Latest / Project Podcast / Secrets to leadership success with career coach Susanne Madsen

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Secrets to leadership success with career coach Susanne Madsen · Project Podcast

0:08
Welcome to the APM podcast. APM is the childhood body for
0:11
the project profession. My name is Emma DaVita, and I'm
0:14
the editor of Project APM's quarterly journal and your host.
0:18
In this podcast I'm speaking to Suzanne Madsen, an executive
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coach for business leaders, particularly for those working
0:25
in the project profession. She is the award-winning author
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of The Power of Project Leadership and is a regular
0:31
contributor to Project Journal. Susanne is known for her
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transformational leadership programmes and has coached
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hundreds of individuals from high profile organisations
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across the globe. Her new book, How to Do the
0:43
Inner Work is available as a book, e-book and audiobook.
0:46
We often think the answer to our personal and professional
0:49
problems lie outside of us, she says, but many of the answers
0:53
we're looking for can be found within.
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In her book, she shows you how to do exactly that.
0:58
It is a practical guide to self discovery, empowerment and
1:02
emotional healing where Suzanne shares the life changing tools
1:06
and exercises she uses with her coaching clients.
1:09
Listen on to find out the secrets to leadership success
1:12
that Suzanne shared with me from the years she has spent coaching
1:15
those at the very top of the profession.
1:24
Welcome, Suzanne. It's nice to catch up with you.
1:28
Thank you Emma, it is really good to see.
1:29
You. Yeah.
1:30
So really interesting to uncover the secrets to success from the
1:35
people you've worked with over many years.
1:37
I mean, you are you're a highly respected leadership coach and
1:41
you've coached many project professionals.
1:43
What would you say is the most common issue that you're asked
1:47
to help with? There are many, many topics that
1:50
people come with. However, there are also patterns
1:53
that I see and and the same reoccurring issues.
1:56
And first of all, perhaps we should establish that leadership
1:58
of course happens in relationship with others because
2:01
I don't lead in a vacuum. And so the challenges that
2:05
people come with are often relationship based, so or
2:08
relational. So for instance, my team member
2:12
isn't doing what I expect them to and I don't feel I have the
2:15
authority to just tell them. Or if I tell them something
2:18
happens and they still don't do it, I feel really frustrated and
2:22
misunderstand each other. Or it could be a stakeholder.
2:25
Perhaps a stakeholder expects too much of me or I don't know
2:28
how to say no or they change their mind and in the last
2:32
minute. And so these are often those
2:35
challenges. It's, it's having, it's building
2:38
those relationships. And what do I do as a project
2:41
manager or leader with my frustrations?
2:43
Do I just tell them or, or do I, do I try to suppress my
2:47
frustration or, and they should know better, shouldn't they, you
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know, kind of I shouldn't have to explicitly tell them because
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one of my first questions would be, well, tell me about the
2:57
expectations. Have you agreed to these
3:00
expectations? And sometimes people will say
3:02
exactly that. Well, it's so obvious.
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I shouldn't have to tell them how to do their job, but before
3:09
or until we have really built the relationship, it's better
3:13
that we are explicit and really make sure that we agree what are
3:17
we expecting of each other because oftentimes we make
3:20
assumptions. So I assume that the other
3:23
person understands the same thing as I do.
3:26
And the same with stakeholders, I make an assumption that just
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because I've mentioned it once to the stakeholder that they
3:31
have internalised it and put it in their agenda.
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And so these challenges come down to, yes, agreeing
3:38
expectations and also having the conversation.
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And I think most of the people I coach, we're so good at talking
3:47
about what we call content, the issues, the topics, the risks,
3:51
but having real conversations also about behaviour and
3:54
expectations, that's really hard for us.
3:57
Have you got any tips about being explicit about the
4:00
expectations? Do you actually say, look, let's
4:02
have a chat about what we expect from each other and, and how do
4:05
you go about checking that that such that messages got got
4:08
through? Is it a case of asking, kind of
4:11
confirming at the end of the conversation or any kind of
4:14
practical tips you'd pass on? Yeah, I think a big part of of
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being a good leader is also to be a good coach and a good
4:21
coach. We're having a conversation.
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It's not just me telling you what to do.
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We we are actually building a relationship.
4:28
So with expectations it is. OK, let's talk about how we get
4:31
this delivered. My idea is XYZ.
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What is? What is your idea and is this
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achievable for you? So I'm not just saying I want
4:40
this to be done. Is that OK?
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And the other person can almost only say yes or no.
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I want a conversation where I ask open questions.
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Tell me how this fits into your schedule.
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Tell me the concerns you have about this.
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What questions do you have for me about this task?
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Is there another way of doing this so the other person has to
5:01
engage and they have to think and internalise?
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What is it really that I'm committing to?
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I'm not just saying yes or no, I'm I'm actually actively
5:08
thinking through how am I going to fit this in?
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How does this fit in in relationship with my other
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commitments? What you said initially around
5:18
relationships. What comes down to
5:19
relationships? And in the broader picture, how
5:23
have you got any foolproof tips about how to get a relationship
5:28
with a new person at work off the ground in the right way?
5:33
So let's start the other way. When, when we know somebody
5:37
really well, I think we can we know how to approach them.
5:40
We can make we categorise people.
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So if we work really well, somebody's really task oriented,
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we we can just talk tasks with them.
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We don't have to do all the formalities.
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But when somebody is new, we need to take the time to
5:53
understand their preferences. And I also think it depends who
5:57
is that new person? If I've got a new boss right,
6:00
then it would be clever of me to say, how would you, how often
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would you like us to check in with each other?
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Or how would you like me to escalate to you?
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Or when something happens and I need your decision, how would
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you like me to put that to you? So what I'm really asking is
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what, what are your preferences? What are your communication
6:20
preferences? Do you want me to just e-mail
6:22
you? Do you want me to knock on your
6:24
door? Do you want me to send a weekly
6:26
report? What, what really, how do we do
6:28
this? But it's, remember, it's perhaps
6:30
a little different. Maybe we can ask them about
6:36
their previous experiences, what worked well for them in terms of
6:39
how they were managed, What, what you know, are they the kind
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of person who likes to be delegated to?
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Are they the kind of person who needs a lot of support and
6:47
guidance? And how are we going to, how are
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we going to experiment with that?
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And, and I think the word experiment is a good one because
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let's see how this goes, right? We talk about your preferences,
6:57
my preferences. And then three weeks later we
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check back in and say, OK, did I give you enough support or am I,
7:04
do you feel I'm breathing down your neck?
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So I think we can openly talk about how am I managing you and
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how how do we each experience it.
7:13
That's really interesting because I think maybe some
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people feel pressure, especially if you're new to a leadership
7:17
role or new to a team, that you have to prove your authority and
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that it's somehow not OK to be open openly say, let's find the
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best way to do this. You have to open up a little
7:28
bit, show your vulnerabilities because you're saying to them,
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let's find the best way to work rather than just going in here
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and saying, right, I know exactly what I'm doing, it's my
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way and this is how we do it. So I guess do you think you need
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to be a little bit brave with yourself to show that kind of
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vulnerability? Perhaps, yes, but the word that
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came to me when you were just speaking was more confidence.
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Because if I am a bit insecure in myself, and I think you just
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said it, when somebody's a new leader, they feel they have to,
7:57
to show more certainty. So I think it comes down to how
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much confidence do I have in myself?
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Because if I'm very confident, I can have these conversations.
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I don't have to prove in every single conversation that I'm in
8:09
control or that I'm right. Because what does it mean to be
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right anyway? What does it mean to be in
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control? As I said before, I think it all
8:17
happens in relationship. Great leadership happens when I
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can empower others and coach others rather than just telling
8:24
them what to do. So perhaps it takes a bit of
8:27
bravery to have these conversations.
8:30
Perhaps it takes self-awareness and say, OK, I have a choice.
8:34
I can speak at them. When you speak at somebody, I
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think perhaps you speak down a little bit, even with if without
8:41
wanting it. But when you have a
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conversation, you're on par with each other and you you can open
8:46
the explore. There's no right or wrong.
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There was just curiosity about who we are as people and how we
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can best work together. So it's, that's important to
8:54
listen that that's the thing about conversation, it's two
8:58
ways, isn't it? Thank you.
9:00
Some really great advice there. That was one common issue,
9:03
though we've probably touched on a few there.
9:04
Were there any other common issues that kind of frequently
9:08
come up that you feel you could pass some advice on to
9:12
listeners? You know, the topic of
9:17
overwhelm, overworking myself is one that often comes up and it
9:22
is sometimes that there are different reasons why people
9:26
might feel overwhelmed. So OK, could be that they're
9:29
very junior and they haven't got the head around it yet.
9:32
That should iron yourself out over time.
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But I think what's more serious, if somebody is quite senior and
9:38
they have a, a, a track record of just working too much, never
9:43
getting a break, having very high expectations of themselves.
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And the underlying patterns that we that we kind of uncover when
9:52
we look at it in more detail is either perhaps a bit of wanting
9:57
to please others. So I can't really set
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boundaries, can't really set, say no, could lead into a bit of
10:03
imposter again. I feel I have to constantly
10:05
prove myself. Or it could be this idea of
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always being in control, needing to be in control.
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So I can't really delegate. It's difficult to delegate.
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I feel I have to do it all myself.
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But the end result, no matter what that underlying pattern is,
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is that I take too much on my own shoulders.
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I desperately want to share, I desperately want other people to
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help me, but I just don't really know how to make that happen.
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And so that's where the overwhelm comes from.
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And it's sad. I I actually find that quite sad
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to to see, but it's very common. When you come across people with
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this issue, what's the first kind of pieces of advice that
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you give them? I would say it again, it depends
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on which of these patterns is true for them.
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But the mood I'll often go down 1st is to put your oxygen mask
10:55
on yourself first. Because if you're running around
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and you're super stressed, it's very hard for you to gain a
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perspective and to be able to look at the situation with
11:06
perhaps new eyes and see how what can you change?
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So the first thing, put your oxygen mask on yourself.
11:12
How can you energise yourself if you can just take 10 minutes out
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during your day? Because they're very busy.
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They don't have half an hour, just 5 minutes, 10 minutes to do
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something that you know is going to give you a lot of energy to
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do something that you will find inspiring.
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Maybe it's just a walk outside listening to the birds.
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Maybe it's just doing some breathing exercises.
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Maybe it's just playing your guitar for 10 minutes.
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But that's really where I start with somebody.
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They need to start filling up their tank with a bit of of
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energy. And when they feel more
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resourceful, I think we can begin to look at what's what's
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really happening here. Because if they're really
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drained, it's very hard for them to even have the energy to look
11:56
at some deeper running patterns. OK so maybe a sensible piece of
12:01
advice perhaps and I've read around this kind of idea just
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everyday make sure you have even a micro break a few times a day
12:09
and and and a decent sized break at lunchtime if you can because
12:12
even 5 minutes away from the desk or outside can really shift
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your the way you feel I think. Yeah, I couldn't have no more.
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OK. Thank you.
12:26
So I'm kind of focusing on project leaders, but what are
12:30
the most difficult things to get right as a project leader?
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I think it is this piece about the relation and leading through
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others and not being this hero project manager.
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If we're talking more project specific, who feels that I have
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to fly in and save everything and get everything done.
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And if nobody's stepping up, then I will step up.
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And, you know, I put my Cape on and I just sort it all out and
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my, my managers and clients will love me.
13:00
And they do because we all want a, a, a hero to come and sort it
13:04
all out. But that's, that's, that's a
13:08
pitfall, right? We need to shift out of that
13:11
gear of the fixing and doing into empowering others.
13:16
How can I create other leaders? How can I coach?
13:19
So it's, I think it's the same things as we just talked about
13:21
before, but instead of telling, I need to really take that tiny
13:28
step back and create the space for others.
13:31
And that comes through having the conversation.
13:33
It comes through asking more questions.
13:36
How can we do this? How can you do that?
13:38
What support do you need from me?
13:40
It's it's a gradual process of me stepping back and allowing
13:44
others to step up and step forward.
13:47
Which I'm assuming is a more sustainable approach to
13:49
leadership anyway. So you've always got people who
13:52
who are not scared to make decisions or have some autonomy
13:56
about what they're doing, some ability to go ahead and and fix
13:59
stuff. So that sounds sensible to me.
14:02
Is that actually in the real world, is that quite, quite a
14:05
common approach or are things still relatively hierarchical?
14:09
Or is there still much of this kind of hero leadership style
14:13
going on? I see quite a lot of it and I
14:17
think there are some reasons for it.
14:19
It's because we're always up against the deadline.
14:21
There is more and more change. There is people are moving at
14:27
such pace. There is such high demand on
14:30
people. I think even, I guess unbelief
14:33
it's, it's hard to imagine there can even be more pressure on
14:36
people now than there were 5-10 years ago.
14:38
But I think that is the case. On top of that, we're dealing
14:40
with multicultural teams. We're working around the clock.
14:43
Many of the people are coaching from global organisations.
14:46
They can't, when can they ever really switch off their phone
14:50
and feel OK about it? Because if it's not the, the
14:53
team in China, that's the way it gets a team in the US.
14:56
And so I think that drives this behaviour to fix, to be on top
15:00
of it, to always be available. And it's it can be really hard
15:04
to shift out of that gear. So actually just to pick up on
15:07
that, this comes around to boundary setting as well.
15:11
If you've got any advice about how to go about setting
15:14
boundaries, even if you're yourself, you feel uncomfortable
15:19
about doing that because you feel like you should always be
15:22
available. It's a really important project.
15:24
You can't afford to drop any balls.
15:25
But for your own productivity, I guess, and sanity, how do you go
15:31
about putting boundaries in in the right way so that people
15:35
understand that this is a good thing for you to have and
15:37
they're respectful of it? Yeah, You know, it's a very
15:42
individual thing to do. Some people need fewer
15:44
boundaries than others. Some people have a, a, a bigger
15:47
bucket than others. You can, you can add more to it
15:49
before it overflows. I always say to people, you have
15:53
a choice. Some people are perfectly fine,
15:56
but those people who are not fine, you have a choice.
15:59
You need to set your own boundaries.
16:00
And, and it's really just that honest conversation where they
16:03
admit to themselves before me. They admit to themselves, I need
16:08
to sit down better boundaries. And then I talk to them about
16:11
what is OK and what is not OK because there's no need to go
16:15
from being available all the time to being too rigid.
16:18
That doesn't serve anyone either.
16:20
So it's not about, you know, logging off every day at 6:00 PM
16:23
or whatever the time is always and no exceptions that there is
16:29
space for exceptions. Maybe you have one day a week,
16:31
but you say, OK, I work late to get through my backlog or what,
16:34
whatever it is. But fundamentally, I just ask
16:37
people what is OK for you and what is not OK because everybody
16:41
knows. Now, I recently coached somebody
16:44
from from China and in China have an unbelievable work ethic.
16:51
This lady needed her first step was to lock off her computer at
16:55
midnight because she used to work till 23 PMAM.
16:59
So we just got her back to midnight, right?
17:02
I, I, I know it's, it's unbelievable, but sometimes it's
17:06
just beginning to actually start with small steps because there's
17:11
no way she could have gone from working to 3:00 AM every night
17:14
to working to 8:00 PM. That would be two, sorry, 8:00
17:18
PM that would be two big a step for her.
17:20
So we'll make small, realistic steps, one step at the time, and
17:25
also fill up our time with something appealing in our spare
17:28
time. Because if I have nothing else
17:30
to do than work, I might as well work, right?
17:34
That's a really good point. I hadn't thought of that.
17:36
Yeah. Carry on.
17:37
Yeah. So if you have an appealing
17:40
reason, if you have a really good friend, on Monday night you
17:43
go to the cinema or on Tuesday night you go to the gym with
17:46
somebody or whatever it is because there's often people who
17:50
don't have big family commitments who end up working
17:53
themselves working 2 long hours. So you need to start creating
17:58
commitments outside of work, doing something that you
18:00
generally enjoy doing. Because if you are committed to
18:03
somebody else, you're more likely to log off your computer
18:06
and gradually begin to actually find meaning outside of work as
18:10
well. We're APM, the only chartered
18:15
membership organisation for the project profession.
18:18
When you become an APM member, you'll receive the resources and
18:21
support you need to make an impact, delivering better
18:24
projects with better outcomes. Plus, you'll access exclusive
18:27
training and benefits to support your ongoing career development.
18:31
Find out how we can help you reach your potential by visiting
18:34
apm.org.uk. Because when projects succeed,
18:39
society benefits. We've been talking about the
18:44
things people get wrong, but I'd like to ask you what are the
18:47
defining characteristics of a great project leader?
18:50
So what are the secrets to the to their success that you could
18:54
share with us? Yeah, we could do the long list
18:59
and we can do the short list. Let's let's see the curated
19:02
list. Yeah, yeah.
19:04
Because my book that you referred to before, the Power
19:07
project leadership has the seven keys, right?
19:09
And the seven that I think define really good project
19:13
leadership. So let me answer this in a
19:15
different way. There are some fundamentals.
19:18
There are some fundamentals about the right level of
19:21
cognitive intelligence, the right level of having domain
19:24
knowledge. We need some context.
19:26
We need to understand a little bit about the projects we work
19:30
in and the business we work in. And we need to know enough about
19:33
project management, of course. So I, I would say these are the
19:36
fundamentals, but really the defining factor, the difference
19:40
that makes a difference between somebody who's good and somebody
19:42
who's really great. I would say it's emotional
19:44
intelligence. Oh go on, can you explain a bit
19:48
more? Because leadership is in
19:52
relation to others, as I said before, the challenges often
19:55
arise in that relationship. My team members aren't doing
19:58
what I expect them to do. I have this demanding client or
20:01
I don't know how to give feedback to this person or have
20:04
that. Conversation, well, it's the
20:07
emotional intelligence that makes me able to do that with
20:12
finesse. I don't want to be a bull in a
20:15
China shop and just go and give feedback like the Dutch would do
20:20
because they're very direct. I will have a number of
20:23
collaborators in Holland, They're very direct.
20:25
Are they? I didn't know that about Dutch
20:27
culture. So they're very direct.
20:29
I can't imagine that sits particularly well with British
20:31
people. Right.
20:33
So there was an element of adapting to our different
20:36
cultures. So we don't want to be, we don't
20:38
want to be just overly direct if that's not appropriate, nor do
20:43
we want to avoid the conversation.
20:44
We need that emotional understanding and emotional
20:49
intelligence to adapt our message to the person we're in
20:54
and to the context we're in Now. Emotion intelligence has many,
20:57
many, many aspects to it. One of them is about
21:00
self-awareness. One of them is about self
21:03
management or self regulation. So if I get frustrated, do I
21:07
show my frustration? Do I not?
21:09
What do I do with it basically. And then the whole empathy
21:12
piece, which is also part of emotion intelligence.
21:15
And we need all of these pieces in order to lead effectively in
21:18
order to go a bit deeper in our conversations in order to build
21:22
trust. Because there's so much more
21:24
research now pointing to the fact that great relationships
21:28
come from trust building. Can we show some vulnerability?
21:31
Can we have the real conversation?
21:33
Can we have the kind of trust where you can make a mistake one
21:36
day and it's still OK because we have build up that trust with
21:40
each other over a long period of time.
21:43
So all of that I think is very difficult if we do not have
21:47
emotional intelligence. But then how do you if if you're
21:51
someone who naturally doesn't have much emotional intelligence
21:54
or someone who struggles making relationships, or perhaps you're
21:57
quite introverted and find that very daunting to do all of this?
22:03
Have you got any first steps for for people that might help them?
22:09
Well, the beauty is that emotional intelligence can be
22:12
built. I think not so many people are
22:15
born with perfect self knowledge or able to self regulate.
22:20
Think about kids, they can't self regulate very well.
22:24
Empathy is something that some people are have naturally and
22:29
other people need to develop it. But we can develop it.
22:32
And for me, I know that when I qualified as a coach over 15
22:36
years ago now, I developed a lot of skills in emotional in in, in
22:41
emotional intelligence because that's required to coach.
22:44
So I would say the first step is, are people aware that they
22:51
need to improve? Do they want to improve?
22:55
Because if I'm being ignorant and I'm like, no, I'm perfect,
22:59
who cares? Listening is for whatever beep
23:03
people, then there was not much hope.
23:06
So the first step is for somebody to acknowledge,
23:08
actually, I want to learn about this.
23:10
And what do they do then? Well, they can work with a
23:14
coach, they can go on leadership programmes, they can ask for
23:16
feedback, work with the feedback.
23:19
They can begin to simply listen more, begin to ask more open
23:23
questions, begin to try to walk in other people's shoes and
23:29
really try to understand what is going on for for other people.
23:32
There's there's a lot of different steps we can take in
23:34
in building our emotional intelligence.
23:36
But good to know that it's something that can be developed.
23:39
It's not something that you're either born with or without.
23:42
There's always you're born with the level.
23:43
You can improve it if you need to, as long as you're self aware
23:46
and up for doing that. I'm thinking of people who are
23:50
project managers who are approaching a first leadership
23:54
role or really want to move into that role.
23:57
And I imagine there's a certain set of skills that take you so
24:00
far as a manager that work for that.
24:02
But then those skill sets perhaps, or some of them need to
24:04
be added to in order to become an effective leader.
24:09
For those who are project managers looking towards their
24:11
first leadership role, what advice would you give to them?
24:16
What's the difference between being a manager and actually
24:19
stepping up to become a leader? Yeah.
24:22
So we talked about emotional intelligence, which is a big
24:24
aspect of this, but I would say just to, to, to go down a
24:30
different route here. I would actually encourage
24:33
people to do a bit of a gap analysis, just to use a real
24:36
management word. And what I mean is, OK, I'm here
24:40
today. I'm a, I'm a project manager.
24:43
I, I make sure that things on, on the plan get get
24:47
accomplished. And maybe I have a this task
24:50
orientation now I want to be more, I want to lead more, I
24:54
want to have more impact. I want to build high performing
24:56
teams. What does it take to get there?
24:58
And I think that's where this gap analysis comes in.
25:01
So I would ask people, what are your strengths and what are your
25:05
weaknesses? Because focus on your strengths,
25:09
but also focus on some of the weaknesses that are holding you
25:12
back. So there's a lot of, there's
25:15
different theories here. Some people say that if you're
25:17
focusing your strengths, you're fine.
25:19
In the old days, we only had to focus on our weaknesses.
25:22
And I think in reality, we need both because I might have a
25:25
weakness that is really holding it back.
25:27
No, you're not going to improve on all your weaknesses.
25:30
You're not going to bring them all up.
25:31
That, that, that's a wasted effort.
25:33
But if I am really not good at empathising, but if I'm really
25:38
not good at giving feedback or if there's something else that I
25:41
know from from feedback that I'm really not good at and that's
25:46
holding it back, I have to focus on that and get some help
25:48
perhaps with that particular capability.
25:53
And so you can do a self-assessment and ask
25:55
yourself, what are my strengths? What are my weaknesses?
25:57
What do I think my gap, my gap is?
26:00
And you can ask other people for feedback because your own view
26:03
is just kind of, you know, your own view.
26:06
You might have some blind spots, so really make make an effort to
26:10
ask for feedback from different people and and see what what do
26:12
they feel you need to to focus on in order to step up as well.
26:16
Thanks, Suzanne. I mean, a lot of what we're
26:18
talking about is, is Doing the Inner Work, which is the title
26:22
of your latest book, How to Do the Inner Work.
26:24
Can you tell us a bit about your book and how it can help people
26:27
in their work lives? Perhaps what's the most
26:30
important message you listeners ought to take from from your
26:34
book? And obviously we recommend
26:36
people read it too, because it's a great read.
26:39
Yeah, Yeah. Thank you.
26:41
So my, my previous books that we talked about, I think they have
26:43
a lot of strategy in them, right, How to become a, a
26:46
project leader, how to go from project manager to leader.
26:49
And what I've found over the years of coaching is that some
26:52
people have some patterns that are holding them back.
26:55
Such as? What do you mean by that?
26:58
Right, such as imposter. Imposter syndrome.
27:03
Yeah, Yeah. I, I feel I'm not good enough or
27:06
I feel I always need to prove myself or something that runs
27:12
deeper. It's kind of impacting me at an
27:14
emotional level and it's impacting how I view my
27:16
relationships at work and how I bring myself to my work.
27:20
And so it was just an example, right?
27:22
Let's say lack of lack of lack of confidence or feeling like an
27:25
imposter. Now this new book is really
27:29
about bringing some of these atoms to light for an
27:32
individual. What is that's really holding me
27:35
back? Because often times we think,
27:37
well, if just that stakeholder would change, I'd be fine.
27:40
If just my boss wouldn't give me so much much work, I'd be fine.
27:44
Or we move to another role and we have exactly the same issues
27:47
show up and people know it. It's like a deja vu.
27:50
So it's almost you stepping back from blaming others.
27:54
Yeah, yeah, OK. I mean, if somebody's making a
27:58
blatant mistake or they are really annoying you, there is an
28:02
issue outside of you. But if you see the same pattern
28:05
show up and I always feel angry or activated or triggered when
28:10
somebody gives me feedback, well, maybe, you know, what is
28:13
that about? It's not about changing the
28:16
other person. It's perhaps something that I
28:18
need to understand more deeply in my own, in my own
28:21
personality. And so that's the attempt in
28:24
this book is actually to to turn the flashlight inwards with
28:28
curiosity because there's no blame.
28:30
It's just saying, yeah, what are some of the reasons that I
28:34
behave in certain ways? And how can I remove some of
28:37
those blockages? How can I, how can I become a
28:39
better version of myself if I work through some of these
28:42
exercises in the book and and and bring to light some of those
28:47
patterns that are holding you back OK?
28:49
Thanks. That sounds really fascinating.
28:51
Kind of necessary work really if you want to be as an effective
28:57
leader that you that you aspire to be.
29:00
I'm, I'm interested in talking talks about emotional
29:02
intelligence and empowering others, which leads me to ask
29:07
you a broader question about leadership and what it is to be
29:11
a leader now. And is leadership going in a
29:15
particular direction? Are there any big trends as
29:18
younger people, different generations and to the
29:20
workforce? Do you see that what people
29:23
expect from leaders is changing? And if you're an established
29:27
leader, what should you be aware of what what should you be
29:31
learning about? What should you be thinking
29:32
about in terms of your leadership style?
29:36
Yeah, I think good leadership is probably still good leadership,
29:40
but the context in which we lead is different because in the old
29:45
days, and we all know when you could turn up in the office and
29:47
you could have these conversations, but now where is
29:49
the office? You know, you're on a you're on
29:51
virtual calls with multicultural teams, different time zones, and
29:58
it's very, very fast-paced. And So what I need to do to be a
30:04
good leader and to build my high performing team is perhaps the
30:08
same as I used to, but I need to do more of everything.
30:11
Because when I show up in a room where people are sitting next to
30:14
me, I can read them differently. I can see one day if they come
30:18
in and they're not so motivated, I can see if they feel sceptical
30:24
towards an idea, perhaps I can notice it when they go to the
30:26
water cooler. I can notice that they don't
30:28
tend to to show up until I don't know I I noticed changes in that
30:34
behaviour online. I need to make a lot more effort
30:38
to understand what's going on for the team that I manage.
30:42
So and how can we do this by making things explicit, by
30:46
having explicit conversations where I ask how is it going?
30:50
How is this or how is that or where we we have that regular
30:53
con contact. And that I think requires more
30:57
of a person because it may not come as natural as being in the
31:01
office, but it's still good leadership.
31:04
I just need to do more of it and make it more explicit so that
31:07
we're on the same page and so that I really get a way to to
31:12
understand what's going on for my team members who sit far
31:14
away. OK, thank you.
31:16
What about younger people? How do you go about managing?
31:19
You know, the younger people, early 20s, I hear anecdotally
31:25
that they expect different things that have a different way
31:28
of being with bosses, perhaps. Perhaps they're more outspoken
31:32
or there's less deference or they're more unwilling to do
31:36
face to face communications. Everything has to be digital.
31:38
I mean, there's all these stereotypes.
31:40
You have to take them with a pinch of thought.
31:42
But is there anything you've heard from the leaders you've
31:44
coached about how they how they come up against kind of problems
31:49
with understanding younger people or, or, or does everyone
31:53
just get along really well? No, I, I think I would try to
31:59
avoid adding to those stereotypes and instead I would
32:02
say we need to do the same with the younger people as we do with
32:06
other people. It's just that with somebody who
32:08
is my age, who is my demographic, I might make
32:11
assumptions, whereas with younger people, I can't perhaps
32:15
make those assumptions. And so why don't we talk about
32:17
it explicitly? So what I mean is this is what
32:21
we expect from the role. What, how does that sound to
32:23
you? How do you think you're going to
32:25
go about that? So, so that we have that
32:28
conversation, we monitor each other, we check in every every
32:31
so often very regularly and we see how are you feeling
32:34
motivated by the work we're giving you because that in that
32:37
way, we avoid making assumptions about whether it is ticking the
32:41
box of the other person. I mean, sometimes what happens
32:44
is that young people expect to be able to lead grand projects
32:49
with very little experience or they just want to be fulfilled
32:53
all the time or, you know, they may have unrealistic
32:55
expectations. I'm not saying everybody does,
32:57
but that might happen. And so it's very important that
33:00
we can explain that we're here to support them, to help them
33:04
and to have that conversation all the time, an ongoing
33:07
conversation about how how we're both doing.
33:11
But that of course, there is a natural way to progress through
33:14
the company and we need to to go through some of the basics
33:18
before we can manage the big projects.
33:20
We say like wise words. We're running out of time now,
33:22
so I wanted. To.
33:25
Just check with you whether there are any other important
33:28
pieces of advice you would pass on about how to be a successful
33:31
leader that you've gleaned from people over the years that
33:35
you've been coaching them. Stay open, stay curious and be
33:41
dedicated to your personal and professional growth because
33:44
leaders grow. They don't, they don't feel, oh,
33:47
I've made it now I've I've, I've, I've arrived.
33:49
No, this things change all the time.
33:52
The context changes. Continue to stay abreast of
33:55
what's happening, listen to great podcasts, read books, get
33:58
feedback you know, and and be curious about about yourself and
34:02
others. I think that's a great recipe
34:03
for continuing to to thrive and and expand as a leader.
34:08
Suzanne, that's. A great way to end our podcast.
34:10
I want to thank you very much for your time.
34:12
Thank you for having me, it was a pleasure.
34:23
Thanks again to Suzanne for joining us and to you for
34:25
listening to the APM Podcast. Don't forget to look out for
34:28
more episodes or to rate and review us.
34:30
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34:41
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34:44
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