Latest / Substack Writers Salon / What Running 1,000+ Author Interviews Teaches You About Podcasting

Transcript

What Running 1,000+ Author Interviews Teaches You About Podcasting · Substack Writers Salon

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: and I have with me today a legend in the literary scene.
• 0:07
  Actually,
• 0:08
  he's a legend in the podcast scene when it comes to authors and
• 0:13
  books and publishing.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_00: His name is Brad Listie.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_00: He's a novelist,
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_00: a podcast host,
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  SPEAKER_00: and one of the most recognizable voices in the literary podcast world.
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  SPEAKER_00: He's the author of Be Brief and Tell Them Everything,
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_00: and the LA Times best-selling novel, Attention, Deficient Disorder.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_00: He's also the creator and host of the long-running podcast,
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_00: Other People with Brad Listie,
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  SPEAKER_00: where he interviewed hundreds of leading writers in deep,
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_00: honest,
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  SPEAKER_00: and often unpredictable conversation.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_00: He's also the founder of Deep Dive,
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_00: a platform offering in-depth writing courses,
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  SPEAKER_00: and he is known for his candid,
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_00: thoughtful approach to the creative process.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 0:56
  brad um hi and i see people already joining i have like uh five
• 1:02
  people here hi
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  everyone so excited to have brad we're gonna talk about
• 1:05
  podcasts for authors and
• 1:07
  how to create a podcast all right brad as i told you before we
• 1:11
  started i'm really
• 1:12
  jealous and jealousy is a negative energy i and i have to work
• 1:16
  on myself i know but
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  SPEAKER_00: i am just
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  Because I also run a podcast,
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  and I've been running it for four years now.
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  SPEAKER_00: And I was just looking at the people that you interviewed,
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  SPEAKER_00: and you actually interviewed one of the best,
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  SPEAKER_00: probably,
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  SPEAKER_00: authors in the world,
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  SPEAKER_00: the top-selling authors,
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  SPEAKER_00: including George Sanders,
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  SPEAKER_00: Yuen Lee,
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  SPEAKER_00: Liz Moore,
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_00: and others.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_00: How did you do that?
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_00: What is your secret?
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_00: How did you manage to get all of these people come on your podcast?
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_00: What's your secret sauce?
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_01: I started 15 years ago.
• 1:53
  There weren't a ton of literary interview shows,
• 1:56
  like not nearly as many as there are now.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_01: So I had that going for me.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_01: And then I reached out directly.
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  I think I emailed George Saunders at Syracuse,
• 2:06
  if I'm remembering correctly.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_01: And he's really unpretentious.
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  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, maybe it's gotten harder to book him now that he's
• 2:14
  become like sort of an icon at this point but back then he just
• 2:17
  emailed me back i
• 2:18
  think he was my hundredth guest and uh he's pretty accessible
• 2:23
  you know he's pretty
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  easygoing guy and then i want to say i knew like you know like
• 2:27
  somebody like
• 2:28
  roxanne gay i kind of knew from internet lit scene and i talked
• 2:33
  to her for her
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  first book so then it becomes easier to book people
• 2:37
  subsequently and then i think
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_01: the longer you're around
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_01: the more your show sort of registers with people,
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_01: they have to see it about 50 times on social media before they,
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  SPEAKER_01: I think,
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  SPEAKER_01: maybe clock it as a thing.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_01: And maybe that's what my show has become.
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  SPEAKER_01: It's just kind of hung around long enough that people,
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  SPEAKER_01: or at least some people,
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  SPEAKER_01: think of it as like semi-legitimate.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: So when you contact these authors,
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  SPEAKER_00: do you contact them on social media or do you go to their agents?
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_00: What do you do and how do you find their agents?
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_01: Oh,
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  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_01: at this,
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_01: my show,
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_01: I get about,
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_01: I would say between 50 and 75 requests a day from publicists usually.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 3:23
  Occasionally authors will reach out to me directly,
• 3:26
  but I was just complaining.
• 3:27
  By the way,
• 3:27
  this is my second Substack Live in less than a week.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_01: I did my first one last week, and now I'm doing one this week.
• 3:33
  Am I going to just do a Substack Live every week with somebody?
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  SPEAKER_01: Is this what's going to happen to me?
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
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  SPEAKER_00: I actually saw you last week on Substack, and that's why I invited you.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I don't know.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_01: This is a new thing for me.
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  SPEAKER_00: You're doing great.
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  I was complaining last week on Substack Live that the booking
• 3:53
  process for my show
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  SPEAKER_01: has become overwhelming and unwieldy,
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  SPEAKER_01: and I'm very disorganized with it.
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  SPEAKER_01: It's impossible to accommodate,
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  SPEAKER_01: obviously,
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  SPEAKER_01: all of the requests that I get,
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  but I'm also rethinking or like thinking that I should be
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  rethinking the manner in
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  SPEAKER_01: which I book just because there's a lot of demand.
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  SPEAKER_01: So what was your question?
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_01: Like, how do I do it?
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: Do you reach out to them?
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  SPEAKER_00: No.
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  SPEAKER_00: What should I mean?
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  SPEAKER_00: Like, let's say big names like George Sanders or...
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  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
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  SPEAKER_00: Let's say you want to have Stephen King on your show.
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  SPEAKER_00: Have you ever had Stephen King on your show?
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  SPEAKER_01: I tried, but he was like, no.
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  I mean,
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  Stephen King's sort of like,
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  I'll do NPR and I'll do the New York Times.
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  SPEAKER_01: I think that's maybe where he's at.
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  SPEAKER_01: Maybe, you know, maybe he does podcasts.
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  I don't think I've seen him on any,
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  unless it's like a big institutional media concern.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I mean, he doesn't have to.
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  SPEAKER_01: Stephen King doesn't have to do anything.
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  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_01: Somebody like...
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  SPEAKER_00: Somebody like Frieda McFadden, who recently revealed her true identity.
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  SPEAKER_00: And how would you reach her?
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_01: Probably through her publicist.
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  SPEAKER_01: But at this point, you know, the publicists come to me.
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  SPEAKER_01: Like, I rarely reach out to anybody anymore unless somebody contacts me.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_01: Occasionally.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_01: And then maybe I'll,
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_01: if I have their contact info,
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  I'll either email them or text them or I'll reach out to a
• 5:20
  publicist and pitch it.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_01: very occasionally, and then see what they say.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_00: And how many episodes do you have so far in 15 years?
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  SPEAKER_01: I mean, total episodes, I think, is upwards of 1,300.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_01: But author interviews, I think I'm at 1,030.
• 5:41
  And I've been listening to your show,
• 5:43
  and you said you've been consistent for 15 years.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_00: Every week, you post a show every Thursday for 15 years, nonstop.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_01: Well, no, the schedule has shifted and changed over the years.
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  SPEAKER_01: But in addition to having decent timing and starting a long time ago,
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_01: which is,
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  SPEAKER_01: I think,
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  SPEAKER_01: to my benefit,
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  SPEAKER_01: just because my show has had time to accrue an audience.
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  And I got started at a time when the podcasting space was not
• 6:14
  completely oversaturated.
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  SPEAKER_01: So I had that going for me.
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  SPEAKER_01: And then the other thing is that I've been very consistent for 15 years.
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  SPEAKER_01: And
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  SPEAKER_01: I always call it feeding the stray cats.
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  Like if you don't feed the stray cats,
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  the stray cats are going to go to somebody else's house.
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  SPEAKER_01: So I have,
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  I have tried to sort of be there week after week and I don't
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  think I've missed
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  SPEAKER_01: hard,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: maybe a few weeks in 15 years,
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  SPEAKER_01: but hardly any.
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  SPEAKER_01: So I think that's been,
• 6:44
  beneficial and right now the way that the schedule goes is that
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  a new author
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  interview airs on tuesdays every tuesday is a new author
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  interview and then on
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  thursdays i've been doing a pop culture series with my friend
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  mira gonzalez and
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  that's just sort of a goof where mira is much younger than i am
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  and so the whole
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  conceit of the show is that she's sort of trying to guide me
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  and teach me about pop
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  SPEAKER_01: culture and
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  We just sort of,
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  you know,
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  try to have a laugh,
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  which I need in this era.
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  And then on Sundays,
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  I have been playing,
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  this year I've been playing an archival episode.
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  SPEAKER_01: Once I crossed a thousand author interviews,
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  SPEAKER_01: I was like,
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  SPEAKER_01: yeah,
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  SPEAKER_01: I should probably like re-air some golden oldies like once a week,
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  because I feel like a lot of listeners who might be coming to
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  the show wouldn't
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  SPEAKER_01: even know that this stuff exists.
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  SPEAKER_01: You know, unless you sit there scrolling, like, you know, deep into...
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  SPEAKER_01: the archive.
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  SPEAKER_01: So there's three episodes a week,
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  SPEAKER_01: one author interview,
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  SPEAKER_01: the pop culture show on Thursday,
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  SPEAKER_01: and then there's a flashback episode on Sundays.
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  SPEAKER_00: Do you do this full time?
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  SPEAKER_01: No, I mean, I'm doing lots of different things.
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  So it's like trying to fit this in around all the other stuff
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  I'm trying to do.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I wish I could do it full time.
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  SPEAKER_01: It would be, that would be my dream, would be to make
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  a fortune in podcasting but it's an it's a one percent ninety
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  nine percent economy
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  i'm not in the one percent i don't think any literary show is
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  or could be in the
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  one percent unless like i don't know unless somebody's killing
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  it in a way that i'm
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  SPEAKER_00: not aware of well i can think of people like um
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  SPEAKER_00: What's her name?
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  SPEAKER_00: Zibi Owens.
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  SPEAKER_00: She kind of created a whole empire from her podcast.
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  SPEAKER_00: Moms don't have time to read.
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  SPEAKER_00: Joanna Penn, the creative Penn.
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  uh the i think these are some people who are who kind of
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  kidding it in the literary
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  podcast team do you agree with me i just want to say i maybe
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  maybe i don't know i
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  truly don't know i don't listen to any literary podcasts like i
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  think i would
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  probably like throw myself off a bridge if uh i tried to i'm
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  just so inundated with
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  literary podcasting on my own that i when i go to listen to
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  something the last
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  SPEAKER_01: thing i want to listen to is a literary podcast i want to listen to like
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  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
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  SPEAKER_01: I listen to like sports podcasts and Buddhism podcasts.
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  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
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  But I think that sometimes appearances of empire can be
• 9:26
  deceiving is what I will say.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I think, I want to say, I don't know.
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  SPEAKER_01: That's all I'm going to say.
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  SPEAKER_01: I could be wrong.
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  SPEAKER_01: Maybe there is an empire.
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  SPEAKER_01: I hope there is in the literary space.
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  And I hope that it's reaching a ton of people and bringing
• 9:39
  people to books.
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  SPEAKER_01: But I think that when it comes to generating
• 9:46
  like significant revenue from a podcast you need to be getting
• 9:52
  tens of thousands of
• 9:53
  downloads per episode on a consistent basis like many tens you
• 9:59
  know to be in the
• 9:59
  echelon where the money is really flowing but that's just my
• 10:03
  experience of it and
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  maybe people have a different experience of it i'm also i think
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  i'm decent at
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  SPEAKER_01: hosting a show
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  And I love hosting a show and I love having conversations and
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  I've gotten decent at
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  SPEAKER_01: editing and mixing a show.
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  SPEAKER_01: Like the bare bones basics of it.
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  But in terms of like hammering away at the marketing part of it
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  and going around
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  and like pounding the table for my show on the internet and
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  being on social media
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  SPEAKER_01: relentlessly,
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  SPEAKER_01: that part of it is maybe where I struggle.
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  SPEAKER_01: I'm just, that part of it I don't like.
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  SPEAKER_00: Hmm.
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  so are you a one-man show you don't have anyone to help you
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  with this no i mean the
• 10:45
  thing is is that like there have been people who have offered
• 10:47
  to intern for me but
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  like it never works out like you got to be able to pay people i
• 10:52
  can't pay somebody
• 10:53
  and i feel weird asking somebody to do this stuff for free um
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  it's grunt work i've
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_01: always done all the grunt work for my show from the beginning
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_01: You know,
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  SPEAKER_01: if I had the budget,
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  I'd happily hire somebody to do like the editing and producing
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  and booking would be
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_01: ideal,
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_01: but it's just not happening.
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  SPEAKER_00: What if it's a catch 22 in terms of maybe if you hire someone,
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  you you can make more money from your podcast and then you can
• 11:20
  hire more people and
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  SPEAKER_00: then you can grow.
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  I mean,
• 11:23
  sometimes you just have to take a leap of faith and just do it
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  and
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_01: Or you implode and you run out of money.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it can go either way.
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  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
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  SPEAKER_01: I just, I think like it's a lot.
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  SPEAKER_01: It's a lot to ask somebody to do as like an unpaid intern.
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  SPEAKER_01: And in my experience is that
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_01: unless you get somebody who's really earnest and dedicated and maybe like
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  SPEAKER_01: independently financed by like,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: the largesse of their parents or something,
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_01: they can afford to do an unpaid internship.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe you get one of those unicorns,
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_01: but usually people do it for like,
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_01: a week and they're like,
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_01: fuck this.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_01: Like I'm not getting paid.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't blame them.
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  SPEAKER_01: I wouldn't, you know, it's like, there's no point.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_01: I would, I feel bad having an unpaid intern.
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  SPEAKER_01: So I don't have one.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_01: And, uh,
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  SPEAKER_00: What about people from like Fiverr?
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  So for example,
• 12:12
  for me,
• 12:12
  for my other podcast,
• 12:14
  I outsource the editing part.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_00: I don't do editing.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I know how to do it, but it takes one hour of my time.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_01: I want that work.
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  SPEAKER_00: So I outsource it, but I do the social media.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm planning when...
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_00: It looks like I'm the optimist here.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_00: When I scale,
• 12:33
  I'm going to hire at least one person to do the social media
• 12:36
  because that hour that
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_00: I can pay that person,
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_00: I can charge triple the time doing consulting work or another work.
• 12:44
  So from a financial sense,
• 12:46
  for me,
• 12:46
  at least it makes more sense to outsource it.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, I've used like, what is it called?
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_01: Upwork.
• 12:54
  I've hired people that way to help me like run my various
• 12:59
  operations and it can sometimes work.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 13:02
  the editing part is interesting because I have fantasies of
• 13:05
  somebody like having a
• 13:06
  really good producer who does the edit and the back end and
• 13:11
  just like posts and
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_01: stages episodes and does all of that.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_01: But the problem is that
• 13:16
  I like to have control of the content and I like to have a
• 13:19
  creative control of the
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_01: edit to fix things that I think need to be fixed.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_01: I would have to have a lot of trust.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_01: I think I have trust issues is what I'm trying to tell you.
• 13:29
  I just would have trouble like outsourcing that because what
• 13:33
  would happen is that I
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_01: would outsource it and like theoretically save the time.
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  But then I would probably find myself listening to every
• 13:39
  episode to make sure that
• 13:41
  And that gets weird when you start listening to your own
• 13:43
  podcast regularly.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_01: Though I sometimes do, you know, just as like a quality control thing.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_01: But I think I would be extra invested on that level.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_01: So it would sort of defeat the purpose.
• 13:53
  I would lose the hour doing QC that I theoretically gained by
• 13:57
  outsourcing the edit.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_01: You see what I'm saying?
• 13:59
  Yeah,
• 14:00
  I think it's a mindset,
• 14:01
  which is like the MVP mindset,
• 14:04
  which is a minimum viable product.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_00: You just have to trust the process and realize that
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_00: Perfection is the enemy of the good.
• 14:12
  So sometimes you just have to ship it to MVP it like Silicon
• 14:16
  Valley products
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_00: without worrying about it.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_00: And this is how you scale.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_00: This is how you become part of that.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_01: That's what they say.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_01: That's what all the self-optimizer bros tell you.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_01: Get that MVP.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_01: You got to get that minimum viable product.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_01: You have to.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_01: It's either hell yes or it's no.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, trust me, I've absorbed all that stuff.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like, okay, I got to pump the brakes.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_01: I'm going to drive myself nuts.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_01: I think that you have to do it in a way that works for you.
• 14:47
  And that,
• 14:47
  you know,
• 14:48
  if you're going to try to be consistent in creating this kind
• 14:50
  of content.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_01: So far, I've been able to sort of manage it on my own.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_01: But it's a lie.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_01: What is that?
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_01: What kind of dog you got?
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_00: She's annoying.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_00: She's half German Shepherds and then half like... She's very protective.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_00: Fiona.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_00: And she loves to come on my podcast somehow.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_01: My dog is back there in the corner.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_01: You can't really see her.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_01: She's not fierce, nor is she protective.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_00: So she's the background of all my podcasts.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_00: So the listeners are okay with her so far.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_00: We'll see.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_00: The numbers say something differently.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_00: But anyways.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_00: So why are you doing this?
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I realize that you say, I'm not making money.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_00: I'm spending a lot of time.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_01: I am making money.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_01: I am making money, but I'm not making a lot of money.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_01: I wouldn't be doing this if it was a complete wash,
• 15:52
  but I'm just trying to tell you that like for people to make a
• 15:55
  podcast lucrative in
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_01: the market as presently constituted,
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_01: you have to be in like the 1% or even like the top half of 1%,
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_01: as I understand it.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_01: And if you're not there,
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_01: maybe you make some money,
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_01: but it's not going to be lucrative until you enter the 1%,
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_01: which is I think the same thing you could say for the economy writ large,
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_01: as I understand it,
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_01: which is poorly.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_00: So why did you start the podcast in the first place?
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_00: What was your mindset 15 years ago when you started?
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_01: It was an experiment.
• 16:27
  I think I was encouraged to do it when I was editing my
• 16:30
  literary magazine,
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_01: my online literary magazine,
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_01: The Nervous Breakdown.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_01: We had been doing some podcast content,
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_01: which was like people reading excerpts from their books,
• 16:41
  but then they were produced and they had kind of music and
• 16:44
  maybe some of them even
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_01: had sound effects.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_01: And then it was like, you know,
• 16:47
  there should be a literary interview series that we do and put
• 16:50
  it up on the site
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_01: was,
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_01: I think,
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_01: the idea,
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_01: if I'm remembering correctly.
• 16:55
  And so I started The Other People Show with the idea that it
• 16:59
  would be this short-term thing.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_01: And I would just talk to a few authors and have these conversations.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_01: And I think I wanted to make a show that was more informal,
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_01: at least at the outset,
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_01: that was more informal than most literary content.
• 17:15
  where you know literary people i feel like can take themselves
• 17:18
  pretty seriously
• 17:18
  sometimes and the content that was created around literary
• 17:22
  people and literary
• 17:23
  content back in the day could be pretty dry and kind of boring
• 17:27
  for me anyway and so
• 17:28
  i was like i want to just talk to these authors as people
• 17:32
  because i know so many
• 17:34
  authors from my work as an editor and just being in book world
• 17:37
  for a long time i
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_01: know uh like how interesting and funny and uh
• 17:44
  inappropriate these people can be in conversation like in
• 17:47
  private conversation and
• 17:48
  so i wanted to try to create a space for that sort of maybe
• 17:53
  informality and that
• 17:55
  sort of exchange and i think that was where it began and then i
• 18:00
  found that i liked
• 18:00
  it and almost immediately there was an audience and i was
• 18:03
  hearing from people who
• 18:04
  were saying oh this is great i love this where has this been
• 18:07
  you know that sort of
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_01: thing and
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_01: listen, you don't have to encourage me all that much.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, oh, something I'm doing, people like it.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I think that really affected me.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_01: I think I was like,
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_01: okay,
• 18:18
  I'm delivering something that is filling a need and I enjoy it
• 18:22
  and it's fun.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_01: And so it just sort of grew from there.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_01: And now it's 15 years later.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_00: So 15 years is a long time.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_00: How long did you plan to keep on doing this?
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_01: It feels like week to week to me.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_01: It's been week to week for like seven years.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_01: But it's a hard thing.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_01: I will say this.
• 18:44
  It's a hard thing to quit because I get to talk to such
• 18:48
  fascinating people,
• 18:50
  talented people.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_01: And I love these conversations.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_01: They like enrich my life and my mind first.
• 18:59
  And then I share it with the audience and hopefully it does
• 19:01
  something similar for them.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_01: So
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_01: It's just such a cool thing to have in my life and I enjoy it so much.
• 19:07
  And I think I really like to build this library,
• 19:10
  like almost in like a obsessive way.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_01: You know,
• 19:15
  I like the idea of these conversations sort of living online
• 19:19
  somewhere or living in
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_01: the podcast space and finding people here and there,
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_01: you know.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_01: So I don't know.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know how long it'll go.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_01: It's been 15 years.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe it'll be 20, maybe it'll be 30, maybe it'll be, it ends next week.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_01: I just don't know.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so how did that impact your brand and career as an author?
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_00: Did it have any impact on, did it sell more books?
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_00: Did it get you more opportunities?
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_00: How, like, what was the ROI on all that investment of time and whatnot?
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_01: The ROI, listen to these terms, the ROI.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_00: I listen to a lot of raw material, so that's why.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_01: Is that what it is?
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think of it in those terms.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, not much.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_01: Nothing's going to move books.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_01: Nobody knows what moves books.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's word of mouth.
• 20:15
  It's some mystical zeitgeisty thing where your book gets
• 20:20
  published and meets the
• 20:22
  moment that it is published in with a kind of cosmic precision
• 20:27
  that obviously has
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_01: to be well done.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_01: Otherwise, it's a mystery.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_01: If anybody knew how to sell books, they'd be a billionaire.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_01: Everyone's trying to figure out the code and you can't really game it.
• 20:42
  You just have to make your work the best you can and do the
• 20:46
  best you can to get the
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_01: word out and then just let the cards fall.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_01: So in terms of how my podcast has impacted book sales,
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_01: like maybe a little bit,
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_01: but nothing crazy.
• 20:57
  People might love my podcast and hate my books or like my books
• 21:01
  and hate my podcast.
• 21:02
  You know,
• 21:03
  I don't think they're necessarily reciprocal in that way,
• 21:06
  though maybe they are.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_01: You know,
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_01: it's kind of hard to imagine that if somebody liked my book,
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_01: they would hate my show because my book is so much me.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_01: But maybe people,
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_01: it's like,
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_01: I think some people might be like,
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_01: yeah,
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_01: I can tolerate him in a book,
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_01: but the podcast is maybe too much of him or something.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_01: And then I think,
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_01: too,
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_01: if people out there or anything like me,
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_01: you sort of listen to a show and you get into it for a while.
• 21:31
  And then you're sort of like,
• 21:32
  ah,
• 21:33
  you know,
• 21:33
  I'm getting kind of tired of that guy.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_01: And then you stop listening for a while.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_01: And then eventually you're like, hey, I wonder what that guy's doing.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_01: I remember him.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_01: And then you listen and you're like, oh, I kind of liked him.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_01: And you kind of remember how you liked him.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_01: And you come back for a while and then you get tired of him again.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_01: I think people do that with most shows, probably mine.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_01: And so...
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_01: That's kind of a jumbled answer,
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_01: but I don't think it has some huge like correlative impact on book sales.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know what it's done for my brand.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_01: Probably nothing terrible.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe there's like some sort of dilution.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_01: I have thought of that where like,
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 22:08
  you're a podcaster and so you're therefore not as much of an
• 22:11
  author because you're
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_01: the interviewer guy.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_01: But I don't know.
• 22:16
  Like,
• 22:16
  listen,
• 22:17
  everybody these days has a podcast or a Substack Live.
• 22:20
  And everybody,
• 22:21
  like I bemoan constantly,
• 22:23
  is turning themselves into a TV show suddenly.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_01: Like, that's something I'm resisting.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_01: There's some stubborn part of me that's like, no, fuck this.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not doing this.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_01: But, you know, I don't think it's that big of a deal anymore.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_01: I certainly don't care.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_01: I don't sit around like wringing my hands going like,
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_01: oh,
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_01: is the podcast weakening my brand as an author?
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_01: Like,
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_01: The less I think of myself as a brand, the happier I am.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_01: That's generally the way things go for me.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe to my detriment in some sort of like ROI way.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_01: But like, I don't know if I can live like that.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just not wired for it.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_01: It makes me crazy.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_01: I don't like it.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_00: So do you think every author should have a podcast?
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_01: No.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_01: No, only do it if you want to.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you know, if you like it, do it.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_01: If you don't like it, don't do it.
• 23:20
  And certainly don't guest on a podcast if you're not
• 23:23
  comfortable being a guest on a podcast.
• 23:26
  This does sometimes happen to me where there's like a person
• 23:29
  who agrees to be on a
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_01: podcast,
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_01: but then doesn't really want to be interviewed.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_01: Doesn't really feel comfortable talking about themselves or being candid.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_01: And that's fine.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_01: You don't have to be that person, but don't go on a show.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_01: It's not going to help you that much.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I mean, let's go back to the gurus.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_00: The marketing gurus tell you now,
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_00: if you want to market your book,
• 23:51
  going on a podcast tour is like one of the top things that you
• 23:55
  have to do.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_00: That, yeah, it's like, it's a no-brainer.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_00: You have to guest on podcasts to sell your books.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_00: Do you agree with that?
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_01: I think, I mean, listen, I think in the aggregate, it can be helpful.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_01: It certainly doesn't hurt.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_01: But again, I think like,
• 24:12
  You know,
• 24:12
  back in the day,
• 24:13
  I used to do ad sales for like the internet back when banner
• 24:17
  ads.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_01: Remember when banner ads were the thing?
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe you're too young for that.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_00: No, no, no.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_00: I'm probably older than you.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_00: I just use dye.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_00: I just dye my hair.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_00: That's the difference.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I don't know.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_01: Every time I look at my, this is maybe why I don't do TV or video.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_00: The only difference is I dye my hair.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_00: That's all.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_01: I just look sleepy.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_01: I look tired.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah,
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_01: I think like in the aggregate,
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_01: like back when,
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_01: when I used to do banner ad sales,
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_01: it was like,
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 24:44
  you're trying to get click through and conversion or you could
• 24:47
  expect to get click
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_01: through and conversion like 1% of the time.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_01: And that was considered to be a successful campaign.
• 24:54
  So that would mean like if you got and you sold these things
• 24:57
  and what was it called?
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_01: CTM.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_01: It was like cost per thousand impressions or something.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_01: And if you got 1% of a thousand, what is that?
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_01: That's like 10%.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_01: Or maybe not.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe it's even less than that.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_00: 1% of 1,000 is 10, yeah.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_01: But it might even be a fraction of 1%,
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_01: in terms of how these things actually lead to conversion.
• 25:18
  So you go on a podcast and you get 50,000 downloads and you
• 25:22
  think to yourself,
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_01: wow,
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_01: this is great.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_01: I'm going to sell a bunch of books.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_01: No, you're not.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_01: You're not.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_01: Unless you are an incendiary guest.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_01: Provocative and brilliant and like hilarious or whatever it is.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_01: But
• 25:36
  I tend to think of it in terms of a really small conversion
• 25:42
  percentage per episode,
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_01: even though lots of people listen and are interested to hear from you,
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_01: they're not going to necessarily buy your book.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_01: Listen,
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_01: you can have a reading at a bookstore,
• 25:53
  and there are people who will show up to your reading who won't
• 25:56
  buy your book at
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_01: the reading,
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_01: which feels like extra.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_01: It's almost like insult to injury.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, why did you sit here and listen to me?
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_01: You didn't even buy the book, but
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_01: I've had people bemoan that happening to them.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_01: So I just think that like,
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_01: if you can book a podcast tour and you can reach a diversified audience,
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_01: it's not the same people at each show.
• 26:19
  Let's say you get to a hundred thousand people hearing from you
• 26:24
  and you sell like
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_01: at a,
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_01: and your conversion rate is like a half a percent.
• 26:29
  You know,
• 26:29
  don't make me do math,
• 26:30
  but it won't be that many books,
• 26:31
  but it'll be some.
• 26:32
  And then in addition to that,
• 26:34
  I would think of it in terms of the long tail.
• 26:37
  I think that like people might listen to your episode and then
• 26:41
  buy your book like
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_01: two years later.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_01: I think that often happens too.
• 26:45
  And then occasionally there will be a conversation or a person
• 26:48
  or a book that is
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_01: just,
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_01: sprinkled with that magic fairy dust and meets its moment really well.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_01: And the stars align and maybe even more people who listen buy it.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_01: But like...
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_01: having said all of that,
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_01: what I would say to people is like,
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_01: think of podcasts as live events,
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_01: even though they're not necessarily live.
• 27:12
  And if you host an event at a bookstore and it's in your
• 27:15
  hometown or in a place
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_01: where you know lots of people or you went to college or something,
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_01: or you're just fancy,
• 27:23
  let's say you host an event at a bookstore and you're not like
• 27:26
  rare air author.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_01: If a hundred people show up,
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_01: You're loving it.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_01: Like 100 people showing up to your book event,
• 27:35
  you would probably be on cloud nine and the room would feel
• 27:38
  full and there would be
• 27:39
  a nice line for signing at the end and you would feel like it
• 27:41
  was a great success.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_01: If you go on a podcast that is very middling in its listenership,
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_01: you are likely to get 500 people.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_01: Like that would be lower tier, you know, to say the least.
• 27:55
  So even if you're going on a podcast that isn't like a super
• 27:58
  big deal,
• 27:59
  500 people listening
• 28:01
  to you in that first month,
• 28:03
  you know,
• 28:03
  it seems like it would be worth your time.
• 28:07
  And if it goes beyond that,
• 28:09
  you know,
• 28:09
  you're starting to fill up a theater or a stadium even.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't think that's nothing.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_01: I know it's not nothing.
• 28:17
  And I just think that people have to have realistic
• 28:21
  expectations around how things
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_01: are going to move the needle.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I say this having learned the hard way.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_01: Like I remember when my book made the LA Times bestseller list,
• 28:30
  And I remember waking up and like,
• 28:34
  wasn't my,
• 28:34
  like my wife saw it in the paper.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_01: This feels so analog,
• 28:38
  but I want to say we had like a hard copy of the paper or
• 28:40
  somebody told us and we
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_01: went and checked it.
• 28:43
  And like,
• 28:44
  I literally spent about like five hours thinking that I was
• 28:48
  going to be rich.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_01: I had no idea.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, oh my God, like I made a bestseller list.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_01: And then I called my agent because I wanted to tell her.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_01: And of course,
• 28:57
  she was like much savvier in the ways of the actual business of
• 29:00
  things and knew how
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_01: little it meant to the bottom line.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_01: And she was sort of like,
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_01: They're there.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_01: You know, like, please, please come down off of your cloud.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_01: You're going to hurt yourself.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_01: Like, this is nice, but it's not like going to be a needle mover.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_01: And it didn't at all.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_01: So I just think people,
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_01: it's better to,
• 29:18
  I'd rather go in eyes open than have that silly morning where I
• 29:21
  thought like I'd
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_01: hit the jackpot and I just look like a fool in hindsight.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_00: Interesting.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_00: So I think I'm more optimistic than you in general about life.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_01: Give it another, how long have you been podcasting?
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_01: Give it four years.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_01: Come back and talk to me in 12 years.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_00: All right, I will.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, but I think I want to ask you about monetization.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_00: You said that you actually make some money.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_00: You don't have to share the numbers, but how do you make money?
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_00: What are your strategies?
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_01: Advertising.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_01: Like sponsors?
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 29:59
  I sell ads on my show through a company called The Poglomerate,
• 30:05
  which is like an ad network.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_01: So they handle the ads.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_01: I don't go out and solicit advertisers.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_01: There is a place where I have outsourced.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_00: Did they reach out to you or did you?
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, they reached out to me.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_01: I figured.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_01: and they brought me into their fold,
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_01: and then they deal with sponsors who make bids,
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_01: and I don't understand their whole process.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_01: And then they basically come to me, and they're like, will you accept?
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I get to screen which advertisers I accept on my show.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_01: And I should say this,
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_01: because my listeners might be listening,
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_01: and they might wonder about this,
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_01: because...
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_01: There are two kinds of ads.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_01: There are like the host read ads and then there are what are called the
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_01: programmatic ads,
• 30:49
  which are like the pre-recorded ads that third parties make on
• 30:52
  their own and then
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_01: they play during my show.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_01: There have been instances in the past where like a listener will be like,
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_01: do you realize that,
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_01: there's like a gun manufacturer who's advertising on your show?
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_01: I don't,
• 31:09
  I don't get to screen those or I've tried to say no to that
• 31:12
  kind of stuff,
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_01: but some of these things worm their way through.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_01: These programmatic ads are kind of like the wild west,
• 31:17
  but I do vet anybody for whom I'm going to actually do an ad
• 31:22
  read in my own voice.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm pretty permissive.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_01: Like I need the money.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_01: Like I'll do anything as long as it's not like some,
• 31:28
  like a gun manufacturer or like some awful entity that I feel
• 31:32
  like is really
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_01: exploiting its workers or being just evil,
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_01: but,
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know, that's kind of one source.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_01: And then I have a book club,
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_01: which I've been running for about 15 years,
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_01: which is another source of revenue.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_01: And then I started Deep Dive,
• 31:47
  which is sort of a spinoff of the podcast to try to deliver
• 31:50
  educational content.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_01: And,
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 31:53
  I'm just trying to think of ways to grow it in a manner that is
• 31:58
  also somewhat
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_01: manageable.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm having like mixed results, like in terms of how manageable it is.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_01: It's so much work to do all these things.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_01: And there's always something else you're supposed to be doing,
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_01: which is like,
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_01: oh,
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_01: you're not doing video?
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I wanted to ask Edmond.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_01: You're not on, yeah.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I just, I start to get, I start to get, uh.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_00: FOMO?
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_00: Not FOMO?
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_01: No, no FOMO.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_01: The opposite of FOMO.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_01: Just like, leave me alone.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_01: Like, the goalposts are always moving.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_01: And there are always, quote unquote, experts who are there.
• 32:31
  to sort of uh work that nerve and to try to tell you that
• 32:34
  you're not doing enough
• 32:35
  or that you need to switch to this platform and you know it
• 32:39
  becomes like a wild
• 32:39
  goose chase and i i'm suspicious of these people after a while
• 32:43
  i think a lot of
• 32:44
  them are con artists who are trying to make money off of
• 32:49
  people's anxiety that's
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_01: what i think but i could be wrong okay
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_00: So you mentioned video.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_00: So I was in Florida for a conference in January.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_00: And the conference is called PodFest.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_00: And it's for podcasters.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_00: And the main takeaway I got from it is video, video, video, video.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_01: That everyone is all active.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_00: I see you shaking your head.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_00: Why not?
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_00: Because this is video.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_00: This is going to be on video.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_01: Great.
• 33:20
  If somebody invites me to guest on something and they want to
• 33:23
  do video,
• 33:23
  that's their business.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_01: But
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_01: I got into this.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_01: I love audio.
• 33:27
  I like the intimacy of having earbuds in and like walking my
• 33:31
  dog and listening to a
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_01: conversation unfold.
• 33:33
  I think there's something insidious and weird about these
• 33:37
  algorithms incentivizing
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_01: everybody to turn themselves into TV shows.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_01: What kind of hell are we living in where everybody has a fucking TV show?
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_01: That drives me crazy.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_01: It drives me crazy.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_01: I think like we don't need another TV show.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_01: I don't need another talking head on my Instagram feed.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_01: That's just me.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_01: I don't want to be that.
• 33:57
  I'd rather be something that people can turn on while they're
• 34:00
  in their car or they
• 34:02
  can turn on while they're walking their dog or they're on the
• 34:04
  treadmill or they're
• 34:05
  just like lying in bed trying to fall asleep and just wanting
• 34:09
  to have some other
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_01: voice in their head aside from their own.
• 34:13
  I really love audio and I love audio interviews and I resent
• 34:18
  the way these market
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_01: forces and these people
• 34:24
  try to tell everybody that they've got to keep keep they keep
• 34:30
  uh telling people
• 34:31
  that they've got to do this and then this and then this and
• 34:34
  it's like dangling a
• 34:35
  carrot in front of people and the payoff i don't think is there
• 34:41
  99 of the time and
• 34:43
  uh i think that sucks and i think there should be a space for
• 34:47
  audio i mean come on
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_01: there's got i mean
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_01: If there's a space for people who like to read books,
• 34:51
  then there's certainly going to be space for people who like to
• 34:53
  listen to podcasts
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_01: and not watch them.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_01: I've never watched a podcast in my life.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_01: I don't want to watch a podcast.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_01: I want to listen to it.
• 35:01
  But maybe younger generations who are more accustomed to the
• 35:05
  constant YouTube short
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_01: of it all will see it differently.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_01: But so far, I'm just going to hold on.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_00: But do you feel like you're kind of resisting it,
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_00: like when the TV came and people wanted to talk to radio and they said,
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_00: no,
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_00: you know.
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_01: Radio has never gone away.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_00: Radio never went away.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_00: That's my point is,
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_00: and I'm playing the devil's advocate here because I have to,
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_00: is that what happens if you just do only audio,
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_00: you're alienating people.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_00: Some people who prefer video and I'm,
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_00: I'm going to tell you,
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_00: and I'm like,
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not even millennial.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_00: I'm a gen X.
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_00: So like I'm close to boomer age, right?
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_00: So I would, when I cook.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_00: I would not listen to a podcast.
• 35:56
  I would watch a podcast because I would have my iPad and I
• 36:00
  would see Joe Rogan or
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_00: whatever while shopping.
• 36:03
  I like to watch it rather than listen to it because it's more
• 36:07
  entertaining,
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_00: especially when I do something I don't like that much to do every day,
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_00: which is cook-breaking dinner.
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_00: Having an iPad for...
• 36:17
  a video to listen to it's for me is more entertaining but if i
• 36:21
  walk my dog yeah i
• 36:22
  will switch to audio so i i switch the medium based on where i
• 36:27
  am and if i insist
• 36:28
  no audio audio audio you're gonna lose let's say the moms
• 36:33
  making dinner maybe you
• 36:34
  don't care about the moms that are making dinner but i care
• 36:38
  about them i care about
• 36:39
  the moms but the moms who are making dinner are the one who
• 36:43
  read are the one who go
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_00: to your book club are the one who who
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_00: So you're like alienating because you think you're being purist.
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes being purist might not work to your own benefit.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_00: So that's my show.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I get that.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_01: I get that.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm fine with it.
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I think I'm just stubborn.
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_01: Like, Terry Gross, I don't think is out there making videos.
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_01: Is she?
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe she is.
• 37:10
  But I just feel like I'm going to be for the people who like to
• 37:15
  listen to podcasts.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_01: And maybe like,
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_01: you know what,
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_01: maybe down the road,
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_01: you never say never,
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_01: maybe down the road,
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_01: I'll just finally be like,
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_01: okay,
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_01: I guess this is the world we're in.
• 37:23
  And I've got three people listening because everybody is just
• 37:25
  slack jawed,
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_01: staring at a screen all day,
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_01: which by the way,
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_01: I'm raising children and it's terrifying to me.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_01: All these people constantly looking into their screens.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_01: It's a terrible way to exist.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_01: Constantly watching video and scrolling and
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think it's good for people.
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_01: I think it makes people unhappy and hurts their brains.
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_01: Like it numbs their brains and I'm willing to die on that hill.
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_01: And conversely,
• 37:53
  I think listening to a really good podcast interview can have
• 37:59
  the kind of depth
• 38:00
  charge and connectivity that reading a really good book can
• 38:04
  have at its very best.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_01: And maybe people can get the same thing like watching this.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_01: Hopefully people at home.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_01: are experiencing that death charge right now,
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_01: just watching me,
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_01: just look wrinkled and tired and cranky.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I guess I just love audio.
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_01: That's why I started doing this.
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_01: Audio existed before TV.
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_01: Audio existed when TV came online.
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_01: Audio existed when the internet came online.
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_01: Audio continues to exist.
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_01: It's not like audio went away.
• 38:33
  It's just that the algorithms are incentivizing people to make
• 38:37
  video because video is stickier.
• 38:40
  It's more likely to make people stay on platform and to make
• 38:42
  these social media companies money.
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_01: So they don't want audio on Instagram.
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_01: They want video.
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_01: They don't want audio on Substack.
• 38:51
  They want video because video is a visual medium and it catches
• 38:54
  people's eyes and
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_01: people stop and Substack makes money.
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_01: But the people creating the video,
• 39:01
  I'm suspicious about how much they're going to see in terms of
• 39:04
  remuneration.
• 39:05
  Maybe people who become really popular will see it,
• 39:08
  but everybody else is just a sucker.
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_01: That's what I think.
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_00: Since I'm one of those suckers, I'm going to tell you.
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe it'll all work out.
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, listen, I got to put an asterisk.
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_01: I'm trying to be a good guest and to kind of say what I can.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_00: No, no, this is fun.
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_00: This is fun.
• 39:24
  But yeah,
• 39:25
  but what I will say is that there should be an asterisk next to
• 39:28
  me at all times.
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_01: I wish you could maybe put this on the bottom of the screen here,
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 39:32
  SPEAKER_01: just with an asterisk just says he could be wrong.
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_01: It happens a lot.
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_00: Well, okay.
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm going to say one thing and then we're going to move on.
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_00: But
• 39:41
  Another thing is video is important is because we live in an AI
• 39:46
  world where trust
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_00: is really low.
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_00: And if I want to trust a person, I want to see them on video.
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_00: Because now I can produce audio easily.
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_00: I've heard podcasts where like one AI talking to the other AI.
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not going to listen to that.
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_00: But especially if I go live, people are going to see me.
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_00: They're going to hear my accent.
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_00: They're going to see my gray hair.
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_00: They're going to see the mole on my face.
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_00: They know I am real, right?
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_01: Have a mole on your face?
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_00: You have beautiful skin.
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_01: I've been envying your skin.
• 40:20
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 40:21
  SPEAKER_00: I'm probably older than you, by the way.
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_01: You look younger.
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_01: You look younger, though.
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_01: That's all that matters in this age of video.
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_00: 1976?
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_00: I'm 75.
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_00: See, I am older than you.
• 40:35
  So I'm just saying that it's now we have to go on video because
• 40:40
  the trust is going down with AI.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_00: They're going to tell, oh, he just uses an AI clone for his voice.
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, no, no, no, no.
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_01: Listen, listen, listen.
• 40:50
  Anybody who listens to my show for any period of time who
• 40:54
  thinks that I would ever
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_01: use an AI clone to make my show is high.
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_01: I think people who listen to my show know that that would never happen.
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not worried about that.
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_01: Again, what a hellish reality we live in.
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_01: It is what it is.
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_01: It is what it is.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_01: But you got to resist it is what I think.
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_01: Fuck that.
• 41:15
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not doing that.
• 41:16
  And I think people,
• 41:17
  people who are just like,
• 41:18
  well,
• 41:18
  this is just the world we live in.
• 41:20
  Don't bow at the altar of Sam Altman and these fucking people
• 41:24
  who just want to
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_01: make,
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_01: they want to,
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_01: quote,
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_01: change the world.
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_01: And they want to be disruptors.
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_01: All that is just euphemisms.
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_01: Those are just euphemisms for make a fuck ton of money.
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_01: They want to be billionaires.
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_01: That's what they want to be.
• 41:37
  SPEAKER_01: They don't care about humanity.
• 41:39
  SPEAKER_01: That's how I feel.
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_01: And maybe I'm wrong.
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_01: Hopefully I'm wrong.
• 41:43
  SPEAKER_01: But nine times out of 10, these tech bros...
• 41:46
  And tech girls who work for these disruptor companies that get
• 41:51
  killer ROI or
• 41:52
  whatever and who try to couch what they're doing in these
• 41:55
  really kind of like
• 41:57
  SPEAKER_01: fluffy humanistic terms are being disingenuous.
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_01: That's what I think.
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_00: I respect that.
• 42:04
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 42:05
  SPEAKER_00: Another thing I am going to switch completely.
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_00: Hopefully that won't piss you off.
• 42:11
  SPEAKER_00: But...
• 42:12
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not angry at you.
• 42:13
  SPEAKER_01: I hope you understand this.
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just trying to be a good guest.
• 42:17
  This is the kind of guest that I would want is somebody who's
• 42:19
  just talking and
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_01: telling me what they actually think without calculating first.
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_00: Since we're like the same age.
• 42:26
  SPEAKER_00: So, all right.
• 42:28
  SPEAKER_00: I'm going to talk about tech tools and your tech stack.
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_00: What are you using to create your podcast?
• 42:37
  If I want to say and tell people I want to create a podcast
• 42:39
  from my bedroom,
• 42:41
  SPEAKER_00: what would you tell them to do?
• 42:43
  SPEAKER_01: Well,
• 42:43
  SPEAKER_01: I would say,
• 42:43
  SPEAKER_01: first of all,
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_01: there's a lot of different ways to do it these days,
• 42:47
  SPEAKER_01: increasingly more.
• 42:47
  SPEAKER_01: There's a million platforms.
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_01: They all work just fine.
• 42:50
  It's not really the end all be all to pick like the quote
• 42:54
  unquote right one.
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_01: I use Riverside and what I will say,
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_01: and again,
• 42:59
  I also have like a very narrow lane of very mild expertise when
• 43:04
  it comes to tech
• 43:05
  SPEAKER_01: stuff.
• 43:05
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not typically good at this kind of thing,
• 43:07
  SPEAKER_01: but I've just learned over the years how to,
• 43:10
  SPEAKER_01: I found a way and a process that works.
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_01: I use Riverside.
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_01: It's worked fine.
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_01: I like that it stores the audio and video locally in the cache.
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_01: It's only on Chrome.
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_01: You have to have Chrome to use Riverside.
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_01: But as I understand it,
• 43:26
  SPEAKER_01: as you're recording,
• 43:27
  SPEAKER_01: the audio and the video is uploaded to the cache,
• 43:30
  the Google Chrome cache of each individual participant in the
• 43:34
  conversation,
• 43:35
  which means that the quality of the audio is not contingent
• 43:38
  upon the quality of the
• 43:39
  SPEAKER_01: Wi-Fi.
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_01: I don't use Wi-Fi because I do this all the time.
• 43:42
  So I actually have a hardline internet in my office so that I
• 43:47
  can't stand listening
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_01: to a show where there are those dips,
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_01: where the voice gets warbled and somebody cuts out.
• 43:54
  And so Riverside is excellent at mitigating against that
• 43:57
  because the audio quality
• 43:59
  SPEAKER_01: and the video quality,
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_01: if you choose to use it,
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_01: is not contingent upon the person's Wi-Fi signal.
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_01: And that has proven to be very useful to me
• 44:09
  in a handful of instances instances in particular where there
• 44:13
  are some real
• 44:14
  glitches in the exchange maybe like i'm thinking of authors who
• 44:17
  are overseas like
• 44:18
  it can sometimes be more of an issue but then you get the final
• 44:22
  audio from
• 44:22
  riverside and it's pristine uh there are no warbles or glitches
• 44:26
  and i'm very
• 44:28
  finicky like increasingly i get finny finickier about audio
• 44:32
  every day that i do
• 44:33
  SPEAKER_01: this and i insist that my show sound really good um
• 44:39
  I can't tolerate audio glitches because I want the body of work
• 44:44
  to be professional,
• 44:45
  but I also want to make sure that I'm representing my guests
• 44:49
  professionally.
• 44:50
  I don't want to create a shitty episode and send it out into
• 44:53
  the world and it just
• 44:54
  SPEAKER_01: kind of sounds bad.
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_01: I did plenty of that in the early years of the show.
• 44:59
  SPEAKER_00: Remember MVP?
• 45:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that was my MVP.
• 45:03
  SPEAKER_01: Those were my MVP years.
• 45:04
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 45:04
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 45:05
  SPEAKER_01: It was a case of my own incompetence when it came to audio production,
• 45:10
  coupled with the fact that the technology itself wasn't maybe
• 45:14
  where it is today.
• 45:15
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you know, Riverside didn't exist when I started.
• 45:19
  SPEAKER_01: There were other platforms,
• 45:20
  SPEAKER_01: but they've gotten a lot more sophisticated and user friendly,
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_01: I think.
• 45:24
  So you never use the video option where you take those video
• 45:28
  clips and put them on
• 45:29
  SPEAKER_00: social media to promote?
• 45:31
  every once in a while but i mean that's another layer of work
• 45:35
  this is another thing
• 45:36
  about it that aggravates me so much is they're like you got to
• 45:38
  do this this this
• 45:39
  and this it's going to take you another six hours of your life
• 45:41
  or whatever it is
• 45:43
  it's just more time it's more energy with the maybe like the
• 45:49
  payoff of a potential
• 45:51
  or the promise of a potential payoff down the road maybe it's
• 45:55
  always this and
• 45:57
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just working so hard to read the books and do the prep,
• 46:00
  SPEAKER_01: conduct the interview well,
• 46:01
  SPEAKER_01: do the post-production,
• 46:02
  SPEAKER_01: get the post staged.
• 46:05
  The part of it that I hate is the part of it where you go out
• 46:08
  and you're like the
• 46:08
  SPEAKER_01: music man trying to sort of rally people to the cause on Instagram.
• 46:13
  SPEAKER_01: The less time I'm on Instagram, the happier I am.
• 46:16
  SPEAKER_01: I don't want to make YouTube shorts.
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_01: I just don't want to.
• 46:20
  SPEAKER_01: And maybe I'm just stubborn.
• 46:21
  SPEAKER_01: I know, and everyone's like, you're not making YouTube shorts?
• 46:23
  SPEAKER_01: Like, your show's losing listeners, bro.
• 46:26
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like,
• 46:27
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe.
• 46:28
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe.
• 46:30
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know for sure.
• 46:32
  SPEAKER_00: So how do you discover a podcast?
• 46:33
  SPEAKER_00: So for me, how I listen to a podcast is, you know,
• 46:39
  i scroll i try not to scroll but i scroll instagram because i
• 46:42
  try to promote my
• 46:43
  business on all these social media platforms and if i see a
• 46:47
  clip i like let's say a
• 46:48
  diary of a ceo like one of my favorite podcasts i immediately
• 46:53
  go to spotify i add
• 46:55
  it i save it and when i go walk to my my dog i listen to it i
• 47:00
  would not have
• 47:01
  discovered it if i scrolled through spotify because you nobody
• 47:06
  scrolls through
• 47:06
  SPEAKER_00: spotify so
• 47:09
  Most of the podcasts that I discovered and I listened to and I
• 47:13
  saved and I shared
• 47:15
  SPEAKER_00: are because I saw clips on social media,
• 47:17
  SPEAKER_00: whether it's Instagram,
• 47:18
  SPEAKER_00: TikTok,
• 47:19
  SPEAKER_00: or YouTube shorts,
• 47:20
  SPEAKER_00: or even Facebook,
• 47:23
  SPEAKER_00: or even people sharing it via text or WhatsApp or whatever.
• 47:28
  i think that's how people are discovering podcasts whether we
• 47:31
  like it or not is you
• 47:33
  know if you can't beat them you'll have to jump eventually i
• 47:38
  want you to believe
• 47:39
  don't they i know you just have to kneel before sam or whatever
• 47:42
  you gotta join the
• 47:43
  matrix but i think you're right i do think like and i have had
• 47:48
  this conversation
• 47:48
  with myself where like if i am going to uh compromise at all it
• 47:54
  would be in sharing
• 47:55
  SPEAKER_01: clips and
• 47:58
  Letting that be a discoverable thing for people that would
• 48:02
  maybe bring people to the show.
• 48:04
  SPEAKER_01: Correct.
• 48:05
  SPEAKER_01: I just wish I could push a button and it would all just go out.
• 48:07
  SPEAKER_00: Actually, you can.
• 48:09
  SPEAKER_00: It's very easy.
• 48:10
  SPEAKER_00: It's very easy.
• 48:11
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I don't spend more than two minutes.
• 48:15
  SPEAKER_01: Goes to where?
• 48:16
  SPEAKER_01: To like YouTube or does it go to everywhere?
• 48:18
  SPEAKER_00: Everywhere.
• 48:19
  SPEAKER_00: YouTube shorts, TikTok.
• 48:21
  SPEAKER_01: You just push the everywhere button and it goes everywhere?
• 48:24
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 48:24
  SPEAKER_00: Well, thank God.
• 48:26
  SPEAKER_00: It goes to YouTube, Instagram, Facebook, Substack, LinkedIn, everywhere.
• 48:41
  SPEAKER_00: It's a brave new word, my friend.
• 48:43
  SPEAKER_01: I'm going to have to start moisturizing more.
• 48:45
  SPEAKER_01: I got to get my skincare.
• 48:46
  SPEAKER_01: I'm going to be putting myself out there.
• 48:50
  all right um okay so i noticed you're on patreon how is that
• 48:58
  working for you i need
• 49:01
  to be better again that's the part of it like the last thing in
• 49:03
  the world i want to
• 49:04
  do is ask people to support me on patreon i just want to like
• 49:08
  light myself on fire
• 49:09
  every time i say that but there's got to be a way i like to
• 49:12
  have it open in case
• 49:13
  SPEAKER_01: there are people who are inspired to support the show uh
• 49:18
  SPEAKER_01: And it's not nothing, you know, that's another little stream of revenue.
• 49:21
  SPEAKER_01: It's not much, but it's like, it's fine.
• 49:24
  SPEAKER_01: It like, you know, buys me some meals or whatever.
• 49:30
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, that's like one of those things.
• 49:31
  SPEAKER_01: That's one of my to-dos.
• 49:33
  SPEAKER_01: Like, oh, make your Patreon more robust.
• 49:35
  And like,
• 49:36
  I think I need to create more of a VIP experience as I
• 49:42
  understand it.
• 49:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 49:44
  SPEAKER_01: So that I'm not just asking people to support the show.
• 49:46
  SPEAKER_01: I'm actually offering them something.
• 49:48
  SPEAKER_01: But again, like that's going to take me hours to do.
• 49:52
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't know, I'll get around to it eventually.
• 49:56
  SPEAKER_00: But, you know, all of your problems will be solved.
• 49:59
  SPEAKER_00: Let's say 99% of them if you just hire a VA.
• 50:03
  SPEAKER_00: And,
• 50:03
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 50:04
  SPEAKER_00: if you hire a VA from,
• 50:06
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 50:06
  SPEAKER_00: and they're really good,
• 50:07
  SPEAKER_00: like let's say from the Philippines.
• 50:09
  SPEAKER_00: Because they speak really good English.
• 50:11
  SPEAKER_00: They're very tech savvy.
• 50:12
  SPEAKER_00: They don't charge much for an hourly rate.
• 50:14
  SPEAKER_00: And there are companies that can help you find vetted VAs.
• 50:19
  SPEAKER_00: And all of these problems will be solved.
• 50:22
  SPEAKER_00: Sick?
• 50:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think so.
• 50:24
  SPEAKER_00: Like 99% of your problems.
• 50:26
  SPEAKER_01: And by the way, for people listening, a VA is a virtual assistant.
• 50:30
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sure they're not.
• 50:31
  SPEAKER_01: It's not Veterans Affairs for anybody out there.
• 50:35
  SPEAKER_00: But I get it.
• 50:36
  SPEAKER_01: You're very savvy in the way of the business lingo.
• 50:41
  SPEAKER_01: I get it.
• 50:41
  SPEAKER_01: I read that stuff too.
• 50:43
  SPEAKER_01: But it's like virtual assistants, the four-hour work week.
• 50:48
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like a sucker for all that stuff.
• 50:50
  But I also resent it because I think these people are scamming
• 50:53
  a lot of us.
• 50:54
  SPEAKER_01: That's what I think.
• 50:56
  SPEAKER_01: There's some truth in it.
• 50:57
  SPEAKER_01: I think that a VA might be my answer.
• 50:59
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 51:00
  SPEAKER_01: Somebody could set up my Patreon page.
• 51:02
  SPEAKER_01: It would be nice.
• 51:03
  I think I looked into it a little bit and I was worried because
• 51:06
  there's not a way
• 51:07
  SPEAKER_01: to give someone access to your Patreon at a lower tier than owner.
• 51:13
  SPEAKER_01: Like you just sort of have to give them your password.
• 51:15
  And so I get a little bit skittish about just handing my
• 51:18
  password out to some person.
• 51:19
  I mean,
• 51:20
  you don't have to give them Patreon,
• 51:21
  but they can handle all your social media.
• 51:23
  SPEAKER_00: They can handle the booking for you.
• 51:25
  SPEAKER_00: They can like all the things that you complain about.
• 51:28
  SPEAKER_00: These would be useful.
• 51:30
  SPEAKER_01: are voluminous, as it turns out.
• 51:33
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly, I noticed.
• 51:34
  Okay,
• 51:38
  so do you read all the books of the people that I interview on
• 51:41
  your show?
• 51:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 51:43
  SPEAKER_00: So you actually read over a thousand books?
• 51:47
  SPEAKER_01: No, no, no, back in the day, I didn't.
• 51:49
  SPEAKER_01: That changed, you know, I don't know, seven or eight years ago.
• 51:52
  I think when I first started the show and for the early
• 51:55
  iteration of the show,
• 51:58
  SPEAKER_01: it was really like in my head,
• 51:59
  SPEAKER_01: I was like,
• 52:00
  SPEAKER_01: I just want to talk to them as people.
• 52:02
  I'd never heard a show where authors just sort of shot the shit
• 52:07
  and talked candidly
• 52:08
  SPEAKER_01: about themselves and their lives.
• 52:09
  SPEAKER_01: And I think my idea,
• 52:11
  SPEAKER_01: and I'm not entirely divorced from this perspective,
• 52:13
  SPEAKER_01: is that if somebody is an interesting interview in that way,
• 52:17
  that conversation is every bit as likely to sell their book to
• 52:20
  my audience than
• 52:21
  some sort of like nuanced academic-ish conversation about the
• 52:27
  contents of the book.
• 52:29
  And what I will always say is that like maybe the core
• 52:32
  challenge of making book
• 52:33
  SPEAKER_01: media interesting is the fact that a huge percentage,
• 52:37
  I think probably an overwhelming majority of people who listen
• 52:41
  to an episode
• 52:42
  SPEAKER_01: haven't read the book yet.
• 52:44
  SPEAKER_01: That's my guess.
• 52:45
  SPEAKER_01: I don't have any way of really verifying that,
• 52:47
  but I don't think having a consistent podcast audience that the
• 52:51
  people who are
• 52:52
  listening to my show are reading every single book and then
• 52:54
  coming to my show and
• 52:55
  SPEAKER_01: listening to the author,
• 52:56
  SPEAKER_01: that doesn't make any sense.
• 52:58
  I think that you're getting a majority of people who haven't
• 53:02
  read but are just
• 53:03
  interested in hearing two people talk and maybe learning about
• 53:07
  this author.
• 53:08
  SPEAKER_01: And,
• 53:08
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 53:08
  SPEAKER_01: there's lots of writers in my audience who want to glean,
• 53:11
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 53:11
  SPEAKER_01: writerly wisdom from the conversation.
• 53:13
  And then there is maybe that smaller percentage of people who
• 53:16
  have read the book.
• 53:18
  So the core challenge is that if that is the way things are
• 53:21
  sorted out in terms of
• 53:23
  SPEAKER_01: audience,
• 53:24
  SPEAKER_01: then...
• 53:26
  as a host,
• 53:27
  I've got to try to make the episode interesting to both groups.
• 53:32
  SPEAKER_01: And there's nothing,
• 53:34
  SPEAKER_01: in my view anyway,
• 53:35
  there's nothing more boring than listening to two people talk
• 53:38
  about a book that I
• 53:39
  SPEAKER_01: haven't read.
• 53:40
  Unless maybe it's like a memoir and it's very like sensational
• 53:44
  or it's like true crimey.
• 53:46
  SPEAKER_01: It's like a narrative that I can sort of enter into.
• 53:48
  SPEAKER_01: But if I'm listening to two people talk about a novel,
• 53:50
  SPEAKER_01: there are,
• 53:52
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 53:52
  SPEAKER_01: I think there are ways and I've tried to do this to talk about it
• 53:56
  in a manner that is compelling and creates some accessibility
• 53:59
  even for the people
• 54:00
  who have not read um but i think for people who have not read
• 54:05
  it's more likely that
• 54:06
  the author's personal story how they came up as an artist
• 54:10
  struggles that they had
• 54:12
  challenges that they overcame all the publication backstory
• 54:17
  stories of addiction
• 54:18
  SPEAKER_01: bad breakups
• 54:21
  you know,
• 54:21
  all that kind of stuff is maybe juicier and easier for people
• 54:24
  to grab onto.
• 54:26
  SPEAKER_01: And if you just get into a really,
• 54:28
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 54:29
  SPEAKER_01: really book nerdy,
• 54:30
  SPEAKER_01: academic-ish discussion of a book,
• 54:33
  SPEAKER_01: you're going to please a certain subset of the audience.
• 54:35
  But like,
• 54:36
  I think in that case,
• 54:37
  you're really damning yourself to a very small niche.
• 54:41
  SPEAKER_00: So do you actually read one book a week?
• 54:44
  SPEAKER_01: More, sometimes.
• 54:45
  SPEAKER_01: But I want to say, as an addendum to what I just said, that
• 54:50
  SPEAKER_01: the authors themselves,
• 54:51
  like this is what I think I sort of evolved toward over the
• 54:53
  years of the show.
• 54:55
  They obviously want you to engage with their work and that's as
• 54:59
  it should be.
• 55:01
  And I think that the conversations that I've had in recent
• 55:04
  years very much deal with the book.
• 55:07
  And I want to try to honor the authors and the work that
• 55:10
  they've done and to just
• 55:11
  SPEAKER_01: honor literature,
• 55:12
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 55:12
  SPEAKER_01: like that's a huge,
• 55:14
  SPEAKER_01: that's the core of this entire project.
• 55:16
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah,
• 55:17
  The show in its format has evolved to deal more with the book
• 55:22
  over the years,
• 55:22
  SPEAKER_01: but I'm trying to sort of do both.
• 55:24
  I'm trying to get into the personal stuff and I'm trying to
• 55:28
  deal with the book so
• 55:29
  that I can please as many people as possible and to make the
• 55:32
  author feel seen and
• 55:34
  SPEAKER_01: respected for the work that they've done.
• 55:36
  SPEAKER_00: How do you read so many books?
• 55:38
  SPEAKER_01: Audiobooks at like 2.5 speed.
• 55:41
  SPEAKER_00: Ah, 2.5.
• 55:42
  SPEAKER_00: That's pretty fast.
• 55:43
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, as fast as I can tolerate.
• 55:45
  SPEAKER_01: And I walk my dog in the morning...
• 55:47
  And I'm just sort of mainlining a book with like this rigid
• 55:52
  facial expression where
• 55:53
  SPEAKER_01: I'm trying so hard to focus.
• 55:55
  SPEAKER_01: But it's the only way I can do it.
• 55:56
  SPEAKER_01: Like I'm too slow of a reader on paper to be able to manage the churn.
• 56:01
  SPEAKER_01: But it's not the ideal way.
• 56:04
  SPEAKER_01: But it's the way that I have to do it.
• 56:05
  SPEAKER_00: Audible or Spotify or Libby are all of them.
• 56:09
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, all of them.
• 56:09
  I mean,
• 56:10
  NetGalley,
• 56:11
  Google Play,
• 56:13
  Spotify,
• 56:13
  Audible,
• 56:14
  Libro,
• 56:15
  AudibleBooks.com.
• 56:16
  SPEAKER_01: I have all the apps.
• 56:17
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, two quick questions because I have to go pick up my son, see?
• 56:24
  SPEAKER_00: First one is, you mentioned book club.
• 56:27
  SPEAKER_00: How are you monetizing?
• 56:28
  Because I have a book club and it's basically more of a wine
• 56:32
  club for the ladies.
• 56:35
  SPEAKER_00: But how are you monetizing your book club?
• 56:37
  SPEAKER_00: I am unfabled, I mean, but what?
• 56:39
  SPEAKER_01: People pay, there's a monthly fee for the book club.
• 56:43
  SPEAKER_01: On what?
• 56:44
  SPEAKER_00: On Fable?
• 56:45
  SPEAKER_00: Or how do you monetize it?
• 56:47
  SPEAKER_01: No, it's PayPal.
• 56:48
  SPEAKER_01: People sign up for a subscription and then the books.
• 56:52
  SPEAKER_00: And what do you offer them?
• 56:55
  SPEAKER_01: The book and then an interview with the author.
• 57:00
  SPEAKER_01: And there's a lot of churn with the book club.
• 57:04
  So over the years,
• 57:05
  there's been like hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of people.
• 57:08
  SPEAKER_01: If they were all still members...
• 57:10
  SPEAKER_01: I'd be loving it.
• 57:11
  SPEAKER_01: You know, people join and then they go away and then they come back.
• 57:14
  SPEAKER_01: And so it creates like a revenue stream.
• 57:17
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 57:19
  SPEAKER_00: Another one.
• 57:20
  And then I want to go read some of the comments and the
• 57:23
  questions because they're funny.
• 57:27
  SPEAKER_01: Cheer up, Brad.
• 57:28
  SPEAKER_01: Listen, this could just be Monday morning, guys.
• 57:31
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe you're just catching me on a day where I'm just grumpy.
• 57:35
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 57:36
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, but Substack, why aren't you putting your podcasts on Substack?
• 57:42
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 57:43
  SPEAKER_01: This is the thing.
• 57:44
  SPEAKER_01: Another platform, I got to put it on?
• 57:47
  SPEAKER_01: Is that what I got to do?
• 57:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 57:48
  SPEAKER_00: If you have a VA, like for me, I have two podcasts on Substack.
• 57:53
  SPEAKER_00: Not one, two.
• 57:54
  SPEAKER_01: Who's your VA?
• 57:54
  SPEAKER_01: What's their name?
• 57:55
  SPEAKER_01: Me!
• 57:56
  SPEAKER_00: I have my VA. Oh, your own VA.
• 58:00
  SPEAKER_00: No, I have somebody who does the production for my podcast.
• 58:07
  SPEAKER_00: But he's not a VA.
• 58:08
  SPEAKER_00: He's like the producer.
• 58:10
  SPEAKER_00: And I found him on Fiverr.
• 58:11
  SPEAKER_00: He's great.
• 58:12
  SPEAKER_00: He's from Sri Lanka.
• 58:13
  SPEAKER_00: Been with him for four years.
• 58:16
  SPEAKER_00: At first, I did not even know if he was a man or a woman.
• 58:18
  SPEAKER_00: And I didn't care because the production was so good.
• 58:22
  SPEAKER_00: And he's great.
• 58:23
  SPEAKER_00: Amazing.
• 58:24
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't ask for a resume.
• 58:25
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't ask for anything.
• 58:26
  SPEAKER_00: I looked.
• 58:27
  tried him once great that's it and i've been with him for four
• 58:31
  years it's it's a
• 58:32
  trust economy rather than like you know show me your phd from
• 58:36
  the podcasting
• 58:36
  academy whatever but uh so yeah i mean you're gonna do that
• 58:42
  okay so i'm gonna go
• 58:43
  SPEAKER_00: quickly through the comments before i leave my son outside
• 58:48
  SPEAKER_00: Okay,
• 58:48
  SPEAKER_00: so Holly says,
• 58:50
  love that your work is for you and you allow it to be whatever
• 58:55
  it's meant to be.
• 58:56
  SPEAKER_00: Look, you have a fan.
• 58:57
  SPEAKER_00: You have a new fan here.
• 58:58
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you, Holly.
• 59:00
  SPEAKER_00: Carol Tammy says, stick to what you do best.
• 59:04
  SPEAKER_00: And Holly also says, both of you look great.
• 59:08
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you, Holly.
• 59:09
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you, Holly.
• 59:10
  SPEAKER_01: I like Holly.
• 59:12
  SPEAKER_00: I know.
• 59:12
  SPEAKER_00: She's just giving me all of these compliments.
• 59:17
  SPEAKER_00: Carl Temme says, cheer up, Brad.
• 59:20
  SPEAKER_00: Man, you complain more than I do.
• 59:22
  SPEAKER_00: This is my great talent.
• 59:27
  SPEAKER_01: I'm a prodigy.
• 59:28
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 59:29
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 59:30
  SPEAKER_00: So, Brad, before we leave, how can people reach you?
• 59:33
  SPEAKER_00: How can they buy your books, listen to your podcast?
• 59:35
  SPEAKER_00: So this is your time to do your shameless plug.
• 59:38
  SPEAKER_00: So the floor is yours.
• 59:41
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 59:41
  SPEAKER_01: So my podcast is called Other People, but it's spelled really annoyingly.
• 59:45
  SPEAKER_01: It's Other PPL is the way that you spell my podcast.
• 59:48
  SPEAKER_01: So Other PPL, it's available wherever podcasts are available.
• 59:52
  SPEAKER_01: The website is OtherPPL.com.
• 59:54
  SPEAKER_01: My website is BradListie.com.
• 59:57
  SPEAKER_01: The show is on Instagram in blue sky.
• 59:59
  SPEAKER_01: And I have a sub stack.
• 1:00:01
  SPEAKER_01: So you can follow me here on sub stack.
• 1:00:02
  SPEAKER_01: And I really got to put my podcast on sub stack.
• 1:00:05
  SPEAKER_01: You can do that.
• 1:00:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:00:06
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I do is, so I host it on Buzzsprout, the first one.
• 1:00:11
  SPEAKER_00: This one is completely on Substack,
• 1:00:13
  SPEAKER_00: but the other one where I only talk to authors is on Buzzsprout,
• 1:00:17
  SPEAKER_00: because Buzzsprout only allows you to write show notes.
• 1:00:20
  SPEAKER_00: So what I do is I take the script,
• 1:00:23
  SPEAKER_00: And then I turn the script into a whole blog post or a whole post.
• 1:00:29
  SPEAKER_00: And then I put it on podcast and I send it as a newsletter.
• 1:00:32
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes, and I also upload the audio natively on Substack.
• 1:00:40
  SPEAKER_00: So I kind of host it.
• 1:00:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't think...
• 1:00:45
  SPEAKER_00: on Substack.
• 1:00:46
  And sometimes some episodes double or triple the amount of
• 1:00:50
  downloads I get on Buzzsprout.
• 1:00:53
  SPEAKER_01: Can I ask you a question?
• 1:00:55
  Are the analytics that you get from Substack independent of the
• 1:00:58
  analytics that you
• 1:00:58
  SPEAKER_01: get from your other?
• 1:01:00
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so they're their own entity.
• 1:01:01
  SPEAKER_01: Correct.
• 1:01:01
  SPEAKER_00: So I take the edited file
• 1:01:07
  that my buddy in Sri Lanka sends me and I upload it on
• 1:01:11
  Buzzsprout and then I look
• 1:01:13
  at the analytics and see and I do the marketing and the shorts
• 1:01:17
  and then I look and
• 1:01:18
  I look at let's say in a month what were like the top ones and
• 1:01:22
  what are the ones
• 1:01:23
  SPEAKER_00: that I think would do really well onSubstack I take them I repurpose them
• 1:01:28
  repurpose them into a post,
• 1:01:30
  and then I send it to my 5,000 subscribers on Substack.
• 1:01:36
  And then I give them the option to either listen within the
• 1:01:39
  nativeSubstack
• 1:01:41
  SPEAKER_00: Or I put links to Buzzsprout and YouTube or whatever.
• 1:01:50
  SPEAKER_00: But they have the options.
• 1:01:51
  But if they listen on,
• 1:01:53
  let's say,
• 1:01:55
  Spotify,
• 1:01:56
  because I embed it,
• 1:01:57
  it will go to Buzzsprout.
• 1:01:59
  SPEAKER_00: But if they listen within the embedded native Substack player,
• 1:02:03
  SPEAKER_00: it will go to Substack.
• 1:02:05
  SPEAKER_00: And this is how the analytics work.
• 1:02:08
  SPEAKER_00: But nobody told me this.
• 1:02:10
  SPEAKER_00: I kind of MacGyvered it.
• 1:02:15
  SPEAKER_00: And it worked.
• 1:02:18
  SPEAKER_00: And nobody knows what they're doing.
• 1:02:20
  SPEAKER_00: just figuring it out as we go.
• 1:02:22
  SPEAKER_00: And this is kind of became a process that I do.
• 1:02:25
  SPEAKER_00: I look at the best one and I repurpose them and put them on Substack.
• 1:02:28
  SPEAKER_00: Meanwhile, this one, which is, this is only for people on Substack.
• 1:02:32
  And it's not only for authors,
• 1:02:33
  we talk about Substack growth,
• 1:02:34
  whatever.
• 1:02:35
  SPEAKER_00: That's hosted natively on Substack.
• 1:02:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I also connect it to the other players.
• 1:02:42
  SPEAKER_00: And all the analytics are within Substack.
• 1:02:45
  SPEAKER_00: The other are just kind of divided.
• 1:02:47
  SPEAKER_00: But maybe it's not the best strategy, but it works.
• 1:02:51
  SPEAKER_00: And I get audience from different platforms.
• 1:02:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:02:56
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe I'll try that, maybe.
• 1:02:57
  SPEAKER_01: Put my podcast on Substack.
• 1:02:59
  I've noticed there's a podcast option,
• 1:03:01
  but I wish it happened automatically.
• 1:03:05
  SPEAKER_00: Happy to help you pro bono.
• 1:03:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:03:09
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, good.
• 1:03:10
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not going to have to pay for this.
• 1:03:12
  SPEAKER_00: Listen, your friend, Holly, has a comment.
• 1:03:14
  SPEAKER_00: If it were not for Substack, I would not have stumbled upon you both.
• 1:03:20
  SPEAKER_00: I'm nowhere to exploring the author world.
• 1:03:22
  SPEAKER_00: I'm grateful you're both on here.
• 1:03:24
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, I will shut up now.
• 1:03:25
  SPEAKER_00: No, no, no, Holly, you've been great.
• 1:03:28
  SPEAKER_00: Keep talking, Holly.
• 1:03:30
  SPEAKER_00: Keep talking.
• 1:03:31
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 1:03:32
  SPEAKER_00: You made him less cranky, so that's good.
• 1:03:38
  I do notice,
• 1:03:39
  though,
• 1:03:39
  that Substack is where a lot of writers are.
• 1:03:41
  SPEAKER_01: It feels pure in terms of my feed.
• 1:03:44
  SPEAKER_01: My feed feels very literary and kind and bookish.
• 1:03:48
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 1:03:49
  SPEAKER_00: And there's lots of cranky authors, so you'll find your tribe.
• 1:03:53
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah.
• 1:03:54
  SPEAKER_00: Right at home.
• 1:03:56
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 1:03:58
  SPEAKER_00: So thank you very much, Brad.
• 1:04:00
  SPEAKER_00: This has been really fun.
• 1:04:02
  SPEAKER_00: And let's stay in touch.
• 1:04:03
  SPEAKER_00: And for anyone who joined us today,
• 1:04:05
  thank you so much for joining us for another episode of the
• 1:04:08
  Writer Substack Salon.
• 1:04:11
  SPEAKER_00: And until we meet again.
• 1:04:13
  SPEAKER_00: Bye.
• 1:04:14
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 1:04:14
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks, everybody.
• 1:04:15
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 1:04:16
  SPEAKER_00: Take care.
• 1:04:17
  SPEAKER_00: Bye-bye.