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Mini: Do We Need Privacy? · Why We Do What We Do

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: You're listening to Why We Do What We Do. Welcome
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: to Why We Do What We Do Mini. I'm your host, Abraham.
• 0:20
  Speaker 2: And I'm your host, Shane.
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: We are a psychology podcast. We talk about the things
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  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: Succinct, you might put it. Efficient.
• 0:35
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: Some synonyms for what I'm trying to convey here. And
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  Speaker 1: on Patreon. I'll talk more about those things at the
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: end of this discussion. But this is a mini, which
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: means we need to get into it. Is there anything
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  Speaker 1: that I missed or you would like to add before
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  Speaker 1: we start?
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  Speaker 2: No, I think we're good.
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  Speaker 1: Groovy. All right. So I don't know about y'all, but
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  Speaker 1: speaking for myself and everyone that I know or have
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  Speaker 1: ever met, we pretty much all universally make sure that
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  Speaker 1: we lock our doors at night. We lock our windows
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  Speaker 1: at night. We place security cameras on our houses and
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  Speaker 1: our businesses. We put bars on windows and alarms in
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  Speaker 1: our cars. And we do this so that other people...
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  Speaker 1: who might otherwise choose to enter those spaces are prevented
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  Speaker 1: from doing so, that they are thwarted in any attempt
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  Speaker 1: to victimize us that they might make. So it has
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  Speaker 1: to do with this fear of others and other people
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  Speaker 1: and the fact that that is a well-founded fear in
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  Speaker 1: many of these cases. Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: And further, we hide our identities. We keep our information
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  Speaker 3: restricted only to those we have granted permission to know
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  Speaker 3: things about us. We use passwords and private browsing to
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  Speaker 3: keep ourselves hidden.
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  Speaker 1: In short, we protect our privacy. And we've adopted this
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  Speaker 1: so thoroughly that some privacy measures are simply default now.
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  Speaker 1: But That's one of those things that we just kind
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  Speaker 1: of do. And we may not necessarily be thinking about
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  Speaker 1: it or asking questions about it. Why do we do this?
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  Speaker 1: And do we really need privacy? So that's the subject
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  Speaker 1: for this discussion is getting into the bigger, more zoomed
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  Speaker 1: out view and asking like, we do these things, but
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  Speaker 1: do we need to do these things? Why do we
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: do these things? Is it important to maintain these practices,
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  Speaker 1: et cetera?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah. So let's go ahead and get into it.
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  Speaker 3: Of course, privacy is not just protecting ourselves generically. We
• 2:56
  Speaker 3: also want privacy when we change our clothes, we take
• 2:58
  Speaker 3: a shower or use the restroom.
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: Don't look at, don't look. The other day I used
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  Speaker 2: a urinal and there were no walls.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: And the walls were incredibly reflective. So if there was
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  Speaker 3: somebody else that was standing next to me, I would
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  Speaker 3: have seen all their goods.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah. For the most part, for those of you listening
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  Speaker 1: who have not been in a restroom designated specifically for
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  Speaker 1: people who identify as male, Typically, there's little partitions between
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  Speaker 1: the urinals. And of course, all the toilets have doors
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  Speaker 1: and stalls and everything. But in this particular... I know
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  Speaker 1: which one you're... Because we were just at a conference together.
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  Speaker 2: Yes.
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  Speaker 1: It was basically just like a ceramic pot mounted to
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  Speaker 1: the wall that you would urinate into. It felt quite revealing.
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  Speaker 1: It was like, wow, this is... There's a lot of exposure.
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  Speaker 1: All you have to do is vaguely glance left or right,
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  Speaker 1: and you're getting a lot of an eyeful of stuff.
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  Speaker 2: Dude, you could have looked at the tile wall and seen.
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  Speaker 2: That's true, yeah. I mean, there's probably something to be
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  Speaker 2: said about that. It's very clean.
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  Speaker 3: But it's also like, nah, there's not a lot of
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  Speaker 3: privacy here. There's one person using these 10 urinals at
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  Speaker 3: a time.
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  Speaker 1: And the fact that that stood out to us, again,
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  Speaker 1: sort of speaks to how much we assume privacy is
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  Speaker 1: a default for some of these things. Yeah. It is
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  Speaker 1: so ingrained that we can find this privacy, this need
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  Speaker 1: for privacy in most cultures on Earth, and we take
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  Speaker 1: the desire for privacy entirely for granted. I think we
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  Speaker 1: really don't think about it. And to challenge you, listeners,
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  Speaker 1: have you ever really thought about how much you really
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  Speaker 1: need privacy in all these ways and why you need
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  Speaker 1: privacy in all those ways? And I'd be willing to
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  Speaker 1: bet that some of you have, but many of you
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  Speaker 1: probably haven't. You just assume we get privacy, we need privacy.
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  Speaker 1: And I wonder sometimes if... If babies just, if all
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  Speaker 1: the adults were gone and all the like one-year-olds were
• 4:48
  Speaker 1: around still and they could fend for themselves and they
• 4:51
  Speaker 1: could feed themselves and they could take care of themselves
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  Speaker 1: and whatever, would they develop with that same desire and
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  Speaker 1: need for privacy? I don't know that they would necessarily.
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  Speaker 1: They might have something, but I'd probably look different. But
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  Speaker 1: we learn this from each other as we grow older
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  Speaker 1: and privacy does become important. And it's worth, again, reflecting
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  Speaker 1: on this, I think, and asking, is it important and why?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: And so I think when we kind of unpack this,
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  Speaker 3: I mean, the short answer is yes, it is important.
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  Speaker 3: The way things are right now, we do need privacy.
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  Speaker 3: It is possible that we'll reach a point in which
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  Speaker 3: we don't, but it's very unlikely, at least in the
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  Speaker 3: near future.
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  Speaker 2: And, you know, I was thinking about this too.
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  Speaker 3: And I was thinking about like, there's a difference between
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  Speaker 3: I feel like some people could conflate privacy with modesty.
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  Speaker 2: Sure. And we're not talking about that.
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  Speaker 1: Right. That's a good note.
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  Speaker 3: I think it does probably influence the way that we
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  Speaker 3: view privacy or the things that we are private about.
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  Speaker 3: But I do think that modesty itself is a different concept.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's a great point. And you're absolutely right.
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  Speaker 1: So thinking about this, here's kind of... a rhetorical discussion
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  Speaker 1: to explain the why for why I think, I think,
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  Speaker 1: we think we do need privacy. So imagine that all
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  Speaker 1: of us on earth, we knew each other's thoughts. We
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  Speaker 1: could know one another's behaviors so well, it was as
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  Speaker 1: if we were doing those things ourselves. We know each
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  Speaker 1: other's fears, desires, our darkest secrets. We know everything, everything,
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  Speaker 1: everything about every other person on earth. And importantly, we
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  Speaker 1: do not use that information to prosecute one another or
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  Speaker 1: take away rights or freedoms from one another. If you
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  Speaker 1: can imagine that scenario, how differently we might feel about
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  Speaker 1: this issue.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, if that were the case, then you
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  Speaker 2: wouldn't get targeted ads.
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  Speaker 1: Right. We're back. Arguably, we wouldn't have ads at all
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  Speaker 1: if we knew each other that well because they're terrible.
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  Speaker 2: Nailed it.
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  Speaker 1: So going back to this, this whole thought experiment, if
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  Speaker 1: we could know each other's minds inside out and backwards,
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  Speaker 1: we knew each other as well as we know ourselves
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  Speaker 1: or better. If we knew each other in this way,
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  Speaker 1: we likely wouldn't need privacy. right? But that's kind of
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  Speaker 1: about what it would take for us to feel like
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  Speaker 1: we were there. It's difficult to imagine a situation that
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  Speaker 1: could ever come to exist where we're that close enough
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  Speaker 1: to each other that we feel like we don't need privacy.
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  Speaker 1: But Until we promise to never harm or victimize one
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  Speaker 1: another again, we're going to need privacy because otherwise there
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  Speaker 1: is that risk. And I think the compromise here is
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  Speaker 1: we give up in the sake of security. We also
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  Speaker 1: then have to, and privacy, we have to withdraw from
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  Speaker 1: one another a little bit at least.
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  Speaker 2: Right, right.
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  Speaker 3: So there are several compelling arguments for why we need privacy,
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  Speaker 3: even if you aren't doing anything wrong. And so let's
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  Speaker 3: go ahead and unpack each of these real quick. The
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  Speaker 3: first one is personal autonomy. We can be our authentic
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  Speaker 3: selves without fear of being watched or judged and tailoring
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  Speaker 3: our behavior to fit in with social norms, even when
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  Speaker 3: our behaviors affect only ourselves.
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  Speaker 2: But it might be socially awkward.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. Just exactly that. It's important for privacy reasons
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  Speaker 1: to feel like we can be who we are. The
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  Speaker 1: misuse of information is another reason. Again, this is like
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  Speaker 1: people who might say, we don't need privacy if you
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  Speaker 1: have nothing to hide. I'm like, even if you feel
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  Speaker 1: like you have nothing to hide, so to speak, people
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  Speaker 1: could potentially harvest information about you that could be taken
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  Speaker 1: out of context. It could be twisted or misconstrued to
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  Speaker 1: make you look bad, which could affect your employment. It
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  Speaker 1: could be used to target or prosecute you. So there
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  Speaker 1: are multiple ways that like... that this still could be
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  Speaker 1: used against you, even if you like have quote unquote,
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  Speaker 1: nothing to hide.
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  Speaker 2: Right.
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  Speaker 1: Right.
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  Speaker 2: Exactly. There's also the security piece.
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  Speaker 3: The more information people have about you, the more they
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  Speaker 3: could potentially exploit you and take your money or hoodwink you.
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  Speaker 2: Hoodwink is a really good word, by the way.
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  Speaker 3: Right. They could hoodwink you into spending your money that
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  Speaker 3: you wouldn't otherwise spend. As long as there are bad
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  Speaker 3: actors who will try to take your money, it is
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  Speaker 3: important to have security.
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  Speaker 1: And by extension, privacy.
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  Speaker 2: Right.
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  Speaker 1: There's also the human dignity piece. People should have the
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  Speaker 1: right to control what information they make available to others.
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  Speaker 1: When that is compromised, it can make people feel powerless
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  Speaker 1: and valueless, and they can potentially become aggressive if they're
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  Speaker 1: like trying to protect themselves. Interestingly, it has this almost counter,
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  Speaker 1: almost paradoxical feeling effect where it's like the less privacy
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  Speaker 1: they can have, the less trust they'll have in the
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  Speaker 1: institutions that have taken away their privacy and have invaded
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  Speaker 1: their privacy. So like less trust in the government, less
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  Speaker 1: trust in other institutions and private institutions. Like People need
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  Speaker 1: to feel like they can control their power. They have
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  Speaker 1: the power to control their privacy and their own information
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  Speaker 1: or else it erodes our ability to trust one another
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  Speaker 1: in addition to the fact that we also have the
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  Speaker 1: potential to have that be abused if our privacy is
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  Speaker 1: taken away.
• 10:00
  Speaker 3: Right. There are democratic principles here as well. Democracy implies
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  Speaker 3: that you can participate in government and make your voice heard.
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  Speaker 3: And an important part of that is that you can
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  Speaker 3: do so without fear of retribution. Privacy empowers people to
• 10:11
  Speaker 3: share their opinions without having to worry about prosecution or oppression.
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: Exactly. Yeah. So it's like, it's important for us to
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: also be able to, it's similar to being our authentic selves,
• 10:21
  Speaker 1: but it's like, we should be able to be critical
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: of the government and like have that be something that
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: is just heard, but that they can't come after us
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  Speaker 1: for it. Right? Right. Another important piece here is like,
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  Speaker 1: what is considered something to hide depends on the powers
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  Speaker 1: that be, like who's in charge at the time. It
• 10:39
  Speaker 1: might be perfectly fine to let people know that you're gay,
• 10:41
  Speaker 1: but until the far right comes into power and they
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: use that information to prosecute gay people. Or you might
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: have data tracking your menstruation that might indicate if you
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: ever became pregnant, and that might be fine until that
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  Speaker 1: information is used by conservatives to prosecute women who lose
• 10:59
  Speaker 1: a baby. Even if it was, it could have been
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: something like an abortion, but it also could have just
• 11:03
  Speaker 1: been a miscarriage. And then they accuse them of doing
• 11:06
  Speaker 1: that on purpose or something. So it's like, the fact
• 11:09
  Speaker 1: that they have menstruation is not something they should feel
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  Speaker 1: like they have to hide, except that that information can
• 11:14
  Speaker 1: be used against them. So they do need to have
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: that privacy. And like, that's something that like a lot
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: of times they can't control any, a lot of times
• 11:21
  Speaker 1: they can't control their menstruation, but like when like miscarriages happen,
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: like that is out of people's control a lot of
• 11:27
  Speaker 1: the time. And so the fact that that could be
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: treated in that way means that like, until we can
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  Speaker 1: trust people to not victimize other people until we get conservatives,
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: like out of positions of power, like, Like, people's civil
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  Speaker 1: liberties are very, very threatened and they need privacy to
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: protect them from those types of people.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: Now, or imagine that you're a Christian because this can
• 11:48
  Speaker 3: go the other way, right? Imagine you're a Christian and
• 11:50
  Speaker 3: some– it doesn't– by the way, it doesn't often go
• 11:53
  Speaker 3: the other way.
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: Usually, like, conservatives.
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  Speaker 1: But, like, let's just– like, let's play the experiment that, like,
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  Speaker 1: this is a two-way street.
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  Speaker 2: Let's play the game.
• 12:00
  Speaker 3: So, imagine being Christian and some radical anti-Christian comes into power.
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  Speaker 3: And when we say anti-Christian, we don't mean people who
• 12:06
  Speaker 3: are just, like, accepting of other religions. We mean people
• 12:09
  Speaker 3: who are specifically targeting victimized Christians, which has happened in history.
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah, probably another religious group. Religious groups tend to prosecute
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: other religious groups.
• 12:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. So imagine that.
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  Speaker 3: They come into power. They use your information to track
• 12:22
  Speaker 3: you down and prosecute you. And again, it goes both ways.
• 12:25
  Speaker 3: What there is to, quote unquote, to hide depends on
• 12:28
  Speaker 3: who is in power. It's who makes the laws, who
• 12:30
  Speaker 3: controls that type of thing. And specifically, if conservatives are
• 12:33
  Speaker 3: in power.
• 12:34
  Speaker 2: They are.
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  Speaker 3: Usually the ones seeking to remove civil liberties. Like as
• 12:37
  Speaker 3: a real life example right now, many people are hiding
• 12:40
  Speaker 3: their immigration status. And the reason they're hiding their immigration
• 12:43
  Speaker 3: status is because they are targeted by people in power
• 12:45
  Speaker 3: and they are being prosecuted and they are being persecuted
• 12:49
  Speaker 3: by people in power. So keeping their immigration status private
• 12:52
  Speaker 3: is important for their safety.
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: Even when it's legal. They were told we're only going
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: after illegal immigrants and then they went after everyone. So
• 12:59
  Speaker 1: it's like in this point, again, they did nothing wrong.
• 13:02
  Speaker 1: Matter of fact, they did everything right. But they're still
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: being beaten up, shot and deported and caged and detained
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: and targeted even if their immigration status is one that
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: is perfectly legal. Like because, again, it was never the
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: actual goal of conservatives to get legal immigrants out. They
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: want everyone who's not white out. Right. That's all they want. Right.
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: And so that is the game that they're playing. And again,
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: it's also worth pointing out that, as I mentioned before,
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: we have generally allowed that we must sacrifice... some of
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: our privacy in the name of some security, meaning that
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: we give over some of our right to privacy to
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: others who we then allow to, we say like, we'll
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: give up this for protection. And thinking about that further,
• 13:46
  Speaker 1: like we don't want to like protect the privacy of
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: people who would be victimizing other people. Like that's sort
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: of the give there is like, we give up enough
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: privacy that like when there are bad actors, they're easy
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: to find and remove, right? Because their privacy is not
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: so protected that they can keep getting away with that.
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: And to a point, and I'm not making the case
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: for this here, but increased surveillance has likely resulted in
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: reduced crime and victimization in many ways. It also has
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: reduced our privacy. I guarantee you, no matter how off
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: of the internet you might think you are, your picture
• 14:20
  Speaker 1: and information about you is out there in some places.
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: You're in the background of someone's photo. You're in the
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: background of someone's video. You're like pictures that were taken
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: a long time ago that were posted on someone else's
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: social media. Like it's out there. Like there are people
• 14:34
  Speaker 1: have often joked about me because I barely, I really
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: don't have an online presence aside from this podcast and
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: people find me. They like, and they, they will tell
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: me that like they saw me in this picture on
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: this thing and then they couldn't find my social media
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: profile because And I'm like, yeah, that was by design.
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: But I am still all over the internet because I
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: exist in a social community. And that's pretty much all
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: it takes. But we need to be careful what we
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: give up in service of ameliorating that risk. And so
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: it's like I think you just it can't be as
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: black and white as people might want it to be like, oh, like,
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: let's just give up all the privacy so we can
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: have all the security or let's just give up all
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: the security so we can have all the privacy. And
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: like there is there is nuance and gray area there.
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: But again, unless we're willing to stop hurting each other,
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: like we just have to have privacy for protection.
• 15:23
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: One hundred percent.
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: All right. Do you have any other thoughts on on privacy,
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: whether or not we need it? Do you need privacy?
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: I do need privacy.
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 15:30
  Speaker 2: No, I don't really have any other thoughts.
• 15:32
  Speaker 3: I mean, I think it's one of those things where
• 15:33
  Speaker 3: I think that you made an excellent point. Like we
• 15:37
  Speaker 3: need it until people can treat each other with kindness
• 15:40
  Speaker 3: and respect and like, we're not going to victimize other people.
• 15:43
  Speaker 3: Like until that day happens, which is very unlikely that
• 15:46
  Speaker 3: it ever will. Privacy is so important.
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 15:48
  Speaker 3: And so we've got to make sure that we maintain
• 15:50
  Speaker 3: it to whatever degree makes the most sense for you.
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I use private browsing a lot of time just
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: to prevent cookies. Like, and I know that depending on
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: the browser you're using, but like if you look up
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: flight information and then you look it up again later,
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: it might change just because they tracked an increase in
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: demand for that flight and now it's more expensive. Right.
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: And so like- using private browsing as a way to
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: get around some of the tracking that might make your life,
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: like make things more expensive for you because you're looking
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: for those things.
• 16:18
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: And like I've, when we've done notes for the podcast,
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: I've had to look up some weird stuff. And so
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: I've used private browsing. Cause I'm like, I really don't
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: want this to like live in my normal search history. Right.
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: Cause I'm like, I'm looking this up because I need
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: to know about this, but it's kind of a weird thing.
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: And like, it might, it could be easily taken out
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: of context. So like, There's reasons for that to exist. Anyway,
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: we've gone very long for a minute, so we need
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: to wrap this up. If you would like to support us,
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: you can join us on Patreon. There you'll get ad-free episodes,
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: early content, bonus content, and I will read your name
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: in a list of Patreon supporters at the end of
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: our full-length discussions. Thank you so much for listening. Thank
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: you to my team of people. Thank you for recording
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: with me today, Shane.
• 16:57
  Speaker 2: Hey, thanks for having me.
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: You can also support us by leaving us a rating
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: and a review. A good click, however, is the maximum
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: number of good things, stars, eggplants. I don't know what
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: they have in those different apps that stream us, but
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: click the good one and then follow us so that
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: you catch all of our future episodes. If you would
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: like to tell us your thoughts on privacy, I'm going
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: to give away our privacy. You can email us directly
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: at info at WWD, WWD podcast.com. And our podcast is
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: on social media platforms. All right. Is there anything that
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: I missed or you'd like to add before we say
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: our goodbyes?
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: Nope. I think we're good.
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: All right. Thank you all. This is Abraham.
• 17:28
  Speaker 2: This is Shane.
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: Why we do what we do. Minnie is out.
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: Bye.
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: You've been listening to why we do what we do.
• 17:35
  Speaker 3: You can learn more about this and other episodes by
• 17:38
  Speaker 3: going to WWD WWD podcast.com.
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: Thanks for listening. And we hope you have an awesome day.
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: Bye.