Latest / CEOs and ABCs / Brandon Coleman III (Cotton Patch Cafe, TGI Fridays, Dave & Buster's), A Conversation in Leading Turnarounds, Culture and the Importance of Presence in Parenting #006

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Brandon Coleman III (Cotton Patch Cafe, TGI Fridays, Dave & Buster's), A Conversation in Leading Turnarounds, Culture and the Importance of Presence in Parenting #006 · CEOs and ABCs

• 0:00
  Brandon Coleman III: I want to start by saying I think the more dangerous thing isn't the big moments. The more dangerous thing is the constant bleed. We overestimate what we can do in a day and underestimate what we can do in a year. To have a culture like that, that is a winning culture because you can now draw on the experience. I think that our families judge us by who we are with them, the cultures, the whole thing about Turnarounds.
• 0:28
  Kevin Rice: Welcome to CEOs and ABCs. Real stories from execs who lead at work and show up at home. Career moves, parenting, wins and fails, and everything in between. I'm your host, Kevin Rice. Here's today's episode. Welcome back to CEOs and ABCs. We've got an amazing guest today. I first met Brandon when he was the CMO of Dave and Buster's during COVID It was a brutal time for the restaurant industry, especially for a brand built on gathering. What stood out was his energy, his clarity, and his ability to rally his team in the middle of a storm. Over nearly two decades, he's led some of the most recognizable names in the hospitality industry, from Macaroni Grill, Del Friscos, Dave and Busters TGI Fridays. And now serves as the CEO of Cotton Patch Cafe with a bold goal to become Texas's largest comfort food provider by 2030. Known for transforming brands and driving record growth, Brandon also leads with heart, serving on the board of Giving Kitchen and championing community impact across Texas. And while he's led in the boardroom, he's just as proud of the role he plays at home as a father and a husband. He shares openly about the lessons he learns in both worlds. My guest today is Brandon Coleman. Brandon, thank you so much for being here.
• 1:42
  Brandon Coleman III: Thank you so much, Kevin, for having me.
• 1:44
  Kevin Rice: It's great to see you. It has been a while. I think the last time we saw each other in person was 2020. How have you been? How's life? Before we jump into, like, career and accomplishments and awards, you know, tell us a little bit about life outside the office.
• 1:59
  Brandon Coleman III: Well, thank you so much, Kevin. It's been a wild four years since 2021, and a lot of great things, but life is good. My. My kids are 8 and 4 years old. They're both in the same school now here in Dallas, and just so happy at how they're. They're growing and developing. And they are two very wild boys that are a lot of fun, we'll put it that way, as a positive spin. They do swing from the rafters and Jump from the couches. And you know, they're, they're, they're wild boys, but they're a lot of fun.
• 2:30
  Kevin Rice: I, I know the feeling. I know the life. My kids are 9, 5 and then 15 months. So the 9 and 5 year old go pretty crazy too. It's, it's a lot of fun though. Like if you let loose and just kind of realize that this is that stage of life and that's part of growing up as two boys, like, there's going to be sibling rivalry, they're going to be pushing back, but that's just part of the development process and it can certainly be a lot of fun too.
• 2:58
  Brandon Coleman III: Beth Myers has a great bit on two versus three kids and how he always, he has two kids and he always wants to hang out with the people who have three kids. Because by the time you get to three kids, you know, there's grandfather clocks crashing down in the other room and the parents are like, would you like some more wine? Let's just hang out. You're like, not a big deal once you get to three, but the parents who have one are too worried about the one. And so definitely feel that with the two.
• 3:23
  Speaker C: Right.
• 3:23
  Kevin Rice: Like we've entered that like, more rambunctious and more wild stage. And you do have to. That's great advice. You have to like just let it flow and really identify what's important.
• 3:33
  Brandon Coleman III: Right.
• 3:34
  Brandon Coleman III: Like you can't let them run the house, but you can't control everything they do either. You gotta find the key kind of values of your family and, and focus in on those.
• 3:43
  Kevin Rice: Yeah. Values, boundaries, expectations. So managing a household is a lot like managing an office. Sometimes with a little bit less Nerf guns. You know, screaming, yelling and Nerf guns and. Yeah. Legos.
• 3:58
  Brandon Coleman III: Yeah.
• 3:59
  Kevin Rice: Thank you for sharing a little bit about your family. What are some of your passions right now? You know, what excites you? What gives life purpose?
• 4:07
  Brandon Coleman III: Yeah, I think the thing they really, we constantly come back to as a family and my, my wife and I are, are really big on is the outdoors. We love getting outdoors. We just got back from Colorado for the summer and had an amazing time there. Whether it's golf, whether it's hiking, whether it's fly fishing or just simply being outdoors. We're, we're big outdoors people and, and that's what brings us a lot of calm and a lot of confidence and kind of re. Energizes us to, to take on the workloads that we have. So, so I think outdoors is probably number one outside of that. Just exercise and being active.
• 4:42
  Kevin Rice: Beautiful.
• 4:43
  Brandon Coleman III: Yeah.
• 4:43
  Kevin Rice: I think getting kids outdoors, especially two boys at our kids ages, is like the ultimate parenting hack.
• 4:50
  Brandon Coleman III: Yes.
• 4:51
  Kevin Rice: There's a great quote. I don't know who said it, but it's something like if the kids are bouncing off the walls, take away the walls.
• 4:57
  Brandon Coleman III: Oh, that's great. I would love that.
• 4:58
  Kevin Rice: Just getting them outside where they can be kids. And plus they're grounding. It's regulating their nervous system. You know, when we get outside and spend hours at the beach or hiking or just playing in the woods, my evenings are so much easier.
• 5:14
  Brandon Coleman III: Yeah, absolutely. I think that's, that's, that's great advice. I love the taking down the walls. That's, you know, they burn the energy, but you're right, there's also a grounded, a grounding effect for them being outdoors and in the.
• 5:27
  Kevin Rice: Yeah. When we look at your career, kind of reads like a roadmap of success in the hospitality industry. You've led some of the most recognizable brands across the country, and you've done it while navigating a lot of moments of change. So I'd love to start by kind of zooming out a little bit and if you think back across your journey, what's a moment that changed you as a leader or, you know, maybe a conversation, a win or even a failure that kind of shaped who you are today?
• 5:55
  Brandon Coleman III: Absolutely. It's, it's actually, it's a moment. It's a. It's a loss that turned into a win, it's a failure. It's. It's so much all wrapped up in one beautiful moment that I'd love to share with you and your audience. When I came, I started off in New York City doing advertising, working for McCain Erickson and working on clients like Intel, L', Oreal InBet, global clients, big campaigns. Got this incredible opportunity to come work with Norman Abdal and Creed Ford at Johnny Carino's. And it was one of our first campaigns that we were launching. And, you know, I was the big ad guy from New York, and I was very young, overly confident, and just thought that this new Italian road trip campaign that we had come up with was just going to blow the socks off the restaurant industry. And so it was the first day of launch and I went into the restaurant after we had done all this amazing work, shot some great spots, had a fully integrated campaign, and I went into the restaurant and I sat down for lunch and I went to the server and I said, I'd like to order this Italian road trip. And she goes Oh, I wouldn't. I wouldn't do that. Corporate's making us do that. Matter of fact, I'd do this, do this, and do that. So I said, oh. And I said, okay. And so I ordered what she recommended, and I sat at the table for an exceptionally long period of time until the service had died down. And then I called the server over, and I was like, I'm sorry. Like, you said that you wouldn't recommend this Italian road trip, like. And corporate made you do that. I'm. I'm in charge of marketing, and I'm just trying to figure out what happened here. And she goes, oh, my gosh, I'm so sorry. No, I'm so sorry. I should have voted. I said, no, no, no. Like, I truly am seeking to understand what. What went wrong. Why would you not recommend this? And she kind of paused and looked at me like, are you trying to catch me? Like, am I in trouble? And I was like, seriously, just tell me what you think. And so she. She went into it. And I think for a business that is heavily reliant upon service like. Like the restaurant industry and relying upon team members in the field, I had missed a big component. I had treated this like it was a cpg and it was just a product that was going to be out there when really this was something that had to be executed and delivered upon. And I had to think not only about the customer, which I thought in depth about, but about the team that has to deliver it. And so that was a big turning point for me as a leader, initially just on the fact of considering the team. But they grew more to be, you know, the empathy and understanding for everything that's involved in getting a product live and getting a campaign live. And how do you maximize the return and the efficacy through understanding each person's role in that campaign. And so that was a huge moment for me and very early in my career, fortunately, because I had some mentors that trusted me to take on the head of marketing at. I don't know, I think I was 24 or 25. They made me lie about my age, so I forgot how old I was at one point. But regardless, the point is they gave me an opportunity to fail. I failed by not considering what the team. The impact of the team, and that became such a huge lesson for me to carry forward.
• 9:00
  Kevin Rice: That's an incredible lesson in humility and realizing that, you know, you don't know everything, even today.
• 9:06
  Brandon Coleman III: Right.
• 9:06
  Kevin Rice: I mean, obviously, when you're younger, you're a little bit more green to whatever industry you're in. But even later in our career, we're still learning lessons of humility because we don't know everything, and that's why we have teams. And the greatest, you know, the best leaders really lean on their teams for their strengths. How do you carry this lesson forward with you today as the CEO of Cotton Patch Cafe?
• 9:26
  Brandon Coleman III: Yeah, I ask a lot of questions about how is this going to impact the team, how's it going to impact the guests? How's it going to impact cost of goods sold? How is it going to impact, you know, our labor for the back of the house? I think anything that we do has. It may be a point solution, meaning that it may be we're doing this just for the guest, but it has impact across the brand and different constituencies. So we really take a balanced shareholder approach. I would say that the way that it's evolved into my leadership now as a CEO is we look at how does everything impact the team, the guest, and the shareholder? And there's a lot of brands out there that say if we do all the right things for the team and the guests, the shareholder will take care of itself. I do believe that you have to have an awareness of the shareholder, right? Like, you have to have. You have to have some level of thoughtfulness around, hey, we could do the best team for the team and the guests, but we could still go out of business. Like, that's. That's a reality if you. In the restaurant industry, when you're operating on such thin margins. So I do believe it has to be a balanced stakeholder approach in which you consider all three. And then there's others that consider community or.
• 10:35
  Kevin Rice: Or.
• 10:36
  Brandon Coleman III: Or partners as a separate entity in those stakeholders. And for me, I lump the community into the guests, and I lump the partners into the team. If we have a partnership with somebody, somebody's a provider, they're part of our team, and we need to treat them that way. So we look at a balanced stakeholder approach, and everything has to be at least a yellow. And we. If we. We can't do all yellows, we got to have one. At least one green, right? So if we propose a new idea and it is geared at the guests, and we have a green on the guest, we have a yellow on the team, and we have a red on the shareholder, we go back to the drawing board and say, how do we make it a yellow, at least a neutral for the shareholder, right? If we propose a new idea for the shareholder, and it's like, oh, if we're going to make so much money. But this is a yellow or a red or excuse me, a red for the guest and yellow for the team. Then we have to go back and we have to think about how do we make this right for the guest. Maybe take less profit for the shareholder, but we're making it right for the guests. We're making it right for the team. And I think that's been a huge part of our success at Cotton Patch Cafe. We had gone through some tough period during COVID and we had done a lot of cost cutting. And one of the first things we did is said, okay, we're not going to just cut cost to cut costs. We're going to come in with this balanced stakeholder approach, focus on how do we improve the team, the guest and the shareholders experience in this through a balanced stakeholder model. And we've been able to do that. We've been able to increase portion sizes for the guest. We've been able to lower prices for the guest. We introduced a 999 value meal available every day for the guest. We are taking care of our team members by introducing more benefits. We've introduced a profit sharing program. We've increased salaries for our team members. So we've done a lot as far as building up the team and building up the guests. And that has resulted in a shareholder return where we've done 15 x what we what we started out at before I got here. So we're in a great position at Cotton Patch Cafe because of this kind of balanced stakeholder approach and kind of tying that all back. It really started with that understanding of thinking about others and then bringing that into an approach that is a more comprehensive leadership. You know, one of the things that you mentioned was it's really up to our teams. A lot of times it's leading a team, getting a team to really step up and take ownership and accountability. And so how I do that today is I ask what the team thinks first.
• 13:02
  Kevin Rice: Right.
• 13:02
  Brandon Coleman III: I should be the last one to talk in every meeting. We know that our guiding principles are this balanced stakeholder model. But my role as a CEO is to say, well, what does the team think about this? Well, which way do you think we should go? Have you thought about how this affects the guests? Have you thought about how this affects the team, the shareholders, etc. And ask those probing questions. You know, I sat at a Jocko Wilnick conference. Echelon front, I think, is his company. And one of the things he really preach was that an idea that your team comes up with Even if you think, as a CEO who's been there, done that, if you think it's a 85% of an idea and you think you could get them to 95% by just changing their idea, he said, you know, ask the questions to get them to see what you see. And even if they don't see what you see, let them run with the 85%. Because the 85%, first of all, you're not guaranteed to be right. A lot of times we have that bias as a CEO. I've seen this before. You know, we've done this. So first of all, you're not guaranteed to be right. Second of all, you're giving the team the accountability for their own idea that they're going to push further and harder and they're going to figure out, they're not going to want to come back to you and go, oh, it didn't work. They're going to go, we're going to make this work. We're going to figure out how to make it work. We're going to go further than we would have. Whereas if it's the CEO's idea, it's like, oh, we hit a roadblock. What do we do, CEO? And it comes back to you again. And I think that kind of coming full circle to your question is you got to give your team. Everybody wants to step up and everybody wants to have. You know, it's not just the CEO that wants to make an impact. People in each position throughout the organization, they want to know that their work is, is meaningful and is achieving something. And if you give them that ownership and that accountability, they have the chance to do that. If you take that away, they're just executing what what the CEO says. And then you're only as smart as the CEO, which would be bad for us.
• 14:53
  Kevin Rice: I think you hit it, hit the nail on the head, right? Ownership, accountability. If you come in and change the idea, then the team no longer has ownership of the idea. Therefore, they have no accountability when it comes to actually executing on it. And it always just comes back to you. I think that's great advice around servant leadership and having a lot of empathy for your team. I wish I had more of that sage advice. When I was younger in my career, I was very.
• 15:20
  Brandon Coleman III: You did really well. You've done, you've done excellent.
• 15:22
  Kevin Rice: Yeah, I did well, but was a bull in the china shop. I would come in, I'd be like, hey, guys, we're going to do something totally new this. This week. I remember, like, we were pretty early days of Hathaway and we were mostly building out applications and websites and social media was starting to get bigger and I decided we were going to go after some social media work and it was not in our wheelhouse. And so I went out and I got some work with a golfing brand and we decided we were going to give a, do a sweepstakes and do a giveaway and give away tickets to, to play at Pebble Beach. We didn't know much about social media. We didn't realize there was like brand rights and association rights that you can't just go out and run a sweepstakes and give away tickets to Pebble Beach. And we got a cease and desist letter immediately and the client was like, you didn't see this coming? So I think there was a lot of times where I didn't ask a lot of questions and I just kind of came in and said, like, this is what we're going to do because this is where we need to go. I know best. And, and the reality is I didn't. And I could have certainly leveraged or like worked with the team. I'm sure somebody on the team probably was thinking, Kevin, you can't do that. Yeah. But just, I didn't give them, I didn't empower them to speak up and tell me that it wasn't a good idea until much later in my career. But yeah, the early days, there was a lot of that.
• 16:43
  Brandon Coleman III: I will, I will confess that you're getting the picture of me now after, you know, a lot of years learning those lessons. I cannot say that I was always this way by any means. You know, I've, I've made those mistakes. I've been the bull. I've, I've thought that like, if I worked harder, longer than everyone else, that I would, I would, I would win. And it was always about me, like, how do I get there? How do I get there? And I've made that mistake too many times. Fortunately now, you know, being a constant learner and studier of like, what, what's gone right and what's gone wrong, you know, I've learned that it really is up to the team and we really have to trust our team members to get us there and push them and encourage them and even let them fail somet times because they have to learn those lessons as well.
• 17:26
  Kevin Rice: Yeah.
• 17:27
  Brandon Coleman III: And so I think that's so important, but I think, you know, it's interesting. I don't know, like, I just think about. And I'm curious your thought on this is if somebody sat down with me when I was 30 years old and, like, you're the CMO of Macaroni Grill, you need to shut up and listen to your team members and your stakeholders, and you need to stop working so hard, but really trust them to, like, would you, would you have listened? I don't know that I was mature enough to have taken that step back and say, okay, this is, this is, this is right. I think some of that comes with the battle scars and the wounds from getting too far forward on your surfboard. What do you think?
• 18:04
  Kevin Rice: I agree with it. I. I think if I look back at myself when I was 30, you know, one, I wasn't even a parent yet. I still was barely straight out of college. You know, that was a handful of years before where I was a child. I don't think I would have heard the advice. I think it takes, you know, lessons from real world experiences before you're open and responsive. Because you mentioned you were in it for yourself. It was about competing. Like, that was me for the first half of my career. I was building Hathaway for one purpose, and that was to exit, to have a big, successful exit. And that was the only thing that drove me. I was really fortunate to work with a executive coach who took me through a lot of processes and exercises and really kind of reworked how I was thinking about things, because it went from realizing it's not necessarily about the success. It's like the mountain climbing analogy. It's like, if all you're there for is to climb the peak and to be at the top, you're kind of wasting your time because you're only there for, like, two minutes. Most of the journey is climbing up and coming back down. But he helped me see that, like, underneath that desire to succeed was a much greater pull towards being able to contribute and being able to help my team and help people grow and see clients grow and see them get promotions. And so all of a sudden, I had a much more purposeful reason for building the company and building my career. And I found it so much more, like, meaningful and fulfilling. And at the end of the day, those are the things that ultimately help the company be successful and me realize that original goal of success. But the day wasn't about revenue and profit and, like, the eventual exit. The day was about, like, okay, I'm in a meeting with this team. Like, how can I help? How can I serve? How can I contribute and build connection and build relationships? I took time off, and I've just recently reconnected with a lot of my old team and old clients and built some relationships that will last a lifetime. I'm really grateful for all that and, like, kind of how my mindset changed from early career to later in my career.
• 20:10
  Brandon Coleman III: Yeah, it's, it's, it's. It's a kind of like this necessary, you know, experience that you have to gain. I mean, if. If somebody's out there, they can read a book and go, cool, this is my new mode to operate, and I've just, I've surpassed everything. I've taken everything that someone else has experienced and truly imprinted it on myself. I think that that's an incredible talent. I read about it. I understand it, and I understand maybe why it's important, but it's hard to learn the lesson until you've experienced it. I think that, you know, I was fortunate enough that people gave me the chance to, to have those experiences. And I think that's our role now is like, how do we give other people the chance to grow by having these experiences as well? And I'm not, I'm not batting a thousand on that. I'll just be real honest. I guarantee you I've made that mistake still.
• 20:56
  Kevin Rice: Right.
• 20:57
  Brandon Coleman III: Like, I still. There's times I'm like, really? We should go. It should be blue. Come on, guys. It should be blue. Let's go. It's. It's just a constant reminder and a pullback. But I do also, you know, then I'm going to argue this the other way is that I think sometimes CEOs have to go in a different direction than everybody else is willing to go in. Specifically in turnarounds. I would. I mean, I'm. I've never done a startup, but. But maybe you could comment on this. Is like, is that true? In startup, I. In turnaround, sometimes everybody goes, well, we've been going this way for years, and it's just, it's like, yeah, but if we keep going that way, we are not going to be in a good spot.
• 21:30
  Kevin Rice: Right.
• 21:31
  Brandon Coleman III: Like, everybody sees this, right? We're in a turnaround. We ha. We can't go that way anymore, and we have to shift. And sometimes you have to make a really hard call that nobody else is willing to make, and that's tough. And sometimes it's not what the entire team would agree on. And you have to understand those calculated risks.
• 21:49
  Kevin Rice: Yeah. With startup, I think for us, some of those decisions was around staying the course. For me, there was so many periods where our team wanted to change direction of the company. At one Point, we had spun out a software product and it was kind of starting to distract from the core business. And at one point, the team wanted to shift into some different verticals and industries. And I think both my partner and I, you know, we really kept the ship steering in the same direction despite a lot of internal momentum to pivot. Because, like, in startup, there's this pivot culture where it's like, you try something, if it doesn't work, you gotta pivot and then pivot again and then pivot again. But sometimes as the executive, it's also important to look at and say, like, we actually do need to stay the course here. And that was kind of going against the morale at the time when they were getting really excited about shiny objects. We're like, no, this is the path. We have to stay the course. Yeah, that's how we experienced it. You mentioned turnarounds, and, like, you do have a little bit of a reputation as a turnaround specialist. What's one transformation that you're most proud of and maybe any lessons or experiences that you carry with you from it?
• 23:00
  Brandon Coleman III: I think, you know, there's, there's, there's a number of them. I would say that Cotton Patch has been the top one. You know, just each time getting better at the application of various strategies and how to build a culture and understanding what levers move, what metrics. And I think just there's more comfort and confidence around how to approach the challenge.
• 23:23
  Kevin Rice: Right.
• 23:23
  Brandon Coleman III: Each challenge is different. There is no, there's no playbook you can come and bring. You have to understand what is driving the need for kind of improved performance, we'll say. Because a lot of times, you know, you say turnaround and somebody thinks, oh, you went from, you know, you were, you were red, and now you're go a totally different direction. And I think a lot of times it just, it is that the brand's been worn out by pivots or that there's some sort of top line unlock that needs to occur, or, hey, we're just not managing costs correctly. So I don't, you know, I think turnaround gets thrown around a lot because it's a, it's a big term that encapsulates a lot of, like, we need to improve performance.
• 24:06
  Kevin Rice: Right.
• 24:06
  Brandon Coleman III: With Cotton Patch Cafe, it was really that the team voice, and you said this earlier, and I think this is the key point is like, a CEO can go out and make a different decision and make the tough decisions and, and then the other times defer to the team. But regardless of who's kind of making the call. There has to be a culture of everybody's allowed to speak up and voice their opinion. At the end of the day, we may have to pick to go a different direction. But what you need to be able to tell your team is, I heard you, I understand why you want to go there. I understand where you want to go. It's not about everybody agreeing all the time, but it's about their experiences, their past and really speak up. This is going to sound a little cliche, but it really is culture that turns around a brand. For Cotton Patch Cafe, it was a culture of command and control and do what I say and don't ask questions. And when I got in there and I saw this, I was like, ah, this is going to be, this is a big challenge, right? Because we have to change the culture to where people feel comfortable speaking up. Our first town hall that we hosted, I asked if anybody had questions and it was just silence and crickets. And I was like, well, does anybody having feedback and silence and crickets and okay, John, what feedback do you have? And Sally, what feedback do you have? And Bob, what feedback do you have? Like, I had to call on people to like, and they're like, oh, I don't know, everything's going well. It's like, okay, well, what critical feedback do you have?
• 25:27
  Kevin Rice: Right?
• 25:27
  Brandon Coleman III: And really had to pull it out of them. Now I'm like, okay, I don't know if we have enough time in the call for everybody's feedback, but if we could just email that in a joke. But like, it really has changed. And that's one of the things I'm most proud of, is that our team members are willing to speak up and say, this isn't right. This needs to be better. We need to fix this. Something's going on with this. Why do we do this? Like, to have a culture like that, that is a culture, that is a winning culture because you can now draw on the experiences, the, the sensory experiences, the past life or past work life experiences. You can pull on every, all the, the human capital that is in your organization and you can filter and that can become your R D engine, or that can become, you know, your strategic input, or that can become kind of your, your call to action instead of just like, I've been here and seen this, I'm going to run this playbook and oh, it didn't work. I'm on to my next gig, right? It becomes more of a everybody working together, everybody pulling together. The culture is the whole thing about Turnarounds. And if you're not able to get into that because there's some sort of blocker, whether it be, you know, your sponsor or, you know, something else, I think that you got to figure out a way to work around that.
• 26:42
  Kevin Rice: Yeah, yeah, I agree. Culture is going to be critical because you have a big vision for Cotton Patch Cafe, which comes with a lot of pressure to deliver. And actually, I was thinking about it. I know your wife also has her own incredibly successful C level career as an executive. So how do you and your wife support each other in balancing two ambitious careers? Have there ever been moments where you had to really, like, give and take to support each other to make it work?
• 27:10
  Brandon Coleman III: Yeah, my wife is incredible. She's one of those. She's a chief strategy officer for an agency, an ad agency based out of Memphis called Archer. She's just like, no bs.
• 27:21
  Kevin Rice: She's.
• 27:21
  Brandon Coleman III: She runs struggles around me on. On understanding the customer and strategy. And it makes me really mad because I thought I was good.
• 27:28
  Kevin Rice: Right.
• 27:28
  Brandon Coleman III: Like, at one point, I remember telling her when I won like 40 under 40 from advertising age, I was like. I was like, this is the pinnacle. I've reached the top. There's nowhere else to go.
• 27:38
  Kevin Rice: Right.
• 27:38
  Brandon Coleman III: I learned that lesson that. That was not. That was just a blip. I learned that later on. Again, that was when I was in my 20s and that was all about me. Regardless, my wife is incredible. She's. She's a much better strategist than I am. She sees way more. She goes that level deeper when you're talking about the guest and their experience and what their true motivations are. Now, your guest likes value. Well, here's why they like value, because they like to bring a big family. Why do they like family? They like connection. Okay, here's that. Now here's a third level. Deeper. And then you're like, wow, there's the big unlock. And she's able to do that.
• 28:10
  Kevin Rice: And I'm.
• 28:10
  Brandon Coleman III: I, quite frankly, that's. That's way beyond my skill set. But as far as her career and my career, that has always been a thing. When we first met, she was a lawyer. And it was right after what was while I was working at CMO of Macaroni Grill. She was a lawyer at a big firm in Dallas. And we sold Macaroni Grill and had this incredible opportunity to go lead marketing, sales, a product for a technology company. But it was in Atlanta. And so we got engaged, but we left Dallas, which is where she's from, to go to Atlanta. And, you know, My, my, my lack of awareness of the legal profession. I was like, well, just take the bar when we get to Atlanta and you can practice there. And she almost strangled me for that. So, you know, it's. Apparently it's very difficult to just take the bar. It's not just a test you go sign up and take. Which I can't believe I didn't, wasn't more aware of that, but I was like, just take the bar in Georgia, that's fine. So she actually left legal profession at that time. And then she was kind of exploring what she wanted to do there. She did this great book called the Pathfinder, which kind of like looks at all the things you're interested in and helps you prioritize what's important to you in a career. And where she netted out was advertising. And I was like, no, no, no, no, that's my thing. Like, I, I started off in advertising. I'm in marketing. Like, you can't do that. That's what I do. You're a lawyer. Do something else. So as soon as I told her, please don't do that, that was exactly what she was going to do. And so my wife and I are both very driven, very type A. And it's been, you know, it's, it's not a, it is not like a. Here's the clear lines and here's the clear boundaries and you do this and I do this. As much as I would prefer it to be that orderly and that like, succinct, it has to be a dance. And it's a dance where there are not known steps, right? And it's the best way I can like relate it to somebody is that it is a constant give and take. It's highly dependent upon communication, which is not great for me in stressful situations. I go head down, I go like, how do we drive through this? And what I've had to learn is that communication is key when we're both stressed and we're both fighting big pending deadlines or projects. It's only more challenging with two kids. But we both have to orient ourselves to what's important. Where are we willing to give? Where are we willing, you know, where, where are our hard boundaries? And we work through it. And there's been many all nighters where you have to trade off. Like, okay, you got an all nighter on Friday, I got an all nighter on Saturday, and then Sunday we're all kids all day, you know, so it's, you know, you have to find those. You, you have to do this dance, and you have to. There's no set. There's no, you know, like, predetermined step. It's not 1, 2, 1, 2, 1, 2.
• 30:46
  Kevin Rice: Right.
• 30:46
  Brandon Coleman III: It's. It's. It's like 1, 2, 3, 4, 1, 2, 1, two, three, five. One, two, three, six. You know, that just random amalgamation of all these different numbers that you have to just kind of figure out as you go. And so it's been a lot of fun. She's an amazing woman, and I'm a very lucky guy. But we're still figuring it out. And I'd be lying to you if I said we had it perfect.
• 31:04
  Kevin Rice: Sure, sure. But, I mean, it's tough balancing. I mean, in the analogy of a dance, I think with two professionals living life together, you probably have to, like, trade off who's leading in some cases as you're figuring out the steps of how to. How to balance everything. Yeah, I'm really fortunate. My. My current partner, she's amazing. She's a doctor of physical therapy. But she has probably taught me more about leading with heart and emotional empathy than any of my executive coaches in my life. She supports me in this podcast. She actually came up with the name of the podcast.
• 31:38
  Brandon Coleman III: That's awesome.
• 31:39
  Kevin Rice: I. I was trying to figure out what to call this, and the best thing I could come up with was boardrooms and bedtime stories. And I spent hours trying to figure out, like, a good name, just talking to, like, ChatGPT and Claude. Couldn't figure out anything where. I loved it. I literally brought it to her in three seconds. She's like, why don't you call it CEOs and ABCs? I was like, that's the best name I have heard. And I've been working on this for weeks.
• 32:06
  Brandon Coleman III: You can't give up too much. It was just, like, immediate.
• 32:09
  Kevin Rice: I know, but I just. I loved it immediately.
• 32:12
  Brandon Coleman III: It's a great name. It's a great name. Maybe she was going to go into advertising next. I don't know.
• 32:18
  Kevin Rice: I know, right? But I think, like, sometimes you hear people say this, and I think it's worth reiterating, is, like, the person you choose to spend your life with is not only gonna have the most impact, and it's the biggest factor in, you know, your happiness, but it's also the biggest factor in your success in your career, because they can either support you and lift you up, or they can pull you down and, like, you know, drag you back. So love to hear the story about how you and your wife work together and do this dance called life and career.
• 32:47
  Brandon Coleman III: Yeah, I've stepped on her toes plenty of. I should go ahead and just say that just for the record.
• 32:51
  Kevin Rice: Sure, sure. When you are balancing family and life and you have these different demands, have you had moments where you've had to choose between work and family? And how did you navigate that decision?
• 33:04
  Brandon Coleman III: Yeah. I want to start by saying I think the more dangerous thing isn't the big moments. The more dangerous thing is the constant bleed. You know, it's kind of that, that old like proverb that says we overestimate what we can do in a day and underestimate what we can do in a year. And I think about that like missing a day. We often go, oh my God, it's, it's this soccer game or it's this thing and missing that and, and I think those are big moments and those are important.
• 33:36
  Kevin Rice: Right.
• 33:36
  Brandon Coleman III: And you have to set time aside for those. The other one though, that I think is way more dangerous, that is talked a lot less about is the daily, like, what if I miss an hour each day for a year? That's 365 hours.
• 33:50
  Kevin Rice: Right.
• 33:51
  Brandon Coleman III: So that's a lot bigger time gap for, for the kids and the family than. And it doesn't seem like it's, oh, it's just an hour. I'm just working till seven every night.
• 34:00
  Kevin Rice: Right.
• 34:00
  Brandon Coleman III: Like instead of six or whatever. And, and I think that can be the more dangerous of the two. That said, I think when you've got to keep commitments and, and my thing is you, you've got to understand what's important to your kids and, and what, and, and be there for them on that. You know, my, my son's at their school. It's a very active school and we love our school, but there's a lot like we have, you know, once every two weeks somebody has a recital or a, like a group grade level event or something like that. And so my wife and I have to divide and conquer. And she goes, okay, I'm going to take this one. Can you take this one? Can you take this parent teacher conference and I'll take this one. We, you know, can, can, can. Hey, something's come up. Can you take this alone? And I think you have to communicate to the kids and help them understand. Hey look, Dad's not gonna be there, but mom's gonna be there and she's gonna take a video and I can't wait to see it. Hey, the next one. Dad's gonna be there, Mom's not gonna be there. We can't wait to see it. And, and I do think that that is hard, but I think communicating for our kids has given enough clarity. And if you understand, like, that this is a big deal for them, then.
• 35:07
  Kevin Rice: Both got to be there, right?
• 35:08
  Brandon Coleman III: Like, you have to. You have to force yourself to have that time. I think, especially post Covid, people should not be afraid to say, hey, look, I've got a thing with my kids. I'm going to be there from 4 to 6, and then I'll be back online at 7, you know, or I'll be back online after they go to bed at 8. I think people, the flexibility that work has, has gained, whether you're in office or out of office. We've gained a lot of flexibility because there's more humanity, I think, to work. And I think that was one of the benefits of COVID is the people, like, had to be on zoom calls while their kids were like bouncing around in the background. Everybody was like, oh my God, these are a bunch of humans we're working with. This isn't just a talking head, right? Like in a suit. Did I see.
• 35:45
  Kevin Rice: There's a good chance my kids are going to bust in at some point during this conversation.
• 35:50
  Brandon Coleman III: Mine are at Costco right now. So we just listened to the. What is trans. No, transacted. What's the long form podcast that the two tech guys. Oh, man, I'm blanking on the name, but it's a great podcast. Acquired. Acquired is the name of the podcast. Another great podcast, second only to CEOs and ABCs.
• 36:09
  Kevin Rice: Right?
• 36:09
  Brandon Coleman III: But acquired did this deep dive on Costco. So now we're like back in on Costco and like, oh, it's such a great brand. They do all these amazing things. And so anyway, it's worth a. Worth a listen as well, but they're. They're at Costco with my wife right now, so we've got a set amount of time before they come knocking down the door. But I think that, I think that it gave everybody, like a little bit more humanity, which I think is important. So I think back to your question of, like, how do you set those times? Don't be afraid to ask for it. Nobody knows what you have committed to. And I think more often than not, people are willing to make exceptions. As long as you're willing to make exceptions. If you need to leave for your kids thing at three and be there from three to five, that's great. We also need to get this thing done. Can you get it done from seven to nine?
• 36:53
  Kevin Rice: Right.
• 36:53
  Brandon Coleman III: I Think where the. If you're going to give to the family, the, the work is paying you for the time so that you got to find the right balance. Or maybe, hey, look, I'm going to work this weekend. Or hey, guess what? It's just got to be a trade off.
• 37:04
  Kevin Rice: Right?
• 37:04
  Brandon Coleman III: And I think that as long as you find that balance in different ways, I'm going to come in early tomorrow. Whatever it is, like, whatever works for your schedule. You got to find the times to trade off and you got to know what you're not.
• 37:16
  Kevin Rice: It doesn't have to be 9 to 5.
• 37:17
  Brandon Coleman III: Yeah, it doesn't have to be 9 to 5. You have to do the things that are important, most important for your kids that get the highest visibility. But I'd say also be cautious of the, the long term bleed the. Every hour. The extra 30 minutes to an hour every day is, is more detrimental.
• 37:31
  Kevin Rice: Yeah, I think for me and my kids during that pretty high stress time during COVID I was there with them physically, thankfully, because I wasn't traveling. You know, we were able to kind of cut back on. I used to travel 50% of the year. It was a lot. And I was able to cut back a lot. And so I was there with them physically, but I wasn't there with them mentally or emotionally. So we'd be together, but my brain would be thinking about the next meeting, the next, you know, pitch, the next client meeting, the next trip. And so my version of death by a thousand cuts was after a year of this, of me not being connected with myself, emotionally, not connected with my kids, I started to see those impacts in the way that they were behaving. You know, just some of the difficulties or things that like, didn't develop in their personalities because I wasn't emotionally and mentally there for them, even though I was physically there for them. And so I've now since been able to like, really work on bringing that connection back to our family. But it takes a lot of presence, you know. So like last night I was supposed to do some more preparation for our discussion. It didn't happen. Like, my oldest son, Levi, needed some time because he needed to process some emotions. And I didn't get to do the prep that I wanted to do for this. It meant I needed to be present.
• 38:54
  Brandon Coleman III: See, I think that's the other thing is we think, like there's more and more and more and more to do. And I think that. And I think it's. I think it's a little bit easier with work. And maybe this is my Personal bias. But it's easier because there's a clear deliverable, a clear deadline. Something clear. Whereas maybe with the kids, it's like, it's a little bit more fungible. It's like, what? Well, we got. We've got time tomorrow, and like, we'll play later. And like, there's no hard deadline of like, you haven't played seven hours by the end of the week or you haven't. And that. And I think that puts it at risk to slip more than something that's a hard deadline.
• 39:30
  Kevin Rice: Right.
• 39:30
  Brandon Coleman III: I think it's just a. Just a perception bias that this is more important because it has to be done by this time versus, oh, well, that can slip till tomorrow because there's no clear deadline. And I think, look, I. I'm still learning every single day, and I am not. I have so much opportunity to be a better father as well.
• 39:49
  Kevin Rice: Right?
• 39:49
  Brandon Coleman III: So I don't. I don't want to come on here and be like, guys, it's easy. You can do it. Like, I want to be really, like, honest and say it's hard. And like, when I, When I'm stressed, I go into. In my head, and so I am like, I can be just almost like, not present, but like you were talking about, just not there.
• 40:07
  Kevin Rice: And.
• 40:07
  Brandon Coleman III: And my kids be like, dad, dad, dad, dad. And I'm like, oh, what? Yeah. Yeah, what? And. And so I, I'm not. I'm definitely not the best at it. I think that what I try to do is I, I work at it. When I realize that I'm. I'm doing a poor job, I tell my kid, hey, look, I'm sorry I screwed up, or I wasn't here, or, hey, dad was thinking about something else. Let's get back, let's go play Legos or, let's go do something. But I think, you know, parents not trying to pretend like they're perfect is important because I don't think anybody is. And I think our kids see right through that. So we can't, you know, gaslight them and say, oh, no, you just, you know, you weren't speaking up a lot enough or you weren't. You're bothering daddy or whatever. Like, you've got to, like, say, hey, like, I screwed up. I'm not perfect. And let's go. Let's. Let's now re. Engage and let's go do something.
• 40:52
  Kevin Rice: Yeah. And that's how we teach our children. You know, they. They say, like, more is caught than taught. So, you know, if you want your kids to learn how to take accountability and responsibility and apologize when they do something wrong. It starts with you.
• 41:06
  Brandon Coleman III: Yeah.
• 41:07
  Kevin Rice: So that's really good advice, Brandon. We could go on for a while, but I want to respect your time because we're about at the end here. But I wanted to wrap up with something a little bit more forward looking. And, you know, you've talked about being a father, you've talked about your son. When your son's grown and looks back on your career, you know, what do you hope he remembers? Not like necessarily the title or the accolades, but like the way you showed up as an executive as well as his dad, you know, how do you hope he looks back on his experience growing up?
• 41:40
  Brandon Coleman III: That's a great question. So I'm gonna kind of go around about and come to a conclusion here. I don't think my kids are gonna care.
• 41:48
  Kevin Rice: Right?
• 41:48
  Brandon Coleman III: Like, I don't think that our work lives define us for our families. I think that our families judge us by who we are with them. I think it's important to know how, how we approached work, what our values were. But I think more than anything, my kids are going to take away the dad that I was than, than what I accomplished in my career. And I think that's a good reminder for us all to come back to how can we be more present with family, how can we spend more time? How can we be a better person when we're here? What I hope that one day when they're much more grown, you know, I, I hope that they are able to be better than, than, than I was. Right. Like, I think that's the hope of. Hopefully every father is thinking, I hope my kids can be better than I was. I hope my kids can be better than I was. Not in a sense of like what they accomplished, but just to improve upon the, the humanity of each of each generation.
• 42:53
  Kevin Rice: Right?
• 42:53
  Brandon Coleman III: To be a better person, to be a better leader, to be a more inclusive leader, to be a more wholesome leader, to be a more honest, authentic, like every single positive attribute that we look for in leadership. We hope that our kids can build upon what we laid down. And I think that that's going to come from the experience they have with me directly as a father mostly. And then looking back, they can say, wow, my dad worked hard to get from here to here. And, oh, you know, that's pretty amazing. Like that I'm working hard now, but I do remember my dad being at those things. Like he made that time for us, you know, that's what I would hope they would take away is that it is very hard. I'm nowhere near perfect. I would say, you know, if I could bat, if my kids thought, I bet 500, I'd be like, oh, yes, awesome. Thank you. But if they can. If one day they say, wow, you know, my dad worked his tail off in made time for us, and he wasn't perfect, but he tried really hard, and we know he loved us. That's like. That's the best.
• 43:51
  Kevin Rice: Yeah. I think that's a great daily reminder of what's really important. And I agree. I think that's what we're all striving for as parents.
• 43:58
  Brandon Coleman III: Yeah. My LinkedIn's not going on my gravestone. Yeah, right.
• 44:02
  Kevin Rice: Look, I just want to say I've always admired you as a person, as an executive. I always thought the way that you blended kind of leadership vision with clear direction and execution was. Was really impressive. But what I've enjoyed most in this conversation is just seeing how much heart you bring to everything you do. Like I said, you've led some of the biggest names in hospitality through incredible transformations, pivotal moments, but you never lose sight of the people and the communities that are really at the center of it all. So thank you so much for sharing your stories, your lessons, and the human side of leadership with us today. It's been a real pleasure to have you on the show.
• 44:45
  Brandon Coleman III: Thank you, Kevin. It's been an awesome conversation. I really appreciate it.
• 44:48
  Kevin Rice: If you're enjoying this conversation, make sure to hit subscribe so you don't miss future episodes. CEOs and ABCs is all about helping you grow in your career and show up at home. We've got many more amazing guests coming up, so tap, follow, and stay tuned.