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Pam Smart: Another Chance at Freedom? · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:05
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Greece. Wow, murder, sex, love, illicit relationships.
0:22
Speaker 1: This story has it all, but sadly, it's not a story,
0:26
Speaker 1: It's real. The case of Pamela Smart. How can we
0:33
Speaker 1: ever forget Pamela Smart. Pan Smart was a twenty two
0:38
Speaker 1: year old high school media coordinator when she started as
0:41
Speaker 1: they call it affair, I call it statutory rape with
0:45
Speaker 1: a teen boy just fifteen at the time, who later
0:48
Speaker 1: shot and killed Smart's husband, Gregory Smart. In the last days,
0:55
Speaker 1: Pamela Smart goes to court demanding that her sentence be reduced.
1:03
Speaker 1: Needless to say, let me give you the spoiler alert
1:06
Speaker 1: on that the court could see straight through Pamela Smart's
1:12
Speaker 1: claim and this time, unlike so many other times, she
1:16
Speaker 1: wasn't wearing see through laingerie. This woman needs to be
1:20
Speaker 1: behind bars and that's where she must stay. I Nancy Grace,
1:25
Speaker 1: this is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us
1:27
Speaker 1: here at Fox Nation and Series. Yes, the court heard
1:33
Speaker 1: pam Smarts lawyers drone on and on. Having exhausted her
1:39
Speaker 1: judicial appeal options, Smart return for a third time to
1:43
Speaker 1: an elected state council seeking a sentence reduction. The five
1:48
Speaker 1: member Executive Council rejected her latest request in less than
1:54
Speaker 1: three minutes, prompting another appeal to the State Supreme Court.
2:01
Speaker 1: The justices have just dismissed Pamela Smart's petition, claiming it
2:05
Speaker 1: would violate separation of powers, the separation of powers of
2:09
Speaker 1: courts between the courts and the government. That would be
2:15
Speaker 1: the executive branch in the judicial branch. As we all know,
2:20
Speaker 1: there are three branches of government. One is executive that
2:26
Speaker 1: would be like government officials such as the president or
2:28
Speaker 1: this council. The second would be the judicial branch, which
2:33
Speaker 1: of course includes judges. The third branch is the elective branch,
2:41
Speaker 1: and that would be Congress, House of Representatives, as well
2:44
Speaker 1: as those same counterparts at state level. So the court's ruling,
2:48
Speaker 1: after yet another appeal by Pamela Smart, is that to
2:53
Speaker 1: grant her most recent appeal would be violative of the
2:58
Speaker 1: separation of powers. Why did they say that because her
3:03
Speaker 1: last appeal went to an executive branch council. All the
3:11
Speaker 1: legal mumbo jumbo aside. How in the hey are we
3:16
Speaker 1: back in court with Pamela Smart? Where did the whole
3:21
Speaker 1: thing start? Let's start at the beginning. I went into
3:24
Speaker 1: the garage and I went up to the house, and
3:29
Speaker 1: I noticed that the outside lights weren't on, and I
3:32
Speaker 1: remember thinking that that was odd because Greg usually left
3:36
Speaker 1: him on when he knew that I was going to
3:39
Speaker 1: be late. But you know, I didn't think there was
3:41
Speaker 1: anything major. I just remember thinking it was odd. I
3:45
Speaker 1: walked up the steps and I put the key in
3:49
Speaker 1: the door, and when I pushed the door open, I
3:52
Speaker 1: turned on the lake and I saw great. Well. It
3:58
Speaker 1: all happened in the manner of like not even a second.
4:01
Speaker 1: I don't think. I remember seeing things near him, like
4:07
Speaker 1: a candlestick and a pillowing, and I remember I thought.
4:14
Speaker 1: The first thing I thought was to go get help,
4:17
Speaker 1: and I said, I said Greg, Greg's name, and he didn't.
4:22
Speaker 1: He didn't answer, and I ran out. It all happened
4:25
Speaker 1: really fast. Eighteen year old Pam Wojus was a freshman
4:28
Speaker 1: in college who loved to party, and she was instantly
4:32
Speaker 1: drawn to Greg Smart. She sat next to him down
4:35
Speaker 1: on the couch and started flirting with him and twirling
4:37
Speaker 1: his hair. With his rocker haircut and boy's smile, Twenty
4:42
Speaker 1: year old Greg was just Pam's time. Greg was a
4:45
Speaker 1: great guy, and if somebody said, hey, let's go away,
4:48
Speaker 1: for the weekend, and it was Friday night he would go.
4:51
Speaker 1: He always lived like that. Greg was also known as
4:54
Speaker 1: a ladies man. Greg was seeing, as usual a bunch
4:57
Speaker 1: of other girls. A lot of the girls seemed to
4:59
Speaker 1: flock to him. But soon after Greg met Pam, he
5:02
Speaker 1: began to change his ways and settle down. Over time,
5:07
Speaker 1: it's slowly got more serious and more serious. Pam was
5:10
Speaker 1: very excited about her relationship with Greg. She used to
5:14
Speaker 1: write poems and she sent me a lot of them.
5:18
Speaker 1: When Greg surprised Pam with an engagement ring in January
5:22
Speaker 1: of nineteen eighty eight, she accepted. And that is how
5:25
Speaker 1: it all started at a party when she was just
5:27
Speaker 1: eighteen years old. How did it all end in murder?
5:34
Speaker 1: Joining me an all star panel to break it down
5:36
Speaker 1: and put it back together again. Doctor Daniel Bober Forensics psychiatrists,
5:40
Speaker 1: joining us all the way from Rome. Doctor Michelle Dupree,
5:44
Speaker 1: renowned medical examiner, author of Homicide Investigation Field Guide. Joseph
5:48
Speaker 1: Scott Morgan, forensics expert, Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State University, an
5:53
Speaker 1: author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon. Ashley Willcott, judge,
5:57
Speaker 1: trial lawyer and anchor It as Olcott dot com Right
6:01
Speaker 1: now to crime online dot Com investigative reporter Dave Matt.
6:05
Speaker 1: Dave explain to me, when Pama Smart gets home, what
6:10
Speaker 1: does she find in her home? She finds her husband
6:14
Speaker 1: of less than one year on the ground and the
6:18
Speaker 1: apartment apparently in disarray. He's on the ground what appears
6:21
Speaker 1: to be a gunshot wound to the head. Police suddenly
6:24
Speaker 1: have three suspects in the murder, seventeen year old j R.
6:29
Speaker 1: Lattimy and his friends sixteen year old Pete Randolph and
6:34
Speaker 1: sixteen year old Billy Flynn. There are kind of a
6:38
Speaker 1: rough group of kids. They had been involved in some
6:41
Speaker 1: minor crimes, but petty crime is one thing. Could they
6:45
Speaker 1: really have committed a murder? It doesn't take long for
6:48
Speaker 1: detectives to identify a possible link between the three boys
6:51
Speaker 1: and Gregg Smart his wife Pam. The teenagers are students
6:59
Speaker 1: that want a kind of high school. We're Panela Smart works.
7:03
Speaker 1: Two of the boys are students in her media course.
7:06
Speaker 1: They were making a video together. Ham Smart was the coordinator.
7:10
Speaker 1: The kids are the talent. Two of the high school
7:13
Speaker 1: students are in her class. That's a connection. You're hearing
7:17
Speaker 1: our friends at Real Crime, Real Story with Aaron Brockovich.
7:20
Speaker 1: So they're all kids, they're all teens. In Flynn, the
7:24
Speaker 1: sixteen year old reportedly was more than just a student.
7:29
Speaker 1: She sat me down in a chair. What did you say?
7:32
Speaker 1: She said, I think I'm in love with Bill? And
7:34
Speaker 1: what did you say to that? I laughed? It was ridiculous.
7:39
Speaker 1: It was ridiculous. Why would ridiculous? Because she was married,
7:43
Speaker 1: she was twenty two? What did she do when you laugh?
7:49
Speaker 1: She just kept telling me over and over again, I'm serious.
7:52
Speaker 1: So what happened after that? I'm bout a week clan
7:56
Speaker 1: as she told them, did you have any of her problem?
8:03
Speaker 1: I told Bill Pam wanted to see him. And you
8:08
Speaker 1: say about a week later she told Bill audio was
8:10
Speaker 1: a week later. I'm not positive that's when she she
8:15
Speaker 1: told me that she told him about a week later.
8:17
Speaker 1: You are hearing who I believe to be the star
8:20
Speaker 1: witness in the case, Cecilia Pierce. Now, Pam's smart, the
8:25
Speaker 1: teacher and her twinies, takes this teen girl under her wing,
8:29
Speaker 1: so to speak. But then when she says you could
8:32
Speaker 1: eat a divorce with Joe Brad, thank you serious? I
8:39
Speaker 1: thought that she was serious, but that she wouldn't do it,
8:42
Speaker 1: I have it done. Then how much? How often were
8:46
Speaker 1: you having these conversations with the defendant at this time?
8:54
Speaker 1: At first I was just like every few days and
8:58
Speaker 1: then it was every day. And what kind of days
9:01
Speaker 1: would she be talking about? What was going on? So
9:07
Speaker 1: filing what they had discussed last period, her and Bill
9:11
Speaker 1: had discussed, and what they had decided upon, things like
9:16
Speaker 1: to where they had tied back and twea dot clothes
9:19
Speaker 1: and to make it look like a burglary. Wow, that's
9:21
Speaker 1: getting very, very involved, an intricate planning, going so far
9:27
Speaker 1: as to what they would wear, what to do with
9:31
Speaker 1: their hair when the incident, the murder would take place.
9:34
Speaker 1: To Dave Matt, Crime online dot Com investigative reporter, what
9:38
Speaker 1: really links Pamela Smart to her husband Gregg's murder? Well,
9:42
Speaker 1: actually the police, with Celia Peers, they actually wired her up.
9:47
Speaker 1: She agreed to help the police because she just couldn't
9:50
Speaker 1: stand this anymore. And actually pam Smart gave her own
9:55
Speaker 1: incriminating statement. They picked it up on the wire where
9:58
Speaker 1: she actually said, if you tell the police, but you know,
10:03
Speaker 1: we're all going to be locked in the slammer time
10:19
Speaker 1: stories with Nancy Grace. For those of you just joining us,
10:25
Speaker 1: I guess we've all heard of the movie To Die For,
10:28
Speaker 1: starring the awesome Nicole Kidman as Pamela Smart, who started
10:33
Speaker 1: a quote love affair aka statutory rate with a teen
10:37
Speaker 1: boys student who she convinces to murder her husband in
10:42
Speaker 1: the last days, Pamela Smart's most recent and latest bid
10:46
Speaker 1: for sentence reduction has been a throne out why the
10:51
Speaker 1: State Attorney General's office, of course, has opposed the commutation
10:56
Speaker 1: of her sentence from the start. She's not getting out
10:59
Speaker 1: early because she has never accepted full responsibility, or basically
11:05
Speaker 1: any responsibility for the murder. So when you go before
11:10
Speaker 1: an appeals court or a parole hearing, one of the
11:13
Speaker 1: things they look for is did you admit what happened?
11:18
Speaker 1: Do you regret it is their remorse? Do you take
11:20
Speaker 1: responsibility in order to ensure that once you do get out,
11:26
Speaker 1: you won't do it again? Well, Paula Smart has yet
11:31
Speaker 1: to accept responsibility for the murder of her husband. She
11:36
Speaker 1: still blames the whole thing on others. Yes, she's earned
11:41
Speaker 1: two master's degree. Yes, she's earned two master's degrees behind bars,
11:45
Speaker 1: Yes she has tutored fellow inmates. Yes, she has been
11:48
Speaker 1: ordained a minister and as part of an inmate liaison committee.
11:53
Speaker 1: In her latest petition, she says she's sorry and she's
11:56
Speaker 1: fully rehabilitated, but according to authorities, she has never accepted responsibility.
12:07
Speaker 1: Take a listen to our friends at WMU R nine,
12:10
Speaker 1: Smart was asking the Executive counsel for a hearing where
12:13
Speaker 1: she could petition for the possibility of parole. Counselor Andrew
12:18
Speaker 1: Volinski was concerned about her lack of responsibility for what happened.
12:23
Speaker 1: If she's unable to come to terms with that, that
12:27
Speaker 1: creates concerns for me. Okay, wait a minute, come to
12:30
Speaker 1: terms with murder. Okay, we're hearing all of this, but
12:36
Speaker 1: how did it all start? How are we at this
12:41
Speaker 1: point today? Take a listen to our clip free our
12:43
Speaker 1: friends at Investigation Discovery, Pam dreamed of a career in television.
12:48
Speaker 1: She was struggling to try to find a job as
12:50
Speaker 1: a reporter, which is what she really wanted to do. Instead,
12:53
Speaker 1: she landed a job as the media services director for
12:56
Speaker 1: the local school district or. Her response abilities included making
13:01
Speaker 1: educational videos. One of the projects that she had decided
13:05
Speaker 1: to do was some kind of a documentary which would
13:09
Speaker 1: involve some of the kids in the surrounding high school,
13:12
Speaker 1: and that was going to be about self esteem. She
13:15
Speaker 1: worked closely with student volunteers, including fifteen year old Cecilia Pierce.
13:21
Speaker 1: Cecilia Pierce was pamla Smart student intern, and she became
13:25
Speaker 1: a really close friend in Confident, which was a little unusual.
13:28
Speaker 1: Long haired sophomore Billy Flynn was another volunteer. He is
13:33
Speaker 1: an aspiring rock musician. He plays electric guitar, and he's
13:37
Speaker 1: got long hair. He is exactly what her husband Greg
13:42
Speaker 1: used to be. I'm going to go to a special
13:44
Speaker 1: guest joining us today from Oxygen dot com true crime
13:48
Speaker 1: author Hell and the Heartland whoa murder and math in
13:52
Speaker 1: the case of two missing girls. I'm on it, Jackson Miller,
13:55
Speaker 1: thanks for being with us. Tell me about Pam Smart
14:00
Speaker 1: and husband Greg smarts relationship. And it's kind of freaky
14:06
Speaker 1: that she then takes a liking to a boy, a
14:09
Speaker 1: teen boy in her class at school. That's just like Greg,
14:14
Speaker 1: except a newer model. I'm gonna call in a shrink
14:17
Speaker 1: on that. But tell me, jack Smiller, who is Pam Smart?
14:22
Speaker 1: How did she grow up? Where is this place, Darry,
14:25
Speaker 1: New Hampshire, and who is Greg smart. Well, it's funny
14:28
Speaker 1: that you use the word story book before, because Derry,
14:30
Speaker 1: New Hampshire is that story book setting. It's that full
14:33
Speaker 1: foliage in New England. It's the church people's poking out.
14:37
Speaker 1: It's a town of like thirty four thousand. Oh wait, hey,
14:40
Speaker 1: you know what you just made me think of. Sure,
14:42
Speaker 1: you know those calendars that have Jackie shaking her hand. Yes,
14:46
Speaker 1: there's calendars, and it's a nature and outdoors and now
14:50
Speaker 1: hosts a beautiful fall foliage picture and then they'll have
14:55
Speaker 1: a spire poking up with a cross on the top
14:59
Speaker 1: of a church spire in the middle of it. It's
15:01
Speaker 1: just gorgeous. That's what you made me think of, jack
15:04
Speaker 1: That's exactly what it was. And you know, it's it's
15:06
Speaker 1: really nice because it's only like forty five minutes away
15:08
Speaker 1: from Boston, so it's a nice alternative for people who
15:11
Speaker 1: don't want the hustle bustle of the city. But it's
15:13
Speaker 1: just like it's just like that that that story book
15:15
Speaker 1: setting what you see on TV. It's it's that perfect
15:18
Speaker 1: New England image. In fact, Robert Frost was from there.
15:20
Speaker 1: I believe really. Yeah, yeah, it's it's really true. How
15:23
Speaker 1: big of a town is dairy need Hapshire. So it's
15:26
Speaker 1: a it's about thirty four thousand people and it's right
15:29
Speaker 1: in between Manchester and Salem. And like I said, it's
15:33
Speaker 1: it's it's not the big city, but it's close enough
15:35
Speaker 1: to the big city. Um. It's really just like the
15:37
Speaker 1: perfect all American town. And um yeah that's where That's
15:42
Speaker 1: where Greg and Pam were and they had this this
15:44
Speaker 1: rock and roll marriage. It was it was kind of
15:47
Speaker 1: perfect in a way. And I say that as a
15:48
Speaker 1: metal head myself, of course, but it was that perfect headbanging,
15:52
Speaker 1: you know, rock and roll. They had a dog named Halen,
15:55
Speaker 1: you know, very very rock and roll, but it seemed
15:58
Speaker 1: very loving on the outside. Okay, how I'm just drinking
16:01
Speaker 1: out of the fire hydrant here. It's just too much,
16:04
Speaker 1: too fast. I'm sorry. Okay, the quote perfect head banger
16:09
Speaker 1: rock and roll marriage, you know, I hadn't really thought
16:12
Speaker 1: about it like that. Let me go to you first,
16:16
Speaker 1: Karen Stark, New York Psychologists joining us in Manhattan today. Karen, I,
16:22
Speaker 1: first of all, I don't think I've ever seen anyone
16:25
Speaker 1: that reminds me of my husband in his youth. But
16:30
Speaker 1: that's kind of freaky. It's like thinking considering replacing your
16:36
Speaker 1: husband with a younger version of your husband. What does
16:42
Speaker 1: that mean? You know what makes me think of Nancy?
16:45
Speaker 1: Not a younger David, but somebody who isn't committed to
16:51
Speaker 1: the relationship, is not really capable of attaching having commitments.
16:58
Speaker 1: And when we think about younger version, we're not talking
17:02
Speaker 1: about somebody who's a few years younger. We're talking about
17:06
Speaker 1: a minor, which is totally unacceptable. That's like pedophilia. Well,
17:13
Speaker 1: you know, if you all weren't awake before you hear pedophilia,
17:17
Speaker 1: you're awake now. Kathleen Murphy, just to put it ephemistically,
17:22
Speaker 1: you have seen your share of divorce cases, have you ever?
17:26
Speaker 1: Of course, we always hear of men, no offense, men
17:30
Speaker 1: marrying a younger woman. Don't usually hear of women marrying
17:34
Speaker 1: a younger guy, dumping their husbands for a younger guy.
17:37
Speaker 1: But I guess it does happen. But a long story short,
17:39
Speaker 1: Kathleen Murphy, and all the divorces you've seen, have you
17:42
Speaker 1: seen a woman replace her husband for a younger version
17:46
Speaker 1: of the husband. Are you asking me if I've seen
17:49
Speaker 1: a woman replace their husband for a child. Never, because
17:53
Speaker 1: that's exactly what Pam's I'm asking you, have you seen
17:57
Speaker 1: a woman replace her husband with a younger version. I
18:00
Speaker 1: don't mean just a younger guy. I mean somebody that looks, talks, acts,
18:04
Speaker 1: walks like the husband, but younger. That's pretty rare. I
18:08
Speaker 1: don't care that a lot, right, I see them going
18:10
Speaker 1: to the opposite everybody. Jack's joining us from oxygen dot com. Jacks.
18:15
Speaker 1: What exactly was her position at the high school? So
18:18
Speaker 1: Pam worked at Winnikin at high school where she was
18:21
Speaker 1: a media director. She did have high school interns working
18:24
Speaker 1: with her, including Cecilia Pierce. And yeah, she was a
18:28
Speaker 1: media director. She was an employee. She was about twenty
18:30
Speaker 1: two years old, and that's where she met Billy Flint. Now,
18:33
Speaker 1: what does media director be? Because I understand she went
18:38
Speaker 1: off on a tangent making some type of a documentary
18:41
Speaker 1: with the students. Is that correct? Yeah, she made a
18:44
Speaker 1: documentary about self esteem. I think she was trying to
18:47
Speaker 1: improve esteem with her students, which is kind of ironic
18:51
Speaker 1: given the whole situation, but that's what she did. She
18:53
Speaker 1: would make these videos and involve the students very first
18:58
Speaker 1: high profile cases involved a sex affair. As they call
19:02
Speaker 1: it again, I can't say enough. It's statutory rape between
19:05
Speaker 1: a school staff member and a student. Then Joyce Maynard
19:10
Speaker 1: wrote to Die For, drawing from the Smart case. Then
19:14
Speaker 1: that inspired a film same name, to Die For, starring
19:20
Speaker 1: Nicole Kidman and Joaquin Phoenix. Okay, the killer William Flynn
19:27
Speaker 1: and three other teams cooperated with prosecutor, struck a deal,
19:31
Speaker 1: and they serve shorter sentences. They have already been released now.
19:36
Speaker 1: Most recently, several of Smart supporters travel to New Hampshire
19:40
Speaker 1: to hear the court discuss the case. They all wore
19:42
Speaker 1: pink t shirts with the words enough is enough on them.
19:45
Speaker 1: You know what would really help if they could talk
19:47
Speaker 1: her into accepting responsibility. Tell me, Dave Mack, what happens
19:52
Speaker 1: at trial with all the other co conspirators, the boyfriend,
19:57
Speaker 1: his friends, the prosecution cut deals with just about with
20:00
Speaker 1: everybody except Pam Smart. At trial, Billy Flynn testified, as
20:04
Speaker 1: did Patrick Randall, Jael A lot of me. They all
20:07
Speaker 1: testified as to their specific roles in this crime, and
20:10
Speaker 1: they all had deals negotiated with the prosecution because ultimately
20:15
Speaker 1: the prosecution determined early on if not for Pam Smart
20:18
Speaker 1: orchestrating all of this, it would not have happened. She's
20:21
Speaker 1: even admitted as much that it was her relationship with
20:24
Speaker 1: Billy that cost Greg's life. It's just a matter of
20:27
Speaker 1: what the police have indicated, they've built their case around,
20:30
Speaker 1: is that she was the instigator of everything. And at trial,
20:35
Speaker 1: Billy Flynn was an incredibly credible witness. He cried on
20:39
Speaker 1: the stand and I'll never forget actually seeing him when
20:42
Speaker 1: the prosecutors said what was what did you say? And
20:45
Speaker 1: he said, right before I shot him, I pointed the
20:48
Speaker 1: gun at his head and I said, God, please forgive me,
20:50
Speaker 1: and it pulled the trigger. So Billy Flynn admits to
20:55
Speaker 1: what happened. Take a listen. Are the man who spent
20:58
Speaker 1: decades in prison or his role in the sex and
21:01
Speaker 1: murder scandal that rocked it in the Hampshire community is
21:04
Speaker 1: an a freeman? All of this unfolding in the overnight hours.
21:07
Speaker 1: Billy Flynn was just sixteen years old when he and
21:09
Speaker 1: a friend killed his high school teacher's husband. He was
21:12
Speaker 1: granted parole in March. A rather bizarre scene overnight at
21:20
Speaker 1: the prison where Flynn spent the last twenty five years
21:22
Speaker 1: of his life. What you heard was other inmates cheering
21:26
Speaker 1: as a convicted killer left by the back door. At
21:29
Speaker 1: his parole hearing. Flynn apologized to the family of Greg Smart.
21:33
Speaker 1: He says he hopes to find a job after earning
21:35
Speaker 1: his degree while in prison, but he knows that will
21:38
Speaker 1: be difficult. Dave Matt Billy fan Leigh's prison. He's the
21:42
Speaker 1: trigger person. He admitted to what he did. What did
21:48
Speaker 1: the co conspirator do? What was his part? What did
21:51
Speaker 1: the others do? Not? Pam Smart. Patrick Randall was sentenced
21:55
Speaker 1: to the same thing as Billy Flynn. He was right
21:57
Speaker 1: there inside the home with Billy Flynn when it took place,
22:01
Speaker 1: when the shooting occurred, and he got the same type
22:05
Speaker 1: of treatment that Billy Flynn got. Now, they did have
22:09
Speaker 1: a co conspirator who was the getaway driver. His name
22:12
Speaker 1: was Vance Ladimy. He was sentenced to life in prison
22:15
Speaker 1: as an accomplice and he was let out of jail
22:18
Speaker 1: several years ago. He wasn't sentenced to the same thing.
22:21
Speaker 1: They did have one of the co conspirator that was
22:23
Speaker 1: Raymond Fowler. He actually just waited in the car. Okay,
22:26
Speaker 1: he was there with him again. Two boys went inside,
22:29
Speaker 1: Billy and Patrick Vance and Raymond stayed in the car,
22:32
Speaker 1: but they were all part of this conspiracy. Raymond Fowler
22:37
Speaker 1: was charged with conspiracy and attempted burglary and he was
22:40
Speaker 1: sentenced to prison as well, but he was also released
22:43
Speaker 1: back many years ago. So while we hear the boyfriend
22:48
Speaker 1: as we call him, admitting that he said God forgive
22:52
Speaker 1: me and then pulls a trigger, he admits that what
22:55
Speaker 1: about Pam Smart Dave Mack? Has she ever admitted she
23:00
Speaker 1: was part of the conspiracy to kill her husband? No,
23:03
Speaker 1: you know, the only thing she's even come close to
23:05
Speaker 1: admitting in terms of guilt is she actually and this
23:09
Speaker 1: is a real problem, She's never admitted her role. She's
23:12
Speaker 1: never admitted what they proved in court beyond the shadow
23:15
Speaker 1: of a doubt. Her only comment, and this is what
23:18
Speaker 1: she says, by and this is a direct quote, although
23:20
Speaker 1: I never wanted nor asked mister Flynn to murder Greg.
23:23
Speaker 1: I will forever carry the blame and guilt. And that's
23:28
Speaker 1: the one statement from her that has a you know,
23:31
Speaker 1: where she claims that, yeah, she's guilty, but not for
23:34
Speaker 1: asking him to do it. She's guilty because she had
23:36
Speaker 1: a relationship with Billy Flynn. As a matter of fact,
23:38
Speaker 1: listen to Pam Smart and day after day after game,
23:44
Speaker 1: just as negativity and unchanced about me and tearing me apart.
23:52
Speaker 1: I think that I'm not the defense shut down and
23:59
Speaker 1: be come from a family where we learned to deal
24:03
Speaker 1: with whatever problems happened by just remaining strong and expanding
24:09
Speaker 1: strong and not being like weak and wiles, so to speak,
24:13
Speaker 1: over whatever happened. I'm more of a private person what
24:16
Speaker 1: I deal with my own pain, on own emotion. So
24:21
Speaker 1: for me to be only twenty two years old attempts
24:23
Speaker 1: to be twenty four at the time and have what
24:27
Speaker 1: I thought was my whole future with him just completely
24:32
Speaker 1: obliterated and having to deal at such a young age
24:36
Speaker 1: with funeral and weight, and then the fact that Bill
24:42
Speaker 1: fin was arrested and I had relationship to the parent,
24:45
Speaker 1: and then finding out that it looked like he did
24:49
Speaker 1: it or his friends did it, and then I was arrested.
24:52
Speaker 1: It was just that one thing after another after another,
24:55
Speaker 1: and I think part of my being able to survive
24:59
Speaker 1: with me being completely shut Wow. Okay, so it's all
25:04
Speaker 1: about her. To doctor Daniel Bober, forensic psychiatrists, joining us.
25:09
Speaker 1: Even now, it's still all about how this affected her life,
25:14
Speaker 1: how her future was quote obliterated. Not once. Do you
25:17
Speaker 1: hear her talk about the victim, Greg, Of course yes,
25:22
Speaker 1: because she's a malignant narcissist. All she cares about is herself,
25:26
Speaker 1: her fame, her recognition. That's what it was about all
25:29
Speaker 1: the time, and that's what it's about now. Okay, it's
25:31
Speaker 1: not just that. Listen to this, Pam Smart in her
25:34
Speaker 1: own words, you could not for anything but the journey
25:38
Speaker 1: was doing. Was reading a transcript but we don't even
25:43
Speaker 1: know her how transcribe from their boat, and as I
25:50
Speaker 1: was to hear pieces of it and I was reading
25:54
Speaker 1: their accommodation, but on the page, I was honesting that
25:57
Speaker 1: there were things that were attributed to me that it
26:01
Speaker 1: was actually hear talking on things that were attendited to learn.
26:05
Speaker 1: It was actually me talking because our voices sounded similar
26:09
Speaker 1: on me because they were so horrible. And after what
26:12
Speaker 1: happened too, is that when you have a conversation, even
26:15
Speaker 1: like that I'm having with you right now, you're interjecting
26:18
Speaker 1: in my conversation saying right, yes, that's what we do
26:23
Speaker 1: when we have conversation. Right on the paper, like she's saying, oh,
26:29
Speaker 1: so you wanted Great dead? And then I say yeah,
26:33
Speaker 1: but that's that's not how the conversation was going. It
26:37
Speaker 1: wasn't a response to necessarily whatever, you just go. It
26:42
Speaker 1: was just a natural course of listening to a person
26:45
Speaker 1: and saying yeah, okay. I don't think I would even
26:49
Speaker 1: say yeah okay if someone mentioned I want my husband dead,
26:53
Speaker 1: which of course I don't, not until I renew that
26:57
Speaker 1: life insurance policy. But aside from that, what a bunch
27:01
Speaker 1: of bs. All this time later, she's still attacking the
27:07
Speaker 1: transcript and so you know what that means. That means
27:11
Speaker 1: that that is what convicted her. That's what she's angry about.
27:15
Speaker 1: To doctor Daniel Bober forensic psychiatrists. All this time later,
27:19
Speaker 1: she's still talking about the transcripts of the taped conversation
27:25
Speaker 1: she was having with Cecilia Pierce about how it was wrong.
27:29
Speaker 1: Does she not remember the jury heard it for themselves,
27:32
Speaker 1: they were reading it, And not only that, Cecilia Pierce
27:36
Speaker 1: testified and said what they talked about and what happened
27:41
Speaker 1: then the tapes came into evidence. So what does that mean,
27:45
Speaker 1: doctor Bober. She's still festering over the taps and she's
27:51
Speaker 1: still not admitting that she orchestrated her husband's murder. Well,
27:56
Speaker 1: I think, you know, I think she feels obviously betrayed.
28:00
Speaker 1: But you know, it's sort of one of those what
28:01
Speaker 1: about is m's like, well, yeah, you're saying I did this,
28:04
Speaker 1: but what about this? This is what this person did
28:06
Speaker 1: to me. So again, it's all about her, and that's
28:08
Speaker 1: the focus, all about her time stories with Nancy Grace.
28:28
Speaker 1: Pam Smart. Supporters say, and I quote, Pamela is like
28:32
Speaker 1: an icon in a sense, meaning she has life with
28:35
Speaker 1: no parole and when things are tough, you remember Pamela. Okay,
28:40
Speaker 1: that was said by supporter Santiago, who was also behind
28:45
Speaker 1: bars and did time with Pamela's Smart. Her name Vanessa Santiago.
28:51
Speaker 1: But I don't go along with that. When times are
28:54
Speaker 1: tough for me, I don't remember Pamela Smart, all right.
28:58
Speaker 1: Think of my mom and dad, Dad, who kept going
29:01
Speaker 1: when times are really tough for us. I think of
29:05
Speaker 1: christ I think of other people throughout history that have
29:11
Speaker 1: persevered although they were faced with seemingly insurmountable obstacles. But
29:18
Speaker 1: I certainly don't think of Pamela Smart when I try
29:24
Speaker 1: to find strength to persevere, take a listen to our
29:27
Speaker 1: friends at Real Crime Investigation Discovery. Less than forty eight
29:31
Speaker 1: hours after finding her husband murdered, Pam phones local TV
29:35
Speaker 1: crime reporter Bill Spencer. Pamela's smart calls me and asks
29:40
Speaker 1: me to interview, which completely just blows me away and
29:46
Speaker 1: everybody else. When Spencer arrives for the interview, he's stunned
29:50
Speaker 1: by Pam's appearance a little over twenty four hours after
29:56
Speaker 1: a murder. The wife doesn't greet you dressed to the teeth,
30:00
Speaker 1: make a perfect hair perfect. He's even more stunned by
30:04
Speaker 1: Pam's strange behavior. One year ago today we were married
30:08
Speaker 1: right about this, you know this time. One of the
30:10
Speaker 1: first things that Pamela says is it's going to be
30:14
Speaker 1: our one year wedding anniversary in a couple of days.
30:17
Speaker 1: How would it be if I go into the refrigerator
30:19
Speaker 1: because I've got the top layer of our wedding cake
30:21
Speaker 1: and I could go pull that out, you could get
30:23
Speaker 1: some b rolled and he's doing that, and wouldn't that
30:25
Speaker 1: wouldn't that make an emotional poignant moment in your story?
30:30
Speaker 1: And I was like, holy cats, this girl is helping
30:35
Speaker 1: me produce the story she's trying to She's trying to
30:37
Speaker 1: produce the news story. Jack's miller. I remember when my
30:43
Speaker 1: fiance Keith was murdered just before our wedding, and I
30:48
Speaker 1: remember I couldn't even think straight. I just wanted to
30:56
Speaker 1: go out into a forest and how I just I
31:01
Speaker 1: can't even form sentences. Did you hear what the news
31:07
Speaker 1: producer just said? Within less than forty eight hours after
31:11
Speaker 1: the murder, Pam Smart's on the phone trying to do
31:16
Speaker 1: a lead story. I wish you could see my face
31:19
Speaker 1: right now. My jaw is on the floor because I've
31:21
Speaker 1: never heard that before. This is the first time I'm
31:24
Speaker 1: hearing that, and it's I'm having a total WTF moment here,
31:27
Speaker 1: Like what is that? What is what is going on?
31:30
Speaker 1: It's diabolical because she knows. Oh gosh, I don't even
31:35
Speaker 1: have words. I don't. It's shocking, It's absolutely shocking. It's amazing.
31:40
Speaker 1: Karen start jump in, Well, you know, I'm not the
31:43
Speaker 1: least bit surprised. Think about it. Nancy. She's describing how
31:48
Speaker 1: she feels about this guy, and she says, well, you know,
31:51
Speaker 1: but I'm married. She doesn't say he's fifteen. She says, well,
31:55
Speaker 1: I'm married, her morals are correct, she doesn't know what
31:58
Speaker 1: she's talking about, and all she's thinking about now, narcissistically,
32:03
Speaker 1: is that she's going to be in front of a
32:04
Speaker 1: camera and let's get the best story we could possibly get.
32:08
Speaker 1: I'm not surprised at all. I'm not shocked by this.
32:12
Speaker 1: It's all about drama. She's young in her head and
32:16
Speaker 1: she's not thinking about the loss of her husband. Obviously
32:20
Speaker 1: not at all well. He goes quickly from high school
32:24
Speaker 1: whisperings in the hall about a sex affair with a
32:26
Speaker 1: teacher to ballistics listen. Local parent, forty five year old
32:32
Speaker 1: Vance Ladimy, claims he has information about a murder. It's
32:36
Speaker 1: very concerned because he thinks his son may be involved
32:38
Speaker 1: in a homicide. Ladomy says that his seventeen year old
32:42
Speaker 1: son Jr. And two of his friends have been talking
32:45
Speaker 1: about committing a murder. This Aladomy gets to find out
32:49
Speaker 1: that the gun that was supposed to use was a
32:51
Speaker 1: thirty eight. He owns a thirty eighth. He goes and
32:56
Speaker 1: checks to see whether his gun is in fact still
32:58
Speaker 1: where he thought of what's supposed to be ol. He
33:01
Speaker 1: opens his dresser. He takes a look at this firearm,
33:05
Speaker 1: he says, I'll wait a second. I didn't clean this,
33:09
Speaker 1: why is it clean? Now? The gun is sent out
33:14
Speaker 1: for ballistics testing. When the results come back, police are astonished.
33:19
Speaker 1: The single bullet that killed Greg Smart was fired from
33:22
Speaker 1: Ladimeese gun train out to Chris Buyer's forearm. Police chief
33:26
Speaker 1: now PI and polygrapher Chris Buyers. I think that a
33:31
Speaker 1: lot of people don't get and they shouldn't. They're civilians.
33:36
Speaker 1: Why should they know this that a ballistics match is
33:40
Speaker 1: just as positive as a fingerprint a human fingerprint. Explain, Yeah,
33:46
Speaker 1: every firearm is different. The barrels has grooves and spiraling
33:53
Speaker 1: in it, and when the projectile leaves the muzzle of
33:58
Speaker 1: that firearm, it leaves an imprint that matches only to
34:02
Speaker 1: that firearm. So, like you say, it's just like the
34:04
Speaker 1: human fingerprint, there's only one of those that are going
34:07
Speaker 1: to match up. And so it's easy when you have
34:10
Speaker 1: that projectile to come back, find that firearm, shoot some
34:14
Speaker 1: rounds through it and compare it and know that that
34:16
Speaker 1: is the firearm that that was fired from. Always wished
34:19
Speaker 1: I had a video to show jarars. When guns are
34:24
Speaker 1: actually made, they're made of boiling hot lead, and when
34:33
Speaker 1: the barrel cools down, there are drippings and irregularities on
34:39
Speaker 1: the inside of the barrel, the inside of the barrel,
34:44
Speaker 1: and they harden and they can never be changed. So
34:47
Speaker 1: when a bullet hurdles down that barrel so fast, it
34:54
Speaker 1: leaves markings on the bullet, scars, scratches that no other
35:00
Speaker 1: gun can leave. So when you find the gun in question,
35:05
Speaker 1: you take a bullet and you go to the crime
35:08
Speaker 1: lab and you fire it into a tub of water
35:10
Speaker 1: or a pillow, and then you take your known bullet
35:13
Speaker 1: that you just fired and the bullet from the body
35:17
Speaker 1: or the scene. You look at them under a microscope
35:20
Speaker 1: and you can see the exact same squiggles or markings
35:25
Speaker 1: on the two bullets. That is how you do it, right, Chris, Absolutely,
35:29
Speaker 1: that's exactly how it works. Well, amazingly there was more
35:34
Speaker 1: evidence Jack's miller. What do you think was the single
35:38
Speaker 1: most damning evidence at trial? Well, I think it was
35:42
Speaker 1: two things. I think it was Cecilia Pierce wearing a
35:45
Speaker 1: wire to get all the information that Pam divulged to her.
35:49
Speaker 1: And I think it was Billy Flynn copping to a
35:51
Speaker 1: plea deal in exchange for his testimony. I think that
35:53
Speaker 1: those were the biggest factors. And what exactly was Billy Flynn,
35:59
Speaker 1: the teen boy lover? What was his testimony, Jacks, So
36:04
Speaker 1: he really he said everything. He was in this illicit
36:08
Speaker 1: relationship with Pam. She was telling him that Greg was abusive.
36:15
Speaker 1: She was afraid that if she tried to divorce him
36:17
Speaker 1: or leave him, that he would take the dog and
36:18
Speaker 1: take the money and take the furniture. So that's why
36:22
Speaker 1: he did what he did. Phil Flann was actually fifteen
36:26
Speaker 1: at the time. Jackson Miller the You hear Pam Smart's
36:30
Speaker 1: mother insisting that these photos that came into trial were innocent.
36:34
Speaker 1: They were taken for a modeling contest, but they came
36:39
Speaker 1: into evidence. Isn't it true? The prosecution says these elicit
36:44
Speaker 1: photos taken by Pam Smith, by Pam Smart were given
36:47
Speaker 1: to Bill Flamm the teen boy. Yeah, you know, I
36:51
Speaker 1: know that that there were the photos. I know that
36:54
Speaker 1: they had watched some sexually charged films together. I mean,
36:58
Speaker 1: it was very clear that she was producing the child essentially,
37:01
Speaker 1: And yeah, that was one of the hugest factors. And
37:04
Speaker 1: how she got this young boy to kill for her,
37:08
Speaker 1: I mean, she can say no no, no, until she's
37:11
Speaker 1: blue in the face. But then when the jury sees
37:14
Speaker 1: the photos she's sending this team boy, there's really no
37:18
Speaker 1: question in her mind, in their minds, she set out
37:21
Speaker 1: to seduce the boy. That's child molestation, and then what
37:25
Speaker 1: else would she do? That was the question for the jury.
37:28
Speaker 1: Was no big surprise when pam Smart was convicted, But
37:32
Speaker 1: what is a surprise is that even to this day,
37:35
Speaker 1: she refuses to accept responsibility. Well, Pamela Smart's bid for
37:40
Speaker 1: a community sentence has been rejected, but don't count Pamela
37:45
Speaker 1: Smart out. We ain't seen the last of Pamela Smart.
37:51
Speaker 1: Mark my words, Nancy Grace Crime Story signing off Goodbye Friend,