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SCHOOL-SHOOTER-MOM GUILTY: Ignored Son's Filthy Room, Cavities & 9mm · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:05
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Greace.
0:14
Speaker 2: Guilty, absolutely guilty, and an incredible and historic jury verdict.
0:23
Speaker 2: The mother of a teen school shooter, a killer has
0:30
Speaker 2: been found guilty in connection with her sons shooting spree. Now,
0:37
Speaker 2: first that might sit wrong with you, but when you
0:41
Speaker 2: hear the evidence you may very well agree with the jury.
0:47
Speaker 3: I mean, see Grace, this is Crime Stories. Thank you
0:50
Speaker 3: for being with us.
0:51
Speaker 2: Here at Crime Stories and on serious xem one eleven.
0:55
Speaker 3: Take a listen to the jury verdict.
0:57
Speaker 4: On count one of involuntary manslaughter to Madison Boldwin, we
1:01
Speaker 4: find the defendant guilty of involuntary manslaughter. On count two
1:06
Speaker 4: of involuntary manslaughter. In regards to Titior, we find the
1:09
Speaker 4: defendant guilty of involuntary manslaughter. On count three as to
1:14
Speaker 4: involuntary manslaughter regarding Hannah Hanna Saint Juliana, we find the
1:18
Speaker 4: defendant guilty of involuntary manslaughter. And in count four of
1:23
Speaker 4: involuntary manslaughter against Joke and Shilling, we find the defendant
1:27
Speaker 4: guilty of involuntary manslaughter.
1:29
Speaker 2: You are hearing the jury for person calling out in
1:33
Speaker 2: open court that the defendant Jennifer Cromley, the mother of
1:37
Speaker 2: school shooter Ethan Cromley is in fact guilty of manslaughter herself. Now,
1:45
Speaker 2: to many people, that turns the criminal justice code on
1:48
Speaker 2: its ear. I disagree. I believe the jury is correct
1:53
Speaker 2: and you're going to see why. For those of you
1:54
Speaker 2: that do not remember the infamous school shooting listen, guys.
2:10
Speaker 5: Are gonna take that list right now.
2:13
Speaker 2: We're not taking that list right now.
2:15
Speaker 6: Okay?
2:15
Speaker 7: Well bro, yeah, bro, he said bro.
2:22
Speaker 8: Red Flags.
2:47
Speaker 3: Joining me an all star panel makes sense of what
2:49
Speaker 3: we're hearing.
2:50
Speaker 2: First to Cheryl mccollumn, cold case investigative Research Institute, founder
2:54
Speaker 2: at coldcase crimes dot orgon host of the hit series
2:59
Speaker 2: Zone seven, Cheryl McCollum, very quickly, what you're hearing right
3:03
Speaker 2: There are students barricaded. They've barricaded themselves behind doors, locked doors,
3:10
Speaker 2: and law enforcements trying to get them to come out,
3:13
Speaker 2: and they're so afraid. They're like, he said, bro, we're
3:15
Speaker 2: not coming out.
3:16
Speaker 3: That's not a cop. Then you hear rustling as they.
3:20
Speaker 2: Finally decide to run out and whimpering and crying.
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Speaker 3: You have two children.
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Speaker 2: Can you even imagine at age fourteen fifteen them barricading
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Speaker 2: themselves behind a door at school trying to determine should
3:38
Speaker 2: they come out or not after they've seen their classmates
3:41
Speaker 2: gunned down and dying in the floor at school.
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Speaker 5: Nancy, it was difficult for me when they just went
3:49
Speaker 5: through drills of how to hide in their classroom. The
3:53
Speaker 5: reality of just having to have a drill, well, it's
3:58
Speaker 5: pitiful hearing what you've just played. The reality of what
4:03
Speaker 5: those children went through at the hands of a classmate
4:08
Speaker 5: is unfathomable.
4:09
Speaker 2: The state is arguing that the school shooter Ethan Crumbley,
4:13
Speaker 2: fifteen years old at the time, that he was completely
4:17
Speaker 2: neglected by his parents, that they ignored him, begging for
4:23
Speaker 2: mental health, that he dreamed and thought of and planned
4:28
Speaker 2: quote shooting the school up.
4:30
Speaker 3: His words, not mine.
4:32
Speaker 2: Drawing pictures are murdering people saying my life is useless.
4:37
Speaker 2: Why am I even here? I want to die. I
4:41
Speaker 2: will die. I will go out after I shoot up
4:45
Speaker 2: the school. How can you not know this? But if
4:48
Speaker 2: you don't believe me, I want you to hear this. Okay,
4:54
Speaker 2: a red flag, screaming neg.
5:01
Speaker 3: Listen the horrible brushing his teeth.
5:04
Speaker 9: He wanted these the water quick we got him. He
5:07
Speaker 9: went rush properly through the classic cavities and his braces,
5:11
Speaker 9: so we end up taking the wire about and one
5:13
Speaker 9: time I had thirteen havites through the braces.
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Speaker 10: The prosecution claims Crumbly failed on many occasions to repeatedly
5:21
Speaker 10: provide ordinary care for her son, including but not limited
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Speaker 10: to providing mental health care. The prosecution argued it was
5:29
Speaker 10: clear that he needed help and that he asked for it.
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Speaker 2: Thirteen cavities under his braces. Okay, I know we're talking
5:42
Speaker 2: about a mascul shooting.
5:46
Speaker 3: I've been to many.
5:48
Speaker 2: Mass murder sayings myself, I know how horrible they are.
5:55
Speaker 2: The state is arguing Ethan Cromley's parents totally neglected him,
6:01
Speaker 2: including his cries for help. Is he guilty, Oh yeah,
6:05
Speaker 2: he's guilty. Are they guilty? Oh yeah, they're guilty. Cassidy
6:13
Speaker 2: john Cox is joining me, senior digital news editor from
6:16
Speaker 2: click on Detroit dot Com. Cassidy, thirteen cavities. They let
6:25
Speaker 2: this child's mouth get in that bad of shape. And
6:30
Speaker 2: remember she said one time he had thirteen cavities? Really
6:36
Speaker 2: what happened the other times? I mean, on the stand,
6:41
Speaker 2: what evidence came out that the parents didn't have time
6:46
Speaker 2: for him? The moms to be busy, have an affair
6:49
Speaker 2: with the fire chief. I mean, what do we know
6:55
Speaker 2: about his cries for help? He tried to tell his
6:59
Speaker 2: parents and he wanted to shoot up the school.
7:02
Speaker 11: That's true, Nancy. So prosecutors introduced a ton of evidence
7:06
Speaker 11: throughout this case, and we saw the journal evidence written
7:10
Speaker 11: by the shooter saying that he had asked his parents
7:12
Speaker 11: for help repeatedly, he could not get help for his
7:15
Speaker 11: mental health. No one was listening to him. And he
7:18
Speaker 11: also shared text messages with a friend saying I asked
7:22
Speaker 11: my parents for help and I'm struggling. And in court,
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Speaker 11: when Jennifer Crumbley testified on her own behalf, she said
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Speaker 11: those conversations did not happen. She never told her son
7:32
Speaker 11: he could not receive help. But she also said that
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Speaker 11: there had never been an instance where she had secured
7:37
Speaker 11: help for her son.
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Speaker 2: Joining me, Doctor Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst, joining us so you
7:42
Speaker 2: can find her at doctor Bethany Marshall dot com. Doctor Bethany.
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Speaker 2: I'm not saying Ethan Cromley is innocent, because he's not.
7:51
Speaker 2: He murdered his classmates and he will be in jail
7:56
Speaker 2: the rest of his life.
7:58
Speaker 3: But I'm not done yet.
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Speaker 2: Way in there is no way in Hublel that this
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Speaker 2: mom and dad had no idea that their son was
8:11
Speaker 2: at a crisis point and his answer was to shoot
8:15
Speaker 2: at the school with the gun they gave him.
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Speaker 12: Nancy, there's three forms of abuse, sexual abuse, physical abuse,
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Speaker 12: and neglect. Neglect. In my field, this kid was neglected.
8:27
Speaker 12: Neglect is considered a worse form of abuse than physical
8:32
Speaker 12: or sexual. And the reason for that is that when
8:35
Speaker 12: you're hit by your parents, at least you know you exist.
8:38
Speaker 12: When they don't talk to you and they don't provide
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Speaker 12: medical care, when they do not return your texts, you
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Speaker 12: no longer feel.
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Speaker 11: Like a person.
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Speaker 12: You're an it. So no wonder a kid like that
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Speaker 12: is primed with other mental health issues to go and
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Speaker 12: shoot up a school, because this is this one moment
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Speaker 12: of determining and sending a signal to the world. I exist,
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Speaker 12: I can shoot people, kill them. I am a person.
9:01
Speaker 2: Cassidy John Coggs jumping off what doctor Bethany Marshall just said.
9:04
Speaker 2: Cassidy is joining us from click on Detroit dot Com. Cassidy,
9:09
Speaker 2: wasn't there a text that Ethan Cromley sent his mom
9:13
Speaker 2: to the effect, can't you even just respond?
9:16
Speaker 3: Can't you just text me back? Yes he did.
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Speaker 11: He had sent several text messages to her saying things like,
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Speaker 11: I'm seeing demons, the house is haunted, things are flying
9:27
Speaker 11: around the room, and she never responded, and so he
9:30
Speaker 11: sent another text in secession saying.
9:32
Speaker 13: Can you please just respond to me?
9:34
Speaker 11: And prosecutors really made a point of that, saying, you know,
9:37
Speaker 11: why wouldn't you respond to these messages? And when Jennifer
9:40
Speaker 11: Crumbley took the stand, she said, these were just jokes
9:44
Speaker 11: between our family, these conversations about ghosts in the house.
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Speaker 11: We all set into it, and we all, you know,
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Speaker 11: named the jokes, named the.
9:51
Speaker 3: Ghost Boris Johnson. Yes, I know, well, yes, yeah, but
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Speaker 3: what type of text was he sending?
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Speaker 2: What was he And it's a sad day when the
10:03
Speaker 2: only way you can talk to your mom is through
10:06
Speaker 2: a text.
10:07
Speaker 3: Yeah. I texted my children all day long.
10:09
Speaker 2: They're not supposed to have their phones at school, but
10:11
Speaker 2: sometimes they look in between classes. I hope it's between classes,
10:16
Speaker 2: and I respond immediately. I'm happy when they've texted me,
10:21
Speaker 2: But it seems like that's the only communications they were having,
10:24
Speaker 2: and the mom wouldn't even text back.
10:26
Speaker 12: That's true.
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Speaker 11: Yeah, they did say, you know that the horse barn
10:30
Speaker 11: where she did spend a few days a week in
10:32
Speaker 11: the afternoons after work, that her cellular service was in
10:36
Speaker 11: and out. That was part of her defense. So she
10:38
Speaker 11: claims that, you know, she could not respond in certain instances,
10:42
Speaker 11: and then she gave him a call back apparently after
10:45
Speaker 11: those texts that he sent. Can you please just respond?
10:47
Speaker 11: But it was a short call and you know one
10:50
Speaker 11: we haven't heard listen.
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Speaker 10: Brian Malosh was a longtime friend of Crumbly who also
10:55
Speaker 10: had an affair with her. In twenty twenty one, he
10:58
Speaker 10: testified about his relationship with Jennifer Crumbly after Ethan Crumbley
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Speaker 10: opened fire inside the school. Jennifer Crumbly texted Malosh that
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Speaker 10: the massacre quote could have been prevented. The message was
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Speaker 10: revealed in court. Crumbly also texted him about the school's
11:14
Speaker 10: response to Ethan's disturbing doodle of a mass shooting and
11:17
Speaker 10: the fact that a teacher caught Ethan Crumbley searching for
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Speaker 10: ammunition online on his phone. Crumby described the school's attitude
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Speaker 10: about these incidences as nonchalant.
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Speaker 1: Prime stories with Nancy Grace, the mom.
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Speaker 2: Apparently was more concerned about her sex affair with the fireman.
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Speaker 2: How did that get into Evans Cassidy John Cox, Well.
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Speaker 11: Actually, Nancy, it wasn't supposed to be brought into evidence.
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Speaker 11: The judge had declared many many months ago that cut
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Speaker 11: the topic of the mother's extrameri affair was not going
12:04
Speaker 11: to be part of this trial and that it would,
12:07
Speaker 11: you know, create a prejudice among the jury. And so
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Speaker 11: it actually came out in the middle of trial when
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Speaker 11: when Brian Malosch was testifying and he was introduced initially
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Speaker 11: as a friend, and after conversations, you know, the defense
12:23
Speaker 11: was asking a line of questioning that the prosecutor said,
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Speaker 11: we're getting dangerously close to announcing to this jury that
12:29
Speaker 11: you know, there is an affair between these two people,
12:32
Speaker 11: and the defense after some conversation with the judge, they
12:34
Speaker 11: ultimately decided we're going to let this out. We're going
12:36
Speaker 11: to air it all out and let everyone know all
12:38
Speaker 11: the truth. We have nothing to hide.
12:40
Speaker 3: Listen, mister Laws.
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Speaker 10: We were talking about it.
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Speaker 2: There are three different times that you spoke to police.
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Speaker 14: Correct, It's fair that from the very beginning, the first
12:49
Speaker 14: time you talked to police, you told police that you
12:53
Speaker 14: and missus.
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Speaker 2: Crumbley had had an extramarital affair.
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Speaker 6: Correct.
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Speaker 14: You told police from the very begin your relationship with
13:02
Speaker 14: Missus Crumbley involved a sexual relationship.
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Speaker 2: Correct.
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Speaker 10: And so when you're in here testifying, it's.
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Speaker 2: Fair to say that law enforcement talked to you about
13:14
Speaker 2: the affair right after the shooting.
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Speaker 6: You told them all about it, right, I'm sorry?
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Speaker 2: Yes, Well, Kathleen Murphy joining me veteran trial lawyer and
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Speaker 2: family law That sounds cozy, right, It's not joining me
13:29
Speaker 2: out of North Carolina at Triangle Divorce Lawyers dot com.
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Speaker 2: Kathleen Murphy, that was a big screw up. That's like
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Speaker 2: a bomb in the courtroom. You don't have enough time
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Speaker 2: for your son's begging for help, but you got time
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Speaker 2: to sling up with your boyfriend.
13:48
Speaker 3: They're married.
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Speaker 13: How did the defense attorney think that that was okay
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Speaker 13: information to let into evidence?
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Speaker 2: I do not know, but I know Kathleen Murphy would
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Speaker 2: have thought tooth and nailed to keep that out. But
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Speaker 2: I don't care who's sleeping with who and who's cheating
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Speaker 2: on who. None of my business. Don't care unless it
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Speaker 2: has something to do with this crime.
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Speaker 3: And it does. Because Cheryl McCollum.
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Speaker 2: Isn't it correct that the day Ethan Crimley opened fire
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Speaker 2: and murdered his classmates fifteen years old, he.
14:22
Speaker 3: Was called to the principal's office.
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Speaker 2: I believe a teacher had seen some of his drawings
14:27
Speaker 2: or something he had drawn or written that suggested he
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Speaker 2: was going to shoot somebody.
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Speaker 7: Correct.
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Speaker 3: They go to the office, they call the parents.
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Speaker 2: The parents come over, and the mom is texting back
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Speaker 2: and forth with her lover about their plans to get
14:42
Speaker 2: together and have sex. I don't know that they ever
14:45
Speaker 2: did that day, but I know that that's what she
14:48
Speaker 2: was focused on.
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Speaker 5: Nancy, she goes to the school and sees a drawing
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Speaker 5: of the very gun they bought him and owned, that
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Speaker 5: same paper he had written, and the words help me.
15:03
Speaker 5: She is at the school for eleven minutes, eleven minutes
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Speaker 5: with five adults.
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Speaker 12: In the room.
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Speaker 5: Nancy, you and I the other day had a conversation
15:14
Speaker 5: about you vacuum in it up after the guinea pigs
15:17
Speaker 5: that lasted longer than eleven minutes. Yes, it is beyond
15:23
Speaker 5: insane that somebody could see their child write the words
15:29
Speaker 5: help me and not have their whole world stop until
15:33
Speaker 5: they understood, what do you need from me. What can
15:36
Speaker 5: I do for you right now?
15:38
Speaker 3: Cheryl?
15:38
Speaker 2: I know I sound angry. I am angry. I'm angry.
15:44
Speaker 2: Not just because Ethan Cromley needed help and he was
15:50
Speaker 2: completely ignored. But I got to tell you. You know, I
15:54
Speaker 2: don't really care who sleeps with who. As long as
15:56
Speaker 2: it's not my husband, I don't care. But the fact
15:59
Speaker 2: that she's more worried about hooking up with her lover
16:03
Speaker 2: when her son is drawing pictures of mass shootings and
16:08
Speaker 2: writing please help me, and she leaves. I'm sad about that.
16:15
Speaker 2: I'm angry about that. But I'm more upset about is
16:19
Speaker 2: because of this. Those children are dead every day John
16:26
Speaker 2: David Lucy go to school.
16:28
Speaker 3: I think they're safe. Think about these parents.
16:32
Speaker 2: Cheryl, that get the call there's a school shooting, and
16:36
Speaker 2: they look and they look and they wait for their
16:38
Speaker 2: child to come running out to their arms, and they
16:41
Speaker 2: never come, and they never come, and they never come,
16:44
Speaker 2: and everybody's leaving and their child hasn't come out yet.
16:48
Speaker 2: What about that while mommy's out banging it with her lover.
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Speaker 3: Her son is preparing a school shooting.
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Speaker 5: And he told them every way he could.
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Speaker 12: He flat wrote it.
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Speaker 13: He said, it.
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Speaker 5: And here's the thing. They had him. Five adults had
17:08
Speaker 5: him in a room with that backpack. One adults even said, man,
17:12
Speaker 5: it's really heavy. The mom knew he had access to
17:15
Speaker 5: a gun. They're looking at a drawing of a gun
17:18
Speaker 5: he had said, I'm gonna have to shoot up the school.
17:21
Speaker 5: I can't get these images out of my head. Every
17:24
Speaker 5: single parent that lost a child and had a child
17:29
Speaker 5: harmed by ethan, I don't know how you get past
17:35
Speaker 5: it knowing that five adults had him and could have
17:39
Speaker 5: stopped it within minutes of it occurring.
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Speaker 2: Cheryl McCollum and Cassie John Haawx joining us from click
17:47
Speaker 2: on Detroit dot com are exactly correct. All the warning
17:51
Speaker 2: signs were there. I don't know what else it would
17:55
Speaker 2: have taken other than the journal to jump up and
17:58
Speaker 2: bite the mom on the neck. And I just want
18:01
Speaker 2: you to hear this. I'm talking about the mom because
18:03
Speaker 2: she's the one that went on trial. It's daddy's turn next,
18:06
Speaker 2: and guess what he has said after Mommy's convicted quote.
18:10
Speaker 2: It's a systemic issue because of poor school oversight and
18:17
Speaker 2: slow response times to the mass shootings.
18:20
Speaker 3: Is he kidding me?
18:22
Speaker 2: He's blaming slow response times by the police to a
18:28
Speaker 2: mass shooting that his son did, and systemic issues of
18:32
Speaker 2: poor school overs talk about oversight.
18:36
Speaker 3: My rare end.
18:36
Speaker 2: Man.
18:37
Speaker 3: You're going down.
18:39
Speaker 2: You might as well try to cut a deal right now,
18:41
Speaker 2: Ethan Cromley's dad, because you are going to jail man
18:46
Speaker 2: for a long time.
18:47
Speaker 3: Don't believe me. Listen.
18:49
Speaker 2: Listen to Lieutenant Timothy Willis on the stand and reading
18:55
Speaker 2: the journal with.
18:56
Speaker 15: Their passages in there. In request for mental health helps.
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Speaker 12: Yes, the shooter.
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Speaker 6: Writes, I have zero help to be for our mental
19:05
Speaker 6: problems and it's causing me to shoots at the school.
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Speaker 2: Did you hear that, Cassidy John hawks, I have zero
19:11
Speaker 2: help for my mental problems and it's causing me to
19:14
Speaker 2: shoot up the school.
19:18
Speaker 3: His words, not mine.
19:20
Speaker 2: Those words were in his journal prior to the school shooting.
19:26
Speaker 11: That's correct, and the parents have both said that they
19:28
Speaker 11: did not see the journal, they had no idea that
19:31
Speaker 11: their son was writing these things, and that they had
19:34
Speaker 11: or at least the mother testified recently that she had
19:37
Speaker 11: no indication, no reason to believe that her son was
19:41
Speaker 11: unwell mentally that he required help.
19:44
Speaker 2: Doctor Bethany Marshall, I hear parents say I don't want
19:47
Speaker 2: to violate their privacy. B S. The first thing I
19:51
Speaker 2: did when I found out Lucy had a journal was
19:53
Speaker 2: read it. And that's where I got the awful news
19:55
Speaker 2: that she wanted the babysitter to be her mommy because
19:58
Speaker 2: the babysitter didn't have any rules and she could do whatever.
20:01
Speaker 3: She wanted to do.
20:02
Speaker 2: After I had a word with miss Michelle, Okay, of
20:05
Speaker 2: course you should read the journal.
20:07
Speaker 12: Of course she should read the journal. Parenting one one.
20:11
Speaker 12: But the fact that she didn't read the journal means
20:14
Speaker 12: that she's disinterested in him. That's what it tells me.
20:17
Speaker 12: It's not just poor parenting, it's neglect. It's lack of interest.
20:21
Speaker 12: And you know about father's statement that it's the school
20:23
Speaker 12: official's fault if he is so unempathic towards the slain
20:29
Speaker 12: students towards their families, Imagine how unempathic and disinterested he
20:35
Speaker 12: was in his own child. It gives us insight into
20:39
Speaker 12: what was happening in that home. And one more quick thing, Nancy,
20:43
Speaker 12: school shooters always write about it ahead of time.
20:46
Speaker 3: Oh they do, don't they They do always?
20:49
Speaker 12: So how did the school officials overlook that that's the
20:53
Speaker 12: number one warning sign of a shooter. They write about it.
20:57
Speaker 2: To doctor Jeffrey Jensen joining us, very well known professor
21:02
Speaker 2: forensic pathology, director of Autopsy and Forensic Services at University
21:07
Speaker 2: of Michigan Medical School, and a former medical examiner in
21:12
Speaker 2: Milwaukee County. Of course, never a lack of business. I'm
21:17
Speaker 2: sad to say, Dr Jensen, thank you for being with us.
21:20
Speaker 2: Got a question for you. You heard the sound. I
21:23
Speaker 2: don't want to play any other sound from the killings
21:26
Speaker 2: because I don't think I can bear to hear it.
21:30
Speaker 2: But you heard the students barricaded in a room, and
21:35
Speaker 2: when they finally decide they're going to run out, they
21:38
Speaker 2: don't know if they're running straight into a shooter, straight
21:40
Speaker 2: into bullets. Some of them are whimpering and your cries
21:44
Speaker 2: of fear as and they're all rushing out.
21:48
Speaker 3: Do you believe that these shooting victims, the students.
21:52
Speaker 2: That were murdered that day, could have seen and understood
21:56
Speaker 2: what was happening around them. Sixteen year old Tate Meyer,
22:01
Speaker 2: Tang Girl mass and ball Well, Hannah Saint Juliana, Justin Shilling,
22:05
Speaker 2: the others six were wounded.
22:07
Speaker 8: You know, Nancy. One of the things that one of
22:10
Speaker 8: the things forensic pathologists do is to opine on issues
22:14
Speaker 8: of pain and suffering. And you know, you can almost
22:18
Speaker 8: anticipate that, with the impending sense of doom and fear
22:24
Speaker 8: for their own lives, that all these children, though the
22:29
Speaker 8: unfortunate victims as well as the survivors, are going to
22:33
Speaker 8: have pain and suffering with emotional anxiety and just a
22:38
Speaker 8: fear of their own death.
22:40
Speaker 3: I'm just imagining lying there hearing all your classmates running
22:45
Speaker 3: and crying and screaming, and.
22:51
Speaker 2: You know, something horrible has happened. I don't know what
22:54
Speaker 2: you can feel. I don't know if the children knew they.
22:58
Speaker 3: Had been shot. I guess they did.
23:01
Speaker 8: Go ahead, doctor, yeah, this is this is a classic
23:04
Speaker 8: case of medical neglect. Forensic pathologists to see forms of
23:11
Speaker 8: medical medical neglect and a number of different kind of cases,
23:14
Speaker 8: and I typically sign these out as homicides. But in
23:19
Speaker 8: this case, you've got, you know, the the actual victim.
23:22
Speaker 8: One of the victims is still alive. You know, you
23:26
Speaker 8: you grieve for the four children that were shot, but
23:31
Speaker 8: the other victim is this child who is denied medical
23:36
Speaker 8: care and basically his life is over too, with a
23:43
Speaker 8: life sentence without parole.
23:45
Speaker 3: His life has gone to it is doctor Jensen. It
23:49
Speaker 3: is I'm thinking back on what we're hearing. But there's more.
23:54
Speaker 2: There is more in this journals.
23:58
Speaker 15: Were there any general in He's about the shooter's access
24:01
Speaker 15: to the night blimer?
24:02
Speaker 6: Here, I guy here where the shooter rights?
24:04
Speaker 2: First Off, I got my gun.
24:06
Speaker 10: It's a SP twenty twenty.
24:08
Speaker 6: Two six hour nine millimeter.
24:10
Speaker 8: Second, the shooting is tomorrow.
24:13
Speaker 6: I had access to the gun and the animal.
24:16
Speaker 2: I am fully.
24:17
Speaker 8: Committed this to this now.
24:21
Speaker 15: So yeah, I'm going to prison for life.
24:24
Speaker 6: And many people have about one day left to live.
24:27
Speaker 8: That's really tragic. It's it's that's the smoking gun, so
24:31
Speaker 8: to speak.
24:32
Speaker 3: Yes, it is.
24:34
Speaker 2: And what I think about a sig sour SB twenty
24:39
Speaker 2: twenty two nine millimeter being unleashed on children walking from
24:45
Speaker 2: class to class. And he details all of this and
24:48
Speaker 2: so much more in the journal.
24:50
Speaker 3: And there's more you're hearing.
24:52
Speaker 2: Lieutenant Timothy Willis on the stand, listen, PA to five.
24:56
Speaker 15: Can you read this tanta quot and this one the
24:58
Speaker 15: shooter rights.
25:00
Speaker 6: I want help, but my parents don't listen to me,
25:03
Speaker 6: and I can't get any help shooter REGs. My parents
25:06
Speaker 6: won't listen to me about help or therapist.
25:10
Speaker 2: My parents won't listen to me about help or a therapist,
25:16
Speaker 2: and more.
25:17
Speaker 15: Sir in the Journal of Wizard entries about the shooter's
25:20
Speaker 15: desires to obtain a nine million or handgun. Yes, the
25:23
Speaker 15: suter rights.
25:24
Speaker 6: I want to shoot up the school so badly. Soon
25:28
Speaker 6: I'm going to buy a nine millimeter pistol.
25:31
Speaker 15: Sure where they're any passages regarding the shooter's planning for
25:35
Speaker 15: the actual student?
25:36
Speaker 6: Absolutly shooter recx, I'm about to shoot up the school
25:39
Speaker 6: and send the rest of my life in prisons.
25:42
Speaker 2: I don't know how it could have been any more
25:45
Speaker 2: play than it was if the parents had even bothered
25:49
Speaker 2: to look in the journal. Joining me now is an
25:51
Speaker 2: expert in school security. Elisa Mula is joining us, expert
25:58
Speaker 2: and advocate in child school safety and security. Alisa, thank
26:02
Speaker 2: you for being with us. One question, when the teachers
26:06
Speaker 2: see and this actually happened at my twins elementary school
26:10
Speaker 2: in a different grade, a younger grade, a third grade
26:13
Speaker 2: little girl was writing on her papers about shooting people
26:19
Speaker 2: and hanging people.
26:21
Speaker 3: They immediately took her.
26:23
Speaker 2: To the principal's office, called the parents over and got
26:26
Speaker 2: her in counseling. Immediately So my question is if the
26:30
Speaker 2: school was afraid or concerned, and they even said, like
26:35
Speaker 2: Cheryl mccallugh pointed out, wow, this backpack is heavy.
26:38
Speaker 3: I mean, don't they know about Parkland?
26:39
Speaker 2: For Pete's sake, could they have called police themselves? I mean,
26:43
Speaker 2: the kids writing about shooting at.
26:45
Speaker 16: The school, they absolutely could have called police themselves. They
26:48
Speaker 16: could have taken a look in his book bag, you know,
26:51
Speaker 16: they could have reported his parents. In terms of neglect,
26:56
Speaker 16: I'd like to see if there were any reports on
26:59
Speaker 16: behald this school to alert anyone of the distress this
27:03
Speaker 16: child was in and maybe put him in some level
27:07
Speaker 16: of a program with the school. Nowadays, they didn't have
27:11
Speaker 16: this years ago, but nowadays there's some sort of standard
27:15
Speaker 16: in most schools. In fact, this sort of came about
27:18
Speaker 16: with the Obama administration that they implement a certain level
27:22
Speaker 16: of training for bullying, anti bullying, any sort of troubled
27:28
Speaker 16: situation like this.
27:30
Speaker 11: So what did the school do?
27:32
Speaker 16: That's my number one question?
27:33
Speaker 2: And to you, Kessidy John Coggs joining us click Ondetroit
27:36
Speaker 2: dot com, what if anything did the school do well?
27:40
Speaker 11: As far as we know, Nancy, the school, there are
27:42
Speaker 11: several teachers who were alerted to some strange behavior by
27:46
Speaker 11: the shooter in the weeks and the days leading up
27:48
Speaker 11: to the shooting, and it got to the point where
27:51
Speaker 11: eventually the counselor decided to call in the mother and
27:54
Speaker 11: the father the day of the shooting when they found
27:56
Speaker 11: that math assignment with the violent drawings and phrases that's
28:00
Speaker 11: saying the voices won't stop.
28:02
Speaker 13: Help me, but the school.
28:05
Speaker 11: The counselor testified that he had intended the next day
28:10
Speaker 11: if the shooter didn't get help with mental health within
28:13
Speaker 11: forty eight hours, like he had asked the parents to do,
28:16
Speaker 11: he was going to call child protective Services the next
28:18
Speaker 11: morning if nothing had changed. That is as far as
28:21
Speaker 11: we know what they were planning to do in that
28:23
Speaker 11: situation planning.
28:24
Speaker 2: So they were talking about what they were going to
28:27
Speaker 2: do and they never did anything.
28:28
Speaker 12: That's so terrible because writing about the crime is the
28:31
Speaker 12: precursor to doing it. You don't want to wait forty
28:34
Speaker 12: eight hours when they get to the point where they're
28:37
Speaker 12: acting strange. And it sounds like he was also fragmenting,
28:40
Speaker 12: he was delusional. He has to be yanked out right away.
28:45
Speaker 12: He has to be put on a fifty two to fifty,
28:47
Speaker 12: which is an involuntary seventy two hour hold. That is,
28:50
Speaker 12: when you hold somebody involuntarily because they're danger to self
28:53
Speaker 12: or others. That was the easiest, most immediate solution, not
28:57
Speaker 12: calling the parents, even in at that point calling nine
29:00
Speaker 12: to one, Why I jump in?
29:02
Speaker 3: Yes? Please?
29:03
Speaker 5: His complete shooting spree lasted nine minutes. You give him
29:08
Speaker 5: forty eight hours. How much more destruction could there have been?
29:13
Speaker 2: Speaking of ignoring his cries for help, you earlier heard
29:18
Speaker 2: the mom describing thirteen cavities under his braces before he was.
29:25
Speaker 3: Taken to the dentist. Well, listen to this.
29:30
Speaker 9: My son, he had one measure room and they got
29:34
Speaker 9: and every time I go to the thing, I.
29:35
Speaker 8: Just shut the door.
29:36
Speaker 14: Wanted the little bit.
29:37
Speaker 9: So then I told him you could just us the
29:39
Speaker 9: guys pleasure so I can get his roomdeat clean.
29:41
Speaker 2: Okay, hold on, whoa, I'm not sure why. I know
29:46
Speaker 2: that this is really wrong. Dr Bethony Marshall. You may
29:50
Speaker 2: need to guide me through this year the shrink, but
29:53
Speaker 2: I know when your child's room is so disgusting, you
29:59
Speaker 2: don't make him clan his room.
30:01
Speaker 3: No, you don't clean up his room. You just shut
30:03
Speaker 3: the door.
30:04
Speaker 2: And leave it for weeks and months on end and
30:06
Speaker 2: say hey, stay in the guest room until I get
30:08
Speaker 2: that thing deep poined, and then do nothing. Okay, there's
30:12
Speaker 2: something really wrong with that. And what does it have
30:14
Speaker 2: to do with the school shooting? Because I would have
30:17
Speaker 2: to think it through. I know it does.
30:19
Speaker 12: Because she's disparaging her own child from the stand. She's
30:24
Speaker 12: blaming him and saying that he had this horrible bedroom.
30:27
Speaker 12: And sometimes teenagers do and sometimes if it's just a
30:30
Speaker 12: bit of a mild mess, you walk by and you
30:32
Speaker 12: shut the door. But this was a serious, serious mess.
30:35
Speaker 12: Would you ever degrade or devalue your own child in
30:40
Speaker 12: front of a jewelry and a.
30:42
Speaker 3: Courtroom, in front of anyone.
30:44
Speaker 12: No, that's what we're hearing. No, that's what's wrong. That's
30:47
Speaker 12: what you're about.
30:47
Speaker 2: I'm saying neglect instead of saying, son, I will help.
30:52
Speaker 3: You, let's go in your room.
30:54
Speaker 2: It's disgusting doing that, doing it yourself and complaining bitterly,
30:59
Speaker 2: but instead just shutting the door and going, hey, go
31:01
Speaker 2: stay in the guest bedroom. There's something neglectful and wrong
31:05
Speaker 2: with that.
31:05
Speaker 12: Do you know how many parents in my office complain
31:09
Speaker 12: that their children throw all their clothes on the floor,
31:11
Speaker 12: they try on every outfit in the closet before they
31:14
Speaker 12: go to school. These are normal things, and what happens
31:18
Speaker 12: is the parent takes it to therapy because they love
31:20
Speaker 12: their child. They're concerned, and they want to know the
31:24
Speaker 12: best approach for dealing with it.
31:26
Speaker 2: How about pick up your closet. I'm taking your cell phone,
31:29
Speaker 2: just a suggestion, Okay.
31:31
Speaker 12: The fact that this room was so messy is one
31:33
Speaker 12: of the signs of his fragmentation, that he was falling
31:36
Speaker 12: apart and becoming delusional, and she should have explored.
31:39
Speaker 1: That time stories with Nancy Grace.
31:56
Speaker 2: One of the jurors stated that a big factor in
31:59
Speaker 2: their guilty verdict was that the mother. Ethan Crumley's mother,
32:05
Speaker 2: Jennifer Crumley, was the last adult to touch.
32:09
Speaker 3: The gun that they know of. But she didn't just
32:12
Speaker 3: touch the gun, she gave him the gun listen.
32:17
Speaker 7: Oakland County Assistant Prosecutor Matt Keist points out that even
32:21
Speaker 7: though Jennifer Crumbley knew her son, Ethan Crumbley had a
32:24
Speaker 7: deteriorating mental health crisis, growing social isolation, and that even
32:29
Speaker 7: though at fifteen, Ethan Crumbley could not buy a handgun
32:32
Speaker 7: by himself. His parents still gifted him the gun, the
32:35
Speaker 7: gun he used in the school shooting.
32:37
Speaker 2: Okay, I don't know a lot, but when one of
32:40
Speaker 2: my children or I can tell if they're sad, or
32:43
Speaker 2: they're angry, or they are upset, I don't want them
32:46
Speaker 2: to go off and be alone because, for instance, I'm
32:49
Speaker 2: afraid my son's frustration level will get worse, or my
32:53
Speaker 2: daughter is.
32:54
Speaker 3: She going to sit alone in her bathroom and cry?
32:56
Speaker 3: I don't want that to happen. The last thing we
33:00
Speaker 3: want to give an upset teen is a gun.
33:04
Speaker 2: I mean, can I get an amen on that from
33:08
Speaker 2: anybody on this panel?
33:09
Speaker 3: A gun?
33:10
Speaker 16: I'll give you an amen on that, And I'll give
33:12
Speaker 16: you one more thing. Most states, and I believe the
33:14
Speaker 16: state of Michigan, would have required someone in the household
33:19
Speaker 16: to have gone for gun safety training courses before they
33:23
Speaker 16: could even purchase a weapon. How is it that this mother,
33:27
Speaker 16: knowing or not knowing for that matter, the mental state
33:31
Speaker 16: of her child, just handing over a gun. Did she
33:34
Speaker 16: have to go for that training?
33:36
Speaker 2: You're hearing Alisa Mula joining us child at school safety
33:41
Speaker 2: security expert Kathleen Murphy giving distracting a gun really.
33:46
Speaker 13: Nancy, I have a child who's seventeen, a boy, more introverted,
33:51
Speaker 13: and he plays airsoft. Even with his airsoft utensils, guns,
33:57
Speaker 13: whatever you want to call them, they're not real gun.
34:00
Speaker 13: I monitor what's going on.
34:02
Speaker 17: I know where they are, I know how he's doing,
34:04
Speaker 17: I know what his mental state is. This is gross negligence.
34:09
Speaker 17: It's not just negligence, it's gross extreme negligence.
34:15
Speaker 13: This poor kid did not have a chance.
34:18
Speaker 3: Nor did the murder victims. Let me just point that out.
34:22
Speaker 2: They're just walking from class to class in school and
34:26
Speaker 2: get gunned down by Ethan Crumley. But of course now
34:30
Speaker 2: the parents are doing this blaming each other. To take
34:33
Speaker 2: a Listen to Jennifer Crumley on the stand.
34:36
Speaker 14: I'm this receive this gun was purchased by James Crumley crest.
34:42
Speaker 3: Yes, the receipt.
34:43
Speaker 14: Does not have Jennifer Crumley's scene. No, and when this
34:49
Speaker 14: gun was purchased, James Crumley was accompanied by a teenage
34:54
Speaker 14: boy and no one else crept crept.
34:58
Speaker 10: Jennifer Crumbley's a turn Shennon Smith argues that Jennifer knows
35:02
Speaker 10: nothing about guns and puts the blame on Ethan's father,
35:06
Speaker 10: James Crumbly. Smith points out that Jennifer Crumbly did take
35:10
Speaker 10: her son to a shooting range, but she didn't know
35:12
Speaker 10: what she was doing, and she wasn't the one to
35:15
Speaker 10: buy the handgun. It was James Crumbly that bought the gun.
35:18
Speaker 10: During his guilty plea, Ethan Crumbley said that he gave
35:22
Speaker 10: his father the money to buy the handgun that he
35:25
Speaker 10: later used to kill four and wound seven at Oxford
35:28
Speaker 10: High School.
35:28
Speaker 2: Okay, Cassidy, John Cox's joining me. He's been on the
35:31
Speaker 2: trial from the very beginning in that jurisdiction. She's a
35:35
Speaker 2: click on Detroit dot Com, Cassidy.
35:37
Speaker 3: It sounds like.
35:38
Speaker 2: The mom and the defense attorney are trying to do
35:40
Speaker 2: their best to pend it on the dad for going
35:42
Speaker 2: and buying the gun.
35:43
Speaker 3: And yes, he is at fault. He is. It's on video.
35:47
Speaker 2: But the only way they could get away with that
35:48
Speaker 2: is to claim the mom had no idea her son
35:51
Speaker 2: had a gun, and she clearly did know he had
35:53
Speaker 2: a gun.
35:54
Speaker 11: Yeah, Nancy, So what they're doing here the defense of
35:57
Speaker 11: they are definitely pointing fingers at each other. And these
36:00
Speaker 11: two different trials, the mother said one she took the
36:03
Speaker 11: stand at her trial that she had absolutely no hand
36:07
Speaker 11: in the gun. It was up to her husband to
36:11
Speaker 11: store them, to hide them, to lock them. She didn't
36:13
Speaker 11: feel comfortable, she just left that all to her husband,
36:16
Speaker 11: So she essentially put that all on him. And then
36:19
Speaker 11: she said a few days before the shooting, she and
36:22
Speaker 11: her son went to the gun range with that new gun,
36:25
Speaker 11: that nine milimeter they had just purchased, and when they
36:28
Speaker 11: returned home, she left the gun in the trunk of
36:30
Speaker 11: her car, and then her husband was going to come
36:33
Speaker 11: and take it out and put it in the home
36:35
Speaker 11: when he got home from work. So that's what she
36:37
Speaker 11: said happened. She said she didn't see her husband remove
36:39
Speaker 11: the gun from the car and put it in the
36:41
Speaker 11: house and hide it like he said he would, but
36:43
Speaker 11: he said that he did. And so that was one
36:45
Speaker 11: of the things that the jury really focused on. They said,
36:47
Speaker 11: was what really hammered this conviction home for them was
36:50
Speaker 11: that Jennifer Crumbley was the last known person to have
36:53
Speaker 11: her hands on that gun.
36:54
Speaker 2: I want you to hear what we learned about the
36:58
Speaker 2: day Ethan Cromley was called to the Principal's office in
37:02
Speaker 2: fifty three.
37:03
Speaker 18: Hours before the shooting occurred. Jennifer and James Crumbley were
37:06
Speaker 18: called to the school because of the mass shooting doodle
37:08
Speaker 18: Ethan had drawn. Also, his online searches for AMMO while
37:12
Speaker 18: in school had frightened a teacher. The counselor said Jennifer
37:16
Speaker 18: or James Crumbley could take Ethan home that morning, but
37:18
Speaker 18: they both claim they were too busy at work.
37:21
Speaker 3: And could not take him home that day.
37:22
Speaker 18: James Crumbley was too busy with his door dash job,
37:26
Speaker 18: and Jennifer was so busy that she notified Brian she
37:28
Speaker 18: could meet up with him.
37:30
Speaker 3: Wait a minute, is Brian the lover Cassidy? Yes he is.
37:34
Speaker 2: Nancy, So, after meeting with the principal about the disturbing
37:40
Speaker 2: notes and drawings about shootings, she doesn't take the sun home,
37:47
Speaker 2: but she writes her lover to say, yeah, we'll meet
37:51
Speaker 2: up later.
37:51
Speaker 3: Yeah.
37:52
Speaker 11: As far as we know, she shared a lot of
37:53
Speaker 11: intimate text messages with Brian, but she did return to
37:57
Speaker 11: work that day after the meeting.
37:58
Speaker 14: Listen, did you do you feel like you were taking
38:02
Speaker 14: the position of I am leaving him at school whether
38:04
Speaker 14: he can be here or not.
38:05
Speaker 13: No?
38:05
Speaker 18: Absolutely not.
38:07
Speaker 14: Okay, were you.
38:09
Speaker 2: Surprised or were you nut surprised?
38:11
Speaker 14: Did you have any feelings about whether or not he
38:13
Speaker 14: could stay at school?
38:17
Speaker 6: I didn't really.
38:18
Speaker 15: I I thought.
38:19
Speaker 9: The advice that they were giving us was the a
38:22
Speaker 9: good advice. We talk of him being sad, and then
38:25
Speaker 9: he said being around here is usually helps. If we
38:28
Speaker 9: upgraded that. My son gets very stressed out. He knows
38:31
Speaker 9: virtual school, so we agree that might stress him out
38:34
Speaker 9: more to do his school remotely.
38:37
Speaker 2: The rest of the day.
38:40
Speaker 9: But there is never a time where I would refuse
38:43
Speaker 9: to take up home. I could easily if you wanted
38:46
Speaker 9: to go, take up with me paying no issues with that.
38:48
Speaker 2: Not only that after their son is arrested, the parents
38:53
Speaker 2: drain the bank account and go on the run.
38:56
Speaker 3: Listen, Okan.
39:00
Speaker 7: Has a two parent that are on a run right now.
39:03
Speaker 12: And had you know.
39:04
Speaker 18: Oakle and Kelly that called your penything.
39:06
Speaker 8: And I just wanted to go park my car and
39:08
Speaker 8: twitch it around at my offer and at my oper
39:11
Speaker 8: and they were like yeah, and it looked like their car.
39:13
Speaker 12: And I walked around and checked, did like complete edit
39:18
Speaker 12: their car?
39:19
Speaker 5: And the woman here in connect.
39:21
Speaker 12: To the car aware getting next to her car in
39:26
Speaker 12: the parking lot.
39:26
Speaker 2: Citizens were asked to be on the lookout for Ethan
39:29
Speaker 2: Crumley's parents, and sure enough that caller calls Naimo one
39:34
Speaker 2: to stay.
39:35
Speaker 3: I see her. She's right there with her Kia and.
39:39
Speaker 2: Take a listen to the mom trying to explain this
39:42
Speaker 2: under cross examination.
39:44
Speaker 15: You don't deny that you had six thousand dollars in
39:46
Speaker 15: cash in your first the night you were arrested. You
39:49
Speaker 15: don't deny that your purse with the cash in force
39:52
Speaker 15: cell phones were in the Classic toe.
39:55
Speaker 8: You don't deny that that.
39:55
Speaker 15: Classic toe is containing the different Classic toe O. You
39:58
Speaker 15: don't deny that you're packed with clothing items was found
40:01
Speaker 15: in a different Classic Toad in a different area of
40:03
Speaker 15: the studio.
40:04
Speaker 2: Craft. Yeah, Mommy goes on the run after draining all
40:07
Speaker 2: the money out of the account.
40:09
Speaker 3: Dad on the run too.
40:10
Speaker 2: The jury heard that evidence of flight is allowed in
40:14
Speaker 2: front of the jury to show frame of mind, course
40:17
Speaker 2: of conduct, evidence of guilt. Jennifer Crumley guilty, Two down,
40:25
Speaker 2: one to go, Goodbye friend,