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SMNTY Interviews: Evan The Bioethicist · Stuff Mom Never Told You

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha.
• 0:06
  Speaker 2: I'm welcome to Stefan never told your production of iHeartRadio.
• 0:18
  Speaker 3: And today we are having what I would call a
• 0:21
  Speaker 3: wonderful fantasy crossover for me, specifically because my TikTok world
• 0:26
  Speaker 3: is coming onto the Sminty world. That is correct, and
• 0:30
  Speaker 3: I'm so excited because we have a bioethicist and expert
• 0:34
  Speaker 3: in the field of public health.
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: And Okay, first of all, that's just one of.
• 0:38
  Speaker 3: The mini hats that they wear, so I'm just gonna
• 0:42
  Speaker 3: leave it at that, but I'm so excited. Evan, Welcome
• 0:44
  Speaker 3: to s Minty, Welcome to the show.
• 0:46
  Speaker 4: Hi, thanks for having me.
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: Can you introduce yourself to our listeners.
• 0:52
  Speaker 4: I can. My name is Evan and I am I
• 0:55
  Speaker 4: go by Evan the bioethicist on TikTok. I work in
• 0:58
  Speaker 4: public health, but I also have a background in all
• 1:01
  Speaker 4: things related to misinformation, disinformation, and conspiracy theories as they
• 1:05
  Speaker 4: affect public health. And this includes things like biotechnology, AI
• 1:09
  Speaker 4: and media so much.
• 1:12
  Speaker 3: And you just did like a very succinct introduction because
• 1:15
  Speaker 3: as I was like looking you up, because I know
• 1:17
  Speaker 3: you from TikTok, the discovery of TikTok, because the listeners
• 1:21
  Speaker 3: know I'm obsessed. But when I was reading through the
• 1:24
  Speaker 3: articles that you have the like the education, your background,
• 1:30
  Speaker 3: your career filed, I'm like, my gosh, I think we
• 1:34
  Speaker 3: need well you were talking about want to expand. I
• 1:36
  Speaker 3: think you need a podcast and if you want to
• 1:38
  Speaker 3: come on to ours more often.
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  Speaker 4: I don't know anything about the podcasting world. People have
• 1:45
  Speaker 4: said I need a podcast. I don't know what that entails.
• 1:47
  Speaker 4: I am open to learning, though, Hey.
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  Speaker 3: I love that you're stepping in with us, because I
• 1:52
  Speaker 3: do feel like, again, this is one of those moments
• 1:54
  Speaker 3: where I fan girl a little too much because I'm like,
• 1:57
  Speaker 3: I've seen them so often on my feed and they
• 2:00
  Speaker 3: tell me great information. Now they're here and I'm just
• 2:03
  Speaker 3: gonna pick their brains. Which I've already warned you. It
• 2:05
  Speaker 3: was like, be ready questions.
• 2:08
  Speaker 4: I'm open for it. I'm available good.
• 2:11
  Speaker 3: Like I said, I'm so excited to talk about your
• 2:15
  Speaker 3: work and your experiences and just your overall expertise because
• 2:20
  Speaker 3: there's a lot going on in the world.
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  Speaker 4: A lot.
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  Speaker 2: Yes, that is true, Yes, it definitely is.
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  Speaker 4: A lot of people have told me that my research,
• 2:33
  Speaker 4: which I finished school about two years ago now, was
• 2:36
  Speaker 4: very precin and I'm like, you know, yeah, I didn't
• 2:39
  Speaker 4: realize how much, so but.
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: You know, yeah, well here you are. Can you for
• 2:49
  Speaker 2: those of us that might not know, can you give
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  Speaker 2: us a brief explanation of what a bioethicist is and does?
• 2:55
  Speaker 4: Absolutely? I know when you know your listeners and my mom,
• 3:00
  Speaker 4: I tell you right, So, a bioethicist. There's this thing
• 3:05
  Speaker 4: called medical humanities, and in the science there's like the
• 3:08
  Speaker 4: science humanities, and so it's essentially those are folks who
• 3:11
  Speaker 4: are who do the like social science part of like
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  Speaker 4: hard sciences. I don't really love calling things hard and
• 3:19
  Speaker 4: soft sciences, but you know, so, a bioethicist is someone
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  Speaker 4: who has a background in training in things like decision
• 3:27
  Speaker 4: making policy. We learn about qualitative methodology when it comes
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  Speaker 4: to research. We talk a lot about things like consent
• 3:36
  Speaker 4: when it comes to research subjects. So we talk a
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  Speaker 4: lot about ethical design and principles That can range from
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  Speaker 4: everything from like transplantation ethics and policy to clinical bioethics,
• 3:50
  Speaker 4: which is helping people decide things around like religion, beliefs,
• 3:55
  Speaker 4: like people want to be I have a DNR DNI.
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  Speaker 4: There's like so much to it and every bioethicist is
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  Speaker 4: very different. A lot of bioethicists combine their bioethics training
• 4:06
  Speaker 4: with like a medical degree, like being an MD or
• 4:09
  Speaker 4: being a JD. So you'll see a lot of bioethicists
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  Speaker 4: who cause play as lawyers and doctors. But we're many things,
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  Speaker 4: which is why you don't hear about them as often
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  Speaker 4: because oftentimes, you know, people know what a lawyer is,
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  Speaker 4: people know what a physician or a doctor is, and
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  Speaker 4: so they don't really know that the person that they
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  Speaker 4: know who's a lawyer or a doctor is is a
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  Speaker 4: bioethicist or practices bioethics rather than is practicing medicine or law.
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  Speaker 1: That makes sense, thank you, because I'm not gonna lie.
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  Speaker 3: It wasn't until I again stumbled on your page that
• 4:42
  Speaker 3: I was like, what what is this? Oh?
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  Speaker 1: That makes sense? Like it makes sense when you.
• 4:47
  Speaker 3: Hear it after the fact, you're like, yeah, that's necessary.
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  Speaker 1: I like this.
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  Speaker 4: And to be fair, we've only started to endeavor bioethicists
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  Speaker 4: as a standalone profession, and having started to endeavor bioethics
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  Speaker 4: in public health, it's not super super common that someone
• 5:03
  Speaker 4: is like, I'm just a bioethicis like that is my training. Fully,
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  Speaker 4: that is what I'm interested in, and I work in
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  Speaker 4: public health and those things are super rare. Now they're growing,
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  Speaker 4: They're ever growing, and there's more and more of us
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  Speaker 4: every year.
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  Speaker 3: But.
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  Speaker 4: Newer.
• 5:18
  Speaker 1: So what made you choose this work exactly?
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  Speaker 4: Originally, historically in undergrad I had been pre med and
• 5:26
  Speaker 4: then somebody told me that I had to do rotations
• 5:29
  Speaker 4: where I had to treat patients. And I never wanted
• 5:31
  Speaker 4: to do that. I know that sounds kooky, but I
• 5:35
  Speaker 4: had always wanted to have the training in medicine. I
• 5:38
  Speaker 4: never wanted to treat people. I had thought I would
• 5:40
  Speaker 4: go into things like forensics, and then I realized I
• 5:43
  Speaker 4: actually really like the more expansive or like population health
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  Speaker 4: based work that comes with public health. But I still
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  Speaker 4: love the medical humanities. I still love talking to people
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  Speaker 4: about like what does it mean to like think about
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  Speaker 4: zeno transplantation, or like I love telling people. I love
• 5:59
  Speaker 4: telling people about how important horseshoe crabs are to protecting
• 6:04
  Speaker 4: us from having unsterile like medications, especially cancer medications which
• 6:09
  Speaker 4: are injectables. Like that fuels me these like sort of weird,
• 6:15
  Speaker 4: quirky facts. But an also like the complexity that comes
• 6:19
  Speaker 4: with like thought and decision making. A lot of people
• 6:22
  Speaker 4: don't think about how does policy happen, how do decisions happen?
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  Speaker 4: What influences medicine? And I love talking about those things.
• 6:30
  Speaker 4: I love learning about them. I've been recently, I know
• 6:34
  Speaker 4: if Samantha, since you watched my TikTok, you know how
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  Speaker 4: much I've been delving into like disgusted as like a
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  Speaker 4: philosophic concept.
• 6:41
  Speaker 1: So yeah, I'm not gonna lie. That one went over
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  Speaker 1: my head.
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  Speaker 3: I had to sit there and like, as you were
• 6:47
  Speaker 3: talking about these series, I had to go back and
• 6:49
  Speaker 3: I was.
• 6:49
  Speaker 1: Like, wait, what huh?
• 6:51
  Speaker 3: Because that in itself as a question didn't doesn't rise
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  Speaker 3: in my head.
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  Speaker 1: Does that make sense? I was like, oh, huh huh.
• 6:59
  Speaker 1: So there's so.
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  Speaker 3: Many Okay, obviously again with a fangirl is like, there
• 7:02
  Speaker 3: are so many moments where I've had to take your
• 7:05
  Speaker 3: video which is a little longer than your typical like
• 7:08
  Speaker 3: ten second or fifteen second run up, because you give
• 7:10
  Speaker 3: so much information that I have to go back and
• 7:12
  Speaker 3: listen to a few times, and each time I feel
• 7:15
  Speaker 3: like I'm catching onto something different in a lesson. So
• 7:18
  Speaker 3: it does feel like I'm getting a good school learning
• 7:22
  Speaker 3: when I'm listening to your stuff. But again, like it
• 7:24
  Speaker 3: rises to new questions that I'm like, I haven't even
• 7:26
  Speaker 3: thought of that one.
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  Speaker 4: And that's the idea. I mean. When I originally started
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  Speaker 4: to endeavor to create my page and really curate it
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  Speaker 4: with information, I was thinking critically around, like, how can
• 7:37
  Speaker 4: this be an educational tool? How can people use this?
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  Speaker 4: Can people revisit what I've said? And so I love
• 7:44
  Speaker 4: that people say that they come back and watch a
• 7:47
  Speaker 4: video over over, because yeah, a lot of these things
• 7:50
  Speaker 4: are not things you're going to like consume once and
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  Speaker 4: be like, oh, I got it, Like that's good. I like,
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  Speaker 4: but reflection is part of it, right, Like that's like you.
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  Speaker 2: Know yeah, yeah, I mean it's obviously if you're an
• 8:02
  Speaker 2: expert in something, it makes sense that somebody in one
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  Speaker 2: video watch would be like, yes, understood. So with everything
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  Speaker 2: that we've alluded to that it is happening today, especially
• 8:15
  Speaker 2: in the US perhaps, and as you mentioned, you have
• 8:19
  Speaker 2: expertise in combating misinformation and disinformation when it comes to
• 8:24
  Speaker 2: public health. That seems like a really huge task. Can
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  Speaker 2: you tell us what this type of work actually looks like.
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  Speaker 4: It looks like a lot of things, but one of
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  Speaker 4: the primary things I like to point out for people
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  Speaker 4: is that a lot of people think this is like
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  Speaker 4: a newer thing, and especially in medicine and health, misinformation
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  Speaker 4: and disinformation and conspiracy theories have always existed. I mean,
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  Speaker 4: I could go all the way back to the first
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  Speaker 4: like organized invention of like vaccination with cowpox, right, which
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  Speaker 4: we were injecting people with a live virus to protect
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  Speaker 4: against smallpox. And there was a number of newspapers that
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  Speaker 4: put out like, you know, sort of tongue in cheek
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  Speaker 4: cartoons of people turning into cows, right, and that influenced
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  Speaker 4: people into thinking or trying or avoiding vaccination because they
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  Speaker 4: were afraid they would be turned into a cow. So
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  Speaker 4: the first thing is to know the history of it,
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  Speaker 4: and the second thing is to also know the difference
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  Speaker 4: between misinformation and disinformation. A lot of people use those interchangeably,
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  Speaker 4: and they're not the same. Misinformation is just somebody really
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  Speaker 4: not understanding the science of medicine. Any one of us
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  Speaker 4: has been guilty of creating it. You know, if you've
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  Speaker 4: ever been to the doctor and they told you, you know,
• 9:38
  Speaker 4: like some big fancy word that you did not recognize,
• 9:41
  Speaker 4: like gastroparesis, and you came home and you were like,
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  Speaker 4: I have gastro parents, and I don't know what that means.
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  Speaker 4: You've inadvertently created misinformation. Doctors, public health experts, all of
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  Speaker 4: those were always dealing with having to sort of be corrective.
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  Speaker 4: And it's not malicious, it's just people who aren't trained
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  Speaker 4: in science won't get everything. But disinformation is an intentional
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  Speaker 4: creation of information that is wrong, and it usually has
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  Speaker 4: monetary value. There's usually something that someone can get out
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  Speaker 4: of creating disinformation, and there's a way that they can
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  Speaker 4: monetize that, either the platform or they can drive people
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  Speaker 4: to purchase something. There's all different ways that they do it.
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  Speaker 4: And then they also target particular populations, so they have
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  Speaker 4: a design. It has a science and a design to it,
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  Speaker 4: and a distribution tacked and technique. So those are the
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  Speaker 4: things that I think are like the most pressing in
• 10:42
  Speaker 4: my mind when it comes to the like at the
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  Speaker 4: very if we're going to start to unravel it.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, and we are big over here in making sure
• 10:52
  Speaker 3: we understand the conversation when it comes to misinformation and disinformation.
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  Speaker 1: So thank you for clarifying that.
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  Speaker 3: Also, you do talk about the fact that misinformation can
• 11:02
  Speaker 3: happen even with people with good intentions.
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  Speaker 1: I know.
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  Speaker 3: I think I've probably been guilty of this as well,
• 11:08
  Speaker 3: because you hear something that's very hyperbolic and you take
• 11:10
  Speaker 3: it literal because I'm a very literal person. So you
• 11:13
  Speaker 3: can't tell me something and then not clarify immediately because
• 11:16
  Speaker 3: I'll be like, what so when we do that, what
• 11:19
  Speaker 3: is something that you think we should how we should
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  Speaker 3: handle our own giving misinformation.
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  Speaker 4: I always want to encourage people, especially people with a
• 11:27
  Speaker 4: media platform of some sort, to really check the information
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  Speaker 4: and the facts that they're sharing, and also to look
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  Speaker 4: at what facts do I need to share or not
• 11:38
  Speaker 4: need to share, or what's the context I'm providing. The
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  Speaker 4: best example I can give is I know plenty of
• 11:44
  Speaker 4: people on TikTok and other places that really want to
• 11:47
  Speaker 4: keep people informed about bird flu. The issue is is
• 11:50
  Speaker 4: that they're not contextualizing bird flu by talking about the
• 11:53
  Speaker 4: number of deaths or the number of people infected so far,
• 11:57
  Speaker 4: the point of transmission. These are very important heat of
• 12:00
  Speaker 4: components to leave out. And then also if you're really
• 12:04
  Speaker 4: worried about something like communicable disease, to be making video
• 12:09
  Speaker 4: after video after a video about bird flu, but not
• 12:11
  Speaker 4: making a video being really informative around the actual seasonal flu,
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  Speaker 4: which we have an incredible amount of hospitalizations, a record
• 12:21
  Speaker 4: number of hospitalizations this year when it comes to seasonal flu,
• 12:25
  Speaker 4: and I just sort of think it's really misleading. I
• 12:27
  Speaker 4: understand why people want to be informative about bird flu
• 12:30
  Speaker 4: because there's a lot of unknowns, But if you're not
• 12:32
  Speaker 4: an expert in public health and don't understand who's tracking it,
• 12:35
  Speaker 4: and don't understand what the threat level is from the
• 12:39
  Speaker 4: perspective of someone working in public health, then you can
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  Speaker 4: really kind of be distracting more than you can be informative.
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  Speaker 1: Oh oh yeah.
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  Speaker 3: With that, With the fact that the US pulling out
• 13:01
  Speaker 3: of you know who, and the recent firings of so
• 13:04
  Speaker 3: many people from the public health and the CDC, a
• 13:08
  Speaker 3: lot of people are really concerned about not getting correct
• 13:11
  Speaker 3: or accurate information. What is some advice you would give
• 13:15
  Speaker 3: us lay people who has to watch your videos five
• 13:18
  Speaker 3: times to understand what's going on in trying to find
• 13:21
  Speaker 3: the most accurate and up to date health information.
• 13:23
  Speaker 4: I always like to remind people that they do live
• 13:26
  Speaker 4: in a multi layered governance space, and so you can
• 13:31
  Speaker 4: when it First of all, the way that it works
• 13:33
  Speaker 4: when it comes to tracking disease for the CDC is
• 13:35
  Speaker 4: the CDC works on a like a reporting up model,
• 13:39
  Speaker 4: And so what often happens for people or the process
• 13:43
  Speaker 4: is that local so like municipal and state entities usually
• 13:48
  Speaker 4: report up to the CDC, and the CDC gathers those
• 13:51
  Speaker 4: numbers and then looks at trends and then does outward
• 13:54
  Speaker 4: reporting nationally. Right, So the good news is is that
• 13:58
  Speaker 4: the things that are being reported or tracked depending on
• 14:00
  Speaker 4: where you live. Now, the caveat I will say here
• 14:05
  Speaker 4: is that not all municipalities are treated equal. But depending
• 14:08
  Speaker 4: on where you live, your local health department is just
• 14:11
  Speaker 4: as in the know as the CDC, if not more so,
• 14:15
  Speaker 4: because they're doing the reporting up for the CDC to
• 14:18
  Speaker 4: like an EIS officer or other folks. So I would
• 14:22
  Speaker 4: encourage people to actually be more exploratory with their local
• 14:26
  Speaker 4: again like city health department or their county health department
• 14:30
  Speaker 4: or their state health department. For folks who feel like
• 14:34
  Speaker 4: they can't trust those entities either, and I understand why,
• 14:38
  Speaker 4: I would also look to nonpartisan organizations. I've pointed out
• 14:42
  Speaker 4: places like the APHA CSTE, which is like the Council
• 14:48
  Speaker 4: of State and Territorial Epidemiologists. Those are some organizations I
• 14:53
  Speaker 4: think off the top, there's an organization called NASDAD that
• 14:57
  Speaker 4: focuses mainly on HIV and STIs. So these organizations are
• 15:01
  Speaker 4: non partisan, but also they are private entities. They do
• 15:06
  Speaker 4: government contracting, so they have a lot of good relationships
• 15:09
  Speaker 4: with state, municipal and federal public health experts. But you
• 15:15
  Speaker 4: can also sign up for the WHO newsletter use an
• 15:18
  Speaker 4: individual can interface with WHO yourself. A lot of people
• 15:23
  Speaker 4: don't realize that they can do that.
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah again, TikTok novel. Well I'm so, I'm so one TikTok.
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: I gotta stop.
• 15:32
  Speaker 4: But newsletters always kind of for new I always want
• 15:35
  Speaker 4: to encourage people to sign up for newsletters when it
• 15:36
  Speaker 4: comes to public health and informing yourself.
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: That's such a great idea.
• 15:41
  Speaker 3: I forget about newsletters like this is in the age
• 15:45
  Speaker 3: of social media, and even though I grew up in
• 15:47
  Speaker 3: the age of newsletters and actual newspapers, I still kind
• 15:50
  Speaker 3: of forget.
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, yeah, that does exist.
• 15:53
  Speaker 4: Look at this.
• 15:54
  Speaker 3: I think there's a lot in this conversation. You again,
• 15:59
  Speaker 3: I want to talk about some of the series that
• 16:00
  Speaker 3: you've done because you do a great job. And talking
• 16:02
  Speaker 3: about health and policy, you're doing a great job. And
• 16:05
  Speaker 3: talking about black history. You just talked about disability and
• 16:09
  Speaker 3: the Black Panthers and all like what so much, so
• 16:11
  Speaker 3: much great information. So listeners, if you don't, if you haven't,
• 16:14
  Speaker 3: you need to go walk in. But I do want
• 16:17
  Speaker 3: to kind of get it in some of the negativity,
• 16:19
  Speaker 3: and we're going to come to positive too, but just
• 16:21
  Speaker 3: because you know, we do the bad news version and
• 16:22
  Speaker 3: the good news. So historically and today, society and governments
• 16:27
  Speaker 3: for the most part have ignored or erased women and
• 16:31
  Speaker 3: marginalized people when it comes to public health, illness, sicknesses,
• 16:34
  Speaker 3: and safety in general. What are some things you've seen
• 16:37
  Speaker 3: during your career or even in your studies that are
• 16:40
  Speaker 3: concerning in this area.
• 16:43
  Speaker 4: The thing that concerns me the most is actually stigma.
• 16:45
  Speaker 4: Stigma for certain populations and stigma for certain public health conditions.
• 16:51
  Speaker 4: So the two that I would give as examples is.
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  Speaker 4: The first stigma I would give is around like sex workers.
• 16:57
  Speaker 4: I think there's a huge amount I mean no, I
• 16:58
  Speaker 4: don't think I know that there's a huge man stigma
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  Speaker 4: around that being the way that people engage in their
• 17:05
  Speaker 4: like you know, commerce exchange. I do like to remind
• 17:08
  Speaker 4: everyone that all of us who do labor are exchanging
• 17:11
  Speaker 4: our labor and our bodies for money. We're just not
• 17:14
  Speaker 4: exchanging a particular kind of labor for money. But the
• 17:18
  Speaker 4: stigma that really ensnares and in circles sex workers is
• 17:22
  Speaker 4: really insidious because we a lot of us buy into it.
• 17:26
  Speaker 4: A lot of us are very paternalistic, and so the
• 17:29
  Speaker 4: way that we talk about public health and sex workers
• 17:31
  Speaker 4: still sort of demands controlling people's bodies or imperiling the
• 17:37
  Speaker 4: way that people make money to pay their bills that
• 17:40
  Speaker 4: they may be comfortable with and they are consenting to
• 17:44
  Speaker 4: and they like doing. It's very easy to have a
• 17:47
  Speaker 4: conversation with people around sex work and people not wanting
• 17:52
  Speaker 4: to do it. It's very uncomfortable to have a conversation
• 17:54
  Speaker 4: with people around sex work, and how do we protect
• 17:57
  Speaker 4: folks who do want to be doing that work, how
• 18:00
  Speaker 4: do we interface with them in a way that's just
• 18:02
  Speaker 4: like morally benign. We want to really moralize these things
• 18:07
  Speaker 4: when we talk about stigma. And then the other one
• 18:09
  Speaker 4: is like things like STIs, particularly STIs that are very
• 18:13
  Speaker 4: easy to transmit and transenda and end up with Like
• 18:18
  Speaker 4: so things like chlamydia, for example, it's a very treatable STI.
• 18:23
  Speaker 4: It's very easy to transmit if you've had sexual contact
• 18:27
  Speaker 4: with someone. But we've still really highly stigmatized someone who
• 18:31
  Speaker 4: has a history of having caught or transmitted chlamydia. We
• 18:37
  Speaker 4: don't have the same stigmatization for things like the common cold,
• 18:41
  Speaker 4: we don't have the same We don't stigmatize someone who's
• 18:43
  Speaker 4: given us COVID even though they've you know, done some
• 18:46
  Speaker 4: real serious harm. But it's because we know the transmission
• 18:49
  Speaker 4: point that we've really stigmatized sti's and that leads into
• 18:53
  Speaker 4: other things too, like more chronic conditions like herpes and HIV.
• 18:57
  Speaker 4: When we stigmatize things, it means it's hard to treat
• 19:00
  Speaker 4: or care for them. I would love to see in
• 19:03
  Speaker 4: public health we get to a point where we ask
• 19:06
  Speaker 4: people about the work that they do, and someone can
• 19:08
  Speaker 4: reveal that they do sex work and it has no
• 19:11
  Speaker 4: moral bearings on how they're treated. And I would really
• 19:13
  Speaker 4: love to see at a day and age where somebody
• 19:17
  Speaker 4: can go into clinical space and talk about their past
• 19:21
  Speaker 4: history or their current experience with a chronic STI or
• 19:24
  Speaker 4: a chronic disease that they acquired through sexual transmission, and
• 19:30
  Speaker 4: it also be morally benign, and we treat it the
• 19:33
  Speaker 4: same way we treat someone living with chronic cancer or
• 19:36
  Speaker 4: someone with You know that they need a certain kind
• 19:38
  Speaker 4: of care, but it doesn't have bearing on how they're
• 19:42
  Speaker 4: going to be treated. I think that's what's Those are
• 19:45
  Speaker 4: the things that are super concerning and in the current
• 19:47
  Speaker 4: politicized the thing that really concerns me overall is how
• 19:52
  Speaker 4: we politicize public health, and especially how we politicize marginalized
• 19:57
  Speaker 4: folks or vulnerable populations. On top of that, right, and
• 20:01
  Speaker 4: the neglect of things like people with disability and the
• 20:03
  Speaker 4: weaponization of things like the weaponization of like anti trans
• 20:08
  Speaker 4: rhetoric to try and tear down Section five oh four,
• 20:10
  Speaker 4: for example, which is for disabilities. It's a protection for
• 20:14
  Speaker 4: folks with disabilities. These things don't live in bubbles and isolation,
• 20:19
  Speaker 4: and a lot of these things where they all dump
• 20:22
  Speaker 4: out is public health.
• 20:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, coming to the positive, what are some of
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: the more encouraging things that you have seen.
• 20:34
  Speaker 4: In public health? Yeah? Oh man, there's like so many.
• 20:39
  Speaker 4: I think that I love that you asked this because
• 20:41
  Speaker 4: I love talking about how amazing public health is first
• 20:47
  Speaker 4: of all, a lot of public health practitioners, a lot
• 20:49
  Speaker 4: of people have become more interested in public health as
• 20:52
  Speaker 4: a profession. I love that I've been seeing a lot
• 20:55
  Speaker 4: more mixed methodology and public health research, and this is
• 20:57
  Speaker 4: super important to talk about causation, especially around things like
• 21:03
  Speaker 4: racial disparities in public health. Historically, people have done research
• 21:06
  Speaker 4: in public health where they primarily researched disparities but didn't
• 21:13
  Speaker 4: sort of stopped there, and so we'd often hear like, oh,
• 21:16
  Speaker 4: you know, maternal health, like maternal mortality statistics are really
• 21:21
  Speaker 4: bad for black women, and they're you know, different for
• 21:24
  Speaker 4: this group and this group. But more and more researchers
• 21:27
  Speaker 4: have started to realize that if they're going to talk
• 21:30
  Speaker 4: about health disparities, especially racially, then they need to also
• 21:34
  Speaker 4: point out that the cause isn't race itself, like biologically
• 21:38
  Speaker 4: or inherently, it's racism in a system. And so that
• 21:43
  Speaker 4: requires less quantitative methodology and also qualitative methodology interviewing focused groups,
• 21:51
  Speaker 4: surveying on top of the quantitative work that you want
• 21:56
  Speaker 4: to be doing. So I'm really excited to see what
• 22:00
  Speaker 4: I think is going to be much more incisive and
• 22:02
  Speaker 4: insightful research from folks. And then the other thing too,
• 22:07
  Speaker 4: is like like biomedical breakthroughs, like the fact that you
• 22:11
  Speaker 4: can have you have injectibles. I mean recently it was
• 22:14
  Speaker 4: just like National HIV Day and we have injectables now
• 22:19
  Speaker 4: for HIV care. That means someone can come in once
• 22:23
  Speaker 4: every three months for an injectible and managed to maintain
• 22:28
  Speaker 4: ANNDIE an undetectable viral load. I mean that is such
• 22:34
  Speaker 4: a feat in a generation from back in the nineties
• 22:39
  Speaker 4: where people were having to take sort of fistfuls of
• 22:42
  Speaker 4: medication just to stay alive and the side effects were very,
• 22:45
  Speaker 4: very aggressive, painful and debilitating. So there's amazing work happening
• 22:51
  Speaker 4: in care and treatment that we're able to promote in
• 22:53
  Speaker 4: public health.
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: I love that. I feel like we need balances.
• 22:59
  Speaker 3: We need to know the truth and dark, but we
• 23:01
  Speaker 3: need to know that things are happening whether or not
• 23:05
  Speaker 3: we see it. You know, you did bring up the
• 23:07
  Speaker 3: whole thing with the disability acts and what's going down
• 23:11
  Speaker 3: in public health, and I've seen more and more people
• 23:14
  Speaker 3: coming out like this is this is a whole conversation,
• 23:17
  Speaker 3: an abless conversation that's using trans people as a weapon
• 23:21
  Speaker 3: against this disabled people's and how it comes down to,
• 23:24
  Speaker 3: as you and I are having a conversation before about
• 23:27
  Speaker 3: eugenics and what this looks like in general, what are
• 23:30
  Speaker 3: some things that we need to be watching for as
• 23:33
  Speaker 3: they're having this big conversation about this.
• 23:36
  Speaker 4: I think the weaponization of different vulnerable populations against other
• 23:40
  Speaker 4: groups is a big one, and not just like in
• 23:44
  Speaker 4: how we stigmatize certain groups, but in like the section
• 23:47
  Speaker 4: five h four is such a good example because it's
• 23:49
  Speaker 4: being weaponized in an attempt to be cruel to trans people,
• 23:56
  Speaker 4: we may inadvertently dismantle something that it has been an
• 24:00
  Speaker 4: incredible necessity for rights to access for a number of
• 24:07
  Speaker 4: number of things. Another of supports resources, et cetera for
• 24:11
  Speaker 4: folks with disabilities, and so our transphobia has a huge
• 24:16
  Speaker 4: cost and is going to be the right for someone
• 24:20
  Speaker 4: with a disability to have assistive technology provided to them
• 24:24
  Speaker 4: in school, or the right to access certain like housing
• 24:29
  Speaker 4: or what like all of these ways that section five
• 24:31
  Speaker 4: or four has been used since nineteen seventy seven, and
• 24:35
  Speaker 4: so I think that's the thing I really want people
• 24:36
  Speaker 4: to watch out for, is that you're not understanding a
• 24:39
  Speaker 4: population like even if you don't agree with sex work.
• 24:42
  Speaker 4: I'm going to use that because it's the one that
• 24:43
  Speaker 4: makes people the most activated. Even if you don't agree
• 24:47
  Speaker 4: morally with sex work, you have to understand that the
• 24:51
  Speaker 4: way that we address the population that does sex work
• 24:57
  Speaker 4: has rippling effect to our rights and can dismantle our
• 25:02
  Speaker 4: rights in an attempt to what like, punish someone because
• 25:06
  Speaker 4: they the way that they access like some sort of
• 25:11
  Speaker 4: financial gain or like the money they need to pay
• 25:15
  Speaker 4: their bills is far different than what we're willing to do.
• 25:18
  Speaker 4: I don't know, Like, what do you like? I guess
• 25:21
  Speaker 4: the question I would ask anyone is what are you
• 25:23
  Speaker 4: on you, on your physical self or in your life
• 25:27
  Speaker 4: willing to give up to punish someone else? And most
• 25:31
  Speaker 4: people's answer is nothing, Right, would you give up like
• 25:35
  Speaker 4: three of your fingers to be able to punish a
• 25:37
  Speaker 4: trans person? No? And when you make it clear like that,
• 25:42
  Speaker 4: I think then people sort of get it. But in
• 25:45
  Speaker 4: it when it's when it's sort of wrapped in the
• 25:48
  Speaker 4: sort of strange enigma of policy and legislation and lawsuits
• 25:53
  Speaker 4: and case law, a lot of people are more than
• 25:56
  Speaker 4: comfortable to sacrifice the good portion of themselves.
• 25:59
  Speaker 3: Right right, all in the name of whatever their morality,
• 26:05
  Speaker 3: which is a whole different conversation. I find it interesting,
• 26:18
  Speaker 3: and this is just a sidebar because I've been noticing
• 26:21
  Speaker 3: as on a blue sky, people going back and forth
• 26:23
  Speaker 3: and being in this conversation being like, no, this is
• 26:25
  Speaker 3: not an accident and just trying to get like trying
• 26:28
  Speaker 3: to punish trans people. This is purposeful in wrapping everybody
• 26:32
  Speaker 3: together in order to have the supremacist idea, and people
• 26:37
  Speaker 3: are not realizing it and try and getting too much
• 26:40
  Speaker 3: credit to the opposition and saying that.
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: They made a mistake.
• 26:43
  Speaker 3: No, they did this on purpose, and we need to
• 26:45
  Speaker 3: be very vigilant about the fact that this has always
• 26:48
  Speaker 3: been a part of the plan. And when it comes
• 26:51
  Speaker 3: to white supremacy, it is about eugenics. They really think
• 26:55
  Speaker 3: that there is this perfect setup, which is hilarious in
• 26:59
  Speaker 3: itself because you're like, your narcissism is showing, and that's
• 27:02
  Speaker 3: the diagnosis.
• 27:03
  Speaker 4: Just so you know, we're not experiencing a perfect world
• 27:07
  Speaker 4: with you in charge.
• 27:08
  Speaker 3: Right right right, We are falling apart, and I don't
• 27:12
  Speaker 3: know what to do and I cry a lot.
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: I'm just kidding, Uh, I'm not kidding.
• 27:16
  Speaker 3: But so here in the State of Georgia, I'm sure
• 27:20
  Speaker 3: you've been aware. We've watched the government not only ignore
• 27:24
  Speaker 3: the health officials and people about reproductive care and the rights,
• 27:29
  Speaker 3: but literally have dismantled almost any accountability and data by
• 27:35
  Speaker 3: just disbanding things like the maternal mortality boards and counsels
• 27:40
  Speaker 3: because they are telling too much truth and they did
• 27:43
  Speaker 3: not like it. So for us in here in the trenches,
• 27:47
  Speaker 3: such as in the state of Georgia, can you talk
• 27:49
  Speaker 3: to us about how to get the most accurate information
• 27:52
  Speaker 3: about tactics like this, like how we need to be
• 27:55
  Speaker 3: aware that this is one of the bigger ways that
• 27:58
  Speaker 3: they have used against us who are trying to get
• 28:01
  Speaker 3: reproductive access.
• 28:03
  Speaker 4: Well, I think the first thing is, first of all,
• 28:05
  Speaker 4: you have some really I mean consummate experts. The first
• 28:08
  Speaker 4: thing I want to tell people is that when you're
• 28:12
  Speaker 4: elected officials who are not experts in these things, they
• 28:15
  Speaker 4: are not career professionals. Right, I like to tell people
• 28:19
  Speaker 4: all the time. You know that I've worked in government
• 28:21
  Speaker 4: and like, but I've never been a politician. And that's
• 28:24
  Speaker 4: on purpose, because I want to be a civil servant
• 28:29
  Speaker 4: to I want to care for my fellow the folks
• 28:31
  Speaker 4: that I live in and around. So The first thing
• 28:34
  Speaker 4: I would say to folks in Georgia is that, like,
• 28:36
  Speaker 4: you have consummate experts in Fulton County. I mean, I've
• 28:40
  Speaker 4: worked with their population and there, and they do all
• 28:44
  Speaker 4: that they can to do the best work within the
• 28:47
  Speaker 4: confines and the messy confines of the ever chaotic policy
• 28:53
  Speaker 4: that people who want to politicize these things create. So
• 28:59
  Speaker 4: I think the first thing is encouraging people to have
• 29:03
  Speaker 4: we sort of throw the baby out with the bathwater, right,
• 29:06
  Speaker 4: and we're like, Okay, the state of Georgia and it's
• 29:09
  Speaker 4: elected officials have made all of these designs and horrible
• 29:13
  Speaker 4: choices and appointed these terrible leaders or whoever. But we
• 29:17
  Speaker 4: then extend that hatred to anyone who works in these capacities.
• 29:22
  Speaker 4: And a substantial portion of the people that work for
• 29:25
  Speaker 4: you in government work for you. They they really do
• 29:30
  Speaker 4: want to do the best that they can, even in
• 29:32
  Speaker 4: these conditions. And so I think being able to be
• 29:35
  Speaker 4: more precise with our hatreds is the first suggestion I have.
• 29:43
  Speaker 4: Because I'm an a one hater when it comes to
• 29:46
  Speaker 4: a lot of politicians, you know, if they have zero haters,
• 29:50
  Speaker 4: that's not true. Because even in debt, I plan to
• 29:53
  Speaker 4: haunt them. But so, yeah, I think because I see
• 29:58
  Speaker 4: that a lot on TikTok as people be come very
• 30:00
  Speaker 4: like generalizing. They're like, oh, all of pharma is bad,
• 30:04
  Speaker 4: all of the federal government is bad. And it's like, no,
• 30:09
  Speaker 4: there are a number of bioengineers who really want to
• 30:11
  Speaker 4: cure cancer working in pharma. They're not setting the pricing,
• 30:15
  Speaker 4: they're not jacking up, you know, the cost of like
• 30:18
  Speaker 4: obscure random you know, medications that are that they've you know,
• 30:26
  Speaker 4: put a patent on, like they're not doing that. Get
• 30:30
  Speaker 4: with the c suite, you know, and we need people
• 30:34
  Speaker 4: who want to make medications to cure cancer. We need them,
• 30:39
  Speaker 4: so trust. How to be decisive with our hate, with
• 30:42
  Speaker 4: our hateration in the dancery is probably my number one.
• 30:47
  Speaker 3: I wait, I need to note that how to be
• 30:50
  Speaker 3: precise with oteration in the dancery.
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I need to write that down somewhere.
• 30:54
  Speaker 3: You know.
• 30:56
  Speaker 4: I don't want to tell people stout being haters. I
• 30:57
  Speaker 4: want you to. I want you to do this still
• 30:59
  Speaker 4: and full gets your hatred right, and then to also
• 31:03
  Speaker 4: know who's working on behalf of you, who really is
• 31:06
  Speaker 4: and how you how they are, how they're trying to
• 31:08
  Speaker 4: work within that. The other thing I would say is
• 31:10
  Speaker 4: that there are plenty again of like grassroots and larger
• 31:13
  Speaker 4: scale organizations that are collecting this information. So like I
• 31:17
  Speaker 4: know in Philadelphia we have like Pew Trust with there's
• 31:21
  Speaker 4: like the Kaiser Family Foundation, Like these are organizations that
• 31:25
  Speaker 4: their whole business or the whole work that they do
• 31:28
  Speaker 4: is still to produce this well researched like reports on
• 31:33
  Speaker 4: the conditions of these things. And so you may have
• 31:36
  Speaker 4: a look, I don't know specifically for Georgia, but you
• 31:39
  Speaker 4: may have and I would assume you do a like
• 31:44
  Speaker 4: a reproductive justice organization that is collecting that data in
• 31:47
  Speaker 4: some way, shape or form to draft reporting that you
• 31:51
  Speaker 4: all can trust and consume and has peer review to
• 31:55
  Speaker 4: it and et cetera. And it also may then you
• 31:58
  Speaker 4: may have to also become a little renegade and know
• 32:01
  Speaker 4: where to ask for it. I will say this, maybe
• 32:03
  Speaker 4: they dismantled your maternal mortality like what was it your
• 32:08
  Speaker 4: maternal mortality board, But that doesn't mean that your local
• 32:12
  Speaker 4: health departments aren't doing annual reporting. It just made it
• 32:18
  Speaker 4: means that you have to read like your mortality like
• 32:23
  Speaker 4: what do we call them here in Philly? Or in
• 32:26
  Speaker 4: Pennsylvania we call it like we have like a like
• 32:31
  Speaker 4: a report and annual report on deaths and cause of
• 32:35
  Speaker 4: death is still going to be in there, so it
• 32:38
  Speaker 4: may take more. Again, I hate these suggestions always kind
• 32:44
  Speaker 4: of suck because I know that our attention spans are shorter,
• 32:48
  Speaker 4: and so if something's not being handed to us directly,
• 32:51
  Speaker 4: us having to go on a little bit of a
• 32:53
  Speaker 4: hunt is harder for people. But it's going to be
• 32:56
  Speaker 4: so important that we start to stretch our attention spans
• 32:59
  Speaker 4: and be come a little more hunter gatherer unfortunately. But
• 33:03
  Speaker 4: it's there. That's the thing that's important. It's there.
• 33:06
  Speaker 3: Yeah, And I think that's a great reminder I do
• 33:09
  Speaker 3: forget that we sometimes I forget when I look at
• 33:12
  Speaker 3: the big picture about all of the tragic things that
• 33:14
  Speaker 3: are happening, and all are the horrifying things that the
• 33:17
  Speaker 3: local people are doing a lot. We definitely have a
• 33:19
  Speaker 3: friend of the show, part Canaan, who has been working
• 33:22
  Speaker 3: so hard in the state of Georgia trying to get
• 33:25
  Speaker 3: some of these information out. And I know there are
• 33:27
  Speaker 3: local organizations like ARC Southeast here here in Georgia, but
• 33:31
  Speaker 3: it's sometimes like ah, so the focus, So thank you
• 33:34
  Speaker 3: for reminding me about that that local is so important,
• 33:37
  Speaker 3: like we do. We have talked about that quite a bit,
• 33:40
  Speaker 3: but sometimes it's hard to focus.
• 33:42
  Speaker 4: And fund them too. That's the other thing is these
• 33:44
  Speaker 4: organizations because they're not getting federal grants, are because they've
• 33:47
  Speaker 4: given up you know, state grants or whatever. Because they're
• 33:50
  Speaker 4: continuing to do this sort of reporting means that they
• 33:53
  Speaker 4: now are doing it with a less And so I
• 33:56
  Speaker 4: also want to encourage people to fund these local organizations
• 34:00
  Speaker 4: that are doing this work for you on the ground,
• 34:02
  Speaker 4: like in where you are and where you live.
• 34:05
  Speaker 3: No, that's that's definitely a definite because we need these organizations.
• 34:09
  Speaker 3: And with kind of all of this again, recently watching
• 34:13
  Speaker 3: a few of your episodes, you talked about social autopsy
• 34:16
  Speaker 3: and I love that phrasing, and I was like, oh, oh, okay,
• 34:19
  Speaker 3: can you because like the example you gave was people
• 34:23
  Speaker 3: manipulating content in order to cancel someone, So can you
• 34:27
  Speaker 3: kind of talk about what you mean about social autopsy?
• 34:30
  Speaker 1: And I know it's an actual actual term, but new
• 34:32
  Speaker 1: to me.
• 34:34
  Speaker 4: So social autopsy is one of my favorite qualitative methodologies.
• 34:37
  Speaker 4: You don't hear it so much. It was coined by
• 34:40
  Speaker 4: I forget the name of the researchers a sociologist. But
• 34:44
  Speaker 4: you see it in My favorite example is the book Heat,
• 34:47
  Speaker 4: which is a social autopsy, and that's I think the
• 34:49
  Speaker 4: first time you see that word used in a larger scale.
• 34:54
  Speaker 4: But it was about the Chicago heat wave that had
• 34:57
  Speaker 4: really detrimental It's a public health book detrimental effects. And
• 35:01
  Speaker 4: so social autopsy is when you see something has happened
• 35:03
  Speaker 4: and you decide that you are going to sort of
• 35:07
  Speaker 4: unpack what happened and go back in time looking at
• 35:10
  Speaker 4: the pieces that came together for this thing to happen.
• 35:13
  Speaker 4: I'm sure there's language for it. I think in the
• 35:15
  Speaker 4: political realm there's a similar term. I think they use
• 35:18
  Speaker 4: autopsy too, to look at like when there's like a
• 35:21
  Speaker 4: when you've lost a like an election, for example, you
• 35:25
  Speaker 4: look back and say, like, where did we go wrong?
• 35:27
  Speaker 4: What components were in place right? Because there's so many
• 35:31
  Speaker 4: moving parts that contributed to the perfect storm of this moment.
• 35:36
  Speaker 4: And so I encourage people to do a social autopsy
• 35:38
  Speaker 4: on things when before being before being like influenced and
• 35:44
  Speaker 4: the example, I know that the video you're talking about
• 35:46
  Speaker 4: because it was a viral one, and to also point
• 35:49
  Speaker 4: out that like people are not happy with me. People
• 35:52
  Speaker 4: really want to personalize when I do things like that,
• 35:54
  Speaker 4: when I contextualize the timeline, and again, like I'm not
• 36:00
  Speaker 4: pointing out and I think I say it several times,
• 36:01
  Speaker 4: I'm not pointing out whether or I think this person's
• 36:03
  Speaker 4: a good or bad person. I don't live in the
• 36:05
  Speaker 4: world the dichotomist world of good or bad. But I
• 36:07
  Speaker 4: want people to be careful when they make content, and
• 36:10
  Speaker 4: I want people to be careful when they consume it.
• 36:12
  Speaker 4: And so backtracking, so when you come across a video
• 36:15
  Speaker 4: where someone's like clip someone's this is very, very infamous.
• 36:19
  Speaker 4: I see this all the time when it comes to creators,
• 36:22
  Speaker 4: where people clip a certain piece of a video and
• 36:27
  Speaker 4: they clip it and they don't contextualize it, and they
• 36:33
  Speaker 4: don't tag the creator, or they leave out the watermark
• 36:37
  Speaker 4: so that you can go and look at it for yourself,
• 36:39
  Speaker 4: and they know that most people won't. I've had this
• 36:42
  Speaker 4: happen to me too as well, which you know, like
• 36:44
  Speaker 4: it's been absurd. But I want to encourage people to
• 36:48
  Speaker 4: not just take people at the clip, go and consume
• 36:53
  Speaker 4: the entire video, because in this podcast, for example, in
• 36:59
  Speaker 4: this exact moment, I could say, you know, well, everybody sucks,
• 37:02
  Speaker 4: and if you only clipped everybody sucks, then you would
• 37:06
  Speaker 4: be like Evan's anti humanist.
• 37:08
  Speaker 3: You know.
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: I agree, though, advice if you.
• 37:13
  Speaker 4: Put it, if you put it in context and realize
• 37:17
  Speaker 4: it was an example statement that I made, then you
• 37:20
  Speaker 4: realize that it's not that I'm anti humanist. Again. I
• 37:24
  Speaker 4: want to encourage people. I know it's so easy to do,
• 37:26
  Speaker 4: especially when we're on social media or when we're consuming
• 37:30
  Speaker 4: media which is just endless scrolling, and we're sort of
• 37:33
  Speaker 4: doing it to be a little mindless. I want to
• 37:35
  Speaker 4: encourage people to stop and say, like, okay, well, if
• 37:38
  Speaker 4: this is catching my eye, I should take that extra
• 37:41
  Speaker 4: step and like search up the original video or click
• 37:44
  Speaker 4: on the original video and watch it end to end
• 37:47
  Speaker 4: and come to my own conclusions. Because there's a reason
• 37:50
  Speaker 4: why someone has clipped somebody the way they have, and
• 37:53
  Speaker 4: I think that's it can be really cool. It can
• 37:55
  Speaker 4: be accidental. I don't know. I'm not going to impose that.
• 37:58
  Speaker 3: But yeah, yeah, that's and there's a lot and to
• 38:04
  Speaker 3: take the time to actually take an autopsy, as is implied,
• 38:07
  Speaker 3: is a whole other manner.
• 38:09
  Speaker 4: Well, it's all there. I think That's the other thing too,
• 38:10
  Speaker 4: is using all the tools that are there, Like, is
• 38:13
  Speaker 4: this something someone said in response to this? I see
• 38:15
  Speaker 4: this all. I see this often too when people are
• 38:17
  Speaker 4: like a number of creators recently have been complaining about
• 38:20
  Speaker 4: this where people have been chastising them for things they
• 38:23
  Speaker 4: did not do, and it's because people didn't look at
• 38:26
  Speaker 4: things like timestamps. One of the things that's really important
• 38:29
  Speaker 4: to think about with like Instagram and TikTok, and it's
• 38:32
  Speaker 4: very very popular now, is that your FYP, your newsfeed,
• 38:37
  Speaker 4: whatever it's called, is asynchronous, which means that if you're
• 38:41
  Speaker 4: scrolling and you've come across a video where a creator
• 38:45
  Speaker 4: is crying and saying, oh, someone's you know, I've been
• 38:48
  Speaker 4: someone's been talking mean about me and they you know,
• 38:51
  Speaker 4: they've they doxed me and and have been critiquing how
• 38:57
  Speaker 4: I painted my living room walls. And then you scroll
• 39:00
  Speaker 4: for a little while and you come across another creator
• 39:03
  Speaker 4: who is talking about like, oh, you know, I had
• 39:06
  Speaker 4: to hold somebody account all the other day and it
• 39:08
  Speaker 4: was really difficult, but you know it was important to
• 39:13
  Speaker 4: like connect and like and they're talking in it. Those
• 39:17
  Speaker 4: videos aren't necessarily connected to each other but we can
• 39:21
  Speaker 4: make a lot of assumptions based on thinking that those
• 39:24
  Speaker 4: people have a relationship, based on thinking that those one
• 39:28
  Speaker 4: person's talking about the other because one video followed the other,
• 39:30
  Speaker 4: and that's not true. The other thing that's really tricky
• 39:33
  Speaker 4: on TikTok is that little like suggested search bar, And
• 39:37
  Speaker 4: it's so strange because it'll suggest things that are really
• 39:41
  Speaker 4: unrelated to the content, but you then think it is.
• 39:45
  Speaker 4: So it'll be like, you know, a man killed by
• 39:46
  Speaker 4: elephant and you're like, wait a minute, is this video
• 39:49
  Speaker 4: about a man that was killed by an elephant? And
• 39:51
  Speaker 4: you're like, So, to not be spoon fed things, but
• 39:55
  Speaker 4: to actually be proactive. Look at timestamps on videos, look
• 40:00
  Speaker 4: at the way someone's dressed. You can usually tell if
• 40:03
  Speaker 4: a creator made a bundle of videos and then you know,
• 40:06
  Speaker 4: release them over a course of several hours or days.
• 40:09
  Speaker 4: Look at all of those things before you hop to
• 40:11
  Speaker 4: a judgment or relate things to each other.
• 40:17
  Speaker 3: Good advice And then, of course, also you've done a
• 40:20
  Speaker 3: series about trusted resources, can you give us a quick
• 40:24
  Speaker 3: rundown on how to vet for a good trusted resource?
• 40:30
  Speaker 4: Online is now it's getting more and more difficult. I
• 40:36
  Speaker 4: always like to encourage people to first start with looking
• 40:39
  Speaker 4: for open access journal articles or research and reports. And
• 40:44
  Speaker 4: the reason why it's not because I think that those
• 40:47
  Speaker 4: entities are like smarter than everybody else whatever. It's because
• 40:51
  Speaker 4: the process is arduous to get something published in like
• 40:56
  Speaker 4: Gamma or like you know, the Disabilities Core literally or
• 41:00
  Speaker 4: any of these journals these like med or their stem
• 41:06
  Speaker 4: style journals, or even on like a website like NASUM,
• 41:10
  Speaker 4: which is like the National something Science Education and Medicine.
• 41:15
  Speaker 4: These entities have a high standard for peer review. Does
• 41:19
  Speaker 4: this mean everything? Does you know? Some stuff gets by?
• 41:22
  Speaker 4: And that's there's all sorts of reasons why nepotism can
• 41:26
  Speaker 4: be one, cronyism can be one, but a high standard
• 41:31
  Speaker 4: of peer review. The next thing I will say is
• 41:34
  Speaker 4: that if you cannot find an open access article from
• 41:37
  Speaker 4: a reputable journal, to also look at citations that people
• 41:42
  Speaker 4: have used. So I even say this with books because
• 41:45
  Speaker 4: people don't realize that. You're like, I see people do
• 41:48
  Speaker 4: this all the time and they're like, oh, I learned
• 41:50
  Speaker 4: it in a book, and I'm like, yeah, well, books
• 41:51
  Speaker 4: are edited, but they're not peer reviewed and it and
• 41:57
  Speaker 4: that's really hard to say because there are some books
• 41:59
  Speaker 4: I love, but they are biased. They're they're designed with bias.
• 42:03
  Speaker 4: And so when you're reading a book that was a
• 42:06
  Speaker 4: research project, because oftentimes people will turn their research into
• 42:09
  Speaker 4: a book, I see that with I think it's Catherine
• 42:13
  Speaker 4: Eden's Living on two dollars a day is a good example.
• 42:17
  Speaker 4: She makes turns her ethnography, which is a research project,
• 42:20
  Speaker 4: into a book. But she also cite has citations in
• 42:24
  Speaker 4: her bibliography. Right, So explore the citations, because that's going
• 42:28
  Speaker 4: to tell you a whole lot of how reputable something
• 42:31
  Speaker 4: is is did they cite their work correctly? And who
• 42:34
  Speaker 4: did they cite? If they started to cite a bunch
• 42:36
  Speaker 4: of gobbledegook, you know, then yeah, that's that starts to
• 42:39
  Speaker 4: give you a hint. I see this a lot on
• 42:42
  Speaker 4: like pseudo intellectual or pseudoscientific materials and disinformation websites. They'll
• 42:48
  Speaker 4: have citations, and their citations are actually cyclical or circular,
• 42:54
  Speaker 4: so they'll cite themselves a lot, they'll cite other people
• 42:57
  Speaker 4: that have cited them, so often do a lot of
• 43:01
  Speaker 4: back and forth citation that mimics scientific research, but it's
• 43:06
  Speaker 4: not real. And then the other thing I will say
• 43:08
  Speaker 4: is that you know, if you can look for things
• 43:11
  Speaker 4: that are posted to reputable institutions, so universities is always
• 43:16
  Speaker 4: a really good one. Universities love to post sourcing. You
• 43:20
  Speaker 4: can always check with your local library, librarians or I
• 43:23
  Speaker 4: don't know why we've lost the love of librarians, but
• 43:26
  Speaker 4: librarians are actually really great sources to ask because they're
• 43:31
  Speaker 4: taught library science, so they're taught to identify effective and
• 43:35
  Speaker 4: ineffective sourcing. And a lot of people don't realize this
• 43:39
  Speaker 4: is that if there is a resource that you that's
• 43:41
  Speaker 4: behind a paywall, you can request it from your local
• 43:44
  Speaker 4: library and they can access it for free for you.
• 43:47
  Speaker 4: So if there's like a research like paper that you
• 43:50
  Speaker 4: want to get a hold of, your local librarian can
• 43:53
  Speaker 4: get it for you and you can request it. There's
• 43:55
  Speaker 4: no cost to you, and I think there might be
• 43:58
  Speaker 4: a printing cost if you want it printed. I don't
• 44:00
  Speaker 4: know with each library, but yeah, library like library science.
• 44:04
  Speaker 4: We have to lean into your librarians. They are Please
• 44:08
  Speaker 4: let's in twenty twenty five, let's rediscover the magic of librarians.
• 44:12
  Speaker 3: Thanks coming back around. I think it's trending because we
• 44:14
  Speaker 3: love some libraries right here.
• 44:16
  Speaker 4: We love and library scientists you.
• 44:19
  Speaker 1: Know, they have awful masters of them. What they have
• 44:23
  Speaker 1: to go through isn't tend.
• 44:24
  Speaker 4: If there's anybody who knows citation, it is them, like ask.
• 44:28
  Speaker 1: Them go to research advice. That's why you're here.
• 44:34
  Speaker 2: Oh, that's awesome.
• 44:36
  Speaker 4: We do love libraries.
• 44:38
  Speaker 1: We're here.
• 44:38
  Speaker 2: We love libraries. So you already gave us some examples.
• 44:52
  Speaker 2: But going off that question, who are some people that
• 44:55
  Speaker 2: you would recommend for us and our listeners to follow
• 44:59
  Speaker 2: or seek out?
• 45:00
  Speaker 4: Well, it is Black History Month and I am a bioethicist,
• 45:04
  Speaker 4: so I would be remiss if I didn't shout out
• 45:06
  Speaker 4: some amazing great bioethicis and people who do work that
• 45:11
  Speaker 4: I like to say is bioethical in theory. Right, some
• 45:14
  Speaker 4: of them are sociologists, but that's okay. We all hang out.
• 45:19
  Speaker 4: We're all girls. You know. Some of my favorite is
• 45:21
  Speaker 4: doctor Keisherat. Doctor Kisherre is a bioethicis. She is the
• 45:25
  Speaker 4: person who's coined the concept black bioethics. She wrote I
• 45:30
  Speaker 4: think her book is called Black Bioethics, The Black Bioethics
• 45:33
  Speaker 4: Reader or something like that. The amazing thing about doctor
• 45:36
  Speaker 4: Keisherret's work, anything that she's published, is actually published at
• 45:40
  Speaker 4: a very accessible reading level. So her the book that
• 45:45
  Speaker 4: she has about Black bioethics is written at like a
• 45:48
  Speaker 4: sixth grade reading level. It's very consumable and you can
• 45:51
  Speaker 4: learn very easily, and it's very interesting. She's also the
• 45:54
  Speaker 4: editor for the blog Bioethics Today, so I also want
• 45:58
  Speaker 4: to encourage people to explore Bioeths Today if you're curious
• 46:01
  Speaker 4: about bioethics. There's all sorts of bioethicists talking about all
• 46:04
  Speaker 4: sorts of things in that blog. It's so fascinating. I
• 46:07
  Speaker 4: love reading it. I have some of my favorites up there.
• 46:11
  Speaker 4: I've also written for them on occasion, shameless plug. The
• 46:18
  Speaker 4: other one is, of course Dorothy Roberts. Doctor Dorothy Roberts
• 46:23
  Speaker 4: is a sociologist but also a bioethicist, and she's written
• 46:27
  Speaker 4: Killing the Black Body, and she talks a lot about
• 46:29
  Speaker 4: maternal mortality and black maternal health. She is like one
• 46:35
  Speaker 4: of the chairs here and you Penn in Philadelphia, so
• 46:38
  Speaker 4: very very close. Very one day I'll cross her path.
• 46:41
  Speaker 4: One day I'll be important enough to know her. Harriet Washington.
• 46:46
  Speaker 4: A lot of people know Harriet Washington's work because she
• 46:48
  Speaker 4: wrote Medical Apartheid, which sort of put Black bioethics conceptually
• 46:53
  Speaker 4: on the map because it was such a best selling
• 46:56
  Speaker 4: book and so many people cite it in like African
• 46:59
  Speaker 4: American history. But she also does an amazing series of
• 47:03
  Speaker 4: writing on things like consent, and so I want to
• 47:07
  Speaker 4: encourage people to write her up to read her other books.
• 47:10
  Speaker 4: And she also has a book about environmental health and
• 47:14
  Speaker 4: Black Black disparities in health. So she's really great to
• 47:20
  Speaker 4: explore beyond medical apartheid, which you should read. And then
• 47:24
  Speaker 4: the last one I want to mention is Ruha Benjamin.
• 47:27
  Speaker 4: And the last two is rue Benjamin is a really
• 47:31
  Speaker 4: great sociologist who talks a lot about inequality in tech.
• 47:36
  Speaker 4: She talks a lot about things like algorithms and bias,
• 47:40
  Speaker 4: race based tech and science. She talks a lot about
• 47:46
  Speaker 4: she I think she's been more exploring more things like
• 47:48
  Speaker 4: AI and the disparity of AI and things like labor
• 47:51
  Speaker 4: and labor disparities and labor oppression. And then there's a
• 47:56
  Speaker 4: Landra Nelson. And the reason why I bring up a
• 47:58
  Speaker 4: Landa Nelson is because I feel like I her all
• 48:00
  Speaker 4: the time. In February, because she wrote the entire book
• 48:05
  Speaker 4: Body and Soul about the Black Panthers health justice work,
• 48:09
  Speaker 4: and she just I mean end to end. The amount
• 48:12
  Speaker 4: of work that the Black Panthers endeavored in health justice
• 48:16
  Speaker 4: is not talked about enough, and it makes me so
• 48:18
  Speaker 4: ill because it's like their consummate, like magnum opus work.
• 48:22
  Speaker 4: And we just constantly bring up the fact that they
• 48:24
  Speaker 4: like marched around in like black beerys and like guns,
• 48:28
  Speaker 4: which is fine, like that, you know, militancy is you know,
• 48:31
  Speaker 4: this is not a judgment on that. But the longer
• 48:34
  Speaker 4: standing work has been their work in health justice. Some
• 48:37
  Speaker 4: of the clinics that they set up in the nineteen
• 48:40
  Speaker 4: seventies are still operating today and they are the reason
• 48:45
  Speaker 4: why we have some of the more systemic public health
• 48:47
  Speaker 4: designs around things like testing for sickle cell or doing
• 48:51
  Speaker 4: lead testing in homes. They design those systems and the
• 48:55
  Speaker 4: US government federally adopted those designs later on. So Laundry
• 48:59
  Speaker 4: Nelson's book, she is a a sociologist as well. She
• 49:04
  Speaker 4: put it all together at the history of the Black
• 49:06
  Speaker 4: Panthers in Health Justice. So explore her work for sure.
• 49:10
  Speaker 1: Trying to get all this new.
• 49:14
  Speaker 3: You see me like pulling up the names, like yep,
• 49:16
  Speaker 3: got get that book, Gotta get this book, and gotta
• 49:18
  Speaker 3: get this one making us but.
• 49:22
  Speaker 4: It gets good.
• 49:26
  Speaker 3: And you know what, with all of this, I again
• 49:30
  Speaker 3: I told you at the very beginning, I'm so impressed
• 49:33
  Speaker 3: by the fact that you come in in these really
• 49:35
  Speaker 3: deep and hard conversations and do it with such eloquence.
• 49:41
  Speaker 3: But not only but like calm. The calm is what
• 49:44
  Speaker 3: I'm most impressed by. I honestly like you do it
• 49:46
  Speaker 3: as an educator. I'm sure you're like, yeah, this is
• 49:49
  Speaker 3: what we do. Uh. When I read things like this
• 49:51
  Speaker 3: and it feels like injustice, I go on a rampage
• 49:54
  Speaker 3: post coursing, maybe my face turning red. And you do
• 49:58
  Speaker 3: it in such a way that's so educational. So it's approachable,
• 50:01
  Speaker 3: in a way that even though it takes me a
• 50:04
  Speaker 3: few few listens to really grasp it, it makes me
• 50:08
  Speaker 3: want to learn more. But with that, I know it
• 50:11
  Speaker 3: has to be stressful. I know this work is stressful.
• 50:14
  Speaker 1: I know this timing is really really, really stressful.
• 50:19
  Speaker 3: So with all of that, we always have to ask,
• 50:22
  Speaker 3: what do you do when you need to take a break.
• 50:24
  Speaker 3: What is your Uh I'm not gonna say necessarily like
• 50:27
  Speaker 3: self care, but.
• 50:28
  Speaker 1: What how do you detox when you do that?
• 50:30
  Speaker 4: I I'm a lover and a traveler usually, but when
• 50:33
  Speaker 4: I can't afford that's high brow stuff, you know. But
• 50:39
  Speaker 4: when I'm really trying to, like you said, detox and
• 50:43
  Speaker 4: relax out, I really am a huge lover of graphic novels.
• 50:48
  Speaker 4: I love reading graphic novels. I love independent pressings I have.
• 50:54
  Speaker 4: I love the illustrations. I love all sorts of like
• 50:58
  Speaker 4: sci fi based one. I mean, there's this so much.
• 51:00
  Speaker 4: The graphic novel world is so fascinating because growing up
• 51:04
  Speaker 4: is like a little black queer like a fab nerd.
• 51:09
  Speaker 4: One of the first places I could see myself like
• 51:11
  Speaker 4: reflected as like an interesting character was actually in comic
• 51:14
  Speaker 4: books and in and maybe not specifically in all those ways.
• 51:19
  Speaker 4: But the first time I saw queer people as like
• 51:23
  Speaker 4: interesting dynamic, not just villains and like coded villains, was
• 51:27
  Speaker 4: like in comic books, especially independent ones, and it's only
• 51:33
  Speaker 4: gotten better since then. I would say that a lot
• 51:35
  Speaker 4: of the comic book world, weirdly enough, is like twenty
• 51:38
  Speaker 4: years ahead of us when it comes to like perception
• 51:41
  Speaker 4: and how we display certain groups. That's not to say
• 51:46
  Speaker 4: that there's not comic book artists and writers who are
• 51:48
  Speaker 4: like absolute jerks, but you can find your story, and
• 51:54
  Speaker 4: I could. I could find my story pretty early on
• 51:57
  Speaker 4: in comic books, and I just never stopped loving any
• 52:00
  Speaker 4: exploring them. So they usually when I'm like done with
• 52:03
  Speaker 4: the day, I like to go through my very extensive
• 52:09
  Speaker 4: and embarrassingly like organized graphic novel and comic book collection
• 52:13
  Speaker 4: and like reread things. And then I also sometimes like
• 52:17
  Speaker 4: to read things that are more amorphic or like more
• 52:21
  Speaker 4: like I love culture. I love learning about different groups
• 52:25
  Speaker 4: and populations and history and so like right now, I'm
• 52:29
  Speaker 4: currently reading a book about heaven and Hell and the
• 52:32
  Speaker 4: way that heaven and hell have been imagined across the world,
• 52:37
  Speaker 4: and it says a lot about the human condition for
• 52:39
  Speaker 4: how we imagine heaven and hell or paradise and purgatory,
• 52:45
  Speaker 4: and it's been very fascinating. Pretty quickly, you.
• 52:49
  Speaker 3: Fit into our world, Annie's I'm like over here chopping
• 52:52
  Speaker 3: at the book because we love a good comic graphic
• 52:55
  Speaker 3: novel it I love it.
• 52:57
  Speaker 2: We do. And Samantha knows a lot about religions, so fits.
• 53:02
  Speaker 1: Like I said, month every week, come on the way that.
• 53:05
  Speaker 4: We could sit here and talk about what I just
• 53:07
  Speaker 4: learned about, which was infernal cartography.
• 53:10
  Speaker 3: Please please okay, no, we don't have time stop why
• 53:16
  Speaker 3: so that means we get to have.
• 53:23
  Speaker 2: Yes, you should definitely come back. We would oh gosh.
• 53:27
  Speaker 1: I wouldn't talk about every.
• 53:28
  Speaker 4: Day every day.
• 53:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we'll negotiate it later later, But in the meantime,
• 53:37
  Speaker 2: where can the good listeners find you?
• 53:40
  Speaker 4: They can find me on TikTok I am Evan the bioethicist.
• 53:44
  Speaker 4: E v n the bioethicist on TikTok I come up
• 53:47
  Speaker 4: right away if you google bioethics. I think I'm the
• 53:50
  Speaker 4: only person that uses that hashtag sadness. And then the
• 53:54
  Speaker 4: other place that I've recently started to build up is
• 53:56
  Speaker 4: a Patreon. There is a free side of it, like
• 53:58
  Speaker 4: a free membership. I don't like paid barriers. There is
• 54:01
  Speaker 4: a five dollars supporter membership that people can get into
• 54:05
  Speaker 4: if they want to get like longer form more like
• 54:11
  Speaker 4: curated content that I'm working on now. It's not up
• 54:13
  Speaker 4: there yet, but I'm working on now, but it will
• 54:15
  Speaker 4: be behind that five dollars a month little minimum paywall,
• 54:18
  Speaker 4: and that's mainly to pay for trying to produce like
• 54:22
  Speaker 4: higher quality more than me just talking at my phone content.
• 54:26
  Speaker 4: If people aren't into TikTok I just repost the tiktoks
• 54:29
  Speaker 4: to the free membership section of Patreon. A lot of
• 54:31
  Speaker 4: people like that better because sometimes people don't like you know,
• 54:36
  Speaker 4: TikTok's a blessing and a curse, and when things go viral,
• 54:38
  Speaker 4: you can end up with a lot of really terrible
• 54:42
  Speaker 4: vibes in the comments section and what have you. So
• 54:46
  Speaker 4: a lot of my softer hearted I want to say,
• 54:50
  Speaker 4: followers who want less of that static noise that TikTok
• 54:54
  Speaker 4: can produce, like to go to Patreon and interact with
• 54:57
  Speaker 4: Patreon instead, because those are people who are intentionally there,
• 54:59
  Speaker 4: you know, So find either one. I'm the same on
• 55:02
  Speaker 4: both platforms.
• 55:04
  Speaker 2: Oh yes, I'm going to check that out. Listeners, you
• 55:07
  Speaker 2: should check it out as well. Thank you so much
• 55:09
  Speaker 2: Evan for joining us today. It's been in delight and yes,
• 55:13
  Speaker 2: come back, come back anytime.
• 55:15
  Speaker 4: I love it. I'm interested. We could talk about the
• 55:18
  Speaker 4: non bioethics or professional things too. I'm into it. But
• 55:21
  Speaker 4: thanks for having me.
• 55:22
  Speaker 3: Yes, we'll just have an Evan corner like where you
• 55:24
  Speaker 3: come in at every so often a lot actually, I
• 55:30
  Speaker 3: love it.
• 55:32
  Speaker 2: But Listeners. In the meantime, if you would like to
• 55:33
  Speaker 2: contact us, you can you can email us at Hello
• 55:36
  Speaker 2: at stuff onever told you dot com. You can find
• 55:38
  Speaker 2: us on Blue Sky at most of a Podcast, or
• 55:40
  Speaker 2: on Instagram and TikTok at stuff one Never told you.
• 55:43
  Speaker 2: We're us on YouTube, We have a tea public store,
• 55:45
  Speaker 2: and we have book you can get wherever you get
• 55:46
  Speaker 2: your books. Thanks as always to our super producer, contenior
• 55:49
  Speaker 2: executive producer Maya and our contributor Joey.
• 55:51
  Speaker 1: Thank you and thanks to you for listening stuff I
• 55:53
  Speaker 1: Never told you.
• 55:54
  Speaker 2: Use production to by Heart Radio. For more podcast with
• 55:56
  Speaker 2: my Heart Radio, you can check out the art Radio app,
• 55:57
  Speaker 2: Apple Podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
• 56:04
  Speaker 3: Ye