Latest / Podcasts By Donna Jodhan / Remarkable World Commentary Episode #119: Interview with Diane Bergeron, Head, Global Strategies & Senior Vice President Public Affairs, CNIB

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Remarkable World Commentary Episode #119: Interview with Diane Bergeron, Head, Global Strategies & Senior Vice President Public Affairs, CNIB · Podcasts By Donna Jodhan

0:12
Podcast Commentator: [upbeat music] Greetings. Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP,
0:17
Podcast Commentator: and MBA invites you to listen to her bi-weekly podcast,
0:22
Podcast Commentator: Remarkable World Commentary. Here, Donna shares some of her innermost thoughts,
0:27
Podcast Commentator: insights, perspectives, and more with her listeners.
0:31
Podcast Commentator: Donna focuses on topics that directly affect the future of kids,
0:35
Podcast Commentator: especially kids with disabilities. Donna is a blind advocate,
0:40
Podcast Commentator: author, sight loss coach, dinner mystery producer, writer,
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Podcast Commentator: entrepreneur, law graduate, and podcast commentator.
0:50
Podcast Commentator: She has decades of lived experiences, knowledge, skills,
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Podcast Commentator: and expertise in access technology and information.
0:58
Podcast Commentator: As someone who has been internationally recognized for her work and roles,
1:02
Podcast Commentator: she just wants to make things better than possible.
1:06
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Hello, everyone,
1:08
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: and welcome to another episode of the Remarkable World Commentary.
1:14
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I'm Donna J. Jodhan, a lifelong disability advocate,
1:19
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: and one who sees the world mainly through sound, touch,
1:24
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: and stubborn optimism.
1:27
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I am a law graduate, an accessibility consultant, author,
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: lifelong barrier buster, who also happens to be blind.
1:38
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You may know me from a few headline moments, as in November of 2010,
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I won the landmark Charter case that forced the Canadian government to make its
1:50
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: websites accessible to every Canadian, not just to sighted ones.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And in July of 2019,
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I co-led the Accessible Canada Act with more than two dozen
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: disability groups to turn equal access into federal law.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And most recently, on June the 3rd, 2022,
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I was greatly humbled by Her Late Majesty's Platinum Jubilee Award for
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: tireless commitment to removing barriers.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: When I'm not in a courtroom or in a committee room or in a pottery studio,
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: you'll find me coaching kids with vision loss,
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: producing audio mysteries,
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: or helping tech companies to make their gadgets talk back in
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: plain language.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Everything I do circles one goal,
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: and that is to turn accessibility from an afterthought into
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: everyday practice.
3:00
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I invite you to think of this show as our shared workbench,
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: where policy meets lived experience,
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: and lived experience sparks fresh ideas.
3:13
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Before we jump into today's conversation,
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: let me shine a quick spotlight on today's guest,
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: a change maker whose work is as every bit as remarkable
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: as the world that we are trying to change and build.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I am extremely pleased and privileged to welcome Diane Bergeron
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: to our Remarkable World Commentary podcast.
3:46
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Welcome, Di, or should I say Dr. Di?
3:50
Diane Bergeron: [laughs] Thank you, Donna.
3:53
Diane Bergeron: I'm so happy to be here.
3:55
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: [laughs] I want to congratulate you.
3:59
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I didn't know about this until Aaron told me,
4:03
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: and
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: before anything else, congratulations, or should I say now,
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Dr. Di, or Dr. Bergeron.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: This past June,
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: MacEwan University awarded you an honorary Doctor
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: of the University degree,
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: and you are a three-dash-time MacEwan graduate
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: yourself.
4:33
Diane Bergeron: Yes.
4:33
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: What did it mean to return to Edmonton and receive that honor?
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And what message did you most want that graduating
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: class to carry with them?
4:49
Diane Bergeron: Wow.
4:51
Diane Bergeron: When they called me,
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Diane Bergeron: they had actually sent me an email from the president's office
4:58
Diane Bergeron: asking
4:59
Diane Bergeron: if they could set up a time to talk to me with the president,
5:02
Diane Bergeron: and I really honestly thought they were gonna ask me to volunteer on a committee
5:06
Diane Bergeron: or ask me for money.
5:08
Diane Bergeron: And so [laughs] when the president got on, and she's like,
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Diane Bergeron: "I was wondering if you could come out here in June and accept an honorary
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Diane Bergeron: doctorate," I was just like, "What? Huh? What?"
5:19
Diane Bergeron: [laughs]
5:19
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, cool. Me?
5:20
Diane Bergeron: I was very confused. [laughs] And
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Diane Bergeron: it was such an honor to receive it,
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Diane Bergeron: not only because it's from my alma mater,
5:32
Diane Bergeron: but my daughter also got her Bachelor of
5:38
Diane Bergeron: Social Work there, and my stepson also graduated, so it's a family affair.
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Diane Bergeron: So it was really nice to be there.
5:49
Diane Bergeron: In my
5:51
Diane Bergeron: convocation address,
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Diane Bergeron: I talked to the fact that,
6:00
Diane Bergeron: well, there was a couple of things that I pointed out,
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Diane Bergeron: but I think the key point was around
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Diane Bergeron: failure and that I have learned more from my failures than I've learned from any
6:11
Diane Bergeron: success. And then if you're not failing,
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Diane Bergeron: then you're just not trying hard enough because nobody can do their very best
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Diane Bergeron: if they're not giving out their best,
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Diane Bergeron: which means they have to be prepared to fail and then learn from that failure.
6:28
Diane Bergeron: And that, I would say, is one of the key.
6:30
Diane Bergeron: And then the other thing that I wanted them to know was that
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Diane Bergeron: the only one that can stop them now is them.
6:38
Diane Bergeron: They are the future and they now have control over
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Diane Bergeron: the world. We need people in the world that are gonna be good,
6:47
Diane Bergeron: strong leaders, and this now becomes their role coming out of
6:52
Diane Bergeron: these programs.
6:53
Diane Bergeron: And so making sure that they understood that they're the only ones that can stop
6:57
Diane Bergeron: them now, so to go out and just live. Live it to the fullest.
7:01
Diane Bergeron: So it was amazing. It was amazing ceremony. Really enjoyed it.
7:06
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: These are very, very humbling remarks.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Nobody likes to talk about failing, but one has to fail in order to learn,
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: and one has to fail in order to get up again and succeed,
7:18
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: right?
7:19
Diane Bergeron: Well, it builds resilience, right?
7:20
Diane Bergeron: And that's one of the things that I've always said is especially for those of us
7:24
Diane Bergeron: that have
7:25
Diane Bergeron: a disability or some kind of—whether
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Diane Bergeron: you're blind, whether you use a wheelchair,
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Diane Bergeron: whatever it is—we need to build resiliency because that resiliency is
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Diane Bergeron: what's gonna get us through the day. So
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Diane Bergeron: how do you build resiliency if you don't fail? So you need to.
7:49
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I remember the first day I met you was on Parliament Hill,
7:52
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: and John Rafferty brought us together because we were attending some sort of
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: function, and then we met Justin Trudeau, the future prime minister.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And I'll never forget that day, and that was quite some time ago.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And now
8:09
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I'm gonna call you
8:11
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Dr.
8:13
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: B. So Dr. B,
8:15
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: MacEwan University described your impact as inspiring
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: others to focus on abilities rather than assumptions.
8:28
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Where did that philosophy come from for you?
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And can you share a moment when someone's assumption about
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: what a blind woman could do was proven wrong?
8:47
Diane Bergeron: You always ask these great questions.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: [laughs] I try.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: [laughs]
8:52
Diane Bergeron: I'll tell you where it came from. And
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Diane Bergeron: it's the example that gave me this whole philosophy.
9:03
Diane Bergeron: I'm gonna say I was 16 years old or 17 years old.
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Diane Bergeron: And as you know, I'm an animal lover.
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Diane Bergeron: And I love dogs. I also love horses.
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Diane Bergeron: And I wanted to be around horses, but I was in Montreal.
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Diane Bergeron: I lived in the city.
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Diane Bergeron: But there was
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Diane Bergeron: a stable that I could get to, and
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Diane Bergeron: I wanted to go and go horseback riding, so I did.
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Diane Bergeron: I did that one day, and then I thought, "I'd like to work here."
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Diane Bergeron: Like, volunteer.
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Diane Bergeron: I'm ready to muck out the stable.
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Diane Bergeron: And I'd like to come and actually do this.
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Diane Bergeron: And
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Diane Bergeron: somebody said, "Well, you can't do that. You're blind."
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Diane Bergeron: A blind person can't do that.
9:56
Diane Bergeron: And I remember thinking, "Well, of course I can do it.
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Diane Bergeron: I just need to figure it out." And
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Diane Bergeron: I remember going to the stable and
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Diane Bergeron: saying to them, "Look,
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Diane Bergeron: I don't want to get paid. I just wanna volunteer.
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Diane Bergeron: I just would like to learn about the horses."
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Diane Bergeron: And the woman was like, "Yeah, okay. Well, let's start you off,
10:20
Diane Bergeron: see what it is that will work for you." And we just started building it,
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Diane Bergeron: building it, and before the end of the summer,
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Diane Bergeron: I ended up teaching some classes.
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Diane Bergeron: And
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Diane Bergeron: I was like,
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Diane Bergeron: when you do a trail ride, you have somebody in the front guiding,
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Diane Bergeron: then somebody in the back that's the person that is there to make sure that
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Diane Bergeron: nobody goes astray. And so I'd end up the horse in the back,
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Diane Bergeron: and
10:47
Diane Bergeron: it was one of those things that just hit me at that moment was,
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Diane Bergeron: well, just because somebody said I can't doesn't mean I can't.
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Diane Bergeron: I just have to think what do I wanna do,
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Diane Bergeron: and then I have to figure out a way to make it happen
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Diane Bergeron: and not let these assumptions
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Diane Bergeron: define who I am and what I wanna do.
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Diane Bergeron: And that was literally when it happened to me, was at the stable.
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Diane Bergeron: And I've kinda lived my life that way. I've just lived it and thought,
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Diane Bergeron: "I'm just gonna do whatever I want."
11:21
Diane Bergeron: And, I mean, within reason. Nobody wants me doing their brain surgery,
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Diane Bergeron: so I've never tried that one. [laughs]
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: No, I hope not. [laughs]
11:28
Diane Bergeron: But just
11:30
Diane Bergeron: every day we face challenges.
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Diane Bergeron: Whether it's because of sight loss—I'm getting older,
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Diane Bergeron: right? Now I'm facing different challenges, right?
11:39
Diane Bergeron: Getting my shoes on becomes more difficult.
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Diane Bergeron: [laughs] So you just have to kinda think about it from how do I
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Diane Bergeron: take an assumption and change it into—or remove whatever barriers it is
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Diane Bergeron: so that their assumptions are not gonna define me?
11:56
Diane Bergeron: 'Cause I wanna define me.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I think this is a very, very refreshing approach.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I think that
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: too many of us at times, and I've been included in this group,
12:07
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: is that when you're told you can't do it as a blind person,
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: you say, "Oh, okay, fine. I'm gone."
12:13
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: But then you learn that in order to help secure the future of our kids,
12:18
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: you really have to say, "No, I'm not going anywhere.
12:21
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I wanna do it, and I'm going to do it." And you have to stick it out.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You don't have a choice if you really want to help improve the lives of others,
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: right?
12:33
Diane Bergeron: I've said to people when I talk about advocacy,
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Diane Bergeron: people say, "Oh, this happens to me. I got refused with my dog here.
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Diane Bergeron: I didn't get that job," or whatever.
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Diane Bergeron: And I always say, "Look, here's the thing about advocacy.
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Diane Bergeron: Advocacy is you changing a situation not for yourself alone."
12:54
Diane Bergeron: Every time you create awareness,
12:58
Diane Bergeron: get into an advocacy situation,
13:01
Diane Bergeron: yes, you may win
13:05
Diane Bergeron: over a job or whatever it is. But in the process of doing that,
13:10
Diane Bergeron: you've educated several people along the way.
13:14
Diane Bergeron: And so it's not just about you because the attitude is gonna then carry on to the
13:19
Diane Bergeron: next person. I also have said there is nothing wrong with saying,
13:24
Diane Bergeron: "Today is not my day," right?
13:27
Diane Bergeron: 'Cause I believe when you have to advocate constantly,
13:31
Diane Bergeron: and you know this, you wake up in the morning, you go to bed at night.
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Diane Bergeron: Between those two situations,
13:36
Diane Bergeron: you're advocating pretty much all day long [laughs] as a blind person.
13:40
Diane Bergeron: Right? You can't take them on. Sometimes you have to just go,
13:45
Diane Bergeron: "Is this the hill I wanna die on today? And if this is not the one,
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Diane Bergeron: then
13:51
Diane Bergeron: maybe I just need to take a rest and step back."
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Diane Bergeron: So there's no shame in not doing it. But when you do it,
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Diane Bergeron: when you actually create awareness and do the advocacy,
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Diane Bergeron: it is changing a system for the next person and the next person and the next
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Diane Bergeron: person, and hopefully
14:10
Diane Bergeron: the children that come behind us, right?
14:14
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I like that philosophy, today is not my day.
14:18
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And you're not always gonna go out there and win every single advocacy initiative.
14:24
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You're not, right? You're gonna have days when, oh my gosh,
14:28
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: well, I did my best. It's not my day today.
14:31
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Move on. And then you have those days when you're totally elated,
14:35
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: excited, exuberated, right? So it's a mixture of everything,
14:40
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: and then people just have to get used to that.
14:43
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Advocacy is a two-way street, right?
14:50
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You hold three degrees, Dr. B,
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: from MacEwan University.
14:58
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And a Master of Arts in Leadership from the Royal
15:04
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Roads University.
15:07
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And last time you told us that as a single mother facing shift
15:13
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: work, childcare, and transportation barriers,
15:18
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: you decided to go back to school.
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: What did each return to the classroom give you,
15:28
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: and what would you say to adults living with sight loss who
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Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: wonder whether it is too late to go back to school?
15:40
Diane Bergeron: So
15:43
Diane Bergeron: the first time I went back,
15:45
Diane Bergeron: I got my—what is now known as Disability and Community Studies.
15:49
Diane Bergeron: At the time it was Rehabilitation Practitioner program.
15:54
Diane Bergeron: And I got that, and I started working in the rehabilitation field.
16:00
Diane Bergeron: And then it got to the point, I mean, that is a big shift work thing.
16:03
Diane Bergeron: You gotta work night shifts and all sorts of things.
16:06
Diane Bergeron: And when I had my daughter and
16:10
Diane Bergeron: became a single mom, it was, how do I get
16:14
Diane Bergeron: babysitters to do shift work? And then what do I...
16:18
Diane Bergeron: The bus only runs so many hours, and
16:21
Diane Bergeron: it was so complicated. And so I thought, "Well, if I can stay in this field,
16:26
Diane Bergeron: but I need to become management." So I went back to school.
16:29
Diane Bergeron: I got my Management Studies diploma,
16:32
Diane Bergeron: and that allowed me to get a job working at the time at the City of Edmonton in
16:36
Diane Bergeron: policy development,
16:39
Diane Bergeron: coordinating the disability advisory group to the city council.
16:44
Diane Bergeron: Moved from there to a bigger jurisdiction, which was the province.
16:49
Diane Bergeron: And
16:51
Diane Bergeron: so in that position, eventually I wanted to become a manager,
16:57
Diane Bergeron: but I only had two diplomas. I didn't have a degree,
16:59
Diane Bergeron: so I had to go back to school to get
17:02
Diane Bergeron: a degree.
17:05
Diane Bergeron: And so I got my Bachelor of Human Services Administration
17:11
Diane Bergeron: degree
17:12
Diane Bergeron: and was very happy working in the position.
17:15
Diane Bergeron: And then
17:17
Diane Bergeron: my director left, and
17:21
Diane Bergeron: for six month I basically ran the whole thing, and I was the acting director.
17:26
Diane Bergeron: I applied for the job, and somebody else got it.
17:30
Diane Bergeron: I mean, they had all of the qualifications,
17:33
Diane Bergeron: but the one thing that she had that I didn't have was a master's.
17:37
Diane Bergeron: And so I went back to school to get my master's so I could advance
17:43
Diane Bergeron: in that. And
17:45
Diane Bergeron: funny enough, I got my master's,
17:49
Diane Bergeron: and then the person that was in that position, it was a couple years later,
17:54
Diane Bergeron: they ended up leaving, and they asked me to be the acting director again.
18:00
Diane Bergeron: And they were working on giving me that position when CNIB called
18:05
Diane Bergeron: and made me an offer that I couldn't refuse.
18:09
Diane Bergeron: So I told them, I said, "I'm leaving the government.
18:14
Diane Bergeron: But don't worry, I'll be back,
18:15
Diane Bergeron: 'cause now I'm gonna be on the other side of the table."
18:17
Diane Bergeron: [laughs] And they were like, "Oh, no, she knows all the secrets."
18:21
Diane Bergeron: [laughs]
18:22
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah, she's gonna trade them off, isn't she? Oh, wow.
18:28
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Wow. Remarkable.
18:31
Diane Bergeron: So, but I think the piece that you asked, about what would I say to somebody,
18:38
Diane Bergeron: is it too old—one is too old to go back to school.
18:44
Diane Bergeron: I don't think you're ever too old to go back to school.
18:47
Diane Bergeron: If you want to learn something,
18:49
Diane Bergeron: if you've got a reason like I did in my career to advance in my career,
18:53
Diane Bergeron: that's one thing.
18:54
Diane Bergeron: But the other piece of it is if you wanna just learn something new,
18:59
Diane Bergeron: you don't even have to go back to school to get a degree.
19:02
Diane Bergeron: You can go back and audit classes. You can take classes.
19:06
Diane Bergeron: There's all sorts of things that you can do.
19:09
Diane Bergeron: And if it's not school, maybe school isn't your thing,
19:13
Diane Bergeron: but I do think that learning is a lifelong...
19:17
Diane Bergeron: It should be a lifelong activity for people. We should always be developing and
19:24
Diane Bergeron: learning something.
19:26
Diane Bergeron: I have in the last couple of years picked up guitar.
19:31
Diane Bergeron: And [laughs] trying to learn how to play guitar.
19:35
Diane Bergeron: And it's not easy.
19:37
Diane Bergeron: But I love it. It's relaxing for me, and it's keeping my brain
19:44
Diane Bergeron: functioning, and I just love the learning. So I think if you love the learning,
19:49
Diane Bergeron: you should never stop, no matter which level of learning it is.
19:54
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I agree. So now you're the musical doctor, right?
19:58
Diane Bergeron: [laughs] Yeah, you can call me Dr. Guitar,
20:03
Diane Bergeron: [laughs] Dr. Music. I don't know.
20:05
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, my gosh. No, I agree with you there.
20:09
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I do.
20:10
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So when we spoke last October,
20:14
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: you were leading CNIB's new International Partnerships
20:20
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Department. But today,
20:23
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: you serve as Head of Global Strategies and
20:29
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Senior Vice President of Public Affairs.
20:34
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: What has changed in your role over the past year,
20:39
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: and how does global
20:43
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: lens and the public affairs lens come together in your
20:49
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: work for Canadians who are blind, partially sighted,
20:54
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: or deaf-blind?
20:57
Diane Bergeron: So
20:59
Diane Bergeron: in the International Partnerships Department,
21:02
Diane Bergeron: I was asked to take that on because I had always, since I've been at CNIB,
21:06
Diane Bergeron: pretty much the whole time been doing international work off the side of my desk
21:10
Diane Bergeron: while doing other things.
21:12
Diane Bergeron: And when
21:16
Diane Bergeron: Angela Bonfanti became the president and CEO for CNIB,
21:21
Diane Bergeron: she asked me to
21:24
Diane Bergeron: create this new department that was gonna focus on international work and looking at
21:30
Diane Bergeron: how do we build
21:32
Diane Bergeron: cooperation with sister organizations.
21:35
Diane Bergeron: And so I started with just that piece, and then after a little bit of time,
21:43
Diane Bergeron: we realized that so much of the international work that I was doing
21:49
Diane Bergeron: was advocacy work.
21:52
Diane Bergeron: And it also coincided with government relations work.
21:58
Diane Bergeron: And so we decided to pull it all into one.
22:01
Diane Bergeron: So
22:03
Diane Bergeron: we took the government relations department and the advocacy department and
22:07
Diane Bergeron: put them all into the global strategies and public affairs
22:13
Diane Bergeron: area. So
22:15
Diane Bergeron: it's been fascinating for me because there's so many times that we're talking
22:20
Diane Bergeron: about advocacy that goes beyond our borders,
22:24
Diane Bergeron: and so it just brings it all together. And I really enjoy...
22:27
Diane Bergeron: I mean, you know me. I love the advocacy work. I like the GR work.
22:33
Diane Bergeron: And I just really get excited when I can bring all of those and utilize them in
22:38
Diane Bergeron: different ways.
22:42
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I think the first time we met was when we were both on the Elections Canada advisory
22:47
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: committee many years ago.
22:49
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And we know we've crossed paths since then in several different areas,
22:54
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: and I think it takes a special person to be able to
23:00
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: interact in all of these different roles. I mean,
23:03
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: you're not just stuck in one corner.
23:05
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You're going from corner to corner to corner, and it must be tiring,
23:09
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: but at the same time very rewarding and very exciting,
23:13
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: isn't it?
23:15
Diane Bergeron: It is.
23:15
Diane Bergeron: And I've always said the thing that I like about my job is that there's so many
23:21
Diane Bergeron: different facets to it. I can wake up in the morning and have a meeting,
23:27
Diane Bergeron: what I consider the boring meetings,
23:30
Diane Bergeron: the ones where you sit down and you've gotta talk about budgets and forecasts and
23:35
Diane Bergeron: all of those. And I can have that meeting and go, "Okay,
23:37
Diane Bergeron: this is..." You
23:39
Diane Bergeron: gotta have those meetings, right?
23:41
Diane Bergeron: But then I get to go from there to talk to somebody in government about the
23:46
Diane Bergeron: excitement of one of our programs or
23:50
Diane Bergeron: work with
23:52
Diane Bergeron: an international partner where I get to look at how can we work together on a
23:58
Diane Bergeron: particular project. And then the next day I'm off doing something else.
24:04
Diane Bergeron: There's always something new and exciting and interesting,
24:07
Diane Bergeron: and you learn so much from all of these different interactions.
24:12
Diane Bergeron: And one of the things that always gets me going is when I'm meet with somebody in
24:17
Diane Bergeron: one scenario and go, "Wait a minute."
24:19
Diane Bergeron: I think that I should introduce you to this person over here in this other part
24:24
Diane Bergeron: of my work because they've got a similar project working,
24:27
Diane Bergeron: and it just... For me, being a connector like that,
24:32
Diane Bergeron: I really love to do that. And so my job gives me that opportunity to just...
24:37
Diane Bergeron: Every day is new, and I get to introduce a lot of people to a lot of people,
24:42
Diane Bergeron: and I get to meet a lot of people. It's fun.
24:45
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Where do you get the energy?
24:49
Diane Bergeron: Well, I'm getting older, so I don't have as much as I used to.
24:51
Diane Bergeron: [laughs]
24:56
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Wow.
24:58
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I was amazed to learn that you completed an Ironman in
25:04
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: 2017. What drew you to that challenge?
25:10
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: How did you train and race as a blind athlete?
25:14
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And what did crossing that finish line teach you that
25:20
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: still carries you into your leadership today?
25:27
Diane Bergeron: So when I went to Royal Roads University,
25:30
Diane Bergeron: we did these personality tests, Myers-Briggs and so on,
25:35
Diane Bergeron: and one of the things that they said was that I don't trust people very much.
25:41
Diane Bergeron: And I was like, "I trust a dog to get me all over the place.
25:44
Diane Bergeron: What do you mean I don't trust well?"
25:47
Diane Bergeron: I trust—
25:48
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Well, yes. What is this?
25:49
Diane Bergeron: Marston. And they said, "Yes,
25:50
Diane Bergeron: but you don't trust people with your fears and your vulnerabilities."
25:55
Diane Bergeron: And I said, "Oh, okay. Well, that might be true."
25:58
Diane Bergeron: So
25:59
Diane Bergeron: the idea was that you would learn something about yourself,
26:02
Diane Bergeron: and then you would create an opportunity to try and make change.
26:05
Diane Bergeron: So I thought, well,
26:07
Diane Bergeron: what is something that I'm really vulnerable with?
26:09
Diane Bergeron: And so I decided that I'm terrified of heights.
26:12
Diane Bergeron: So I thought I'll trust somebody to help me jump out of a plane.
26:17
Diane Bergeron: And so I did a tandem jump from, like, 12,500 feet.
26:22
Diane Bergeron: And it was amazing. I highly recommend it, Donna. I do.
26:26
Diane Bergeron: It was amazing.
26:26
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: No, leave me alone. [laughs] Okay, go on.
26:31
Diane Bergeron: My friends were like, "Why are you jumping out of a perfectly serviceable aircraft?"
26:35
Diane Bergeron: And it was amazing. But when I did it, I thought, this is kinda fun,
26:39
Diane Bergeron: just doing challenges.
26:40
Diane Bergeron: And so the next year there was a fundraiser for somebody or other,
26:43
Diane Bergeron: and I drove a race car. And I always put these up on YouTube,
26:48
Diane Bergeron: like, videos of these things. And then the year after that,
26:51
Diane Bergeron: I did the
26:52
Diane Bergeron: Drop Zone. So I rappelled down the side of a 29-story building.
26:58
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: What? Geez.
26:59
Diane Bergeron: Yeah, that was for Easter Seals, I think it was.
27:02
Diane Bergeron: It was the—they call it the Drop Zone.
27:05
Diane Bergeron: You dress as a superhero, and you come down the side of the building.
27:08
Diane Bergeron: Anyways, so I did that. A little terrifying.
27:12
Diane Bergeron: And then I was like, I don't know what else to do
27:16
Diane Bergeron: 'cause my friends are like, "What are you gonna do next year?"
27:19
Diane Bergeron: And I'm like, "I don't know." And my friend said,
27:21
Diane Bergeron: "I think you should do a triathlon."
27:25
Diane Bergeron: And I'm like, "Have you seen me? I'm a couch potato.
27:27
Diane Bergeron: What are you talking about?" I'm 47 years old at the time.
27:30
Diane Bergeron: And they said, "Well, you have six months to train.
27:32
Diane Bergeron: We can do this triathlon. You just do a small one."
27:35
Diane Bergeron: They call it Tri a Tri. It's just small.
27:38
Diane Bergeron: And I said, "Oh, no. If I'm gonna do a challenge, it's gonna be a big one."
27:41
Diane Bergeron: And the
27:43
Diane Bergeron: event that we chose,
27:44
Diane Bergeron: the biggest race they had at the time was what's called an Olympic distance,
27:49
Diane Bergeron: which I think is a 1,500-meter swim,
27:55
Diane Bergeron: 40K bike ride, and a 10-kilometer run.
28:02
Diane Bergeron: And so I trained for it. I borrowed a tandem that I think was put together
28:08
Diane Bergeron: in the '20s,
28:11
Diane Bergeron: like 1920s. Honestly, it was piecemeal.
28:14
Diane Bergeron: Not everything matched on it.
28:16
Diane Bergeron: But I did this race, and I didn't come in the... I came in second to last.
28:21
Diane Bergeron: I was just ahead of the old lady with the limp.
28:23
Diane Bergeron: [laughs] But I crossed the finish line.
28:27
Diane Bergeron: And I was like, "This is great." I did this.
28:30
Diane Bergeron: This is my challenge for this year. And then my friend said,
28:33
Diane Bergeron: "Donna, I think you could do an Iron..." a half.
28:36
Diane Bergeron: Well, she said a half. "I think you could do a half Ironman."
28:39
Diane Bergeron: And I said, "Yeah, I don't wanna talk to you for at least a month,"
28:41
Diane Bergeron: 'cause I was hurting. And
28:45
Diane Bergeron: then a month later I thought, I'd like to do,
28:48
Diane Bergeron: not a half Ironman, I'd like to do a full Ironman when I turn 50.
28:53
Diane Bergeron: And we're talking a couple years away, and I could train for it.
28:57
Diane Bergeron: So I did a couple of half Ironmans to train and to be prepared.
29:01
Diane Bergeron: And then in
29:03
Diane Bergeron: the year that I turned 50,
29:05
Diane Bergeron: I
29:08
Diane Bergeron: went to Mont Tremblant Ironman, and I didn't finish.
29:14
Diane Bergeron: I got through the swim, the bike,
29:17
Diane Bergeron: and halfway through the run, and I had a heat stroke so bad.
29:21
Diane Bergeron: It was 40 degrees with the heat index.
29:24
Diane Bergeron: I had heat stroke so bad I had to step off the course.
29:31
Diane Bergeron: And I sent a message to my friends. I was like, "Oh,
29:34
Diane Bergeron: I didn't make it, and I'm sorry if I disappointed anybody."
29:37
Diane Bergeron: And one of my friends came back [laughs] and said, "Let's put this in perspective.
29:42
Diane Bergeron: You just swam four kilometers, rode a bike in the mountains for 180 kilometers,
29:48
Diane Bergeron: and ran 21 kilometers at 50 years old and blind while the rest of us sat and watched
29:54
Diane Bergeron: you do it."
29:54
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: [laughs] Right. I agree.
29:58
Diane Bergeron: And that hit me. I went, okay, hang on a second.
30:01
Diane Bergeron: Then again, we get to failure, right?
30:04
Diane Bergeron: I saw that as a failure. I had failed because I didn't cross the finish line.
30:09
Diane Bergeron: Then I went, wait a minute,
30:11
Diane Bergeron: I actually succeeded. I didn't cross the finish line,
30:14
Diane Bergeron: but I had gone further than I had ever gone in my life,
30:18
Diane Bergeron: and only a couple of years before I was a couch potato.
30:22
Diane Bergeron: So I said, "No, this is not a failure. This is me learning."
30:27
Diane Bergeron: And I
30:29
Diane Bergeron: said to the race director who I spoke to right after that,
30:32
Diane Bergeron: I said, "I'm coming back in two years."
30:36
Diane Bergeron: And two years later, at 52, I went back.
30:40
Diane Bergeron: And I redid the exact same race, and
30:47
Diane Bergeron: I crossed the finish line,
30:49
Diane Bergeron: and I remember hugging my guide,
30:54
Diane Bergeron: and the race director himself went to put the medal on me,
30:58
Diane Bergeron: and he was crying 'cause he was so happy that I crossed the finish line.
31:02
Diane Bergeron: And
31:03
Diane Bergeron: when that happened, as soon as they put that medal around my neck,
31:06
Diane Bergeron: I was like, "Wow, I've just challenged myself, and I managed to do this."
31:12
Diane Bergeron: But,
31:18
Diane Bergeron: in my opinion, the finish line is just the beginning.
31:22
Diane Bergeron: Because
31:24
Diane Bergeron: yes, you've done this,
31:26
Diane Bergeron: but what you've learned in the process is about how to be disciplined
31:32
Diane Bergeron: in your training.
31:33
Diane Bergeron: You learn about communication because when you're swimming,
31:37
Diane Bergeron: and you can't see where you're going, and you're tied to somebody,
31:40
Diane Bergeron: they've gotta communicate by tapping you,
31:42
Diane Bergeron: so you have to learn a different form of communication in the water,
31:45
Diane Bergeron: so you can't hear them with your ears underwater.
31:48
Diane Bergeron: When you're on the tandem,
31:49
Diane Bergeron: you have to learn how to be coordinated and work together.
31:54
Diane Bergeron: And sometimes you have to put more power in the pedals,
31:57
Diane Bergeron: but the other person has to be ready 'cause you gotta keep the bike balanced.
32:00
Diane Bergeron: And so there's a piece there, you have to learn how to work together as a team.
32:06
Diane Bergeron: And then when you're on the run, again,
32:10
Diane Bergeron: you're two people running, but one is guiding,
32:13
Diane Bergeron: and you've got to do your part in that process.
32:18
Diane Bergeron: So you have to have your strategy in place because if you don't strategize it ahead,
32:23
Diane Bergeron: you'll hit the wall, and you
32:26
Diane Bergeron: have to be prepared for
32:29
Diane Bergeron: anything that could happen.
32:32
Diane Bergeron: And so
32:34
Diane Bergeron: the lessons from doing the Ironman really helped me to develop
32:40
Diane Bergeron: into my leadership skills as well because of the fact that it reminds me,
32:44
Diane Bergeron: when you're in a leadership role, you need to communicate.
32:48
Diane Bergeron: You need to work as a team.
32:51
Diane Bergeron: You need to have balance. You need to strategize together.
32:56
Diane Bergeron: And then when you cross the finish line of whatever it is,
32:59
Diane Bergeron: you need to celebrate together.
33:03
Diane Bergeron: And to me, that's any project I've ever worked on ever since,
33:07
Diane Bergeron: that's how I do it.
33:10
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I think that's a wonderful philosophy.
33:12
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I think more of us need to develop this type of philosophy in order to achieve
33:18
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: more. It doesn't come like that. It's not gonna come like that.
33:23
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Hard work. And believing in yourself as well.
33:27
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right?
33:28
Diane Bergeron: And learning from the failure, right?
33:31
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah.
33:32
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You gotta fail in order to succeed. You cannot keep succeeding all the time,
33:36
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: meaning you haven't tried hard enough, as you said before.
33:39
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Right?
33:41
Diane Bergeron: Yes.
33:42
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Wow.
33:44
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Our listeners met Lucy, including me,
33:48
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: your sock-stealing guide dog, in our first conversation.
33:55
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And you were working with Carla, a beautiful golden retriever.
34:00
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Today, you are paired or partnered with a Lady,
34:05
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: a black Labrador retriever.
34:09
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: What is it like to move from one guide to the next,
34:14
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: and how has each partnership shaped you differently?
34:19
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And what do you wish people understood about the emotional
34:25
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: side of working with and eventually retiring a guide
34:30
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: dog?
34:31
Diane Bergeron: [laughs] Lucy definitely was
34:37
Diane Bergeron: a fun dog. I have to admit [laughs] she was also a challenge.
34:41
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yes, she was. Aw.
34:43
Diane Bergeron: I swear to God, I never knew where my socks were.
34:47
Diane Bergeron: But
34:49
Diane Bergeron: each dog has their own personality and their own skillsets,
34:54
Diane Bergeron: right? And when you're following a dog, you've got a dog,
34:58
Diane Bergeron: you have the harness in your hand, and you're giving the dog the instructions.
35:01
Diane Bergeron: I mean, it's a partnership, right? And
35:09
Diane Bergeron: I often say it's kind of like dancing.
35:12
Diane Bergeron: Because you've got somebody who's leading and somebody who's following,
35:15
Diane Bergeron: but often the person who's following is actually the one who picked the song,
35:20
Diane Bergeron: right?
35:22
Diane Bergeron: So
35:25
Diane Bergeron: I always say
35:27
Diane Bergeron: when I'm working a guide dog, my dog may be guiding me,
35:33
Diane Bergeron: but I'm the one giving the dog the information it needs.
35:36
Diane Bergeron: So I have to support my dog just as much as my dog supports me.
35:40
Diane Bergeron: Because they're not GPS systems. I can't just say, "Take me to this address,"
35:44
Diane Bergeron: right? You have to go step by step along the way.
35:48
Diane Bergeron: When you go from one dog to the next, you have to retire a dog,
35:52
Diane Bergeron: or you lose—a dog passes or whatever—the hardest
35:58
Diane Bergeron: part for me is that
36:00
Diane Bergeron: the relationship that you have with that dog, even though it's your dog,
36:04
Diane Bergeron: and when you're at home, it's your pet.
36:09
Diane Bergeron: But there's a partnership. It's like it's a piece of you.
36:13
Diane Bergeron: And so when you stop working one dog,
36:16
Diane Bergeron: you've spent years building up trust and bond,
36:22
Diane Bergeron: because you have to trust each other. And so that trust is so strong between you,
36:26
Diane Bergeron: and the bond is so strong, when you suddenly have to say,
36:29
Diane Bergeron: "Okay, you can't work anymore," because
36:34
Diane Bergeron: you're getting too old. You're maybe losing your sight.
36:36
Diane Bergeron: You've got some medical issues, so whatever the case may be.
36:41
Diane Bergeron: And you need to now bring a new dog into this situation.
36:49
Diane Bergeron: It's not a switch. You can't switch trust like a light switch.
36:55
Diane Bergeron: It takes you time to move that trust and bond from one dog to another.
37:01
Diane Bergeron: And you never lose it for your previous dog. You just have to gain it
37:07
Diane Bergeron: with the new dog, and that takes time.
37:09
Diane Bergeron: They usually say six months to a year before you and your dog are a really good
37:12
Diane Bergeron: working team, and the trust is built up to that extent,
37:16
Diane Bergeron: because you have to do it.
37:20
Diane Bergeron: And
37:21
Diane Bergeron: each dog is so different.
37:25
Diane Bergeron: Even the breeds.
37:26
Diane Bergeron: I will say working a shepherd is like working with a soldier because you say,
37:31
Diane Bergeron: "Forward," and, "Forward, find the curb," and the shepherd says,
37:35
Diane Bergeron: "Affirmative. I see it. Come,"
37:39
Diane Bergeron: and marches to the corner and stops dead
37:43
Diane Bergeron: and waits for the next instruction. That's a
37:46
Diane Bergeron: shepherd. When you work a lab
37:50
Diane Bergeron: and you say, "Forward, find the curb," the dog goes,
37:53
Diane Bergeron: "I see it. Come with me. Oh my God, it's so exciting.
37:56
Diane Bergeron: Let's go find this curb. Look, it's right here. Aren't I a good dog?"
38:00
Diane Bergeron: Right? Wiggles the whole way there, right?
38:02
Diane Bergeron: [laughs] Very different persona.
38:05
Diane Bergeron: And then a golden retriever, you say, "Forward, find the curb,"
38:09
Diane Bergeron: and the dog says, "I see it. Please join me on this journey.
38:13
Diane Bergeron: And we will glide to the corner.
38:16
Diane Bergeron: And when we stop at the corner,
38:18
Diane Bergeron: we must first wait for everybody to admire me before we move on to the next."
38:22
Diane Bergeron: [laughs] That's a golden. They love themselves.
38:27
Diane Bergeron: And so, well, they should. They're so beautiful.
38:29
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yes, they are.
38:30
Diane Bergeron: So working each dog, each different,
38:32
Diane Bergeron: even if you've got two golden retrievers that you're working.
38:34
Diane Bergeron: I mean, Lucy was a golden, Carla was a golden.
38:37
Diane Bergeron: They still have different personalities.
38:39
Diane Bergeron: They communicate differently through the harness. They have different strengths.
38:43
Diane Bergeron: The one thing that I will say, in this last experience was very difficult.
38:51
Diane Bergeron: I've had labs, I've had very good dogs, but I've always loved goldens.
38:55
Diane Bergeron: And
38:57
Diane Bergeron: when they gave me Natie as a black lab and matched me with her,
39:03
Diane Bergeron: I was really very happy that I didn't have a golden retriever.
39:08
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, why?
39:10
Diane Bergeron: Because
39:12
Diane Bergeron: Carla passed away very suddenly.
39:17
Diane Bergeron: She ended up having a brain tumor.
39:23
Diane Bergeron: Her first seizure was June 25th, and she was gone by July 7th.
39:28
Diane Bergeron: So less than two weeks.
39:31
Diane Bergeron: And
39:33
Diane Bergeron: I suddenly for the first time in 42 years didn't have a guide dog.
39:38
Diane Bergeron: And
39:39
Diane Bergeron: I honestly felt like I was blind again. I lost my independence.
39:44
Diane Bergeron: I
39:45
Diane Bergeron: felt like
39:46
Diane Bergeron: I just couldn't function. And because not only did
39:51
Diane Bergeron: I not have a working dog, I had lost a piece of me.
39:55
Diane Bergeron: It was like something was amputated off of me,
39:59
Diane Bergeron: and it was one of the hardest things I've ever gone through.
40:03
Diane Bergeron: And when they gave me Natie just back in
40:08
Diane Bergeron: September, I honestly was so thankful that it wasn't a golden,
40:12
Diane Bergeron: 'cause I thought...
40:15
Diane Bergeron: Carla was such an amazing guide dog, like she was exceptional.
40:19
Diane Bergeron: And I thought if I had another golden, I probably would compare,
40:25
Diane Bergeron: even though I know I shouldn't.
40:27
Diane Bergeron: I probably would be comparing,
40:30
Diane Bergeron: "Oh, my other golden didn't do that," or, "Carla never did that,"
40:33
Diane Bergeron: or whatever. Having a completely different breed and color of dog,
40:38
Diane Bergeron: I think helps me to
40:41
Diane Bergeron: see Natie as a different dog and not do the comparisons.
40:45
Diane Bergeron: Although I will tell you that I am exceptionally impressed with Natie.
40:49
Diane Bergeron: She's only 22 months old, but boy, that dog is good.
40:51
Diane Bergeron: She's
40:53
Diane Bergeron: an exceptional guide as well.
40:56
Diane Bergeron: But
40:58
Diane Bergeron: I thought that it would be too hard to have another one just like Carla after
41:02
Diane Bergeron: going through such a traumatic situation.
41:05
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I just learned something new.
41:06
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I did not know that the different personalities had to do with like the
41:10
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: colors of the dog, like the retriever, the lab.
41:13
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And which was the other one? Oh, the shepherd.
41:15
Diane Bergeron: Yeah. Well, I mean, I've worked all three over my 42 years,
41:19
Diane Bergeron: and
41:21
Diane Bergeron: obviously there's gonna be the outliers,
41:23
Diane Bergeron: but generally that's the impression I have of them.
41:27
Diane Bergeron: It's just a different type of working dog. Yeah.
41:31
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Wow.
41:33
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: As you know, my new podcast, Curb to Cabin Canada,
41:39
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: follows blind and low vision travelers from the curb outside the
41:45
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: terminal to their seat in the cabin.
41:49
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You travel extensively for your work,
41:54
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: so walk our listeners through a typical journey for you as a blind
42:00
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: traveler. Where does it work well?
42:04
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Where does it break down?
42:07
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: What changes when your guide dog travels with you,
42:11
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: and have you ever been offered a wheelchair when what you
42:17
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: needed was just a sighted guide?
42:23
Diane Bergeron: Wow. So traveling is always an adventure, and
42:28
Diane Bergeron: this is gonna go back to that resilience thing.
42:32
Diane Bergeron: Anytime anybody travels,
42:34
Diane Bergeron: you have to be resilient because you never know what's gonna happen along the way.
42:37
Diane Bergeron: There's gonna be changes at gates and delays and
42:41
Diane Bergeron: cancellations and, oh, your luggage is missing,
42:43
Diane Bergeron: and there's all sorts of things that go
42:46
Diane Bergeron: wrong when you're traveling.
42:48
Diane Bergeron: My journey, I believe, starts as I'm booking my...
42:51
Diane Bergeron: Well, it starts before I book my flight.
42:57
Diane Bergeron: Because if you're going to travel for work,
42:59
Diane Bergeron: you're gonna end up going someplace that may not be the place that you would
43:02
Diane Bergeron: normally go. So
43:07
Diane Bergeron: if it's a country or a place where the dog can go with me,
43:14
Diane Bergeron: and it would be all right for the dog to go,
43:18
Diane Bergeron: I usually take the dog.
43:22
Diane Bergeron: There are places that I will not take the dog, even if I'm allowed to take it.
43:28
Diane Bergeron: And
43:33
Diane Bergeron: it depends on the quarantine rules in the country.
43:37
Diane Bergeron: It depends on
43:40
Diane Bergeron: what I'm going to be facing when I'm there.
43:44
Diane Bergeron: I was in Costa Rica this year on vacation.
43:46
Diane Bergeron: I wouldn't take my dog to Costa Rica because Carla was with me then.
43:50
Diane Bergeron: She's a long-haired golden retriever, and it's 35 degrees,
43:55
Diane Bergeron: and I can't take her outside.
43:59
Diane Bergeron: She'd heatstroke. So she'd spend all her time inside,
44:03
Diane Bergeron: and I couldn't just leave her behind, so I'm not gonna take a dog to that.
44:08
Diane Bergeron: That's my choice. Other people will do what they do,
44:10
Diane Bergeron: but that's my choice.
44:12
Diane Bergeron: Or I might be going to a country where they have a lot of stray animals,
44:17
Diane Bergeron: and it's not safe for my dog to be there.
44:21
Diane Bergeron: So step one is determining is this a trip with a dog or without a dog?
44:29
Diane Bergeron: Once that is determined and I figure out what I need to do,
44:33
Diane Bergeron: then it's booking the flights that is going to coordinate.
44:36
Diane Bergeron: If I'm traveling with the dog,
44:37
Diane Bergeron: I have to book flights where if there's a layover somewhere that I can get the dog
44:41
Diane Bergeron: to the bathroom.
44:43
Diane Bergeron: A lot of airports in Canada have
44:47
Diane Bergeron: dog relief areas within secured areas, which is wonderful,
44:50
Diane Bergeron: but they don't have a lot of that in, say, Europe.
44:53
Diane Bergeron: And so you have to leave the airport, go find a place for your dog to relieve,
44:57
Diane Bergeron: and then go back through security to get back into,
45:01
Diane Bergeron: to catch the next flight. So your timing between flights has to be dependent on
45:07
Diane Bergeron: where you can get a dog to the bathroom.
45:13
Diane Bergeron: And I would say so determining that means I have to determine which airlines.
45:18
Diane Bergeron: I have my preferred airlines
45:23
Diane Bergeron: because I've had better success with them than others and get better service.
45:34
Diane Bergeron: It can vary in different airports.
45:39
Diane Bergeron: Certainly with different airlines, the service can vary.
45:42
Diane Bergeron: Some people are awesome with an airline.
45:44
Diane Bergeron: Some people don't know what to do with you and guide you like you're a package.
45:48
Diane Bergeron: [laughs] Drag you around like you're a suitcase.
45:54
Diane Bergeron: And so I think, again, it goes back to communications.
45:57
Diane Bergeron: I always communicate with the airlines. I'm coming with a guide dog,
46:00
Diane Bergeron: or I'm coming
46:02
Diane Bergeron: with a cane, I'm gonna need passenger assistance.
46:05
Diane Bergeron: I'm traveling in this manner, whatever. This is the supports I'm gonna need.
46:09
Diane Bergeron: So you communicate that at the beginning.
46:11
Diane Bergeron: I reaffirm it before I leave on the trip to make sure that they've remembered that
46:15
Diane Bergeron: I'm coming. [laughs] They don't forget.
46:19
Diane Bergeron: And then obviously, if you're dealing with sighted guides through airports and stuff,
46:24
Diane Bergeron: you're dealing with people sometimes who just don't have the slightest clue how to
46:29
Diane Bergeron: guide you, and you've gotta figure that out,
46:31
Diane Bergeron: and it's hard to trust somebody when they're
46:35
Diane Bergeron: bumping you into things, and you're trying to communicate that,
46:39
Diane Bergeron: "Please don't smash me into that barrier again."
46:45
Diane Bergeron: Going through security,
46:48
Diane Bergeron: again, with the dog,
46:49
Diane Bergeron: there's a little song and dance you have to go through with that.
46:54
Diane Bergeron: And so there's challenges with the dog.
46:57
Diane Bergeron: I would say my biggest challenge with the dog and traveling is that domestic
47:02
Diane Bergeron: regulations... See, Canadian Transportation Agency has regulations,
47:07
Diane Bergeron: and
47:08
Diane Bergeron: if you are on a domestic flight within Canada, they are required to provide you
47:14
Diane Bergeron: enough space for you and your dog,
47:16
Diane Bergeron: so that typically means blocking the seat next to you so that there's enough space
47:21
Diane Bergeron: for your dog to lay down and not be squished.
47:24
Diane Bergeron: However, the minute you cross a border, that rule changes,
47:27
Diane Bergeron: and they no longer have to provide you with that extra space.
47:31
Diane Bergeron: So I'm often traveling to countries where I'm in a plane for eight hours,
47:38
Diane Bergeron: and my dog has to spend that full eight hours curled up underneath the seat in
47:42
Diane Bergeron: front of me like hand luggage,
47:45
Diane Bergeron: and I just think that that's the craziest thing ever.
47:50
Diane Bergeron: If I'm going from
47:53
Diane Bergeron: Ottawa to Toronto, I get the extra seat, which is...
47:56
Diane Bergeron: It's an hour flight. It's not a big deal. If I'm going to
48:00
Diane Bergeron: Germany, it's an eight-hour flight. It's so far,
48:03
Diane Bergeron: and they don't give you the extra seat, and they always say to me the same thing.
48:07
Diane Bergeron: "Oh, it's because you're going across the border,
48:09
Diane Bergeron: so then you go to Department of Transportation rules somewhere else,
48:12
Diane Bergeron: and
48:14
Diane Bergeron: they say that you don't get the extra seat."
48:17
Diane Bergeron: And I always tell the airlines, "You keep telling me it's because of the DOT rules.
48:22
Diane Bergeron: In fact,
48:22
Diane Bergeron: the DOT rules say you may charge for the extra seat or for an extra
48:28
Diane Bergeron: space, but you are not required to give a person the extra space."
48:34
Diane Bergeron: And it's the airline's policy that says they won't give me that extra space.
48:41
Diane Bergeron: So I've always said, "Stop saying that you can't.
48:45
Diane Bergeron: It's not that you can't. You can. You just choose not to."
48:51
Diane Bergeron: So
48:54
Diane Bergeron: for me, that's a bit of an issue. Yeah, that's a big problem.
48:57
Diane Bergeron: That means my dog is traveling all squished up in a long flight,
49:00
Diane Bergeron: and they shouldn't have to.
49:03
Diane Bergeron: And then of course preparing to go to another country,
49:05
Diane Bergeron: depending on what the rules are for quarantines. You have to
49:10
Diane Bergeron: get medical health records done.
49:12
Diane Bergeron: Sometimes you have to do titer tests six months in advance,
49:16
Diane Bergeron: depending on the country. Sometimes you have to have certain,
49:19
Diane Bergeron: say, tapeworm treatments done in a very specific timeframe,
49:23
Diane Bergeron: like no more than 120 hours before you arrive in the country,
49:27
Diane Bergeron: but
49:29
Diane Bergeron: it has to be more than 48 hours before you arrive in the country.
49:32
Diane Bergeron: So you've got a certain window that you have to see the vet to get this test done
49:36
Diane Bergeron: and get all the documentation approved by the CFIA and then sent over.
49:40
Diane Bergeron: It's a rigmarole when you're traveling with a dog.
49:42
Diane Bergeron: But then when you get there and you get your freedom,
49:45
Diane Bergeron: it's worth it. So
49:48
Diane Bergeron: I would say those are the biggest challenges. But
49:52
Diane Bergeron: I have to say there are times that I get on the plane with my dog and the flight
49:57
Diane Bergeron: attendant will take a look at the space they've got for me,
50:01
Diane Bergeron: and they've been just like, "No, we're moving you to a space."
50:04
Diane Bergeron: And they've put me in a row all by myself [laughs] so that the dog can stretch out
50:09
Diane Bergeron: or whatever.
50:14
Diane Bergeron: When I went to Royal Roads University and I was living in the dormitories there,
50:20
Diane Bergeron: they had these little tiny kind of dorm rooms,
50:22
Diane Bergeron: and then they had the bigger sort of executive rooms.
50:24
Diane Bergeron: And
50:25
Diane Bergeron: the executives were, like, on a lottery system, so I had requested it.
50:29
Diane Bergeron: And they said, "How big is your dog?" It was Lucy at the time.
50:33
Diane Bergeron: And I said, "Well, it's about 70 pounds."
50:37
Diane Bergeron: And they go, "Oh, no, we can't expect a dog that size to be in that little room.
50:40
Diane Bergeron: We're gonna put you in one of the bigger rooms." And I said,
50:42
Diane Bergeron: "Well, thank you very much. I appreciate that.
50:46
Diane Bergeron: I'm a little bit concerned that you didn't seem to care that you were gonna put me in
50:49
Diane Bergeron: that little room, but you cared about the dog being [laughs] in that room."
50:54
Diane Bergeron: And I find the same thing with airlines, right?
50:57
Diane Bergeron: They don't care that I'm gonna be squished up somewhere,
50:59
Diane Bergeron: but boy,
50:59
Diane Bergeron: they do care about that dog and making sure [laughs] that she has enough room.
51:03
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: [laughs] My clock is winding
51:08
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: down, but I have an idea that I'd like to run by you.
51:12
Diane Bergeron: Sure.
51:13
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: My Curb to Cabin Canada podcast,
51:17
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I'd like to invite you to come back and talk to us more maybe sometime in
51:23
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: February
51:24
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: or at the end of January.
51:25
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I really think that our listeners would benefit more from what you're going to
51:30
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: tell us. Would you be interested in coming back?
51:33
Diane Bergeron: Sure. Absolutely. Anytime, Donna.
51:36
Diane Bergeron: Anytime for you.
51:37
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: [laughs] Oh, my God. Am I honored here?
51:40
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: No, I mean it. I think you have... And I'm going to learn from this too.
51:47
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So I'm going to look at the dates, and I'm going to send you an invitation
51:51
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: for this. In the meantime,
51:53
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I wanna thank you for—this was a very entertaining interview,
51:58
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: a very motivating interview,
52:00
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: an interview where I think the kids of the future would benefit from a lot of the
52:06
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: values that you talked about and that you would pass on.
52:10
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So I wanna thank you, Di, Dr. B, for having been here today.
52:15
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And look for my invitation.
52:18
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Which would be better for you, end of January or February?
52:25
Diane Bergeron: You know what, I'm gonna have to...
52:27
Diane Bergeron: I'm thinking towards the end of February is probably better for me.
52:31
Diane Bergeron: If that's possible.
52:32
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah, you got it. I will work on that.
52:36
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: In the meantime, I wanna wish you the very best. I wanna congratulate you again.
52:40
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I think,
52:42
Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: well done. Well done.
52:44
Diane Bergeron: Thanks. Thank you.
52:45
Podcast Commentator: [upbeat music] Donna wants to hear from you and invites you to write to her at
52:51
Podcast Commentator: donnajodhan@gmail.com.
52:54
Podcast Commentator: Until next time.