machine and love the wayback Machine.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: If you don't know, the wayback Machine is an Internet archive,
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  Speaker 1: and if you search a website on it, it'll sometimes
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  Speaker 1: give you screenshots of defunct websites or what websites looked
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  Speaker 1: like previously.
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  Speaker 2: So if someone, say takes something down that they've since
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  Speaker 2: decided they might not want up, you can maybe find
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  Speaker 2: it on the wayback Machine.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, it doesn't work. I don't think with websites that
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  Speaker 1: you have to log into, like social media. Yeah, but
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  Speaker 1: any like public website.
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  Speaker 2: I remember using it as an associate producer a lot.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, we have used it many times. Yeah, it's a
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  Speaker 1: pretty good tool.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: It's also a good reminder that once something's on the Internet,
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  Speaker 1: it's on the Internet forever, so always something good to
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  Speaker 1: keep in mind.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: So I'm going to talk about the website. They also
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  Speaker 1: have a YouTube page which it looks like their website
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  Speaker 1: linked to at one point in time, and the page
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  Speaker 1: it really paints this picture of a charismatic Christian church
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  Speaker 1: that was very focused on miracles, signs and wonders such
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  Speaker 1: as people being healed or you know, the power of prayer.
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  Speaker 1: And I just want to say that I don't think
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  Speaker 1: in and of itself that that is a sign necessarily
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  Speaker 1: of a high control group. There are a lot of
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  Speaker 1: Christian churches that believe those things and promote those things,
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  Speaker 1: and they're not necessarily stealing people's money or you know,
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  Speaker 1: trying to control every aspect of their life. Is just
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  Speaker 1: part of the belief system. So I could see how
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  Speaker 1: someone could go to their website in twenty eighteen and
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  Speaker 1: look at it and think it's, okay, this is a church.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: You know, there's a bunch of verses from the Bible
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  Speaker 1: on this website, and there's also pictures of the two
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  Speaker 1: leaders who in twenty eighteen were calling themselves head Prophetess
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  Speaker 1: Catherine Martin and senior Pastor Music Martin.
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  Speaker 2: Okay, so until you told me that's what they're calling themselves,
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  Speaker 2: I'm thinking this website tracks perfectly for just a church,
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  Speaker 2: no red flags.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, but head prophet tests and head.
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  Speaker 1: Prophetest although you know, I do think that there are
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  Speaker 1: some churches that have titles in their church of prophet
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  Speaker 1: and prophet tests.
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  Speaker 2: Oh wow, Yeah, I mean I didn't know that. I
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  Speaker 2: did not grow up going to church and to this
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  Speaker 2: day unfamiliar, but yeah, yeah, I didn't know that. I
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  Speaker 2: always sort of thought it was like a no false prophets.
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  Speaker 1: Like right, because you know, you think about profits, no
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  Speaker 1: false prophets those there are profits in the Bible. I
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  Speaker 1: don't know are there profits now. It's one of those
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  Speaker 1: things where it's just like, you know, I don't want
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  Speaker 1: to criticize someone's religion, but to me, it feels like
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  Speaker 1: a road that could easily get very dangerous if someone
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  Speaker 1: is claiming that they have this very special way of
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  Speaker 1: hearing God that maybe no other people can't access.
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  Speaker 2: Right, because I could see how then their role changes.
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  Speaker 2: It's like if I believe I'm talking to someone who's
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  Speaker 2: speaking directly to God and I'm a believer in God,
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  Speaker 2: that would be a relationship that would become really really
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  Speaker 2: important to.
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  Speaker 1: Me, powerful, powerful, because then if you disagree with that person.
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  Speaker 1: Are you disagreeing with them the human or are you
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  Speaker 1: disagree with God?
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  Speaker 3: Right?
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  Speaker 2: How wrong could they ever be about something if they're
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  Speaker 2: speaking directly to God?
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, so I think for some people you're write like
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  Speaker 1: the head Prophetess is probably a red flag. If you're
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  Speaker 1: deep into the sort of evangelical, charismatic sect of Christianity
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  Speaker 1: that really focuses on miracles, it might not be a
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  Speaker 1: red flag to you for some people. It also seems
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  Speaker 1: like music is really important for this group. And then
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  Speaker 1: also some former members have talked about that since that
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  Speaker 1: the music was really good. It was really lively. They
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  Speaker 1: liked the music, and we.
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  Speaker 2: See that more and more. Yeah, I mean those mega
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  Speaker 2: churches are what have you? Like?
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  Speaker 1: The music is a huge part of it, like going
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  Speaker 1: to a concert.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: There is a music video on the homepage, or it
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  Speaker 1: was in twenty eighteen featuring senior pastor Music Martin, and
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  Speaker 1: I can only describe it as sort of a Christian
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  Speaker 1: rap video okay love. Yeah, so it's like, Okay, they're
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  Speaker 1: really into music. They're doing their music thing now. The
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  Speaker 1: YouTube page there are multiple clips of both Prophetess Catherine,
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  Speaker 1: who will later go buy Prophetess Cat or just Cat
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  Speaker 1: preaching as well as senior pastor Music Martin. They're not
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  Speaker 1: full sermons, okay, so it's just a segment like they're
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  Speaker 1: like seventeen minutes long ish. Probably the full sermon, I
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  Speaker 1: would guess is longer than that. So they're putting clips
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  Speaker 1: of their church services online on their website.
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  Speaker 2: I actually like that in a sense. I didn't go
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  Speaker 2: to church, but I can imagine walking into a church.
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  Speaker 2: It's like, you know, a congregation that they all know
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  Speaker 2: each other. It could probably be intimidating if you're new,
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  Speaker 2: and then you don't even know if it's going to
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  Speaker 2: resonate with you. And so if I was in the market,
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  Speaker 2: I probably would love a YouTube video of a sermon
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  Speaker 2: to sort of see what it was all about.
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  Speaker 1: Before you decide commit your time going to a service.
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  Speaker 3: Totally.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, I do think it's like kind of a marketing thing. Yeah,
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  Speaker 1: this is what we're about. If you like it, come
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  Speaker 1: to a service.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: And I like that it feels, you know, at face value, transparent.
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  Speaker 1: It does feel transparent at face value.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: So the first video I watched was of Cat giving
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  Speaker 1: a sermon, and this was actually from twenty seventeen and
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  Speaker 1: I just want to kind of pause for a second
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  Speaker 1: and talk about the room where this is taking place,
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  Speaker 1: you know, because it's not maybe what some people might
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  Speaker 1: picture when they think of a church. It's not this
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  Speaker 1: like grand sanctuary with stained glass and vaulted ceilings. It's
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  Speaker 1: not like a historic building. It reminded me of a
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  Speaker 1: lot of church rooms that I have been in my past,
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  Speaker 1: like humble, smaller spaces. In fact, I think this space
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  Speaker 1: was in a strip mall in Rialto, and I later
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  Speaker 1: read that they also met in houses, so I don't
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  Speaker 1: know that they always had a location, but this seemed
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  Speaker 1: to be in a room that looks more like a
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  Speaker 1: conference room than a church. You know, there's no windows,
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  Speaker 1: white walls, kind of a modest little podium and stage
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  Speaker 1: up front with instruments on it, and you know, cushioned
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  Speaker 1: stackable chairs and those drop ceilings that you see.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, like very bare bones tech startup vibe. But I
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  Speaker 2: mean I like that because you know, when we see
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  Speaker 2: these mega churches and these massive productions that they put on, immediately,
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  Speaker 2: I think a lot of people wonder, how do you
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  Speaker 2: have this kind of money?
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  Speaker 3: Yeah?
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  Speaker 1: And what are you are you spending your money on?
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  Speaker 1: Remodeling your huge.
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  Speaker 2: Right church, Right, is that what we should be asking
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  Speaker 2: our congregation for money for. Yeah, And so to hear
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  Speaker 2: that it's taking place in like this modest conference room
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  Speaker 2: in the strip mall or at someone's house with plastic chairs,
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  Speaker 2: it's like, I don't know, I feel like if I
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  Speaker 2: were looking for a church that that would feel good,
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  Speaker 2: that would feel like, Okay, we're here for the right reasons.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah. I'm also recalling that they had a tab on
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  Speaker 1: their web about missions, and I don't know what they
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  Speaker 1: actually did with that or what all they gave, but
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  Speaker 1: it would give me the impression of maybe their money
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  Speaker 1: is going to the right place. It's like going to
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  Speaker 1: charity as opposed to a fancy building totally. But it
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  Speaker 1: also tells me that we're not talking about a megachurch here.
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  Speaker 1: I would guess that their membership was pretty small. I
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  Speaker 1: have no idea how many members they ended up having,
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  Speaker 1: but my guess would be like less than one hundred
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  Speaker 1: would just be total speculation. It just doesn't seem like
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  Speaker 1: a very big group, okay. And maybe that's also why
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  Speaker 1: they were putting these videos up and the website trying
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  Speaker 1: to grow it. It does seem like they were trying
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  Speaker 1: to pull people in. So as far as sexual sermon,
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  Speaker 1: Cat's sermon, it's sort of hard to follow, if I'm honest.
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  Speaker 1: She's soft spoken, she's blonde, in her mid fifties, and
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  Speaker 1: from what I gather, she's mainly talking about this first
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  Speaker 1: in the Bible Tewod Corinthians twelve. But she's kind of
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: like repeating phrases and mainly talking about how it's okay
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  Speaker 1: to have suffering in your life and sometimes being a
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  Speaker 1: servant of God means that you're going to encounter hardships.
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  Speaker 1: But what strikes me about her sermon is that, like
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  Speaker 1: it's so vague because we all encounter hardships. Yeah, it's
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: very vague. Yeah, it's like what is this about? Yeah,
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  Speaker 1: And there's nothing, at least in the clips on YouTube
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  Speaker 1: that you would hear that would be alarming. It feels like, Okay,
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  Speaker 1: you're talking about this verse in the Bible. Cool. You know,
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  Speaker 1: this is a little bit of a pivot. But it
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  Speaker 1: made me think about sharl Ruthven, who we've talked about
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  Speaker 1: before on this podcast. You and I did a season
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: about Cheryl Ruthven on a previous podcast. She was this
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  Speaker 1: leader of a high control group who started off as
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  Speaker 1: a Christian pastor even though she didn't have training in it.
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  Speaker 1: And then we followed her group as it devolved into
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  Speaker 1: just basically the doctrine being whatever she said went.
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  Speaker 2: But it started like this, this grassroots movement, a church
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  Speaker 2: splitting off. I don't know if that happens here, but
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  Speaker 2: you know, Cheryl took this small group. They held their
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  Speaker 2: meeting sermons in houses and rooms.
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  Speaker 1: Kind of like this very small sort of conference room
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  Speaker 1: looking spaces.
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  Speaker 3: It was a very tight knit community feel.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, and very Christian or at least the member's thoughts
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  Speaker 1: right right at first. But we had tapes of her
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  Speaker 1: preaching Cheryl Ruthvenn that we listened to when we were
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  Speaker 1: making that, and again it was just like very hard
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  Speaker 1: to understand what she was saying. Yeah, it was more
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  Speaker 1: about a vibe than like actually taking in some kind
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  Speaker 1: of teaching or lesson.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: I remember listening to those and after spending you know,
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  Speaker 2: money months speaking with former followers, people who knew her,
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  Speaker 2: you know, sort of understanding it as Okay, she's giving
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  Speaker 2: me sermons that are really difficult to understand and follow.
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  Speaker 2: But maybe the point was that it's like I can
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: understand them, so try to keep up. It's almost like
• 18:07
  Speaker 2: I'm going to keep your head spinning so fasty about
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: what's going on.
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I do remember people saying that, or people flat
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: out admitting like I had no idea what she was
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: talking about, but it felt like she knew what she
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: was talking about. Yeah, and that is maybe even more important.
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: And they still felt like they were there with this
• 18:24
  Speaker 2: common goal, right, you know, a shared belief system and
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: building a community where they could all lean on that
• 18:30
  Speaker 2: together and learn more about it, which is you know,
• 18:34
  Speaker 2: I could see how that would be appealing to people. Yeah, totally,
• 18:38
  Speaker 2: Cheryl Ruthven vibes.
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: So there is a podcast that exists out there, ifyone
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: listened to it or I also want to shout out
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: that there was an episode that I worked on. It's
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: a docuseries called The Curious Case of with Beth Carris,
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: and the episode is called The Doomsday Cat Called. So
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: if you don't want to listen to that previous podcast
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: we did, but you're interested in show Ruthven, you can
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: go to check that. I just watched the docu Sries,
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: watch the docu Seres. Yeah, that was my first pitch
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: as an associate producer. It was a really good story.
• 19:08
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, So it's interesting to sort of compare them. They're
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: very different groups, but they did kind of start similarly.
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: And the feeling I got of listening and watching this
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: YouTube of you know, Prophetess Catherine or Cat was similar
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: in that, like, I'm not really getting a specific message,
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: but I feel like it's interesting. She feels like an
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: authority figure and there's a vibe to it to where
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: I could see how if I came to that church.
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: I loved the music. I was like, this is cool.
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: I like the people here. There's nothing that would turn
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: me away from coming back. You know. There was one
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: funny thing to note is that, you know, some modern
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: interpretations of that verse that she was talking about, it's
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: actually interpreted as a warning sign against false prophets or teachers.
• 19:56
  Speaker 3: Yikes.
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: So that was sort of a fun little irony.
• 20:00
  Speaker 3: Oops. Oops.
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: And so she is one half of this leadership, right.
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: So the second half is Darryl Music Martin pastor Music
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: Senior Pastor, and there is also a sermon from him
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: on YouTube from twenty seventeen. He's much more charismatic. He
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: seems clearly a very good public speaker and he's able
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: to get the crowd sort of into the teaching and
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: amp up the energy of the room.
• 20:29
  Speaker 2: He's the personality higher of the group.
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: I mean, he's like, if you really think about it,
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: if you're up there giving a sermon and you're trying
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: to get people to come to your church and get
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: into it, like you need someone who's going to give
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: an exciting presentation that people can feel good about.
• 20:46
  Speaker 2: Right right, We've learned charisma will get you a long way.
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: A long way, and he seems to be much more
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: charismatic based on these clips to me than Kat and
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: his message. You know, I don't know honestly. Listening to
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: the clip on YouTube, the message is pretty positive. It's
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: like about redemption, it's about living a good life. It's
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: about God's ability to free you from your sin and suffering.
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: So you know whether or not that specific message resonates
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: with you. I think that it's easy to see how
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: it feels positive to people and would resonate with a
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: lot of people. Again, the video doesn't have anything alarming
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: in it. His message seems to be generally positive, uplifting,
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: kind of like this promise that if you follow God,
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: your life will get better. It's also again very vague,
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: and it's the thing that they put online, so I
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: don't know what the rest of the sermon is, like
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: you know, right, like why wouldn't they release the whole sermon?
• 21:43
  Speaker 2: And also I wonder do they talk about on their
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: website what their actual education is in theology or ministry
• 21:53
  Speaker 2: or any of that.
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: No, not that I saw. They did have an about
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: page which basically talked about what they believed in as
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: a church, which was pretty standard, not that alarming to me.
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: And then there was a lot of like verses that
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: they had highlighted so their self taught. Yeah, there was
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: no education section, okay, And I don't know if that
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: is like normal, I don't mean this website. Actually, it's
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: a good question. I know that a lot of church
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: websites they do have something about their doctrine on there,
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: so that you know, if you're again you're looking it
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: up to go see if you want to know if
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: you align with what they're teaching. But I don't know
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: about like education of their leaders, but probably it would
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: be a helpful thing to.
• 22:36
  Speaker 3: Have, Yeah, I would like to know.
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And so the main takeaway for me of watching
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: Senior pastor music is that he's very charismatic. He's able
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: to get the crowd very amped up. You hear people
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: like applauding when he's talking. He's much more charismatic than
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: prophetis cat.
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: There are many reasons why people go to church or
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: seek out community in general, but you know, feeling good
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: and feeling the energy of a room, I get that.
• 23:06
  Speaker 2: I think anybody could understand why that would be like
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: magnetic or make you want to come back. Yeah, not
• 23:12
  Speaker 2: everybody can rally a group of people to feel that way.
• 23:15
  Speaker 2: That's a special skill, it.
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: Really is, and probably much more exciting than having someone
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: give like some very dry talk.
• 23:24
  Speaker 3: Oh yeah.
• 23:24
  Speaker 2: I remember going to church with a friend of mine
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: elementary school and just immediately being like I just got
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: so sleepy, like fighting your eyes up and totally I
• 23:34
  Speaker 2: remember being like I was promised donuts, stay awake, stay awake.
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: And probably a lot of people have had that experience. Yes,
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: And so if you go to a church where you're
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: super amped up, I mean that's totally different.
• 23:47
  Speaker 3: Right, totally different.
• 23:48
  Speaker 2: I actually went with a friend of mine when I
• 23:50
  Speaker 2: was in college at WSU to a church like that,
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: a huge church with this big band and people dancing.
• 23:57
  Speaker 3: And I was like, okay, cool, Like I can't get
• 24:00
  Speaker 3: to this. Did you go back? I sho didn't, but
• 24:03
  Speaker 3: you know, power to them.
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, So I guess to wrap all of this up,
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: you know, kind of given us an idea of what
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: kind of group this was. And at first I thought, okay,
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: so these videos are from twenty seventeen, so my head
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: went to maybe this was kind of a standard, small,
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: charismatic Christian church at that time, and then things got weird.
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: But one of the deaths that they're currently being charged
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: with had already happened back in twenty ten. Now they
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: hadn't been charged yet. They wouldn't be charged until twenty
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: twenty five. But that makes all of this feel so
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: much eaerier, like Wow, someone's actually already died on their watch.
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: What's been coming out over the last six months is
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: that this group was not a typical church. So along
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: with the investigation, there actually have also been former members
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: that have left and now are coming out and speaking
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: publicly for the first time, and there are a lot
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: of allegations of abuse. There's a former member named Anthony
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: Durant who spoke with ABC seven. I tried to get
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: a hold of him, looked for him, didn't get an answer.
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: But his story is that he was in the group
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: for four years before escaping, and he said, you don't
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: mess with the pastors or your whole life would be over.
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: He also said they didn't believe in doctors or medicine.
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: The only thing that they would do when you were
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: hurt or sick was pray for you. So Anthony and
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: his family joined the group in twenty sixteen, and he
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: described the services that there was also a lot of
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: dancing and music and speaking in tongues, and he even said,
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: you know, at times he would get goosebumps and sort
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: of feel like this electricity in the air, and that
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: there was a feeling that it was exciting and that
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: there was something spiritual happening there.
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and can you for me or anyone listening who's
• 26:07
  Speaker 2: not as familiar with like what it means to speak
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: in tongues, like what is that?
• 26:12
  Speaker 3: Yeah?
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: I won't have like a theological answer, but it's essentially
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: the idea that you're being touched by God or one
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: faction of God, the Holy Spirit, and that is happening
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: to you, and so you're sort of being overtaken by
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: this experience, and words are coming out of your mouth
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: that are sort of like spiritual prayers of a different language,
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: an unknown or non existent language.
• 26:43
  Speaker 2: So it wouldn't be like transcribable to something, no, yeah, okay.
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: And like some places believe that everyone has their own
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: unique sort of tongue that's given to them by God. Yeah,
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: it would be people. Usually like in a church service,
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: there would be like a worship session with music and
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: then there's a sermon afterward.
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, I'm picturing like when I've seen this, I
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: think in either documentaries or in films, is at that
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: moment when like sometimes someone's being surrounded by people touching
• 27:12
  Speaker 2: their shoulder and speaking really quickly to them. Yeah, in
• 27:16
  Speaker 2: like an intense prayer. Yeah yeah, and the words don't
• 27:19
  Speaker 2: make sense okay. And there's all different manifestations of what
• 27:24
  Speaker 2: it would look like to be like touched by the
• 27:26
  Speaker 2: Holy Spirit.
• 27:27
  Speaker 3: I don't know.
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: I'm assuming that this is like, yeah, this is like
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: a charismatic evangelical or started that way and then became
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: this other thing. So it could be shaking, falling over, yeah,
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: speaking in tongues, dancing, It can get very lively it's
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: almost like the feeling of if you're like almost like
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: in a mosh pit or something. I mean, not a
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: mashpit where you're shoved up against people, but that feeling
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: if you've ever been at a concert that's so exciting.
• 27:53
  Speaker 3: It's like this collective energy.
• 27:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, and everyone is sort of like has the
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: same purpose and the same goal, very like community building.
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: But it's all obviously like supported by the leaders of
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: this church who sort of lead the way. But it's
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: pretty clear that things that like really go off the
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: rails at some point. So there's multiple Facebook pages associated
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: with the church website, so I know that they are
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: connected to this group His Way spirit Led Assemblies. So
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: there's a Facebook page associated with this group and this
• 28:30
  Speaker 1: user Cat Martin Prophetess Cat. They're a post about her
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: a lot in twenty nineteen, and I don't know who's
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: running the Facebook group. The posts on this page make
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: me think that sometime between twenty seventeen and twenty nineteen,
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: she stopped going by Catherine and she starts going by Cat,
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: And I don't know if she's running the page or
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: if maybe someone else's. I would guess maybe someone else
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: only because this Facebook page is so reminiscent to me
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: of like the previous cult like groups have covered and
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: their presence on Facebook, and it's usually someone who is
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: like a faithful follower of the leader creates a page
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: that's sort of there to talk about all the good
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: things that they're doing and all the miracles they're performing,
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: and it's constantly posting and updating about all the cool
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: stuff they're doing. Right, that's what it feels like what
• 29:20
  Speaker 1: this is. Okay, But there is a post on here
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: by Kat Martin and I want to read it because
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: I think it's interesting, and it says written to us
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: by an eyewitness in the crowd. So basically it seems
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: like she's saying, someone came to our service and this
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: is the thing that they wrote, and I want to
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: post it on here. They say, it felt like a
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: movement seeing all the people gathered around this humble black
• 29:45
  Speaker 1: man crying as he spoke about Jesus. Different colors, different races,
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: mostly whites. The cars driving by were stopping honking, some
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: were getting out and joining in. Everyone was hugging and
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: praising the Lord. Hashtag remnant, hashtag our season, hashtag his Way,
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: spirit led assemblies hashtag and time.
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: A testimonial with so many relevant hashtags, right, that's lucky.
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: And the mentions about the ethnicity was like, what is
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: happening here? I mean, so Kat is white and her
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: husband Darryl is black, and from what I gathered looking
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: at their website as well as the Facebook, and it
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: just seems like they did have a very diverse crowd.
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: I'm not really sure why that had to be mentioned
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: unless she was trying to sort of advertise like we're diverse, Like,
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: I don't know, but it seems like she's really trying
• 30:37
  Speaker 1: to promote like, look, how cool this movement is.
• 30:40
  Speaker 2: Right, and is this really something someone wrote in Kat?
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: I know we have to question.
• 30:45
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: So it seems like over the years she grew more
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: into this godlike figure. So there's still senior pastor, but
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: she really takes center stage from what I can tell,
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: and it becomes like she is hearing the voice of
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: God directly and whatever she says is what God says.
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: You know. There's another page beyond the Talk and onto
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: the Encounter that mentions mostly her and it's all about
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: this book that she's writing called Whirlwind and the Holy Spirit.
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: The cover has like a tornado image on it.
• 31:19
  Speaker 2: It's interesting because you know, I actually didn't grow up
• 31:22
  Speaker 2: attending church, but there's this line that church leaders really
• 31:29
  Speaker 2: have to walk, where you're this trusted communicator of the
• 31:34
  Speaker 2: religion but not overstepping to be this like there's the
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: congregation members and then me and then.
• 31:44
  Speaker 1: And then God. And then when does that line become
• 31:47
  Speaker 1: blurred where it's actually I am God?
• 31:51
  Speaker 3: Right? And it happens so much.
• 31:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it seems like it happens a lot when we
• 31:56
  Speaker 2: hear about demanding people's incomes.
• 31:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And I mean, like I can imagine that when
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: you have the stage and you're giving these sermons and
• 32:07
  Speaker 1: everyone is giving you all this feedback of like this
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: is amazing, this is changing my life. It's probably a
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: power trip and you start to feel like, yes, I
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: am so important and maybe I am like special. Yeah,
• 32:21
  Speaker 1: it's clear that by twenty nineteen it's gone very far.
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: A lot of the posts are about Prophetess cat and
• 32:28
  Speaker 1: all of her miracles. There's one about talking about them
• 32:32
  Speaker 1: worshiping on a peer and that God visually appears in
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: the clouds above her. And there's another post that says, quote,
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: we are chronicling twenty six years of ministry, not church
• 32:43
  Speaker 1: as usual. Since the inception of our church, we have
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: had five resurrections from the dead. Wow, many various illnesses,
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: sicknesses and diseases healed.
• 32:53
  Speaker 2: Those are big claims, big claims, especially since you've mentioned
• 32:57
  Speaker 2: a little bit about their aversion to medical doctors.
• 33:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so you can really see how there seems to
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: be this trend that it's just about the power of
• 33:07
  Speaker 1: healing in prayer, and that there's a belief that Kat
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: can heal people and race people from the dead.
• 33:12
  Speaker 2: Right, which would make her more than someone who's just
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: communicating you know, maybe the beliefs of a shared religion.
• 33:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah, there's also like mention of when they're painting the church,
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: Jesus's face appears in the paint. There's a photo of
• 33:26
  Speaker 1: Kat and senior pastor and there's kind of like a
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: glare on the photo. You know sometimes that happens, and
• 33:32
  Speaker 1: that this is interpreted as like angelic presences, right, and
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: stuff like that. It's a lot of things like that.
• 33:38
  Speaker 1: So there's another former member who has spoken out, and
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: this is where we really start to hear about some
• 33:45
  Speaker 1: of the abuse allocations. Okay, her name is Breebird. I
• 33:48
  Speaker 1: also tried to contact her and was not able to.
• 33:52
  Speaker 1: She spoke to KTLA five and what she shared is
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: really horrifying. She described a total environment of control. She
• 34:01
  Speaker 1: said that sometimes the church services would go all night,
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: and that Prophetess Cat was viewed as God herself. She
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: claimed that God spoke through her and she would do
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: this performative thing, seizing and talking in accents, and you
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: know when God was supposed to be talking directly through her.
• 34:20
  Speaker 2: So much like Cheryl Ruthven with the Italian bit.
• 34:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, when she claimed to be speaking Italian, it's clearly not.
• 34:29
  Speaker 2: And also just to be up all night means sleep deprivation,
• 34:32
  Speaker 2: derivations like will make you feel out of your mind.
• 34:36
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 34:36
  Speaker 1: Another former member said, you know, they were taught Cat
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: could perform miracles.
• 34:41
  Speaker 3: Quote.
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: She would say she could impregnate women who couldn't be pregnant,
• 34:44
  Speaker 1: she could heal the blind. This person also said you
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: had to do as Prophetess Cat said, otherwise you would
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: be yelled at, hit or starved. Oh, physical abuse. Yeah,
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: sometime around then, I don't know exactly when. Prophetest Cat
• 34:59
  Speaker 1: also gets very into the end Times shocker and hangs
• 35:03
  Speaker 1: it over everyone's head, telling them that if they obey
• 35:06
  Speaker 1: the rules, if they obey her, they won't be saved
• 35:09
  Speaker 1: in the end times, because clearly she hasn't end with
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: God she's going to be saved, and so there's all
• 35:14
  Speaker 1: this fear also instilled. You can't leave otherwise you're going
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: to jeopardize the state of your soul.
• 35:20
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: You know, they were at some point restricted from having
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: contact with outsiders, so it starts to become very insular.
• 35:27
  Speaker 3: Breed.
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: Bird says that she was really young when her family joined,
• 35:30
  Speaker 1: and this is like a really sad part of this
• 35:32
  Speaker 1: is that there are a bunch of children involved in
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: this because their families joined and their children so they're
• 35:38
  Speaker 1: growing up in this environment. And she says her childhood
• 35:42
  Speaker 1: was robbed for her. I mean, this is really horrible.
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: She said, quote, I was raped by somebody. He was
• 35:49
  Speaker 1: eighteen at the time, and that happened from when I
• 35:51
  Speaker 1: was ten until when I was thirteen. She goes on
• 35:54
  Speaker 1: to say that she actually told Prophetess Kat about the
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: rape and about the sexual abuse, and that Kat punched
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: her in the face and called her a liar.
• 36:05
  Speaker 2: You know, I think for anyone with any like semblance
• 36:09
  Speaker 2: of like morality, that they're trying to live by it's
• 36:14
  Speaker 2: so hard to imagine would someone really do that? Would
• 36:17
  Speaker 2: a woman really do that to a girl? And like
• 36:21
  Speaker 2: time and time again we see the answer is yes,
• 36:23
  Speaker 2: and these things do happen. And if bree Bird was
• 36:27
  Speaker 2: brought into this cult like group as a child, then
• 36:32
  Speaker 2: you know, I'm inclined to believe her parents were develop
• 36:35
  Speaker 2: followers of this person.
• 36:37
  Speaker 1: And who can you go to then? Yeah, no one,
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: no one. And also you have to imagine, once you've
• 36:44
  Speaker 1: created this group where you're a god, any threat to
• 36:48
  Speaker 1: that group would be a threat to this whole thing
• 36:52
  Speaker 1: you've built, right and your income, which we'll talk more about.
• 36:56
  Speaker 1: And so there's a lot of impetus to like deny
• 37:00
  Speaker 1: any allegations.
• 37:02
  Speaker 2: Right, And how do we do that? And how do
• 37:04
  Speaker 2: we see people doing that by punishing victims for trying
• 37:08
  Speaker 2: to speak out.
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: Anytime you have like a group that is more interested
• 37:13
  Speaker 1: in protecting the institution than human beings, it's like a
• 37:17
  Speaker 1: real red flag that something might have gone wrong.
• 37:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, yeah, and like usually there's an incentive
• 37:24
  Speaker 2: of money.
• 37:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And so part of this what they would do
• 37:28
  Speaker 1: is children were sometimes separated from their parents and raised
• 37:32
  Speaker 1: in group homes that were like owned by the church
• 37:34
  Speaker 1: or by the church elders.
• 37:36
  Speaker 3: Oh wow.
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: The group owned multiple houses and sometimes members would be
• 37:42
  Speaker 1: told to go live there in groups.
• 37:44
  Speaker 2: And that just tells you what a stronghold this church
• 37:47
  Speaker 2: had over these parents. I mean, not to excuse someone's
• 37:52
  Speaker 2: responsibility to their child, you know, but like, wow, unfathomable.
• 37:57
  Speaker 2: I think to most people caring for children, to put
• 38:02
  Speaker 2: them in a home where they're not, you know, with them.
• 38:05
  Speaker 1: Every day, separate them from their children the parents.
• 38:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I can't imagine like a much worse
• 38:12
  Speaker 2: fate in life than not having my kid home.
• 38:15
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's horrible. Yeah.
• 38:17
  Speaker 1: So Bree lives in one of those homes. I don't
• 38:20
  Speaker 1: know how old she was when she went to live there,
• 38:23
  Speaker 1: but you know, these are her allegations. She said that
• 38:26
  Speaker 1: she tried to escape unsuccessfully and would be severely punished,
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: locked in her room, beaten physically with about verbally abused.
• 38:37
  Speaker 1: She said there was a two ish month period in
• 38:39
  Speaker 1: which she was only given one piece of bread a
• 38:41
  Speaker 1: day and one glass of water, So we're talking about starvation.
• 38:47
  Speaker 1: And she finally escaped at age fifteen. Wow, Yeah, and
• 38:50
  Speaker 1: got out. She probably saved her own life doing that.
• 38:55
  Speaker 1: I mean, probably has a lot of stuff to work through.
• 38:57
  Speaker 3: Yeah. How old does she know? I don't know.
• 38:59
  Speaker 1: Act wasn't able to find that out, but good for
• 39:03
  Speaker 1: her for speaking out.
• 39:06
  Speaker 3: It can't be easy. Yeah.
• 39:08
  Speaker 1: So another former member who wasn't named, said that young
• 39:11
  Speaker 1: girls were forced to marry much older men and this
• 39:14
  Speaker 1: was justified by this is what God is telling us
• 39:16
  Speaker 1: to do.
• 39:17
  Speaker 3: Gross. Gross. Yeah.
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: This group ran a company called full Shield Incorporated. Okay,
• 39:33
  Speaker 1: it was a pest control company operated by the organization
• 39:37
  Speaker 1: and according to a former member, allegedly the function of
• 39:40
  Speaker 1: it was to financially support senior pastor and Prophetess Cat.
• 39:45
  Speaker 1: Former member Anthony Dran said he was forced to work
• 39:48
  Speaker 1: for full Shield and was paid twelve dollars an hour,
• 39:51
  Speaker 1: but he wasn't allowed to look for work anywhere else.
• 39:54
  Speaker 3: You know.
• 39:54
  Speaker 1: At one point he came and said, I need to
• 39:56
  Speaker 1: make more money than this, so I want to go
• 39:58
  Speaker 1: find a different job. And he says he alleges that
• 40:01
  Speaker 1: he was told that you know, he's living in housing
• 40:04
  Speaker 1: that is owned by the organization and that they're supporting
• 40:08
  Speaker 1: his needs, that he shouldn't want anything more, and that
• 40:12
  Speaker 1: he shouldn't want to make any more money than that.
• 40:14
  Speaker 1: He also said that at one point he and his
• 40:16
  Speaker 1: family were forced to do what he called a forty
• 40:18
  Speaker 1: five day consecration inside their home, in which they were
• 40:22
  Speaker 1: only allowed to eat, sleep, and prey, so they couldn't
• 40:25
  Speaker 1: have any electronics or their phone. They couldn't leave their
• 40:27
  Speaker 1: house or like talk to anyone outside of it. So
• 40:30
  Speaker 1: this is sort of this isolation tactic.
• 40:33
  Speaker 2: I mean, it's almost free labor for them, and then
• 40:37
  Speaker 2: you're isolating him and his family from the outside world
• 40:42
  Speaker 2: where they might see that most people are not living
• 40:45
  Speaker 2: this way. Yeah, I mean that's telltale signs of a
• 40:50
  Speaker 2: cult like organization, sure is. But you know, when you're
• 40:53
  Speaker 2: on the inside and you've been convinced that someone is
• 40:56
  Speaker 2: you know, will bring you closer to God into salvation,
• 41:00
  Speaker 2: and it can really have a hold on people.
• 41:03
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 41:03
  Speaker 1: And Anthony, I think he was like a miner when
• 41:06
  Speaker 1: his family joined and then became an adult and eventually
• 41:11
  Speaker 1: did leave. He escaped in twenty nineteen, but his parents
• 41:14
  Speaker 1: were in it, and like, how do you decipher what's
• 41:19
  Speaker 1: wrong when your parents are going along with this too.
• 41:22
  Speaker 1: It's going to be really hard.
• 41:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And you know, I don't know if you found
• 41:25
  Speaker 2: anything about this. But a lot of times we see, Okay,
• 41:29
  Speaker 2: well if you leave, your parents aren't going to talk
• 41:30
  Speaker 2: to you.
• 41:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think that's that has been the case.
• 41:35
  Speaker 1: He said that at one point, prophetis Cat threatened him directly.
• 41:38
  Speaker 1: I don't know what led to this, He alleges she
• 41:41
  Speaker 1: said to him if he turned his back to his
• 41:44
  Speaker 1: old ways, she would have his head. Now, this could
• 41:48
  Speaker 1: just be a random threat, but like what comes later?
• 41:50
  Speaker 1: Actually these threats are I have to wonder, like how
• 41:53
  Speaker 1: serious was this? You know? He told ABC seven that honestly,
• 41:57
  Speaker 1: I would call it a cult. They won't let you leave,
• 42:00
  Speaker 1: and you can't have any thoughts for yourself or make
• 42:02
  Speaker 1: decisions for yourself. It's based on what the pastors tell you.
• 42:05
  Speaker 1: And if you don't listen to the pastors, there are repercussions.
• 42:09
  Speaker 1: They will make your life literally a living hell. He
• 42:12
  Speaker 1: has been out of the group for six years. His
• 42:14
  Speaker 1: dad and his sister eventually left, but his mom is
• 42:17
  Speaker 1: still in it. And he was like tearing up, it's
• 42:19
  Speaker 1: so sad in the interview, like he hasn't talked to
• 42:21
  Speaker 1: his mom since it.
• 42:23
  Speaker 3: Yeah, Wow, that is so sad.
• 42:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And so he was forced to work for this
• 42:28
  Speaker 1: pest control company Full Shield, which now it's been reported,
• 42:32
  Speaker 1: is called Max Guard, although I called the number for
• 42:35
  Speaker 1: Maxguard hoping to confirm this, and no one answered, So
• 42:39
  Speaker 1: stay tuned. Yeah, so you know, all of this is
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: sort of background about the group and what former members
• 42:45
  Speaker 1: have come out and alleged the abuses that were happening
• 42:49
  Speaker 1: were This leads us to twenty twenty five, when, like
• 42:52
  Speaker 1: everything comes together, leaders of His Waye Spirit led Assemblies
• 42:57
  Speaker 1: were arrested and charged with murder. That means Kat and
• 43:00
  Speaker 1: senior pastor Darryl Darryl Shelley Martin and Daryl Martin are
• 43:05
  Speaker 1: their legal names.
• 43:06
  Speaker 2: Right, Okay, and they're both arrested in twenty twenty five
• 43:08
  Speaker 2: for murder.
• 43:09
  Speaker 3: And charge with Martyriash with murder. Wow.
• 43:12
  Speaker 1: And there's other people that are arrested too, with different charges,
• 43:14
  Speaker 1: including illegal weapon ownership. But these are for two different cases,
• 43:21
  Speaker 1: so I'll take you through them. The first is for
• 43:23
  Speaker 1: a death that happened in twenty ten, oh a long time,
• 43:26
  Speaker 1: a long time ago, So it took fifteen years for
• 43:29
  Speaker 1: authorities to make an arrest for this, and you'll see why.
• 43:32
  Speaker 1: So this is the death of Timothy Thomas or Timo.
• 43:36
  Speaker 1: He was a four year old kid. Four years old,
• 43:40
  Speaker 1: and I found a media release from January sixteenth, twenty ten,
• 43:44
  Speaker 1: by the Colton Police Department about his death. It says,
• 43:47
  Speaker 1: quote in January twenty ten, the Colton Police Department investigated
• 43:51
  Speaker 1: the death of a four year old child. The child
• 43:53
  Speaker 1: was identified as four year old Timothy Thomas of Colton, California.
• 43:57
  Speaker 1: At the time of his death, temporary custody of Timothy
• 44:01
  Speaker 1: Thomas had been signed over from his birth parents to
• 44:04
  Speaker 1: the leaders of his Way spirit led assemblies, so they
• 44:08
  Speaker 1: had signed over custody. The Colton Police Department did investigate
• 44:13
  Speaker 1: his death, and it's noted that they alleged that there
• 44:17
  Speaker 1: was child neglect that led to the death and wanted
• 44:20
  Speaker 1: there to be charges filed, but the DA's office never
• 44:24
  Speaker 1: ended up pursuing charges. Not totally clear why there was. Something.
• 44:28
  Speaker 1: I read that when they interviewed different members and people
• 44:32
  Speaker 1: that have been around members of the group they're protecting,
• 44:36
  Speaker 1: they're protecting, their stories weren't helpful and it probably just
• 44:39
  Speaker 1: felt like there wasn't enough evidence. But basically what we
• 44:43
  Speaker 1: know is that Timo's death was ruled natural as a
• 44:47
  Speaker 1: result of an appendicitis.
• 44:48
  Speaker 2: Rupture, which you know from what you've told me that
• 44:52
  Speaker 2: you've learned about their aversion to medical doctors is just like,
• 44:57
  Speaker 2: I mean, you can't imagine not seeking medical care for
• 45:00
  Speaker 2: a child in my care that's hurting. Yeah, I mean,
• 45:06
  Speaker 2: to even watch your kid hurting if you've seen a
• 45:09
  Speaker 2: doctor and they've sent you home is hard.
• 45:12
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 45:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's unbelievably said. Yeah, so we obviously don't know
• 45:18
  Speaker 1: exactly what went down. I'm sure that will come to light,
• 45:21
  Speaker 1: you know, if this goes to trial, But knowing that
• 45:24
  Speaker 1: they had an aversion to seek medical care, you know,
• 45:27
  Speaker 1: you have to wonder.
• 45:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and I wonder did you see anything about this
• 45:33
  Speaker 2: child's biological parents and their sort of relationship with his
• 45:38
  Speaker 2: way spirit led assemblies after his death?
• 45:42
  Speaker 1: I don't know that, although I'll tell you why this
• 45:46
  Speaker 1: ends up finally being charged in twenty twenty five because
• 45:50
  Speaker 1: the case it went cold and then when this other
• 45:53
  Speaker 1: incident happened, which we'll talk about, it was reopened in
• 45:56
  Speaker 1: twenty twenty five and Shelly Martin, Darryl Martin and a
• 46:00
  Speaker 1: for it, says former group member. So it's a good
• 46:03
  Speaker 1: question Andre Thomas were arrested for their involvement in four
• 46:08
  Speaker 1: year old Timothy Thomas's death because he has the same
• 46:11
  Speaker 1: last name as Timothy Thomas. I don't know the relation,
• 46:13
  Speaker 1: but you have to wonder is this his parent, yeah,
• 46:16
  Speaker 1: birth parent, right or a relative or a relative?
• 46:19
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 46:19
  Speaker 1: So the case when cold, but then it was reopened
• 46:23
  Speaker 1: because of a person who went missing. So this brings
• 46:27
  Speaker 1: us to the disappearance of Emilio Salem Gannam. He was
• 46:32
  Speaker 1: forty years old and he was last seen in twenty
• 46:35
  Speaker 1: twenty three. Investigators have said that Emilio left his Way
• 46:39
  Speaker 1: spirit Led Assemblies in April of twenty twenty three, just
• 46:43
  Speaker 1: months before he disappeared. Left the group like I'm no
• 46:46
  Speaker 1: longer a member.
• 46:46
  Speaker 3: Yeah, okay.
• 46:48
  Speaker 1: So according to Elie Times, Emilio joined his Way spirit
• 46:51
  Speaker 1: Led Assemblies around the year two thousand and he helped
• 46:55
  Speaker 1: launch that pest control business, full Shield Incorporated. So this
• 46:59
  Speaker 1: is a person who knows a lot about this group. Yeah,
• 47:02
  Speaker 1: in their organization, he was there for like twenty three years. Yeah,
• 47:07
  Speaker 1: we don't know why he left. In April of twenty
• 47:09
  Speaker 1: twenty three, he did leave his Way spirit Led Assemblies
• 47:12
  Speaker 1: and he moved to Nashville to apparently be closer to family,
• 47:16
  Speaker 1: and it was in Nashville that he started his own
• 47:18
  Speaker 1: pest control company. So that makes me wonder if he
• 47:23
  Speaker 1: was involved in running full Shield Incorporated, and like realized
• 47:26
  Speaker 1: he could make more money. He could run this company
• 47:29
  Speaker 1: and like make more money.
• 47:30
  Speaker 3: I have no idea.
• 47:30
  Speaker 1: That's total speculation. But he clearly knew how to run
• 47:34
  Speaker 1: a past control company and maybe did see how much
• 47:37
  Speaker 1: money they were making. Yeah, yeah, you have to wonder.
• 47:39
  Speaker 1: So he moves to Nashville, he starts his own pest
• 47:41
  Speaker 1: control company. The problem arises when he comes back to California,
• 47:46
  Speaker 1: back to the Inland Empire in May of twenty twenty three.
• 47:50
  Speaker 1: According to the La Times, he returned to reconnect with
• 47:54
  Speaker 1: former clients. Okay, And I saw another outlet that said
• 47:59
  Speaker 1: he had returned to start like a second branch of
• 48:03
  Speaker 1: this pest control company. But I couldn't confirm that, so
• 48:06
  Speaker 1: I don't know exactly.
• 48:08
  Speaker 2: And so he leaves the church in April twenty twenty three,
• 48:12
  Speaker 2: moves to Tennessee, comes back to the Inland Empire area,
• 48:16
  Speaker 2: and reconnects with past clients of the past control past
• 48:22
  Speaker 2: control company in May. So just a few months later, yeah.
• 48:24
  Speaker 1: Okay, And on May eighth, twenty twenty three, he was
• 48:28
  Speaker 1: served with a cease and desist letter from Full Shield Slash,
• 48:33
  Speaker 1: the group accusing him of trying to steal their clients.
• 48:37
  Speaker 1: Seventeen days after that, he disappeared. And he was in
• 48:41
  Speaker 1: the Inland Empire when he disappeared. Yes, he was still
• 48:44
  Speaker 1: in the Inland Empire. He was last seen at Starbucks
• 48:47
  Speaker 1: in the six hundred block of Redlands Boulevard in Redlands, California,
• 48:52
  Speaker 1: on May twenty fifth, twenty twenty three. His family last
• 48:56
  Speaker 1: heard from him at six forty pm that same day
• 48:58
  Speaker 1: by phone, So you have to imagine he had reconnected
• 49:01
  Speaker 1: with his family, so they were in touch with them.
• 49:04
  Speaker 1: He was driving a white Nissan Frontier pickup truck with
• 49:07
  Speaker 1: a California license plate, which was a rental car.
• 49:10
  Speaker 2: Redlands, California is in the Inland Empire.
• 49:12
  Speaker 3: It is okay.
• 49:13
  Speaker 2: I pictured it as like more North, but I think
• 49:15
  Speaker 2: I'm confusing with reading okay. So Redlands and his family
• 49:19
  Speaker 2: are they members of.
• 49:20
  Speaker 1: I don't think his family were members. I don't know
• 49:22
  Speaker 1: for sure, but it's said that he moved back to Nashville,
• 49:25
  Speaker 1: Tennessee and reconnected with his family. I see, okay, So
• 49:29
  Speaker 1: I wonder if he hadn't talked to his family in
• 49:31
  Speaker 1: a long time. Yeah, good point, and then he reconnected
• 49:33
  Speaker 1: with them, but then he goes back to the Inland
• 49:35
  Speaker 1: Empire for some reason. So that's in May. In August
• 49:39
  Speaker 1: of twenty twenty three, the truck was located in the
• 49:42
  Speaker 1: Mahabi Desert. One source said it had been burned and
• 49:47
  Speaker 1: his body was not found in the truck, so it
• 49:49
  Speaker 1: was abandoned and burned. But I do think that investigators
• 49:53
  Speaker 1: found some evidence there because shortly after the Redlands PD
• 49:58
  Speaker 1: announced that they're treating this as a potential homicide case.
• 50:01
  Speaker 1: They got search warrants for the religious group's properties in
• 50:04
  Speaker 1: Hemet and Anza, which are both in the Inland Empire,
• 50:07
  Speaker 1: and they found several illegal firearms, including Quote converted fully
• 50:13
  Speaker 1: automatic rifles, short barreled rifles, and un serialized Quote ghost guns,
• 50:19
  Speaker 1: along with electronic devices and other digital evidence. According to police,
• 50:24
  Speaker 1: has he been found.
• 50:26
  Speaker 3: He has not.
• 50:26
  Speaker 1: Okay, it's interesting because he hasn't been found. But Shelley
• 50:31
  Speaker 1: Martin and a member named Rudy Marino were arrested for
• 50:34
  Speaker 1: their alleged involvement in the murder of Emilio Ganim is
• 50:39
  Speaker 1: what one outlet reported and like they have been charged
• 50:42
  Speaker 1: with murder. So I'm not totally sure how that works.
• 50:45
  Speaker 1: But obviously there's so much in the investigation that we
• 50:47
  Speaker 1: don't know and that won't be public until this is done.
• 50:51
  Speaker 1: But I do think that there's reason to believe that
• 50:53
  Speaker 1: he has been killed.
• 50:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know, this is all just happening as
• 50:58
  Speaker 2: of a few months ago this era. But so often
• 51:01
  Speaker 2: in cases like this, the defense will say, well, you know,
• 51:04
  Speaker 2: you haven't found him, so how can you even say
• 51:07
  Speaker 2: that he's dead. Yeah, but it sounds like he was,
• 51:10
  Speaker 2: you know, starting the next chapter of his life. He
• 51:12
  Speaker 2: had moved away, he had left this oppressive group, he
• 51:17
  Speaker 2: was starting this new business. I mean those are I mean,
• 51:21
  Speaker 2: to me, just a civilian like signs that someone is
• 51:26
  Speaker 2: energized and planting new roots.
• 51:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and like trying to create a life after he's
• 51:32
  Speaker 1: been in this high control group twenty three years. Yeah,
• 51:37
  Speaker 1: I'm probably not been able to save money or do
• 51:40
  Speaker 1: anything like that. So yeah, I mean, you know, we
• 51:42
  Speaker 1: don't actually know where he is or if he's alive.
• 51:45
  Speaker 1: If anyone has an information about Emilio Salem Gannam, his
• 51:49
  Speaker 1: disappearance or his whereabouts, they are urged to contact the
• 51:52
  Speaker 1: Redlands Police Detective Bureau. So all of these arrests happen
• 51:57
  Speaker 1: in December of twenty twenty five. Shelley Martin, kat former
• 52:01
  Speaker 1: member Andre Thomas, and Darryl Martin were all arrested for
• 52:05
  Speaker 1: their involvement in the twenty ten death of Timothy Thomas.
• 52:09
  Speaker 1: Shelley Martin and this member Rudy Morano were also arrested
• 52:13
  Speaker 1: for their alleged involvement in the murder of Emilio Gannon
• 52:16
  Speaker 1: and other various weapons charges. There's two other members who
• 52:19
  Speaker 1: were arrested on charges related to felons in possession of
• 52:23
  Speaker 1: firearms after they searched the homes that are owned by
• 52:27
  Speaker 1: this group. And it's also noted that at the time
• 52:30
  Speaker 1: of arrest, victim advocates from the DA Bureau of Victim
• 52:34
  Speaker 1: Services and the DA Crisis Response CA nine were present
• 52:38
  Speaker 1: to assist members of this high control group with food, water,
• 52:42
  Speaker 1: and contacts for additional resources. Oh so when they went in,
• 52:46
  Speaker 1: I don't know what they found in the houses, but
• 52:48
  Speaker 1: they went in ready to help people, right, which is cool.
• 52:52
  Speaker 3: I'm glad they did that. Yeah.
• 52:54
  Speaker 1: So these are the only cases that have been charged,
• 52:57
  Speaker 1: but there is another person who is missing. Oh no,
• 53:01
  Speaker 1: who was potentially connected. We don't know. There's no evidence
• 53:05
  Speaker 1: so far to show that his Waye Spirit Led Assemblies
• 53:08
  Speaker 1: is responsible for his disappearance, but you know, there are
• 53:12
  Speaker 1: some connections, and once all of this came out, investigators
• 53:16
  Speaker 1: shared information about him. He also was living in the
• 53:20
  Speaker 1: Inland Empire and was a member of this group. His
• 53:24
  Speaker 1: name is Reuben Moreno, who's forty one. He was lasting
• 53:28
  Speaker 1: in twenty seventeen at a home in Claremont, California. He
• 53:31
  Speaker 1: was living in a house with other members of his
• 53:36
  Speaker 1: Way Spirit Led Assemblies, so he was an active member
• 53:39
  Speaker 1: when he went yassing. So he hasn't actually been seen
• 53:42
  Speaker 1: since twenty seventeen. Do you know when he was reported
• 53:45
  Speaker 1: missing in twenty nineteen? Oh gosh, his family, Which makes
• 53:49
  Speaker 1: me wonder if he just hadn't been in contact with
• 53:52
  Speaker 1: his family for so long. They didn't know for two
• 53:54
  Speaker 1: years that he was missing, but eventually they realized he
• 53:59
  Speaker 1: was because they reported and missing in twenty nineteen.
• 54:03
  Speaker 2: Right, and then you have to ask, and I'm sure
• 54:05
  Speaker 2: investigators who have looked into his disappearance are asking, why
• 54:09
  Speaker 2: was he not reported missing earlier?
• 54:12
  Speaker 1: Why wasn't he reported missing by the people he was
• 54:14
  Speaker 1: living with.
• 54:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah right, yeah, I mean this is someone who has
• 54:19
  Speaker 2: I assume if they're a member of this very controlling,
• 54:23
  Speaker 2: cult like organization, I guess there's the possibility people leave
• 54:28
  Speaker 2: and they don't say anything because they're trying to escape.
• 54:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah, maybe that was the assumption. Maybe that was the assumption.
• 54:33
  Speaker 1: But also it's like you would think that people would
• 54:37
  Speaker 1: still be concerned for someone's well being. Yeah, either way,
• 54:41
  Speaker 1: it doesn't add up. And also, you know, this would
• 54:45
  Speaker 1: be the third suspicious death disappearance of someone connected to
• 54:50
  Speaker 1: this group, and usually there are no coincidences.
• 54:54
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 54:56
  Speaker 1: So, as far as we know that, police don't have
• 54:58
  Speaker 1: any leads on Ruben Moreno's whereabouts, but he is described
• 55:02
  Speaker 1: as a Hispanic man who is five feet six inches
• 55:06
  Speaker 1: tall and weighs one hundred and eighty pounds. He has
• 55:09
  Speaker 1: brown eyes and black hair. It says his family and
• 55:12
  Speaker 1: loved ones have not heard from him and are concerned
• 55:15
  Speaker 1: for his wellbeing. Anyone who knows Moreno's whereabouts or has
• 55:18
  Speaker 1: information on his disappearance is asked to call the Claremont
• 55:22
  Speaker 1: Police Department, and tips can be submitted anonymously.
• 55:26
  Speaker 3: Gosh, that is so sad.
• 55:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so I really hope that's able to be solved
• 55:31
  Speaker 1: and his family can get answers about where he is
• 55:35
  Speaker 1: and what's happened to him. The same with Amelia, And
• 55:38
  Speaker 1: so there's a lot that we don't know and that
• 55:42
  Speaker 1: hopefully we will find out if this goes to trial
• 55:46
  Speaker 1: or whatever happens with the case. But it's something that
• 55:49
  Speaker 1: I've been really interested in and want to follow along
• 55:51
  Speaker 1: as it happens, and so I decided to cover it today.
• 55:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah, thanks so much for doing that deep dive into it.
• 55:58
  Speaker 2: I had seen headlines about this, but I didn't know
• 56:01
  Speaker 2: much more than that. And you know, I think in
• 56:05
  Speaker 2: the media a lot of times these sort of cult
• 56:08
  Speaker 2: like deeply quote religious groups are in ultra rural settings
• 56:15
  Speaker 2: or in the Deep South, and you know, these groups
• 56:19
  Speaker 2: are everywhere everywhere.
• 56:20
  Speaker 1: This is a huge metropolitan area.
• 56:22
  Speaker 2: Right, This is a huge metropolitan area, and it's diverse,
• 56:26
  Speaker 2: and we need to believe people because these places are everywhere,
• 56:29
  Speaker 2: and they will take anyone who is willing to believe
• 56:32
  Speaker 2: what they're saying and pay them usually. I mean, I
• 56:35
  Speaker 2: don't know what's going on here, but it seems like
• 56:37
  Speaker 2: that's where this is going to lead. Yeah, I'm sure
• 56:39
  Speaker 2: we'll be following along and maybe we'll have an update
• 56:43
  Speaker 2: for listeners.
• 56:48
  Speaker 1: Okay, Psia, we're back. We're back. I actually have an
• 56:51
  Speaker 1: update for you.
• 56:52
  Speaker 2: Oh.
• 56:53
  Speaker 3: I love updates.
• 56:54
  Speaker 1: So sometimes we record these off records a little bit
• 56:57
  Speaker 1: ahead of time for our production schedule, and so since
• 57:01
  Speaker 1: we actually recorded this, there has been an update in
• 57:04
  Speaker 1: the case. So I wanted to just kind of run
• 57:05
  Speaker 1: you through that. Yeah, tell me, Okay. In early February,
• 57:09
  Speaker 1: Shelley Kat Martin and Daryl Music Martin, along with co defendants,
• 57:13
  Speaker 1: appeared in San Bernardino County Superior Court for a preliminary hearing.
• 57:18
  Speaker 1: This hearing, they were facing murder charges in the death
• 57:21
  Speaker 1: of that four year old boy, Timothy Thomas, and they
• 57:24
  Speaker 1: all pleaded not guilty. I mean that is just like unthinkable.
• 57:30
  Speaker 1: So this makes me think there's going to potentially be
• 57:34
  Speaker 1: a trial.
• 57:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah, if they're pleading not guilty and they're being in
• 57:37
  Speaker 2: charge with something that just sad and serious, then I
• 57:42
  Speaker 2: would think it will go to trial. But I have
• 57:44
  Speaker 2: to wonder what kind of evidence have they had all
• 57:48
  Speaker 2: these years or what kind of evidence did they just get,
• 57:52
  Speaker 2: because they must have been prepared for them to plead
• 57:54
  Speaker 2: not guilty. And then they have to be ready to
• 57:56
  Speaker 2: go to trial. Yeah, you don't drop charges like that. Yeah,
• 58:00
  Speaker 2: and it'll be an interesting case because this is from
• 58:03
  Speaker 2: an LA Times article and there's nothing written about, you know,
• 58:06
  Speaker 2: their defense strategy. But I imagine with that case, because he
• 58:11
  Speaker 2: died a ruptured appendix, and their religious beliefs were that
• 58:16
  Speaker 2: they didn't believe in doctors or anything like that, right,
• 58:18
  Speaker 2: So I wonder if they're going to try to have
• 58:20
  Speaker 2: some religious defense, religious freedom's defense or something.
• 58:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 58:25
  Speaker 2: And you know, I've seen cases like that pop up
• 58:28
  Speaker 2: where parents don't seek medical help for their children for
• 58:32
  Speaker 2: religious reasons. And you know, I can't think of like
• 58:36
  Speaker 2: the exact way things have played out off the top
• 58:38
  Speaker 2: of my head, but I would imagine in California they're
• 58:42
  Speaker 2: going to be, you know, maybe held more accountable than
• 58:45
  Speaker 2: in some other states. I'm guessing, but I hope. So,
• 58:50
  Speaker 2: I mean personally, that would be my hope. I think
• 58:52
  Speaker 2: when you are caring for a child, it's your responsibility
• 58:56
  Speaker 2: to do everything in your power to help them. I
• 58:59
  Speaker 2: agree they can't decide for themselves and so bring in
• 59:03
  Speaker 2: the experts. They also, like, aren't young enough to decide
• 59:05
  Speaker 2: what their spiritual beliefs are right exactly, get the medical care.
• 59:09
  Speaker 3: Get the medical care. Yeah.
• 59:10
  Speaker 2: That's unbelievably sad and also just so strange because you
• 59:15
  Speaker 2: have this convoluted relationship between his parents, the child's parents,
• 59:20
  Speaker 2: and these religious leaders and who's responsible. Yeah, I imagine
• 59:25
  Speaker 2: that's a difficult aspect of the case, but it's horrible.
• 59:28
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 59:28
  Speaker 1: And so this article did confirm that one of the
• 59:31
  Speaker 1: defendants is Andre Thomas. So, Andre Thomas has also been
• 59:34
  Speaker 1: charged in Timothy Thomas's death, and it was confirmed that
• 59:38
  Speaker 1: he was the father of Timothy Thomas. So a former
• 59:42
  Speaker 1: member testified for two hours, Kelly Bird, which is interesting
• 59:45
  Speaker 1: because I had read this person named Breebird had spoken
• 59:50
  Speaker 1: out to an outlet. We talked about that in this episode,
• 59:53
  Speaker 1: so I'm curious maybe they're related. Relation is yeah. So
• 59:57
  Speaker 1: through that testimony, we found out more information about his
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 1: Way spirit Led Assemblies, which is really interesting. We found
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 1: out that it was actually founded in Nashville in nineteen
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 1: ninety eight. I had been unaware of that. So it
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 1: started in Nashville and then they relocated to California in
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 1: the year two thousand and it was located in various
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 1: homes in the Inland Empire since.
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 2: Okay, so founding a church in Nashville and moving it
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 2: only two years later. I just wonder about that because
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 2: I would think moving any sort of group, community, business,
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 2: whatever it is, from Tennessee to California, that's no small thing.
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 2: I would imagine it requires you to start all over.
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 2: So I wonder that's sort of why they would do that.
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 1: And how many people were part of the group at
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 1: that point, Like how many people moved made the move
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 1: to California.
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and this is just I guess, me guessing, but
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 2: I would think they would have more people sort of
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 2: looking for a group like their's in the South than
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 2: in California.
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 1: I don't know, Yeah, I don't know. So Nashville had
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 1: popped up before because the man who went missing, Amelia Gannum,
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 1: the police are investigating in it as was a homicide.
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 1: So remember he left the group and moved back to Nashville.
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 1: So he's like from Nashville, right, So it turns out
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 1: that he joined in Nashville and then he followed the
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 1: Martins to California. So he had been okay, wow, part
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 1: of this for so long.
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and you have to think, like, that's a very
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 2: very close relationship if you're following them all that way. Like,
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 2: I don't know anyone who has followed their church to
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 2: a different state, but that could just be like I
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 2: don't know people like that. Maybe it's more common than
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 2: I realize. But still, I mean picking up and moving
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 2: to be closer to your church many many states away
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 2: away from your family, that is a big commitment.
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it really is. So another update. This was
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 1: not based on court testimony, but this is based on
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 1: an interview that The Times did with a FOROM member,
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 1: Anthony Duran. He said, quote, you had no choices in anything.
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 1: Just confirming yet again we've heard is that they were
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 1: very controlling about even where you went, what time, you know,
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 1: when you went to work, when you came home.
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 2: And it's so easy to say this on the outside
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 2: of a group like this, but what is the intention
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 2: behind that level of control, Like what could be a
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 2: good reason. Yeah, I'm seeing these things get passed off
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 2: as like I'm keeping you safe, I'm.
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 1: Protecting you, But it's not that. It's never that. No.
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 1: He gave more information about the pest control business Full Shield.
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 1: He said that men in the group were forced to
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 1: work for Full Shield. He said He was paid twelve
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 1: dollars an hour and required to work shifts of up
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 1: to seventeen hours. He was paid in checks, but sometimes
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 1: told then he wasn't allowed to cash them.
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like inhumane, illegal, and it wouldn't make it
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 2: really hard to leave that situation. You're sleep deprived, you're exhausted,
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 2: you're impoverished, like you have no money to speak of,
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 2: no savings. Where are you gonna go?
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. But Anthony is the one that we spoke
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 1: about who did leave the group, and it sounds like
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 1: he made this plan after years of working for Fole
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 1: Shield and sort of making some money but oftentimes like
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 1: not even getting paid. He somehow persuaded this is according
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 1: to his interview with The Times, the Martins to allow
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 1: him to finance a work truck in his name, so
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 1: that allowed him to have a mode of transportation that
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 1: was in his name. So he used that and then
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 1: in the middle of the night in twenty twenty, he
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 1: left and he was I believe twenty years old at
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 1: the time.
• 1:03:59
  Speaker 3: Wow.
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so that is like you had to plot and
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 1: plan his exit.
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 2: Thinking of having to do that as a legal adult,
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 2: Like you're twenty years old, and you have to do that.
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 2: Something bad is going on totally.
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 1: So that's just the information that has come out from
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 1: that preliminary hearing and I'm sure there will be so
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 1: much more to come.
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Well, thank you for that update. We'll be following
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 3: the case.
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 2: Thanks for listening. To see you next week. If you
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 2: have a story for us, we would love to hear it.
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 2: Our email is The Knife at exactlyrightmedia dot com, or
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 2: you can follow us on Instagram at the Knife Podcast
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 2: or a Blue Sky at the Knife Podcast.
• 1:04:38
  Speaker 1: This has been an Exactly Right production hosted and produced
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 1: by me Hannah Smith.
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 3: And me paysia E.
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 2: Our producers are Tom Bryfogel and Alexis Samarosi.
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 1: This episode was mixed by Tom Bryfogel.
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 2: Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain.
• 1:04:52
  Speaker 1: Our theme music is by Birds in the Airport Artwork.
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 3: Five Ands Lilac.
• 1:04:56
  Speaker 1: Executive produced by Karen Kilgareff, Georgia Hardstark and and Neil Cramer.