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The Thriving Christian Artist (with Matt Tommey) · The Daily Writer

• 0:05
  SPEAKER_00: Hey friends, this is Kent Sanders from Inkwell and Ghostwriting.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to episode 155 of the Smart Business Writing Podcast.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_00: This is a show that helps you grow your business, amplify your authority, and increase your impact through the power of writing.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks so much for joining me on today's episode.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_00: Let's begin with a few questions.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_00: Do you feel like you've lost your way as a writer or an artist?
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_00: Are you stuck in your creative life and need some inspiration?
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_00: Are you looking for practical advice on navigating doubt and fear, dealing with critics, figuring out your priorities, and taking control of your time?
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_00: Well, if you answered yes to any of these questions, then you're going to definitely enjoy this episode.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_00: I recently had the privilege of appearing on Matt Tommy's Thriving Christian Artists podcast, and we decided that it would be fun to do a joint interview and use this conversation on both of our podcasts.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_00: I had a blast talking with Matt and can't wait for you to hear this episode, where mostly we talk about topics from my last book, which was called The Artist's Toothcase.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_00: Well, if you don't know Matt Tommy, you need to stop this episode right now and do a couple of different things.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_00: I know it's weird for me to say stop my show and go listen to his, but I genuinely mean that because it's just really good.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_00: So the first thing you need to do is to subscribe to Matt's podcast, which I've already mentioned.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_00: Second, you need to check out some of Matt's books, which include fantastic titles such as Creativity According to the Kingdom, Create It to Thrive, and Unlocking the Heart of the Artist.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_00: Then third, make sure and check out Matt's website, which is mattomymentoring.com, and that's Matt with two T's.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_00: And Tommy, it's spelled T-O-M-M-E-Y, Matt TommyMentoring.com.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_00: He has tons of great resources for artists and creatives.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_00: And even though I know this is a business running podcast, there's a lot of things that he talks about which are directly applicable to the things that you're doing as a writer and as a business person.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_00: Matt is sort of like equal parts uh creative and artist, and also equal parts like business and marketing.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_00: And I love that combination.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_00: He's such a sharp guy and so much fun and so kind.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I just loved being on his uh being on his podcast.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm thrilled to share this episode with you today.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_00: So after the episode, make sure and check out the show notes at KentSanders.net slash 155.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_00: All right, let's get to the conversation with Matt Tommy.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_01: Well, hey there, everybody.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_01: I'm so glad that you're with me today.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_01: I've got my new friend with me, Kent Sanders, who is an incredible author that I've had the pleasure of reading one of his books, uh, podcaster, college professor, musician.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_01: Kent, man, I'm so glad you're with me today.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks, Matt.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_00: This is a major honor.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for having me on the show.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_00: I appreciate it.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_01: We were talking earlier off camera, and I said, I can't believe that we've not met before.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_01: Because when I started reading some of your work and hearing your heart, I was like, dude, we carry so much of the same art.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_01: And so I'm really excited to be able to introduce you to my audience and and all of that.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_01: But uh, you've been in this a while, right?
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_00: I have.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_00: I actually I started out as uh guitar player in church when I was a kid, you know, the song leader whenever whenever that terminology was was in vogue, you know, song leader or music leader.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_00: And then when I went to college, I actually intended on being a preacher, uh, which is surprising to me because I was really, really terrible at it.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I'm I'm shocked nobody tried to talk me out of that somewhere along the way.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_00: And then got into worship arts ministry and did that for a while.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_00: And then about 15 years ago in 2000, oh, I guess it's 16 years.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_00: This is 2020, isn't it?
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_00: So back in 2004, became a college professor at a small school in St.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_00: Louis where I've been ever since then, teaching worship arts and communications and some different things like that.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_00: And then a few years ago, started to write more and do blogging and podcasting and so forth.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_00: So, like we were talking about before you started the recording, it's all kind of a journey and different things morph along the way.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, I I love all this stuff.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_00: I'm super excited about the things that you're doing and your message and your books.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_00: And wow, it's just it's so inspiring to see what you've been able to accomplish.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm grateful to be a really, really tiny part of what you're doing here on the show today.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I hope this is the first of of many opportunities we get to connect.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_01: But I I can so relate to your story because I felt a call to ministry early on as well, and yet was very creative.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_01: My mom was a choir director for a hundred years, and we were Methodists, grew up Methodist church, and so I went that normal path.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_01: I went to Emory University and got in, you know, to the Candler School of Theology and was going down that road of becoming, you know, a full-time pastor and that sort of thing.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_01: And something inside of me was just like, this is not the the route.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_01: I've got something for you, but this is not it.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_01: But I think for a lot of us as creative, especially back then, you know, mid-90s or whatever.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I I don't know that there was a lot of uh people out there that had a context.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't have a context for what it looked like to be a Christian and really fulfilling what God has for your life and doing that outside of the local church.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_00: Correct, correct.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_01: And so that for me was a really kind of confusing time.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_01: And yet the more I, you know, stepped out of that, that's kind of when I began to find the the real juice, if you will, in my life.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_01: And it sounds like for you too that that you know, you've been able to really find a lot of uh desire and inspiration and really fulfillment in in both serving the local church, but also stepping outside the local church as well.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_00: And and I love the local church.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_00: I love pastors.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_00: My heart is always going to be with the local church, no question.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I I've been a Christian pretty much my whole life, but there does come a time, and I think most people who are involved in worship arts and ministry, specifically as staff people, probably would relate to this idea of there comes a point at which you you just get kind of bored of the routine.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_00: You know, church life has very much a root routine to it.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_00: No matter what your denomination is or what sort of stripe of a Christian that you are, you know, there's Christmas stuff and then there's sometimes choir stuff.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_00: If your church has a choir, there's uh of course every Sunday, you know, you have or every weekend you have services.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_00: And I think there comes a point at which it's very, very exciting.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_00: And then after maybe a few years or after a decade of doing that, you kind of feel like, you know, I I need some new challenges creatively.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_00: And every artist is going to want new challenges and new opportunities.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes when you're confined to using your art just in a local church context, those opportunities are pretty limited.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_00: So that's where I found myself, and that's what I have appreciated so much about teaching at a college is there's lots of different opportunities to express yourself there creatively.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_00: And I've been fortunate because I teach and actually at a really, really tiny college.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_00: Less than 100 students were growing, which is going against the trend.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_00: You know, most colleges are shrinking.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_00: Ours is actually uh growing to a degree, which I'm thankful for.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_00: But I feel very blessed because our school administrators let me shift out of that worship arts role into more of a communications and media type of role, right?
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_00: Which a lot of schools wouldn't let you do.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_00: So I I will forever be grateful to my school for letting me make a pivot in my desire to teach some different courses and and just explore some different creative opportunities.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, absolutely.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I think for a lot of artists, especially I mean, I really believe God is raising up, you know, this movement of artists all over the world.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_01: And I think for for those who get reintroduced to that concept that, you know, God has got a design for your life, a purpose as a creative person, and and that happens in the context of of their faith community, that's incredible.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_01: But so many times, while that is an inspiring time for them, that can also be a limiting time for them because they may not see a context for their creativity outside the local church.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_01: So how do you how do you help?
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_01: And and just so y'all know, we hadn't planned this, we're just flowing.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_00: So it's all good.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_00: I love it.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_01: It's all good, but how how do you help the creatives that you're working with, Kent, um, have a context to both serve the local body with what God's given them creatively, and yet at the same time have a context for hey, there may be something that God's got for me also in the marketplace as well.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I look at it in terms of well, I guess there's different ways to to parse that and look at that, but I try to challenge people to do things that scare them.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_00: And for me, uh a long time I was scared of the business world.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_00: And I use that term the business world.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_00: I know that sounds really generic and that encompasses a whole bunch of different things, but I was scared at anything having to do with quote unquote business because I'd always been involved in education and always been involved in in church leadership ministry.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_00: But to do something outside of that setting was to me really frightening.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_00: So the more that I have dipped my toe in that water, the more I've I've gotten comfortable with it.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_00: And I love challenging other people to do the same thing as well because it's not a big scary world necessarily where everybody's out there to get you and you know, it's it's dog eat dog world, and and there's some of that too.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_00: But I mean, my goodness, that's in the church as well.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_00: It's not like it's to me, it has not actually been really much different doing something with with a local business or with a client trying to help them with ghostwriting or with their with their copy on their website or with podcasting or whatever it is, right?
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_00: So I don't know, I I just like to challenge people to to think outside of the walls of the local church, just because we're oftentimes scared of that.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and my goodness, there's so many people who need to hear about Jesus.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, how's that gonna happen unless we actually go to them?
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_00: And I I'm not saying with every client that we work with or everything that we do business-wise that we have to be ramming the gospel down their throat or anything like that, because that approach doesn't work anyway.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_00: But I do think if we do excellent work with our art or with our writing, or if we have a service-based business or if we have products, if we do a good job of that, I feel like that opens up a context for more conversations.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_00: And if we show excellence in our craft, that to me is a really good witness because if we have if we do our craft and it's really poorly done, no matter what that craft or business is, then that in my mind kind of marsh the name of Christ because we're basically saying, Hey, I worship a really awesome and excellent God, but I don't reflect that in my personal work.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, don't look at me for the example, right?
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, exactly.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I don't want to give the impression that I do any of this perfectly by any stretch.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_01: No, no, we're all in process, right?
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_01: But I think one of the big frustrations I see in so many Christian artists is that they want to serve the Lord with their art and they get started maybe at a conference like our gathering of artisans or others, and then they they're like so excited about it, and then they start thinking, wow, maybe I could sell my art.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_01: They start getting a desire for that, and they try to put all those expectations of the marketplace on their local church.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_01: Why isn't anybody buying my art?
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_01: Why isn't anybody commissioning?
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I always say, you know, I think our art is designed to bless the church, uh, and it obviously it is to enhance worship, to glorify the Lord, to be an offering of worship to him.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_01: But at the same time, I really believe, like you said, it's for the marketplace because that's where most people are, and that's where we get to develop relationships.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_01: And I think more often than not, our art becomes this sort of um intersection point, if you will, where the Lord can use not only the relationship that we've we've built, but also the the creative expression of our hands and our heart to to become a way that he can speak to people in ways that are non-traditional, that that singing and preaching in in the normal uh day-to-day of the local church may never reach them.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_01: And so yeah, that to me is so exciting.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_00: I think a huge part of it for me also is just asking the question where is it that that God is operating in the world?
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_00: Is God only operating in the local church?
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_00: Is that the only place where quote unquote ministry takes place?
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_00: Right, right.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_00: I I don't I don't think so.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_00: And I I sure hope not, because there's a lot of people out there that aren't going to church.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_00: So I I sure hope that God is is ministering to people and serving people and and using me in a way that's improving people's lives and their business, regardless of whether I have the name Jesus stamped on it or whatever it is.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, and if there's any pastors listening to this, which I know that there are, we love it.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_00: I definitely don't believe Yeah, absolutely.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_00: I know I love pastors.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_00: And in fact, I one of my secret desires, I've never actually said this publicly, but I've been thinking about an article for the last couple weeks and I want to write, but I'm I'm afraid I'm gonna get some pushback on it, which is okay.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_00: But I really believe that most pastors should consider having some kind of a side business or a side hustle because that would help them to reach out to their community, to get engaged in the business world and doing things that maybe intimidate them a little bit, but also open so many doors for conversations.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, my goodness, just just getting engaged out there and doing things that are outside the local church can be so refreshing.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_00: And man, it also just gives you something that you're building on the side that doesn't have to do with your church job.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but I think that can be really creatively refreshing to people.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_01: Well, when you get ready to share that, I'll give you a link to my my controversial article that says three reasons why all Christian artists should leave the church.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_00: That is copywriting.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, clickbait, no, but it it works though.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't work so but it was uh again, it's just this heart of guys, yeah, honor your local church, invest in it, be a part of it, but don't allow that to be the end all be all, and don't put all that weight of expectation on dreams that you may have uh for business or whatever on your local church because that gets to be a really kind of kind of weird relationship.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_00: So I I think Yeah, and it's not just oh, I'm sorry, go ahead.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_01: No, go I was just gonna say I think the the exciting thing for me that happens with a lot of to watch a lot of artists, it happened for me in my own life, is realizing that God's design for us in the kingdom is that we harvest our provision in our life, our finances, in line with our design.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_01: And for artists, you know, so many times we're taught, especially ones that grew up in the church or involved in ministry, we're taught that, well, this is just an extra thing, or you should be giving this away because God inspired you and how could you charge for it?
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_01: And there's no thought at all that God could use uh your creative expression as a vehicle to bring income into your life.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_01: And yet I find that's a huge way that God does it.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_01: And that's the way provision is designed to flow in his kingdom.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you're seeing that in your own life as you not only do what you do in ministry, but you're also stepping out of the marketplace as well.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I am.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, uh, I'm getting ready to sign um to sign my first book, Ghostwriting Client.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_00: Hopefully, they'll send a contract back.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, today I sent it off a few days ago.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_00: And this has been really exciting to me.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_00: This is a huge thing that I've been intimidated by, to be frank with you, for a while.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_00: I've been doing ghostwriting of different kinds for clients for several years, whether it's you know, podcast show notes or articles or or website copy or whatever it is.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_00: And that's not even really considered quote unquote ghostwriting, I guess.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_00: But but it's been really fascinating to me that that the more you put yourself out there and the more that you you try to achieve bigger goals that you feel like are beyond you, cool things can really happen with that.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I I guess my goal is, you know, coming from somebody who I used to work at a church, I did that for about eight or nine years, uh full time, and then switched to teaching.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_00: And in the Christian college world, you also rely on donations a lot.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you you depend on people to generously support what you're doing so you can keep your tuition costs down for students who are going into ministry who probably aren't going to be making high salaries.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_00: And something that is is a goal of mine that I want to shoot for is at some point in my life, I I don't just want to be the person asking for donations.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I want to be the person who's giving donations.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we had a thing at our school, uh, a big event a few months ago where we had a guy who pledged to match.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_00: I think it was uh and again, keep in mind we have a very small college.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, sure.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_00: We did this event where we were wanting to raise, it was like$80,000 or something.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_00: And um if we raised$40,000, this donor was no, I'm sorry, it was$60,000.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_00: If we raise$60,000, this donor was going to match that.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_00: And we we met the goal through this event that we had, and he ended up match ended up matching it.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_00: And I told somebody at my college college, I'm like, I want to be that guy.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_00: I want to I want to be the guy who joyfully write out a large check to uh to my church or to a college or to a missionary or whoever whoever it is to support the cause of Christ in the world.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but so many times in the in the Christian community we we get weird about money and and we have this kind of poverty mentality.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_00: So I don't know.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_00: I I think if we can use our creative gifts to bring in income so that we can then bless others and we can just be a channel of blessing.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_00: That to me is such a cool thing.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_01: Well, that's the kingdom.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_01: We're transformed to be conduits of transformation in in other people's lives.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_01: And I think for for me, I've loved the fact that we've been able to grow a very prosperous art business and mentoring business and that sort of thing.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_01: And it enables us to give back generously into the community and it's prosperity with a purpose.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_01: And again, that's God's design is that you know, if he can get it through you, he'll get it to you, right?
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_01: And so I I I just love the way that that is happening in our life.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_01: And I just I just did a uh interview in my mentoring program with a woman who's been in the program about a year, and God has completely changed her art business, all this kind of stuff.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_01: And she said, Man, when I started understanding how the kingdom of God works, especially in regards to finances, she said, in this last quarter of my year, I have sold more art than any other year ever in my 35 years of selling.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_01: And uh I'm like, hello, this is this is so incredible to see because and it's it's so empowering to for artists to believe that wow, I can do the thing that God's called me to do, and I don't have to live in this false narrative of but being a starving artist.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_00: Do you think for the ones that you have worked with who have really had a transformation in their lives, does that come down to their art sometimes, or you know, like the quality of their art or their ability to create art that the marketplace wants, or is it more of a mindset shift, or is it both things sometimes?
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it's definitely both things.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I I think you know, you can't only have I call it being filled and skilled, right?
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_01: Out of Exodus 31.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_00: So I love that.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_01: Bezalel's filled with the Spirit of God and skilled in every manner of workmanship.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_01: And that is this balance, uh, this sort of two wings of a plane, if you will, that we're always navigating as artists.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_01: And so you can be really skilled and be a great artist, but if you don't have the infilling of the Holy Spirit, if you don't know how to move with the voice of the Lord in your business, in your art, then you can really kind of have a just feel like you're going through the motions, have a little bit of success or a measure of success.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_01: This lady did, she was an excellent artist for 35 years, had a measure of success, but lacking fulfillment, no real like feeling of abundance and fulfillment in her life.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_01: When she brought in now learning to hear God's voice, a different mindset about who she is, learning to flow with the Holy Spirit in her business and uh just as much as her spiritual life and in her art, all of a sudden that's when the whoosh, I call it, you know, begin to happen.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_01: And I so I think it's both and it's developing our skills uh in order to enlarge our capacity to flow with the Holy Spirit and at the same time continuing to renew our mind to the truth about who God says we are and what he has for us.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_00: So it's I love that.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_00: I really, really love that.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_00: That's so cool.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_01: It's a huge dynamic, I think, for for all of us.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_01: And um, you know, that that kind of dynamic really is what led me to your book.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm gonna get the the title right, The Artist Suitcase, 26 Essentials for the Creative Journey, because I love little nuggets, I love quotes, I love quick things that I can uh encourage people with and that sort of thing along this journey of being filled and skilled.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_01: And somebody in one of our Facebook book groups shared uh this book out there, and I was like, that's when I was like, who is this guy?
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_01: What?
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_01: I never heard of this guy.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_00: What is this?
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_01: What is it?
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_01: What is this strange thing you put in my Facebook group?
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_01: No, but it was it was so great because you take the alphabet and you go through with 26 different essentials for uh you know your creative journey.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_01: I I had a couple of of favorites.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_01: If I can can I drop these on you and maybe Absolutely, absolutely because you know I always hate it when I get on a podcast and somebody says, you know, on page 46 you wrote that so and so and so and so.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, Did I really?
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_01: I don't even know that I wrote that.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it has been a few years, but I I broke up my copy of the book.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, okay, if he asks me about something that way, I can look through and go, Did I actually write that?
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I guess I did.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly, exactly.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: No, number eight, you said F is for failure.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_01: And uh talk about that because I think in this in this whole evolution of being an artist, of being filled and skilled, of trying to flow with the Holy Spirit and answer God's call in our life, things don't go perfectly.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_01: And we do have to walk through failure in our life.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_01: Why did you choose that as one of the real essentials for a creative?
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_00: So in the book, I did a chapter on failure because that's something I've dealt with a lot personally myself.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_00: But I think it it is important to step back and try and look objectively at what it is that happened.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_00: You know, why did I fail?
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_00: Why did I succeed?
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_00: What happened that led to the situation that I'm in that I'm perceiving as a failure?
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_00: But I think if you step even more back, and this is a little bit meta, I guess, there really is no such thing as success or failure.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_00: There's only a sequence of events that happen in our lives.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_00: And we can assign success or failure to those events.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_00: You know, like for for example, last summer I spent about a week creating a um a proposal to do some consulting for a large organization that I thought was going to work out.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I was convinced it was going to work out.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_00: And this was a this was much larger than anything I'd ever put together.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_00: I was convinced it was going to go the way that I wanted.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it ended up not going that way.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_00: And for several weeks I was actually pretty agitated about it.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, I could ring my wife on the podcast and she would tell you he was not in the greatest room for about a month after that.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_00: But it doesn't mean that I was a failure in that.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_00: It just means it didn't go the way that I happened to want it to go.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_00: I could assign that as a failure, but instead I chose to think of it as after a few weeks, I chose to think of it as a learning point.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_00: What did I do wrong?
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_00: What can I what can I do better the next time?
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_00: And the more that I thought about it objectively, the more that I discovered I did a whole bunch of things wrong in this process.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_00: And this would have been a disaster if they would have said yes.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm glad it didn't work out actually.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_00: So I don't know.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_00: I that that may seem a little bit um a little bit meta, but I do think that's that's the truth.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_01: No, that's huge.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_01: I I told the mentoring program the other day, I said 99.9% of the the problems or the big blow-ups that you have in your life, the frustrations that that happened in your life, happen because of expectation.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_01: The situation did not go the way you thought it should or would have gone.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_01: And because of that, you assign all this meaning to it.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_01: And more than likely, I know this is the case for me, you attach some part of your identity to that outcome.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_01: And so now, now I think, well, no, now it just didn't go badly, and I didn't do it badly, but I'm bad because it didn't go.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not worthy.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_01: And that is where I think so many artists get attacked and paralyzed in their life because they internalize the the fruit of decisions or situations that happen in their life, as opposed to being able to walk in a healthy identity and hold those uh events that happen in life kind of at arm's length to be able to look at them, like you said, objectively and and be able to walk through that in a healthy way.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_01: So that kind of gets into your another one that I loved, which I talk about a lot.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_01: I would say G is for grit, but you said P is for persistence because I'm from the South, so everything comes back to grits, right?
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely, absolutely.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_01: But um, you know, for me, grit and persistence is like I think of that scripture, you know, the righteous fall seven times, but get back up.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_01: It's this, it's not in everything going right, but it's in my ability and my diligence in continuing on the journey, even when things have not gone the way I thought or been difficult.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_01: And that sounds like that's been a real core thing for for you as well.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, in fact, I was talking about this to someone just the other day about thinking through why is it that we get discouraged and why do we want to give up and why don't we persist in the things that we actually want to do and the goals that we have?
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_00: I know for me, a lot of times that happens when I'm tired physically, when I'm tired emotionally or mentally.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_00: That to me is a huge trigger for wanting to give up when I just feel tired in my spirit.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_00: And it seems like the older I get, the more that that happens.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_00: I you know, my I don't have the energy level I used to when I was 25.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, sure.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_00: So may maybe there is there is a bit where as we get older, we have to manage our expectations a little bit in terms of our energy and our ability to focus and all those things.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_00: But for me, a big key to to thinking through the reasons that I don't persist is journaling.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_00: So I try to maintain a daily journal habit.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_00: I don't do it every single day, I would say five days a week on average.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_00: But for me, sitting down and and writing out my thoughts and my feelings about whatever situation that I want to quit or that I'm mad about or frustrated about, that has been a huge thing for me.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_00: Just thinking through and processing, okay, what exactly am I mad about?
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_00: And and I've done actually done this many times.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_00: I know this sounds really juvenile, but there have been many times where I've gone to work and I've just been out of sorts about something it might be a family thing, it might be a personal thing or a work thing.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_00: And literally I will make a list of what am I mad about right now?
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_00: What is upsetting me?
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_00: And I'll make a list.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_00: But then when you stop and look at that list objectively, you think, wow, these are all really silly.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_00: Or maybe they're not all really silly, but a lot of them are kind of silly.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_00: And then if I'm choosing to be upset in this moment and I'm choosing to want to give up and quit, then that also means I can I can reverse that decision.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I can choose to persist, I can choose to have grit and keep on despite what my emotions are telling me.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_00: So for me, that that has been a key part of trying to be a little more persistent in my life is just becoming more objective, writing down my feelings and getting those on paper.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_00: And then when you see those in black and white, there's something about doing that where they lose their power over you when you actually see them in print.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_00: You bring them in.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_00: That's what happened for me.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, I totally agree.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_01: Because I think for all of us as artists, that that thing that the enemy does to all of us that says, You're the only one, you're the only one that's dealing with this.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_01: Nobody else is as bad as you are, all that.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_01: But when you write it, like I'm a I'm a big journaler every day.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I'm I drink my coffee, sit in my chair, write it in my journal.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's my my jam.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_01: And I that is so cathartic for me to be able to write things down, not only in prayer, but like you said, things you're struggling with, and all of a sudden it brings it into reality.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like, now is this really as bad as I think it is, or am I making up in my mind what could happen as opposed to what's really the issue in this situation?
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, I just I love that.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_01: I I've written about that in every book that I've written.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, all right, before you read this book, get your journal out because God's gonna God's gonna use this to, you know, to for you to really process what what he's doing in your life through this.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_01: So that's so important.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_01: Do you have we could talk all day, but I'm like as you're thinking about your own creative journey and again working with so many creatives, is there one habit other than journaling, which I think we both agree is so huge, that you think, wow, this has been a major, major uh important thing in my life, my own creative journey to help keep me on the path of what God's got for me and really grow um and expand in your capacity as an artist?
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_00: I would say in the past 12 months or so, really the last several years, but specifically the last year, the number one thing that has helped me to grow more than far more than anything else is being around other successful people.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm a part of a weekly writer's mastermind group.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_00: We've met actually for about five years every Monday morning online.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_00: We meet on Zoom, just like we're doing now.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and that has been transformational for me.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_00: But I've also in the last year, I started a local mastermind group for men to work on our personal and professional goals.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_00: We meet every two weeks at a coffee shop.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_00: And in fact, it was so much fun last month because I transferred leadership of that group over to another gentleman in the group.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_00: So he's leading it, and I'm seeing him kind of bust out and take charge, which has been so much fun.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_00: But I'm I'm also a part of a couple of paid groups.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_00: Uh one is called the Total Life Freedom Group.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_00: It's led by a guy named Vincent Puglisi, who wrote a book called Freelance to Freedom.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_00: He used to be a very successful photographer, and now he does speaking and coaching and masterminds and all kinds of things like that, helping people to develop a business out of their freelancing, basically.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_00: And to develop time, money, and location freedom.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_00: And being a part of of that group has been really, really transformational.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_00: Just being around other successful thinkers, people who are at much higher levels than I am.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_00: It's intimidating sometimes, but it has pulled me forward in ways that I could never do myself.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_00: So that's why I think for those listening who would like to be better artists and be better creatively, what you're offering as far as your coaching and your programs and your mentoring, man, I would encourage people to take advantage of that because you are not gonna go very far just on your own power.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_00: You've got to have somebody who's reaching a hand down and pulling you up.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_00: So being around successful people is so key.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_01: Well, and just like you, I practice that in my own life.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_01: I'm also a part of you know, several mastermind groups with, you know, I've I committed a long time ago to try my very best not to be this.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_01: I don't want to be the smartest person or think I'm the smartest person in the room.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_01: I want to be exactly around people that are gonna stretch me and make me go, whoa, that's possible.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_01: And um, and I think that it's so funny, you know, when we started the mentoring program, it's going on four years now.
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um about two years prior to that, I had a lot of the teaching uh kind of in my head and written down for what I was gonna do in the mentoring program, and we put it out there in a format that had no community component.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_01: And what we found was this is so interesting to me, we found a ton of people came in and then nobody hardly, I mean like two percent of people came back.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_01: And we were like, what is the deal?
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_01: And I was thinking to myself, this is such valuable information and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, you know, all this kind of thing.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_01: And it comes down to it's not information that brings transformation in your life, it's interaction, not only with the information, but with others on the journey, with the Lord in the process.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_01: And I, as I look at the mentoring program now, we've got close to 1,200 members and growing all the time.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it is amazing what starts to happen when people share that journey with others, and um, because you can process and you can say, Oh gosh, I'm not the only one going through this, or how did you get through this?
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_01: And maybe I could use that strategy in my life.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_01: And it's just uh it a rising tide, you know, floats all boats.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_01: It really helps everybody grow together.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_00: So oh, I I could not agree more.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_00: I just love that.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_00: That for me has been the number one factor in any growth that I've had the last year or two, really, is it's other people and their influence.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_01: Well, Kent, man, this has been such a a pleasure to get to know you a little better and know your heart.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_01: And uh guys, if you want to know about Kent, you can check out the show notes that's got his website, also got a link to his books and that sort of thing on Amazon.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_01: And um, I can't wait to dive into some more of him and just just hear more of your heart, Kent.
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_01: But thanks so much for being on the podcast today.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_01: And I hope all my listeners will reach out and get to know what you're doing more.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_00: Awesome.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much, man.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_00: I appreciate what you're doing to encourage artists and creatives.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_00: It's really, really important work because arts and creativity, that's the language of culture.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I love the fact that you're diving into that headfirst and helping people with that area.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_00: Well, thanks a lot.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I normally end an interview episode with three takeaways, but today I want to end just with one, and that is the need to expand your network and build relationships.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_00: So here's a couple of great examples.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_00: The way I was connected with Matt Tommy was through our mutual friend Manuel Luz, who introduced us.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_00: Monoel was on my podcast back on episode 79, and he thought that Matt would make a great guest, and so he connected us.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_00: And by the way, I just connected with a new friend here in St.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_00: Louis because he heard me on Matt's podcast recently.
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, he heard the very same interview that I played for you on this episode.
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_00: So the point of all this is put in the effort, put in the time, put in the emotional energy to keep expanding your network and building relationships.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, after all, that's all that we really take out of this life with us.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_00: We don't we don't take things with us, we don't take possessions.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we take relationships.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_00: That's that's what creates value for people is those relationships that we have.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_00: So get out there and build those connections and those relationships.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_00: You never know what kind of cool things will result from connecting with awesome people.
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I want to thank our special guest, Matt Tommy, for having me on his show and for letting me use this conversation on this episode.
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_00: Please make sure and check out his podcast and his website and his books.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_00: Lots and lots of good stuff there.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_00: And you'll find all of that at mattommymentoring.com.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_00: And thanks also to you for listening to this episode.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_00: I truly appreciate it.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_00: As always, remember that you can find lots more resources for writers and creatives at KentStandards.net.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_00: Until next time, remember that your writing has the power to change people's lives.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I'll see you in the next episode.