Latest / The Chuck ToddCast / Full Episode - Trump’s Iran Deal Is Worse Than The Deal He Tore Up + A Marine Sniper’s Message on Service, Sacrifice, and Country

Transcript

Full Episode - Trump’s Iran Deal Is Worse Than The Deal He Tore Up + A Marine Sniper’s Message on Service, Sacrifice, and Country · The Chuck ToddCast

0:00
Speaker 1: This episode of the Chuck Todcast is brought to you
0:02
Speaker 1: by Wild Grain. Wild Grain is the first bake from
0:06
Speaker 1: frozen subscription box for sour dough breads, artisonal pastries, and
0:11
Speaker 1: fresh pastas, plus all the items conveniently baked in twenty
0:14
Speaker 1: five minutes or less. Unlike many store brought options, Wild
0:18
Speaker 1: Grain uses some simple ingredients you can pronounce and a
0:22
Speaker 1: slow fermentation process that can be a lot easier on
0:25
Speaker 1: your belly, little gut health there right, and richer in
0:28
Speaker 1: nutrients antioxidants. There's also no preservatives and no shortcuts. The
0:32
Speaker 1: Wild Grain boxes are fully customizable. In addition to their
0:35
Speaker 1: variety box, they have a gluten free box, a vegan box,
0:39
Speaker 1: and a new protein box. I will tell you I
0:42
Speaker 1: have done the gluten free box. I have done it
0:44
Speaker 1: a second time. I have also used the code, the
0:48
Speaker 1: todcast code. If you use the promo code toodcast at checkout,
0:52
Speaker 1: you get thirty dollars off. I've already used it as
0:55
Speaker 1: a gift to somebody else who loves this bread. It
0:59
Speaker 1: is hard to find good gluten free bread. It is fantastic.
1:02
Speaker 1: They give you step by step instructions.
1:04
Speaker 2: I really dig this.
1:06
Speaker 1: There is nothing like having an artesian bakery in your freezer.
1:10
Speaker 1: Right now, Wildgrain is offering my listeners thirty dollars off
1:12
Speaker 1: your first box plus free croissants for life. Come on
1:17
Speaker 1: when you go to wildgrain dot com slash podcast to
1:20
Speaker 1: start your subscription today. That's thirty dollars off your first
1:23
Speaker 1: box and free croissants for life when you visit wildgrain
1:26
Speaker 1: dot com slash podcast, or simply use the promo code
1:30
Speaker 1: podcast at checkout. This is a sponsor I absolutely embrace,
1:35
Speaker 1: so use that code.
1:40
Speaker 2: Hello there, Happy Monday for many of you.
1:43
Speaker 1: We are honoring Memorial Day weekend here in the United
1:46
Speaker 1: States in my household, and also is my twenty fourth
1:49
Speaker 1: wedding anniversary May twenty fifth, So now that you're keeping
1:52
Speaker 1: score at home, I don't expect you to ever miss
1:55
Speaker 1: another wedding anniversary of mine right now that you know,
2:00
Speaker 1: a Memorial Day weekend in Las Vegas. Yes, my wife
2:08
Speaker 1: and I eloped for the It was a second marriage
2:11
Speaker 1: for both of us. We didn't need the big wedding,
2:13
Speaker 1: so that's what we did had we each had a
2:18
Speaker 1: close friend essentially meet us there and to this day,
2:25
Speaker 1: Graceland Chapel in Las Vegas. I was like, if we're
2:27
Speaker 1: going to do this, you got to have a little
2:29
Speaker 1: Elvis thing. But I will confess to being too cheap
2:31
Speaker 1: to pay for the Elvis impersonator.
2:33
Speaker 2: My lone regret.
2:36
Speaker 1: About the I War tuxedo did surprise my wife that way.
2:40
Speaker 1: But yeah, twenty four years, we feel pretty good.
2:42
Speaker 2: You know.
2:43
Speaker 1: It's uh, it's uh, you know, in the dark ages,
2:46
Speaker 1: it's a lifetime. So hey, we feel like we've accomplished something.
2:49
Speaker 1: And hey, the whole families together for the next few days.
2:53
Speaker 1: So we're excited here when when both both of our
2:56
Speaker 1: kids are here. So with that, let me give you
2:59
Speaker 1: a run down of this episode. There really is quite
3:03
Speaker 1: the theme basically, party divisions galore. Right, you have a
3:08
Speaker 1: growing internal fight inside the Republican Party, basically between Trump
3:13
Speaker 1: and those who are now growing more and more alarmed
3:16
Speaker 1: by how Trump is rebranding the party as the Party
3:20
Speaker 1: of Trump, the party of unethical behavior, the party that
3:24
Speaker 1: doesn't believe in the rule of law. It is a
3:26
Speaker 1: scary time if you're an elected Republican thinking you could
3:29
Speaker 1: survive the Trump era without and only have stains that
3:33
Speaker 1: you could wash off rather than tattoos that will need
3:37
Speaker 1: surgery to wash off. But hey, how are democrats celebrating
3:43
Speaker 1: this disunity on the right with a lot of disunity
3:46
Speaker 1: on their side of the aisle? The autopsy, So let's
3:50
Speaker 1: just say it's a fruitful amount of material for me
3:53
Speaker 1: to go through and to unpack for you and just
3:57
Speaker 1: sort of give you a sense of what matters and
3:59
Speaker 1: what doesn't. Here my guests today is a terrific interview.
4:03
Speaker 1: It's a j Purshuddie. He's the author of a book
4:05
Speaker 1: called dark Horse. In what this is about it's his
4:09
Speaker 1: time in the military, his time serving in Iran, rack
4:12
Speaker 1: in Afghanistan. It's pitched as a leadership book, but it
4:17
Speaker 1: really is more about his his time what was it
4:20
Speaker 1: like for a soldier in the military. He's there's a
4:24
Speaker 1: famous sniper on sniper success story. He became a decorated
4:29
Speaker 1: sniper in the Marines. But it's also about how he
4:33
Speaker 1: wanted to modernize training for the Marine Corps. We have
4:37
Speaker 1: a long conversation about that. We have a long conversation
4:40
Speaker 1: about war in general. I think it's a very appropriate
4:45
Speaker 1: day obviously to have that discussion. But this is a
4:49
Speaker 1: patriot that you're going to hear from who both lionizes
4:53
Speaker 1: the military, and worries about being politicized, worries about it
4:56
Speaker 1: being perverted and bent the will of politicians rather than
5:04
Speaker 1: staying what it has been, which is one of the
5:07
Speaker 1: more apolitical institutions, the last arguably the last institution that
5:12
Speaker 1: still has trust in America. And we're very hopeful, and
5:17
Speaker 1: I think that you'll hear in this conversation it is
5:19
Speaker 1: what is it going to take to make sure this
5:21
Speaker 1: doesn't get ruined? Because I promise you if this is
5:25
Speaker 1: this institution fails, we're in some deep you.
5:30
Speaker 2: Know what there.
5:31
Speaker 1: So with that, I will have also the time machine today,
5:35
Speaker 1: which will be let's just say it's thematic with what
5:39
Speaker 1: I am doing with this episode, and I will leave
5:42
Speaker 1: it at that.
5:42
Speaker 2: Take some questions, but.
5:44
Speaker 1: Look, we're going to begin with the news of the moment,
5:46
Speaker 1: and that is the pending Iron Deal that looks an
5:51
Speaker 1: awful lot like the deal that I think many of
5:53
Speaker 1: us told you it was eventually going to look like. Right,
5:57
Speaker 1: the President put himself in a situation where he had
6:00
Speaker 1: nothing but bad options on the table. But make no mistake,
6:03
Speaker 1: whatever this deal that is being negotiated, it makes Iran
6:08
Speaker 1: stronger in the region. Now is their military weaker. Yes,
6:12
Speaker 1: it is. So, I know you're saying, well, how can
6:15
Speaker 1: it their military be simultaneously weaker, and yet Iran comes
6:18
Speaker 1: out of this stronger. Well, they came out of this
6:20
Speaker 1: stronger because they were able to avoid all of the
6:24
Speaker 1: supposed goals that the United States had put on the
6:27
Speaker 1: table for this war and Israel. Now, Israel's goals were
6:31
Speaker 1: slightly different. In the United States, Israel made it was
6:34
Speaker 1: upfront about regime change that.
6:35
Speaker 2: Did not happen the United States.
6:38
Speaker 1: President Trump was for regime change until he wasn't until
6:41
Speaker 1: he was till he wasn't. Right, if it can't happen,
6:44
Speaker 1: then he was never for it. If it had happened,
6:46
Speaker 1: that was the plan all along.
6:47
Speaker 2: Right, we all know this.
6:51
Speaker 1: But the fact of the matter is we are going
6:55
Speaker 1: into a deal with Iran, cementing their influence over the
6:59
Speaker 1: straight of horm Moonves, which is something they did not
7:01
Speaker 1: necessarily have before this war began. So that's what makes
7:05
Speaker 1: this war a loss for President Trump, right, there is
7:08
Speaker 1: no perhaps you know, the good news is he will
7:12
Speaker 1: get them, get the Iranians to sign some sort of
7:16
Speaker 1: deal eventually limiting their ambition for nuclear weapons eventually, because
7:23
Speaker 1: remember that part of this deal. Essentially, what they're they're
7:26
Speaker 1: negotiating either some thirty or sixty day sees fire that agrees.
7:29
Speaker 2: To essentially to.
7:32
Speaker 1: Bring the straight of horror moves back to where it
7:34
Speaker 1: was now. The Iranians are not going to accept the
7:37
Speaker 1: premise that they don't get to control the situation there anymore.
7:41
Speaker 1: Which that's the big you know, that's the big damage
7:46
Speaker 1: that President Trump did. But the larger damage that he
7:49
Speaker 1: did is the diminishing of the United States of America, right,
7:53
Speaker 1: because we're capitulating we have to end this war essentially
7:57
Speaker 1: on terms that are more favorable or ron than we
7:59
Speaker 1: ever thought was possible.
8:02
Speaker 2: And that's what.
8:03
Speaker 1: Makes this such a such a brutal.
8:05
Speaker 2: And fundamental error, right.
8:06
Speaker 1: He whether you're a hawk and wanted this regime overturned
8:12
Speaker 1: or whether you're a dove, he went about this in
8:15
Speaker 1: the worst of all ways, right, And that's why there
8:19
Speaker 1: is no fans of this deal left or right. The
8:24
Speaker 1: way he went about this war was a huge, giant mistake.
8:28
Speaker 1: He had no plan for victory. And they did this
8:32
Speaker 1: because he bought Israeli intelligence and did not listen to
8:35
Speaker 1: the US intelligence. And that at its core is how
8:39
Speaker 1: this happened. Sure, Venezuela went too easy for him, and
8:43
Speaker 1: so thinking he could create a puppet state in Iran.
8:47
Speaker 1: I do fear that the White House's attitude about this
8:51
Speaker 1: is let's hurry up, sweep around under the rug, get
8:53
Speaker 1: the straight open. He'll pray that gas prices fall faster
8:57
Speaker 1: than is likely. Then we go in to Cuba, we
9:02
Speaker 1: take over Cuba, and people forget about Iran. The problem
9:06
Speaker 1: is it's going to take months for Iran to straighten
9:09
Speaker 1: itself out. It's going to take months for gas prices
9:12
Speaker 1: and energy prices to come down, and so this isn't
9:16
Speaker 1: going to be something that just goes away. And of
9:21
Speaker 1: course the longer term damage is the damage to the
9:24
Speaker 1: prestige in the United States of America. You know China
9:30
Speaker 1: now has I mean, look what they just did in
9:32
Speaker 1: the continent of Africa. They just waved off tariffs for
9:36
Speaker 1: them in the continent of Africa, while we are increasing
9:39
Speaker 1: tariffs for African countries, going out of our way to
9:42
Speaker 1: pull aid funding, going out of our way to not
9:46
Speaker 1: help with this Ebola crisis. Yeah, we're trying to help
9:49
Speaker 1: a little bit, but normally we're the United States, African
9:52
Speaker 1: America and before Donald Trump ruined the reputation of the
9:55
Speaker 1: United States around the world and ruined the soft power
10:00
Speaker 1: that gave the United States its inherent advantage over every
10:03
Speaker 1: other country on Earth. We are now not the necessary nation.
10:12
Speaker 1: And who knows if the who can handle the sea
10:14
Speaker 1: Bulat outbreak with the sophistication that we have. And remember
10:18
Speaker 1: why the United States always played lead on things like
10:23
Speaker 1: this and we're not now. This is not because we
10:26
Speaker 1: have some big heart. This is because we don't want
10:28
Speaker 1: freaking up Bulla to leave the continent and make it
10:31
Speaker 1: over here.
10:33
Speaker 2: Right.
10:34
Speaker 1: The necessity of soft power diplomacy for the United States
10:39
Speaker 1: is about our national security, is about protecting you and me,
10:44
Speaker 1: whether it's protecting us from disease or protecting us our borders.
10:50
Speaker 1: Soft power is necessary and we are just you know,
10:55
Speaker 1: we have pissed it away. Donald Trump has pissed it
10:58
Speaker 1: away left and right. And this weakness of the United
11:02
Speaker 1: States here where we're basically having to capitulate to Iran
11:06
Speaker 1: because we started a war that we didn't know how
11:08
Speaker 1: to win and we couldn't finish, and we're hoping, we're
11:13
Speaker 1: hoping that somehow Iran agrees to the same deal they
11:16
Speaker 1: agreed to with the Obama administration with its nuclear ambition.
11:24
Speaker 1: So I understand why the Hawks are really angry with him,
11:27
Speaker 1: because here's something else that this does. This will you know,
11:33
Speaker 1: I'm not as confident that this Iranian regime can keep
11:38
Speaker 1: oppressing its people without being overthrown at some point. History
11:43
Speaker 1: is riddled with despots that think they have control over
11:47
Speaker 1: their populations and then at some point they don't. As
11:52
Speaker 1: mister Assad, right as mister Kadafi, So you know, we
11:59
Speaker 1: were So I'm not confident that somehow this new more
12:04
Speaker 1: tyrannical regime who is now going to get money from
12:11
Speaker 1: the United States, unfrozen sanctions, everything. Donald Trump criticized the
12:17
Speaker 1: Obama deal from doing he now is doing and something
12:22
Speaker 1: Obama didn't do, which is hand control of the straight
12:24
Speaker 1: of or moves to the Iranians. But he had no choice.
12:32
Speaker 1: There were so many bad options here. He couldn't continue
12:34
Speaker 1: the war. Turns out we have some munition issues. I mean,
12:39
Speaker 1: we're delaying the sale of Taiwan I think unfortunately it
12:42
Speaker 1: looks like we're capitulating to China and doing that, but
12:44
Speaker 1: we're also delaying the sale of other weapons systems around
12:47
Speaker 1: the country.
12:48
Speaker 2: Because we're short.
12:49
Speaker 1: We can't afford it at the moment, so we bit
12:55
Speaker 1: off more than we could chew, didn't have an end game,
13:01
Speaker 1: didn't trust our own intelligence, went ahead and trusted Israeli intelligence,
13:06
Speaker 1: which is always over selling this. Look for them, it's
13:10
Speaker 1: this is an existential threat. They're very nervous about this.
13:17
Speaker 1: But you know what, Boebie, you got into bed with Trump.
13:20
Speaker 1: You lit the Democratic party relationships on fire on purpose.
13:26
Speaker 1: You went on some crazy power trip to try to
13:30
Speaker 1: keep power and went with your crazy right wingers who
13:33
Speaker 1: have led you down a ridiculous path. But the most
13:39
Speaker 1: important thing is you put your faith into Donald Trump.
13:41
Speaker 1: And ask anybody has ever put his faith into Donald Trump,
13:45
Speaker 1: and tell me where that's gotten them. My God, ask
13:49
Speaker 1: his own son whether you can put your faith in
13:53
Speaker 1: Donald Trump. So this is he had to end it.
14:02
Speaker 1: He could have escalated and made it worse, made the
14:06
Speaker 1: cost of getting out even worse. So I think that
14:12
Speaker 1: you have to It all depends on where you sit
14:16
Speaker 1: on this issue. If you never thought regime chains was
14:20
Speaker 1: that possible, then you're just relieved that he just took
14:23
Speaker 1: an exit ramp and he's taken the l Now they're
14:27
Speaker 1: going to spin like crazy in that sort of guy
14:32
Speaker 1: from the Star Wars bar scene that they've hired as
14:34
Speaker 1: their spokesperson who attacks like Monk Papeo and Ted Cruz
14:37
Speaker 1: and stuff. This guy Stephen Chung, who is just such
14:40
Speaker 1: an odd duck. Right, there's only one person that would
14:43
Speaker 1: ever employ him, right. Donald Trump is genius.
14:46
Speaker 2: About these guys.
14:47
Speaker 1: He knows how to get these higher people who would
14:52
Speaker 1: never get the job under any other circumstance, and it
14:54
Speaker 1: makes them absurdly loyal to him. It's genius, right, higher
14:59
Speaker 1: flawed people that know they they only have you to think.
15:05
Speaker 1: But it is why if you're wondering why the competence
15:09
Speaker 1: level of this administration has eroded dramatically from term one
15:13
Speaker 1: to team term two, it's because Donald Trump now is
15:17
Speaker 1: in charge of his own hiring, not responsible people like
15:22
Speaker 1: Mike Pence or writes previous. So here we are. It's
15:28
Speaker 1: a terrible deal. But I guess the only good news
15:34
Speaker 1: here is it could have been worse and trying to
15:37
Speaker 1: you know, this was just becoming more painful every day
15:41
Speaker 1: politically for him. Now there's going to be plenty out
15:45
Speaker 1: here who should say that, you know, if this is
15:47
Speaker 1: the right thing to do. You should ignore the politics,
15:50
Speaker 1: but Donald Trump doesn't. I mean, this is why he
15:52
Speaker 1: was temperamentarily unfit to ever be commander in chief because
15:55
Speaker 1: he cannot, he cannot not allow politics to affect how
16:00
Speaker 1: he makes decisions, and that is not obviously a trait
16:05
Speaker 1: you want in your commander in chief. So so here
16:09
Speaker 1: we are, and this is you know, we still got
16:14
Speaker 1: a long way to go of making this deal work.
16:19
Speaker 1: At best, if he can get the Iran nuclear deal
16:21
Speaker 1: back that Obama got, I guess he can declare not losing.
16:26
Speaker 1: It's not really a victory, but at least getting inspectors
16:30
Speaker 1: back into their nuclear program is not zero. It's not
16:34
Speaker 1: nothing that could have happened, probably without.
16:37
Speaker 2: Starting this war.
16:38
Speaker 1: They had already had they'd already done the effective air strikes,
16:41
Speaker 1: last year's airstrikes in the nuclear program.
16:44
Speaker 2: We're effective.
16:47
Speaker 1: This second escalation, this decision to launch a new war
16:55
Speaker 1: was that was the overreach. That was the mistake. And
16:58
Speaker 1: this is what's going to cause long term problems with
17:03
Speaker 1: our golf state allies. How much can they trust the
17:06
Speaker 1: United States? And they now are sitting here dealing with
17:09
Speaker 1: this Iranian regime in much longer than they anticipated. Two
17:14
Speaker 1: years ago, there was real, even six months ago, there
17:17
Speaker 1: was there was There was real.
17:19
Speaker 2: It wasn't just hope.
17:22
Speaker 1: There was enough evidence that look, this internal pressure, Kamani
17:27
Speaker 1: was gonna die, right he was getting up there, and
17:33
Speaker 1: we tried to rush things, and you know, the Israelis thought, hey,
17:36
Speaker 1: well we can, we can cause chaos and this can happen.
17:39
Speaker 1: But you know, the problem was the resistance isn't armed
17:42
Speaker 1: in Iran. That's a big problem. We waited if this
17:47
Speaker 1: was if the plan was to go in and help
17:51
Speaker 1: essentially the people take their country back, we should have
17:53
Speaker 1: gone in while the protests were happening, or gone in
17:57
Speaker 1: right after, or at least had more. It's clear we
18:00
Speaker 1: did not have the intelligence on the ground or the
18:03
Speaker 1: insight on the ground to truly know for sure what
18:08
Speaker 1: the capabilities were of this politic, of this political opposition
18:11
Speaker 1: that was forming on the ground. And we went in
18:16
Speaker 1: there on a wing, in a prayer and this is
18:21
Speaker 1: you know, and this is what he got. Look he
18:27
Speaker 1: you know, the biggest you know, the sort of the
18:31
Speaker 1: things that you could ignore the most over the last
18:33
Speaker 1: couple of weeks were all of his threats about, as
18:35
Speaker 1: you know, restarting the war he's not restarting this war.
18:39
Speaker 1: We were desperate, desperate, desperate, And that's the problem here
18:42
Speaker 1: when you're when you're so desperate to end something you're
18:46
Speaker 1: you're you're going to end up giving away more than
18:49
Speaker 1: you ever wanted to do. And of course this is
18:53
Speaker 1: exactly what many of us expected to happen three or
18:56
Speaker 1: four weeks ago when we outlined a month ago. I
18:58
Speaker 1: think you can go back probably to my April episodes
19:01
Speaker 1: and maybe even to some March episode. They said, he
19:04
Speaker 1: has put himself in a box where he is only
19:06
Speaker 1: where he can hope that the best outcome is bringing
19:11
Speaker 1: back the Iran nucleard. But before this war started, we
19:14
Speaker 1: didn't have a problem with the straight orfoar moves. And
19:17
Speaker 1: now we do, and now the Saudis do, and now
19:23
Speaker 1: U eight he does, and now Cutter does, and now
19:25
Speaker 1: Aman does. They all and now Bahrain does. This is
19:30
Speaker 1: not a problem before and now they have to have
19:32
Speaker 1: better They have to have their own relationships now with
19:35
Speaker 1: the run in ways that they were kind of hoping
19:37
Speaker 1: that over time this wouldn't They thought the United States
19:39
Speaker 1: and Israel would do their dirty work. So let's not
19:43
Speaker 1: forget that, right, this is a this is a whole
19:46
Speaker 1: region of a lot of uncomfortable partnerships where everybody's hoping
19:49
Speaker 1: somebody else will do the dirty work. But ultimately, again,
19:56
Speaker 1: wherever you come down on this, Donald Trump was the
20:04
Speaker 1: worst possible commander in chief for this moment. He doesn't
20:08
Speaker 1: have the spine to stick to something that's unpopular. He
20:14
Speaker 1: doesn't have the testicular fortitude to stick by a decision.
20:19
Speaker 1: He doesn't trust his own intelligence apparatus, And perhaps that
20:24
Speaker 1: goes back to his belief that everybody's against him in
20:28
Speaker 1: the US intelligence community. And he can't help but wonder
20:37
Speaker 1: how much his business relationships in the golf were encouraging him,
20:43
Speaker 1: because there's a lot of those guys get wealthier and
20:46
Speaker 1: wealthier and these and that region booms. If the Iranian
20:51
Speaker 1: regime falls, it will the dreams of making it a
20:57
Speaker 1: tourist attraction, the dreams of making it. All of that
21:01
Speaker 1: hinges on whether the dictatorship is surviving in Iran or not.
21:13
Speaker 1: So it's a big l for him. But getting out
21:20
Speaker 1: of the mess is something he had no choice but
21:23
Speaker 1: to figure out how to do, and it probably sets back,
21:30
Speaker 1: you know it. The real damage that this war is
21:34
Speaker 1: doing is in the prestige of the United States, our
21:38
Speaker 1: ability to influence others, the fact that he burned so
21:42
Speaker 1: many relationships with these terra feuds attacking allies that when
21:46
Speaker 1: he needed help, right, this is why this war was
21:51
Speaker 1: never thought through. If he wanted to do this, he
21:54
Speaker 1: might have spent two months repairing relationships with our allies
21:58
Speaker 1: in Europe, and maybe NATO would have helped us keep
22:00
Speaker 1: the Straight open and never had let the Iranians get
22:04
Speaker 1: control of the Straight. But he put the United States
22:09
Speaker 1: in a go it alone situation and made this outcome
22:15
Speaker 1: even more likely. When going in alone, He's made China
22:20
Speaker 1: look like the responsible nation to many around the world.
22:28
Speaker 2: So this is.
22:31
Speaker 1: At least he's finding a way out because continuing the
22:37
Speaker 1: war in this half asked way he was doing it.
22:41
Speaker 1: I mean, the only way this was going to succeed
22:43
Speaker 1: is if you put in ground troops, and that was
22:45
Speaker 1: going to extend this war for years, not months. And
22:51
Speaker 1: I'm not sure that Jewice was worth the squeeze. The
22:54
Speaker 1: fact of the matter is his policy was working on
22:58
Speaker 1: the Iranians. The initial policy right, choking them off financially,
23:05
Speaker 1: This was having a real impact. They were taking it
23:08
Speaker 1: out of their own people, but their people were fighting back.
23:13
Speaker 1: This is what happens when impatient people are in charge
23:16
Speaker 1: of big militaries. BB was impatient, Trump was impatient, and
23:21
Speaker 1: we got the situation we got, and we may have
23:22
Speaker 1: inadvertently strengthened this Iranian regime just when it was actually
23:27
Speaker 1: starting to weaken and weaken and weaken. And that, my friends,
23:33
Speaker 1: is the biggest cinema on this one. This episode of
23:37
Speaker 1: the Chuck Toddcast is brought to you by FanDuel and
23:40
Speaker 1: FanDuel Predicts. You can predict the playoff action all the
23:43
Speaker 1: way to the finals. With FanDuel Predicts, all you have
23:46
Speaker 1: to do is sign up and you can get a
23:48
Speaker 1: twenty five dollars bonus. Follow all the playoff dishes, swishes,
23:52
Speaker 1: wishes and misses. Every move is a potential pot twist.
23:55
Speaker 1: You get to predict the spread, the total points, and
23:58
Speaker 1: even the game winning moments that make the play ploffs
24:01
Speaker 1: where one run, one rebound, run shot changes everything. So
24:06
Speaker 1: from the opening tip to the final buzzers, stay locked
24:09
Speaker 1: in with every pass, every play, and every moment that
24:11
Speaker 1: will move us closer to crowning a champion. So sign
24:14
Speaker 1: up for that twenty five dollars bonus on FanDuel Perdix tonight,
24:18
Speaker 1: Memorial Day Night. Is this the last game of the
24:22
Speaker 1: Ephors Eastern Conference Finals? Nicks up three to zero. Well,
24:26
Speaker 1: the bookmakers certainly believe that the Knicks are going to
24:30
Speaker 1: close this out. They are favored. They were not favored
24:33
Speaker 1: in game three, they are favored in game four. I'm
24:35
Speaker 1: expecting the nixt to win. The k next to win big.
24:39
Speaker 1: I may ladder the spread here with the Knicks. So
24:43
Speaker 1: that's where my head is at. Good luck with yours.
24:46
Speaker 1: Remember this deal is offered by FanDuel Prediction Markets LLC.
24:49
Speaker 1: It's a registered Futures Commission merchant eighteen plus. Bonuses non
24:52
Speaker 1: withdrawable and expire seven days after receipt. Trading derivatives involve
24:56
Speaker 1: significant risk and may not be suitable for all investors.
25:00
Speaker 1: Manage your activity with fandal's consumer protection tools. Restrictions apply.
25:06
Speaker 1: See all of the terms at fandul dot com Slash predicts,
25:10
Speaker 1: Slash Bonus, hyphen offer hyphen terms speaking of a divided party.
25:26
Speaker 1: Something has kind of gotten lost over the last few days.
25:30
Speaker 1: So a couple of there's another new poll that came
25:33
Speaker 1: out that seemed to mirror the results of the New
25:37
Speaker 1: York Times post. So New York Times came out showed
25:39
Speaker 1: Donald Trump with that terrible job approval rating, Democrats with
25:43
Speaker 1: a double digit advantage on the generic ballot.
25:46
Speaker 2: They had it at eleven points. Well.
25:47
Speaker 1: The Wall Street Journal, which of course is conducted the
25:50
Speaker 1: Republican side by Donald Trump's polster, the Democratic side by
25:53
Speaker 1: Joe Biden and Kamala Harris's polster, found Democrats ahead by
25:59
Speaker 1: eight points on the generic ballot, had Donald Trump's very
26:03
Speaker 1: favorable rating or very strong job approval rating in the
26:07
Speaker 1: mid fifties, a twenty point decline from when they last
26:10
Speaker 1: measured five months ago, essentially while his job rating was
26:14
Speaker 1: over forty in this poll. And they're a little more
26:16
Speaker 1: voter centric in this powl, which is why you're going
26:18
Speaker 1: to see it in the super low forties. But to
26:20
Speaker 1: be at forty one percent in the Wall Street Journal
26:22
Speaker 1: pole again, which is co conducted by the President's polster,
26:26
Speaker 1: So to be at forty one percent in this poll,
26:29
Speaker 1: that tells you how bad things are. And at eight
26:31
Speaker 1: point that is much closer this Wall Street Journal pole.
26:34
Speaker 1: And they haven't put out a lot, They've only put
26:36
Speaker 1: out a couple of questions his job rating and this
26:39
Speaker 1: generic ballot question, it looks like more is coming. Well,
26:42
Speaker 1: I say, it looks like more is coming. I happened
26:45
Speaker 1: to know. I made an inquiry. I thought, hey, where's
26:47
Speaker 1: the rest of this poll? Are these the only questions
26:49
Speaker 1: that have been released? And I was told by those
26:53
Speaker 1: that are in charge of this poll that yes, those
26:54
Speaker 1: are the only questions that are public at the moment, and.
26:58
Speaker 2: So that that's a.
27:02
Speaker 1: They buried this in the story that hit Friday, that
27:07
Speaker 1: was headlined the week that broke Trump's control over Congress,
27:10
Speaker 1: basically the revolt that's taking place in the Senate over
27:13
Speaker 1: this January sixth slush fund that the President's trying to create,
27:17
Speaker 1: this one point eight billion dollars slush fund. But in there,
27:20
Speaker 1: uh forty one fifty seven was disapproved, disapproved. So and
27:23
Speaker 1: for the Wall Street Journal, this is an all time
27:26
Speaker 1: low high depending on how you want to look at it, right,
27:28
Speaker 1: all time low, and his job rating, all time high
27:31
Speaker 1: in his disapproval rating, And like I said, they had
27:34
Speaker 1: the eight point gap, which for them, that's a pretty
27:37
Speaker 1: that's a big gap now because of all the redistricting.
27:40
Speaker 1: If you believe my friend Patrick Graffini, you know, Democrats
27:44
Speaker 1: are going to need an eight to ten point generic
27:46
Speaker 1: ballotap to win control of the House. If they win
27:49
Speaker 1: every Trump plus nine district, they only have a high
27:53
Speaker 1: single digit majority. They would have a majority somewhere in
27:56
Speaker 1: the mid to high two twenties if they win that.
28:00
Speaker 1: It's something that they need. But the big thing they
28:02
Speaker 1: found was just fifty seven percent were strongly approved at
28:07
Speaker 1: the job he's doing. That is the all time low
28:12
Speaker 1: they have found in either of Trump's two terms as president.
28:16
Speaker 1: He had a dip in the low sixties in his
28:21
Speaker 1: presidency there, but it actually ended where his strong job
28:25
Speaker 1: of poople rating was in the seventies when he ended.
28:28
Speaker 2: Okay, even you.
28:29
Speaker 1: Know, after losing the presidency, he's still among Republicans where
28:34
Speaker 1: there already Now he's at fifty seven percent. Right, everything
28:38
Speaker 1: has gotten worse. This explains why he literally will take
28:41
Speaker 1: whatever deal the Iranians will take, as long as it
28:45
Speaker 1: means they get to keep negotiating on nuclear so he
28:47
Speaker 1: can claim that his ultimate goal to deny them a
28:50
Speaker 1: nuclear weapon is still going to be inside and all
28:52
Speaker 1: of this, and he can try to rationalize that what
28:55
Speaker 1: he did somehow got him closer to there. When actually
28:57
Speaker 1: what he did strengthen the Iranian regime. So it is,
29:05
Speaker 1: it is, it is massive political peril here less than
29:08
Speaker 1: six months to go, so he's you know, he's hoping
29:13
Speaker 1: the sooner he can end this Iran war, maybe this
29:16
Speaker 1: economy starts to recover. But you know, as we learned
29:20
Speaker 1: with supply chains back in twenty one and twenty two,
29:24
Speaker 1: this takes time. And so the idea that consumer confidence
29:29
Speaker 1: is going to bounce back before November extraordinarily unlikely the likely.
29:35
Speaker 2: Right now, we.
29:36
Speaker 1: Still inflation, Inflation hasn't peaked yet, right We're still dealing
29:40
Speaker 1: with rising gas prices, not lowering gas prices. So you know,
29:43
Speaker 1: maybe the price of oil will go down, but that
29:45
Speaker 1: is not going to change the issue with diesel, and
29:48
Speaker 1: that's not going to change the issue with fertilizer, and
29:50
Speaker 1: that's not it, right, you still have all these choke points.
29:52
Speaker 1: So it is you know, maybe by the end of July,
29:56
Speaker 1: early August, maybe by September, but we will be sort
30:01
Speaker 1: of knee deep in this campaign and it's hard to
30:04
Speaker 1: imagine that the perception that basically and that's the thing,
30:08
Speaker 1: you know, unlike the pandemic, which was the cause of
30:11
Speaker 1: our economic issues, and you could say certain policies made
30:14
Speaker 1: it a little bit worse than that it was necessary.
30:17
Speaker 1: This is all own goals by Donald Trump, Right, you
30:21
Speaker 1: know why do we have inflation? Donald Trump policies, That's
30:24
Speaker 1: why we have inflation. There's no other explanation. Right, his tariffs,
30:28
Speaker 1: his war or the rot right, that's why we have this.
30:32
Speaker 1: So his policies have created this cash crunch for so
30:37
Speaker 1: many middle on, working class Americans, and that's going to
30:41
Speaker 1: be hard to un you know, that's you can't AI
30:46
Speaker 1: video that away. I don't think you get to blame
30:51
Speaker 1: Biden and Kamala more for this.
30:54
Speaker 2: I am waiting for them. I assume they're going to
30:56
Speaker 2: blame that.
30:56
Speaker 1: The reason they're ending up in a nuclear deal that
30:58
Speaker 1: looks like the last nuclear deal, well, you know that
31:01
Speaker 1: was the problem. It's because that's there. You know, they
31:04
Speaker 1: believe that that's what that was the baseline to negotiate with.
31:07
Speaker 1: So somehow they're going to try to blame Obama for
31:09
Speaker 1: their bad nuclear deal. I promise you that's coming. That
31:14
Speaker 1: doesn't mean it's a it's a intepectual statement, but it
31:20
Speaker 1: is on this front. So that brings us to the
31:25
Speaker 1: other divide. That is roiling the Republican Senate right now,
31:28
Speaker 1: the fact that they cannot finish this deal to fund
31:31
Speaker 1: the rest of DHS through a reconciliation bill. Remember why
31:35
Speaker 1: they had to go to a reconciliation deal because the
31:36
Speaker 1: Democrats walked away, So they this is the Republicans are
31:42
Speaker 1: in this jam by Donald Trump because the Democrats jam them.
31:48
Speaker 1: So when you look back, right, why are the Senate
31:50
Speaker 1: Republicans in this situation. It was a situation that was
31:53
Speaker 1: set up by the original shutdown of DHS. Just worth noting.
32:00
Speaker 1: I'm one of those who isn't you know, what did
32:02
Speaker 1: they get out of it? You know, I think they
32:03
Speaker 1: got messaging out of it, and I think how they've
32:06
Speaker 1: you know, they executed their shutdown strategy fairly well in
32:10
Speaker 1: that it effectively helped them message and made it harder
32:17
Speaker 1: for Republicans to govern, especially since this party does not
32:20
Speaker 1: want to reach out to Democrats and even try to
32:22
Speaker 1: govern with Democrats. They don't make the attempts, so they
32:24
Speaker 1: make it easier for the Democratic leadership to keep their
32:28
Speaker 1: governing members. Right, those that feel very uncomfortable with shutdowns
32:32
Speaker 1: and don't like this thing, they've kept them there because
32:34
Speaker 1: the Trump White House treats them like garbage. Trust me,
32:38
Speaker 1: there are plenty of Democrats that are willing to legislate
32:42
Speaker 1: even with this White House, that this White House refuses.
32:44
Speaker 2: To work with them.
32:46
Speaker 1: And it's what drives John thunecrazy. It's what drives Center
32:48
Speaker 1: Republican's crazy because they know that under certain scenarios they
32:51
Speaker 1: could do this, but Donald Trump makes it impossible to
32:54
Speaker 1: do this. So they're stuck going down these reconciliation roads.
32:57
Speaker 1: And then what does he do right this whole It's
33:00
Speaker 1: interesting what sort of well, you know, I always say
33:03
Speaker 1: this with Trump, everybody has a line, it's just everybody
33:07
Speaker 1: don't have the same line. And this this ridiculous fund.
33:12
Speaker 1: I mean, what Todd Blanche is currently doing to the
33:14
Speaker 1: Department of Justice right.
33:16
Speaker 2: Is akin to what Robert F.
33:18
Speaker 1: Kennedy Junior is doing to the Department of Home of
33:22
Speaker 1: the heuth and Helmet.
33:24
Speaker 2: The Health Secretary.
33:27
Speaker 1: At HHS, right with what he is doing to the
33:30
Speaker 1: CDC and the FDA and completely blowing up, you know,
33:36
Speaker 1: just screwing with experts and completely blowing up what was
33:40
Speaker 1: pretty much accepted.
33:45
Speaker 2: Science.
33:46
Speaker 1: Essentially in his own way, Todd Blanche is now doing
33:48
Speaker 1: the same he is making the Department of Justice the
33:51
Speaker 1: Trump defense firm law firm. You cannot take anything this
33:56
Speaker 1: department puts out. Now they're now erasing January sixth press
33:59
Speaker 1: releases that was issued in the name of the Department
34:02
Speaker 1: of Justice but under the Biden Department of Justice and
34:05
Speaker 1: claiming that's propaganda. So essentially what they're going in there
34:08
Speaker 1: and is they're saying that the rule of law is
34:11
Speaker 1: no longer a part of the United States government because
34:15
Speaker 1: they're erasing whatever charges that the United States Justice Department,
34:25
Speaker 1: which happened to be run by a Biden appointee at
34:27
Speaker 1: that time, has put out. I don't think there's enough
34:34
Speaker 1: outrage about this yet. This is this is serious damage
34:40
Speaker 1: to our constitution, serious damage to the belief and the
34:43
Speaker 1: rule of law. Any charge that was ever brought to me,
34:48
Speaker 1: brought against me, I mean, I mean, I wouldn't trust
34:50
Speaker 1: a You know, it is easy to bring a case
34:53
Speaker 1: in saying circumstantially what the government has no credibility in
34:57
Speaker 1: whatever charge they bring because the government has a history
35:00
Speaker 1: of politicizing. The government has a history. So you know,
35:04
Speaker 1: either right, if you take the Justice Department at its
35:06
Speaker 1: word about what it believes about the Biden Justice Department.
35:09
Speaker 1: They've now undermined pretty much every charge they've ever brought
35:13
Speaker 1: or doing what they're doing. No matter what the endgame is,
35:17
Speaker 1: there is no trust you can have in this Department
35:21
Speaker 1: of Justice. Todd Blanche should be fired immediately. He should
35:28
Speaker 1: be impeached tomorrow. It is this is just beyond the
35:37
Speaker 1: scope of what should even be at all remotely acceptable.
35:42
Speaker 2: This guy's a menace. This is crazy.
35:47
Speaker 1: To then go in it's the fund itself was insanity
35:53
Speaker 1: and completely illegal. I am pretty convinced. You know, last
35:57
Speaker 1: time I checked, Congress had the power of the purse.
35:59
Speaker 1: If the federal government is going to set aside, the
36:01
Speaker 1: executive branch is going to attempt to set aside at
36:03
Speaker 1: one point eight billion dollars, where's the government getting that money?
36:08
Speaker 1: Has that been appropriated by Congress? I don't think this
36:11
Speaker 1: settlement at all is at all legal Until Congress weighs in.
36:16
Speaker 1: You're going to need congressional approval. And let me geut
36:19
Speaker 1: you what. There is no way there's a majority that
36:22
Speaker 1: will approve this. There may be twenty five Republicans who
36:26
Speaker 1: have the guts to go on the record on this
36:28
Speaker 1: and support Trump, and that's those who basically owe their
36:31
Speaker 1: political career to him. But the damage he's now done,
36:36
Speaker 1: he's so now divided his party that there are those
36:40
Speaker 1: that are not ever going to come around on this one.
36:44
Speaker 1: I mean Ron Johnson's criticizing this. That tells you something, Right,
36:51
Speaker 1: this is completely indefensible. It is a complete ripoff of
36:57
Speaker 1: the American taxpayer, and it is likely unconstitutional because again,
37:04
Speaker 1: where are they getting said money. Where's this money coming from?
37:07
Speaker 1: It has not been appropriated for this. So I think
37:11
Speaker 1: Congress has to approve this settlement. And I will tell
37:16
Speaker 1: you what. You know who wants Congress to take a
37:19
Speaker 1: vone on this. Every Democrat running running for office in
37:23
Speaker 1: twenty twenty six, you know who doesn't want to have
37:26
Speaker 1: to have this said to vote? Every Republican who thinks
37:29
Speaker 1: they still need Donald Trump support to win a Republican primary.
37:36
Speaker 1: But this is this is something. I don't think this
37:39
Speaker 1: one's going away. I don't know if they can massage
37:44
Speaker 1: their way around this one, like say, well, we'll have
37:46
Speaker 1: some oversight. Oversight by whom I mean, they're already doing
37:52
Speaker 1: paid to plan pardons. They're already erasing massive amounts of
37:58
Speaker 1: restitution that should be made to the either the US
38:00
Speaker 1: government ripped off consumers or ripped off business partners.
38:10
Speaker 2: So this is and it is.
38:12
Speaker 1: Look, and you know what's funny about Trump's problems now
38:18
Speaker 1: in the Senate is even if cornn wins his primary,
38:27
Speaker 1: he will have done it without Trump, which then will
38:29
Speaker 1: only make everybody feel freer. So now Trump's put himself
38:33
Speaker 1: in a situation where heads he loses, tails he loses.
38:39
Speaker 1: If Paxton wins that primary, Senate Republicans are even more
38:42
Speaker 1: pissed all the money that has to be spent and
38:45
Speaker 1: to drag an unethical, immoral man across the finish line,
38:49
Speaker 1: although it's something they've done before, isn't it for presidential races?
38:54
Speaker 1: But if Cornyn wins, it's going to be Trump's endorsement
39:00
Speaker 1: paston will be seen as the reason why Cornyn won.
39:03
Speaker 1: How about that? That, of course blows up a certain
39:06
Speaker 1: narrative that Donald Trump doesn't want to have. He certainly
39:09
Speaker 1: has an iron grip, it seems, inside the Republican party.
39:13
Speaker 1: But as the stronger he grips the party, the weaker
39:17
Speaker 1: it is in general elections. So this is likely the beginning.
39:25
Speaker 1: I mean, I think, now right, you throw in you
39:28
Speaker 1: do this slush fund, which is like an over your
39:30
Speaker 1: skis moment.
39:32
Speaker 2: You do the.
39:35
Speaker 1: You sort of you overreach on an orion war three
39:38
Speaker 1: months ago, and now you're here. I mean, this is
39:42
Speaker 1: you know, I know, we've all danced around it. Hellou,
39:45
Speaker 1: the duck is lame. The duck doesn't have one lame
39:48
Speaker 1: leg The duck has two lame legs. This thing is,
39:51
Speaker 1: this presidency is over in its effectiveness. It's now about
39:57
Speaker 1: can he manage this presidency to the end with not
40:00
Speaker 1: screwing up the country even worse, without screwing up the
40:03
Speaker 1: economy even worse, without dividing his party in even worse.
40:08
Speaker 1: But this presidency is no longer. I mean, this is
40:11
Speaker 1: a failed first two years, hard stop. What can he
40:16
Speaker 1: do in the last two years with a democratic Congress?
40:18
Speaker 1: Because of his failures in these first two years, he's
40:20
Speaker 1: almost inviting the likelihood of a democratic Congress.
40:24
Speaker 2: Now, can he do.
40:25
Speaker 1: Anything that's actually successful or at best, can he at
40:32
Speaker 1: least keep from the party from being in worse shape.
40:38
Speaker 2: We'll be chronicling there the whole way.
40:44
Speaker 1: Well, this episode of the Chuck Podcast is brought to
40:47
Speaker 1: you by Quint's. This time of year always makes me
40:49
Speaker 1: rethink what's in my closet. I'm trying to keep fewer things,
40:53
Speaker 1: but better ones, pieces that are well made, easy to
40:56
Speaker 1: wear all the time. Trust me, I am constantly on this.
40:59
Speaker 1: I have given up ties, so I'm looking for upscale casual,
41:02
Speaker 1: nice casual.
41:03
Speaker 2: Right.
41:03
Speaker 1: That's why I keep coming back to Quints. The fits
41:05
Speaker 1: are thoughtful, pricing actually makes sense, dirty little secret. Some
41:09
Speaker 1: of my birthday gifts came from members of my family
41:13
Speaker 1: using the code and ordering from Quints, and I love
41:16
Speaker 1: what I got. Quins makes some high quality every day essentials.
41:19
Speaker 1: They use premium materials like one hundred percent European linen,
41:22
Speaker 1: and they're insanely soft, flow knit active wear fabric. Their
41:25
Speaker 1: men's linen pants and shirts are lightweight, breathable, comfortable, basically
41:29
Speaker 1: the perfect layer for spring. I've got some of the
41:31
Speaker 1: linen shorts on right now. They're fantastic, trust me. And
41:35
Speaker 1: the best part is that their prices are fifty to
41:37
Speaker 1: sixty percent less than similar brands. How well Quince works
41:40
Speaker 1: directly with ethical factories, cuts out middlemen, so they're paying
41:44
Speaker 1: for quality, not the markup of the brand. Everything is
41:47
Speaker 1: designed to last and make getting dressed easy. This is
41:51
Speaker 1: one I wholeheartedly endorse I wear the products. I really
41:55
Speaker 1: like it. I can find my comfort zone here literally
41:59
Speaker 1: when I'm comfortable when and comfortable appearing in on air.
42:03
Speaker 1: So refresh your wardrobe with quints. Go to quints dot com,
42:07
Speaker 1: slash chuck c u hck for free shipping and three
42:10
Speaker 1: hundred and sixty five day returns. Now available in Canada too,
42:13
Speaker 1: So go to q u I n CE dot com
42:16
Speaker 1: slash chuck for free shipping three hundred and sixty five
42:20
Speaker 1: day returns quints dot com slash chuck use that code
42:30
Speaker 1: all right, which means I should pivot here a little
42:32
Speaker 1: bit to the DNC autopsy and what it was and
42:36
Speaker 1: what it wasn't. I mean, my goodness it is. First
42:46
Speaker 1: of all, Ken Martin talk about somebody who just has
42:49
Speaker 1: no has no ability to lead this party, right, he's
42:58
Speaker 1: the wrong person for this job. Weighing over his head.
43:04
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, think about it this way. He said, Hey,
43:06
Speaker 1: this autopsy is terrible. It's not going to be helpful,
43:08
Speaker 1: so I'm not going to release it. He gets pressured
43:11
Speaker 1: into doing it three weeks after he says he's never
43:13
Speaker 1: going to release it, so he folds and turns out
43:17
Speaker 1: He's right. This is like a ridiculous autopsy. It's a
43:20
Speaker 1: ridiculous document that actually dances around the party's problems, doesn't
43:24
Speaker 1: actually address the party's problems, which are simply the country
43:27
Speaker 1: thinks it's too liberal, right, they just come up with
43:30
Speaker 1: dancing around it and euphonisms. We'll culturally out of touch
43:33
Speaker 1: in this out of touch you know. The document is
43:35
Speaker 1: a classic document that you see all the time where
43:40
Speaker 1: in politics, where you never it's you know, the ingredients
43:43
Speaker 1: weren't wrong, it was the messaging. It's always the messaging.
43:46
Speaker 2: Oh no, no, no, no no.
43:47
Speaker 1: We had great ideas. People love our ideas, we just
43:49
Speaker 1: don't know how to sell them now. Sometimes the dogs
43:52
Speaker 1: don't like the dog food, you know. And we've seen
43:58
Speaker 1: a liberal party fix it to create a durable, larger
44:02
Speaker 1: majority the Canadians. The Liberal Party drop some of its
44:08
Speaker 1: far left aspects to thing grew its party. It's now
44:11
Speaker 1: got a more durable governing majority under Mark Carney, and
44:16
Speaker 1: the Conservatives look further away from power than ever before.
44:22
Speaker 1: He moved the party from the left closer to the center.
44:27
Speaker 1: It's it's you know, that's what makes this autopsy ridiculous,
44:34
Speaker 1: is it refuses to address the obvious issue in the room,
44:38
Speaker 1: which is the party's perception is too liberal. The consultants
44:42
Speaker 1: are too liberal, the candidates are too liberal. There's a
44:45
Speaker 1: litmus test like I you know, I had a member
44:49
Speaker 1: of Congress on my news for the show this past
44:51
Speaker 1: week in Sujas Super Money. He's a Democratic Member of
44:55
Speaker 1: Congress from Northern Virginia, and he described it. I said,
44:58
Speaker 1: what's the party's problem? He says, it looks like, you know,
45:00
Speaker 1: he says, we're like a country club with a bouncer
45:03
Speaker 1: and only certain people are allowed in. And there's these
45:05
Speaker 1: purity tests, which I think is accurate. Still dances around
45:09
Speaker 1: the issue, right, And it does. And I think this
45:14
Speaker 1: is the basic debate. Do center left people have to
45:19
Speaker 1: compromise with progressives or do progressives have to compromise with
45:23
Speaker 1: the moderates? And now progressives will argue they're always compromising
45:27
Speaker 1: with the moderates. They haven't gotten their candidate, right. It's
45:31
Speaker 1: the same issue we heard from the far right and
45:33
Speaker 1: the Republican Party for a long time. And hey, that's
45:35
Speaker 1: why they're holding on to Trump for dear life, because
45:39
Speaker 1: this is the last time that wing of the party's
45:41
Speaker 1: ever going to be dominant. Right, You're going to see
45:43
Speaker 1: the more center right part of the party try to
45:46
Speaker 1: rest control as soon.
45:46
Speaker 2: As Trump's out of there. And it's a similar fight. Now.
45:50
Speaker 1: I've told you I think the Democrats that the Progressives
45:53
Speaker 1: have a math problem. Their base is just not as
45:55
Speaker 1: big as the Republican base, which means you need more
45:57
Speaker 1: moderates to win general elections, and moderates are uncomfortable with
46:01
Speaker 1: some of the progressive stances right, moderates have the Progressives
46:04
Speaker 1: have to come closer to the moderates because they've not
46:07
Speaker 1: yet persuaded enough moderates to come close to them.
46:11
Speaker 2: Now, I'm not sure.
46:12
Speaker 1: There's an acceptance of that belief some of you progressives
46:15
Speaker 1: that are listening listeners to my podcast, I would love
46:19
Speaker 1: to hear hear some pushback on this, you know me,
46:23
Speaker 1: I will happily discuss it in a Q and A section,
46:29
Speaker 1: But that's sort of where I see it. But it
46:30
Speaker 1: doesn't matter right this autopes he didn't even attempt to
46:33
Speaker 1: confront it. Could have done it from both ways. So
46:35
Speaker 1: is the party got to, you know, need to broaden
46:38
Speaker 1: its appeal? Is it to burden here sort of just
46:42
Speaker 1: speak English?
46:43
Speaker 2: Right?
46:44
Speaker 1: Address the issues had on, but it was it was
46:50
Speaker 1: it was dancing around everything, and it was you know,
46:54
Speaker 1: this is what happens when you when you're trying to
46:56
Speaker 1: not offend anybody, you you in some ways you offend everybody,
47:02
Speaker 1: right because you don't quite get it right. And that's
47:05
Speaker 1: sort of my take on this. It's interesting that they
47:10
Speaker 1: chose to use gubernatorial races in a presidential year as counterpoints,
47:14
Speaker 1: and I just think that that that is somehow missing,
47:18
Speaker 1: not seeing the forest through the trees. You know, just
47:21
Speaker 1: because you win Washington Gov. And North Carolina Gov. Doesn't
47:28
Speaker 1: mean that you somehow are in better shape than the present.
47:32
Speaker 1: You know that, you know these races, you know, turnout
47:36
Speaker 1: is decided by the presidential race in these places, and
47:42
Speaker 1: there's no credit in the whole North Carolina Washington situation.
47:45
Speaker 1: You had fairly popular incumbents that we're leaving. So it's
47:49
Speaker 1: easy for a party to win another term as governor
47:53
Speaker 1: if the governor who's leaving is fairly popular. So it
47:59
Speaker 1: is it was. I don't think they quite got it there.
48:05
Speaker 1: It is interesting that they admitted and this to me
48:11
Speaker 1: is one of the things that they didn't fully appreciate,
48:13
Speaker 1: which is the only reason they won those senate races
48:17
Speaker 1: in the swing presidential swing states is because a bunch
48:21
Speaker 1: of Trump voters didn't vote in the rest of the
48:23
Speaker 1: Trump They came in their shotgun Trump voters, they vote Trump,
48:26
Speaker 1: and then they leave. Essentially, Alyssa Slockin, you know, lost better, right,
48:34
Speaker 1: but there were fewer voters in her race than there
48:36
Speaker 1: were in the presidential race. So I don't think there's
48:43
Speaker 1: a it, you know, I think in that sense, I
48:46
Speaker 1: think they will blow up the mindset that somehow Democrats
48:51
Speaker 1: senate candidates ran better. I think what it turns out,
48:54
Speaker 1: you know, Trump created a movement that was about Trump,
48:58
Speaker 1: and he's never been able to get it helpful to
49:00
Speaker 1: the rest of the Republican Party. Sure, and there's primaries,
49:03
Speaker 1: but it has never helped down the ballot too much.
49:08
Speaker 1: Though House Republicans are convinced that without Trump they couldn't
49:11
Speaker 1: they couldn't get the base out. But it's not like
49:14
Speaker 1: the base comes out when Trump's not on the ballot.
49:18
Speaker 1: And it turns out it's not like these voters end
49:20
Speaker 1: up end up helping if they don't actually vote down
49:25
Speaker 1: the ballot. They only come in and support Trump and
49:27
Speaker 1: they skip the Senate race, and they skip the House
49:29
Speaker 1: races and they keep going down the ballot. So but anyway,
49:34
Speaker 1: this is a this was a damned if you do,
49:36
Speaker 1: damned if you don't situation. It is, you know, when
49:45
Speaker 1: the report tries so hard. They didn't want to take
49:48
Speaker 1: direct shots at Biden, they didn't want to take direct
49:50
Speaker 1: shots at Harris, didn't want to take direct shots at
49:51
Speaker 1: the left, they didn't want to take direct shots at
49:54
Speaker 1: the business community, right, So it was it's a mealy
49:58
Speaker 1: mouthed bath mess that sort of misses the force through
50:03
Speaker 1: the trees. And you know what what is not clear is,
50:08
Speaker 1: you know, I wanted to see I was hoping that
50:12
Speaker 1: they would have this massive survey of Democrats, you know,
50:19
Speaker 1: of voters who voted for Biden and then voted for
50:21
Speaker 1: Trump and learned something from it. So I don't think
50:25
Speaker 1: this autopsy was taken very seriously. I think this was
50:28
Speaker 1: done because a whole bunch of people said there should
50:31
Speaker 1: it should be done. But I don't think it was
50:34
Speaker 1: really well thought out, and they didn't it didn't attempt
50:38
Speaker 1: to actually come up with its own research on this.
50:41
Speaker 1: So look, ultimately, the future of the Democratic Party is
50:44
Speaker 1: not going to be decided by the DNC, although they
50:46
Speaker 1: probably need a Look, I don't know Ken Martin, he's
50:51
Speaker 1: clearly not built for this job. Not every state most
50:54
Speaker 1: state party chairs. This is a different This isn't running
50:56
Speaker 1: a state party. This is a different type of job,
51:00
Speaker 1: and I think they need a different type of you know,
51:02
Speaker 1: they probably need somebody who's who's who's familiar with donors.
51:08
Speaker 1: They kind of need what they've you know, and frankly,
51:11
Speaker 1: they need somebody to like a more modern version of
51:13
Speaker 1: Terry mcaaliff, somebody who's a party cheerleader, who knows how
51:19
Speaker 1: knows how to keep donors in the fold, because right now,
51:22
Speaker 1: you know, the the national party committees are just money
51:25
Speaker 1: laundering operations. They're salilized money laundering operations. But if you
51:28
Speaker 1: don't have money coming through, then you can't even launder, right,
51:31
Speaker 1: you can't spit it out in the different directions. And
51:33
Speaker 1: so the DNC, you know, it's completely and it's cletely
51:36
Speaker 1: paralyzed at the moment. Donors don't want to give it
51:38
Speaker 1: money because they don't trust the leadership, So they probably
51:41
Speaker 1: need a new leader. I don't think this is Ken
51:43
Speaker 1: Martin's fault per se, you know, I come back. Ultimately,
51:48
Speaker 1: it's Schumer and Jeffreys, right, they're the leaders of this party.
51:51
Speaker 1: And then you throw in Pelosi in some ways, you know,
51:53
Speaker 1: has some soft power still.
51:57
Speaker 2: They have.
51:57
Speaker 1: You know, they could have taken a little more control
51:59
Speaker 1: of this, like they you know, blew it with Andrew
52:01
Speaker 1: Cuomo New York. You know, you know some of this
52:03
Speaker 1: stuff they blew it and how they handled Biden, right,
52:06
Speaker 1: So you know, right now, I think all the frustrations
52:10
Speaker 1: of weak Democratic leadership is being tossed at Ken Martin.
52:16
Speaker 1: Ken Martin is just sort of the punching bag, but
52:19
Speaker 1: it's not you know, he's the punching bag instead of
52:23
Speaker 1: getting mad at the at Biden, Harris, Schumer, Jeffreys, Pelosi. Right,
52:29
Speaker 1: God forbid any of those take ahead. So the good
52:35
Speaker 1: news for the Democrats is they don't need to be
52:39
Speaker 1: that unified to have success in the midterms. Bad news
52:43
Speaker 1: for them is, you know, you're going to have twenty
52:45
Speaker 1: autopsies running around masked as presidential campaigns in twenty seven,
52:51
Speaker 1: meaning you're going to have different theories of the case
52:53
Speaker 1: of what the party should be, and ultimately the voters
52:57
Speaker 1: are going to decide. Democratic primary voters are going to
52:59
Speaker 1: side the direction of the Democratic Party. And you know what,
53:03
Speaker 1: just like Republican primary voters decided, as much as the
53:06
Speaker 1: establishment wanted to go one direction, they kept saying, no,
53:09
Speaker 1: we want to go Trump's direction.
53:10
Speaker 2: We want to try that. So we're going to.
53:12
Speaker 1: Find out the party is the party. Primary voters are
53:15
Speaker 1: ultimately to tell us give the progressives, let them try
53:19
Speaker 1: to do this, or follow the Mark Karney approach that
53:25
Speaker 1: in some ways, probably as we will anime the Democratic
53:29
Speaker 1: Party debate over the next couple of cycles. A few
53:34
Speaker 1: small things that I want to make note of real quick.
53:37
Speaker 1: Look the Mike Duggan dropping out as an independent candidate.
53:41
Speaker 1: Those of us that would like to see independence, see
53:44
Speaker 1: if they can break through and actually govern, actually get elected.
53:49
Speaker 1: It's a big loss, right for that community. Dugan seemed
53:53
Speaker 1: like the best chance and independent had of winning in
53:57
Speaker 1: a governor's race. Dan Osborne and Bodner are now the
54:01
Speaker 1: probably the two leading independent candidates that have the best
54:03
Speaker 1: chance of getting elected in twenty twenty six. Osborne running
54:06
Speaker 1: for the Senate Nebraska, Bodner running for the Senate Montana.
54:11
Speaker 1: But I think Dougan dropping out, I think tells you
54:16
Speaker 1: is a huge sign of Jocelyn Benson's strength. She's the
54:19
Speaker 1: presumed Democratic nomine They actually haven't had their primers yet,
54:24
Speaker 1: but he you know, Dougan's theory of the case was
54:26
Speaker 1: that Benson was going to get dragged into a lefty primary,
54:30
Speaker 1: and she was it was going to be a race
54:32
Speaker 1: to the left, and James the likely presumptive Republican nominee.
54:35
Speaker 1: I say presumptive. He's got he's got the one of
54:38
Speaker 1: these Perry Johnson, one of those kooky guys that ran
54:41
Speaker 1: for president in twenty four. If you've seen his ads,
54:46
Speaker 1: you know he spends too much time in a botox
54:49
Speaker 1: factory or something, because man is that face stretched and tight.
54:54
Speaker 1: But he's a Michigan residence and he has his own money,
54:59
Speaker 1: and he's spending his money and all that stuff. But
55:01
Speaker 1: Duggan was counting on divisive primaries that would define both
55:06
Speaker 1: parties further from the center, and that's not what happened.
55:09
Speaker 1: In some ways, Duggan's candidacy was the success in this
55:14
Speaker 1: way is that it kept both John James and Jocelyn
55:18
Speaker 1: Benson focused on the center left and center right, respectively,
55:22
Speaker 1: out of fear that Duggan. They didn't want to leave
55:25
Speaker 1: any room for Dougan. So you know, if you're hopeful
55:31
Speaker 1: that you will get a more mainstream governor in Michigan
55:34
Speaker 1: rather than somebody too far to the left or do
55:36
Speaker 1: part of the right, then Dugan's our job. Then he
55:39
Speaker 1: already Duggan's already guaranteed success there. But I also think
55:46
Speaker 1: if Joscelyn Benson were a weaker candidate, Dugan would still
55:48
Speaker 1: be in this race. She has, I think been a
55:52
Speaker 1: bit underestimated, and she's just outworked. I think she outworked Dugan.
56:00
Speaker 2: You know, I.
56:01
Speaker 1: Think I think the mayor of Detroit, or the former
56:07
Speaker 1: Americ Detroit thought this was thought it was going to
56:09
Speaker 1: be easier to find support outside the sort of the
56:14
Speaker 1: eighty mile radius of Detroit, and he found out that,
56:16
Speaker 1: you know, his support dropped a lot, and they're just they.
56:20
Speaker 2: Didn't see the path.
56:21
Speaker 1: And then ultimately, I think the nationalization of African American
56:26
Speaker 1: voters right now, meaning how angry African American voters are
56:29
Speaker 1: going to be voting in twenty twenty six, A little
56:33
Speaker 1: more party loyalty is probably coming back, and Dugan was
56:36
Speaker 1: counting on being able to split off. He's very popular
56:38
Speaker 1: among African Americans.
56:39
Speaker 2: In Detroit.
56:40
Speaker 1: I think he was counting on that, and I think
56:42
Speaker 1: they saw. My guess is they saw some evidence that
56:45
Speaker 1: the African American voters that were once opened to Duggan
56:48
Speaker 1: were more likely going to fall back in line as
56:51
Speaker 1: party line voters after the fallout with this or this
56:57
Speaker 1: redistricting mess and the gutting of the voting rights. So
57:00
Speaker 1: when you throw all that together, I think you see
57:04
Speaker 1: And in some ways, by doing this, Dougan said he
57:06
Speaker 1: didn't want to play spoiler, and which means he didn't
57:10
Speaker 1: want to be the reason why there's a Republican governor.
57:13
Speaker 1: So in some ways Dougan was making it clear he
57:16
Speaker 1: did not want to see He did have a preference
57:19
Speaker 1: if he didn't get elected, of who we wanted to
57:21
Speaker 1: see elected, and by dropping out he made that clear.
57:29
Speaker 1: Telsa Gebbett, I think the bigger story here is the
57:36
Speaker 1: one not being covered, which is DNI is a failed
57:39
Speaker 1: reform post nine to eleven. Right, the whole idea of
57:43
Speaker 1: the DNI of having a Director of National Intelligence was
57:47
Speaker 1: to prevent stove typing of intelligence so that there was
57:49
Speaker 1: sort of one person sort of getting fed from all
57:53
Speaker 1: the different intelligence agencies from around the government. In theory,
57:57
Speaker 1: it was a good idea. In practice, it has not worked.
58:00
Speaker 1: I A has won the turf battle. Barack Obama made
58:02
Speaker 1: sure the CIA won the turf battle. Donald Trump made
58:05
Speaker 1: sure the CIA. You know, we've had Joe Biden. Right,
58:08
Speaker 1: we've had three straight presidents since the invention of D
58:12
Speaker 1: and I during the during during Bush's after you know,
58:16
Speaker 1: after the the government reforms post nine to eleven. And
58:19
Speaker 1: while Bush did everything he could to make D and
58:21
Speaker 1: I the central force. Literally, look I you know, I
58:26
Speaker 1: remember Trump's first Trump's, Obama's first dn I was Dennis Blair,
58:33
Speaker 1: I think it was, and it just didn't work. You
58:36
Speaker 1: always had bigger figures. I mean, you know, whether it
58:38
Speaker 1: was Lea Panetta, David Petraeus, John Brennan, you know, these
58:43
Speaker 1: were CIA centric kind of guys. But Gina Haspell, which
58:47
Speaker 1: was Trump's first CIA. Even John Radcliffe, who was at
58:51
Speaker 1: D n I and instead went over here and decided,
58:54
Speaker 1: you know, he's in some ways had more influence from
58:55
Speaker 1: C I A.
58:57
Speaker 2: Here's the thing.
58:57
Speaker 1: The concept behind D I A is a good eye
59:01
Speaker 1: and this doesn't work in practice. It probably the ideas
59:04
Speaker 1: person that sort of brings together all the intel probably
59:07
Speaker 1: belongs at the end National Security Council, and I know
59:10
Speaker 1: they've gotted this, but ultimately, when you're thinking about government,
59:14
Speaker 1: this didn't work as a standalone entity, and so instead
59:20
Speaker 1: and it's not going to be respected, and in some
59:22
Speaker 1: ways it's nothing but a vulnerability, right, whatever you think
59:24
Speaker 1: of Tulsey Gabberts, many people thought she was a vulnerability
59:29
Speaker 1: to outside intelligence sources. And she was literally in the
59:33
Speaker 1: one job that was a vacuum cleaner for Intel, and
59:37
Speaker 1: it just so I'm gonna be honest here, I think
59:41
Speaker 1: there were plenty of people in the Intel community who
59:42
Speaker 1: were nervous. You know, they may believe in rumors, they didn't.
59:45
Speaker 1: It didn't matter. She wasn't getting everything. She clearly wasn't
59:48
Speaker 1: brought in the room, she clearly wasn't treated as a
59:50
Speaker 1: senior official. But hey, she's not the first d and
59:55
Speaker 1: I sort of sort of marginalized, which means the office
59:59
Speaker 1: itself hasn't taken hold. So either restrengthen the office and
1:00:03
Speaker 1: that's up the Congress if they want to do that,
1:00:05
Speaker 1: or scrap it and put it inside and have this
1:00:08
Speaker 1: position essentially be part of the National Security Council, which
1:00:11
Speaker 1: probably makes a whole hell of a lot more sense,
1:00:16
Speaker 1: all right. I had a snarky thing to say about
1:00:19
Speaker 1: the two the sons of two presidents who continue to
1:00:23
Speaker 1: sort of show desperation to get attention.
1:00:27
Speaker 2: But you know what, I don't.
1:00:29
Speaker 1: As much as you want to roll your eyes at
1:00:31
Speaker 1: junior Donald Junior, or you want to roll your eyes
1:00:33
Speaker 1: at Hunter Biden, just remember their fathers really screwed them up.
1:00:37
Speaker 1: And I'll admit I have empathy for both of them,
1:00:40
Speaker 1: because you can't. It wasn't their fault that their fathers
1:00:48
Speaker 1: didn't bother them very well in different ways and put
1:00:54
Speaker 1: them in the situations that they ended up in. Yes,
1:00:58
Speaker 1: they're grown men and they've now made their own choice.
1:01:01
Speaker 2: But I have some empathy, I'll admit. All right. With that,
1:01:08
Speaker 2: we'll sneak in a brick.
1:01:10
Speaker 1: And on the other side, you're gonna hear from aj Purshudy,
1:01:16
Speaker 1: a veteran of Iran, the Iraq and Afghanistan wars, one
1:01:20
Speaker 1: of the greatest American snipers in our military history.
1:01:26
Speaker 2: And that's an amazing story that he shares. But this
1:01:29
Speaker 2: is his book.
1:01:31
Speaker 1: Dark Horse really is an important read if you want
1:01:34
Speaker 1: to understand today's warfare.
1:01:37
Speaker 2: And with that let's take a break.
1:01:44
Speaker 1: This episode of the Chuck Podcast is brought to you
1:01:46
Speaker 1: by Soul. So. If you love that end of the
1:01:49
Speaker 1: day unwined, but hate the hangover, Soul's out of Office
1:01:53
Speaker 1: is for you. These sparkling THHC drinks and gummies give
1:01:56
Speaker 1: you the same relaxed social feeling without the alcohol, without
1:01:59
Speaker 1: the calories, and without the crash. Soul is a wellness
1:02:03
Speaker 1: brand that believes feeling good should be fun and easy.
1:02:06
Speaker 1: Soul specializes in delicious hemp derived THHC and CBD products
1:02:11
Speaker 1: designed to boost your mood and help you unwind. Their
1:02:15
Speaker 1: best selling out of Office Gummies were designed to provide
1:02:17
Speaker 1: a mild, relaxing buzz, boost your mood, and enhance creativity
1:02:21
Speaker 1: and relaxation.
1:02:22
Speaker 2: With five different.
1:02:23
Speaker 1: Strengths, you can tailor the dose to fit your vibe.
1:02:26
Speaker 1: So also has a variety of products specifically designed to
1:02:29
Speaker 1: help you get a better night's rest, including their top
1:02:31
Speaker 1: selling Sleepy Gummies, a fan favorite for deep, restorous sleep.
1:02:36
Speaker 2: Look.
1:02:36
Speaker 1: I have made no secret, I am a believer in
1:02:39
Speaker 1: this stuff, in cannabis and hemp derived. I do not
1:02:42
Speaker 1: partake in alcohol. For the most part, I think this
1:02:45
Speaker 1: stuff is a lot safer than alcohol, a lot less
1:02:47
Speaker 1: addictive than alcohol. And yes, I have to say I
1:02:50
Speaker 1: love these drinks. It is the glass of wine and
1:02:53
Speaker 1: you know, after work, that's what this is. So no
1:02:56
Speaker 1: hangover and no excess calories like this.
1:03:00
Speaker 2: I'm a big fan.
1:03:01
Speaker 1: So bring on the good vibes and treat yourself to
1:03:03
Speaker 1: sold today. Right now, Soul is offering my audience thirty
1:03:06
Speaker 1: percent off your entire order. Go to getsoul dot com
1:03:09
Speaker 1: and use the word podcast that's getsol dot com promo
1:03:13
Speaker 1: code podcast for thirty percent off. And yes, I too,
1:03:17
Speaker 1: am a customer, all right, So joining me now is
1:03:23
Speaker 1: actually a fellow podcast host, AJ Pursud.
1:03:25
Speaker 2: He's out with a new book that's.
1:03:26
Speaker 1: Called Dark Horse. He has had an incredibly distinguished career
1:03:31
Speaker 1: in the Marines, and his book is it's interesting. I
1:03:37
Speaker 1: signed up to interview Aj based on the description of
1:03:40
Speaker 1: the book, and I don't say this to be dismissive
1:03:42
Speaker 1: of the description, but the book is a lot better
1:03:46
Speaker 1: and a lot different than I expected it to be,
1:03:48
Speaker 1: and I enjoyed it quite a bit, and I think
1:03:50
Speaker 1: it's must reading for anybody that wants to understand modern
1:03:56
Speaker 1: warfare in the United States. In the US military, purely
1:04:00
Speaker 1: from the perspective of a marine, and Aja certainly has
1:04:03
Speaker 1: his stories and an incredible story that I hope we
1:04:06
Speaker 1: can spend some time talking about a sniper on a
1:04:10
Speaker 1: sniper event where we took out somebody who was able
1:04:14
Speaker 1: to take out somebody who had killed quite a few
1:04:17
Speaker 1: marines over the years in the Second Iraq War. But
1:04:21
Speaker 1: there's a lot to talk about with Aj, and I'm
1:04:24
Speaker 1: looking forward to this conversation. So AJ, welcome to the podcast.
1:04:27
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me on the podcast.
1:04:28
Speaker 2: Big fan of the show. Happy to be sitting here.
1:04:31
Speaker 2: Also extremely nervous to be sitting down with someone who
1:04:34
Speaker 2: I respect and revere as much as yourself. So hopefully
1:04:37
Speaker 2: I don't trip over myself too much. That's all right.
1:04:39
Speaker 1: I will not live up to your expectations, right I will.
1:04:44
Speaker 2: So let me start with.
1:04:47
Speaker 1: You know, I remember the first book I read about
1:04:52
Speaker 1: Vietnam from the perspective of someone who served, who was there,
1:04:57
Speaker 1: and these books really didn't start hitting the shelves that
1:05:02
Speaker 1: were really I think until the early eighties to mid eighties,
1:05:09
Speaker 1: and it really sort of painted a more honest but
1:05:11
Speaker 1: I think we all know now a more honest picture
1:05:13
Speaker 1: of what it was like and what struck me about
1:05:17
Speaker 1: your memoirs that this felt like, this was this was
1:05:20
Speaker 1: the perfect timing. And I'm curious, you know, if you
1:05:24
Speaker 1: wrote this book ten years ago versus today, how different
1:05:28
Speaker 1: would it be.
1:05:31
Speaker 2: Well, that's a fantastic I have not been asked that before.
1:05:35
Speaker 2: I wouldn't have learned as much. I think it would
1:05:37
Speaker 2: have been surface level. I think that you would have
1:05:39
Speaker 2: gotten my worldview in you know, at two thousand and sixteen, right.
1:05:45
Speaker 2: I did a lot of learning through my career, especially
1:05:47
Speaker 2: at the end of my career, when you start to
1:05:49
Speaker 2: have the ability the luxury of looking back on a
1:05:52
Speaker 2: lifetime and then you solidify a lot of the learning
1:05:56
Speaker 2: of the lessons. I think that you kind of had to, like,
1:05:58
Speaker 2: you know, smash your way through a wall a certain
1:06:00
Speaker 2: amount of times. I got to look back on that, so,
1:06:03
Speaker 2: you know, it's very reflective. I think that there's a
1:06:05
Speaker 2: lot of introspection inside of it that I don't know
1:06:08
Speaker 2: that I had the maturity or I would have had
1:06:10
Speaker 2: the maturity you know, at you know, twenty nine as
1:06:13
Speaker 2: I would have thirty nine when I started writing.
1:06:15
Speaker 1: I asked this because I think about this all the
1:06:18
Speaker 1: time now. With history books versus narrative reporting in real time,
1:06:23
Speaker 1: and we're all trying to learn what is happening, what happened,
1:06:28
Speaker 1: and sometimes you don't get the full picture for twenty years,
1:06:32
Speaker 1: twenty five years, I think these days, and I the
1:06:35
Speaker 1: longer I've gone about this, the more I feel like
1:06:37
Speaker 1: somewhere in that fifteen to twenty five year period is
1:06:40
Speaker 1: when is when your first hand accounts have exactly what
1:06:47
Speaker 1: you just described. There's a perspective and a reflective nature
1:06:51
Speaker 1: that explains the why instead of the what. So my
1:06:54
Speaker 1: guess is ten years ago, you'd have done a great
1:06:56
Speaker 1: job telling us what and there's this book does a
1:06:59
Speaker 1: great job of telling you what your life was like
1:07:02
Speaker 1: at each moment in time when you were different different tours.
1:07:06
Speaker 1: But what made your memoir and what made this such
1:07:10
Speaker 1: a compelling read is what clear I think's clear to
1:07:13
Speaker 1: me is you were looking at what happened to you
1:07:18
Speaker 1: from the perspective of an observer.
1:07:20
Speaker 2: Is that fair? Yeah? I would say that, Yeah, I
1:07:22
Speaker 2: would agree. You know, I think that's to a little
1:07:25
Speaker 2: bit of your earlier point is why now? In some
1:07:29
Speaker 2: ways is I think that leadership, especially right now, is
1:07:32
Speaker 2: extremely relevant and somehow in short supply. So what this
1:07:37
Speaker 2: is kind of a call to action for readers. It's
1:07:41
Speaker 2: called action for Americans. You know, one of the things
1:07:43
Speaker 2: I learned in combat is that you can't survive combat
1:07:47
Speaker 2: by yourself. You have to rely on one another. And
1:07:49
Speaker 2: so through that kind of journey, I wanted to I
1:07:52
Speaker 2: wanted to express what I had learned along the way,
1:07:55
Speaker 2: the camaraderie, the teamwork, the bonds that I made through that,
1:07:59
Speaker 2: and realize this idea of collectivism, you know, to come
1:08:01
Speaker 2: back and kind of come back with this, you know,
1:08:04
Speaker 2: the elixir, if you will, from a writing standpoint of saying, hey,
1:08:08
Speaker 2: we've figured this out. We want to give this back
1:08:10
Speaker 2: to the American public. And so it was really fun
1:08:12
Speaker 2: and reflective to go through that. But you're right, it
1:08:14
Speaker 2: would have been a play by play in an account,
1:08:17
Speaker 2: but it wouldn't have had the introspection and the reflection
1:08:20
Speaker 2: had I not spent some time after retirement to be
1:08:22
Speaker 2: able to write it.
1:08:24
Speaker 1: So you listed seventeen, What do you think your seventeen
1:08:27
Speaker 1: year old self would have thought of this book?
1:08:30
Speaker 2: I thought I thought it would have been a work
1:08:31
Speaker 2: of fiction. You know, there's this really cool thing I
1:08:37
Speaker 2: work with a lot of friends and mentor people that
1:08:41
Speaker 2: I mentor along the way is I have this idea
1:08:44
Speaker 2: of my ten year old self, and I include a
1:08:46
Speaker 2: picture of my ten year old self in the book,
1:08:48
Speaker 2: and it's from me. The very first time I meet
1:08:51
Speaker 2: a marine sniper on the USS Comstock on fleet week
1:08:54
Speaker 2: in a monter A bay, and I think this guy's
1:08:58
Speaker 2: larger than life. I get behind a bear at fifty
1:09:00
Speaker 2: caliber snipe rifle. I never would have dreamed in a
1:09:03
Speaker 2: million years that I would have been and had the
1:09:05
Speaker 2: career that I did. And so I include that as
1:09:08
Speaker 2: a reminder to myself to dream, to continue to dream
1:09:11
Speaker 2: even today, to have this idea of a continued you know,
1:09:15
Speaker 2: don't be afraid of these really outlandish dreams because you
1:09:18
Speaker 2: can work towards that. The love that I found writing
1:09:22
Speaker 2: this book.
1:09:22
Speaker 1: Bear with me, forgive me, sir, No, you're fine.
1:09:27
Speaker 2: The love that I found in writing this book was
1:09:30
Speaker 2: realizing that I didn't get here alone. This book is
1:09:33
Speaker 2: a thank you. It's a love letter to the people
1:09:36
Speaker 2: that have shaped my life. I came from a you know,
1:09:40
Speaker 2: a not very well to do family, kind of an
1:09:42
Speaker 2: immigrant background in northern California. I was very small. I didn't,
1:09:46
Speaker 2: people wouldn't have looked at me and ever said Marine
1:09:49
Speaker 2: Force recon scout sniper for one. But then also I
1:09:52
Speaker 2: had myself limiting beliefs of what I could accomplish in
1:09:55
Speaker 2: my life, and so people along the way helped build
1:09:58
Speaker 2: those scaffoldings. And so this whole book is a love
1:10:01
Speaker 2: letter to people, saying or to telling people that I
1:10:04
Speaker 2: appreciate them and I've seen them, and then a call
1:10:07
Speaker 2: to action for other future leaders to say, hey, achieve
1:10:10
Speaker 2: your own success, whatever that is and whatever industry or
1:10:13
Speaker 2: whatever life that is. And then the last step is
1:10:16
Speaker 2: to turn around and help somebody else out allow them
1:10:19
Speaker 2: to see their own potential. And so you know, my
1:10:22
Speaker 2: publisher may not like this, but what I tell people
1:10:24
Speaker 2: is if you want to know what I've learned over
1:10:26
Speaker 2: twenty one years of service, I wrote it on the
1:10:30
Speaker 2: last page of the book. It's called letter to the Leader.
1:10:33
Speaker 2: If you want to know why I think the way
1:10:35
Speaker 2: that I do or how I learn those lessons, they're
1:10:38
Speaker 2: in the book itself. My seventeen year old self, for
1:10:41
Speaker 2: my ten year old self, wouldn't have believed that this
1:10:42
Speaker 2: was the story. And so I want to give permission
1:10:45
Speaker 2: to young Americans or people of all walks of life,
1:10:48
Speaker 2: the permission to believe in theirselves.
1:10:51
Speaker 1: Well, look, I think that you know, if my son
1:10:54
Speaker 1: were thinking about it and listening, I'd want them to
1:10:55
Speaker 1: read this book first. If you know, if I was
1:10:58
Speaker 1: supportive of the decision and I had a relative who wasn't,
1:11:02
Speaker 1: I would want them to read this book, you know,
1:11:04
Speaker 1: just to understand the holistic aspect of this. And it
1:11:07
Speaker 1: feels like you got out of the Marines what so
1:11:12
Speaker 1: you know is, look, there's a lot of negative that
1:11:15
Speaker 1: comes out with when you sign up to defend the
1:11:17
Speaker 1: United States of America. You've got to follow orders, you
1:11:19
Speaker 1: got to do some things that whether you agree with
1:11:21
Speaker 1: them or not, you've your hair agreed. That's right, you've
1:11:24
Speaker 1: agreed to do this. But at the same time you
1:11:27
Speaker 1: seem to also experience the rewards that come with it
1:11:33
Speaker 1: if you fulfill this public service, and that it is
1:11:36
Speaker 1: a It is an incredible way to climb up the
1:11:39
Speaker 1: ladder in America, is it not totally?
1:11:42
Speaker 2: I think that, you know, I think the United States
1:11:45
Speaker 2: military is one of the last bastions of the American
1:11:48
Speaker 2: dream of where a young kid from nowhere can enter
1:11:52
Speaker 2: from the lower class do twenty years of service, gain
1:11:55
Speaker 2: a whole bunch of skills out within the service, and
1:11:58
Speaker 2: then exit with a you know, a retirement into the
1:12:01
Speaker 2: middle class. It's a great opportunity. And so at the
1:12:04
Speaker 2: center of this entire thing, it's so hard to be
1:12:07
Speaker 2: able to categorize the book. At the center of it
1:12:10
Speaker 2: for me is service and service to the greater good,
1:12:14
Speaker 2: whatever that may be. And so it's kind of a
1:12:15
Speaker 2: call to action for that.
1:12:17
Speaker 1: So you were an Eagle Scout, and so what surprises
1:12:20
Speaker 1: me about you going from eagle scout as you went
1:12:21
Speaker 1: to eagle Scout and listy. You didn't try to do
1:12:25
Speaker 1: ROTC and come in as an officer, right?
1:12:28
Speaker 2: Explain nine to eleven. Nine to eleven, I was seventeen
1:12:32
Speaker 2: years Excuse me. I was sixteen years old and a
1:12:34
Speaker 2: senior in high school, and I watched the Twin Towers fall,
1:12:37
Speaker 2: and you know, I watched it in real time with
1:12:40
Speaker 2: the rest of my classmates. You know. Having an immigrant background,
1:12:44
Speaker 2: for me, I got a chance to look at the
1:12:46
Speaker 2: world through what I call in immigrant's eyes. My father
1:12:48
Speaker 2: raised me with the profound love of the United States
1:12:51
Speaker 2: and what it represented, and so it felt like the
1:12:54
Speaker 2: natural next right, step to defend those values that I
1:12:57
Speaker 2: felt were under attack. You know, I had conversationsbviously with
1:13:00
Speaker 2: my mom and my anti war you know, immigrant father,
1:13:03
Speaker 2: and I said, Dad, this is this is what you
1:13:05
Speaker 2: raised me to be, right. And he didn't want you
1:13:07
Speaker 2: to do.
1:13:07
Speaker 1: This, No he was. He was not happy.
1:13:10
Speaker 2: Huh.
1:13:10
Speaker 1: And and you listening at seventeen? You needed their permission,
1:13:13
Speaker 1: right I did.
1:13:14
Speaker 2: That was a tough conversation for my marine recruiter. Ill
1:13:16
Speaker 2: tell you what, the hard hardest job in the Marine
1:13:18
Speaker 2: Corps for sure.
1:13:20
Speaker 1: I'm curious when did you know you had and how
1:13:24
Speaker 1: do you How does one identify a skill like being
1:13:29
Speaker 1: a sniper skill? I mean, is it just is this
1:13:31
Speaker 1: something you knew from the beginning? You talked about meeting
1:13:34
Speaker 1: that sniper at ten years old and it sort of
1:13:36
Speaker 1: drew you to it. But you know, is this a
1:13:39
Speaker 1: skill that you had? Is this a gift?
1:13:42
Speaker 2: Or did you learn I have to attribute other people?
1:13:47
Speaker 2: I have to attribute people along the way. I suffered from,
1:13:50
Speaker 2: you know, incredible amounts of self doubt, low self efficacy,
1:13:54
Speaker 2: you know, kind of a poverty mindset. If you will,
1:13:56
Speaker 2: you know, and I'm not going on this whole you know,
1:13:58
Speaker 2: being you know the system of the I'm responsible for
1:14:01
Speaker 2: my own destiny. I understand that, but I had such
1:14:05
Speaker 2: a low self image of what I could accomplish. And
1:14:08
Speaker 2: so I remember there was a gentleman by the name
1:14:10
Speaker 2: of Gunnery Sergeant Ricky Jackson. And this was right after
1:14:13
Speaker 2: Operation Iraqi Freedom Ion. So two thousand and three. I'm
1:14:17
Speaker 2: now eighteen years old. I'm still not shaving my face
1:14:19
Speaker 2: at this time, and I have a conversation with Gunny
1:14:23
Speaker 2: Jackson about wanting to become a scout sniper. And he's
1:14:26
Speaker 2: the first person who never laughed at me when I
1:14:30
Speaker 2: told him my dreams. And Gunny Jackson, as you know,
1:14:33
Speaker 2: I'm sure he read in the book, right, is somebody
1:14:35
Speaker 2: that I want to uplift and hold as this example
1:14:38
Speaker 2: for other Marines to emulate. He came from the depths
1:14:41
Speaker 2: of poverty. He had to fight his own way out
1:14:42
Speaker 2: of his own you know, his own story, to become something.
1:14:46
Speaker 2: And when he got there, he wasn't a jerk about it.
1:14:48
Speaker 2: He helped other people, you know, as a sniper. I believe
1:14:51
Speaker 2: in trajectory, and trajectory early has exponential effects down the line.
1:14:56
Speaker 2: I think that if I were to attribute the one
1:14:57
Speaker 2: single person who affected my life the most, it's Gunnery
1:15:00
Speaker 2: Sergeant Ricky Jackson. And so Gunnery Sergeant Jackson gave me
1:15:05
Speaker 2: permission to believe in myself and then he wore me
1:15:08
Speaker 2: out right. So then he like made me earn it. Right. So,
1:15:11
Speaker 2: you can't just want things. You can't just wish for things.
1:15:14
Speaker 2: You have to work for them. And he taught me that.
1:15:16
Speaker 2: And he is a tall Southern gentleman with a you know,
1:15:20
Speaker 2: traps you know for a neck, right, you know, And
1:15:23
Speaker 2: he wore my little butt out, you know, to kind
1:15:24
Speaker 2: of get me ready for it. And he stood up
1:15:26
Speaker 2: for me when I needed to be there, and he
1:15:28
Speaker 2: gave me and he carried the load both phys physically
1:15:31
Speaker 2: and emotionally before I could carry it myself.
1:15:34
Speaker 1: So tell explain what training to be a sniper is like,
1:15:38
Speaker 1: because it's different.
1:15:40
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a lot of running, right, you know, So
1:15:43
Speaker 2: you have to get into this, you know, this physical shape.
1:15:45
Speaker 2: The difference between us and professional athletes, besides you know,
1:15:49
Speaker 2: gobs of funding and professional you know, other professionals, professionals
1:15:53
Speaker 2: that make you successful is a lot of grit, and
1:15:55
Speaker 2: sometimes grit is best earned while doing the hard work.
1:16:00
Speaker 2: And so he taught me that, you know, the Marine Corps.
1:16:03
Speaker 2: You know, we didn't promise you a rose guard. You're
1:16:04
Speaker 2: not going to come. You know, thing's coming easy in
1:16:06
Speaker 2: the Marine Corps. So there's a lot of pain, there's
1:16:08
Speaker 2: a lot of misery, and there's a lot of suffering.
1:16:10
Speaker 2: But what he did was he gave me a north star.
1:16:13
Speaker 2: He gave me something to look towards and allowed me
1:16:15
Speaker 2: to build towards that. And then him and his wife
1:16:17
Speaker 2: built this model to help get me ready for that.
1:16:20
Speaker 2: And then you take a sniper in doc right, and
1:16:22
Speaker 2: an indoc is like a screening that you have to
1:16:24
Speaker 2: go through, and it's a week long process to basically
1:16:27
Speaker 2: weed people out. And there's this huge, huge, like physical
1:16:30
Speaker 2: and mental and big time emotional burden or hurdle that
1:16:33
Speaker 2: you have to get over.
1:16:35
Speaker 1: So what are some of the ways that people do
1:16:37
Speaker 1: get weeded at?
1:16:38
Speaker 2: Is it? I cite? Is it? What is it? Honestly?
1:16:41
Speaker 2: Attention to detail? So very early on is as a
1:16:45
Speaker 2: sniper you have to be So they start like inculcating
1:16:49
Speaker 2: this very very early into us. Remember when I take
1:16:52
Speaker 2: the sniper in dock, I'm nineteen years old. It's very impressionable,
1:16:55
Speaker 2: very moldable and so. But also they have to hold
1:16:58
Speaker 2: this accountable. So physical becoming a physical specimen at some
1:17:02
Speaker 2: level is a is a is a is a guarantee.
1:17:05
Speaker 2: You have to do that, But that's a that's a
1:17:07
Speaker 2: right of passages.
1:17:08
Speaker 1: A lot of times you're on your own. You don't
1:17:10
Speaker 1: have anybody else. You know, as you're moving from perch
1:17:14
Speaker 1: to perch, you're you're you're not you're not getting a
1:17:16
Speaker 1: lot of cover yourself because you're the ones having You're
1:17:18
Speaker 1: you're going out on your own to be the cover.
1:17:20
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, So you have to have this idea of
1:17:23
Speaker 2: of of like you have to build this idea of
1:17:26
Speaker 2: self dependency, right, this resilience inside of that. You know,
1:17:29
Speaker 2: we joke that like you know, some places on Campenalton,
1:17:32
Speaker 2: nobody can hear you scream, right, is because you're on
1:17:35
Speaker 2: your own. You're out there by yourself or with generally
1:17:37
Speaker 2: work at least in a partner pair, and you only
1:17:40
Speaker 2: have one another to rely on for survival. So you
1:17:42
Speaker 2: learn a lot of trust. And the greatest thing about
1:17:45
Speaker 2: being a team is, you know, whether it be a
1:17:47
Speaker 2: two man or a four man team, is people think
1:17:49
Speaker 2: that the team leader is like this you know this
1:17:52
Speaker 2: this like this supreme being. It's not that way at all.
1:17:56
Speaker 2: We all carry the weight at different times, and it's
1:17:58
Speaker 2: recognizing when some people need to be stronger or have
1:18:02
Speaker 2: better capabilities. The job of the team leader is not
1:18:05
Speaker 2: to be the smartest or the best all the time.
1:18:07
Speaker 2: Their job as a team leader is to employ other
1:18:09
Speaker 2: people and their specific skills so that we can recognize
1:18:12
Speaker 2: our potential together. So let's talk about Juba and explain
1:18:19
Speaker 2: the legend. Because you start your book about it about
1:18:23
Speaker 2: you know, you get shown this thumb drive and so
1:18:28
Speaker 2: this was something I was trying to understand. Explain the
1:18:33
Speaker 2: thumb drive highlights of this of this menace I guess
1:18:37
Speaker 2: of US marines. So snipers have a saying it's kill one,
1:18:41
Speaker 2: terrorize a thousand. So when a sniper is in an
1:18:44
Speaker 2: area and they're doing their job properly, they don't just
1:18:48
Speaker 2: attack the physical being, they attack the emotional and the mental.
1:18:52
Speaker 2: When an enemy combatant knows there's a sniper among them,
1:18:55
Speaker 2: they can never rest easy. So what Juba did is
1:19:01
Speaker 2: in two thousand and four, we in Ramadi, we had
1:19:04
Speaker 2: a four man marine sniper team were ambushed and killed
1:19:08
Speaker 2: and with them when they were ambushed. Their M forty
1:19:11
Speaker 2: A one sniper rifle went missing. And right around that timeframe,
1:19:15
Speaker 2: we had a lot of enemy snipers operating inside of
1:19:18
Speaker 2: the al Ambar province. Well, Juba, you know, whether it
1:19:22
Speaker 2: be an individual or a team of.
1:19:24
Speaker 1: I was just going to say, are you still convinced
1:19:25
Speaker 1: it's an individual or that it's a yeah?
1:19:28
Speaker 2: Okay, So it's like Juba itself, right, Like there's a
1:19:32
Speaker 2: lot more power in having it as a team and
1:19:34
Speaker 2: people can operate. There's a large battlespace. I'm not naive
1:19:37
Speaker 2: to that, but the name of the person, right, you know,
1:19:41
Speaker 2: of this of this this character Juba. What they started
1:19:44
Speaker 2: to do is hunt Americans, and Americans were quite vulnerable
1:19:46
Speaker 2: during that timeframe, and so what they did is for
1:19:49
Speaker 2: two years they hunted Americans from very close proximity. And
1:19:52
Speaker 2: what they did is they took it a step further
1:19:55
Speaker 2: and they videotaped their exploits and they put it on
1:19:58
Speaker 2: the internet Al Jazeera and Ogreish, you know, all these things,
1:20:01
Speaker 2: so the world could watch Americans die. But what he
1:20:04
Speaker 2: did was in his hubris, what he did was he
1:20:07
Speaker 2: showed us how he operated, how he thought, what he
1:20:11
Speaker 2: did and what his actions normally looked like what we
1:20:15
Speaker 2: used that against him. Remember to be observant. As a sniper,
1:20:18
Speaker 2: my job is to observe what we call a disturbance
1:20:20
Speaker 2: in the baseline. And when you get into an area,
1:20:23
Speaker 2: an area will establish a baseline for you where the
1:20:26
Speaker 2: birds start chirping again, or there's a natural flow and
1:20:28
Speaker 2: feel to a specific environment. Snipers are trained to be
1:20:32
Speaker 2: able to pick up something called a disturbance in the baseline. So,
1:20:34
Speaker 2: for instance, if you're in a field and a bunch
1:20:36
Speaker 2: of birds pick up and fly away, that's a disturbance
1:20:39
Speaker 2: in the baseline. It doesn't necessarily mean that there's a
1:20:41
Speaker 2: bad guy there. It just means I'm paying attention a
1:20:43
Speaker 2: little bit more. And so what we learned from watching
1:20:47
Speaker 2: his videos was we learned what his modus operandi was,
1:20:51
Speaker 2: We learned his operating principles, and so then we were
1:20:54
Speaker 2: able to start planning our missions and looking for specific
1:20:57
Speaker 2: what we call template matches that he does, or that
1:21:01
Speaker 2: a person like that would do, that we would look for,
1:21:05
Speaker 2: and that eventually led for us allowed us to be
1:21:07
Speaker 2: able to create a mission that would entice him to
1:21:11
Speaker 2: come into an area that we could have him fall
1:21:13
Speaker 2: into a trap and when he fell into the trap,
1:21:15
Speaker 2: we were waiting. So this was a planned mission.
1:21:28
Speaker 1: This isn't you stumbling upon No, so.
1:21:32
Speaker 2: We have yeah, we have like a chance contact, right,
1:21:35
Speaker 2: and we have like planned ambushes. Who we were really
1:21:37
Speaker 2: hunting that day? And the story goes into it a
1:21:39
Speaker 2: little bit. Who I was really hunting that day was
1:21:42
Speaker 2: an IDM placer. I knew that I ed M placers
1:21:46
Speaker 2: had a much more regimented mo o. I knew how
1:21:50
Speaker 2: to be able to insert myself into their scenario. But
1:21:53
Speaker 2: what we also thing for him relatively unknowingly right that
1:21:58
Speaker 2: it was something enticing? But is it? Luck is where
1:22:02
Speaker 2: preparation and opportunity meet, right, So we had a trap
1:22:05
Speaker 2: set for an ied in plaster, he stumbled into it
1:22:08
Speaker 2: and we were able to capture him through that.
1:22:12
Speaker 1: Do you know it when it happened at the time
1:22:14
Speaker 1: or does it later that you realized you had gotten,
1:22:17
Speaker 1: if not Juba himself, one of the important sort of snipers.
1:22:24
Speaker 1: I mean, did you know in the moment or was
1:22:26
Speaker 1: this later on you realized?
1:22:28
Speaker 2: Yeah, within within a few minutes right after. I mean,
1:22:31
Speaker 2: there's the chaos of the shot. So I tell people
1:22:33
Speaker 2: this is you know, there's a lot of people who
1:22:35
Speaker 2: like to come and you know, for the global war
1:22:38
Speaker 2: and terrorism that's happened, a lot of people are arm
1:22:41
Speaker 2: sharing what happens on the ground. And what I tell
1:22:43
Speaker 2: people is that clarity is the first casualty in Calmbat.
1:22:47
Speaker 2: And so the enemy wants to survive just as much
1:22:49
Speaker 2: as I want to survive, right, And so they don't
1:22:51
Speaker 2: out they don't go out there and you know, holding
1:22:53
Speaker 2: weapons waiting for us to shoot them. It's not how
1:22:55
Speaker 2: it works, and so there's a lot of confusion. There's
1:22:58
Speaker 2: a lot of chaos going on. We take the first shots,
1:23:02
Speaker 2: we eliminate the you know, the target, and then what
1:23:04
Speaker 2: happens is I have another marine, you know, a marine
1:23:08
Speaker 2: squad come up to the vehicle where Juba was at
1:23:11
Speaker 2: and I have them hold up a Sony handicam. What
1:23:14
Speaker 2: I had first seen was that he was videotaping a
1:23:18
Speaker 2: marine patrol which falls into the structure IED's or snipers,
1:23:22
Speaker 2: and I saw Sony. I mean, it sounds cliche, but
1:23:25
Speaker 2: I literally caught a glint off of the lens of
1:23:28
Speaker 2: a Sony handicam and zoomed in on my scope and
1:23:32
Speaker 2: then all of a sudden, recognize that Marines are about
1:23:35
Speaker 2: to die and we need to insert ourselves into this
1:23:37
Speaker 2: equation as fast as possible. And so when he did that,
1:23:40
Speaker 2: we shot into the car. We were able to eliminate
1:23:44
Speaker 2: him and his spotter. But I didn't know it was
1:23:47
Speaker 2: a sniper just yet.
1:23:50
Speaker 1: What's interesting about that is it goes back to look
1:23:53
Speaker 1: at what caught your eye that would do him in,
1:23:58
Speaker 1: and it was the propaganda heart of his mission, right,
1:24:02
Speaker 1: And this is it's sort of like the minute you
1:24:04
Speaker 1: care more about the propaganda rather than the mission, I don't.
1:24:08
Speaker 2: I'm not.
1:24:09
Speaker 1: You know, it cost himself his own life due to
1:24:13
Speaker 1: his own focus not on the mission, right, right.
1:24:18
Speaker 2: I think there's a ton of layers of lessons inside
1:24:20
Speaker 2: of that, right, you know, is marine sniper's you know,
1:24:23
Speaker 2: really really focused on doing the job. Do the job,
1:24:26
Speaker 2: don't talk about the job. I didn't claim credit for
1:24:28
Speaker 2: this for twenty years. I mean, people knew at some
1:24:31
Speaker 2: level inside of the military, but it just wasn't important
1:24:34
Speaker 2: to us what was And again, the credit never felt
1:24:36
Speaker 2: like mine to claim. I may have pulled the trigger
1:24:38
Speaker 2: on Juba, but it was the entire team, the team. Sure,
1:24:42
Speaker 2: that's exactly correct. And his hubris. His hubris is what
1:24:45
Speaker 2: did himIt. And that's not lost on me.
1:24:49
Speaker 1: You said something in the book when you were getting
1:24:52
Speaker 1: ready to fight in a rock where you're like, you
1:24:56
Speaker 1: didn't understand why people would fight for a tyrant like
1:24:59
Speaker 1: Saddam who's saying And it struck me because I think
1:25:03
Speaker 1: we all feel that way when we get into these
1:25:05
Speaker 1: wars and we're you know, in theory, we believe usually
1:25:08
Speaker 1: we'd like to think we're the good guys and the
1:25:10
Speaker 1: other side of the bad guys, and we're on the
1:25:13
Speaker 1: side of the righteous, and somehow they're not on the
1:25:15
Speaker 1: side of the righteous. And then we sometimes are shocked
1:25:18
Speaker 1: that the same loyalty that we expect in our forces
1:25:22
Speaker 1: to our country were shocked when other people have the
1:25:25
Speaker 1: same loyalty to their country and their forces. Right, And
1:25:28
Speaker 1: I think sometimes it's I actually blame my industry for this,
1:25:32
Speaker 1: right because we will, we will, you know, talk up
1:25:36
Speaker 1: our principles as we should, and our values, but we're
1:25:40
Speaker 1: we're almost sort of naive that somehow somebody else doesn't
1:25:45
Speaker 1: have the same devotion to a set of values we
1:25:48
Speaker 1: may not agree with one hundred.
1:25:49
Speaker 2: Percent, correct, you know, two thousand and three was a
1:25:52
Speaker 2: different war than the rest of them, you know, two
1:25:55
Speaker 2: thousand and three, we fought a uniformed military and they're
1:26:00
Speaker 2: you know, you're right, I'm writing this, and there are
1:26:02
Speaker 2: letters through the book that are my letters that I
1:26:04
Speaker 2: had written out, and so their little snapshots into my
1:26:07
Speaker 2: psyche during that timeframe, And you're right. I was confused
1:26:09
Speaker 2: as to the whole world knew Saddam was a tyrant, right,
1:26:13
Speaker 2: but we were shocked as to why people would want
1:26:15
Speaker 2: to fight for somebody like that. The war evolved afterwards,
1:26:19
Speaker 2: and so in two thousand and four, late two thousand
1:26:22
Speaker 2: and three, two thousand and four and on, we started
1:26:24
Speaker 2: fighting something called the musja Hadeen and muja Hadeen means freedom.
1:26:29
Speaker 1: Fighter right, and Afghanistan not in Iraq right.
1:26:32
Speaker 2: And then in Afghanistan we fought the Taliban right and
1:26:35
Speaker 2: Talib you know, Taliban means student writer, Talid means student
1:26:39
Speaker 2: of the Quran right. So I had to be able
1:26:42
Speaker 2: to again, the most dangerous thing that we can do
1:26:46
Speaker 2: is not respect to our enemy. I tell people I've
1:26:48
Speaker 2: never fought a terrorist. I've only fought freedom fighters. They
1:26:52
Speaker 2: don't see themselves.
1:26:52
Speaker 1: That's a very important, you know, I mean This is
1:26:55
Speaker 1: a cliche that's been said over the years, but one
1:26:57
Speaker 1: person's freedom fighter is another person terrorists.
1:27:01
Speaker 2: And it's a matter of perspective. And so when we
1:27:03
Speaker 2: lost respect, or if a unit lost respect for the
1:27:06
Speaker 2: Taliban or a lost respect for the Musja Hadeen in
1:27:09
Speaker 2: Iraq or Isis or whatever it was at that time
1:27:11
Speaker 2: frame in Iraq, that's when you become you know, a detriment.
1:27:15
Speaker 2: Whence we become dangerous to yourself again, our own level
1:27:18
Speaker 2: of hubris, you know, American exceptionalism, right, if we carried
1:27:21
Speaker 2: that into combat, you know, politics, your political your faith
1:27:26
Speaker 2: does a seven to sixty two bullet does not care,
1:27:29
Speaker 2: and we needed to protect that.
1:27:33
Speaker 1: Look, I feel like it was you included a letter
1:27:36
Speaker 1: from General Mattis and this was obviously before he ever
1:27:39
Speaker 1: served as Secretary of Defense. This is when he was
1:27:43
Speaker 1: an active Marine general before he retired, and it was
1:27:47
Speaker 1: a letter that he was Essentially it was the message
1:27:50
Speaker 1: to your troops before before you were going to go
1:27:52
Speaker 1: into fight, and embedded in the message was a bit
1:27:58
Speaker 1: of respect and at it in the message was remember
1:28:02
Speaker 1: you're representing the United States.
1:28:04
Speaker 2: We do you know.
1:28:08
Speaker 1: I think it was basically think before you shoot and
1:28:13
Speaker 1: I'll be honest and I look, I'm not going to.
1:28:15
Speaker 1: If you don't want to be drawn into the current situation,
1:28:18
Speaker 1: say so and I will move on. But I don't
1:28:22
Speaker 1: feel like we have a a commander of the Defense
1:28:26
Speaker 1: Department that shares those same values that General Mattis shared
1:28:29
Speaker 1: with you the night the night before you had to
1:28:31
Speaker 1: go into war. It's a different message that I feel
1:28:35
Speaker 1: like our soldiers are getting today.
1:28:36
Speaker 2: Do you see that? So I'll answer this. I've had
1:28:41
Speaker 2: many conversations with former Secretary Mattis. I respect him very much.
1:28:45
Speaker 2: I had an opportunity to sit with him at the
1:28:47
Speaker 2: Hoover Institute in Palo Alto and have a very long conversation.
1:28:52
Speaker 2: There are very few men in the world that I
1:28:54
Speaker 2: respect more than him. What he wrote for us was,
1:28:57
Speaker 2: he wrote for us a letter. This is at the
1:28:59
Speaker 2: end of the day of You can take the values
1:29:01
Speaker 2: from that letter and you can carry that forward if
1:29:03
Speaker 2: you can engage your mind before you engage your weapon,
1:29:06
Speaker 2: and be as a United States Marine no better friend
1:29:09
Speaker 2: and no worse enemy. I think that what happens is
1:29:12
Speaker 2: my personal experience shows me that the love that we
1:29:16
Speaker 2: have for one of the bond that we have for
1:29:18
Speaker 2: our fellow service members in combat, in conflict wherever we
1:29:22
Speaker 2: go throughout the world. That bond to me is sacred,
1:29:26
Speaker 2: and that bond has to be respected, and it has
1:29:29
Speaker 2: to be wielded very very carefully. I will be very direct.
1:29:33
Speaker 2: I am not an advocate for war. Ever, However, when
1:29:37
Speaker 2: there are when we do send Americans into conflict, it
1:29:42
Speaker 2: must be for a just cause, it must be for
1:29:45
Speaker 2: a good purpose. We must be there to preserve American
1:29:49
Speaker 2: or you know, I would say values right that we
1:29:52
Speaker 2: hold as Americans deers.
1:29:54
Speaker 1: Human rights in some ways that General Madis was conveying
1:29:58
Speaker 1: not just American values, it was human right.
1:30:00
Speaker 2: You are completely correct on that we are the largest
1:30:04
Speaker 2: military the world has ever known, and the most capable
1:30:06
Speaker 2: military the Wold's ever ever known. But that with that,
1:30:10
Speaker 2: with that there comes a responsibility. There comes a responsibility
1:30:13
Speaker 2: to wield that sword very carefully, because the bond that
1:30:17
Speaker 2: I share with my brothers and sisters, who I literally
1:30:19
Speaker 2: bled with, fought with, and some have died for, that
1:30:23
Speaker 2: has to be respected. And when we don't do that,
1:30:25
Speaker 2: when we violate our own values of what it means
1:30:27
Speaker 2: to be an American, an American service member and we
1:30:30
Speaker 2: use that and we wield that inappropriately. Then I think
1:30:34
Speaker 2: that we ought we we're giving our enemies and our
1:30:40
Speaker 2: adversaries unnecessary We're giving unearned victories. If that makes sense
1:30:44
Speaker 2: now it does?
1:30:45
Speaker 1: I mean, look, I look at these briefings we get,
1:30:48
Speaker 1: and General Cain is as responsible as anybody in the
1:30:52
Speaker 1: uniform I would expect them to be. And he steers
1:30:56
Speaker 1: clear of politics and all of this stuff. It's the
1:30:58
Speaker 1: political leadership that I feel like, is is is in
1:31:03
Speaker 1: is infecting this a little bit? Are you worried that
1:31:05
Speaker 1: sort of the values that you know? I feel like
1:31:08
Speaker 1: you came through a military that had that cared about
1:31:11
Speaker 1: these values. I think the military still cares about these values.
1:31:15
Speaker 1: But there are some people that are advertising a set
1:31:17
Speaker 1: of values that feel counter to what you wrote.
1:31:21
Speaker 2: About strong question. You know, I write in the letter
1:31:27
Speaker 2: to the leader that's an aspirational tone. I want people
1:31:30
Speaker 2: to assume and to take those values. You know. I
1:31:34
Speaker 2: think that there's a through line. Secretary Matis wrote as
1:31:38
Speaker 2: a general wrote a letter to me that shaped a division,
1:31:42
Speaker 2: that gave us our set of principles of who we
1:31:45
Speaker 2: are and who we want to be sometimes who we
1:31:47
Speaker 2: aspire to be. Is more important than we who we
1:31:49
Speaker 2: are right now. And I did the same thing in
1:31:51
Speaker 2: my letter to the leader. It's not just a letter
1:31:54
Speaker 2: to the future leader. It's a letter to America. It's
1:31:56
Speaker 2: a letter to our own values of saying we need
1:31:59
Speaker 2: to establish and hold our own leaders accountable, whatever that
1:32:03
Speaker 2: may be, to be able to fall back to these values,
1:32:05
Speaker 2: these values that allow that when the twin towers fall.
1:32:08
Speaker 2: You know, a seventeen year old kid says, I have
1:32:10
Speaker 2: to defend these things. There is a specific requirement. You know.
1:32:15
Speaker 2: The military is a tool of diplomacy, and it is
1:32:19
Speaker 2: a tool of diplomacy that should be wielded very very carefully,
1:32:22
Speaker 2: and at times the last tool inside of ex solution.
1:32:26
Speaker 1: There's a pretty good saying out there that says, if
1:32:28
Speaker 1: you have if you're fighting a war, it means you
1:32:31
Speaker 1: are bad at diplomacy.
1:32:34
Speaker 2: You know, the Marine Corps has one job, right and
1:32:37
Speaker 2: our one job is to break the back of our
1:32:40
Speaker 2: enemy to our will, and that should be very well protected.
1:32:44
Speaker 2: I think that what I want to remember, I'll be
1:32:47
Speaker 2: very blunt to the politicians and policymakers in Washington. War
1:32:54
Speaker 2: to them is a strategy. You know, it's a budget
1:32:57
Speaker 2: it's a posture, it's a tweet. But for the people
1:33:00
Speaker 2: who fight it, their names, they're families, their faces, and
1:33:06
Speaker 2: that bond, that that that social contract between our government
1:33:10
Speaker 2: and our military needs to be protected. And we need
1:33:13
Speaker 2: to make sure that when we send Americans forward into
1:33:16
Speaker 2: harms way, that we're doing it for a good reason.
1:33:19
Speaker 1: You know, I pine for a set of leaders that
1:33:22
Speaker 1: have that come with a background in military service, because
1:33:25
Speaker 1: I think there it is the one place you described
1:33:28
Speaker 1: it earlier about sort of it's a ticket to the
1:33:31
Speaker 1: middle class, if if you need a ticket to the
1:33:33
Speaker 1: middle class. But there's a there's an egalitarian aspect to it,
1:33:37
Speaker 1: right it is you know, look, we are not a
1:33:39
Speaker 1: colorblind society, but the military is better than most. Right,
1:33:43
Speaker 1: we are not a classless society, but the military is
1:33:48
Speaker 1: better than most. And it is not lost on me
1:33:50
Speaker 1: that that a lot of times when we get executive
1:33:54
Speaker 1: experience who came after a career in the military, there
1:34:00
Speaker 1: is a lot of empathy in their tone of leadership.
1:34:04
Speaker 1: And yet I fear today there's a perception that somehow
1:34:08
Speaker 1: to be a strong military leader. You know, empathy is
1:34:12
Speaker 1: a weakness, and you really this to me seems to
1:34:15
Speaker 1: be your driving purpose of this book is empathy is
1:34:18
Speaker 1: supposed to be a strength, not a weakness. And it
1:34:20
Speaker 1: feels like you're trying to almost counter a changing narrative.
1:34:25
Speaker 2: I appreciate that's what you picked up from the book.
1:34:27
Speaker 2: I work very, very hard the thing that as a
1:34:31
Speaker 2: as a writer, right, I mean even as a military member,
1:34:34
Speaker 2: I serve for twenty one years, and we have to
1:34:36
Speaker 2: remain a political while we do that because I serve.
1:34:39
Speaker 2: You know, at the United States Constitution, the same oath
1:34:41
Speaker 2: that I swear is the same oath the President swears, right,
1:34:44
Speaker 2: and so I have a duty to uphold and defend
1:34:47
Speaker 2: the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic. And I
1:34:49
Speaker 2: believe in that. And you're completely right what I cannot
1:34:53
Speaker 2: do and what I'm trying not to do with the book.
1:34:56
Speaker 2: I have a very good friend of mine, right, and
1:34:57
Speaker 2: I was like, I don't want to write a political book.
1:34:59
Speaker 2: And he says, man Aj, this is a deeply political book.
1:35:03
Speaker 2: It's non partisan, right. So what happens is it's about values.
1:35:07
Speaker 2: I am when you get to the Fallujah chapter, I
1:35:11
Speaker 2: am not kind with my distaste for politicians who some
1:35:14
Speaker 2: who have called for blood one week and then lost
1:35:17
Speaker 2: their nerve the next and then misuse to you know,
1:35:21
Speaker 2: misuse the United States Marines. When I look at empathy,
1:35:24
Speaker 2: I look at empathy as a strength because what happens is,
1:35:27
Speaker 2: as a good leader, what you're able to do when
1:35:30
Speaker 2: you're working with anybody across the world, it's to try
1:35:33
Speaker 2: to visualize what their life is like or their perspective,
1:35:37
Speaker 2: and to walk a mile in their shoes. I'm trying
1:35:40
Speaker 2: to get America politicians, whoever it is, to walk a
1:35:43
Speaker 2: mile in a young seventeen year or through thirty nine
1:35:46
Speaker 2: year old shoes to see what life is like. You know.
1:35:50
Speaker 2: I say a lot that courage is useless without compassion.
1:35:54
Speaker 2: It's on the inside flap of the book. And the
1:35:56
Speaker 2: reason why I say that is a marine does not
1:36:00
Speaker 2: up on a hand grenade to save a fellow marine's
1:36:03
Speaker 2: life out of courage. He does it out of compassion
1:36:06
Speaker 2: because he loves that person's life. He loves his brother,
1:36:09
Speaker 2: and he honors his brother's life more than his own.
1:36:12
Speaker 2: That's service, and I want what I would hope is
1:36:15
Speaker 2: that people take from this book is an idea of service,
1:36:18
Speaker 2: service over self, service to the greater good, and it
1:36:21
Speaker 2: doesn't have to be the military, and if you'll forgid
1:36:23
Speaker 2: me for just a moment, I do in service in
1:36:27
Speaker 2: the United States, and I think that a culture that
1:36:30
Speaker 2: promotes and rewards service to the greater good is a
1:36:34
Speaker 2: healthier organization. Was you know, as you mentioned, I was
1:36:38
Speaker 2: on a different podcast where I talked at length, you know,
1:36:41
Speaker 2: for a multitude of topics. You know, there's this idea
1:36:44
Speaker 2: of buying and what a lot of people want is
1:36:47
Speaker 2: they want people in America to have skin in the game.
1:36:50
Speaker 2: I totally understand that I have skin in the game, right,
1:36:53
Speaker 2: I've fought for this country. But I also think that
1:36:56
Speaker 2: skin in the game doesn't always have to mean holding
1:36:58
Speaker 2: a rifle. If we had a society that held service
1:37:03
Speaker 2: as high as we do independent wealth, what if we
1:37:06
Speaker 2: had a society that valued not what you could. I mean,
1:37:10
Speaker 2: there was a very pretty famous president right who said
1:37:13
Speaker 2: it at one point, right, what if you could give
1:37:15
Speaker 2: something to your community and to your country and that
1:37:17
Speaker 2: was held valuable. What if we had a society that said,
1:37:21
Speaker 2: here's what we're going to do. We're going to pick
1:37:23
Speaker 2: a number of organizations that provide service, from Peace Corps
1:37:27
Speaker 2: to the Marine Corps, Civilian Conservation Corps, National Park Service.
1:37:31
Speaker 2: You work in service to the greater good for two
1:37:34
Speaker 2: years or four years or whatever it is, and then
1:37:37
Speaker 2: we're going to guarantee you a safe harbor. While you're
1:37:42
Speaker 2: doing it, you pay into the greater good, and then
1:37:44
Speaker 2: we provide you a social service, access to vocational schools,
1:37:48
Speaker 2: access to a two year or four year college degree.
1:37:51
Speaker 2: At the back end, what that does is lift people
1:37:54
Speaker 2: like me from obscurity, from poverty and gives me and
1:37:58
Speaker 2: it affects mytory. I'm a sniper. I care about trajectory,
1:38:02
Speaker 2: and that takes me from the lower class, gives me
1:38:05
Speaker 2: buy into the United States, and then I get a
1:38:08
Speaker 2: chance to exit. What we want. What I wanted was
1:38:12
Speaker 2: not equality and outcome. I want equality an opportunity. I
1:38:16
Speaker 2: have to figure out the rest. And I think that
1:38:18
Speaker 2: if we can have an organization or a culture or
1:38:20
Speaker 2: a country that promotes service as much as we do wealth,
1:38:23
Speaker 2: I think we're going to have a pretty safe and
1:38:26
Speaker 2: a pretty good country in the futy.
1:38:27
Speaker 1: Now, I am a you know when you and I
1:38:30
Speaker 1: don't want this to become a political discussion about Israel,
1:38:33
Speaker 1: but Israel's mandatory service requirement when you meet in Israeli.
1:38:41
Speaker 1: Their devotion, their citizenship, their devotion to the state.
1:38:47
Speaker 2: Is so admirable.
1:38:49
Speaker 1: And I think it's because of this service requirement, right,
1:38:53
Speaker 1: And it's a nation that is bonded. The service requirement
1:38:57
Speaker 1: I think bonds them even more and there is generational
1:39:01
Speaker 1: bonding now with that that service. And I'm with you,
1:39:03
Speaker 1: it doesn't have to be military service. In fact, there's
1:39:06
Speaker 1: so many things that we need. There's a politician running
1:39:10
Speaker 1: around right now that's not only promoting national service, but
1:39:13
Speaker 1: his idea is not just vocation, but a down payment
1:39:17
Speaker 1: for your first house in exchange for two years of service.
1:39:21
Speaker 1: Whatever it is like as you described it is. You know,
1:39:25
Speaker 1: it's funny. I'm a huge promoter of this. I think
1:39:28
Speaker 1: it would depolarize the country, right. I think the best
1:39:31
Speaker 1: part of the military is that an urban kid, a
1:39:34
Speaker 1: rural kid, an ex urban kid, an immigrant kid, they're
1:39:37
Speaker 1: all thrown into the same boot camp and they all
1:39:41
Speaker 1: figure out that they're more the same than different. And
1:39:43
Speaker 1: then suddenly everybody in that in that platoon has a
1:39:48
Speaker 1: different worldview simply by meeting their fellow Americans. Right, So
1:39:53
Speaker 1: it is it is a depolarizer if we lean into it.
1:39:57
Speaker 1: If this is what we want this country to be.
1:39:59
Speaker 1: And you know, I throw this out there and I
1:40:01
Speaker 1: had a couple of younger sort of political type, sort
1:40:06
Speaker 1: of political you know, historian types, were saying, oh, you
1:40:09
Speaker 1: old guys always want to promote national service. Nobody, this
1:40:12
Speaker 1: is not popular. And I'm like, it's not a matter
1:40:15
Speaker 1: of whether it's popular. Isn't the right thing to do?
1:40:18
Speaker 2: Sometimes you got to take your medicine right, right, but
1:40:21
Speaker 2: there is but the I mean, you know, yes, it
1:40:24
Speaker 2: isn't going to be Hey, would you like to do
1:40:25
Speaker 2: two years of this in exchange? You know you're like, well,
1:40:28
Speaker 2: you know, school.
1:40:29
Speaker 1: Itself isn't popular to some kids, but we know it's
1:40:32
Speaker 1: the right thing to do, right, So this feels like
1:40:35
Speaker 1: something that we you know, and it's funny it gets
1:40:38
Speaker 1: merged with the draft, you like, oh, everybody hated the draft,
1:40:41
Speaker 1: all right, it's because everybody got upset up because there
1:40:44
Speaker 1: was a war that the draft seemed to feed that
1:40:48
Speaker 1: not everybody was for They were mad at the politicians,
1:40:51
Speaker 1: not necessarily the idea of advocating for service. But it
1:40:55
Speaker 1: feels like something were further away from like it felt
1:40:58
Speaker 1: like we were getting close sort of being open to
1:41:01
Speaker 1: this kind of more service, more service, and then you know,
1:41:05
Speaker 1: and it's probably our political divide, right, We're so polarized
1:41:08
Speaker 1: that there's fear that if you support something that the
1:41:11
Speaker 1: other party advocates, you're somehow a trader to your party.
1:41:14
Speaker 1: And it's like, I don't know how we got this
1:41:16
Speaker 1: far away that our fellow Americans aren't on our allies.
1:41:20
Speaker 2: Yeah, the political purity tests is very hard for people.
1:41:25
Speaker 2: But to your point is, you know, combat, and I
1:41:28
Speaker 2: would say service strips away the illusion that we succeed alone.
1:41:34
Speaker 2: You know, you learned very very quickly that all you
1:41:36
Speaker 2: have is the person to your left and to your right.
1:41:38
Speaker 2: And this applies to families, communities, you know, politics, leadership.
1:41:42
Speaker 2: You know, I'm never an advocate for the draft. I
1:41:45
Speaker 2: think that there's a ton of second and third order
1:41:48
Speaker 2: effects that happened from conscripted service. As far as we
1:41:51
Speaker 2: have a very professional military, and we have worked very
1:41:54
Speaker 2: hard to have a professionally educated and trained military that
1:41:57
Speaker 2: a draft doesn't necessarily support. And I don't know that
1:42:01
Speaker 2: conscripted service, whether that be you know, Peace Corps of
1:42:04
Speaker 2: Marine Corps, I think we provide it as an opportunity,
1:42:07
Speaker 2: I mean, give it doesn't have to be requirement for everyone.
1:42:09
Speaker 2: If you come from an affluent background and you can
1:42:11
Speaker 2: get into college or whatever it is, do run your race, man,
1:42:13
Speaker 2: do That's great? But if but if you don't, and
1:42:15
Speaker 2: you want a leg up and you would like to,
1:42:17
Speaker 2: you know, you know, fight out of whatever you know
1:42:20
Speaker 2: scenario or whatever hand or you know deck of cards
1:42:22
Speaker 2: you were dealt, then there's an opportunity for that. You know,
1:42:26
Speaker 2: it's really to me. I think that the thing you
1:42:29
Speaker 2: know that and I exist in a lot of spaces
1:42:32
Speaker 2: across the conservative and progressive ideologies. I get a chance to.
1:42:35
Speaker 1: Walk out what I love is usually most guys at
1:42:37
Speaker 1: your background are not clean in any side of the
1:42:41
Speaker 1: political aisle that there really is, which is to me,
1:42:44
Speaker 1: which makes a military veteran a better person to introduce
1:42:48
Speaker 1: into the political world personally. But it's because you're not
1:42:50
Speaker 1: easily categorized.
1:42:52
Speaker 2: I appreciate that, you know the I think the thing
1:42:55
Speaker 2: that I most Americans are looking for is, you know,
1:42:58
Speaker 2: a hand up rather than a handout. I think that
1:43:01
Speaker 2: giving people the for me, nobody made me a sniper, right,
1:43:04
Speaker 2: They gave me the opportunity, They helped me along the way,
1:43:07
Speaker 2: they carried the load when I couldn't carry it myself.
1:43:10
Speaker 2: But eventually I had to pick up the way. Right
1:43:12
Speaker 2: when I wanted to become a force recon marine later
1:43:14
Speaker 2: in my career, or become a marine officer later in
1:43:16
Speaker 2: my career, I had the opportunity for success. People helped
1:43:19
Speaker 2: me along the way, kind of like bumpers in the
1:43:21
Speaker 2: little bowling alley, right, but I still had to walk
1:43:24
Speaker 2: that path, and so you still have to earn it.
1:43:26
Speaker 2: And I think that's what's so wonderful about military service.
1:43:29
Speaker 2: And it's so easy to get trapped into the polarization,
1:43:32
Speaker 2: you know. And I'll tell you something here is you know,
1:43:35
Speaker 2: I lost my best friend in Afghanistan. His name was
1:43:38
Speaker 2: Matt Ingham, staff sergeant Matthew Ingham.
1:43:42
Speaker 1: Where's he from?
1:43:42
Speaker 2: Where'd you grow up? Altuna, Pennsylvania? Amish country in Pennsylvania? Nice?
1:43:48
Speaker 2: And you know what, I never knew what his political
1:43:50
Speaker 2: party was. It just never came up. And so, like,
1:43:54
Speaker 2: could you imagine today living in a world where like
1:43:57
Speaker 2: I sit on an airplane with someone You're like, oh God, please,
1:43:59
Speaker 2: I don't want to know, right, You're like you get
1:44:01
Speaker 2: through this pathway, You're like, please, I just hope that
1:44:03
Speaker 2: We're not a crazy person. We don't have to be
1:44:05
Speaker 2: that way. I'm a very positive person and that's a choice.
1:44:08
Speaker 2: I try to be optimistic about the future because I
1:44:11
Speaker 2: think that we need that hope. As I write in
1:44:14
Speaker 2: the letter to Leader, hope is not a form of naivete.
1:44:18
Speaker 2: Hope is seeing a world that others can't imagine and
1:44:21
Speaker 2: work and working towards me.
1:44:31
Speaker 1: So you got involved in trying to I guess you
1:44:34
Speaker 1: would call update training protocols talk about those challenges.
1:44:39
Speaker 2: Oh, I appreciate that. So, you know. So I'm in
1:44:42
Speaker 2: a PhD program. I'm doing a PhD in leadership studies
1:44:45
Speaker 2: now at the University of San Diego. And it's so,
1:44:48
Speaker 2: I don't know, it's kind of validating at some point
1:44:50
Speaker 2: because I'm reading all this like doctoral like you know,
1:44:52
Speaker 2: ten pound brain research, right, And I was like, holy crap,
1:44:55
Speaker 2: we were onto something, right. So the idea is that
1:44:58
Speaker 2: what I wanted to create for young Marines and Marine
1:45:01
Speaker 2: Infantry specifically, was that I didn't want people to be
1:45:05
Speaker 2: successful in spite of their circumstances. I wanted them to
1:45:08
Speaker 2: be successful because of it, regardless. And this is from
1:45:11
Speaker 2: a geopolitical you know, militaristic standpoint. For me, the thing
1:45:16
Speaker 2: that is going to be our competitive advantage in the
1:45:19
Speaker 2: next war. Wherever that is right is not to me,
1:45:22
Speaker 2: is not going to be a gizmo. Right, is not
1:45:24
Speaker 2: going to be a gadget. It's going to be, as
1:45:27
Speaker 2: Secretary of Mattis said when he was a general, the
1:45:29
Speaker 2: six inches between our ears right. The competitive advantage is
1:45:33
Speaker 2: an American marine who has an ability to think, adapt
1:45:37
Speaker 2: and react quicker than his enemy. And so what we
1:45:40
Speaker 2: needed to do was create an educational program that inculcated
1:45:45
Speaker 2: a bias for action. Everything that you see, and this
1:45:48
Speaker 2: is actually interesting back to the draft PARTI portion. Everything
1:45:52
Speaker 2: that you recognize in the United States Marine Corps today,
1:45:55
Speaker 2: the hat scream in boot camps, you know, we had it.
1:45:59
Speaker 2: That all came from the draft because we had to
1:46:01
Speaker 2: take a conscript military of people who had a choice
1:46:04
Speaker 2: of going to jail or joining the Marines, and we
1:46:07
Speaker 2: had to kind of whip them into discipline shape. That
1:46:10
Speaker 2: wasn't that way in World War Two, it wasn't that
1:46:12
Speaker 2: way in Korea. Very different Marine corps then. And so
1:46:16
Speaker 2: what we do is that is very very good right
1:46:20
Speaker 2: in some aspects, and it has instant and willingness, obedience
1:46:23
Speaker 2: to orders. It's very good for discipline military, but you
1:46:25
Speaker 2: know what it doesn't create. It doesn't create freedom of
1:46:28
Speaker 2: thought and freedom of action. That teaches a person to
1:46:32
Speaker 2: solve a templated problem. But what happens when our enemy
1:46:36
Speaker 2: shows up with a problem we've never seen before. The
1:46:39
Speaker 2: idea of IMC, the Infantry Marine course that we developed
1:46:43
Speaker 2: was to not create a person to solve a specific problem.
1:46:46
Speaker 2: It was to create problems solvers. I don't know what
1:46:49
Speaker 2: gizmo well that is seems I'll be honest.
1:46:51
Speaker 1: You are to talk about a culture class with the
1:46:54
Speaker 1: Marines where you know, the stereotype for many of us
1:46:58
Speaker 1: that didn't serve as is the movie A Few Good
1:47:00
Speaker 1: Men where if you don't follow protocol, people die, right,
1:47:03
Speaker 1: That's always that is the stereotyped mindset of a marine
1:47:06
Speaker 1: and the training that a marine gets. And I totally
1:47:09
Speaker 1: get where you're saying. What you're saying is, hey, and
1:47:11
Speaker 1: if you look at the result of asymmetrical warfare where
1:47:14
Speaker 1: great powers have seen themselves not succeed against weak should
1:47:20
Speaker 1: be weaker enemies because the you know, you know, what
1:47:25
Speaker 1: is it innovation is you know, is usually born out
1:47:28
Speaker 1: of necessity, and a weaker foe is going to innovate,
1:47:33
Speaker 1: which is right here.
1:47:34
Speaker 2: The only thing the Musja Haden and the Taliban were
1:47:37
Speaker 2: limited to is their their creativity and their resources. And
1:47:41
Speaker 2: the world watched how to defeat the strongest military in
1:47:44
Speaker 2: the world for twenty years. No one would ever and
1:47:47
Speaker 2: I write it in the book, no one would ever
1:47:49
Speaker 2: face a squad of the United States Marines and think
1:47:52
Speaker 2: they're going to walk away with their lives. So they
1:47:54
Speaker 2: found a way to fight differently, right, asymmetrical warfare, fourth
1:47:57
Speaker 2: generation conflict of what we understand now moving into fifth
1:48:00
Speaker 2: GM conflict where now it's like a drone in first person,
1:48:03
Speaker 2: whatever is right and sharks with lasers right, whatever the
1:48:06
Speaker 2: thing is right. War continues to evolve, and what we
1:48:10
Speaker 2: continue to do as a service at the time was
1:48:13
Speaker 2: we tried to win what the next war by referencing
1:48:17
Speaker 2: our past successes. Now, I'm not saying throw history out right,
1:48:21
Speaker 2: that there is context that matters in a lot of
1:48:23
Speaker 2: these things, and I needed that. But what we needed
1:48:26
Speaker 2: to do was take an on us, look at ourselves
1:48:27
Speaker 2: and say, a bunch of dudes in pajamas and flip flops, right,
1:48:31
Speaker 2: gave us a run for our money, and we needed
1:48:34
Speaker 2: to figure out why. Now, I will say that the
1:48:36
Speaker 2: story doesn't end, well, Chuck, it does, so you read
1:48:42
Speaker 2: the updode, I get it. I mean change. This is
1:48:45
Speaker 2: the changing any institution's difficult. Yeah. I was kind of
1:48:48
Speaker 2: running around like a pariah for a while, you know,
1:48:50
Speaker 2: like an evangelist running around, you know, trying to like
1:48:53
Speaker 2: these young men and women, excuse me, are smarter than us,
1:48:56
Speaker 2: are more capable than us. We have to It is
1:48:59
Speaker 2: the adult in the world relationship that has to adapt
1:49:02
Speaker 2: their teaching style for the younger generation coming through, and
1:49:05
Speaker 2: a lot of Marines were unwilling to do so. But
1:49:08
Speaker 2: the saddest part about the Infantry Marine Corps wasn't that
1:49:11
Speaker 2: we had to invent new metrics of success because they
1:49:15
Speaker 2: were so so good. They were better than anything that
1:49:18
Speaker 2: we had ever created. The saddest part about it was
1:49:21
Speaker 2: right after I retired, within within eighteen months of my retirement,
1:49:25
Speaker 2: they reverted back to the way that it was when
1:49:27
Speaker 2: I went through twenty some odd years ago, an industrial
1:49:30
Speaker 2: model of education. And it's stamping right, you know, like
1:49:35
Speaker 2: I need this production over marines right and again, I
1:49:39
Speaker 2: love my service my breath, my blood. But it doesn't
1:49:42
Speaker 2: mean that I'm blind to it. I think that the
1:49:44
Speaker 2: Marine Corps needs to adapt. I think that the Marine
1:49:46
Speaker 2: Corps educational model needs to get better. And I wasn't
1:49:48
Speaker 2: alone in my thinking.
1:49:50
Speaker 1: Well, with modern warfare, I mean, how many different smaller
1:49:54
Speaker 1: armies essentially either neutralizing or larger armies. I mean, how
1:50:00
Speaker 1: often do we have to watch this around the world
1:50:03
Speaker 1: before we realize we've got a We've got to better
1:50:05
Speaker 1: prepare for asymmetrical warfare. I mean, just look at our
1:50:08
Speaker 1: own history here. I it's it's it's you know, we're
1:50:13
Speaker 1: having this debate about Iran right now, and this feels
1:50:16
Speaker 1: like one where political you know, the military has executed
1:50:20
Speaker 1: everything they've been asked to do, but the strategy behind
1:50:24
Speaker 1: this seems to have been terrible.
1:50:26
Speaker 2: Yeah. I think that what's past is prologue, you know,
1:50:30
Speaker 2: and sometimes I think that those who fail to study
1:50:32
Speaker 2: history are doomed to repeat it. You know, our tools
1:50:36
Speaker 2: for success when we fought the Red Coats for our
1:50:38
Speaker 2: independence was asymmetrical warfare. Yes, our American roots come from that,
1:50:43
Speaker 2: and we have forgotten I think in some ways now
1:50:46
Speaker 2: Again I am not I have to be very cognitzant.
1:50:48
Speaker 2: I am no longer in those spaces. I will never
1:50:51
Speaker 2: ever talk about a service member or what they're doing,
1:50:55
Speaker 2: because now I'm an armchair, right, I'm not in the
1:50:57
Speaker 2: mic security clearances no more, right, you know, and those
1:51:00
Speaker 2: young men and women are doing some incredible things time
1:51:03
Speaker 2: now because they've been asked to do it right, and
1:51:05
Speaker 2: they've been asked to do it well, and we're not
1:51:08
Speaker 2: going to I'm not here to promote a military that
1:51:10
Speaker 2: is that is not going to you know, take care
1:51:13
Speaker 2: of their own when they're put into it, you know,
1:51:15
Speaker 2: in harm's way. If military conflict becomes all drones, what's
1:51:20
Speaker 2: the unintended consequence of all that dehumanization? The cost? Then
1:51:24
Speaker 2: civilian casualties will skyrocket, right, because then what happens is
1:51:27
Speaker 2: now the cost is measured in dollars and cents and
1:51:30
Speaker 2: not names and faces. I think that some of the
1:51:32
Speaker 2: things now, again from a militaristic standpoint, Yeah, there's a
1:51:35
Speaker 2: real potential for drones. But you know, there's an interesting
1:51:38
Speaker 2: number of books and I study a ton of sci fi.
1:51:41
Speaker 2: I love sci fi, right because sci fi gets a
1:51:43
Speaker 2: chance to be able to have a real world kind
1:51:46
Speaker 2: of you're doing a what if. It's a what if
1:51:48
Speaker 2: by the author, but it's an educated one if right,
1:51:51
Speaker 2: it's not fantasy where there's like dragons and stuff, right like,
1:51:53
Speaker 2: it's an educated one. If what happens when our enemies
1:51:57
Speaker 2: now that we fight in our adversaries have the same
1:52:00
Speaker 2: tools and access to resources that we do. What then
1:52:03
Speaker 2: becomes our competitive advantage? Is it numbers? So then we
1:52:07
Speaker 2: need a draft. Are we just going to throw fifty
1:52:09
Speaker 2: eight thousand more people to be able to go die
1:52:12
Speaker 2: in a jungle somewhere, right, or are we going to
1:52:14
Speaker 2: be able to say, hey, wait a second, maybe this
1:52:16
Speaker 2: isn't working. You know. Dark Horse is the name of
1:52:19
Speaker 2: the book is for a number of reasons. One, it
1:52:23
Speaker 2: was the name of my battalion that I was in,
1:52:25
Speaker 2: and I wanted to pay homage to the third Battalion,
1:52:27
Speaker 2: fifth Marines, the dark Horse Battalion. Seconds, I was a
1:52:31
Speaker 2: dark Horse. I wasn't supposed to be successful. I wasn't
1:52:34
Speaker 2: supposed to be where I'm at today. Other people made it.
1:52:37
Speaker 2: But Third War's a chess game. Start playing chess, right,
1:52:41
Speaker 2: Start understanding that our enemy has the same resources and
1:52:44
Speaker 2: access to those, and the same adaptability and the same
1:52:47
Speaker 2: intelligence level. That we do because now we're playing a
1:52:50
Speaker 2: game on an even playing field, and we got to
1:52:52
Speaker 2: get better at chess.
1:52:53
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I shoot, I just wish they'd learn how
1:52:56
Speaker 1: to play checkers. Yeah, we're still trying to figure that
1:53:01
Speaker 1: out with this with this crew.
1:53:04
Speaker 2: Let me jump out. You ever heard the term never
1:53:06
Speaker 2: played chess with a pigeon because they don't understand the rules,
1:53:09
Speaker 2: they should all over the board, they knock the pieces off,
1:53:11
Speaker 2: and they fly away thinking they've won. Never played chess
1:53:14
Speaker 2: with a pigeon.
1:53:15
Speaker 1: I love that. That's a that I hadn't heard. That one.
1:53:19
Speaker 1: I will learn and regurgitate that one. I want to
1:53:23
Speaker 1: talk about sort of the desensitization. There's there's dehumanization, but
1:53:28
Speaker 1: then there's this line that you have to have is
1:53:32
Speaker 1: a desensitization. What's that line for you? You write about
1:53:37
Speaker 1: this one, You write about this one time where you
1:53:41
Speaker 1: where you see this it's there's a lot of dead
1:53:43
Speaker 1: bodies around you, and you notice there's a clean uniform
1:53:46
Speaker 1: and you hadn't showered in forty days and you saw
1:53:49
Speaker 1: a guy with a clean para sos who you knew
1:53:53
Speaker 1: those paras socks weren't going to be used anymore. And
1:53:56
Speaker 1: it was you know, this is what I when I
1:53:58
Speaker 1: meant by this was a very honest depiction. This is
1:54:02
Speaker 1: just and this is life in war. But you portrayed
1:54:08
Speaker 1: that moment. And I say that because I think there's
1:54:11
Speaker 1: this fine line right with drones. It is the sphere
1:54:14
Speaker 1: of dehumanization where you know, some some hothead politician gets
1:54:20
Speaker 1: excited because they can watch this on TV. And then
1:54:24
Speaker 1: there's the reality of surviving hand to hand combat, which
1:54:28
Speaker 1: is what you what you were talking about there, So
1:54:31
Speaker 1: how does that happen?
1:54:33
Speaker 2: Do you remember that? Like?
1:54:35
Speaker 1: And when you think back on it, you know it's
1:54:37
Speaker 1: this because you have this incredible empathy. You clearly see
1:54:43
Speaker 1: a human being on the other side, even if they
1:54:45
Speaker 1: are the enemy. But if you are, if you don't
1:54:50
Speaker 1: know how to sort of compartmentalize you, you wouldn't be
1:54:53
Speaker 1: able to get out of your own way. How does
1:54:54
Speaker 1: it happen? How do you do it? Thank you for
1:54:59
Speaker 1: reading the book. Thank you.
1:55:04
Speaker 2: I bled on those pages. I tried to tell the
1:55:07
Speaker 2: story of the men and women I served alongside, and
1:55:10
Speaker 2: I tried to tell their story honorably and tell a
1:55:12
Speaker 2: marine story and not mine. When I looked, I was
1:55:17
Speaker 2: eighteen years old, and I know the scene you're talking about.
1:55:20
Speaker 2: Right beforehand, I had watched a man's life leave his
1:55:23
Speaker 2: eyes from my own hand. And what I didn't see
1:55:26
Speaker 2: in his eyes was anger. I didn't see it in
1:55:29
Speaker 2: his eyes was hatred. I saw fear. I saw the
1:55:32
Speaker 2: same fear that I had, and he looked at me
1:55:37
Speaker 2: with this just absolute uncertainty, this absolute fear, and just
1:55:42
Speaker 2: the horror in his eyes. He knew he was dying.
1:55:45
Speaker 2: It's the same thing an animal does when it's looking
1:55:46
Speaker 2: at They know they're dying and they don't know what
1:55:49
Speaker 2: to do, and they're scared. And then I had to
1:55:53
Speaker 2: very quickly snap out of that. So you have these
1:55:55
Speaker 2: moments of just raw you didn't somebody might have shot you, right,
1:56:00
Speaker 2: and then I would be laying there next to him,
1:56:02
Speaker 2: you know, I mean think that I don't like. I
1:56:04
Speaker 2: didn't write this book to glorify war, not as that.
1:56:07
Speaker 1: You don't glorify it.
1:56:08
Speaker 2: I would. I want to make that clear to folks.
1:56:10
Speaker 2: It's not glorified. I appreciate that, you know. I wrote
1:56:13
Speaker 2: this book to tell the realities of it, the ability
1:56:17
Speaker 2: with the requirement I should say to literally code switch
1:56:20
Speaker 2: from watching a man's life leap his eyes and feeling
1:56:23
Speaker 2: about how terrible this action, This is nothing like g I, Joe,
1:56:27
Speaker 2: this is awful, And then having to recognize that your
1:56:30
Speaker 2: own survival counts on your feet are melting away and
1:56:34
Speaker 2: you need to take a clean parass out of a
1:56:37
Speaker 2: dead guy's ruck. And that is and then there's the
1:56:40
Speaker 2: brutality of it, you know, the carnage that we saw
1:56:43
Speaker 2: in Fallujah. You have to become you have to steal
1:56:46
Speaker 2: yourself to it. You know. I talk about this with
1:56:48
Speaker 2: my family and I little talk about a little bit
1:56:50
Speaker 2: in the book. But the three weeks before I would
1:56:52
Speaker 2: deploy to Iraq specifically, remember I did three tours in
1:56:56
Speaker 2: Iraq before I was twenty one years old. I have
1:56:58
Speaker 2: my twenty first birthday. I think it was an Iraq right,
1:57:02
Speaker 2: And that's a lot for a young man to go through.
1:57:04
Speaker 2: And all of us, none of us believed that we
1:57:06
Speaker 2: were going to make it to twenty five because everybody
1:57:08
Speaker 2: was dying everyway. The conflict just never stopped it, you know,
1:57:11
Speaker 2: we never thought it was going to stop. But the
1:57:13
Speaker 2: three weeks before I would deploy, I would turn into
1:57:16
Speaker 2: an animal. I would slowly start to erode the conversation
1:57:20
Speaker 2: that you and I have right, empathetic, compassionate talk. That
1:57:23
Speaker 2: wasn't there. That human had to go away because it
1:57:26
Speaker 2: came to kill or be killed, right same survival. It
1:57:30
Speaker 2: was animalistic, it was human, it was raw, and I
1:57:34
Speaker 2: had to become that and I had to become calloused
1:57:36
Speaker 2: to that. And we've dealt a lot with that.
1:57:39
Speaker 1: But the enemy does that too very much. I think
1:57:41
Speaker 1: that's something we don't fully appreciate the.
1:57:44
Speaker 2: Hardest part about coming home was coming home with your
1:57:47
Speaker 2: soul intact, making sure that you didn't do things overseas
1:57:51
Speaker 2: that left you lying awake at night. And I you know,
1:57:55
Speaker 2: I was put into a lot of situations as a
1:57:57
Speaker 2: young man that I shouldn't have been. And I will
1:58:00
Speaker 2: go and I have been, and I will go on
1:58:02
Speaker 2: record and say that I'm upset with what we were
1:58:06
Speaker 2: told going into Iraq.
1:58:08
Speaker 1: I think you were too young, Is that what it is?
1:58:10
Speaker 1: Or you didn't think or the mission itself to.
1:58:13
Speaker 2: Be honest with you, we didn't care, right, So this
1:58:15
Speaker 2: is a hard part, right, people like to I will
1:58:20
Speaker 2: have I will throw fists if people ever talk poorly
1:58:23
Speaker 2: on the United States Military service members, right because I
1:58:26
Speaker 2: love them with every fiber of my being. It was
1:58:28
Speaker 2: so hard. And I look at these young men now
1:58:31
Speaker 2: and young women that I talk to in the Marines
1:58:32
Speaker 2: because I live near a base and so I get
1:58:34
Speaker 2: to talk with them. It's not that they want to
1:58:36
Speaker 2: go to war. What they want to do is validate
1:58:39
Speaker 2: their experience. They want to validate that all of their
1:58:42
Speaker 2: sacrifices and all of their pain and misery and suffering
1:58:45
Speaker 2: to get to where they're at has been validated by
1:58:48
Speaker 2: the theater of combat. Right, and so you're not going
1:58:51
Speaker 2: to talk to the United States Marine out of wanting combat.
1:58:54
Speaker 2: That's who they are. But again, that has to be
1:58:58
Speaker 2: wielded very care and our public leaders at any level
1:59:02
Speaker 2: who's advocating for war or sending us to war need
1:59:05
Speaker 2: to understand that that social contract must be protected. It
1:59:09
Speaker 2: must be preserved because these young men and women are
1:59:11
Speaker 2: willing to die. We write a blank check to the
1:59:14
Speaker 2: United States, payable with our lives, and if that's not protected.
1:59:19
Speaker 2: The only time that I get upset at people is
1:59:21
Speaker 2: when people do not honor the commitment that we have
1:59:23
Speaker 2: made to our country. I'm okay with dying for my country.
1:59:27
Speaker 2: I'm perfectly okay with it, but it has to be
1:59:29
Speaker 2: for a just cause, and when I find out that
1:59:31
Speaker 2: it's not that we fought a war of choice and
1:59:34
Speaker 2: one war of necessity during my timeframe, I get upset.
1:59:48
Speaker 1: You know, you're unusual in that you talk about your experiences.
1:59:51
Speaker 1: I've got family members, some who are no longer with
1:59:54
Speaker 1: us and some who still are, who don't really have
1:59:58
Speaker 1: no interest in telling you what happened in Vietnam or
2:00:01
Speaker 1: telling you what happened in World War Two.
2:00:06
Speaker 2: You have kids, I do not.
2:00:11
Speaker 1: You seem comfortable telling your story, and you, I'm sure
2:00:14
Speaker 1: have come across quite a few veterans who say I couldn't.
2:00:18
Speaker 1: I couldn't write about what you wrote about. Explain that
2:00:24
Speaker 1: mentality for some What have you learned about that over
2:00:26
Speaker 1: the years where you've been able to express this and
2:00:29
Speaker 1: not a lot of people can. So there's a couple
2:00:33
Speaker 1: of things.
2:00:35
Speaker 2: One, inside of the Marine Corps culture, it is very
2:00:39
Speaker 2: heavily frowned upon. It's not not an official doctor inemyment,
2:00:41
Speaker 2: but it's very heavily frowned upon. To you get grief
2:00:43
Speaker 2: for this from fellow marines. Actually, no, you know, it's
2:00:47
Speaker 2: it's part of our culture not to write, because it's
2:00:51
Speaker 2: always to the team. It's always to the unit. It's
2:00:53
Speaker 2: always to you know, the Marine Corps, and that matters,
2:00:55
Speaker 2: and that matters, and that is part of our service.
2:00:58
Speaker 2: What I wanted to do is write to give other
2:01:00
Speaker 2: people permission to share their story, because a lot and
2:01:04
Speaker 2: I sit with veterans almost on a daily basis on
2:01:07
Speaker 2: my show, and I sit and talk with them, and
2:01:09
Speaker 2: I just asked them what happened out there? And these
2:01:12
Speaker 2: young men and women sit with me and they feel seen,
2:01:14
Speaker 2: they feel heard, they feel validated that their sacrifices were
2:01:18
Speaker 2: for something, right, that somebody else cares enough to listen
2:01:22
Speaker 2: and just share their story and have a conversation. It's
2:01:24
Speaker 2: not through self aggrandizement, right. I don't think that I
2:01:27
Speaker 2: was God's gift to the military. I don't at all.
2:01:29
Speaker 2: And so, but what I did was I was smart
2:01:32
Speaker 2: enough as a sniper and as a tactician to understand
2:01:36
Speaker 2: that the sniper versus sniper's story was something that that's
2:01:40
Speaker 2: the hook. That's the hook to talk about whatever I wanted.
2:01:44
Speaker 2: And so I wanted to get in there and say, Okay,
2:01:45
Speaker 2: I've got this thing. Now I can tell a story
2:01:48
Speaker 2: about the sniper thing, and that can go and we
2:01:50
Speaker 2: can write the thing and turn it into a movie
2:01:51
Speaker 2: and make a million land all that stuff. That's right anymore, absolutely,
2:01:55
Speaker 2: But that's not the reality of my experience. And who
2:01:58
Speaker 2: would I be. How would I be honor the service
2:02:01
Speaker 2: and the help that people gave me, the sacrifice that
2:02:04
Speaker 2: they gave me. How would I be honoring that by
2:02:06
Speaker 2: stepping on a pedestal and telling the world of how
2:02:08
Speaker 2: great I am. What I want to do is use
2:02:10
Speaker 2: this as a tool to tell other people. It's up
2:02:13
Speaker 2: to us. Nobody's coming to save us. This division that
2:02:16
Speaker 2: we have whatever, and I'm not naive to it. I
2:02:19
Speaker 2: see it too, but God, we got to reach across
2:02:21
Speaker 2: the aisle and whatever it is. Sit next to the
2:02:24
Speaker 2: person on the airplane watching the cable news that you
2:02:27
Speaker 2: don't like, and be like, hey, man or woman, how's
2:02:29
Speaker 2: it going today? You're not my enemy. I cannot and
2:02:33
Speaker 2: will not ever support a person who says that another
2:02:37
Speaker 2: political party is an enemy of our country. I cannot.
2:02:40
Speaker 2: I don't care what political party says it, but a
2:02:43
Speaker 2: Republican or a Democrat, a Democrat is not an enemy
2:02:47
Speaker 2: to the United States. We are Americans and we have
2:02:49
Speaker 2: to get past that. And so I write a book
2:02:52
Speaker 2: that is deeply political, but it's not partisan. The goal
2:02:56
Speaker 2: that I wrote through this is I don't want any
2:02:58
Speaker 2: person to know what my political affiliation is. I don't
2:03:01
Speaker 2: want any person to know what my faith is. I'm
2:03:04
Speaker 2: purposely obscure about it because it shouldn't be about that.
2:03:08
Speaker 2: It's about service. It's about the brotherhood and the sisterhood
2:03:11
Speaker 2: that we have. And that is why I understood the
2:03:14
Speaker 2: gravity of this. You want a sniper story, I'd give
2:03:17
Speaker 2: you a sniper story. Take six, you know, sixty thousand words,
2:03:20
Speaker 2: I'll get you the coolest sniper story of all time.
2:03:22
Speaker 2: I didn't want to write a sniper story. I wanted
2:03:24
Speaker 2: to write. I wanted to write a story about my
2:03:26
Speaker 2: friends and my family in America and give us permission
2:03:30
Speaker 2: to believe something different. Well, you should be proud.
2:03:34
Speaker 1: Tell me about Combat Story the podcast, which should people
2:03:37
Speaker 1: expect If my folks want to go over and listen.
2:03:40
Speaker 2: That's very kind of you, Chuck. I really do appreciate that.
2:03:43
Speaker 2: Is Combat Story? Is this is it? Man? Like? I'm
2:03:46
Speaker 2: like a real American, right Like, this is my office
2:03:49
Speaker 2: in my house, right, you know, like I rite, you know,
2:03:52
Speaker 2: I'm a normal person, you know, I still get yelled
2:03:54
Speaker 2: at for not putting the dishes away. Right. Let's just
2:03:56
Speaker 2: there's no like, there's no celebrity thing here. Right. I
2:03:59
Speaker 2: bring that into my home, right. And I live in Carlsbad, California. Right,
2:04:04
Speaker 2: And I bring veterans into my home and we sit
2:04:06
Speaker 2: down veterans of service. It's called combat story, right, But
2:04:10
Speaker 2: if you were a story of cert doesn't have to
2:04:13
Speaker 2: be combat. If you're a firefighter, if you're a teacher,
2:04:15
Speaker 2: if you're a you give your life and you dedicate
2:04:18
Speaker 2: your life to other people. You have a home here,
2:04:20
Speaker 2: and I want to hear about it, and I want
2:04:21
Speaker 2: to sit with you, and I want to talk about
2:04:23
Speaker 2: that we have. I have, you know, a small following, right,
2:04:27
Speaker 2: you know, it's it's it's but it's our little corner
2:04:30
Speaker 2: of the internet. And in our little corner of the Internet,
2:04:32
Speaker 2: we choose light. I don't choose darkness. I choose light.
2:04:36
Speaker 2: I want to sit and I want to highlight the
2:04:38
Speaker 2: good parts about who we are. I want to get
2:04:40
Speaker 2: down to the to the hard conversations that we have.
2:04:43
Speaker 2: What I tell people is I'm looking for context over content.
2:04:48
Speaker 2: I don't care what people who they pray to. I
2:04:51
Speaker 2: don't care who they voted for. I'm not trying to
2:04:53
Speaker 2: sell people a protein shake. I want them to sit
2:04:55
Speaker 2: down and get to the raw ist form of human
2:04:57
Speaker 2: emotion and that's connection. And so we get a chance
2:05:01
Speaker 2: to do that, and it's been the honor of my
2:05:03
Speaker 2: lifetime to do that. Second honor of my lifetime was
2:05:06
Speaker 2: I did have a chance to run for public office
2:05:08
Speaker 2: and that was one of the did you tell me about?
2:05:11
Speaker 2: What did you rent for San Jose City Council? And
2:05:14
Speaker 2: I retired out of the Marines and stars in my eyes, right,
2:05:18
Speaker 2: you know, American flag behind me, and I was like,
2:05:22
Speaker 2: I'm going to you know, serve my community that I
2:05:24
Speaker 2: came from. And it was the highlight of my life.
2:05:27
Speaker 2: I got a chance. I'm not a candidate for money.
2:05:29
Speaker 2: I didn't have any of that kind of stuff. And
2:05:30
Speaker 2: you know, I've learned a lot. Money is a tool
2:05:33
Speaker 2: and is a resource. It's like a bullet for a
2:05:35
Speaker 2: machine gun. Right, I didn't have that. So what I
2:05:38
Speaker 2: chose to do was I chose to use I'm a grunt,
2:05:41
Speaker 2: so I used my feet. I knocked on doors for
2:05:44
Speaker 2: seven hours a day, seven days a week, for five
2:05:46
Speaker 2: months straight. I knocked personally knocked on thirteen four hundred doors.
2:05:50
Speaker 2: I didn't care if you were a Democrat. I didn't
2:05:52
Speaker 2: care if you were a Republican. I didn't care if
2:05:54
Speaker 2: you were an independent. We had a conversation, and I
2:05:57
Speaker 2: gave every single one of those people my phone, and
2:06:01
Speaker 2: I got to meet America. I got to meet people
2:06:05
Speaker 2: of all walks of life who wanted one thing. They
2:06:07
Speaker 2: wanted their politicians to be accountable, and they wanted people
2:06:11
Speaker 2: to feel like they had a better opportunity for tomorrow
2:06:15
Speaker 2: than they have today. That's a politician or a leader's
2:06:18
Speaker 2: first job is to give people the opportunity for a
2:06:20
Speaker 2: better tomorrow than they have today. And I loved every
2:06:23
Speaker 2: minute of it. Well that's a lie. It sucked politics rough, right,
2:06:28
Speaker 2: But I love talking with the people. I was unsuccessful,
2:06:32
Speaker 2: and you're.
2:06:32
Speaker 1: Talking about it in the past, tense. You're not going
2:06:34
Speaker 1: to do this again.
2:06:38
Speaker 2: I don't know that our I mentioned political purity and
2:06:44
Speaker 2: partisan you know purity tests. Our current system does not
2:06:48
Speaker 2: allow for dialogue. It allows for diatribes, and I am interested.
2:06:53
Speaker 2: I don't come from a background of partisanship. I come
2:06:57
Speaker 2: from a background of service. If you have a good idea,
2:06:59
Speaker 2: I want to hear it, and unfortunately, you know, in
2:07:02
Speaker 2: our space there's just not a lot of a lot
2:07:05
Speaker 2: of room for that. I won't shut the door on
2:07:08
Speaker 2: it because I love I love America, right, but like
2:07:12
Speaker 2: it was brutal. Look I think, look, I get it.
2:07:16
Speaker 1: I wouldn't advise anybody to run as a partisan, but
2:07:20
Speaker 1: we kind of need to sort of. You know, sometimes
2:07:25
Speaker 1: sometimes in order for a institution to reform itself, it
2:07:30
Speaker 1: has to be threatened from the outside. It can't be
2:07:33
Speaker 1: reformed from the inside. And I think our two major
2:07:37
Speaker 1: parties do not know how to reform themselves, and they
2:07:41
Speaker 1: have to be threatened from the outside. And so the
2:07:45
Speaker 1: more the more folks threaten as independence and wedge sort
2:07:49
Speaker 1: of sort of you know, like anything, it's a free market, right,
2:07:53
Speaker 1: and unfortunately, the way we construct our politics is it's
2:07:57
Speaker 1: not a free market. It's a duopoly, right, It's not.
2:07:59
Speaker 1: It's that sort of makes it really hard to have
2:08:02
Speaker 1: this free market discussion, this free market of ideas. But look,
2:08:08
Speaker 1: you're at least in a state that doesn't make you
2:08:10
Speaker 1: have to be a member of a party to get
2:08:13
Speaker 1: on a primary ballot, and that's a big step. Most
2:08:16
Speaker 1: states don't even allow that. So I do think we
2:08:21
Speaker 1: need more politicians who don't identify with a party. If
2:08:25
Speaker 1: I'm out sort of, I think it would help reimagine,
2:08:28
Speaker 1: allow people to reimagine what elected public service could be,
2:08:33
Speaker 1: because right now it feels as if you have to
2:08:35
Speaker 1: pick a team if you want to be in public service,
2:08:37
Speaker 1: and that's that's uncomfortable for some people. It's really uncomfortable
2:08:41
Speaker 1: for me, and I can see it's very uncomfortable for you,
2:08:45
Speaker 1: and then eliminates a whole bunch of people that might
2:08:47
Speaker 1: be pretty good at this.
2:08:49
Speaker 2: It does you know there is a there's a barrier
2:08:53
Speaker 2: to entry, and unfortunately you know, well I don't. I
2:08:57
Speaker 2: would love to have a very long conversation with you
2:09:00
Speaker 2: about this. But the barrier to entry right now is
2:09:02
Speaker 2: money and if and it's just a resource, right, but
2:09:05
Speaker 2: if people don't have that like that, you just I tried.
2:09:10
Speaker 2: I tried to outwork money. It didn't work, but I learned,
2:09:13
Speaker 2: you know, I learned a lot from it, and I
2:09:15
Speaker 2: want to be able to I think why I'm open
2:09:18
Speaker 2: about my run is not because I'm advocating. For a second,
2:09:21
Speaker 2: I want people to know that I all of my resume.
2:09:25
Speaker 2: You can read the whole thing. It's you know whatever,
2:09:27
Speaker 2: It's all these accolades, and I'm still failing. I'm still
2:09:30
Speaker 2: losing at things, and that's okay, right, And that's okay.
2:09:34
Speaker 2: Failure is a part of success, and I think that
2:09:36
Speaker 2: really matters for people. I think that I get so
2:09:39
Speaker 2: mad at social media. I engage with it at length now,
2:09:42
Speaker 2: or I would say at a distance now, because I
2:09:45
Speaker 2: have to in this space social media for these young kids.
2:09:49
Speaker 2: I couldn't imagine, you know. I look at people's it's
2:09:52
Speaker 2: all highlight reels. Nobody shows like a Monday and Tuesday.
2:09:55
Speaker 2: Nobody has an honest conversation about you know, what it
2:09:57
Speaker 2: was like to run as a as a candidate who
2:09:59
Speaker 2: try not to be able to do partisan politics. It
2:10:02
Speaker 2: was isolating, is the word I would use. It was
2:10:04
Speaker 2: alone and you've got to take a giant pill on
2:10:08
Speaker 2: either side whatever you want. And that's very hard for people.
2:10:11
Speaker 2: And so also I think that the general consensus, you
2:10:14
Speaker 2: want to know, I fall in the lowest tier of people.
2:10:17
Speaker 2: If I'm knocking on your door during dinnertime, right like,
2:10:20
Speaker 2: and I'm like hanging out with the collar shirt, right,
2:10:23
Speaker 2: you fall in the lowest tier people. Don't want to be.
2:10:25
Speaker 2: I think with the common another is not a lot
2:10:26
Speaker 2: of people trust politicians anymore, and so lots of politicians
2:10:31
Speaker 2: have given politicians a bad name. Correct, that's well said.
2:10:36
Speaker 2: Never played chess with a pigeon. And I think that
2:10:40
Speaker 2: what I wanted to show people was that failures were
2:10:42
Speaker 2: part of life. And if they find out and I
2:10:44
Speaker 2: didn't mention any of my political run in the book
2:10:46
Speaker 2: because it didn't need to be there, and it's okay
2:10:48
Speaker 2: that people still see that I fell on my face,
2:10:50
Speaker 2: but I did it with my I kept my honor clean,
2:10:53
Speaker 2: and I ran a good race. And if they could
2:10:55
Speaker 2: do that in anything that they do in life, not politics,
2:10:57
Speaker 2: whatever it is, they can do that and anything in
2:10:58
Speaker 2: that they want in life, then they'll be okay. If
2:11:01
Speaker 2: this book right, If I poured my heart into this
2:11:04
Speaker 2: entire book and two years of my life and bleeding
2:11:07
Speaker 2: on the pages, and we sell four copies, that's okay
2:11:11
Speaker 2: because I did it with a full heart and a
2:11:13
Speaker 2: sound mind. And at the end of the day, if
2:11:15
Speaker 2: you do anything in life and you fail at that,
2:11:18
Speaker 2: that's okay. That's okay.
2:11:20
Speaker 1: Let me let's get out of here on this this
2:11:22
Speaker 1: this interview is going to air on Memorial Day, so
2:11:24
Speaker 1: a lot of people will be listening to it on Monday.
2:11:27
Speaker 1: Maybe it's an off day. How do What do you
2:11:32
Speaker 1: think about a Memorial Day?
2:11:35
Speaker 2: Memorial Day is tough for me. I want to recognize
2:11:38
Speaker 2: that Memorial Day is not Veterans Day. There are two
2:11:42
Speaker 2: very distinct holidays. Memorial Day is about those who didn't
2:11:45
Speaker 2: come home and the families that have been left to
2:11:48
Speaker 2: deal with the aftershock. I would advocate that any person
2:11:55
Speaker 2: who calls for war or armed conflict, have a conversation
2:12:00
Speaker 2: with a gold Star family member, sit across from them
2:12:04
Speaker 2: and ask them if their sons, or their daughters, or
2:12:07
Speaker 2: their husbands or their wife's sacrifice was worth it. And
2:12:11
Speaker 2: a lot of them will actually tell you yes, because
2:12:13
Speaker 2: they believe in this thing. They believe in this country,
2:12:16
Speaker 2: and they believe what it stands for. On Memorial Day,
2:12:19
Speaker 2: I sit and I think of the dozens of friends
2:12:21
Speaker 2: that I have spent time with and lost, and dark
2:12:25
Speaker 2: Horse is my tribute to them. I have one paragraph
2:12:28
Speaker 2: on one page, as I'm moving through a story, to
2:12:31
Speaker 2: tell a mother who survived her son's death how much
2:12:34
Speaker 2: her son meant to me. To tell a father who
2:12:38
Speaker 2: lost their son, to tell a brother who lost their
2:12:41
Speaker 2: sister what they meant to us and that their sacrifice matter.
2:12:45
Speaker 2: And Memorial Day, what I would look to do is
2:12:48
Speaker 2: if I were to implore anything on any civilian is
2:12:50
Speaker 2: to on Memorial Day, find something, find an organization, reach
2:12:54
Speaker 2: out that has to do with the family members that
2:12:57
Speaker 2: are left behind, because that is a gap, that is
2:12:59
Speaker 2: a chasm that will never be filled. Thank them, make
2:13:03
Speaker 2: their day a little lighter, buy them dinner, just give
2:13:06
Speaker 2: them a hug. At the end of the day. That's
2:13:09
Speaker 2: all they ever want is to know that their son, daughter,
2:13:11
Speaker 2: husband or wife will not be forgotten and tell them.
2:13:14
Speaker 1: That that was great. Thank you and aj I Just
2:13:20
Speaker 1: like I said, I remember the first Vietnam book I
2:13:23
Speaker 1: read that I felt like truly sort of explained what
2:13:27
Speaker 1: it was, what just life is like in the military
2:13:30
Speaker 1: in that period, and that, to me, was was what
2:13:34
Speaker 1: I got out of this. Your story, in many ways
2:13:36
Speaker 1: is a lot. Look, you have some things that are remarkable,
2:13:40
Speaker 1: but a lot of your story is the story that
2:13:42
Speaker 1: a lot of other people have lived and not been
2:13:44
Speaker 1: able to tell about it. So I think it's a
2:13:48
Speaker 1: I think I worry that we're going to gloss over
2:13:50
Speaker 1: this generation of veterans be for a variety of reasons.
2:13:56
Speaker 1: Part of it is the speed with which we consume information. Instance,
2:13:59
Speaker 1: like what happened five years ago feels like fifty years ago,
2:14:02
Speaker 1: So there's a little bit of that. I'm sort of
2:14:04
Speaker 1: you know, I don't think people intentionally want to not
2:14:07
Speaker 1: live in it right. But you know, it took us
2:14:09
Speaker 1: a while to get Vietnam right. Historically, I worry it's
2:14:14
Speaker 1: still taking us time to get Iraq in Afghanistan right.
2:14:17
Speaker 1: And this feels like the beginning of what could be
2:14:20
Speaker 1: a period of first hand accounts like yours that we'll
2:14:25
Speaker 1: be able to pain a more complete picture because time
2:14:28
Speaker 1: allows for it. So anyway, I highly recommend it. Congratulations
2:14:32
Speaker 1: in the book, and thank you for it.
2:14:34
Speaker 2: Thank you Chuck for spending the time with me. Thank
2:14:36
Speaker 2: you for reading it. Because you read about my friends,
2:14:38
Speaker 2: you read about my family members, right, these people that
2:14:41
Speaker 2: just you know, as long as we keep their memory alive,
2:14:45
Speaker 2: then they will never die, and so things like this,
2:14:48
Speaker 2: they're sacrificing the things that they didn't love for each other.
2:14:51
Speaker 2: That matters. Thank you so much for taking the time
2:14:53
Speaker 2: to sit with us today. Thanks for the interview, you know,
2:14:56
Speaker 2: and thanks for reading the book.
2:14:58
Speaker 1: All right, hopefully I'll see it down the road. I'll
2:14:59
Speaker 1: look free on the ballot soon. All right, Thanks Aj,
2:15:05
Speaker 1: Thanks Jack. I hope you take a listen to his
2:15:16
Speaker 1: podcast if those of you that are interested in how
2:15:21
Speaker 1: our military is working in general.
2:15:23
Speaker 2: I think that.
2:15:27
Speaker 1: I think what he does on his podcast, which is
2:15:32
Speaker 1: called Combat Story, I think it's a good listen for
2:15:37
Speaker 1: those of you that want to hear more about what
2:15:40
Speaker 1: it's like whether and he does more than just I
2:15:43
Speaker 1: think he said so, he does more than just those
2:15:45
Speaker 1: that have been in war. He also combat stories for
2:15:48
Speaker 1: first responders around the country and things like that. So
2:15:51
Speaker 1: definitely worth a listen. And I'm glad to have gotten
2:15:53
Speaker 1: to know Aj. All right, let's do our little history
2:15:58
Speaker 1: lesson for the week. Let's go into the Todd Asked
2:16:00
Speaker 1: time machine. So I'm doing another Memorial Day theme here,
2:16:12
Speaker 1: but it's a little bit different. It's it's getting at
2:16:17
Speaker 1: the roots of Memorial Day in this country, but also
2:16:23
Speaker 1: and how countries in general remember war and why they
2:16:28
Speaker 1: remember war. Every country honors its wardet. But what's interesting
2:16:33
Speaker 1: is that no two countries do it exactly the same way.
2:16:37
Speaker 1: Some remember through silence, literal silence, some through military parades,
2:16:43
Speaker 1: some through mourning, some through triumph, and many and those
2:16:47
Speaker 1: differences matter because Memorial holidays are not just about honoring sacrifice.
2:16:53
Speaker 1: They're about storytelling. They're about a story a country tells
2:16:58
Speaker 1: itself and the story it wants the rest of.
2:17:01
Speaker 2: The world to hear.
2:17:03
Speaker 1: About war, sacrifice, victory, defeat, guilt, survival, and national identity.
2:17:09
Speaker 1: And America's version is especially interesting because Memorial Day wasn't
2:17:13
Speaker 1: born from victory over another country. It was born from
2:17:17
Speaker 1: a country trying to recover from a war against itself.
2:17:22
Speaker 1: To understand Memorial Day, you have to begin with the
2:17:24
Speaker 1: Civil War. More than six hundred thousand Americans dead, communities, shattered, families, divided,
2:17:32
Speaker 1: American dead buried across American soil. This wasn't distant overseas
2:17:39
Speaker 1: or abstract. It was intimate. It's local, it was personal,
2:17:43
Speaker 1: and when the war ended, the country didn't just need laws,
2:17:47
Speaker 1: it needed rituals. People began decorating graves with flowers. Some
2:17:53
Speaker 1: of this happened informally in towns across the country. One
2:17:56
Speaker 1: of the most powerful early stories comes from Charlson, South Carolina,
2:18:02
Speaker 1: in May of eighteen sixty five, just weeks after the
2:18:05
Speaker 1: Confederacy was surrendered formally, enslaved people organized a ceremony at
2:18:11
Speaker 1: a former racecourse that had been used as a Confederate
2:18:15
Speaker 1: prison camp. Union soldiers had died there and been buried
2:18:19
Speaker 1: in a mass grave. The freed people reburied them, properly,
2:18:25
Speaker 1: marked the graves individually, and held a procession to honor them.
2:18:30
Speaker 1: Now historians still debate exactly how directly that ceremony connects
2:18:34
Speaker 1: to the formal origin of Memorial Day itself. The story
2:18:38
Speaker 1: matters because it reminds us that from the beginning, this
2:18:43
Speaker 1: holiday was also about who gets remembered and whose acts
2:18:47
Speaker 1: of remembrance get written into our national story.
2:18:53
Speaker 2: Then, in eighteen.
2:18:53
Speaker 1: Sixty eight, the tradition began to get formalized nationally. Major
2:18:58
Speaker 1: General John Logan, Commander of the Grand Army of the Republic,
2:19:02
Speaker 1: issues General Orders Number eleven on May fifth, eighteen sixty eight,
2:19:07
Speaker 1: and this order designates May thirtieth as Decoration Day, a
2:19:11
Speaker 1: day for decorating the graves of those who died quote
2:19:15
Speaker 1: in defense of their country during the late Rebellion, and
2:19:19
Speaker 1: May thirtieth is chosen partly because flowers would be blooming nationwide,
2:19:24
Speaker 1: and because it wasn't tied to any specific battle, and
2:19:28
Speaker 1: that's important. This was not Gettysburg Day, Appomatics Day, or
2:19:33
Speaker 1: Victory Day. It was simply a day for graves for
2:19:38
Speaker 1: flowers for morning. Memorial Day began less as a celebration
2:19:44
Speaker 1: of victory than as a collective grieving ritual after the
2:19:48
Speaker 1: bloodiest conflict in American history, and that origin matters because,
2:19:54
Speaker 1: unlike many national memorial traditions, America's begins not with triumph
2:19:59
Speaker 1: but with recovery. Memorial Day begins not with victory, but
2:20:03
Speaker 1: with recovery. The United States wasn't trying to celebrate defeating
2:20:08
Speaker 1: a foreign enemy. It was trying to hold itself together
2:20:11
Speaker 1: after almost destroying itself. And because Memorial Day comes out
2:20:18
Speaker 1: of the Civil War, it actually carries tension from the start. Originally,
2:20:23
Speaker 1: Decoration Day was largely a Union memorial tradition. In fact,
2:20:26
Speaker 1: many Southern states maintained separate Confederate memorial observances for decades.
2:20:32
Speaker 1: It really wasn't until after World War One that the
2:20:35
Speaker 1: holiday began to evolve into something broader, honoring Americans killed
2:20:40
Speaker 1: in all wars, not just the Civil War, and that
2:20:44
Speaker 1: expansion matters because it transforms the holiday from sectional memory
2:20:50
Speaker 1: into national memory, from Union dead to American death. And
2:20:56
Speaker 1: maybe that helps explain why Memorial they never becomes purely triumphalous, right,
2:21:02
Speaker 1: why it never fully becomes about victory, because its emotional
2:21:07
Speaker 1: DNA comes from reconciliation after internal fracture. And maybe that
2:21:15
Speaker 1: also explains why Memorial Day eventually becomes about parades, baseball, cookouts,
2:21:21
Speaker 1: family gatherings, the unofficial start of summer, and critics sometimes
2:21:26
Speaker 1: frame that that we're forgetting the purpose of Memorial Day.
2:21:32
Speaker 1: I think, after doing my research here, I think I
2:21:35
Speaker 1: don't believe that. Maybe there's another way to understand it.
2:21:38
Speaker 1: Maybe Memorial Day became barbecues and the unofficial start of
2:21:41
Speaker 1: summer because Americans discovered that gathering together mattered more than
2:21:48
Speaker 1: agreeing together. Because after a Civil war, social cohesion itself
2:21:55
Speaker 1: becomes part of the national project, and Memorial Day becomes
2:21:59
Speaker 1: one of the few rituals Americans can still participate in
2:22:02
Speaker 1: together even when they no longer agree on wars, politics,
2:22:08
Speaker 1: More than even the direction of the country. Nobody says
2:22:15
Speaker 1: we shouldn't honor our dead, American often memorializes the soldier
2:22:22
Speaker 1: more comfortably than it memorializes the argument over the war itself,
2:22:28
Speaker 1: and that becomes especially true after Vietnam. And this is
2:22:33
Speaker 1: where Memorial Day becomes really revealing, because every country tells
2:22:37
Speaker 1: itself a story about war, and memorial holidays are where
2:22:41
Speaker 1: those stories become ritual. So I thought I'd take a
2:22:47
Speaker 1: tour of the world and how they do it. Canada
2:22:50
Speaker 1: and the United Kingdom have Remembrance Day on November eleventh.
2:22:56
Speaker 2: Poppies.
2:22:57
Speaker 1: I've been in Canada for Remembrance Day. In fact, they've
2:23:00
Speaker 1: got this plastic poppy I still have. I love the
2:23:03
Speaker 1: poppy thing. I wish we'd added poppies to our memorial
2:23:06
Speaker 1: They remembers, but their rituals include poppies, silence, and ceremonies.
2:23:11
Speaker 1: Both countries root their remembrance culture heavily in World War One.
2:23:15
Speaker 1: For Britain, the trenches, the poetry, the quote lost generation.
2:23:18
Speaker 1: And for Canada, World War One becomes part of the
2:23:21
Speaker 1: country's emergence into a distinct national identity. They weren't just
2:23:25
Speaker 1: sort of a piece of the British crown, right, But
2:23:30
Speaker 1: Britain remembers war through loss.
2:23:33
Speaker 2: That's important. Contrast that to Russia.
2:23:36
Speaker 1: Victory Day May ninth, Russia's memorial culture come almostly the
2:23:40
Speaker 1: complete opposite. Victory Day centers on Soviet victory over Nazi
2:23:44
Speaker 1: Germany and World War Two. So there are military parades,
2:23:48
Speaker 1: there are weapons displays. It's about triumph. It's part of
2:23:51
Speaker 1: that national identity, right because World War II functions in
2:23:54
Speaker 1: Russia not simply as history but as foundational national legitimacy. Right,
2:24:00
Speaker 1: they were on the side of the winners, and it
2:24:02
Speaker 1: embedded that communist.
2:24:06
Speaker 2: Power for decades.
2:24:08
Speaker 1: But what's interesting is how even recent Victory Day celebrations
2:24:12
Speaker 1: reflected the present moment. The parades in Moscow were scaled
2:24:15
Speaker 1: back earlier this month, and they were heavily securitized because
2:24:19
Speaker 1: of fears of Ukrainian attacks. Even rituals of triumph can
2:24:24
Speaker 1: reveal anxiety. Russia remembers war as victory, but even victory
2:24:29
Speaker 1: rituals can reveal insecurity. Then there's what Germany now does. Volkstrauertag.
2:24:37
Speaker 1: Germany's memorial culture is obviously quite restrained.
2:24:41
Speaker 2: It's very careful.
2:24:42
Speaker 1: After World War II, military nationalism became morally dangerous terrain,
2:24:47
Speaker 1: so remembrance focus is less on triumph and more on mourning,
2:24:50
Speaker 1: responsibility and a warning.
2:24:54
Speaker 2: Let's just say.
2:24:55
Speaker 1: Germany remembers war cautiously. In Israel, it's ya has A
2:25:01
Speaker 1: chiron I hope I said that correctly, it's one of
2:25:05
Speaker 1: the most emotionally intense memorial traditions in the world. Literally,
2:25:09
Speaker 1: sirens stop traffic nationwide. People will stand silently in highways
2:25:14
Speaker 1: and intersections because in Israel, military sacrifice is deeply personal
2:25:19
Speaker 1: and nearly universal because just about everybody has to serve.
2:25:24
Speaker 1: In Japan, their remembrance culture is heavily shaped by Hiroshima Nagasaki,
2:25:30
Speaker 1: the civilian suffering and defeat, and World War Two, So
2:25:33
Speaker 1: when Japan remembers war, they do it less through military
2:25:36
Speaker 1: glory and more through loss, peace and anti war reflection.
2:25:42
Speaker 1: China's Memorial Day is September third. They call it Victory
2:25:45
Speaker 1: Over Japan Day. This commemorates victory in the Second Sino
2:25:49
Speaker 1: Japanese War, which merged into World War II. The memory
2:25:53
Speaker 1: emphasizes resistance, anti imperial struggle, national unity, and Communist party legitimacy,
2:26:01
Speaker 1: so China, like Russia, uses it as a sort of
2:26:05
Speaker 1: legitimizer For South Korea Memorial Days June sixth, South Korea's
2:26:10
Speaker 1: it honors their military debt and of course they have.
2:26:12
Speaker 1: The unresolved Korean War is always in the background. India
2:26:17
Speaker 1: has the Cargo of vj DWAs on July twenty sixth.
2:26:22
Speaker 1: It's rooted in the nineteen ninety nine Cargil War with Pakistan.
2:26:26
Speaker 1: India's memorial culture emphasizes sacrifice, sovereignty and national unity, so
2:26:32
Speaker 1: there's a nationalism aspect of that. Australia and New Zealand
2:26:36
Speaker 1: have a Zach Day on April twenty fifth. It's built
2:26:39
Speaker 1: around the Gallipoli Campaign during World War One, a failed
2:26:43
Speaker 1: military campaign that transformed into a foundational national identity ritual
2:26:48
Speaker 1: for both countries. Nigeria has Armed Forces Rememberance Day on
2:26:52
Speaker 1: January fifteenth, originally tied to the British Commonwealth Remembrance tradition,
2:26:57
Speaker 1: but they moved the date and to mark the end
2:26:59
Speaker 1: of the Nigerian Civil War in nineteen seventy. So, like America,
2:27:03
Speaker 1: Nigeria ultimately anchored its memorial culture not around defeating another country,
2:27:08
Speaker 1: but around surviving internal fracture. Argentina has the Day of
2:27:13
Speaker 1: the Veterans and Fallen of the Malvenus War on April second.
2:27:18
Speaker 1: Their memorial culture reflects the country still trying to separate
2:27:21
Speaker 1: the sacrifice of soldiers from the failures of the military
2:27:23
Speaker 1: government that sent them to a war they lost. Spain
2:27:28
Speaker 1: remains deeply divided over civil war memory itself, which makes
2:27:32
Speaker 1: national remembrance more fragmented in that country and politically cautious.
2:27:38
Speaker 1: But this is the real lesson of why I wanted
2:27:39
Speaker 1: to go through that a little bit, is that countries
2:27:41
Speaker 1: don't just remember wars. They choose, right, This is about storytelling.
2:27:45
Speaker 1: They choose which wars define them, They choose which sacrifices
2:27:50
Speaker 1: unite them, and which memories become inconvenient. So every country
2:27:56
Speaker 1: remembers its war debt, but the wars it emphasize and
2:28:00
Speaker 1: the tone it chooses reveal the story the country tells
2:28:03
Speaker 1: both itself and the world. And there's one more distinction.
2:28:08
Speaker 1: Countries shape by foreign victory often remember through triumph. Country
2:28:12
Speaker 1: shape by internal fracture often remember through reconciliation. It's true
2:28:16
Speaker 1: of the United States, it's true of Nigeria, and in
2:28:19
Speaker 1: some ways it's even visible in countries like Spain where
2:28:22
Speaker 1: the unresolved civil conflict still complicates their national memory. So
2:28:27
Speaker 1: America's story is distinctive because Memorial Day emerges from a
2:28:30
Speaker 1: divided country trying to become one again.
2:28:35
Speaker 2: Out of many, we have one.
2:28:38
Speaker 1: Which maybe why the holiday never became purely triumphalist, never
2:28:42
Speaker 1: fully became about victory, and eventually evolved into something more civic,
2:28:45
Speaker 1: more communal, and yes, more social, and we shouldn't criticize
2:28:49
Speaker 1: ourselves for it. No, you don't say happy Memorial Day, right,
2:28:54
Speaker 1: that's a bizarre thing. But we are celebrating reuniting, coming together,
2:29:04
Speaker 1: agreeing to disagree. So embrace the fact that America increasingly
2:29:13
Speaker 1: remembers war through civic ritual parades, cemeteries, baseball cookouts, family gatherings,
2:29:20
Speaker 1: even an auto race in Indianapolis. And maybe that is
2:29:23
Speaker 1: an accidental Maybe after a civil war that nearly destroyed
2:29:26
Speaker 1: this country, being together became.
2:29:29
Speaker 2: Part of the meeting itself. So don't feel guilty enjoying
2:29:34
Speaker 2: your barbecue today, ask Chuck. All right, let's do some ass. Chuck.
2:29:47
Speaker 1: First question comes from Katrs. She said she read, appreciate
2:29:50
Speaker 1: everything you do. Love listening every week Voice of Reason
2:29:53
Speaker 1: here where I'm living in Missouri, surrounded by magna.
2:29:56
Speaker 2: Well you're kind of say that.
2:29:57
Speaker 1: Try not to pay too much attention to conspiracy theories,
2:29:59
Speaker 1: but I do find it odd at how little we
2:30:01
Speaker 1: know about the individuals who attempt to assassinate the president.
2:30:03
Speaker 1: I understand not wanting to con sensationalize it, but can
2:30:06
Speaker 1: you share some insight into why information has been so limited?
2:30:09
Speaker 2: Go Cards. Thanks, it's a very It is the strangest thing.
2:30:14
Speaker 1: About Butler in particular, right, something we all watched on
2:30:18
Speaker 1: television I didn't see in real time. I was on
2:30:21
Speaker 1: an airplane. I think I've shared my story about being
2:30:26
Speaker 1: on an airplane with no Wi Fi when literally some
2:30:30
Speaker 1: of the biggest breaking news of all time happens.
2:30:33
Speaker 2: And you know, I think you know.
2:30:36
Speaker 1: I've been trying to figure out why we because I
2:30:38
Speaker 1: share your I share your sort of I don't know
2:30:46
Speaker 1: what those call it like. It's not skepticism, but I
2:30:50
Speaker 1: share your like wonder as to why this hasn't been
2:30:55
Speaker 1: and why you know, where's the commission? Right? We had
2:30:58
Speaker 1: a whole Warren commission about Kennedy. If you have a
2:31:05
Speaker 1: memory of Reagan's the assassination attempt and Reagan, you remember
2:31:09
Speaker 1: so much about how much we learned about John Hinckley
2:31:12
Speaker 1: in his obsession with Jody Foster and all of those things.
2:31:18
Speaker 1: We probably know more about the person that tried to
2:31:21
Speaker 1: you know, in a squeaky frome, right, it was involved
2:31:23
Speaker 1: in those four the attempted assassination of Joel Ford, And
2:31:29
Speaker 1: so there's been so little. I think some of it
2:31:33
Speaker 1: is that I think, you know, I don't know. I
2:31:37
Speaker 1: think some of it is about our everything moves so
2:31:40
Speaker 1: fast now, right, we don't. We don't sit in a
2:31:43
Speaker 1: you know stories we would sit in a week. We
2:31:45
Speaker 1: now sit in for half a day and we move on.
2:31:48
Speaker 1: I mean, look at the look at the shooting at
2:31:52
Speaker 1: the mosque in San Diego about a week ago. How
2:31:55
Speaker 1: quickly that you know, showed up on your newsfeed and
2:31:58
Speaker 1: then disappeared. So I think some of it is that
2:32:02
Speaker 1: there's just we don't have any color. You know, we
2:32:04
Speaker 1: don't all consume the same news feeds. So when you
2:32:08
Speaker 1: have so many fragmented news feeds, there's no one place.
2:32:11
Speaker 1: Now if you want more on it, I guess that
2:32:13
Speaker 1: you can find a little bit more on it. But
2:32:15
Speaker 1: I think what's been a head scratcher is it feels
2:32:20
Speaker 1: as if Congress is not doesn't seem to have as
2:32:22
Speaker 1: much interest in these as previous assassination attempts, Like where
2:32:27
Speaker 1: is the Bipartisan Working Group on this? And where you know,
2:32:31
Speaker 1: but you know, we couldn't even agree in getting a
2:32:33
Speaker 1: January sixth commission in a bipartisan way. How do you
2:32:38
Speaker 1: think we're going to get this? But and I think
2:32:42
Speaker 1: the here's what we've learned. The decision not to organize
2:32:52
Speaker 1: some sort of blue ribbon panel or special investigative body
2:32:55
Speaker 1: on this probably has fed the con arracy culture more
2:33:00
Speaker 1: than it than was necessary. And so I think in
2:33:07
Speaker 1: hindsight it turned out to be you know, if you're
2:33:09
Speaker 1: trying to build rebuild trust with the with the American people,
2:33:13
Speaker 1: not doing a more public investigation on this was a mistake.
2:33:19
Speaker 1: And whether it's that one, whether it's the golf course
2:33:24
Speaker 1: assass with the one who was camping out at the
2:33:26
Speaker 1: golf course or what we you know, or the person
2:33:33
Speaker 1: currently charged with the trying to rush the White House dinner.
2:33:37
Speaker 1: There was another incident over the weekend of a of
2:33:42
Speaker 1: a shot at the White House.
2:33:44
Speaker 2: We definitely have.
2:33:45
Speaker 1: A problem here and we probably need to collectively deal
2:33:52
Speaker 1: with it right now, where unfortunately our politics are too
2:33:55
Speaker 1: mature where everybody wants blame blame pop you know, have
2:34:00
Speaker 1: on political party own this sort of increase in the
2:34:06
Speaker 1: need and use for a violence.
2:34:11
Speaker 2: So I think you're right.
2:34:13
Speaker 1: I think it's a little odd that and I think
2:34:15
Speaker 1: that I don't think there's any reasoning, any conspiratorial reasoning
2:34:19
Speaker 1: behind it. You know, there were some near misses on
2:34:25
Speaker 1: Bill Clinton that never became that you know, they became
2:34:28
Speaker 1: public like a year or two later, and then we
2:34:30
Speaker 1: didn't focus on them. The fact that they weren't successful,
2:34:34
Speaker 1: I think is also why you sort of move on quicker.
2:34:38
Speaker 1: So I think that's part of the explanation. But again,
2:34:45
Speaker 1: in particular, Butler feels feels like, I mean, I guess,
2:34:48
Speaker 1: you know, we we have and after action report, and
2:34:52
Speaker 1: it's pretty clear that was a and supposedly right. The
2:34:55
Speaker 1: Secret Service was stretched, it had too many We basically
2:34:59
Speaker 1: have too many threats against elected officials, and we don't
2:35:02
Speaker 1: have enough security to handle all.
2:35:04
Speaker 2: The threats against elected officials.
2:35:06
Speaker 1: That's the dirty little secret, and we have not fully
2:35:10
Speaker 1: and we're not dealing with the fact that, you know,
2:35:12
Speaker 1: either we have to become a massive security state or
2:35:15
Speaker 1: we have to deal with this this escalated violent streak
2:35:20
Speaker 1: that enough people have decided to embrace that it's put
2:35:25
Speaker 1: a lot of huge strain on security, on personal security
2:35:29
Speaker 1: for elected officials, So, lawmakers, if you're listening, I think
2:35:35
Speaker 1: KDR is right. I think that you probably created more
2:35:40
Speaker 1: conspiracy theories by not doing a better public investigation and
2:35:45
Speaker 1: deep dive and taking this issue of escalated violence against
2:35:49
Speaker 1: elected officials more seriously. You didn't take it seriously in
2:35:52
Speaker 1: the first Trump term when it was Democrats being targeted.
2:35:55
Speaker 1: Now Republicans want to take it seriously, but blame it
2:35:58
Speaker 1: on Democrats because they say only Republicans are being target
2:36:00
Speaker 1: is like, guys, we have a escalating violence problem in
2:36:03
Speaker 1: this country. There are folks in the left and the
2:36:05
Speaker 1: right who have embraced it.
2:36:08
Speaker 2: We need to.
2:36:08
Speaker 1: Figure out a better way to tackle this, and that
2:36:11
Speaker 1: would be a useful exercise for our elected officials if
2:36:15
Speaker 1: but again, Republicans would have to accept the premise that yes,
2:36:20
Speaker 1: Trump has created the conditions for this increase in violence,
2:36:24
Speaker 1: and Democrats would have to accept the premise that, yes,
2:36:27
Speaker 1: it is the left right now that seems to be
2:36:29
Speaker 1: embracing violence more than the right. James T and Jacksonville,
2:36:35
Speaker 1: Florida Rights. Hey, first time writing in, but I've been
2:36:37
Speaker 1: a big fan since your Meet the Press days. The
2:36:40
Speaker 1: Washington Post tracked over thirty thousand false from misleading statements
2:36:42
Speaker 1: from Donald Trump during his first presidency. I expected Democrats
2:36:45
Speaker 1: to use that more in this reelection campaigns to question
2:36:47
Speaker 1: his credibility, but I don't recall seeing it featured much
2:36:49
Speaker 1: an ad. Do you have any insight into why Democrats
2:36:52
Speaker 1: and liberal super PACs didn't lean into that more? And
2:36:54
Speaker 1: do you think it would have been effective if they had?
2:36:58
Speaker 1: So each see an occasion, only you see it more,
2:37:01
Speaker 1: you know, And I see the references to his like
2:37:04
Speaker 1: inability to tell the truth. That's usually in a congressional
2:37:07
Speaker 1: or a statewide ad that's accusing their opponents of being
2:37:12
Speaker 1: like Donald Trump, who of course can't ever tell the truth,
2:37:14
Speaker 1: you know, or something like that. So it's done as
2:37:16
Speaker 1: sort of a bank shot attack on on on Unrepublican
2:37:21
Speaker 1: opponents by Democrats.
2:37:22
Speaker 2: Book down the ballot.
2:37:24
Speaker 1: But look, I think that we you know, and this
2:37:26
Speaker 1: is the case where you know, you want to know
2:37:28
Speaker 1: why nobody believes anything anymore? You blame these the big
2:37:32
Speaker 1: tech algorithms, right, we have we have fragmented ourselves where
2:37:35
Speaker 1: people are convinced that that the other side are the
2:37:39
Speaker 1: liars and they're getting the truth, or people are convinced no, no, no,
2:37:43
Speaker 1: I read I read from.
2:37:44
Speaker 2: All sides that they don't. They just read.
2:37:47
Speaker 1: They read a either right wing version of liberal media
2:37:51
Speaker 1: or a left wing version of conservative media, meaning right.
2:37:54
Speaker 1: What what people say when they say I read the
2:37:56
Speaker 1: other side is they only read articles that people point
2:37:58
Speaker 1: out to them that confirm their own worldview, and ditto right,
2:38:01
Speaker 1: Like the left loves to embrace stuff from conservative commentators
2:38:06
Speaker 1: that endorses their worldview, and the right loves to embrace
2:38:08
Speaker 1: something in the New York Times that like endorses their
2:38:11
Speaker 1: world views, like even the New York Times, right, or
2:38:14
Speaker 1: even the Wall Street Journal, right. You get that sort
2:38:17
Speaker 1: of ridiculous social media post.
2:38:19
Speaker 2: Right.
2:38:20
Speaker 1: But the point is is that it's because we have
2:38:23
Speaker 1: no we have no shared truth. So I just I think,
2:38:27
Speaker 1: in fairness, it doesn't hit the way you think it
2:38:29
Speaker 1: hits the people already. It's it's sort of like a
2:38:32
Speaker 1: cute Trump has convinced people that, yes, of course he lies,
2:38:36
Speaker 1: but all politicians are liars. I'm just honest about my line,
2:38:40
Speaker 1: And I think that that's where this is why it's
2:38:44
Speaker 1: just not.
2:38:45
Speaker 2: Used, because it's just not that effective. But here's the thing.
2:38:50
Speaker 1: It's not effective until it isn't like it's baked in
2:38:52
Speaker 1: with Trump. Right, if you look at the polling, right,
2:38:56
Speaker 1: a majority already think that he's not honest and trustworth.
2:38:58
Speaker 1: It was like fifty eight percent when you ask this question,
2:39:00
Speaker 1: is he honest and trustworthy? And he's not. So I
2:39:06
Speaker 1: don't know if you need to let people know. I
2:39:08
Speaker 1: think what happens is is that this is one of
2:39:12
Speaker 1: those things where I think voters care about it eventually,
2:39:19
Speaker 1: and eventually, when they finally make the decision that I'm
2:39:22
Speaker 1: out on Trump, it'll be like, you know, the guy
2:39:24
Speaker 1: lies all the time. You see it, like when people
2:39:26
Speaker 1: finally sort of either feel comfortable saying it publicly, opacity,
2:39:31
Speaker 1: people like that. You know, they come around and they'll
2:39:34
Speaker 1: say it right, it's sort of accepted. I mean, if
2:39:37
Speaker 1: you ask a Trump supporter, how often does he Trump? Think, oh, yeah,
2:39:40
Speaker 1: I know he exaggerates, but he's selling something or he's
2:39:43
Speaker 1: just trying to push back on the lives of the
2:39:45
Speaker 1: mainstream media.
2:39:46
Speaker 2: Right.
2:39:47
Speaker 1: You know, there's always this rationale or explanation for it.
2:39:50
Speaker 1: But I think you know when you have sort of
2:39:53
Speaker 1: a that that is your information world, that it's so fragmented.
2:40:00
Speaker 1: I think that's why there's not a coherent ability to
2:40:03
Speaker 1: move message on it, and I don't know if it
2:40:06
Speaker 1: moves anything, because the problem is it's not that the
2:40:09
Speaker 1: public isn't convinced that Donald Trump's a liar, but the
2:40:12
Speaker 1: public is not convinced some other Democrats are truth tellers,
2:40:16
Speaker 1: and that may also explain why it's not as effective.
2:40:20
Speaker 1: So the Democrats need to improve their own brand before
2:40:22
Speaker 1: they can use the problems of the other party's brand
2:40:27
Speaker 1: as effectively. Next question comes from Dean from I'm gonna
2:40:33
Speaker 1: guess this is Long Island. It just says l I,
2:40:35
Speaker 1: So I'm gonna say that. I'm gonna Dean, I'm gonna
2:40:37
Speaker 1: accuse you of being from Long Island. Maybe maybe that's
2:40:40
Speaker 1: not an accusation, Maybe that's a celebration. Anyway, he goes,
2:40:44
Speaker 1: I've noticed John Osoff using the term Epstein class, and
2:40:46
Speaker 1: it feels more effective than phrases like the one percent
2:40:49
Speaker 1: or the billionaire class. Creates clear image of a small,
2:40:53
Speaker 1: ultra wealthy group acting above the law. What do you
2:40:55
Speaker 1: think about adopting that kind of framing more broadly, especially
2:40:58
Speaker 1: tied to policy ideas like an Epstein tag through higher
2:41:00
Speaker 1: capital gains thresholds or state changes. Thanks Dean, I think
2:41:05
Speaker 1: it's very effective. I think it's immediately it is because
2:41:10
Speaker 1: of what you said. It's the second part of what
2:41:12
Speaker 1: you said. It creates a clear image of a small,
2:41:15
Speaker 1: ultra wealthy group acting above the law. Let me repeat it,
2:41:19
Speaker 1: a small ultra wealthy group acting above the law. That's
2:41:23
Speaker 1: why this is so effective. This is something that left
2:41:26
Speaker 1: and right can agree on. They think that essentially the
2:41:28
Speaker 1: elite conspire to screw them, right, elite, Wall Street, elite, government, elite, science, elite, you.
2:41:37
Speaker 2: Know, whatever you want to say. Right, That's where there is.
2:41:40
Speaker 1: Some shared there is some shared belief here in it.
2:41:48
Speaker 2: I think it is. It's put it this way.
2:41:52
Speaker 1: You know why it's effective because it makes you know.
2:41:55
Speaker 1: It's sort of like if the pig is squealing, then
2:41:59
Speaker 1: you're onto something. Donald Trump can't he squeals any He's
2:42:04
Speaker 1: paranoid on Epstein.
2:42:05
Speaker 2: Right.
2:42:05
Speaker 1: Epstein is what triggered the Massy thing. It's not Massy's
2:42:09
Speaker 1: stance on Israel that got other people involved in that race.
2:42:13
Speaker 1: Trump got involved over Epstein, Right, And I go back,
2:42:18
Speaker 1: you know where I stand on Epstein. I'm like, you know,
2:42:21
Speaker 1: I think he's paranoid of what Dlaine Maxwell knows about
2:42:26
Speaker 1: his life in the late nineties early odds, right, and
2:42:31
Speaker 1: his relationships and all of those things. Right, I think
2:42:34
Speaker 1: he's scared more of that than anything else.
2:42:37
Speaker 2: My gosh.
2:42:37
Speaker 1: I mean he remember, Donald Trump does not high he's
2:42:40
Speaker 1: not a poker player. He never hides what he's thinking.
2:42:44
Speaker 1: He shows it to you, he tells you, right. So
2:42:47
Speaker 1: it certainly makes Trump squeal, It makes a lot of
2:42:50
Speaker 1: people uncomfortable.
2:42:52
Speaker 2: I think it's quite effective. I really do.
2:42:55
Speaker 1: And I look, I've not been a I've I've been
2:42:58
Speaker 1: a skeptic of whether Epstein had sort of this set
2:43:01
Speaker 1: of set of legs with sort of average swing voters.
2:43:05
Speaker 1: It really seems to have. I've underestimated the power of
2:43:08
Speaker 1: that story. And it is really one of those that
2:43:12
Speaker 1: has just cuts across very few stories outside of like
2:43:17
Speaker 1: consumer sentiment and you know, cost of living can cut
2:43:20
Speaker 1: across both parties this way, and this one does.
2:43:23
Speaker 2: So I think it's absolutely incredibly effective. So I'd probably
2:43:29
Speaker 2: be a little subtler.
2:43:30
Speaker 1: On the Epstein tax. You know, maybe maybe you uh,
2:43:38
Speaker 1: maybe you have the eventual bill you know that that
2:43:43
Speaker 1: you know that is an acronym for Epstein, that you know,
2:43:47
Speaker 1: eliminating you know, profitable sheltering taxes. Everywhere investments.
2:43:59
Speaker 2: I don't know, I'm trying to.
2:44:04
Speaker 1: Investments. I got to come up with with N there right,
2:44:10
Speaker 1: but anyway I might, But I see where you're going.
2:44:12
Speaker 1: I think you can have some fun with that a
2:44:14
Speaker 1: little bit. But Epstein class feels like something you can
2:44:20
Speaker 1: just use without saying anything other than that you don't
2:44:23
Speaker 1: have to explain what you're trying to say. I think
2:44:25
Speaker 1: it's an if you know, you know so I think
2:44:28
Speaker 1: it could be highly effective. Next question comes from I
2:44:34
Speaker 1: got a long explainer here from where you're from. It's
2:44:38
Speaker 1: Ricks formally from Swarthmore, Pennsylvania, but recently retired and Recloth
2:44:42
Speaker 1: relocated to rock Hall on Maryland's Eastern Shore, Maryland Eastern Shore.
2:44:46
Speaker 1: I mean you're waking up to a nice view this morning.
2:44:49
Speaker 1: I hope he goes to enjoy podcast. Appreciated your recent
2:44:51
Speaker 1: comments with Lamar Alexander and the decline of civics education.
2:44:55
Speaker 1: As a former twelve year school board member in southeast Pennsylvania,
2:44:58
Speaker 1: I've come to believe no child left beh contributed by
2:45:01
Speaker 1: prioritizing tested subjects and pulling stronger teachers away from Civics
2:45:04
Speaker 1: and social studies. Curious how that lines up with your experience,
2:45:07
Speaker 1: both with your own kids and what you've heard from guests. Sincerely,
2:45:11
Speaker 1: Rick asked, boy, that is that is the most concise
2:45:16
Speaker 1: insight I've seen yet explaining sort of how the unintended
2:45:21
Speaker 1: consequences of no child left behind and the focus on testing,
2:45:26
Speaker 1: this wasn't just about teaching to the test. It was
2:45:28
Speaker 1: pulling teachers away from because you're right, like I think
2:45:31
Speaker 1: about in high school, right, and you ask anybody who
2:45:35
Speaker 1: got into politics and you know, got into political science
2:45:38
Speaker 1: at an early age, and they'll tell you they had
2:45:39
Speaker 1: that government teacher, right, that government I had that government teacher.
2:45:42
Speaker 2: We all have.
2:45:43
Speaker 1: We had that government teacher who sort of really brought
2:45:45
Speaker 1: civics to life. And if you were already inclined, and
2:45:49
Speaker 1: I already had been inclined, I had it in my house.
2:45:51
Speaker 1: My dad was very much sort of focused, you know,
2:45:54
Speaker 1: sort of always had me thinking about politics and civics,
2:45:58
Speaker 1: you know, at an earlier age than and certainly I
2:46:01
Speaker 1: then even I did with my kids, even though it
2:46:03
Speaker 1: sort of biosmosis, right, they've sort.
2:46:05
Speaker 2: Of picked it up.
2:46:10
Speaker 1: That I had not thought of it as it pulling
2:46:14
Speaker 1: strong teachers away from civics and social studies. But the
2:46:17
Speaker 1: minute you say, you're like, well, of course it did.
2:46:21
Speaker 1: And so this was you know, you know, we were
2:46:24
Speaker 1: so focused on reading, writing, and math and that we
2:46:27
Speaker 1: have we right, we don't test for history, We don't
2:46:30
Speaker 1: test for civics.
2:46:31
Speaker 2: We don't you know, if we.
2:46:33
Speaker 1: Want our education system to prioritize a better, better teaching
2:46:37
Speaker 1: of civics, then we would make that much more of
2:46:40
Speaker 1: a requirement to get out of high school and to
2:46:42
Speaker 1: get into college. So it is on us, right, it
2:46:48
Speaker 1: is on you you at school boards, you know what
2:46:52
Speaker 1: you did. It is on the sort of this collective
2:46:55
Speaker 1: decision by you know, how to do you know, how
2:46:58
Speaker 1: much emphasis are we going to put on civics in
2:46:59
Speaker 1: our public education? And we lament it, but we don't
2:47:03
Speaker 1: seem to actually prioritize it.
2:47:06
Speaker 2: Now.
2:47:06
Speaker 1: Part of it is we're actually fighting over how do
2:47:08
Speaker 1: you teach it?
2:47:12
Speaker 2: You know, and.
2:47:15
Speaker 1: You know, I'd like to think you can teach the
2:47:17
Speaker 1: facts even if it's uncomfortable. But you know, it was
2:47:21
Speaker 1: interesting when I was putting together some ideas for you know,
2:47:25
Speaker 1: when I think about teaching our history, Like one of
2:47:28
Speaker 1: the items I thought about doing for today's time machine
2:47:33
Speaker 1: was the Indian Removal Act, which was signed into law
2:47:35
Speaker 1: May twenty eight, eighteen thirty. How you teach that the
2:47:42
Speaker 1: point of view that you teach that, right, I think
2:47:44
Speaker 1: you can just teach the facts, right, that we were
2:47:46
Speaker 1: essentially coercing tribes in the Southern States to move west, which,
2:47:54
Speaker 1: of course then we would eventually keep trying to remove
2:47:56
Speaker 1: them and remove them and remove them. And so that is,
2:48:00
Speaker 1: you know, that's not the finest moment of the American government,
2:48:05
Speaker 1: and yet manifest destiny is you know, there's American exceptions.
2:48:09
Speaker 1: You know, that's one of those where you're just going
2:48:11
Speaker 1: to have a fight amongst administrators and how you teach it.
2:48:16
Speaker 1: And so my great fear is that one of the
2:48:18
Speaker 1: reasons we've punted a little bit of our demands on
2:48:21
Speaker 1: history and civics is that we're fearful of even how
2:48:25
Speaker 1: to teach it. We got to teach the facts. This
2:48:28
Speaker 1: is what we did. You know, It's also why we've
2:48:33
Speaker 1: given the benefits we give to Native Americans to this
2:48:36
Speaker 1: day because of essentially how badly early American governments treated
2:48:41
Speaker 1: Native Americans in this country. We've essentially been trying to
2:48:45
Speaker 1: pay reparations ever since.
2:48:48
Speaker 2: So it is.
2:48:51
Speaker 1: I wonder how much it is those issues too right,
2:48:54
Speaker 1: the inability to agree on how we teach these things
2:48:58
Speaker 1: that has ended up where we've collectively punted even doing
2:49:02
Speaker 1: it right. I think we don't teach the history of
2:49:06
Speaker 1: religion very well, and I think we should, and I
2:49:08
Speaker 1: think you can teach it from a non religious point
2:49:10
Speaker 1: of view, but we're so fearful of what that would
2:49:13
Speaker 1: look like, and people care so much that well, my
2:49:16
Speaker 1: religion going to be painted in a good light or
2:49:18
Speaker 1: a bad light, that we end up not doing it
2:49:22
Speaker 1: at all, and then so we become more ignorant generally.
2:49:26
Speaker 1: But the insight that I take the most away from
2:49:31
Speaker 1: you on this is this idea that teaching to the tests,
2:49:36
Speaker 1: prioritizing what schools are going to be judged on by
2:49:41
Speaker 1: the tests ended up the unintended consequence. We pulled the
2:49:45
Speaker 1: best teachers away from Civics and social studies because those
2:49:48
Speaker 1: weren't going to decide school funding. And so if you
2:49:53
Speaker 1: want that better, we've got to make it more of
2:49:55
Speaker 1: a priority.
2:49:57
Speaker 2: All right.
2:49:58
Speaker 1: Last question from Brent in Phoenix, Arizona. Anyways, Hey, love
2:50:05
Speaker 1: your work, going back to your National Journal days. Really
2:50:09
Speaker 1: appreciate the podcast, how it pushes deeper. Thinking about today's discourse,
2:50:12
Speaker 1: I wanted to ask about the soul called swing states.
2:50:14
Speaker 1: Over the last three presidential elections, the national vote is
2:50:16
Speaker 1: only shifted by about two point five points or less.
2:50:19
Speaker 1: Doesn't that suggest the vast majority of voters are already
2:50:21
Speaker 1: locked in and that turnout strategies maybe more effective than
2:50:24
Speaker 1: appealing to a shrinking swing block or are there other
2:50:27
Speaker 1: factors at play? Thanks for taking my question, PUS. Which
2:50:29
Speaker 1: NHL team do you claim? Caps, Panthers, Rest in Peace,
2:50:32
Speaker 1: Arizona Coyotes. Yeah, I bandwagon the Caps. If you're asking,
2:50:39
Speaker 1: it was fun to watch them win a Stanley Cup.
2:50:41
Speaker 1: I've gone to more Caps hockey games than any other
2:50:44
Speaker 1: franchise being here. And like every other casual hockey fan,
2:50:52
Speaker 1: once you go to a game, you become a hockey fan.
2:50:54
Speaker 2: You're like, oh no, what, I get it? Now? Right?
2:50:56
Speaker 2: It is?
2:50:57
Speaker 1: You know, it's fine to watch on TV. I don't
2:51:00
Speaker 1: complain about watching on TV the way others do. I
2:51:01
Speaker 1: think it's fine to watch on TV, but you know,
2:51:07
Speaker 1: it's always you know, when I didn't grow up with it,
2:51:10
Speaker 1: and in Miami, the only hockey highlights we got back
2:51:12
Speaker 1: in the seventies and eighties were the fights you never
2:51:15
Speaker 1: you know, And I left Miami didn't get a hockey
2:51:17
Speaker 1: tintil well after i'd moved, and it really wasn't here
2:51:20
Speaker 1: until I sort of appreciated hockey in a more mainstream way.
2:51:24
Speaker 1: Like I said, it got treated like a freak showdown
2:51:26
Speaker 1: and you know, when I was growing up, you'd only
2:51:29
Speaker 1: see the fights, which was part of it's both charm
2:51:32
Speaker 1: and it's I think why it had a hard time
2:51:35
Speaker 1: embedding itself in more and more communities. Oh and the
2:51:38
Speaker 1: fact that we had no ice rinks anywhere, and we
2:51:40
Speaker 1: still have very few ice rinks in South Florida, but
2:51:42
Speaker 1: there's a few more than there used to be, and
2:51:45
Speaker 1: enough snowbirds have shown up.
2:51:46
Speaker 2: Now that you know, there's certainly plenty of hockey fans
2:51:48
Speaker 2: out there.
2:51:49
Speaker 1: So but yeah, I jump on that Caps.
2:51:51
Speaker 2: Bandwagon whenever I can.
2:51:54
Speaker 1: I did get into the first Panthers team that made
2:51:57
Speaker 1: it to a Stanley Cup with the Rats. I mean,
2:51:59
Speaker 1: that was a great story that they that you know,
2:52:02
Speaker 1: what started as sort of like one guy I think
2:52:04
Speaker 1: killed a rat by slapshotting a rat that was sort
2:52:08
Speaker 1: of in their locker room, and then it became a
2:52:11
Speaker 1: thing and you know, instead of hats, they threw rubber
2:52:15
Speaker 1: rats under the ice. I mean, that was a fun moment.
2:52:16
Speaker 1: So I jumped on that Panthers bandwagon that season. I
2:52:20
Speaker 1: think even bought a sweater Panther sweater. By the way,
2:52:26
Speaker 1: here's what I feel for for hockey fans. You guys
2:52:28
Speaker 1: get gouged like crazy by franchises and all this stuff.
2:52:32
Speaker 1: You know, they know hockey fans are so devoted they'll
2:52:34
Speaker 1: pay any price, but literally, they charge any It seems
2:52:37
Speaker 1: like they charge absurd prices for any hockey perfernalia, hockey tickets,
2:52:41
Speaker 1: any of those things. But I digress. Your more important
2:52:45
Speaker 1: question had to do with swing voters. Well, here's the thing.
2:52:49
Speaker 1: What you've described is what the two parties do do,
2:52:51
Speaker 1: which is they do moneyballless. Right, they look at it, Okay,
2:52:55
Speaker 1: we're going to concentrate our resources on these southern states,
2:52:58
Speaker 1: and this is what it is. And well, you never
2:53:02
Speaker 1: grow your party that way, and you never put yourself
2:53:05
Speaker 1: in a position where you might get sixty percent approval
2:53:07
Speaker 1: for your policies even if you're only getting fifty percent
2:53:09
Speaker 1: plus one for your election victories. And I think that
2:53:14
Speaker 1: this is why we've become so polarized, and that we
2:53:16
Speaker 1: are both parties try to take the shortcut fifty percent
2:53:20
Speaker 1: plus one, rather than realize if you're in a polarized state,
2:53:24
Speaker 1: it means you haven't you haven't solved the reddle yet,
2:53:27
Speaker 1: and you probably need to go back. And this, like
2:53:31
Speaker 1: I said, it gets back to something. I've quoted Tommy
2:53:34
Speaker 1: Thompson about polarization in Wisconsin, and I said, why don't
2:53:38
Speaker 1: either party try to do something about it? He says,
2:53:40
Speaker 1: because if you don't lose by more than a half
2:53:42
Speaker 1: a point or a point, you don't think you have
2:53:44
Speaker 1: to make wholesale changes. You just tweak around the edges.
2:53:47
Speaker 1: You just think, one more phone call, one more door knock,
2:53:50
Speaker 1: you know, one more advertisement, and you know you'd have
2:53:53
Speaker 1: gotten the fifty one percent that you needed to.
2:53:55
Speaker 2: Get your majority, et cetera.
2:53:58
Speaker 1: But I think it's why we're stuck and why we
2:54:01
Speaker 1: don't why we're not getting any governing done, and why
2:54:04
Speaker 1: sixty percent ideas can't get governed, can't get instituted, And
2:54:08
Speaker 1: it's because of this sort of decision to treat I
2:54:12
Speaker 1: do believe that if you treat voters as swing voters,
2:54:17
Speaker 1: even those that have never been swing voters. If you
2:54:20
Speaker 1: treat them like their voter is up for grabs and
2:54:22
Speaker 1: that you want it you've never asked for it before,
2:54:25
Speaker 1: over time you will create swing voters. And my proof
2:54:28
Speaker 1: of concept on this are the states of Iowa and
2:54:30
Speaker 1: New Hampshire. Demographically, neither state looks like it should be
2:54:33
Speaker 1: a swing state, and yet over time both of them
2:54:36
Speaker 1: became swing states for much of the twenty first century
2:54:40
Speaker 1: as much because of the presidential candidates treating every voter
2:54:44
Speaker 1: like swing voters, and then over time they got it right. Demographically,
2:54:48
Speaker 1: I was no business being a swing voting state, right.
2:54:51
Speaker 1: It definitely doesn't have any of the features that just
2:54:54
Speaker 1: about every other swing state has, you know, a balance
2:54:57
Speaker 1: of urban and rural and you know, growing ex urban
2:55:00
Speaker 1: maybe a demographic group here, dem h And yet for
2:55:04
Speaker 1: a long time they behave to swing voters, and I
2:55:05
Speaker 1: think they're going to behave as swing voters again. You know,
2:55:10
Speaker 1: I am Pollyannish enough to believe any state has a
2:55:13
Speaker 1: set of swing voters if you choose to find them,
2:55:16
Speaker 1: and there's a fulcrum in every state now. Some folkrums
2:55:19
Speaker 1: are light red to dark red or light blue to
2:55:22
Speaker 1: dark blue, and some folk CRuMs truly are purple between
2:55:25
Speaker 1: the red and the blue. But I think only trying
2:55:31
Speaker 1: to moneyball and finding the you know, accepting the premise
2:55:36
Speaker 1: that this is that we're hopelessly divided, and let's just
2:55:39
Speaker 1: find that, go after that small swing of voters that
2:55:42
Speaker 1: moves back and forth, and concentrate on that, you know,
2:55:46
Speaker 1: and try to enhance, you know, improve your base, turnout
2:55:49
Speaker 1: just enough where you need even fewer of those. You
2:55:52
Speaker 1: don't end up, you know, those those presidential victories don't
2:55:56
Speaker 1: let you govern. You get a big you get a
2:56:00
Speaker 1: better governing majority. So I think that that's I think
2:56:04
Speaker 1: just you know, treating it this way is what's taken
2:56:08
Speaker 1: us down this road, which is why I want to
2:56:10
Speaker 1: see a third party sort of upend this. If you
2:56:13
Speaker 1: upend it a little bit and you get a competitive
2:56:14
Speaker 1: third party or independent candidate in the presidential race, you
2:56:17
Speaker 1: put you make more voters feel as if they have
2:56:20
Speaker 1: skin in the game and that their vote is up
2:56:22
Speaker 1: for grabs. And the more votes you have up for grabs,
2:56:25
Speaker 1: the more you may have a more of an electorate
2:56:29
Speaker 1: that's that's willing to suddenly rally around one thing, you know,
2:56:34
Speaker 1: come up, come to this conclusion, you know, and and
2:56:36
Speaker 1: would open up the electorate to to candidates that maybe
2:56:40
Speaker 1: had haven't tried to appeal to certain voters in a while.
2:56:44
Speaker 1: So I just you know, this is what's wrong with
2:56:47
Speaker 1: our politics. How what you outline? What your outline is correct?
2:56:50
Speaker 2: Right?
2:56:50
Speaker 1: And it certainly is how And I think you know,
2:56:53
Speaker 1: we talked about the DNC autopsy. You know, everything has
2:56:56
Speaker 1: always been about the seven swing states, and they don't
2:56:58
Speaker 1: care about anything else. You know, you should care about
2:57:02
Speaker 1: your swing states. You should figure out how to put
2:57:04
Speaker 1: three to four other states in play, and you should
2:57:06
Speaker 1: figure out how to how to solidify your base states. Right,
2:57:12
Speaker 1: if every party thought and thought about it that way,
2:57:15
Speaker 1: you'd probably end up you know, and you know, in
2:57:19
Speaker 1: the early ox and then even in the nineties, you know,
2:57:21
Speaker 1: are you know, it was closer, you know, ten to
2:57:26
Speaker 1: fifteen states. We're in the swing state category. We're down
2:57:28
Speaker 1: to seven, maybe with an eighth that may sneak in
2:57:32
Speaker 1: there in Minnesota maybe, and maybe with a ninth that
2:57:36
Speaker 1: could sneak in there with in the midterms.
2:57:38
Speaker 2: Maybe Ohio, maybe Iowa. Right, but we shall see.
2:57:42
Speaker 1: So I think that if you treat the voters as
2:57:48
Speaker 1: locked in they'll stay locked in.
2:57:50
Speaker 2: That's another thing.
2:57:51
Speaker 1: But if you treat voters that they're not locked in,
2:57:54
Speaker 1: you can peel some away, not a lot, but just
2:57:57
Speaker 1: enough to change the change the calculus, and ultimately a
2:58:01
Speaker 1: smart political party focuses on that.
2:58:05
Speaker 2: How were that?
2:58:08
Speaker 1: Hopefully this, hopefully you've enjoyed your holliday. We can have
2:58:13
Speaker 1: to say, man, I just I'm now starting to get
2:58:16
Speaker 1: frustrated that the Nats can't can't close out games after
2:58:20
Speaker 1: leading in the eighth or ninth inning. If they weren't
2:58:26
Speaker 1: last essentially with the worst bullpen and the worst fielding
2:58:30
Speaker 1: percentage in the league being only one game behold of
2:58:33
Speaker 1: five hundred, I mean, this is a team that should
2:58:35
Speaker 1: be in first place based on their offensive performance. It's
2:58:40
Speaker 1: the last thing I expected from this team. Eight baseball Great, Yeah,
2:58:47
Speaker 1: I'll see it forty eight hours