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SAVANNAH GUTHRIE MOM MISSING: DAY 32 · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

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  Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, Savannah Guthrie's mother, Nancy Guthrie,
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  Speaker 1: Missing day thirty two Tonight the very latest in the
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  Speaker 1: search for missus Guthrie. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories.
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  Speaker 1: I want to thank you for being with us. We
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  Speaker 1: still believe an America Nancy Guthrie was forced out of
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  Speaker 1: her own bed.
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  Speaker 2: Eighty four years old, and you're pulled out of bed.
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  Speaker 1: Forty one minutes in the home.
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  Speaker 3: Every single contact needs a Tracy Fibers fingerprints DNA.
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  Speaker 4: You don't see any blood pools. That gives me hope
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  Speaker 4: that this person is alive.
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  Speaker 3: This criminal did mess up somewhere and they will be caught.
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  Speaker 1: We still believe that she.
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  Speaker 5: Can come home.
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  Speaker 1: Have you been able to identify the car that drove
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  Speaker 1: past at two thirty six am? No, but you are
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  Speaker 1: looking to identify it.
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  Speaker 4: We're looking at that as well as hundreds of thousands
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  Speaker 4: of other vehicles that we're out driving that time of day.
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  Speaker 1: Is this really something we should be looking at? Look?
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  Speaker 4: What I would tell you is this we're aware of
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  Speaker 4: it and we're looking into it just like any other
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  Speaker 4: piece of evidence.
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  Speaker 6: This is Sheriff Nanos from our friends at the Today.
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  Speaker 1: Show Straight Out to Crime Stories investigator Dave Matt Dave,
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  Speaker 1: what happened Nancy.
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  Speaker 2: There are a number of things that have really transpired
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  Speaker 2: in the last twenty four hours or so about the
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  Speaker 2: case in general. Former FBI investigator has come out and
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  Speaker 2: said this case is nowhere close to cold. It's a
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  Speaker 2: red hot case. She actually explains Jennifer Coffendeffer explains how
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  Speaker 2: there are so many things happening with the case right now.
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  Speaker 2: Some people have looked at the move from Tucson to
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  Speaker 2: Phoenix by the FBI as a negative as the case
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  Speaker 2: is cooling off, and it's actually the opposite. There is
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  Speaker 2: so much video evidence that has to be called through.
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  Speaker 2: We're talking five ten thousand pieces of video that have
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  Speaker 2: to be gone through at this point. There are there's
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  Speaker 2: still DNA you know, that has to be collected. Even
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  Speaker 2: there's a lot going on in this case. It is
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  Speaker 2: nothing close to a cold case. Now there are some
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  Speaker 2: other things happening too. We've got the vehicle that has
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  Speaker 2: been filmed on the ring camera at two thirty six am,
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  Speaker 2: eight minutes after it is believed that Nancy Guthrie was
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  Speaker 2: taken from her home. Now, at first the FBI said, no,
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  Speaker 2: that has nothing to do with the case. A couple
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  Speaker 2: of days later, Yeah, it has everything to do with
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  Speaker 2: the case. Now investigators are trying to identify what type
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  Speaker 2: of car it is, and they're really digging in. There's
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  Speaker 2: a lot of information they've found, such as the car
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  Speaker 2: has a sloped back, it has odd rear brake lights,
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  Speaker 2: and things like that.
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  Speaker 6: So that case, that.
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  Speaker 2: Part of the case than rather, is really being looked
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  Speaker 2: at in a big way by investigators.
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  Speaker 7: The backpack.
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  Speaker 2: You know, we've talked about the backpack scene on the
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  Speaker 2: video on the front porch at length. We know that
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  Speaker 2: the backpack is sold exclusively brand new at Walmart, and
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  Speaker 2: the backpack does appear to be a relatively new backpack,
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  Speaker 2: the backpack scene on the alleged kidnapper suspected kidnapper.
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  Speaker 6: Nanos Sheriff Nanos was.
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  Speaker 2: Going on a tear about this the other day, talking
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  Speaker 2: about how backpack might not have been sold at Walmart.
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  Speaker 2: You know, the backpack could have been bought by somebody
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  Speaker 2: who then sold it on eBay. I mean, which, yeah,
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  Speaker 2: that's a possibility.
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  Speaker 6: It could have been bought anywhere.
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  Speaker 2: But still we are looking at items such as the
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  Speaker 2: backpack as well as if you remember, remember the holster
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  Speaker 2: that's hanging down just below the waistline. We know that
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  Speaker 2: that particular holster only sold at Walmart. That backpack those
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  Speaker 2: are backpack exclusively sold brand new at Walmart, So there
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  Speaker 2: are some links there, but Nanos wanted to point out
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  Speaker 2: not necessarily where it might have come from.
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  Speaker 6: But you know, Sheriff.
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  Speaker 2: Nanos did say he believes he believes we're very close
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  Speaker 2: to finding the suspect in this case. And finally Annie
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  Speaker 2: Guthrie's car. Looks like law enforcement will be returning Annie
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  Speaker 2: Guthries's car to her in the next few days.
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  Speaker 1: Susannah Ryan joining US LAB director, forensic DNA analyst at
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  Speaker 1: Pure Gold Forensics, and forensic DNA consultant at Ryan Forensics.
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  Speaker 1: Susanna Ryan, what do you make of that?
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  Speaker 6: Right?
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  Speaker 8: Well, I can't say exactly why they've held it so long,
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  Speaker 8: but certainly any vehicle they get, they're going to be
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  Speaker 8: looking for lots of different forensic evidence, and you know
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  Speaker 8: that could be latent, Prince, it could be trace evidence,
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  Speaker 8: could be DNA, but as you said, of course, with
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  Speaker 8: this particular vehicle, it would not be surprising at all.
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  Speaker 8: Of course, see Nancy Guthrie's DNA.
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  Speaker 1: In the vehicle.
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  Speaker 8: We know that she has ridden in the vehicle. This
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  Speaker 8: is her relative, her relatives vehicle, so it would not
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  Speaker 8: be surprising to see her DNA pretty much anywhere in
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  Speaker 8: that car. What might be surprising is if we start
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  Speaker 8: seeing blood. If there's blood maybe in the back seat
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  Speaker 8: of the vehicle, if there's blood in the trunk of
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  Speaker 8: the vehicle, if there's blood that has been transferred somehow
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  Speaker 8: to let's say the driver's side floor mat, or the
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  Speaker 8: gas pedal or the brake pedal somewhere, that it's a
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  Speaker 8: lot more difficult to explain why someone's blood or DNA
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  Speaker 8: might be present. So I think that that's probably one
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  Speaker 8: of the things they were looking for. Again, I'm sure
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  Speaker 8: there's other digital forensic type of evidence and trace evidence
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  Speaker 8: things like that, but it does sound like at this
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  Speaker 8: point they've completed that testing.
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  Speaker 1: Susanna, A lot is being made of DNA tonight. What
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  Speaker 1: do you make of it? And where do we stand
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  Speaker 1: right now?
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  Speaker 8: You know, it would not be surprising to me at
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  Speaker 8: all that there are multiple contributors to some of these
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  Speaker 8: samples collected from the home. Right, So we're talking now
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  Speaker 8: about skin cell DNA often called touch DNA, so DNA
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  Speaker 8: that is transferred just by someone coming into contact with
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  Speaker 8: an item of evidence. Just because one person has touched
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  Speaker 8: it doesn't mean that multiple other people have not touched
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  Speaker 8: the same item. You know, if we're talking about a
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  Speaker 8: doorknob something like that, where anyone who touches that has
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  Speaker 8: the chance of transferring not only their own DNA but
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  Speaker 8: whatever else happened to be on their hands at the time.
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  Speaker 8: We're constantly picking up DNA everything that we come into
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  Speaker 8: contact with, we have the chance of picking up other
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  Speaker 8: people's DNA from those contacts, and then we can further
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  Speaker 8: transfer that DNA. So a lot of times when we
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  Speaker 8: talk about these sort of transfer or touch DNA samples,
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  Speaker 8: we're talking about multiple individuals. And the thing is, there's
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  Speaker 8: no way to separate those different components of DNA prior
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  Speaker 8: to going through the analysis process, right, we can't.
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  Speaker 1: I wish we could.
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  Speaker 8: I wish we could like target and say, okay, we
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  Speaker 8: just want this person's DNA. We're only looking for the
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  Speaker 8: male DNA or you know, something like that, and we
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  Speaker 8: really can't. Short of you know, if we have a
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  Speaker 8: sexual assault case, you can separate out sperm cell versus
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  Speaker 8: epithelia cell DNA, but otherwise you can't whatever is on
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  Speaker 8: that sample when you start the analysis process and you
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  Speaker 8: break open all of the cells and then you just
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  Speaker 8: kind of have this you know, alphabet soup of DNA
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  Speaker 8: that is present, and then you move forward with it.
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  Speaker 8: You get a DNA profile, and whether it's a mixture,
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  Speaker 8: whether it's single source, great, but usually it's a mixture two, three, four,
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  Speaker 8: maybe even more people. And so at that point it
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  Speaker 8: becomes you know, there's no way to isolate out one
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  Speaker 8: person's DNA unless they're a clear major contributor. There's more
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  Speaker 8: of one person's DNA to anybody else's. But otherwise that's
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  Speaker 8: why mixtures are so difficult, and that's why they're having
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  Speaker 8: difficulties in this case because they're probably low level, maybe
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  Speaker 8: not even complete profiles with multiple contributors. That's basically the
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  Speaker 8: worst type of sample to try to work with.
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  Speaker 1: Where is Nancy Guthrie, Savannah Guthrie's mother still missing and
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  Speaker 1: the scene is shambolic. A pizza guy, a pizza guy
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  Speaker 1: drives right up to the house the crime scene and
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  Speaker 1: goes up to the door to deliver pizza in the
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  Speaker 1: midst of this investigation, why is it still not blocked off?
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  Speaker 1: If and when this case ever does go to trial,
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  Speaker 1: there's going to be hell to pay h e double
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  Speaker 1: l hell to pay on ice skates. Because you've got
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  Speaker 1: a pool cleaning team coming through, you have pizza delivery.
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  Speaker 1: You've got people sneaking up to the front porch taking
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  Speaker 1: pictures of Nancy Guthrie's blood. For peep's sake, I would
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  Speaker 1: flip if someone was taking pictures of my mom's blood
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  Speaker 1: on the front porch. You've got the first team coming in. Failing,
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  Speaker 1: you've got the FBI finally joining in after being blocked
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  Speaker 1: by nanos, they come in. You know what this means, evidentiarily,
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  Speaker 1: is that every single person that went into that scene
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  Speaker 1: is going to have to be ruled out of DNA.
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  Speaker 1: Straight to Dave Mac joining us Crime Stories investigative reporter
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  Speaker 1: Dave Mac, who is getting swabbed.
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  Speaker 2: You know Nancy, We know that missus Guthrie has a
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  Speaker 2: lot of help around the house because she is living
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  Speaker 2: on her own. She is mentally very you know, she's
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  Speaker 2: perfect there. But I'm going to assume, based on an
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  Speaker 2: eighty four year old woman living on her own with
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  Speaker 2: physical medical issues that there is help coming by to
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  Speaker 2: check on her. One thing. We do know she has
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  Speaker 2: a pool person that takes care of the swimming pool.
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  Speaker 6: We do know she.
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  Speaker 2: Has landscape yuarding yard people who do the gardening and
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  Speaker 2: keep it trimmed up. We also know she has a
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  Speaker 2: housekeeper that comes by and cleans inside the house. So
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  Speaker 2: all of those people are considered just outside the inner circle. Esemployees,
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  Speaker 2: people who show up every week on a regular basis
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  Speaker 2: and know that house and know all the inner workings
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  Speaker 2: of the house.
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  Speaker 1: We're getting to the DNA found in her home. We
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  Speaker 1: do know it is Nancy Guthrie's DNA.
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  Speaker 7: However, it's her home, of course.
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  Speaker 1: Her DNA is there. That DNA significant because it leads
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  Speaker 1: law enforcement to state that she has been abducted. When asked,
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  Speaker 1: is abducted to strong over a word to use, The
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  Speaker 1: Pima County Sheriff says, no. She was dragged out off
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  Speaker 1: her home. This eighty four year old grandma in the night.
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  Speaker 5: Our mom was taken in the dark of night from
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  Speaker 5: her bed. In every hour and minute and second and
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  Speaker 5: every long night has been agony since then.
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  Speaker 7: Crime stories with Nancy Grace.
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  Speaker 1: There has been a lot of speculation that it's actually
• 11:35
  Speaker 1: victim blaming that Nancy Guthrie went to the front door
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  Speaker 1: and allowed her kidnapper to come in. Nothing could be
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  Speaker 1: further from the truth, Dave. We now know that in
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  Speaker 1: those critical forty one minutes, forty one minutes, at least
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  Speaker 1: one purp was in Nancy Guthrie's home, and this is
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  Speaker 1: an important fact and it can prove something. It's privative.
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  Speaker 1: We now know that Nancy Guthrie was forced out of
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  Speaker 1: her own bed, lying there asleep around two o'clock in
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  Speaker 1: the morning, an eighty four year old woman.
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  Speaker 7: What do we know.
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  Speaker 2: We know that when Savannah Guthrie posted the video, it
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  Speaker 2: was so shocking that a lot of kill missed what
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  Speaker 2: she said.
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  Speaker 4: She said that.
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  Speaker 2: Her mother was taken from her bed in the middle
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  Speaker 2: of the night. That tells us everything that we originally
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  Speaker 2: thought that the intruder or intruders came into the home,
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  Speaker 2: snuck into her room, awakened her out of a dead sleep,
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  Speaker 2: and took this eighty four year old grandmother out of
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  Speaker 2: her own bed. What it does also tell us, Nancy,
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  Speaker 2: is that we might have forensic evidence left behind on
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  Speaker 2: the bed in the bedroom, on the floor, on the nightstand.
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  Speaker 2: There's no any wonder of places where our kidnapper or
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  Speaker 2: kidnappers could have touched, dropped, felt, anything, but again taken
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  Speaker 2: out of her bedroom. Think about that for a minute.
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  Speaker 2: Eighty four years old and you're pulled out of bed.
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  Speaker 2: It's not an easy.
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  Speaker 7: Trip joining us.
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  Speaker 1: Misty gillis DNA expert investigative genetic genealogist at Purabon Nanolabs.
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: This is one of their specialties. At Pirabon. They focus
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  Speaker 1: on very difficult cases like a minuscule amount of DNA,
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  Speaker 1: degraded DNA, a mixture of DNA. When you are, Missy,
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  Speaker 1: thank you for being with us. When you hear the
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  Speaker 1: latest that Nancy was taken out off her bed forcibly taken.
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  Speaker 1: What DNA possibilities does that open up in your mind?
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  Speaker 9: What opens up the possibility of there being traced amounts
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  Speaker 9: of DNA found in that bedroom area like it was said,
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  Speaker 9: Possibly it was a nightstand that was touched. Possibly the
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  Speaker 9: forcible removal of Nancy had left priest DNA in that
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  Speaker 9: bedroom area. There must be a musing investigators are exactly
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  Speaker 9: seeing that it was the bedroom she was taken from,
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  Speaker 9: versus answering her door.
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  Speaker 1: You know. I'm thinking through what we know now, what
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  Speaker 1: did the perp do in those critical forty one minutes.
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  Speaker 1: First of all, we know he got in, We see
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  Speaker 1: him coming in the front door. We know that when
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  Speaker 1: he left the door remained unlocked. We don't know if
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  Speaker 1: it was locked when he entered. When you think and
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  Speaker 1: try to retrace what the perp did upon entering Nancy
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  Speaker 1: Guthrie's home, I want to focus on getting evidence. For instance,
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  Speaker 1: if Nancy Guthrie had hardwood or carpet, tablecloths or no
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  Speaker 1: table cloths, chats, key sitting or around little items and
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  Speaker 1: figurines or none, a dog, a cat or no dog
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  Speaker 1: or cat, all of these things equal evidence. Explain, Misty,
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  Speaker 1: You're gonna want to look at those most more porous samples.
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  Speaker 9: There's a device called an MBACK that's essentially a wet
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  Speaker 9: vacuum that will pull DNA and forensic evidence from those
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  Speaker 9: porous surfaces. So if there was something like carpeted flooring
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  Speaker 9: and he wasn't wearing booties, he say had touched the carpet,
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  Speaker 9: touched the bedding, touched to the pillow, that ENDBAC could
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  Speaker 9: pull that DNA evidence from that porous surface. When it
• 15:35
  Speaker 9: gets to more non poor surfaces like hardwood and things
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  Speaker 9: like that, Prady's evidence can still be.
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  Speaker 1: Okay, sometimes just a second misty, if you don't mind,
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  Speaker 1: I want to make sure I understand everything that you
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  Speaker 1: just said. And that was a lot you were talking
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  Speaker 1: about the betting. Okay, Now, now you've gotten past the door.
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  Speaker 1: If her door was closed, then he touched the doorknob.
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  Speaker 1: He very likely turned on the light switch. He may
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: have touched the bed frame itself or her bedside table.
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  Speaker 1: He may have touched her cell phone, which we understand
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  Speaker 1: was near her bedside that was left behind. Okay, so
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  Speaker 1: we've gotten past that, and I'll circle back to carpet, hardwood, pet,
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  Speaker 1: no pet, chopsky figurine sitting around or none. I want
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  Speaker 1: to circle back to that. You've taken me to straight
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  Speaker 1: to the bedroom.
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  Speaker 9: So walking in the door, there could be carpet on
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  Speaker 9: the ground. There could be hard ward flooring. If there's carpet,
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  Speaker 9: that's a porous sample that could an ENDBAC could be
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  Speaker 9: used on to collect DNA from. There could be a
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  Speaker 9: touch on a light switch. There could be a touch
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  Speaker 9: on a table. There could be objects of their touch
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  Speaker 9: that could be swabbed for that trace DNA. Now as
• 16:48
  Speaker 9: he makes his way through the house, there could be
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  Speaker 9: multiple touch points. There could be a railing on the stairs,
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  Speaker 9: there could be a wall that could be touched. Those
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  Speaker 9: are surfaces that could be swabbed for that trace DNA
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  Speaker 9: as well. And then once he enters the bedroom again
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  Speaker 9: we have things like light switches, we have a nightstand,
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  Speaker 9: we have the possible headboard. If he did physically remove
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  Speaker 9: her from the bed, there could be DNA that's left
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  Speaker 9: on that bedding, on those pillowcases, on her cell phone
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  Speaker 9: that perhaps was on the night stand. These are all
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  Speaker 9: areas that need to be looked at for that trace DNA.
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: I want to bring in Jeffrey Gentry joining US forensic
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: certified Bloodstained pattern Analyst, Senior crime scene analyst and death investigator.
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  Speaker 1: Jeff Thank you for being with us, Jeff. When they
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: first told me that her DNA, Nancy's DNA was found
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: in the home, I was like, well, of course her
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: DNA's in the home, she lives there, But how does
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: that tell you the sheriff that she was abducted? Looking
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: at the blood pattern that we see, Jeffrey Gentry, that
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: gives me hope that she is alive.
• 17:55
  Speaker 4: Of course, any blood of a crime scene is always concerning.
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  Speaker 4: It is a tremendous mines evidence that's in the blood.
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  Speaker 4: Not only can I tell you events that happen, but
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  Speaker 4: then of course you have the possibility to get DNA.
• 18:05
  Speaker 4: But when I look at these blood patterns, I'm not
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  Speaker 4: overly concerned. These are passive blood drops. They are drip
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  Speaker 4: stains a little bit of a drip trail, and then
• 18:14
  Speaker 4: there's a blood into blood pattern. A blood into blood
• 18:16
  Speaker 4: pattern is when blood is dripping from height into a
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  Speaker 4: blood source and it creates that neat little pattern of
• 18:22
  Speaker 4: drip stains with the little satellite spatter around it. So
• 18:26
  Speaker 4: this would indicate one that this is not a major injury.
• 18:30
  Speaker 4: Somebody of that age can get skin tears very easily
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  Speaker 4: in their arms on their hands, and those are going
• 18:36
  Speaker 4: to bleed quite a bit. But it also indicates that
• 18:39
  Speaker 4: this person is upright. They are stationary for some period
• 18:43
  Speaker 4: of time. But then there's also movement as well with
• 18:45
  Speaker 4: the drip trail. So nothing that I'm seeing would indicate
• 18:48
  Speaker 4: that one this person has a traumatic injury like a
• 18:52
  Speaker 4: gunshot wound or a stab wound. You don't see impact spatter.
• 18:56
  Speaker 4: These are all large volume stains that are going straight down,
• 18:59
  Speaker 4: indicating that person was either walking or stationary. But they're
• 19:02
  Speaker 4: upright joining me.
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  Speaker 1: Right now is a DNA specialist. It is Susanna Ryan
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: out of Redlands, California, Lab, director of forensic DNA analyst
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: at Pure Gold Forensics. I want to talk to you
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: about how DNA is obtained at a scene, for instance,
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: through UV lighting causing the DNA. Well, does it cause
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: a DNA to fluoresce? But when you look at DNA
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: left on a scene, it fluoresces. And you need near
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: dark or complete dark where you could use goggles that
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: are tinted red, yellow, or orange to block out light.
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: How does that work?
• 19:42
  Speaker 8: Right? So what you're referring to is sometimes we use
• 19:45
  Speaker 8: something called an alternate light source, and that helps us
• 19:48
  Speaker 8: identify things like saliva. Those sort of body fluids will fluoresce. Unfortunately,
• 19:56
  Speaker 8: other types of DNA, especially touch or skin cell DNA,
• 20:01
  Speaker 8: does not fluoress. I wish it did. I wish there
• 20:03
  Speaker 8: was a way for us to be able to just
• 20:06
  Speaker 8: see it by some invention like that. But what we
• 20:10
  Speaker 8: have to do is use our best educated guests as
• 20:14
  Speaker 8: to what would have been contacted. Where did this person
• 20:18
  Speaker 8: have to touch to enter the house? For example, is
• 20:22
  Speaker 8: there anything moved in the home that it looks like
• 20:25
  Speaker 8: this person contacted? And I would imagine that they are
• 20:30
  Speaker 8: focusing on items like that, especially as you pointed out,
• 20:33
  Speaker 8: with him touching this perpetrator, he's got a flashlight in
• 20:38
  Speaker 8: his mouth that he's moving around that he's probably touching.
• 20:41
  Speaker 8: So even though he's wearing gloves, that does not mean
• 20:44
  Speaker 8: he's not transferring his DNA into that house.
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: And saliva is so DNA rich. He touches it, yes,
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: multiple times. He touches the holster of the gun multiple times.
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: Then he reaches out to the doorknob. And we were
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: discussing Susannah Howe, the home was found with the front
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: door unlocked and all the lights on in the front
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: of the house, which is not Nancy Guthrie's routine. He
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: turned on the light switch. He probably turned on the
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: light switch in Nancy's room or touched her doorknob, which
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: would be an excellent conduit for saliva DNA. It just
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: takes a trace amount. So I guess you're saying that
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: with certain DNA such as saliva sperm you're in you
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: would use the alternate light source, but for touch DNA
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: it does not fluoresce, so you would swab the likely
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: suspects the doorknob, light switch, furniture, something that's been moved
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: in the home. Do I have it so far, yes,
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: Dave Mac with me. Crime Story's investigative reporter Dave Mac
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: explained about the two gloves found a little over a
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: mile in Nancy Guthrie's own neighborhood.
• 22:01
  Speaker 2: Law enforcement walked along the sides of the road looking
• 22:05
  Speaker 2: through brush and rocks about a mile and a half
• 22:08
  Speaker 2: from Nancy Guthrie's home. A mile and a half from
• 22:12
  Speaker 2: her home, on the side of the road in some brush,
• 22:17
  Speaker 2: first blood was found. Second glove found nearby in similar situation,
• 22:21
  Speaker 2: like it was just tossed out of a car driving
• 22:24
  Speaker 2: on the road.
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: We were showing you. It's for our friends at Fox News.
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: I want to see the day shot and I want
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: to show that to all of our guests. This is
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: also from our friends at Fox News. Straight out to
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: Nima Romani joining me, former federal prosecutor turned trial attorney. Nima,
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: I like this shot because you can see them going
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: in couples in daylight, and you can see exactly where
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: they're looking. They're kicking, literally beating the bushes along a roadside.
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: There were, as Dave Max said, scores of them out
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: in pairs, looking all up and down the roadways and Estrata, Sorata,
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: Tucson and Campbell and beyond. Then suddenly, at the same
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: time they find not one, but two black gloves, highly
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: similar to the ones worn by the intruder, the kidnapper.
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: I'm wondering if they got a tip, Nima, that someone
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: saw someone throw something out of a window. They don't
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: know what roadway, but they're looking all the roadways see that.
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: What do you make of it, Nima, There is no
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: coincidence in criminal law.
• 23:42
  Speaker 10: No, And we know Nancy that they've received thousands of tips,
• 23:45
  Speaker 10: some of them of course uncorroborated, but they have to
• 23:48
  Speaker 10: chase these down. And the fact that they're there searching
• 23:51
  Speaker 10: that area, you're right, likely means they receive a tip.
• 23:53
  Speaker 10: And the gloves, they are also very important. Obviously, you
• 23:58
  Speaker 10: can get DNA from a gloves.
• 24:00
  Speaker 3: You can even get free So the FBI.
• 24:03
  Speaker 10: Is involved, going to be sent to the best prime
• 24:05
  Speaker 10: lab there is and hopefully they can get something off
• 24:09
  Speaker 10: this glove and even if it's not DNA in the database.
• 24:12
  Speaker 11: You know Nancy better than anyone. With today's familial DNA searches,
• 24:17
  Speaker 11: you can find people based on their family members. So
• 24:21
  Speaker 11: if there's anything on these gloves, this the evidence that
• 24:25
  Speaker 11: breaks the case wide open.
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: We learn that there is DNA that has been recovered
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: inside Nancy Guthrie's home and seemingly it said that there's
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: another glove in their Dave Matt, what did we learn?
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: Learned that inside the home Nancy multiple gloves, plural gloves
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: were found inside the home. You know, we've been talking
• 24:48
  Speaker 2: about the glove that was found outside during the search
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: about a mile and a half from Nancy's home, But
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: we're finding out that gloves plural were found inside the
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: home and were apparently shipped to Florida or analysis.
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: Tammy Baller joining US DNA crime scene consultant, crime scene
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: investigation and reconstruction expert. What other DNA or evidence, fiber
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: evidence could be found in the home of Nancy Guthrie.
• 25:17
  Speaker 12: Yes, fiber evidence that's different, a little tougher to come by,
• 25:21
  Speaker 12: but hopefully something is very well processed. But also fingerprint
• 25:27
  Speaker 12: evidence is a big one. Hopefully they did a lot
• 25:31
  Speaker 12: of fingerprint evidence potentially. I know there are gloves involved,
• 25:35
  Speaker 12: the big one I would be looking for, as well
• 25:38
  Speaker 12: as the blood source that's on the front porch. Does
• 25:44
  Speaker 12: that start and begin in the household? And if so,
• 25:48
  Speaker 12: was Nancy able to fight back? Do we have two bleeders?
• 25:52
  Speaker 12: So you can't take any of that blood for granted.
• 25:55
  Speaker 12: You've got to look at blood stained patterns and see
• 25:57
  Speaker 12: if there's some outlier that actually could be from the perpetrator.
• 26:01
  Speaker 12: Maybe she was able to fight back pretty well. You
• 26:06
  Speaker 12: just don't know, and you can't take anything for granted.
• 26:08
  Speaker 12: So it's basically a process everything and collect everything that
• 26:13
  Speaker 12: could be a potential to Scott.
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: Iiker, joining US digital forensics expert formerly with the FBI.
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: What do you make of it? You were also a
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: homicide detective. What else do you believe they found in
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: the home? Touch, DNA, maybe fiber a hair. All it
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: takes is one hair?
• 26:32
  Speaker 13: One I agree hopefully they process that house very well.
• 26:39
  Speaker 13: But you got to remember when they first went there,
• 26:42
  Speaker 13: it's a missing person, and then later on it turned
• 26:46
  Speaker 13: out to be okay, this could be a kidnapping with
• 26:48
  Speaker 13: ransom and now the video. So initially the police departments
• 26:52
  Speaker 13: in there walking through the house, you know, looking in
• 26:56
  Speaker 13: the basement and the attic, in the every room and
• 26:59
  Speaker 13: making sure she's just not there again with the property
• 27:03
  Speaker 13: doing the same thing. So you got to remember, I
• 27:07
  Speaker 13: think we were talking about this DNA. The FBI was
• 27:10
  Speaker 13: called in a little bit later, a day or two
• 27:13
  Speaker 13: later to try to help, or the FBI came to
• 27:16
  Speaker 13: ask if they could help. So at that time maybe
• 27:19
  Speaker 13: the sheriff's department was on their own saying, hey, we
• 27:23
  Speaker 13: should probably take this glove that we found in the
• 27:25
  Speaker 13: house and send it to the lab. Even if we
• 27:28
  Speaker 13: do get some DNA and it's put into CODIS, we're
• 27:32
  Speaker 13: not sure if he's going to match anybody that's known.
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: In the Golden Gate killer case, Joseph DeAngelo, one of
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: the first of its kind familial DNA genealogy DNA. Hey,
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: that video we were just showing you is from twelve News,
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: So that's a possibility. If the PARP doesn't have a record,
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: he may not show up in CODIS. But if he
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: has a brother, a cousin, a father, a son, incut
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: with a record, we're going to get a match. It
• 27:59
  Speaker 1: won't be full, Matt, but then we'll be onto something
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: that doesn't work, We'll go to genetic genealogy familial DNA,
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: which has been approved to practically every jurisdiction. To Dave
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: Matt Crime Story's investigative reporter, d NA tell me.
• 28:13
  Speaker 6: Everything DNA found at Nancy Guthrie's home has been determined
• 28:22
  Speaker 6: to belong to someone not in close contact with Nancy Guthrie.
• 28:28
  Speaker 4: This is explosive.
• 28:30
  Speaker 6: Information as it's the first indicator we have that DNA
• 28:35
  Speaker 6: belonging to someone not related, not in close contact with Nancy,
• 28:39
  Speaker 6: found at the home Nancy. We also have the glove,
• 28:44
  Speaker 6: the glove found about a mile and a half from
• 28:47
  Speaker 6: Nancy's home, That too is being tested, and that too
• 28:52
  Speaker 6: has mail DNA. The glove with the DNA looks like
• 28:59
  Speaker 6: what the glove we saw in the surveillance video from
• 29:03
  Speaker 6: the nest camera on Nancy Guthrie's front door. That glove
• 29:08
  Speaker 6: that we saw in that video is what appears to
• 29:11
  Speaker 6: be the glove found in the desert a mile and
• 29:13
  Speaker 6: a half from her home with male DNA. So those
• 29:17
  Speaker 6: are your two big DNA explosions right now in the investigation.
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: That's right, the glove found near Nancy Guthrie's home about
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: one point five miles from her home does contain DNA evidence.
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: All those so called experts claiming it would not contain
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: DNA are wrong. Also, the glove found with DNA evidence
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: on it appears to be what the suspect in the
• 29:45
  Speaker 1: video was wearing. According to the FBI, the black glove
• 29:52
  Speaker 1: found near Nancy Guthrie's home contains DNA evidence and it
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: is being tested. We could be hours away from that
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: DNA match. And again, the FBI says the glove appears
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: to match the gloves worn by the suspect on Nancy
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: Guthrie's porch. This guy, we're showing you right now, the
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: one with the DNA profile recovered, is different from other gloves.
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: What does that mean that it is different from other gloves?
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: Dave mac What other gloves?
• 30:33
  Speaker 4: Nancy?
• 30:34
  Speaker 6: There have been reportedly sixteen other gloves, maybe even more,
• 30:41
  Speaker 6: that have been found in this investigation. But Nancy, the
• 30:46
  Speaker 6: sixteen gloves that have been found range in different colors,
• 30:52
  Speaker 6: from red to brown to black. They range in the
• 30:56
  Speaker 6: different types of gloves that are available.
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: Tammy Ballard, this is a bombshell. If these aren't the
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: gloves worn in the video. Let's see the video again,
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: and according to police sources the part was wearing gloves.
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: Under the gloves, we don't know that that's true. Whatever
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: the case, DNA has been found on these gloves, Tammy Ballard,
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: and it is mail DNA.
• 31:29
  Speaker 12: What comes next next is the code is search and
• 31:34
  Speaker 12: then they'll know if they have some sort of direction
• 31:38
  Speaker 12: to go with that search, if they're a hit. If not,
• 31:42
  Speaker 12: the next step would intuitively be can we start with
• 31:46
  Speaker 12: the genealogy process and go down that path with a
• 31:51
  Speaker 12: different DNA profile from the same gloves. So hopefully it
• 31:55
  Speaker 12: was a single source enough profile that and there's DNA
• 32:00
  Speaker 12: remaining so that they might have to be able to
• 32:04
  Speaker 12: share that DNA with that second process for genealogy, but
• 32:07
  Speaker 12: it can be a multi pronged approach to identify the
• 32:11
  Speaker 12: individual as fast as possible.
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: Jimmy Baller, what is an st R analysis?
• 32:20
  Speaker 12: That is what I would consider your standard DNA testing
• 32:24
  Speaker 12: most forensic laboratories across the country. That is what we
• 32:29
  Speaker 12: have all used. It stands for short tandem repeat testing,
• 32:35
  Speaker 12: very distinct, regulated validated locations of DNA that are being
• 32:42
  Speaker 12: tested for potential comparison to suspects or uploads into databases.
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: Okay, then we will take the str results and put
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: it into CODIS. CODA is the combined DNA index System
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: and acronism. CODIS is FBI managed its software and it
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: operates on local, state, and national DNA databases. It IDs
• 33:11
  Speaker 1: suspects and they do that by comparing convicted offenders, not
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: necessarily just felons, misdemeanors, sometimes two, all of them across
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: the country, missing people, and DNA found on crime scenes.
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: Coburger Brian Coburger's DNA is now in CODIS. Now here's
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: the problem with COTIS and CODIS is fantastic. It matches
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: DNA profiles even from unsolved cases to individuals and other
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: crime scenes. It also uses the twenty core short tandem
• 33:48
  Speaker 1: repeat genetic markers. Here's the thing. Only people, the only
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: people in CODIS, generally speaking, are convicts. So if the
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: purp is not already convicted, then once you put the
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: DNA into CODIS, you may not get an identical match,
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: but you may get an eh match, which would mean
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: the purp is related to the person in CODIS. It
• 34:23
  Speaker 1: could be a brother, a cousin, a dad, a son,
• 34:26
  Speaker 1: a nephew, a distant nephew, a distant cousin, you'll get
• 34:32
  Speaker 1: a quasi match tammy ballor DNA expert. Isn't that true?
• 34:38
  Speaker 12: Yes, it is going to be a different kind of
• 34:41
  Speaker 12: search in the CODIS database. But first and foremost you're
• 34:45
  Speaker 12: going to be comparing that traditional str profile from this
• 34:49
  Speaker 12: unknown male to convicted offenders who's in this database, but
• 34:54
  Speaker 12: also other forensic unknown cases, So samples from other cases
• 34:59
  Speaker 12: that may have identified a potential perpetrator could also be
• 35:04
  Speaker 12: related to this case.
• 35:10
  Speaker 7: Crime stories with Nancy Grace.
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: If Nancy Guthrie is still alive, which many of us
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: believe she is, especially if the kidnapper is somehow close
• 35:24
  Speaker 1: to her inner circle and knows them. Would the perp
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: kill Nancy knowing her family, knowing those close to her. Tonight,
• 35:37
  Speaker 1: a lot happening in the search for Nancy Guthrie. This
• 35:40
  Speaker 1: as the police, FBI, law enforcement rise from the ashes
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: of a gut punch that the DNA in the glove
• 35:49
  Speaker 1: found about a mile and a half away from Nancy's home,
• 35:53
  Speaker 1: does not get a hit in CODIS, the National DNA Depository,
• 36:00
  Speaker 1: It's not over yet. Straight out to Joseph Scott Morgan
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: joining US Professor Forensicks, Jacksonville State University, author of Blood
• 36:07
  Speaker 1: Beneath My Feet on Amazon Joscott, I want to talk
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: to you about why is everyone whining, carrying on like
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: it's the end of the world that we didn't get
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: a hit on codi's first try. Cases always have setbacks.
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: What is next DNA wi'se Joseph Scott Morgan.
• 36:31
  Speaker 14: For me, Nancy, it has been and shall ever be
• 36:34
  Speaker 14: investigative genetic genealogy with this. And here's the thing. I
• 36:38
  Speaker 14: don't want them to blister through the sample that they have.
• 36:42
  Speaker 14: Whatever these samples are, they have to be conservative with
• 36:45
  Speaker 14: them because you can have samples that you acquire at
• 36:49
  Speaker 14: seems you don't want to do anything that is going
• 36:52
  Speaker 14: to waste the samples that you have. So the idea
• 36:56
  Speaker 14: is you have to get enough of the DNA material
• 36:59
  Speaker 14: to a lab that can do investigative genetic genealogy where
• 37:03
  Speaker 14: they can plug this in, create a family tree, hopefully
• 37:06
  Speaker 14: through open source DNA, and create this profile where maybe
• 37:11
  Speaker 14: you can find who this individual might be related to.
• 37:15
  Speaker 14: Cotis is not a magic bullet, Nancy. Not every person
• 37:18
  Speaker 14: in the US is in the CODAS system, And you
• 37:21
  Speaker 14: know the idea that this person would be I think
• 37:24
  Speaker 14: that they're thinking, and they have to They have to
• 37:26
  Speaker 14: entertain this thought. From an investigative standpoint. This individual has
• 37:30
  Speaker 14: had interaction with the system before that would compel the
• 37:33
  Speaker 14: system to take their sample and put it in. That
• 37:36
  Speaker 14: doesn't necessarily always happen. This might be this person's first time.
• 37:40
  Speaker 14: And I got to tell you, looking at some of
• 37:42
  Speaker 14: the things I've seen on these images, this guy's an amateur,
• 37:45
  Speaker 14: all right, So it doesn't surprise me. They didn't get
• 37:47
  Speaker 14: a hit on codis.
• 37:49
  Speaker 1: Dave mac how many more times can we say it?
• 37:54
  Speaker 1: The DNA on the random glove found about one point
• 37:58
  Speaker 1: five miles away from Nancy Guthrie's thrown to the side
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: of the street did not get a CODAS hit. That's
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: the combined DNA Data Bank, the National Data Bank, correct, right.
• 38:10
  Speaker 14: It did not.
• 38:10
  Speaker 6: It did not get a CODAS hit.
• 38:12
  Speaker 1: You're correct, okay, which means you know, if you follow
• 38:18
  Speaker 1: that through, the DNA in the home was not connected
• 38:23
  Speaker 1: to that glove and the d the DNA and a
• 38:26
  Speaker 1: home did not get a CODAS hit. Is that correct?
• 38:30
  Speaker 6: That is correct.
• 38:32
  Speaker 2: It's not all of it, but it's correct.
• 38:33
  Speaker 1: Okay. What do you mean by not all of it?
• 38:38
  Speaker 2: Well, there was also a partial DNA collected inside of
• 38:43
  Speaker 2: the home. That partial DNA was sent to the Florida lab,
• 38:47
  Speaker 2: just like the DNA found on the glove and in
• 38:50
  Speaker 2: the other end, the other DNA found in the house.
• 38:52
  Speaker 2: The difference here is that it is a partial DNA
• 38:55
  Speaker 2: profile and they have yet to the people in Florida
• 38:58
  Speaker 2: at the lab have yet to to develop it out
• 39:01
  Speaker 2: where it could be checked in CODIS. So that partial
• 39:04
  Speaker 2: DNA that they've developed from inside the home has not
• 39:08
  Speaker 2: yet been subjected to a coda's hit because it is
• 39:11
  Speaker 2: a partial DNA.
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: Dave mac You're right, and I appreciate the way you
• 39:16
  Speaker 1: said that, because some reporters have stated there was a
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: partial DNA profile and it didn't get a hit at COTIS.
• 39:24
  Speaker 1: The reality is CODIS is a national data bank. It's
• 39:29
  Speaker 1: very very strict on what DNA profiles, what DNA it
• 39:33
  Speaker 1: will even accept to enter into the data bank, unlike
• 39:39
  Speaker 1: the data bank there in Arizona. I'm thinking about how
• 39:44
  Speaker 1: to go old school to find Nancy Guthrie, starting with
• 39:50
  Speaker 1: lpr's license plate readers, red light cams. Yes, Jeffrey Gentry
• 39:57
  Speaker 1: joining US forensic certified bloodstain pattern analyst. Let's talk old school.
• 40:04
  Speaker 1: We've heard over and over from mainstream media that nobody's
• 40:09
  Speaker 1: door cam could likely catch anything because it's the houses
• 40:13
  Speaker 1: in that neighborhood are set far off the street, and
• 40:16
  Speaker 1: there is a lot of foliage, trees, you name it.
• 40:21
  Speaker 1: That's why people want to live there. You have a
• 40:23
  Speaker 1: seclude Look at all the can I see that aeril again,
• 40:26
  Speaker 1: look at all the trees, the foliage around each home.
• 40:30
  Speaker 1: I see what they're saying. But those streets, Jeff Gentry,
• 40:36
  Speaker 1: have to have to pour out somewhere, like the stream
• 40:41
  Speaker 1: to the river, like the river to the sea. There's
• 40:45
  Speaker 1: an outlet somewhere, and at that outlet, I guarantee you
• 40:50
  Speaker 1: there's a red light.
• 40:52
  Speaker 7: Bam, what about it?
• 40:55
  Speaker 4: I completely agree.
• 40:56
  Speaker 3: Well, you have to rely on traditional police work, you
• 41:00
  Speaker 3: have to rely on science to solve this crime. This
• 41:03
  Speaker 3: is not your typical criminal. It's not somebody that has
• 41:06
  Speaker 3: made huge mistakes. They probably didn't have their cell phone
• 41:08
  Speaker 3: with them where they're going to get self power things.
• 41:10
  Speaker 3: They're not making major mistakes like you see in a
• 41:13
  Speaker 3: lot of crimes of passion. This is obviously planned out.
• 41:16
  Speaker 3: This is not your typical crime. But you see that
• 41:19
  Speaker 3: they did make mistakes. They took things from the home,
• 41:22
  Speaker 3: like the camera. They made mistakes by leaving bloodstains behind.
• 41:27
  Speaker 3: So when you're talking about forensics and science, you think
• 41:30
  Speaker 3: about every single contact leaves a trace. That's one of
• 41:33
  Speaker 3: the foundations of forensic science. Every single contact leaves a trace.
• 41:37
  Speaker 3: So when this person was preparing for this crime, they
• 41:41
  Speaker 3: left forensic evidence. When this person was traveling to the scene,
• 41:44
  Speaker 3: they left forensic evidence. When they broke into the home.
• 41:46
  Speaker 3: And we're talking about forced entry. Somebody used some kind
• 41:49
  Speaker 3: of a mechanism to unlock a door, So that's what
• 41:52
  Speaker 3: forced entry means. So they're leaving behind evidence. Looking at
• 41:55
  Speaker 3: the front door, I don't see any fingerprint dust. So
• 41:58
  Speaker 3: what I would do in this case is I would
• 42:01
  Speaker 3: scrap everything, start from scratch, recreate this whole event. Try
• 42:05
  Speaker 3: to think about how this criminal got in the home.
• 42:09
  Speaker 3: Walk their path, how did they interact with the victim?
• 42:13
  Speaker 3: Walk their path, did they sit down somewhere, did they
• 42:15
  Speaker 3: touch things, did they wash their hands? Did they eat
• 42:17
  Speaker 3: something out of the refrigerator. All of these contacts inside
• 42:20
  Speaker 3: the home and with the victim can leave trace evidence.
• 42:24
  Speaker 3: They could leave bibers, it could leave fingerprints, it could
• 42:26
  Speaker 3: leave DNA. You can't rule anything out in this case.
• 42:30
  Speaker 3: You have to think like a criminal in these cases,
• 42:33
  Speaker 3: how did this person get in? How did they exit
• 42:35
  Speaker 3: the door cam? Most of these door cams you can't
• 42:39
  Speaker 3: just pull them off. They require some kind of special
• 42:41
  Speaker 3: tool to get them off. So was there some kind
• 42:45
  Speaker 3: of a scratch or did they leave a fingerprint behind
• 42:48
  Speaker 3: when they were reaching through the door to remove this
• 42:50
  Speaker 3: camera so it wouldn't see when they're walking her out.
• 42:53
  Speaker 3: We know that she was bleeding. We know she's standing
• 42:54
  Speaker 3: there for some period of time. We believe that she
• 42:56
  Speaker 3: was upright and walked away because the nature of the bloodstains.
• 43:00
  Speaker 3: But why didn't she follow the ground? But what was
• 43:02
  Speaker 3: the reason that she left that home without being dragged
• 43:07
  Speaker 3: away or carried away? You have to think about all
• 43:09
  Speaker 3: these things. You can't rely on assumption at this point.
• 43:13
  Speaker 3: You have to recreate everything and figure out where this
• 43:17
  Speaker 3: person messed up, because this criminal did mess up somewhere
• 43:20
  Speaker 3: and they will be caught.
• 43:25
  Speaker 1: New DNA evidence discovered Dave mac joining me Crime Stories
• 43:30
  Speaker 1: investigative reporter New DNA.
• 43:32
  Speaker 2: What investigators found biological material that does not belong to
• 43:38
  Speaker 2: Nancy Guthrie. They found it inside the home weeks after
• 43:42
  Speaker 2: the home had already been searched, after evidence had been collected,
• 43:46
  Speaker 2: and after the home was briefly turned back to the
• 43:50
  Speaker 2: family before they investigators shut it back down.
• 43:54
  Speaker 1: Guys, we're showing Nancy's home right now. This is from
• 43:56
  Speaker 1: our friends at twelve knees. There's so many directions to
• 44:00
  Speaker 1: go with this bombshell. It's maybe a bombshell to only
• 44:06
  Speaker 1: crime watchers, crime officionados, people like US prosecutors, former FBI lawyers, shrinks,
• 44:14
  Speaker 1: DNA experts. You got a big, big problem with the
• 44:19
  Speaker 1: fact that this DNA is discovered two weeks later. Let's
• 44:23
  Speaker 1: go ahead, let's tackle it head on. Joining me Kelly Hyman,
• 44:28
  Speaker 1: veteran trial attorney analysts podcast star of Once Upon a
• 44:34
  Speaker 1: Crime in Hollywood. Kelly, go ahead, I've got I'm ready
• 44:38
  Speaker 1: for you. See I know what you're gonna say, and
• 44:41
  Speaker 1: I'm ready for you. Go ahead, attack the DNA. I'm ready.
• 44:46
  Speaker 15: DNA is key to this case. Why is DNA so important?
• 44:51
  Speaker 15: Because the DNA can prove who was there. The DNA
• 44:56
  Speaker 15: can help substantiate who was in the house at this time.
• 45:00
  Speaker 15: The police went in and then two weeks later find
• 45:04
  Speaker 15: this DNA. All of a sudden after two weeks it's found. Now,
• 45:10
  Speaker 15: I could see a lot of couch investigators saying that
• 45:13
  Speaker 15: there's something wrong with that. Why didn't they find this
• 45:17
  Speaker 15: DNA the first time? Why is it all of a
• 45:20
  Speaker 15: sudden being found Nancy?
• 45:22
  Speaker 7: Okay, there you go.
• 45:23
  Speaker 1: That's just a tiny, tiny tidbit. Kelly him is actually
• 45:27
  Speaker 1: being generous and delicate with this attack, because let me
• 45:32
  Speaker 1: assure you that when and if this goes to trial,
• 45:35
  Speaker 1: there will be a frontal attack on this DNA. Here's
• 45:41
  Speaker 1: my response. So they find the perp, Okay, this DNA
• 45:46
  Speaker 1: has already been found, Okay, even though it's late to
• 45:49
  Speaker 1: the party. When they find the perp, that's going to
• 45:53
  Speaker 1: be much later. So what their mind readers? They now
• 45:58
  Speaker 1: know who the purp is, they go get DNA and
• 46:01
  Speaker 1: they plant it. Yeah, Susannah Ryan, lab director forensic DNA
• 46:06
  Speaker 1: analyst at Pure Gold Forensics. How will authorities go about
• 46:12
  Speaker 1: ruling out every worker, every crime scene investigator that had
• 46:17
  Speaker 1: been in the home so we're not subjected to claims
• 46:21
  Speaker 1: of cross contamination.
• 46:24
  Speaker 8: Well, that can be done pretty simply by getting their
• 46:27
  Speaker 8: DNA profile and doing a comparison to any developed DNA
• 46:31
  Speaker 8: that we get from that crime scene, and I really
• 46:34
  Speaker 8: don't see it as a problem. I think one of
• 46:36
  Speaker 8: the things that you mentioned in the past is we
• 46:39
  Speaker 8: don't have a suspect yet, so we're not creating DNA.
• 46:42
  Speaker 8: We cannot create a DNA profile. Whatever is on that
• 46:45
  Speaker 8: evidence is on there, we don't even have the suspects
• 46:49
  Speaker 8: DNA to compare it to. So once we have that,
• 46:52
  Speaker 8: if there's a match, we can't no one can say, oh, they,
• 46:57
  Speaker 8: you know, somehow planted his DNA. We didn't have his DNA.
• 47:01
  Speaker 8: So I really don't see it as a problem. I
• 47:03
  Speaker 8: work on cold cases all the time where we have
• 47:06
  Speaker 8: DNA that maybe was collected in the eighties or nineties,
• 47:10
  Speaker 8: and we're just getting a profile today. That doesn't mean
• 47:13
  Speaker 8: that we somehow created it. It's always been there. We're
• 47:17
  Speaker 8: just developing the DNA profile at this time.
• 47:21
  Speaker 1: To Mary Coleman joining us Kold Crime Files in Investigator
• 47:28
  Speaker 1: Mary Coleman, we now know that DNA in Nancy Guthrie's
• 47:32
  Speaker 1: home is stranger DNA, But yet we are also hearing
• 47:38
  Speaker 1: that there are problems because it's mixed DNA. What do
• 47:43
  Speaker 1: you know, Yeah, we're hearing the same thing Nancy.
• 47:47
  Speaker 16: We've been told that it's going to take a longer
• 47:50
  Speaker 16: amount of time, even up to a year, to get
• 47:52
  Speaker 16: some of this back to let us know whether this
• 47:55
  Speaker 16: person is in a system, or whether they have a
• 47:57
  Speaker 16: relative who we can trace this to, or anything of
• 48:00
  Speaker 16: that nature, which is obviously concerning time is of the
• 48:02
  Speaker 16: essence right now. We've seen this technology used in so
• 48:05
  Speaker 16: many other cases, and so to hear that it's mixed
• 48:08
  Speaker 16: and that it might not be as reliable as some
• 48:11
  Speaker 16: of the other DNA that we've seen in previous cases
• 48:14
  Speaker 16: is alarming for the community and especially for the family.
• 48:16
  Speaker 16: As you can imagine, they just want answers.
• 48:19
  Speaker 1: Here straight out to Tammy Balar joining us. Tammy's the
• 48:23
  Speaker 1: crime scene investigation investigator reconstruction as former DNA criminalists for
• 48:28
  Speaker 1: the San Diego Police Department Crime Lab, Tammy Ballard.
• 48:32
  Speaker 7: In this day and age.
• 48:35
  Speaker 1: Mixed DNA is to be expected and is actually routine,
• 48:42
  Speaker 1: explain exactly how well, first of all, what is mixed
• 48:47
  Speaker 1: DNA deoxurivay to clayic acid, and how exactly mechanically is
• 48:53
  Speaker 1: it evaluated and analyzed?
• 48:56
  Speaker 7: How do you do it?
• 48:57
  Speaker 1: How do you handle mixed DNA?
• 49:00
  Speaker 12: Mixtures of DNA are going to make law enforcement and
• 49:04
  Speaker 12: attorneys very nervous. So in the DNA world, mixtures are everywhere.
• 49:11
  Speaker 12: As technology advances, the sensitivity increases, you're going to find
• 49:17
  Speaker 12: mixtures in almost everything. Even bloodstains that used to be
• 49:21
  Speaker 12: single source, you might get that one percent contributor that's
• 49:26
  Speaker 12: going to make it a mixture. So that being said,
• 49:29
  Speaker 12: in this case, we know Nancy's profile, we know her
• 49:34
  Speaker 12: family's profiles, so there's a lot to work with and
• 49:38
  Speaker 12: basically remove from those mixtures. Do I think it's going
• 49:43
  Speaker 12: to take a year, Not at all. I think that's
• 49:46
  Speaker 12: the law enforcement translation because it's probably lack of understanding.
• 49:53
  Speaker 12: So what they've got is probably good mixtures that they
• 49:56
  Speaker 12: have to deal with and they're going to put those out,
• 49:59
  Speaker 12: But it is not going to take a year in
• 50:01
  Speaker 12: my opinion.
• 50:03
  Speaker 1: You know, Tammy Ballard little known fact. DNA has been
• 50:07
  Speaker 1: used for decades. It's been used on the battlefield to
• 50:14
  Speaker 1: identify victims our military, and it has advanced, advanced advance.
• 50:22
  Speaker 1: I tried a lot of cases before it was accepted
• 50:26
  Speaker 1: in court, and a lot of cases after it was
• 50:28
  Speaker 1: accepted in court, and it makes all the difference. When
• 50:32
  Speaker 1: I heard Nano's blurt out again, it could take a year.
• 50:38
  Speaker 1: That's not true. Anyone that has worked with DNA knows
• 50:43
  Speaker 1: that is not true. Now, what can take some time,
• 50:46
  Speaker 1: and please Tammy jump in. What can take some time
• 50:50
  Speaker 1: is when you're trying to build out a family tree
• 50:52
  Speaker 1: with genetic genealogy. That can take some time. It can
• 50:57
  Speaker 1: take weeks, it could take a month.
• 50:58
  Speaker 7: It does not take a year.
• 51:01
  Speaker 1: And I'll point to one of the first times it
• 51:04
  Speaker 1: was you successful in our country, and that is the
• 51:06
  Speaker 1: Golden State Killer. I always use him as the poster
• 51:08
  Speaker 1: boy for genetic genealogy because it was one of the
• 51:10
  Speaker 1: first right that didn't take a year, and it had
• 51:14
  Speaker 1: never been admitted in court before.
• 51:16
  Speaker 7: So you said a couple of things.
• 51:18
  Speaker 1: I want to follow up on. Number one, you said
• 51:20
  Speaker 1: there could be a mixture of one percent.
• 51:24
  Speaker 7: What did you mean by one percent?
• 51:26
  Speaker 1: One percent?
• 51:26
  Speaker 12: What When I testify in court, as I just did
• 51:31
  Speaker 12: last week, I inform a jury that the sensitivity is
• 51:36
  Speaker 12: so advanced at this point, and the technology is so
• 51:40
  Speaker 12: advanced that when historically, if you would swab a blood
• 51:44
  Speaker 12: stain off of a surface, you're going to get a
• 51:47
  Speaker 12: single source profiled, one person, your bleeder. Now, because that
• 51:52
  Speaker 12: sensitivity has increased. I take a swab, I swab that
• 51:56
  Speaker 12: blood stain, and I'm very likely collecting cells from under
• 52:00
  Speaker 12: beneath that bloodstain, and those cells are showing up in
• 52:04
  Speaker 12: my and creating a mixture of DNA. So what everyone
• 52:09
  Speaker 12: needs to realize is that there are mixtures, but the
• 52:13
  Speaker 12: technology is advancing so much that we're able to deal
• 52:17
  Speaker 12: with those mixtures so much better. Now there are limitations,
• 52:22
  Speaker 12: So genealogy is coming along very rapidly, but that type
• 52:27
  Speaker 12: of testing, that SNIP testing, not the traditional str testing,
• 52:32
  Speaker 12: has the limitations that you may not be able to
• 52:37
  Speaker 12: work with something that is a three person mixture. Now,
• 52:41
  Speaker 12: again we have Nancy's profile, so if we take Nancy
• 52:45
  Speaker 12: out of any mixture, now maybe we're dealing with a
• 52:49
  Speaker 12: two person mixture and that might be something that we
• 52:52
  Speaker 12: can use for genealogy. But with traditional STR testing, we're
• 52:57
  Speaker 12: up to evaluating five person mixture. So it is definitely
• 53:02
  Speaker 12: something that we can work with and it does not
• 53:05
  Speaker 12: take a year.
• 53:07
  Speaker 1: Tammy, you said one percent, and when you were originally
• 53:13
  Speaker 1: explaining dn R mix DNA mixed DNA, and I took
• 53:18
  Speaker 1: that to mean the mixture could be one percent Nancy
• 53:22
  Speaker 1: and ninety nine percent the stranger. Can you actually tell
• 53:29
  Speaker 1: a jury we had a mixture of DNA. Let's just
• 53:32
  Speaker 1: pretend we're talking about a rape case. We had a
• 53:34
  Speaker 1: mixture of DNA, and fifty percent of the DNA that
• 53:37
  Speaker 1: we obtained off the victim's body was the victims DNA,
• 53:41
  Speaker 1: fifty percent was the defendants DNA. You can actually I
• 53:45
  Speaker 1: sew it down to a percentage.
• 53:48
  Speaker 12: Yes, with the current computer technology, the software that is developed,
• 53:53
  Speaker 12: you can actually estimate. Now it's an estimate, so you
• 53:57
  Speaker 12: can estimate the percent of contribution from each person in
• 54:03
  Speaker 12: that mixture. So when I report the data and I say, okay,
• 54:08
  Speaker 12: I have a three person mixture, ninety two percent of
• 54:12
  Speaker 12: that is estimated to come from one contributor and eight
• 54:15
  Speaker 12: percent of that is estimated to come from another contributor.
• 54:19
  Speaker 12: I say those values because I was able to get
• 54:22
  Speaker 12: an eight percent contributor up to a code of search.
• 54:26
  Speaker 12: So we are moving so far forward with the technology
• 54:30
  Speaker 12: that it's just better and better. So as long as
• 54:34
  Speaker 12: the laboratories that they're sending them to are utilizing this technology,
• 54:39
  Speaker 12: which they are, this is not going to take a year.
• 54:46
  Speaker 1: If you know or think you know anything about the
• 54:49
  Speaker 1: disappearance of Nancy Guthrie Again. We call on YouTube dial
• 54:53
  Speaker 1: toll free eight hundred two two five five three two
• 54:57
  Speaker 1: four eight hundred call FBI, or if you wish to
• 55:02
  Speaker 1: remain anonymous five two zero eight eight two seven four
• 55:06
  Speaker 1: six three five two zero eight eight two seven four
• 55:11
  Speaker 1: sixty three. There is a one point two plus million
• 55:16
  Speaker 1: dollar reward. No arrest, no conviction required, just information leading
• 55:23
  Speaker 1: to Nancy Guthrie. Prayers go on. Good night friend,