Latest / Tribe and Tribulations With Julia Makowsky / The Courage to Call: Supporting Jewish Women Through Unplanned Pregnancies

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The Courage to Call: Supporting Jewish Women Through Unplanned Pregnancies · Tribe and Tribulations With Julia Makowsky

• 0:00
  What happens if a girl who's 16 years old comes to you and says,
• 0:05
  my parents don't know I am pregnant and I don't know what to do?
• 0:11
  What's your first step?
• 0:13
  Let's slow down the process and think.
• 0:15
  Don't make a decision in a day.
• 0:16
  Slow that process down and call Shifra.
• 0:19
  Have conversations to understand what is there for you.
• 0:22
  The panic is often not what it seems.
• 0:25
  Pregnancy is technically hidden.
• 0:26
  And especially for the first three months, we have this idea,
• 0:29
  you can't tell anybody.
• 0:30
  If there's a risk of losing baby because you don't want to jinx
• 0:33
  anything because you might hurt somebody's feelings.
• 0:34
  The pregnancy is separate from the
• 0:35
  child.
• 0:36
  Forget wanted.
• 0:37
  Some people hate being pregnant.
• 0:38
  It does not mean that unloved child,
• 0:39
  you can absolutely love the child.
• 0:41
  You cannot want something and not know it's the best thing for you.
• 0:47
  Welcome back to Tribe and Tribulations.
• 0:50
  I am so glad you are here today.
• 0:53
  We are discussing
• 0:54
  something very meaningful, but also a little nuanced and something that is not talked about
• 1:06
  within the Jewish community.
• 1:10
  I am joined today with Erica Pellman, who is the founder of Shifra.
• 1:17
  Shifra is an organization that helps support women with unwanted pregnancies.
• 1:24
  While I know that the reaction when somebody says they don't want a pregnancy in a world where people are dying to get pregnant can be extremely triggering and overwhelming.
• 1:41
  And if that is your case, it's okay to check this episode out at a later date when you can take it in.
• 1:55
  Today's conversation shines a light on a topic that's often deeply personal and rarely discussed openly.
• 2:02
  I'm joined by the team behind Shifra, the only American-based organization dedicated to supporting Jewish women through unplanned pregnancies.
• 2:14
  They equip them for motherhood through counseling, financial assistance, practical resources, and ongoing support if needed.
• 2:22
  Working with rabbis and Jewish leaders across the spectrum,
• 2:26
  Shifra has helped more than 350 mothers and their babies into the world with dignity,
• 2:31
  compassion, and a strong support system.
• 2:35
  I am grateful to have this conversation and explore what it really means to show up for women
• 2:40
  and families when they need it most.
• 2:45
  For people who are just hearing about Shifra for the first time,
• 2:50
  why was it created?
• 2:52
  Well, first, thanks for having me, Julia.
• 2:54
  I appreciate it.
• 2:55
  It's my pleasure.
• 2:56
  Yeah.
• 3:00
  So I grew up in Texas, but I don't sound like it.
• 3:02
  I may sound like I'm from New Jersey, but in fact, I grew up in Texas.
• 3:07
  And in my 20s, I came to this part of the country to meet a Jewish man and get married, and that was all successful.
• 3:17
  and I was actually not having an unplanned pregnancy.
• 3:20
  I was actually trying to get pregnant and it wasn't working.
• 3:28
  And I went into my work one day and I was like, what do you want?
• 3:32
  I was in that, the other side of the spectrum.
• 3:34
  What do you want from me, God?
• 3:37
  What do you want me to do with my life?
• 3:39
  And in that moment, I thought back to a very different experience
• 3:43
  that had happened three years before when a friend of mine had called me
• 3:46
  to tell me that she was pregnant and she wasn't going to keep the baby.
• 3:50
  She was going to end the pregnancy.
• 3:53
  And that moment was so painful.
• 4:02
  It was so painful because even though I understood why she wanted to end the pregnancy,
• 4:09
  she was 23, the father of the baby was not good fatherhood material.
• 4:15
  she you know wanted to be a mother but not yet it was still a loss and suddenly I was in my own
• 4:22
  moment of longing for a baby and I had a question what if she had wanted to have that baby
• 4:29
  who would have been there for her even when it wasn't the right time because here I was I was
• 4:33
  in the right time and I couldn't get pregnant and I thought suddenly started thinking about
• 4:36
  people who are not in the right time what would they need to have that baby
• 4:40
  So it was born from that moment of just asking, like, what would she have needed?
• 4:49
  When she was in crisis, what would she have needed to have the baby?
• 4:52
  And that was the beginning of Shifra.
• 4:56
  Two weeks after I went into my work and I asked that question, I found out I was pregnant for the first time.
• 5:03
  Wow.
• 5:04
  So my journey has been looking at becoming a mother and then looking about how to help mothers who didn't plan on it.
• 5:14
  What gap did you see within the Jewish community?
• 5:18
  I know you're coming from a place of experience with your friend.
• 5:22
  But when you looked to start this organization, was there anything out there like this?
• 5:29
  There wasn't.
• 5:30
  That was what was strange is that in Israel, there has been organizations that were set up for 50 years and there was nothing in New York City.
• 5:40
  A Jewish woman gets pregnant in New York City and for whatever reason it is a crisis, there was no organization to go.
• 5:48
  None.
• 5:49
  The whole city that was dedicated to her needs.
• 5:51
  You could show up at a general social services but they don't have like – they're not set up for this particular crisis.
• 5:59
  You know, the millions of dollars that, say, an organization like OHEL spends, they're spreading it on every social service need, you know.
• 6:08
  But someone who's about to have a baby unexpectedly needs a lot of attention.
• 6:11
  And there was nobody there with that resources financially, the therapeutic resources, nothing.
• 6:17
  It wasn't there.
• 6:18
  It wasn't there.
• 6:18
  And it wasn't there for decades.
• 6:20
  I think it's also because people are scared.
• 6:23
  This is a conversation that is so uncharted territory for most people that the idea is like see no evil, hear no evil.
• 6:38
  Where it's like people don't have unwanted pregnancies.
• 6:42
  That's not a thing within our community.
• 6:44
  Of course you want a baby.
• 6:46
  But I've seen it.
• 6:48
  You've seen it.
• 6:50
  There are so many different reasons why a woman might be in a position that she can't have a baby or she's questioning whether or not she's able to.
• 7:03
  Can you give me a few examples of situations women have come to you in and you've been able to coach them through it and help them through that?
• 7:14
  Yeah.
• 7:15
  So a lot of times when people hear unplanned pregnancy, they think teen pregnancy.
• 7:19
  And that is not really – I am much more likely to get a phone call from someone who is 44, has given away all of her baby things, her youngest is 10 years old, and then she finds out she's pregnant.
• 7:31
  Wow.
• 7:32
  I'm much more likely to hear from her than hear from someone who's a teenager.
• 7:35
  But it's still an unplanned pregnancy, and she still does not know how she's going to handle the lifestyle change, going back to diapers.
• 7:43
  She may be married and in a secure place, but she thought her life was going one direction.
• 7:48
  And now knowing the demands of motherhood, she's scared about bringing a baby into her home.
• 7:54
  And I think that's more common than we care to admit because I know even with my last, I was totally ready.
• 8:03
  I wanted him.
• 8:06
  But while I was pregnant, I suffered from antepartum depression.
• 8:11
  and during my pregnancy I could not see past myself.
• 8:15
  I literally could not see past myself
• 8:18
  and there were moments where like,
• 8:19
  how am I going to do this?
• 8:21
  How am I going to do this?
• 8:22
  And luckily I had a husband who was extraordinarily supportive
• 8:26
  and pushed me to go get the help that I needed.
• 8:29
  But there are a lot of women out there
• 8:32
  who don't even know who to go to.
• 8:35
  And they're feeling alone,
• 8:37
  whether it's because they're in a domestic violence situation, whether they're in an antepartum depression situation like I was.
• 8:45
  Or like you said, they're 45 years old.
• 8:48
  They didn't think that they were going to have any more kids and all of a sudden they have a baby and they're like, what is happening?
• 8:54
  Right.
• 8:54
  And maybe their older kids have special needs.
• 8:57
  I mean maybe they're incredible parents and they're – or maybe it's the other end of the spectrum.
• 9:02
  They have a two-year-old.
• 9:03
  They have a one-year-old or less than one-year-old.
• 9:05
  They have a six-month-old and then they're nursing and they think that they can't get pregnant and they become pregnant.
• 9:10
  They're like, how am I going to have three under two?
• 9:13
  That happens.
• 9:16
  We get every type of scenario, people leaving marriages, people who decide to get married after they become pregnant, 40-year-olds, 20-year-olds.
• 9:25
  It's a whole spectrum.
• 9:29
  What do you do in Shifra that can help support these women?
• 9:35
  Can you talk a little bit about I'm – it's my first phone call.
• 9:39
  I don't know who to call.
• 9:41
  I'm feeling stressed.
• 9:42
  I'm feeling overwhelmed.
• 9:44
  Do I call Shifra?
• 9:45
  Do I call a rabbi?
• 9:46
  Do I call my husband?
• 9:48
  Who am I calling for help when I don't know what my next steps are?
• 9:53
  So for Shifra, one of the things that makes us different perhaps than others in the field of unplanned pregnancy is –
• 10:03
  Not that there's anyone else in this field in Jewish groups in the United States, but in general, is that the person who picks up the phone is a therapist.
• 10:10
  It's not a volunteer.
• 10:12
  And that therapist is going to be with you throughout your pregnancy.
• 10:17
  If you're having the baby through the baby's first birthday and if the pregnancy ends for any reason, also there for you after that.
• 10:24
  So that's number one is I, as a therapist, you appreciate that.
• 10:29
  I don't think this is a job for volunteers because people are grappling with a lot of
• 10:35
  complex issues.
• 10:36
  And I also don't think it's a volunteer because when somebody comes and they
• 10:39
  say, I have an older child with autism.
• 10:45
  I get extremely sick from my pregnancies.
• 10:47
  My marriage
• 10:48
  is on the rocks.
• 10:49
  I don't know how I'm going to afford the baby.
• 10:51
  I can't give you a simple answer
• 10:53
  to that.
• 10:54
  Okay.
• 10:55
  It's layers of issues.
• 10:57
  But what I can do is I can layer on layers of love,
• 11:00
  starting with an actual therapist who is going to be there for you through long-term, like through
• 11:06
  the entire transition, through the entire pregnancy, that one person.
• 11:10
  And then upon that,
• 11:11
  we layer more layers.
• 11:12
  So we have financial aid that is substantial.
• 11:15
  That isn't like,
• 11:16
  oh, you need baby clothes.
• 11:17
  It's asking people, what do you need?
• 11:19
  Some people need baby clothes.
• 11:20
  They gave away all their baby stuff.
• 11:22
  But some people have a cousin who can give them baby things.
• 11:24
  But you know what?
• 11:25
  Their house is so crazy and so disorganized and they are so overwhelmed.
• 11:30
  They're in tears thinking about bringing a baby home.
• 11:32
  And you know what?
• 11:33
  We're going to go and help her get it organized and get it together so she can have a space
• 11:37
  to welcome her baby home.
• 11:39
  And someone else calls us and they're homeless.
• 11:42
  I mean, we have Jewish women calling us who got kicked out of where they were living because
• 11:47
  they were pregnant.
• 11:48
  I'm not talking about a 17-year-old.
• 11:49
  I'm talking about a 35-year-old who was in an abusive relationship.
• 11:52
  She doesn't have a place to live and our money is going to go towards getting her stabilized and in a home.
• 11:58
  And whatever it's going to be for that woman – and some people don't need any money.
• 12:02
  They need the therapy or they need a couples counselor.
• 12:04
  We also have a couples counselor on staff to work with the marriage, work with the relationship to get them through it and navigate to the other side.
• 12:13
  And the thing is, is that I compare it to this.
• 12:20
  When I was younger, when I was 15, I went through a period of time where I wasn't sure if God existed.
• 12:30
  And I wanted to believe in God, but I just didn't.
• 12:33
  So I'm like, what if it's all made up?
• 12:35
  And I had this feeling of darkness and loneliness.
• 12:39
  and I remember I was with my mom and I was at the Shabbat table and I was crying and she looked at
• 12:45
  me and she said, it's okay if you don't believe, I'll believe for us both.
• 12:50
  And so sometimes people
• 12:51
  are calling, they're just in the dark and they don't know how to believe and not here, they're,
• 12:55
  they're pregnant.
• 12:56
  There's this possibility of this new life and they're, they still feel like
• 13:00
  they're in the darkness and it's okay to be in the darkness and I can believe for us both.
• 13:06
  I can know that there's another side to this, but you don't have to be there yet.
• 13:09
  And we will walk with you.
• 13:10
  And we're not going to solve your problems like instantly, but we're going to take the
• 13:14
  layer after layer of what you need to be taken care of.
• 13:19
  You know, what's so beautiful about that is that we live in a world where saying things
• 13:27
  out loud can feel so scary.
• 13:30
  And that's the first step is somebody coming and saying to you, I need help.
• 13:37
  I don't know if I could carry this burden.
• 13:41
  And there is that question sometimes where it goes, is this pregnancy right?
• 13:45
  And one of the things we forget as a community is that the mother's life comes before the unborn child's life.
• 13:58
  and there is not a rabbi that I know that disagrees with that because if God forbid
• 14:05
  a woman's life is on the line, they're there to support the woman whatever means necessary.
• 14:15
  And I think you are giving women the ability to make an informed decision because they have
• 14:22
  access to the things that maybe are holding them back from having the pregnancy.
• 14:29
  Right.
• 14:29
  So a lot of people look at it and if you're in a state of panic, as I'm sure you talk
• 14:34
  about with your clients and with your staff, when you're in fight or flight or freeze mode,
• 14:41
  right, you're in a state of panic.
• 14:43
  Everything seems fixed.
• 14:46
  That's why you freeze because it's like this is how life is and I don't know what to do,
• 14:50
  right?
• 14:51
  But nothing is really fixed.
• 14:52
  So it's not like I can't afford a baby.
• 14:55
  Whether or not you can afford a baby is not a one-moment thing.
• 14:58
  You may not be able to afford a baby right now, but we bring you resources.
• 15:01
  We help you get a better job.
• 15:02
  We help get you baby things.
• 15:04
  Whatever it is, maybe you could afford a baby.
• 15:09
  Or I can't handle another baby.
• 15:11
  Well, you're right.
• 15:12
  You can't handle another baby right now with the skills you have.
• 15:14
  But we have parenting classes.
• 15:16
  we have a therapist to work with you to expand your ability.
• 15:20
  I remember we had one woman call us
• 15:23
  and she, um, she had a three year old, she had a two year old and a one year old,
• 15:28
  and then she became pregnant and she actually had a Hector to end her pregnancy from her rabbi,
• 15:34
  but she was torn and she called us and we had a conversation with her.
• 15:38
  Um, and the issue was,
• 15:43
  she'd actually come from a very large family and she didn't she saw some unhealthy dynamics in that
• 15:48
  family and she was terrified you know that that maybe so many kids she could repeat those dynamics
• 15:55
  and what the counselor pointed out to her is somebody who cares that much is already a good
• 16:00
  mother somebody who wants that for their kids is already good married she could trust herself
• 16:06
  as a mother that she could get through it but also because we were going to walk with her
• 16:10
  And we – she worked with our therapist and worked with our Nurture Her Parenting program to the point where she not only continued the pregnancy, but people would come up to her and tell her how incredibly patient she was with her kids.
• 16:25
  Wow.
• 16:26
  I mean that's an impressive thing because even as a parent who wants a baby, most of us can be not so patient with our kids.
• 16:34
  So that's the thing is that unplanned pregnancies can give you a life that's better than what you planned.
• 16:39
  it can um that's the possibility there but not by like wishful thinking by doing the kind of
• 16:46
  inner work that pushed her to the absolute edge that one i mean her marriage was pushed
• 16:50
  the edge her husband did not want her to have that baby but now that when she chose to continue
• 16:56
  they had to reinvent the marriage and they did you know and so they ended up in far better than
• 17:01
  what a position than they would have ever hoped to but they had to go through the darkness to the
• 17:05
  light which yeah when when you started this organization this was not a one two three kind
• 17:18
  of thing this wasn't just like okay one day i'm gonna just like pick it up figure it out and go
• 17:24
  i'm assuming right no okay what are some of the trial and error moments that you've had while
• 17:35
  you know creating something meaningful like we being a parent is sometimes honestly my first
• 17:42
  kid is I love her she's so good but she's kind of my trial child like I'm I'm trying my best to
• 17:49
  figure it out right um but what is something that you've learned that's really helped
• 17:56
  your the community that you've built and this organization you've built feel supported well
• 18:02
  First, let me just say, you know, I told you the story.
• 18:03
  Like when I started Shifra, I found out two weeks later I was pregnant with my first child who is now 17.
• 18:11
  And I feel like, you know, it only takes nine months to gestate a baby.
• 18:14
  It takes me really more like 12 years to gestate an organization.
• 18:18
  I mean, maybe 14 years to gestate the organization to the point where we were, you know, three years ago we doubled the number of women we were helping when we actually got on Instagram for the first time.
• 18:30
  So it takes a lot longer.
• 18:32
  I mean, and it took a lot of resilience for me.
• 18:34
  I mean, the first year I had this idea, we had one person call.
• 18:38
  The second year, we had one person call.
• 18:41
  It took a long time to even find people.
• 18:44
  You know, we were in a catch-22.
• 18:46
  In order for someone to call an organization, you have to trust them.
• 18:50
  But in order for people to trust us, they need to call so we can show that we can help.
• 18:53
  So it took so many years to build up that trust and build up, you know, now we have
• 18:58
  a whole community of women who have been through their pregnancies and they're helping each other
• 19:03
  and they're, you know, but it's, it's taken a long time and it's a lot of trial and error.
• 19:08
  I
• 19:08
  didn't start off with therapists answering the phone.
• 19:10
  Initially I thought I could do with
• 19:11
  volunteers, but then I saw like, no, these things are too intense.
• 19:16
  Especially since when you think
• 19:18
  about it, that first phone call took a lot of courage for somebody to get on that other line
• 19:22
  and dial your number.
• 19:24
  And if somebody answers the phone who maybe isn't trained in managing
• 19:30
  a crisis situation or is overwhelmed and has their own emotional response to what's going on,
• 19:39
  they might not be able to really, A, dedicate time, energy, and emotional capacity to help this
• 19:48
  person come to a choice that is really life or death.
• 19:55
  Yeah.
• 19:56
  And it needs to be – I mean I also don't hire anybody who is under 50 for this job
• 20:01
  really.
• 20:02
  I mean it's like the counselors have to be someone who have lived their life, have
• 20:06
  raised their kids and have a tremendous amount of clinical training so that they really can
• 20:11
  do it with that, can walk the journey with them.
• 20:19
  I'm going to ask you something about something a little controversial and I know it's not
• 20:25
  comfortable but I think it needs to be asked what happens if a girl who's 16 years old comes to you
• 20:33
  says my parents don't know I am pregnant and I don't know what to do what's your first step
• 20:43
  so with a 16 year old the first thing that we would do is work with them on who is safe for
• 20:49
  them to tell in their support network i mean the first thing is awesome first obviously is she safe
• 20:55
  is what's the circumstances of this is she safe that would be the first thing we'll be taking
• 21:00
  care of because safety of the mother comes first and then the second thing would be helping her
• 21:05
  connect with someone in her in her it could be her parents supporting her and talk having that
• 21:09
  first conversation with her parents um because we're not going to work with someone under age
• 21:14
  unless we're there's they're with an adult yeah parental consent or or they've connected with
• 21:20
  another adult if somehow they couldn't live with their parents anymore and they needed another
• 21:23
  legal guardian then whatever it is and then there would there would be a process i mean we rarely
• 21:27
  rarely get that i'll tell you one story of when we did we had a 16 year old call us once um who was
• 21:35
  pregnant.
• 21:36
  She didn't find out she was pregnant until she was 32 weeks pregnant.
• 21:41
  What?
• 21:42
  Yeah.
• 21:43
  She didn't find out she was pregnant.
• 21:44
  She was 32 weeks pregnant.
• 21:45
  Wow.
• 21:46
  Someone had told her she couldn't get pregnant.
• 21:49
  Woe to that doctor.
• 21:50
  She had been, you know, not making a lot of good choices in a lot of ways.
• 21:55
  Not just that.
• 21:56
  She'd also been using some drugs.
• 21:58
  I mean, she was not doing great.
• 22:01
  And
• 22:01
  she
• 22:06
  was like talking about adoption
• 22:07
  and placing for adoption because that's generally like
• 22:10
  a choice
• 22:11
  in that stage of pregnancy
• 22:12
  at 16 she definitely was not
• 22:15
  ready to be a mom
• 22:18
  but then
• 22:19
  she went through a period of time
• 22:21
  in which she actually considered having a late term
• 22:23
  abortion and actually flying to Colorado
• 22:25
  and doing it because she was just so
• 22:29
  she was so scared and she felt
• 22:31
  Like maybe she just screwed up the baby permanently.
• 22:37
  And then there was not, you know, in that situation, what were we doing for her?
• 22:40
  We were praying for her.
• 22:42
  We were davening for her.
• 22:43
  You know, she was really in crisis.
• 22:45
  And my concern was she's going to live with this for the rest of her life.
• 22:48
  This is a 32-week-old fetus.
• 22:51
  And at the very last moment, she, I mean, we were all praying for her.
• 22:54
  I got people who were wanting to have kids praying for this girl.
• 22:57
  The last moment she wrote a text, I'm ready to make an adoption plan.
• 23:00
  We don't do adoption.
• 23:01
  But we connected her with a place.
• 23:03
  She got in a home and she ended up giving birth on Parsha Nitzavim, which is the Parsha that says choose life that everyone that you and your children should live.
• 23:13
  And but what's interesting is the postscript of hers.
• 23:16
  You know, her life after that changed for the better.
• 23:20
  She did Project Extreme.
• 23:22
  Wow.
• 23:22
  She she.
• 23:24
  Yeah.
• 23:24
  Project Streams.
• 23:25
  Amazing.
• 23:26
  She did Project Extreme.
• 23:27
  She ended up going to Israel.
• 23:28
  She got married.
• 23:30
  like that moment was actually an inflection point as hard as that i'm sure was she only
• 23:35
  knows she was pregnant for a short time but if it had been longer we would have had to take care
• 23:38
  you know connect her with people could take care of her but she didn't get worse she got better
• 23:43
  like that when she saw the birth adoption adoptive mother hold the baby she um she's
• 23:51
  she said to her mom i think i'm finally getting how much you love me well yeah but that's the
• 23:56
  minority of what we do.
• 23:57
  I mean, that's a one in 17 year story.
• 24:01
  Most people are, like I said,
• 24:02
  more likely to be 35 than 15.
• 24:04
  It's funny when we had a preliminary meeting about doing this
• 24:09
  podcast together and you happened to have mentioned that like there are women that are
• 24:14
  Hasidic women who will call up and ask for help because they've had 10 kids and all of a sudden
• 24:21
  they're pregnant again and they're like, I can't do this.
• 24:24
  It's not fair.
• 24:25
  And I think that
• 24:28
  understanding that every woman can have moments of not feeling like enough
• 24:38
  and not feeling like they can do it.
• 24:40
  And it doesn't matter whether you've had 10 babies,
• 24:46
  one baby, no babies.
• 24:49
  We all have self-doubt.
• 24:52
  And I think that that is kind of the underlying,
• 24:59
  I would say epidemic that come with women and motherhood.
• 25:05
  You know, we think that
• 25:07
  we're going to lose ourselves when we're a parent or we're going to not know what to do.
• 25:13
  We're going
• 25:13
  to screw up the kids.
• 25:14
  And by the way, you probably will screw up the kids a little bit.
• 25:17
  That's part
• 25:18
  of parenting.
• 25:19
  Okay.
• 25:20
  I think that most people think that like they have to have everything figured out
• 25:25
  all the time and most people don't have anything figured out.
• 25:29
  You know, we tell her, we often tell
• 25:31
  this to women who are feeling intimidated by this prostactive pregnancy that wasn't planned.
• 25:36
  This, this Neshama chose you actually.
• 25:40
  So as much as on one level, it feels like unplanned,
• 25:42
  And, you know, in the world of this world, it feels like, you know, this is an accident.
• 25:48
  Maybe not.
• 25:49
  Maybe this neshama came to you.
• 25:51
  This child chose you and knew what it was getting into.
• 25:55
  And this is actually this journey, you as a mom and the child, like for all of us, like this is the journey you're supposed to be on.
• 26:02
  I mean, for me, like one of the things I like to say is thank you, Hashem, for making my kids perfect according to your will.
• 26:09
  Not perfect according to my will.
• 26:10
  They're not, you know, kids don't fit your picture.
• 26:13
  They're way better.
• 26:15
  They're way better.
• 26:16
  And you have to know that about yourself.
• 26:18
  You don't fit some picture.
• 26:19
  You're way better.
• 26:22
  And, yeah.
• 26:26
  When people are coming to you, do you find that their need is more financial or more emotional?
• 26:32
  Yes.
• 26:33
  Yes.
• 26:33
  Yes to both.
• 26:36
  It's both.
• 26:37
  You know, and it's funny.
• 26:38
  Maybe there's two broad categories.
• 26:39
  Sometimes somebody is calling to us and like life is falling apart from them.
• 26:42
  Their marriage is falling apart.
• 26:45
  They have children with special needs.
• 26:46
  They feel like they're barely holding it together.
• 26:49
  And like then this comes on top and they're just like, I don't know how I'm going to take care of this.
• 26:54
  They're married.
• 26:55
  They're not married.
• 26:55
  Whatever it is, okay?
• 26:57
  And then there's some people who come and their life is so rigid and so clear.
• 27:02
  And I'm going to buy this house and I'm going to do this.
• 27:05
  And then they have this come, this unplanned pregnancy.
• 27:09
  and they don't have room for life.
• 27:11
  They have room for their plan and they don't have room for life.
• 27:15
  And it's like, can you make room for this?
• 27:17
  And those people, they don't have a financial need.
• 27:19
  It's not that.
• 27:20
  It's all emotional.
• 27:23
  It's okay, you're going to take one less vacation,
• 27:26
  like that kind of thing.
• 27:27
  But it's like, can you make room for life?
• 27:28
  Can you make room for a life that's better than the one you planned?
• 27:33
  I think the idea that it is better is so far from a person's brain when they're in it.
• 27:42
  For sure.
• 27:43
  Like meaning there are – I know in theory I wanted a baby.
• 27:49
  I want children.
• 27:50
  I want a family.
• 27:51
  But this might not be the right time or the right person or the right anything.
• 27:55
  So saying that to somebody, which is why it's important that you have a therapist on the other line, right?
• 28:00
  Because our initial response is like, but it's going to be so good and you're going to be a great mom and blah, blah, blah.
• 28:06
  Like that's not necessarily what somebody needs to hear.
• 28:11
  A hundred percent.
• 28:12
  I'm just – no, for sure.
• 28:14
  That was not what my counselor would say at all.
• 28:15
  But it's just like in the end, that is what happens is the making room for something.
• 28:20
  Making room.
• 28:21
  But that's not where you go first.
• 28:22
  Where you go first is it makes sense you don't want this baby right now.
• 28:26
  It makes sense.
• 28:27
  Like, you know, it's not the right time.
• 28:30
  Maybe it's not the right time.
• 28:31
  Maybe it's not, you know.
• 28:32
  But like I said, things aren't sort of not fixed.
• 28:35
  I was saying, you know, maybe you could afford a baby.
• 28:37
  Maybe you could learn to care a baby.
• 28:38
  Biggest fear people have is what if I don't want the pregnancy?
• 28:41
  Will I be able to love this baby?
• 28:44
  Wow.
• 28:44
  Right?
• 28:44
  That's the big fear.
• 28:46
  And the answer, what we find, is that when we love our moms and love them unconditionally,
• 28:52
  however they're feeling, whatever they want, something gets unlocked inside of them.
• 28:57
  and they find within them what they need to love their baby and they adore their baby.
• 29:02
  It's most common.
• 29:04
  If you have multiple children, it's my favorite child.
• 29:07
  When the women get their support, when they've been able to say out loud,
• 29:10
  I don't want this pregnancy as many times as they need to say it.
• 29:14
  There's no short-cutting the process of first telling the truth and processing it.
• 29:18
  But at the end, I've seen, because this is not my first rodeo, as they say.
• 29:25
  at the end, this is your favorite child.
• 29:28
  Maybe because of how hard it was to bring them in,
• 29:31
  we value things that are hard after the fact.
• 29:34
  Yeah.
• 29:35
  And I think having somebody there who's
• 29:38
  there to validate and not be judgmental because there's so much shame and so much grief and so
• 29:44
  much pain and to say out loud, I don't want this baby, I think is actually harder than continuing
• 29:53
  with the pregnancy or letting go of a pregnancy because that first step of admitting that
• 30:02
  I'm conflicted, I'm confused is so daunting because whatever choice you make is going
• 30:12
  to impact the rest of your life.
• 30:15
  And that's really scary.
• 30:17
  Yeah.
• 30:18
  We have people call us who just have tremendous grief about choices they've made.
• 30:22
  and you know I don't wish that on anyone nor do I judge them either this is because it's not about
• 30:31
  you just cannot judge when you're not in someone else's shoes that's not our place
• 30:35
  place is to love people through the crisis and and to really love them
• 30:42
  as someone who's walked alongside of these women what has it taught you about resilience
• 30:54
  I think
• 30:58
  I think there's
• 30:59
  no shortcuts
• 31:02
  it's a day to day thing
• 31:06
  but it's interesting
• 31:08
  we have a lifetime parenting
• 31:16
  course and it's called
• 31:18
  Nurtured Heart.
• 31:19
  It's its own thing
• 31:20
  but we give it for free to our moms
• 31:22
  for their whole lives if they want.
• 31:27
  You're continuing
• 31:28
  this pregnancy.
• 31:29
  It's not a one year
• 31:30
  commitment.
• 31:30
  This is a lifetime commitment so we have this lifetime
• 31:32
  parenting community
• 31:34
  to support our moms through
• 31:36
  with the little things like what do I do about
• 31:38
  sleep training and the big things.
• 31:40
  Whatever it is, I'm struggling with my child who's
• 31:42
  five at school that I had six years
• 31:44
  ago.
• 31:45
  Um, or I guess you had five years ago.
• 31:48
  Uh, but resilience, I think starts with seeing the good,
• 31:55
  you know, seeing the good and seeing the good in yourself and seeing the good.
• 31:58
  So that's what we try to reflect back is this tremendous strength of the women who call us.
• 32:04
  I mean, we have such respect for the women who have the courage to call us whatever happens.
• 32:09
  Like we see their strengths and we see their, their goodness.
• 32:12
  And even the people who are
• 32:13
  most of the time when someone's considering not continuing a pregnancy, it's because they want
• 32:17
  to be a good mother and they don't know how they could possibly be a good mother in this
• 32:21
  circumstance.
• 32:22
  And that in itself is amazing.
• 32:23
  They want to be a good mother.
• 32:25
  And we see that,
• 32:26
  we see that like they, you know, all the, when people are overwhelmed, it's because they care
• 32:32
  so much about life.
• 32:33
  They care so much about helping others and doing good and all the things.
• 32:38
  And so can you – the resilience comes from seeing that goodness and not needing it to be perfect, not needing it to be perfect to be great.
• 32:49
  within the Jewish community because we highlight on this podcast different types of Judaism.
• 32:56
  And some are more open to the idea that people have sex pre-marriage or they are living with
• 33:06
  a significant other or they're in a relationship.
• 33:09
  They've had 10 kids and they're married and they
• 33:12
  don't want the pregnancy, what can our communities all throughout the spectrum here do in order to
• 33:19
  support women who are feeling alone and stressed and kind of like they have nowhere to turn?
• 33:28
  I mean, I think the first thing is that it's important to slow down the process
• 33:33
  from the moment someone finds out that they're pregnant.
• 33:36
  If someone is making some sort of
• 33:39
  decision or thinking of making some sort of decision, slow down that process because you are
• 33:44
  in a panic mode and people do not make their best decisions when they're in panic.
• 33:48
  So it's just important first to like, to like give people space to, to, to say whatever they
• 33:53
  need to say.
• 33:54
  And it makes sense.
• 33:56
  Number one.
• 33:57
  And two, let's slow down the process and think
• 34:00
  really don't make a decision in a week.
• 34:02
  Don't make a decision in a day, like slow that process down
• 34:05
  and call Shifra, you know, have conversations to understand what is there for you.
• 34:10
  Because also the panic is often not what it seems.
• 34:16
  You know what I mean?
• 34:18
  Is it really about that there's no timing or is it about how much of a failure I feel like with this child?
• 34:23
  You know, is it really about this?
• 34:26
  You haven't seen this baby's face yet.
• 34:27
  You probably would love it if you saw it.
• 34:30
  But what you're seeing is maybe failures in other areas.
• 34:34
  And you don't even want to admit how much of a failure you feel like in this area.
• 34:37
  And so when this pops up, you're like, I just got to get rid of it.
• 34:41
  And do you think there's still a stigma when asking for support within our community?
• 34:48
  Of course.
• 34:49
  Of course.
• 34:50
  Yeah, it's hard to say that.
• 34:52
  And it's hard to say that I don't know what to do.
• 34:55
  It's hard to say I'm scared.
• 34:57
  It's hard to say I'm in the dark.
• 34:59
  Everybody's supposed to have it together.
• 35:01
  you know what is true communal responsibility look like in these moments
• 35:07
  i mean i think people need to be able to go to their rabbis and share i think i mean one thing
• 35:16
  we didn't touch on but there's a lot of dynamics that happen within married couples around this
• 35:21
  and i think it's really important um i mean we've had a lot of women call us telling us that their
• 35:26
  husbands are pressuring them to end their pregnancies a lot.
• 35:30
  And so women need to be,
• 35:34
  you know, they need to be able to talk to their rabbi.
• 35:37
  Rabbis need to share that this is a
• 35:39
  possibility.
• 35:39
  This could happen just like infertility is a possibility.
• 35:42
  It could happen.
• 35:42
  And it's okay
• 35:43
  to come to me with this problem.
• 35:46
  Um, and in that there's support for the family, there's support
• 35:52
  for the woman and there's also support for the you know the woman provides support for the man
• 35:57
  yeah we have a father's coach and a couple's like a couple's coach yeah so this is like the
• 36:03
  full gamut here you're really taking care of the family as a whole and looking at the unit
• 36:09
  holistically and going okay there's a lot of things at play right in this situation yeah right you're
• 36:16
  not just looking at it in a vacuum and going okay the mom doesn't want it so that's what's happening
• 36:20
  or the dad doesn't want it so that's what's happening or they can both not understand how
• 36:26
  they're feeling in that moment and i think there's a lot of uncertainty in life and especially
• 36:33
  when you are finding out you're pregnant there's this like being pregnant any situation it's very
• 36:40
  vulnerable so vulnerable you're so vulnerable i mean my last also so i mean it's been hard i thank
• 36:46
  God, I have four children, but it's not easy for me to get pregnant.
• 36:50
  I always want to.
• 36:51
  46,
• 36:52
  I still want to get pregnant again.
• 36:55
  And yet when you are, you're like, I'm not in charge here.
• 36:59
  I am so vulnerable.
• 37:01
  It is a vulnerable thing.
• 37:02
  What was the question?
• 37:06
  The question was like,
• 37:08
  how do we remove shame?
• 37:09
  How do we be there for every facet of this?
• 37:13
  Right.
• 37:13
  So there needs to be – there just – all the – our thing has been because our approach has been what do you need?
• 37:20
  Then everything has been developed to kind of deal with everything because as much as – I mean everybody's story is unique.
• 37:28
  The components, the layers that people need, the relationship layer, the financial layer, the emotional layer, the communal other mom support layer.
• 37:36
  Or, you know, we have to develop it.
• 37:39
  But it needs to be mainstream so that it's in every synagogue, just the way there's infertility stuff.
• 37:45
  It needs to be just out there.
• 37:47
  Like this is a possibility.
• 37:49
  And I think as a therapist and coach, I think it's extremely important to discuss because there's so much shame and so much isolation when we're talking about pregnancy.
• 38:01
  Because now that there's been this light on trying to conceive and infertility, okay, it's a lot easier.
• 38:11
  I wouldn't say it's easy by any means, but it's easier to ask for help.
• 38:15
  Right.
• 38:15
  Whereas something like this, people are dying to get pregnant.
• 38:21
  People feel so much shame like I got pregnant, but now I don't know what to do next.
• 38:27
  And I've seen that within my own practice and surrounding my friends and family.
• 38:32
  And I think that one of the things that you really did touch upon is we need to talk about the fact that it's really scary to be pregnant sometimes.
• 38:42
  Yeah.
• 38:42
  And it's totally normal to have these feelings and to reach out to people, have conversations.
• 38:49
  There is no shame in not being happy all the time.
• 38:54
  A hundred percent.
• 38:56
  And I think that that's part of the problem is that like within our community, having kids is part of the Masorah, part of generations.
• 39:06
  She's beautiful.
• 39:07
  And it's amazing and it's really what our foundation is built on.
• 39:11
  Like Avram – they said Avram is going to have as many children as the sand in the sea and the stars in the sky.
• 39:17
  And we can appreciate that while also still going, yeah, I don't want as many kids as the stars in the sky.
• 39:23
  Thank you so much.
• 39:25
  like it's okay to say i don't know what comes next and finding somebody who's going to validate
• 39:33
  you as a person and know that it's okay to have questions that doesn't mean you have the answers
• 39:40
  right but it's okay to have the questions it's okay not to be okay sometimes a hundred percent
• 39:46
  i think that yeah that was a phrase i got it covered i was like it's okay not to be okay
• 39:51
  So that gives you a place to stand on.
• 39:53
  What, since you've been doing this for 17 years, what are some language that family members or community members can use if somebody does come to them and say, you know, I'm pregnant.
• 40:07
  Surprise, I'm pregnant.
• 40:10
  But I'm so scared.
• 40:12
  And I feel lonely.
• 40:19
  I mean it just if you know that person and they've shared why this is I think the first
• 40:24
  thing to say is it makes sense yeah it makes sense it makes sense why you're scared it makes
• 40:31
  sense why this is lonely for you it makes sense yeah I think that one of the reasons why it's so
• 40:42
  scary to come to a place like Shifra or to a rabbi or to anybody at first is because we do,
• 40:51
  pregnancy is technically hidden, right?
• 40:53
  Okay.
• 40:54
  It's internal.
• 40:55
  And especially for the first three
• 40:57
  months, we have this idea.
• 40:58
  You can't tell anybody.
• 40:59
  You can't tell anybody because there's a risk of
• 41:01
  losing the other.
• 41:01
  You can't tell anybody because you don't want to jinx anything.
• 41:03
  You can't tell
• 41:04
  anybody because you might hurt somebody's feelings.
• 41:05
  You can't tell anybody and so on and so forth.
• 41:08
  Right.
• 41:09
  But here's the thing.
• 41:11
  It's okay if that's your choice and you want to not tell anybody, but it's also your choice if you want support, that there is no stigma in wanting to say, I want to share this joy with somebody or I want to share this fear with somebody.
• 41:28
  and let's say it's not comfortable going to a rabbi or a family member you should know that
• 41:34
  there are people therapists friends family members and organizations like shifra that are there to
• 41:44
  connect yeah and there to support you and validate you no matter what the feeling is you can call
• 41:50
  shifra and say you know i'm pregnant i'm so excited about it but i'm also nervous about x y and z
• 41:57
  right there's if you're in a well it's it's hard because it's really more for crisis we're for
• 42:03
  crisis but and inside of it there is it's normal also for there to be both feelings at the same
• 42:09
  time people can be you know a lot of our clients they feel both feelings at the same time you're
• 42:15
  going to feel more than one feeling and but if there's a there's a genuine crisis for us
• 42:20
  the crisis like you should call us you know if it's if you don't know and it doesn't most people
• 42:25
  calling aren't actually on the, some people are on the edge of making a decision about whether or
• 42:30
  not to continue the pregnancy.
• 42:31
  And some people aren't, they know there are, they, they're not,
• 42:34
  they know they're continuing the pregnancy, but they have no idea how.
• 42:37
  And they're also very
• 42:38
  welcome to call.
• 42:39
  I mean, that's, you don't, I don't want, the goal is to have a community where
• 42:44
  you don't get to the state of despair.
• 42:47
  That's a couple steps of being alone by yourself and
• 42:49
  panicked.
• 42:50
  You're, you know, a little scared.
• 42:52
  It's okay to call and reach out.
• 42:55
  I'd rather hear from
• 42:55
  you now than like let you dwell in fear for three weeks, three weeks, three months, nine months.
• 43:01
  Right.
• 43:02
  I mean, I think the, you know, the consistent experience is that when people
• 43:05
  are willing to say it, then they can process it, you know, and when you can't admit, you can't
• 43:11
  release.
• 43:15
  I think there's a lot of shame within the community in general and, and for women as
• 43:22
  a whole because biologically we're supposed to be nurturers.
• 43:26
  Biologically we're supposed to want
• 43:29
  pregnancy and babies and have all this love to give.
• 43:34
  And I think one of the messages that
• 43:37
  I've gotten from you is that if you don't have enough love to give, you will step in and give
• 43:44
  the mother that love.
• 43:46
  Yeah, that's it.
• 43:48
  I mean, when you love, I mean, just, you know, I had,
• 43:54
  I had this, um, I mean, this is sort of, this is an example where, uh, this is sort of an extreme
• 44:01
  example, but there was a woman who called us, um, she grew up in foster care.
• 44:07
  Okay.
• 44:08
  And she's,
• 44:09
  she's not a she's not young she's in her late 20s i think she found out she was pregnant and
• 44:16
  the father of the baby was extremely abusive extremely okay she wasn't sure whether she
• 44:22
  wanted to keep the pregnancy she called us and we didn't hear from her we actually assumed that
• 44:25
  she'd ended the pregnancy then we find out that she didn't she actually decided to continue the
• 44:30
  pregnancy.
• 44:32
  Um, and, um, the father of the baby was so abusive.
• 44:39
  He punched her in the stomach
• 44:40
  to try to get her to miscarry when she was in her, uh, in her twenties, twenties weeks.
• 44:44
  Okay.
• 44:45
  But here's the thing.
• 44:46
  She went to the house, she delivered the baby.
• 44:49
  She went to the hospital
• 44:50
  every day to nurse that baby.
• 44:52
  Wow.
• 44:52
  Okay.
• 44:53
  She loves that baby.
• 44:54
  That baby has saved and changed
• 44:57
  her life.
• 44:57
  Okay.
• 44:58
  She is such a caring mother doing everything for that baby, you know?
• 45:03
  And so she did
• 45:04
  not start off loving that baby, but she loves that baby now.
• 45:07
  But what was in between that?
• 45:08
  Like all the chesed, all the kindness that we could do for her and a lot of other, I mean,
• 45:13
  there's other organizations too that were helping her be corholing, all sorts of stuff, like just
• 45:17
  thing after thing, meal after meal, like just one thing at a time.
• 45:21
  And she wasn't always able to
• 45:23
  even say thank you.
• 45:24
  Sometimes she was, sometimes she wasn't.
• 45:25
  She was in a lot of stress, but it
• 45:27
  was like all that love somehow, something shifted inside of her and she loves that baby and she's a
• 45:33
  great mother.
• 45:34
  But it was, you know, you know, she had to be loved.
• 45:38
  She had to be cared for.
• 45:39
  Sometimes people call us and like one of the core issues is they don't have a mother,
• 45:44
  you know, they don't have a mother to love them.
• 45:45
  And we gotta be the, you know, we gotta be that
• 45:47
  mother figure to love them because they didn't get it or they didn't, they don't have it, you know?
• 45:51
  I mean, there's a lot of generational trauma and a lot of people who don't have healthy relationships with mothers and then they question their own capabilities.
• 46:04
  So the fact that you guys are providing such a beautiful way to reframe.
• 46:11
  Now, that doesn't mean that you can change their history, but you can change their future.
• 46:17
  Yeah.
• 46:18
  And I think that that's such an amazing, amazing thing that you are providing.
• 46:25
  I want to do a few rapid fire questions with you.
• 46:27
  Okay, great.
• 46:30
  But I think before we do that, I just want to make something very abundantly clear.
• 46:36
  No one out there is alone.
• 46:39
  That the beauty of being part of the Jewish community is the emphasis on community.
• 46:45
  Yeah.
• 46:46
  That no matter the circumstance – and I think that this is – it's meaningful to me because as somebody who comes from a very normal home, thank God, but still was put in very traumatic situations and I felt so alone in those moments.
• 47:14
  and I think that I didn't know that there was anywhere to turn,
• 47:20
  which is one of the reasons why I'm a therapist now
• 47:22
  is because I wanted to make sure that people knew
• 47:24
  that there's always somewhere for you to turn.
• 47:28
  And the fact that there are people like you, Erica,
• 47:31
  who are creating organizations to help people know
• 47:35
  that there will always be a community.
• 47:39
  There will always be someone there to hold your hand no matter the circumstance.
• 47:46
  And I think one of the most important parts of all of this is to note that we've all been through things and we can all use our history and our perseverance to help somebody else.
• 48:07
  so if you're listening or watching this out there take an example from erica take an example from a
• 48:14
  friend you know or maybe this podcast and try to help somebody else because you don't know what a
• 48:21
  hello will do you don't know what a little bit of tzedakah will do or a little bit of kindness so
• 48:27
  i think it's really important that just like you 17 years ago saw a need and it started slow
• 48:37
  but you're here and that's resilience yeah you know what is one thing every jewish woman should
• 48:47
  know that you're precious beyond measure i agree true one myth you'd love to permanently erase
• 49:02
  an unwanted pregnancy means an unloved child.
• 49:06
  I think that that is so true
• 49:08
  because you cannot want something
• 49:11
  and not know that it's the best thing for you.
• 49:14
  The pregnancy is separate from the child.
• 49:17
  People can hate being pregnant.
• 49:18
  Forget wanted.
• 49:19
  Some people hate being pregnant.
• 49:20
  Yes.
• 49:21
  So an unwanted pregnancy has nothing to do.
• 49:23
  It does not mean an unloved child.
• 49:24
  You can absolutely love the child.
• 49:26
  The most meaningful moment you experienced through Shifra?
• 49:33
  I got a note like in the last two weeks from a woman in Florida.
• 49:39
  I had actually – she's a client of ours.
• 49:43
  She had attended a talk while pregnant.
• 49:47
  And while I was speaking about Shifra, the baby was kicking.
• 49:53
  Wow.
• 49:53
  And she wrote me this note just about how it's not just that we helped her through this very difficult circumstance.
• 50:01
  She married the father of the baby and it was going beautifully.
• 50:05
  We did a lot of couples counseling.
• 50:07
  But also it's like that kind of love is connected to Hashem also.
• 50:13
  That we can model the love that Hashem has for us in our relationships is pretty.
• 50:19
  Yeah, it's outstanding.
• 50:22
  One thing every rabbi or community leader should hear.
• 50:28
  This is happening and you need to make sure it's okay for people to ask for help.
• 50:34
  Yeah, I think that I have so much respect for the Rebbeim, but I think there's a lot of fear there also of making the wrong move and that there could be community backlash.
• 50:48
  And I think that one of the detriments is this fear of being judged.
• 50:59
  And it's so crazy because as Jews, we're not supposed to judge.
• 51:04
  And yet there's so much stigma around a lot of topics, not only this one.
• 51:12
  One thing every husband should hear.
• 51:17
  it's not a theoretical baby if she's already pregnant
• 51:21
  that's not for every husband that's for the husbands that are like well you should just
• 51:26
  get rid of it it's like it's not theoretical when it's in her body it's i mean they can be like that
• 51:32
  you know um it's not a theoretical pregnancy if she's already pregnant let's put it that way
• 51:36
  i also think they need to know that it's not only the woman's responsibility
• 51:42
  oh yeah that it took two to tango so it takes two to navigate a situation right yeah and and
• 51:52
  yeah absolutely one message to the women listening who feel completely alone right now
• 52:09
  clouds can cover up the sun but can't make it disappear and you can have a lot of darkness
• 52:16
  around you but your light is still there and it's okay to ask for help
• 52:24
  if someone listening today is in this situation or knows someone who is and they are
• 52:29
  scared to ask for help, what would you want them to hear directly from you?
• 52:43
  That we're here to unconditionally love and respect you in your journey.
• 52:53
  And we're a safe place to call.
• 52:57
  um i think that's i would want women to know that actually i'm going to think back to my 16
• 53:07
  year old self 14 year old self when i was in a scary situation and go i was alone because i
• 53:15
  chose to be alone because i was scared there was no one there if i knew then what i know now
• 53:26
  I think I would tell myself
• 53:31
  being alone is a choice
• 53:34
  suffering in silence is a choice
• 53:38
  and you don't have to make that choice
• 53:42
  and I think that that
• 53:46
  is one of the main takeaways I would want people to have
• 53:50
  is that you don't have to suffer in silence.
• 53:54
  And the more we talk about things
• 53:57
  and the more help organizations like Shiffer get,
• 54:01
  the better we are making the community as a whole
• 54:07
  because people could feel safe
• 54:10
  and make choices from a place of love and not fear.
• 54:15
  Yes.
• 54:17
  So thank you so much, Erica, for coming.
• 54:19
  I am so grateful.
• 54:20
  And if they want to reach Shifra?
• 54:22
  We will put all the information in the bio of this podcast, and we will have a link attached as well if you need any resources or need to reach Erica or Shifra as a whole.
• 54:33
  Awesome.
• 54:34
  Thank you so much.
• 54:34
  Thank you so much.