Latest / The Pluralist Podcast - with Orly Erez-Likhovski and Rabbi Josh Weinberg / Goodbye 5786: Looking Back to Go Forward
Transcript
- Orly Erez Likhovski: some things are are so hard to reverse or to repair. But we have to believe right in our power to bring about deep change looking back at history in general and in Israel in particular, a lot of things have changed, once there was a change in government, Even though some trends seem very, you know, very deep, very entrenched in Israeli society when we're talking about the growing radicalization and racism, especially dehumanization toward Palestinians, Of course we have to treat it severely, but we have to believe in the fact that if there is a change of government and if there is a government that is going to invest more in shared society and in educating toward, you know, pluralism and tolerance and respect for the other, then this things are gonna change, you know, deeply. Welcome to a new season of the Pluralist Podcast from both sides of the ocean. I'm Oli Eldikovsi, Executive Director of the Israel Religious Action Center. Hi Josh. Josh Weinberg: Hi, I'm Rabbi Josh Weinberg, Vice President of For Israel and Reform Zionism for the URJ and the director of Arts really great to be back and I'm excited for this new season, Orly. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, me too. it's been a while and you know this well you know this whole past few months have been crazy, but I think this week is a really special week to start a new season because it is, you know, sort of a moment of beginning. you know, we're approaching Grossoshana and you know, kids are going back to school this week in Israel, in in the States it's next week, right? Josh Weinberg: in the beginning of August, some people start like my kids start after Labor Day in the the beginning of September. So it's a it's a whole season of summer ending and going back to school and you know, starting again. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, and of course we have, you know, ahead of us, right? After the Hagim, we have elections in both of our countries. So we figured it's a really good time to just stop for a moment, look a little back on the really crazy year that we've gone through, and then look a little bit forward, you know, maybe maybe with some concern, but also some hope. so that's really good to have a conversation with you. It's been a while. Josh Weinberg: a absolutely yeah. Yeah. So just just catch me up a little bit on you. I mean, I I love to use this moment during Elul. Here we are, really in the middle of Elul and Rosh Hashanah is approaching maybe a little bit too quickly for some of our s some of our rabbinic and clergy colleagues who you know, whoa, it's it's it's happening very soon. but really use this time for some reflection and introspection and and thinking about you know, what we wanna What we want to do in the year, what we want to bring with us from last year, what we want to leave behind from last year, of course. there are many things. Orly, just give me a set like how how are you feeling in this moment? You just came back from from abroad for a little bit and you know, hit the ground running, of course. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, so I was on vacation on a much needed vacation in Norway, which was really wonderful and I needed that after, you know, really stressful month. and we are now you know, ahead of us are really, really, really intense month. where right after the Hagim we have the elections and then hopefully a new government and it's going to be super busy. I have to tell you on a personal note that, you know, tomorrow, September first, school is starting in Israel and it's the first time for me in twenty three years that I don't have a kid that's beginning school. so that's sort Josh Weinberg: Yes. Orly Erez Likhovski: of very emotionally and yeah, very different for me. But it's always, you know, a sense of really something new. So we we are at the end of as you said in the verge of foshashana trying to be very hopeful with a lot of changes c you know coming our way hopefully I think every year it's sort of a time of reflection, but I think now in particular, I think that it's been really, really rough and now it's on the one hand we are exhausted from all the struggles over the past few years, but on on the other hand, we have sort of this and I'm sorry for the metaphor, it's like the light at the end of the tunnel. Finally Josh Weinberg: Yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: we may see some, you know, major change that would bring about a different time. So in this sense it's Josh Weinberg: Well, from from your mouth, you know, to God's ears, I think is really what we're we're hoping for. And yeah, it's it's I think there's a a lot of tension and a lot of hope as well. I I had the opportunity to spend some time at one of our summer camps this past summer working with kids of different ages. I had the opportunity to have these really intense conversations about Israel and about Jewish identity with entering twelfth graders, with tenth graders, with college age staff, even with some of our faculty members who were, you know, rabbis, cantors, educators, et cetera. and and a group of twenty-nine Israeli teenagers who came from mostly the northern Galilee. it was a program through the Jewish agency that brought now since October seventh kids from the periphery, you know, from the north and the south to come and have a bit of a respite at at some of our not just the reform movement, but you know, camps all over North America. and it was really i it was fascinating to hear from their perspective and you know to see what they've been going through and some of them were were pretty young on October seventh, you know, three years ago. And you know, having you know, hearing from them and and really just about being Jewish and what it meant and meeting American Jews, that was a big part of and then my time in Israel this summer was I have to say inspiring. it it just felt so alive. at the moment, you know, the the cafes and restaurants were full and there were performances and festivals and all those things going on. And we had our own you know, a at our campus at the Hebrew Union College and you know, the offices of the reform movement in Israel where we spent time together and it just felt so you know lively and and full of energy. And that that that was a different feeling than really in the past the past few years. So yeah, yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: And in interesting. I I wanna take you back to what what you just spoke about the Israeli teens coming to, you know, the the camps in the States because I remember you telling me in the last year and two years ago that it's been tense with everything that's has been going on in Israel, the meeting between Israeli teens and liberal Jews, young liberal Jews in the States, and I'm wondering whether it's has changed this year, compared to the last few years. Josh Weinberg: Yeah, it has changed, I think. I I'll say mostly for the for the better. some of the Israeli and and this there's a difference between the Israeli teens who came and the Israeli Shlikim, who are, you know, post army and you know, coming to work as staff. they came really feeling like they needed to prove something to to to everyone. And and and and this year I felt like they were, you know, really interested in in listening and they come from really different perspectives, of course. And and so that that was fascinating. You know, just to be able to hear some of their stories, many of them didn't enter the army until twenty twenty four, twenty, you know, e even later. and it's it's it's that year where in previous years we had people coming right from combat in Gaza in the north and and coming right to our summer camps, which was such an abrupt you know, change for them and it was really shocking. I felt like they were interested in hearing also from the perspectives of of of their American counterparts. and I'll say those who in the past brought a serious critique of Israel and serious critique of our movement in terms of, you know, what it means to be a Zionist movement, you know, For better or for worse, are not are not coming as much to our camps anymore. I I don't know what's happening with them. That's that's a that's that's a big question for me. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah. Yeah, it is. Josh Weinberg: but many of our Madridim now are coming and and seeking sort of a break from the rhetoric on college campuses and just wanna be. And they had lots of questions. For instance, the twelfth graders, many of them said to me, We we we don't know enough. We just want to learn more. And we want to hear more and we want to hear from different perspectives. So so we offered them opportunities to do that. and that was great. And some of the Israeli teens, they had never experienced reformed Judaism before. so one student came to me and he said, you know, we and we do tfilot, you know, we pray every day, twice a day, and they said to me, they said, Wow, d you know, these this reform praise I'll give it to you in Hebrew and then we'll translate because he says, He said, you know, these reformed prayers, this is this is really something. I said, I'd never experienced anything like this. He goes, absolutely. He said, You know, Orly Erez Likhovski: On a pos on a positive note. Yeah. Josh Weinberg: do do you think we could do something like this in Israel? I said, Well, a as a matter of fact as a matter of fact, there there Orly Erez Likhovski: There is there are a few congregations. Yeah. Josh Weinberg: is exactly. Yeah, not too far from where you live, actually, you know. And I pointed him to, you know, we have a keila in Rospina, we a keila in Carmel, we have a you know, in in in in different areas in in in there and they and they, you know, it was new to them. Also interesting hearing their experience in terms of what was meaningful for them to be Jewish and and what that meant to them. and mostly they just wanted to have fun, which is also okay. You know, that's that's okay. So it was a big Orly Erez Likhovski: Course. Yeah. Yeah. It's just a Josh Weinberg: experience. And, you know, listening to our Yahla Israel students, we know we did a podcast about it earlier, but just, you know, seeing them you know, experience all of this was was really was really meaningful and they have lots more questions, yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yes. Yes, I think it's it's it's a real question for me. I mean I've been I'm being asked a lot about if and hopefully after we do have political change here in Israel, how long is it going to take until it affects the relationship between, you know, the state of Israel and, you know, liberal Jews outside of Israel? And obviously it's not gonna be overnight. It's gonna take time, but it could probably signal some some change at least or would be the beginning of a process of, you know, like healing and reconciliation on this level as well. and obviously it remains to be seen how college campuses are gonna you know, be it this year, obviously it it's no it's not like it ha used to be, you know, a few years ago. and I hope it would die down. But I you know, from just following different election processes in the states, I mean the Israel is continuing to be a major issue in even in right, in states election processes, which is still unbelievable. Josh Weinberg: absolutely. Yeah, I think we'll get to that. and and you know, I I I really love how you said the beginning of a process because some people think, you know, if i if there's a change, if Netanyahu is no longer the prime minister, then all of a sudden, you know, everything will be peachy and everything will be fine. Okay, okay, it it it's gonna take some time. I think we're seeing deep splits both, you know, in Israeli society and of course in American and American. Jewish community. and that's gonna take a long time and a long process to heal. And I think the more that we can build coalitions and a broader consensus of the central issues that are important, that that's gonna be key. I did have an opportunity Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah. Josh Weinberg: to visit to visit a college campus this summer. I went to my alma mater, the University of Wisconsin actually. and what was really cool is that they now do a program where 400 Jewish students came and moved in three days early. to campus and spent two days with the Hillel there, you know, just building community, getting to know each other, doing some learning, spending Shabbat together, before the school year started. And it was a really wonderful way to build Jewish community there on campus. and they have a wonderful new Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, so it's Josh Weinberg: Slichader and and and so you know, little points of inspiration. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yes, I think we should really fa f like strike a balance between being hopeful and being realistic on, you know, how change is going to evolve. And I think that I I in in Oslo in Norway I visited the Nobel Peace Centre, which was really Josh Weinberg: Mm. Orly Erez Likhovski: in inspiring and seeing, you know, all those people, you know, laurettes of the N Nobel Peace Prize and I gave my my I brought back a magnet to put on the refriger f refrigerator here in our kitchen at work and it says it's Nelson Mandela saying it's always impossible until it's done. So I think in a Josh Weinberg: Mm. Orly Erez Likhovski: lot of senses we feel that some things are even if we have a change in government, are so hard to reverse or to repair. But we have to believe right in our power to bring about deep change and not only change that could really be reversed very, very easily. And I think we have to remember that, you know, looking back at history in general and in Israel in particular, a lot of things have changed, even in a you know pretty quick manner once there was a change in government, right? Obviously, you know, where you know we have the peace with Egypt, which was right after Yom Kippur war, and we have so many things change for the good and the bad after change in leadership, right? I mean after Rabin was assassinated, so many things have changed. So we know that a lot of things could happen Even though some trends seem very, you know, very deep, very entrenched in Israeli society when we're talking about the growing radicalization and racism, especially dehumanization toward Palestinians, both in Israel and definitely outside of Israel, in the West Bank and Gaza, which is I think really one of the most troubling phenomena that has been, you know, really sparring out of control in in recent weeks. It's just getting worse and worse. Of course we have to treat it severely, but we have to believe in the fact that if there is a change of government and if there is a government that is going to invest more in shared society and in educating toward, you know, pluralism and tolerance and respect for the other, then this things are gonna change, you know, deeply. this is, you know, very much on my mind. Josh Weinberg: Right. And no, absolutely. And I think that this is the moment to focus on the top down approach that there has to come from the top, but then that needs to have the support of the grassroots as well. because y you know, without the the the marriage of those two, I think, you know, change or s sustainable change will will be difficult. you know, and we've s seen examples of this in the past as well. So let's let's dig in. you know, as as we're preparing to welcome in the new year. Rosh Hashanah is around the corner. let's do a bit of a review of the last year. And so early, I want to ask you, you know, what what stand out we think about since you know, since last Rosh Hashanah, eleven and a half months ago, what stands out to you as as really eventful from this year? And I wanna then ask, you know, what what are our successes and what were some were some low points? So let's say you what what what stood out, what what can you look at You know, in terms of successes in the last year. Orly Erez Likhovski: Well, I think the first thing that we have to remember is that We brought the hostages back home, which was unbelievably less than a year ago, right? It was last October. and I you know, I have photos keep popping up on my on my phone, you know, like from Google Photos, and it shows me all the photos from the Havdelot we used to have, right? And the protests for the release Josh Weinberg: Yes. Orly Erez Likhovski: of the hostages. And like I like on August last year, we had huge, huge demonstrations in Tel Aviv, that obviously we were there. And just understanding that this has changed and we managed to bring them home. Unfortunately, not all of them today actually is August 31st, which is marking two years since the six Josh Weinberg: Yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: murdered hostages, Fresh Goldberg and Kalmel Gad and the other. so obviously, not everybody came back alive, but many have. And I think it seemed for for a long time it seemed impossible, and we know that the fact that we were on the streets along with so many people and organizations, and along with so many people outside of Israel, made a difference. And I think this is something I keep reminding myself. Myself at some low points, you know, that we had during the last few years, the last year, that this was, you know, made possible by our struggle. And it really gives me a sense of agency and capability in a reality where we sometimes feel very powerless and sometimes hopeless. So we have to remember this. I mean, this is a huge, huge thing that happened. Josh Weinberg: It's it's massive, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I you know, just thinking back, I remember, you it was it was during Sukkot last year that it took place Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah. Josh Weinberg: and you know it was a over a year ago. And I and I do wanna give some c you know, as much as the struggle you know, from the grassroots and the protest movement, I I I do think there was some involvement of the American government there and and President Trump who, you know, f pushed the hand and and and made that happen and I wanna give credit where where credit is due. And I just, you know, thinking about after the Haighe last year when Everyone went through the process of, you know, taking down the posters and the yellow ribbons and all of the y you know, visible symbols of the struggle to bring back the hostages. And it was, you know, a really massive process that that we went through. you know, thinking about the Khagim last year and how prominent they featured and how many tfilot and prayers were included to bring back the hostages. And that's that is a major, major shift from this year. And And you know, and and and we're gonna hear more stories as they come out and you know, watching the Israeli news to see different former hostages now being featured and beginning to tell their story and explain how their trauma and how some Yes, yes, my gosh, yeah. I'm thinking about the concert Orly Erez Likhovski: And also some of them are getting married and having children. It's it's really, really, really exciting. yeah, yeah. Josh Weinberg: of Sagidda Kilchen, who wrote all these songs during captivity and then performed them to a an audience and and and how how powerful that was and you know how meaningful that was and so yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, so I I so I think we really have to bear in mind that story, which is a story of, you know, huge difficulty and and sadness and grief, but also of you know of our ability to bring about a better future. And, you know, I I looking back to the really the difficult year that, you know, another difficult year that we had is, you know, sometimes I say the fact that we survived and managed to to know keep our heads up and and and raise a voice for the values we believed in. This this in and of itself I think is is an achievement because it's really been such you know tough few years. and you know I Josh Weinberg: Yeah, let's not take that for granted. I mean that's yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, it is. It is. And I don't know if you're you probably remember we had in the Israeli Biennial a session of you and me together with Dr. Odeda Josh Weinberg: Of course. Orly Erez Likhovski: Domileshem, who is an expert about hope. and he now's published a new book called The Revolution of Hope and I just heard a podcast of Moshe Radman about what with him and he says something Josh Weinberg: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Listen as well. Yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: I mean it's it's really an eye opener. and I think you know we studying hope but also studying hope as a tool for for social change. and what he said, which really res resonated with me is that since we were s struggling so much and we were just so deep into the present, trying to, you know, basically fight back so many things that that terrible our terrible government has tried to to promote, it was very hard for us to look at the future. And to try to imagine a different future, you know, politically, a different future for, you know, peace and two state solution, because it's like our mind couldn't be there because we were just so busy trying to live the moment and just survive, right? And this is part of the tactic of this government and I think of the American administration as well, just you know, doing all these things all at once that just keeps the other side busy and not being able to actually take a moment. Try to formulate a different vision and to bring, you know, make this happen. And I think now that we're on the verge of elections, it's exactly the time of saying, okay, what kind of a state do we want Israel to be? And obviously, especially since the elections are on October 27th, October 7th Josh Weinberg: Yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: features prominently the elections and the need for a state commission of inquiry and of the healing of Israel society and security and so forth, but it's much more than that. It's really thinking about what kind of a state we want to live in, whether it's gonna be a liberal state, a really Jewish and democratic state, or a state which is governed by, you know, halcha, you know, Orthodox Jewish law, which is beliefs in Jewish supremacy. And this is real choice that Israelites are facing today. And I think you know it's a moment when people understand how bad it was during the last few years and a moment where we can bring about change. Josh Weinberg: Yeah, I absolutely and I think that y you know, looking towards that I think many Americans or many, let's say, Jews outside of Israel don't necessarily internalize the struggle or the trauma that much of Israeli society went through, especially during these attacks. and especially during, you know, the the the Iran war in the spring where, you know, back and forth to the bomb shelter and and and out and just never knowing when you know, it's safe to move around and to live your life. And so, you know, I think that that has to be part of this, you know, introspection and, you know, how do we understand the feelings of the other, especially as we're talking, you Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, and I Josh Weinberg: know, from both sides of the ocean here. that that that I think that's real and I'm glad that you pointed that out, you know. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, and and I I yeah, and I wanna I wanna talk soon about the low points, but before that I do wanna say another thing about about our success. w I see We see Iraq as really sort of a t trailblazer trying to identify different phenomena as and and fighting them. And before others see it. And we really see I think especially this last year, the fruits of our struggles, you know, our struggles coming to fruition. Okay. So I I want to give you two examples. One is Josh Weinberg: Yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: about our struggle against gender segregation in the public sphere, which has become really, really a mainstream issue, but it never used to be like that. And I really take credit for the fact that we educated Israelis that this is something that should be fought and not tolerated and we not did not only educate Israelis in general, but actually this year we tr we found out that we educated the bus companies. So it's enough for us to file complaints about a woman who was not allowed to board a bus because she's supposedly dressed immodestly. After a letter, then the bus company writes to us, okay, you know, we're gonna compensate you. We don't even have to go to court because they understand this is illegal. So that's you know one example. And the other example is everything that is connected to the Haredim, right? The ultra Orthodox, which is you obviously becomes a huge issue. And specifically about the lack of core curriculum in in Haredi schools, which is something that we've been fighting for twenty years. Okay, I filed our first petition in 2005, so 21 years ago. And Josh Weinberg: Wow. Orly Erez Likhovski: back then, like nobody understood, like what do what do we care? And obviously now it's a a complete consensus and people understand how you know critical it is for Israel's economy, for Israel's future and for Israel's, you know, social cohesion. And we have, you know, both the public with us. the courts with us, the attorney general, the Ministry of Finance, the Ministry of even the Ministry of Education under this government. So it is sort of satisfying to see that all the seeds that we've planted over the years have made a difference. You know, it took a long time, but it did make a difference. Josh Weinberg: No, absolutely. And I think that's an important reminder, even just to the zoom in, zoom out factor, that when people think about Israel right now, they're thinking about exa you know, Iran, Hamas, Gaza, West Bank, South Ivan, all these stuff. But these struggles, you know, what we call whether, you know, domestic issues or internal issues, the ongoing work that's that's happening is has not stopped, right? And the issues have not gone away, of course, just because we have, you know, they're just because there's war, because there's, you know, massive geopolitical issues, you know, happening. and I think that's really important to point out. Yeah. Please Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, and and I and and I w yeah, and I would I would add that I think All of those are connected in the sense that many of the things we are fighting are the result of religious extremism and zealotry. Okay. So we see the religious zealotry exemplified in that Jewish terrorism in the West Bank, and we see it in the crazy racist ministers that we have, and we see it in ultra Orthodox, you know, attacking women for being immodest, and we see it and so many other, you know, anti LGBTQ you know, atta attacks, and we see it in our congregations. That have been attacked in the last few weeks, right? Reform congregations that the synagogue their synagogues have been vandalized by zealots, right? Who don't agree with us and decide that it's okay for them to break into a synagogue and and Josh Weinberg: So so let's let's of course let's just name that. There are two congregations in Israel, Kilat Khan and Shema in Jerusalem, and Kilat Darkenoam in Ramatosharon. were the victims of vandalism, of a of attack. And you know, so interesting that we juxtaposed that with another unfortunate incident in New York in Central Synagogue. And many were quick to point out that the entire Jewish world, including the establishment and the Israeli government, called out anti-Semitism in Central Synagogue. and and of course when it happened in our own backyard to Reform congregations in Israel, you know, they dismissed that as a few hooligans, you know, messing around, did not call that out as anti Semitic, you know, as Orly Erez Likhovski: Right. Josh Weinberg: an attack on Jews. Yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: And and of course, and of course the police didn't do anything up until now. So and and we should mention Josh Weinberg: Right. Orly Erez Likhovski: that the Koran Shema vandalization is just the last of a series of attacks on on that specific synagogue. So that's of course very troubling. Josh Weinberg: No doubt. Orly Erez Likhovski: I think on the positive side is that in each case we had huge waves of solidarity, right? I Josh Weinberg: Here's a birth. Orly Erez Likhovski: mean, especially in Jerusalem when we had sister congregations, Orthodox and conservative congregations that, you know, really sent a letter of solidarity and came to the to the synagogue a week. later and you know hundreds Josh Weinberg: Showed up, yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: hundreds of people and in Ramatha Shahon just last Friday there were hundreds of people that came to show support, including, you know, people from the municipality, a local council members, and many others, because I think that when you put one in fr you know next to the other, right, the zealotry and the violence and you know the the discrimination against, you know what we believe in, which is really tolerance and live and let live and compassion and respect for all, a lot of people know we we have to pick side and we're picking the liberal side. And in this sense it's important for people to understand that they have to pick a side in order not to allow this to happen and in order to show that we're not going to accept this because we are obviously concerned that it's not the last of that tax. And we are obviously, you know, asking our congregations to be vigilant as as is our your congregations. And I think really looking back to the low points of this year. This is definitely one example and I'm sure on your side of the ocean, I mean the anti Semitic attacks and I mean there've been so many. It's Josh Weinberg: So that's yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: it's it's Josh Weinberg: Right, we the statistics show that we've reached a forty-six year high in anti Semitic attacks, even though in twenty twenty five it r was reduced by thirty percent from twenty twenty four, which still makes it the third highest year in the last, you know, half century. you know, just in the city of New York alone, anti Semitic attacks were up one hundred and eighty two percent. Okay. And some try to tie a you know, causation or correlation with the new mayor of New York. I y you know that's a whole other discussion. but but but we've seen this and we've seen, you know, in our congregation in Jackson, Mississippi that was burned to the ground. our curr our largest congregation in North America, Temple Israel of West Bloomfield, Michigan, which suffered a very, very significant attack that could have been much worse, of course. Orly Erez Likhovski: Right. Josh Weinberg: and you know, some of the repercussions of that. And you know, now there's a very highly contested and controversial, you know, Senate race going on in that state. that's you know, keeping the Jewish community on its on its toes and and and really Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah. Yeah. Josh Weinberg: difficult decisions for people. and congregations, you know, in in in Canada, in London, and and really around the world, of course, Central Synagogue we mentioned, in and Australia, Sydney, you know, so Orly Erez Likhovski: And and obviously Australian. Australia, yeah, yeah. Josh Weinberg: I think that that is a real low point. And I think that people are seeing that this is not just a few people, you know, shouting slogans or slurs, but really people taking serious action and it's coming out of the woodwork, whether that's related to Israel or not, is is deeply, deeply troubling. and you know, thankfully we're all resilient and we're trying to, you know, push back and both work with, you know, law enforcement on on all of that stuff. And you know, and even if you mentioned the Israeli election on October 27th and we emphasize the seven, and I've seen different know, posters highlight the, you know, October and the seven Orly Erez Likhovski: Seven. Yeah. Josh Weinberg: in red, when some American Jews hear October twenty-seventh, they hear the eighth anniversary of the Tree of Life Massacre in Pittsburgh, which the the Loisi, you know, the Gregorian date is October twenty-seventh also. And so that, you know, that stands Orly Erez Likhovski: Well, right. Well, yeah. Josh Weinberg: out to us as the, you know, greatest number of Jews killed in the United States really ever, you know, for being Jewish. And that's that that's a reminder to some of the situation that we're seeing right now. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, but you know, I I I think we should you know, I'm trying to take like a positive note on that. I think really when we had you know, troubling incidents on both sides of the ocean, we did really feel, I think both of us felt really immense wave of solidarity from Jews from both sides of the ocean. and I have to say on the high points of this last year, it's which is this podcast, right? Among other things, I think really the this connection, and and you know, the a lot of warm responses that I've got on on so many c cases from liberal Jews outside of Israel, mostly in North America. but you know all over the world. I think that's really like for me it's really, really meaningful and helpful and really helps me go through this really difficult time and like I'm sure it goes both ways. Josh Weinberg: absolutely. And people are you know, saying that this has helped give them language and ground them and and also point to things that they would not have heard about otherwise and interesting personalities. And so we'll ask our listeners to help continue and share and and you know, grow the community of the pluralist podcast, you know, around the world. and I know that you'll be traveling this year a lot and have a chance to get out, you know, at whether in Australia or at the URJ Biennial in December. will be a really important opportunity to bring more people in. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, yeah, for sure. So, you know, let me ask you if you're nowhere sort of looking now a little bit Josh Weinberg: Yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: forward to the next year. What what are you hopeful for this coming year? Josh Weinberg: Yeah. well I'm glad you're asked. Yeah. I I so I I'm hopeful for change. I'm hopeful for change. Both you sort of the top down we talked about the elections. I I do think that that we can make a change in Israel and I know that many Israeli citizens are coming from abroad to vote in the election despite some of the efforts of the Likud Party or the, you know, current government and I I I will be one of them coming to cast my vote as well. there are lots of big questions about that, but you know, as long as that's You know, as long as that's an option, then we will take it. and I think it's an important, you know, opportunity for us. A as well as in the United States, I think there's you know, there's a midterm election coming up in in November, and we'll want everyone to make sure that they exercise their civic duty to vote. And I'm hopeful about so many other things. I think there is a hunger and a thirst for Jewish engagement, for knowledge, for education, for learning. We're going to be starting a few cohorts and fellowships that are really, really exciting. and you know, they'll hear more about it as it as it comes. and so I'm I'm hopeful for that. I'm hopeful for more and more people coming to Israel in the coming year, whether that's you know, on our trips in the summer or the semester or even going on a a volunteer mission, is gonna be so critical for more people to be able to go. And I think that hopefully, you know. things like Iran or, you know, major episodes will allow that continued travel. so I'm hopeful for for so many things. Orley, what are you hopeful for in the coming year? Orly Erez Likhovski: Well, I I really agree with what you said about hunger. for something different. I think it's very evident in Israel as well. I think people are tired of a government that has not s been seeing them and people want something different, including a different kind of Judaism. I think we have we we we've done a lot of work, but we still have a lot of work ahead of us to educate Israelis about what liberal Judaism is, right? You mentioned this Israeli person who came to the camp and he's like, I like reform Judaism how Why don't you bring it to Israel? So we have a lot of work to to do, you know, of outreach to Israelis. And, you know, we this year we launched our exciting new initiative called the Reform Network, in which we offer Israelis to be part of the reform movement without joining a congregation. And I think people are looking for that for liberal Jewish content, especially around current affairs, things that are happening around us that have been framed in a very specific way, which is very illiberal. And we are showing them what, you know. liberal Jewish values are all about. And I I think this is really important going forward. And if to even after a change of government, there is still a lot of work to be done in this regard. And I think really this is a really important opportunity for change. It's not going to be simple. I do hope there's going to be political change, but it's you know it's as always nothing in Israel is simple. And there's like, you know, every every day we have like a new party. So who knows what's going to happen in the next two months until the elections. Josh Weinberg: Yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: we can we'll more deep dive into that more on the election webinar that we have on October eleventh, the URJ Arts Josh Weinberg: Yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: Artsaneu INPJ Iraq initiative. So that's gonna be exciting and you know we'll Josh Weinberg: That's kind of great. And we actually leading up to that, we have a whole series together with the with Israel Policy Forum starting on September ninth, sixteenth, twenty-third. We'll put the notes to all these in the in the notes of the podcast. But yes, do tune in where we can go deep and get really into the weeds on a lot of big questions that I think people have and helping to explain things, as you said, you know, constantly changing with new parties, new potential coalitions, new polls, you know, all of those things that are coming out in the Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, but yeah no but but we are definitely we are maintaining the hope and obviously we're not you know just sitting by but we are working very hard on both sides of the ocean to protect the integrity of both of our elections and you know preparing to see what what we can deal with hopefully a better government after the elections. So we have like a lot a lot of work on our hands. but but in general, yeah, I think a lot of you know, we we are we are hopeful and it's it is in this sense it's a special year that we do hope it's it's gonna be a year of change. yeah. Josh Weinberg: So so it's so it's good to be hopeful. Absolutely. anything that you're concerned about, anything that you're worried about in the coming year, I think that's okay. Let's also name our fears and and and what what we're worried about, what we hope you know won't come to fruition. Yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, well, first of all, I'm very worried about the elections, the election day itself, right? I mean, all the threats to the integrity of the elections, trying to suppress voting, trying to elicit violence in order to intimidate intimidate voters, not accepting the results of the elections, you know, January sixth, and those scenarios. We have a lot of really, really threatening scenarios. The good news is that, and by the way, I think it's really the the same on your side. The good news is that I think a lot of, you know, both we are dealing with that Iraq and many other organizations and we are trying to think ahead and to be prepared for all for every scenario. And in this sense I I really think we are coming very ready to this elections, you know, much more ready than in previous elections. And in this regard I believe believe we have a lot of energy and forces within the liberal camp to be able to, you know, withstand such such threats. how about you? Josh Weinberg: Yeah. Yeah. well I'm worried about the I'm worried I'm reminded of the famous, you know, Jewish joke where you send a telegram that says start worrying, details to follow. You know, start worrying now. Orly Erez Likhovski: Ha ha ha. Josh Weinberg: I'm worried about a lot. I'm worried about Israel, of course, and I'm worried about the it's not just a few lone you know, l lone hooligans or teens that are committing this this really egregious violence. in the West Bank. This this is a hu this is a systemic thing that's happening with support from, you know, people in in the in really high positions of power, in the government ministers, and it is it it it's it's already out of control, I I think. And and what you see is, you Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah. Cool I think. Josh Weinberg: know, the government or the the army working in tandem with with these groups of armed settlers, you know, almost a militia. you know, the the example of Kusra just, you know, these past couple of weeks, just just foments that all the more. So I I'm deeply, deeply concerned about that. And I'm deeply concerned about, you know, our hope. And I I just remember in past elections when I said, wait a second, you know, everybody in my neighborhood voted for the good guys, you know, voted for people who how how how did that not happen? Orly Erez Likhovski: How did this happen? Josh Weinberg: And and I don't want us to be blind to that. I want us to, you know, understand, you know, where the rest of the society is. on on this side of the ocean, I I am I'm deeply concerned about trends that we're seeing. especially those who are meant to be allies on certain issues that we care deeply about, like immigration or reproductive rights or gun violence protection, and you know, a whole slew of issues, you know, economic issues, all those things, and then have deeply problematic rhetoric around Israel. and some that I would say even, you know, go into the the realm of anti Semitic, saying, you know, Israel has no place to exist is America should, you know, rescind all support from Israel. and that that is deeply, deeply troubling. And we're gonna see that I think more. there's lots, you know, coming out about the the DSA versus the Democratic Party and and what that means. so we're watching that very carefully. And I think that, you know, some Jews will have to make a decision. you know, even if it could come at the expense of having, you know I just want to say that we're nonpartisan, non-political, but you know, a a a shift in either of the you know, of the houses of Congress, could we could see something like that. And I think, you know, we're seeing that in different states and different races. that's that's a big problem. And I also worry about, you know, broader that many Jews are walking away from Judaism or from the Jewish community because they because of Israel or because they see that this is you know, so divisive and they just don't want to have anything to do with it. And what I see a difference in in in among many American Jews who say, you know, and and someone c approached me yesterday at an event and said to me, Listen, I'm trying to talk to some of my friends and colleagues who said, you know, I just don't want to have anything to do with Israel because of its government. And you know, I just, you know, wipe cut me out. I I I want nothing to do with it anymore. and I said to him, I said, you know, would you say the same thing about America? Those same people probably wouldn't Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah. Josh Weinberg: support the administration of the United States. And they said, well, Orly Erez Likhovski: Course. Josh Weinberg: you know, it's a it's a it's a bit more complicated because they live in America and they pay taxes and they are raising their kids and et cetera. and so I I I worry that that's gonna be a a an upward trend. And I think that we need to do everything that we can to bring those people in and to really have meaningful conversations with them. And it's a very, very slow and arduous process of of doing that. So I worry about lots of things and those are, you know, sort of the top of mind at the moment. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah. Yeah. No, and I I I I I I I completely un agree with you and I I reiterate what you said about the West Bank, Josh Weinberg: Mm-hmm. Orly Erez Likhovski: which is something that really I I lose sleep about, the things that are happening there. I think that really talking to those people who want to disconnect from Israel in in North America, about the people who are trying to change things here is is, you know, maybe a way to to bring people back. as you say, obviously differentiating between the government and the people, it's also talking about you know, the the, you know. everybody who's leading the struggle for the values that we, you know, we share. so so I think that's but that's obviously I under s I understand the challenge. so yeah then Josh Weinberg: Yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: sh should do we want to talk about forgiveness? Josh Weinberg: Well, that is the season here in Elul is what we're meant to do, you know, that we have this forty day window from Rashkhodish Alul, from the beginning of Elul all the way through Yom Kippur, and some even say through the end of the season of Khagim, you the end after Simchat Torah, that you can ask for forgiveness and you can forgive. and sometimes, you know, we say the hardest words to say, at least you know, in English or in Hebrew, you know, are Slicha or I'm sorry. And it's hard to ask for forgiveness. And that's why, you know, n no one said it was easy to be Jewish, by the way. you know, it's it it's it's Orly Erez Likhovski: For sure. Josh Weinberg: it's hard. and so you know, thinking about forgiveness and asking for forgiveness, anyone that you want to ask forgiveness from and anyone that you want to you want to forgive? Orly Erez Likhovski: Well, I want to ask my husband for forgiveness for, you know, taking all my stress on him Josh Weinberg: No. Orly Erez Likhovski: when I was so busy and yeah, you know, this past year. and also my staff, which I've been, you know, writing sending WhatsApp on like, you know, 11 at night because, you know, we had like so many things to do. So that has not been easy. you know, trying to think of who I want to forgive. I can tell you who I'm not going to forgive, right? Josh Weinberg: Okay. Orly Erez Likhovski: Which is obviously this government, you know, obviously we're not going to forgive or forget the really terrible things that have been they have been doing and I know we should forgive, but I think for me it's like a sign of everything that we should not be doing, really just doing all the opposite things that they have been doing. I think it's a really sign of the terrible things that have been going on and the fact that we need to completely shift the direction into another direction. and I think we should really tell Israelis that we We should apologize of how Judaism has been presented to so many Israelis and the fact that they have been you know, just used to associate it with so many bad things, including the things that we are seeing now in the West Bank, and just to tell people, this is not our Judaism. We are bringing the voice of a different kind of Judaism that we believe most Israelis and definitely most Jews outside of Israel, you know, relate to. how about you? Josh Weinberg: Yeah, I know. Well, just to, you know, pick up on that, there's a lengthy discussion, of course, among, you know, rabbinic wisdom as to whether you can forgive someone who has not themselves asked for forgiveness, you know, in terms of are they ready to be forgiven or not. And so I I totally hear you. I don't think that the those members of the government see that they've done anything wrong. You know, they think that they're on the straight and right path. and that's even more, you know, troubling, I think. So first yeah, I think, you know, it goes without saying I wanna ask forgiveness from my wife and my family and, you know, my kids and for not being present for them as much as I could be as I'm always, you know, doing a webinar or visiting a congregation or traveling or, you know, not being present enough and that's something that we always, you know, need to I I I always need to work on for sure and address and Second, I want to ask for forgiveness for many in Israeli society who I think did not feel our embrace or our support enough. specifically those who don't make the headlines all the time. Like think about the thousands and thousands of Miloim, you reservist families who you know are struggling to make ends meet after they had to, you know, abandon their businesses for, you know, months and months at a time. I'm thinking of all the people who depend on tourism for their livelihood. you Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah. Josh Weinberg: know, whether it's tour guides and educators or anyone in that business. And I think that, you know, we just sort of said, okay, we're not going to Israel this year because of, you know, whatever. and that how does that impact them and they're members of our families and our communities and our movement? and and and that's and that's really hard. And also our own Israeli movement. I think that, you know, both the tourism and the dollar and just the situation has taken a a massive toll on our congregations, on our leaders, on our rabbis, et cetera. And I think that we need to you know, really make a commitment this coming year to be more supportive, more embracing, you know, coming more and and being outward. And I think that's that's important. and I want to ask yeah please, yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: Well yeah, I can tell I can tell you we di we we definitely felt your support and the fact that you were with us and it as I said before it really meant a lot. So yeah. Josh Weinberg: Y well, you know, and it's always a case of not enough, but Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah. Josh Weinberg: I think, you know, we need to w we'll we'll we'll think about that for sure. and I wanna, you know, ask forgiveness from those in our community here who felt that their voices were not heard or that we, you know, were trying to, you know, really be the rabbis or the, you know, leaders to all of our congregations and and and all of our people and You know, sometimes we miss the mark on that and sometimes we you know w maybe I'd said something that you know sat well with one person but not with another, and that's that's that's really difficult. And so I wanna I I wanna ask for forgiveness for all those who felt that they weren't heard or weren't seen in in in a serious way and to try and you know move forward and and do better in the coming year. Okay. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, I think this is good point stop and say again that I think we are You know, the sort of the the the the bottom line is that we are looking Josh Weinberg: Mm-hmm. Orly Erez Likhovski: back with, you know, compassion and understanding of what we've been through and looking ahead with hope and resilience and a lot of energy for the coming month, which are gonna be challenging. and I wanna say to you again, Josh, thank you for this weekly episodes, which are really, Josh Weinberg: No, thank you. Orly Erez Likhovski: really meaningful for me and I think for many, many people, Josh Weinberg: Yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: both in Israel and outside of Israel, and for all of our listeners, you know, that have been following us, listeners and viewers on YouTube. So it's yeah, it's very meaningful for us to get the responses and for you to get the message across to as many people as possible. Josh Weinberg: Orly, first of all, th thank you and this has given me a lot of a lot of meaning and and I hope that it it it it inspires others. and thinking more broadly, I I'm I'm hopeful and what I wish for in the coming year is that Israelis and Jews around the world will stop seeing one another as competing camps and remember that we still need each other. That we can argue passionately about Israel, about all the issues, while still remain bound together by a covenant of peoplehood, actually. And I'm hopeful for Reform Judaism, actually, for Judaism that is competent enough to embrace complexity, courageous enough to challenge injustice, and deeply committed to Israel while never giving up on the possibility of exactly what you said to try and make Israel a better place. And most of all, I'm hopeful that this coming year, Will remind us that hope is not the belief that everything will work out on its own. Hope is the decision to keep working for the world that we want to see. And may this year be a year of healing, of courage, of increased partnership, and of course, hope. And so I want to wish all of our listeners a Shannatova. End of change. End Orly Erez Likhovski: And and of and of political ch and of political change. Josh Weinberg: of change, of course. Orly Erez Likhovski: So conversations like this are exactly why we started and we're why we're having this podcast. This podcast exists because we believe Israel can be better for all who live here and for all who care about it from afar. But that takes honest conversation and it takes partnership. So if this conversations are important to you, please share this episode and help us keep this conversation going. Josh Weinberg: To stay up to date, subscribe on YouTube wherever you listen to podcasts. If you want to help us grow, make an engaging post on social media, maybe something like this. I have so much to worry about, but also because I listen to the pluralist podcast, I am now hopeful for the future. Some something like that, you know. You can you can add lit, but really to think about you know how much this has inspired you for hope. And when you think about that high holiday appeal, when you think about sitting in your pews. Listening to an inspiring sermon or music that just lifts you up to think about wait a second, I could be doing more. I could be helping our movement in Israel, I could be helping reach the thousands who may identify as reformed Jews but haven't quite yet made that connection with the movement. I could be thinking about the thousands of people who are struggling to build something that is meaningful and that is deep and that will make significant change in Israeli society. And I could help through a modest or an immodest donation, to to our reform movement in Israel, to Iraq, to the IMPJ, to Arta, to all of these organizations that are really working to to to to build a better future. And I hope that you can find your way to do that. Thank you so much and wishing everyone a Shana Tovah Umituka. Orly Erez Likhovski: Shanato va, bye bye.