Latest / The Pluralist Podcast - with Orly Erez-Likhovski and Rabbi Josh Weinberg / Tisha B’Av in an Age of Jewish Power with Rabbi Michael Marmur

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Tisha B’Av in an Age of Jewish Power with Rabbi Michael Marmur · The Pluralist Podcast - with Orly Erez-Likhovski and Rabbi Josh Weinberg

• Noam Zuckerman: I'll tell you my favorite verse in the book of Lamentations, since you didn't ask. What is your favorite verse? Habitu Habitu Uru im Yesh Machovka Machov. Yeah. Look and see if there is any pain like my pain. That is an expression of a person in the grip of absolute grief. There's never been a pain like this pain. Now, here's what I want to say: Yeshmachov Kamachov. There is pain like my pain. And there are individuals who in the specificity of their pain and grief can find a way of identifying with the pain and grief. the other including and we have to say this pain and grief that we were we were agents of that we caused Conversation Audio: Welcome back to the Police Podcast from both sides of the ocean. I'm Oli Elzdykovsky, Executive Director of the Israel Religious Action Center. And I'm Rabbi Josh Weinberg, Vice President for Israel and Reformed Zionism for the URJ and director of Arts Today we are recording on July twenty first, the seventh day of the month of Av, sitting here on the campus of the Hebrew Union College in Jerusalem, in the office of Rabbi Michael Marmor. It's an honor to be with you in person. and Yes, so great to be able to record some sessions in person and not through Zoom. and yeah, I think today we're gonna talk about the Shabi'Av. us of in an age of Jewish sovereignty and power. Tishab has traditionally been a day of mourning for the destruction of Jerusalem, the temple, the Jewish national life, but today Jerusalem has been rebuilt and we have a Jewish state. So what are we really mourning? We want to ask what it means to speak about Sinathinam, baseless hatred, religious zilotry, destruction, and rebuilding in the reality we are living through today. How can Tishab help us recognize the dangers of extremism, dehumanism and moral certainty in our time and how can we make space for Jewish grief and fear while also confronting suffering caused or enabled by Jewish power. And really no better person to do that with than of course Rabbi Professor Michael Marmer. in addition to, I'll say on a personal note, being my teacher and rabbi and someone who I continue to learn through someone who from whom I continue to learn every opportunity that I can. Rabbi Marmer is a theologian, an educator, a teacher, a writer, and an activist who has spent decades shaping Reformed Judaism in in Israel and around the world. I'll I'll give your official bio just so that our listeners have it. That Rabbi Mahmer is the former provost of the Hebrew Union College Jewish Institute of Religion and previously served as dean of its Jerusalem campus. He has written and taught extensively about Jewish theology, liberal Judaism, religious responsibility, and the role of Jewish ideas in public life. Some of his books include Abraham Joshua Heschel and The Sources of Wonder. He co he edited a book with the late Rabbi Professor David Ellenson, American Jewish. Thought since 1934, writings on identity, engagement, and belief, and recently Living the Letters, an alphabet of emerging Jewish thought. Okay. And just as of late, hot off the presses, as we can say, a book that you edited with Professor David Myers from Los Angeles called The Challenges of Sovereignty: Essays on Israel and Zionism, bringing together the essays and writings of David Ellenson on these topics. So it's a very fitting time to be talking about those things. And I should add also Also, that in addition to your academic and HUC positions, you are also a past chairperson of Rabbis for Human Rights here in Israel. Rabbi Mahmer, thank you so much for taking the time to be with us and thank you for hosting us here in your office. It is a great pleasure. it's always amusing to hear a long introduction about Tishab Ab and then to hear who better to talk on the subject than Michael Maurer. I don't want you know your listeners and viewers to get the impression that I am the go-to person. And from more and destruction and destruction and pain. I have other that I'm interested in other topics as well, but I'm happy to be talking with you. Well, I think that we want to use this conversation to really talk about the future. and to talk about how we should be thinking about these things as Jews, as liberal Jews, as reformed Jews, as those who take the lessons of our past seriously in order for them to inform our future, and to think about what what what what should we be doing about that? And of course the question. Noam Zuckerman: Zionism as early stated, you what does it mean to be living here in a modern day Jerusalem when there may still be some issues yet to solve in the modern state of Israel and around the world. Talk about pain and destruction, but of course as a way of getting out of it to a better future obviously and So Michael really thank you for being with us and before we turn to Tisha Be'ab and other issues. We want to ask you Start with you telling us a little bit about your journey. How did you become a Reform Rabbi? you know dealing with research and teaching and what led you to also be involved in Jewish activism Perfect preparation for a discussion on Tisha B'A'ab. Something about my biography. I'm in the family business. I was born into a rabbinic family. My father, late Rabbi Dov Mama, would always like to say when people would ask him, you come from a distinguished rabbinic family? He would say no, but my children do. So I was born into such a family in England. where I picked up this accent. came to Israel after my undergraduate studies in the mid 1980s. I originally thought about going on to HUC in North America, in United States, but I, in the course of my first year here, decided that I was gonna stay. Sarah, who became my wife, was then the love interest. She came out a year later from England, and we've been here ever since, essentially. was ordained from the Israeli program of the college. worked for six years at the Leo Bech Education Center in Haifa as the rabbi of Oil Abraham congregation and also teaching high school and on the executive committee of that great institution and then was asked to come back here to this place. So one way the other, I've been, it's very hard to find your way around this campus and I've actually been stuck here since 1984. I'm sure I'll find a way out eventually. My area of particular academic interest is indeed Jewish thought, Jewish theology. I wrote a doctorate on the thought of Abraham Joshua Heschel, which was later turned into a book. Sadly, not yet a movie, but who knows? It could happen. I Netflix is interested There's some interest, but there's been some issues with the casting. haven't yet got down to it. And in the course of the years I've taught in all of the programs here at the college the Israeli dimension of what HSC does, at the same time hosting a wave upon wave of students, education, cantorial rabbinic students who come in from over there and spend the first year, have spent the first year of their studies with us. So that's more or less the kind of broad sweeps of the story. I'm married to Sarah, who's the executive director of the Rossing Center for Education and Dialogue. We have three adult children. one grandchild. That's more or less who we are. And you are dealing not only with research and teaching, but you are involved in Jewish activism, I would call it, and you served as the chairperson of Rabbi's for Human Rights and you still serve on the board. Could you tell us a little bit about that, what led you to deal with that alongside your academic interests? Yeah, yes, absolutely. Well, I mean, I would say that I am a... In the world of activism, I am in this sort of good cup of coffee, comfortable armchair school of activism. There many of my colleagues that out on the barricades a lot more than I am, but I think... it's important, very important to be as involved as one can in the ways that one can. When I was the Provost of HUC, which means I was the Chief Academic Officer for the school across its different campuses. And during those years and the years before when I was the Dean of the college here, I couldn't really be too overtly involved in at the time, but I also wasn't quite appropriate institutionally. And when I stepped down from those roles in 2018, I knew that this was an opportunity for me to get more involved. And since that time I've been very engaged with Rabbis for Human Rights. I came in as the chair and one of the first things we did was hire Avi Dubbush as the director of Rabbis for Human Rights and I've worked very closely with Avi over the years. That's an interesting... mentioned that Avi of course now secured a relatively impressive place on the Democratium list after the primaries took place yesterday. Yes, that's certainly true. And I would say, look, Rabbi Shimon writes itself is an interesting story. A group of rabbis, perhaps none more prominent and influential amongst them at the beginning than the late David... In the 1980s here in Israel thought that it was impossible that for the for in their understanding of their own Judaism not to lean in to some of the most complicated and controversial questions. It was most particularly to do in the wake of the Intifada with the way in which we see and don't see the Palestinians around us. And over the years the organization explained. Another graduate of our institution, Arik Asherman, was for many years the director of the of the it's still amazing. He hasn't worked in Raoul's human rights for years, but people still his name has enormous recognition. so alongside the issue of the rights of Palestinians, as expressed in the West Bank and elsewhere, there was also, as the organization developed, a strong emphasis on questions of social justice. Justice within Israel, food insecurity, poverty. We have a civil rights kind of center, a walk-in center in the Kadera area. And we've been involved a lot in education, working with generations of kids in Machina and pre-army programs. It's a small, busy organization. The last very bracing and difficult years here in Israel have been awful for. Israel, they have brought a lot of the work of organizations like RHR into the light. And so we are in some in some ways busier than we've ever been. It is a s a Sisophean struggle. You're only ever pulling the pushing the rock a tiny way up before it crushes you on its way down. But I'm you asked why I'm involved in it. I'm involved in it because the alternative seems so much. Worse, which is just there's a famous Talmudic expression in in tractate Ta'anit that you shouldn't sit in your home and say Shalom Alechanafshi. I'm I'm alright, Jack. Everything's okay. I sit in this office quite often thinking how wonderful my life is, but that's not an appropriate Jewish response. So RHR is my way of trying to look out beyond the confines of my own book lined study. Similarities with you know what ARIC is doing in RHR really about raising the Jewish voice against injustice and where there's been a lot and there's a lot of you know we hire each other's people, we work in in tandem on a lot of projects. It's the same, in a sense, family. One of the things you should say about rabbis of human rights is that it is not denominational in a particular way. There is a disproportionate number of reform rabbis who've been involved in the organization over the years. it's a question w fascinating things are happening in the Orthodox world now as there are folks who are feel called to respond to the moral call of the hour. Some of them do so with in the within RHR, others, you know, the small and need new new initiatives. If you look away from the question of particular institutional interests, all of these initiatives have to burgeon and flourish and cooperate because the challenges are so enormous. But I but I think it's also a a an overlap of ideology and values at the end of the day. And I think that one of the things that we want to get into, especially in the discussion of Tishaba, zealotry, and what led to this churban, this destruction, is that this weird phenomenon that we've seen, I think it's not new in Israel, of course, that the more religiously observant someone is, the more hawkish they might be, or the less sensitive they might be to the rights of the capital O other. number of years ago someone asked me who was they're worried that Rabbis for Human Rights were too critical and giving a bad name to Israel abroad and someone asked what what do you think of Rabbis for human rights? And I said, Well more concerned with rabbis who don't care about human rights. And so you know so so I I think that is a a c there there's an overlap there and that we're all looking at this moment to say, well what are we called to do? And what do which sources do we choose to highlight i in that that are compelling for us and are calling us to act essentially. And so let let's put that in the context of Tisha Bab first would you would you be willing to share with us what what is your Tisha Ba'ab practice? here we are you're living in Jerusalem for now decades. do you have a a minhag that you do on Tisha Ba'ab or is it different each year or does it yes my Tishaab practice is fairly set. I usually in my in my community I'm involved Yeah. Interesting seems to be the time in the year in our congregation where people bring out well in in the old days people used to bring out flashlights of various kinds, now they just use their telephone. and as I've got older my capacity to sit the the stool the stools on which I sit are getting higher as as as time is passing. But no, there is that that kind of ritual dimension. I wrote an article, I just dug it out, I was looking at it in 2013, called Why I Will Be fasting this year and you know just to say a word about that from historical point of view it is interesting to note that Rabbi Judah the Prince Rabbi Judah Nasi Judah the patriarch the great the redactor of the Mishnah third early third century according to rabbinic sources tried to discontinue Tishabel And he did so on the basis that there's now sovereignty and we're now or at le not exactly sovereignty in his day, but things are doing pretty well for the Jews. You know, he was well in with the Roman Empire and there was a period of relative peace. He believed that there was a kind of messianic thing unfolding. and that it was no longer necessary. And in essence he was overruled. The folk the the the the people were not prepared to give up on and you're looking back and mourning. And looking back on mourning and perhaps they were less convinced than he was that the period of our mourning was over you know, indefinitely and redemption had not yet come happy days are here again and, you know, it's all i we're just marching forward towards a bright new tomorrow. But Yuda Anasi, not usually pegged as a reformed Jew, was an early example of somebody who thought, We don't need to do this anymore. And many followed that lead, thinking that, you know, the whole business of the elaborate choreography of mourning, you know, all that stuff, not brushing your teeth, and and not eating and all and fasting and refraining. This was so far away. And I the in the article I wrote I gave six reasons why I would be fasting that year. So I was interested to know what I what my six reasons had been. Whether they're still relevant this day's yeah. Thirteen years later. And so I wrote here here's the headlines. I'm not gonna recite the whole thing. We can put a link to it in the notes by the way if you Yeah, if I can dig it up somewhere. I'm not sure. It was in it's probably in the Jerusalem Post or something, who can remember? Anyway, it doesn't matter. I said first of all that I'd be fasting this to Shaba'av because I take Jewish tradition seriously and for the twenty centuries or so this has been a day that has resonated in our tradition and simply saying, Well, that's it, I'm done, is not quite the way I approach thinking about my relationship to tradition. I fast, I wrote, because I do not want to cede the monopoly on mourning and lamentation to fanatics and literalists. But I don't want to suggest that there's two groups within the Jewish people. Those who are, you know, sitting o on the floor and wailing and and gnashing their teeth, and then everybody else who's at the mall. that I'm not sure that I want that I want to buy in to that rather e easy dichotomy. that I would rather be part of a process which is claiming i these aspects. I fast I wrote thro Thirdly, because I need to be reminded of what I take for granted. my own parents, survivors, knew hunger well as children, but that's never been part of my been part of my experience. And it's always interesting to see how in Jewish society, certainly in Israel, the days on which we fast, the kind of general panic that sets in is no doubt triggered by some sort of group exact collective memory anxiety. the same people who get so anxious about f if you tell them that they're on a special diet of waiting, you know, it's intermittent fast. If you say it's an intermittent well that's totally fine. That's okay. If they can't if you can put on your sweats while you're doing it, then everything's fine. But the idea that you're that I'm gonna so I I I But Tish Abaav is a different kind of fest than Yom Kippur re that's Abraham Joshua Heschel once said th about the difference between Tish Ab'av and Yom Kippur. He said that on Tish Ab the question that you really ask yourself is who can eat? Mm when you think about all of the awful suffering and grief and history and one in pucanie and on Yom Kippur the the question is who needs to eat. That if you put yourself in a place where you're emphasizing the spiritual dimensions of your life you can sort of step away. So they are isn't it like more sort of Yom Kippur and the individual Khishbonnefish and obviously like to social and well that that's more general appreciation. That's certainly part of it. But right who can eat is a question of when I think of link myself to a collective and all those generations of, you know, memory and angst and this in our current situation you don't even need a long memory to think about a lot of anguish and pain. Whereas as you say in Yom Kippur, I'm personally trying to there may be some pain involved in Yom Kippur, but I'm more focusing on myself and where where I am and where I need to action. So the third anyway, my third point is that one of the reasons I I said I I'd be fasting and I'll be fasting this year is because it's it serves as a reminder to me of the things that I take for granted. And when we live in a time, you know, not very far from where we're sitting, there are people who don't know where their next meal is coming from, let alone in, you know, distant places and and sadly starvation and hunger Been a feature of the dramatic events of the last year. So that's that's another reason. I'll I promise not to bore you with the whole thing, but I'll say I fast I said my fourth point was because I'm wary of a Judaism which only likes the warm fuzzies and the happy endings. Right? If all you ever want to do is cut out the the the difficult parts and just stick around for the highlights, That's not actually how life works or how culture works. And that I'm rather try to embrace the fullness of the thing. Although I think Judaism really put actually a lot of focus on the terrible parts. I mean right? I mean we have some kind of collective tradition. Let's look back and see all the horrible things that have happened to us. We have to remember this, we have to relive them, right? It's like really focusing on the on the traumatic events of the past and to carry them with us. Well yes, although as the old joke has it, they tried to kill us, let's eat. With that the trauma is the background and the trigger, but what we want to experience is the uplift. And I don't think you can have the uplift without some downlift as well, if that's a word. The fifth thing I said was that I I'll be fasting or I fast because all the other things I do to mark this day, thinking, reflecting, discussing, you know, having this podcast, I do from the neck up, right? it's it's it's a cerebral activity. And sure that actually th this is a more somatic, f full body, all in kind of experience. The last thing I said which was true thirteen years ago, which was when Tishaba fell in the month of Ramadan was that I was doing so i in in kind of solidarity. Now that isn't the case in this particular year, but the issue of solidarity is still there, right? In the Muslim community, actually true in cr the fast days also in Christianity, people it it it's not only meant to be a wholly internal introspective kind of activity. Can it not also be a trigger to some sort of broader human empathy? So those were That's a catalogue of reasons. You asked about my Tishaba practice and you got more than you bargained for. This is to make sure you don't ask me any other questions about my practice. Mike, I wanted to pick up on something that you said about sort of the early Reformed Jews who, you know, didn't feel drawn to or wanted to sort of reject some of the the tekis or the ritual around the whole mourning and I'm wondering if it's something even more than that. The rejection of Tisha Bab for the reform movement was, you know, the rejection of mourning the temple and it's not, you know, coincidental that they or we called our synagogues temples and you know to say that did this. We are actually, you know, rebuilding Judaism and this is our temple and this is it now. We're not looking to rebuild some temple, you know, but and then there's Zionist movement, you know, basically led up to many people thinking about the state of Israel as as the third commonwealth or the third temple, if it were. I remember Moshe Dayan's sort of famous or infamous saying at the beginning of the Om Kippur War that, you Zhou Nefalba Shtisi, this is, you know, the the this is going to be the destruction of the third temple. Do you do you see that the state of Israel or even the a rebuilt Jerusalem as we're sitting here does do you see it as representing the third temple? And if so, how does that impact our thought about previous destructions and what we're looking to rebuild? Well the simple answer to your question is no. I do not see the State of Israel as the third temple and I'll tell you why I think it's a a a dangerous thing to do so. The more complicated answer is well first of all I quite agree with you, the early reformers you see this for example in the initial in the Pittsburgh platform, the first of them for the eighteen eighties, where they quite deliberately state these reform rabbis, most of them with a Ger German background in i in America, saying, We do not For the reinstitution of you know the temple in Jerusalem, they did not yearn, most of those guys, those classical reformers, for a return to the Levant. It just seemed like, why would you possibly want to do such a crazy thing? There are days in which I I you know I I I understand. One can understand the sentiment. So so but when I say no, I don't think it's the third temple. I you know, take take a phrase which was coined shortly after the s the The state came into existence. Raishit Smichat Gulatinum, which is translated variously as something like the first flowering of our redemption, or some such thing. And that appears in a blessing, perhaps coined by the then chief rabbis. Some some suggested that Agnon, the great novelist, was involved, but it's probably more a couple of rabbis put it together. when you say of the the you ask God to bless the state of Israel, the first flowering of our redemption. Actually, that's a fairly hesitant statement. It's the first stirring of a redemptive process. And some rabbis later made it even more hesitant by saying, when they say the blessing, sha tehe reshit mitzmichat vilateinum. May God bless the state of Israel. May it yet before. Now you asked me a question, I've done a bit of bait and switch, because you asked me a question about the temple. the temple and redemption are different things, right? But there are in this country today many Jews whose vision of redemption is one in which there'll be a great big there'll be a from where we're sitting on King David Street, you'll be able to smell the the the sacrifices taking place on the temple. So there are folks who all too literally think that what redemption looks like is we get back to And wipe, of course, what there is now in the amount. And what goes along with that? Yes, don't worry, we won't be sitting at the Hebrew Union College on King David's trick if the tech if the temple has been restored because we're also being swept away a you know along the way. I think that regarding y you know Regarding the state as a temple is a desperate confusion of religious and political categories which leads which only leads to grave to grave outcomes. Do I think that Israel represents at its finest the possibility that it yet may one day be the first stirring of a redemptive process? I'm fine with that. But do I think Israel is the temple and the next and the third temple is Israel? I think we go at our peril, we go down that path. Interesting. You know, for me, when we're speaking about Ishabi'ab, Right, two things come to mind. Right. First of all, Sinatrinan, right? Baseless hatred. And the other one is religious illiterate and extremism and what it br brought it to. So I wanna The first one about baseless hatred is something I'm struggling with, right? Because people are saying, that's baseless hatred and I'm saying that sometimes, and I think it's very present these days, there are things that are very dangerous that actually it's okay for us to feel appalled by and not only that to fight them, right? So I mean this whole phrase of ba of baseless hatred is like something that is mysterious to me. What does it actually mean in the context of Tisha Abiyab and in the current day context that we have so many people who are fighting our values and we want to fight back. We wanna be we wanna be we wanna be neutral and not say anything, right? I was thinking about I was I was at the the cotel actually on Friday night that I was I had this deja vu or this you know sort of a a flashback actually of one of a a very unpleasant altercation on one of the Roche Chodish in which we were there earlier And I, you know, sort of flippantly blamed someone of you know, Sinatkinam and he returned back to me and goes, No, my hatred is not baseless at all. he goes, I that's a very strong baseline. You know, he's like, I hate you and play plain and so you know, i th whether that's baseless or not, but we're feeling that I think a lot in places Yeah. Love and hate have been weaponized in our current environment. The people who'll give you a sermon about baseless hatred, and I've given several, God knows, you always need to ask who falls within the force field of their love and who of their and who of their hatred. The best reading of Sinat Hinam I have heard was by a conservative rabbi Hia Rohan Becker at a gathering at the president's house. Yeah I was there. It was brilliant. Brilliant. What she said it only works really in Hebrew, but I'll try and translate it. Sinathinam Shelahirim. What you hate is the hen, the grace, the beauty that you may fleetingly identify in the other. It's a kind of psychological reading. It's rather than saying you shouldn't go around having you know, baseless hatred for people, it it implies that some of the things that gets us most riled up and most angry is that we sometimes will look at the other with a degree of jealousy or admiration that we that we don't quite know what to do with. Look, in my general experience, the whole question of hate hatred, baseless or otherwise, is as much a personality trait as as it is to do, you know, again, it's not from the neck up. You decide you're gonna hate something or not going to hate something. Outrage is different from hatred. Protest, response, mobilization, this it seems to me we we must do. Okay? hatred when you get to the point that when a a particular individual or somebody embodying a particular attitude, all that appears is a kind of white mist of hatred, soci society does not function well when that's when when that's the the fuel that is driving it. And God knows in the last years in this country, before October seventh we were or you know already getting there, one is confronted with people, with attitudes. which of what this society ought to look like and what humanity looks like. Which is so at odds with one's own approach that simply saying isn't it lovely and we're all brothers and sisters and let's sing kumbaya that is not gonna work. I don't think that put it like this. I don't I wouldn't prescribe hatred. Hatred is not a strategy. I think interrogating one's own rage and working out how one can translate this rage to into to channel it into action. whilst it seems to me maintaining as much you know the dignity of the other, including the other with whom I do not agree, is something I try to preserve in all situations. And I think this is something that in both societies, both Israeli and American, t v two very polarized societies is something a lot of people struggle with, these days. How to have this, you know, constructive dialogue and and arguments without, as you say, sort of compromising the dignity of the person you don't agree with. I mean I'll give you a a practical example. Last week, I think it was last week or the week before, I was out not far from Jerusalem in the in a some protective presence stuff. So you said you were sitting on the couch, you are going out there and doing stuff. Well I was also sitting there a lot of the day I was sitting in a Bedouin encampment sitting on a less less well upholstered couch but I was believe out air conditioned believe me there's never been an activism activity where I haven't sought out a couch. Anyway, so there I was and what you you sit there for hours, you know, perspiring for peace, is there what you might call? And s eventually some guy, an Israeli guy as far as I could work out, the story of this young man, he's probably comes from a troubled background somewhere in in main you know, mainland Israel, you might say, who's been brought in, he's he's living on a chava on a farm settlement, and takes a a herd of goats My understanding is many of those goats not it's not clear what the original ownership of the herd is, but his job is to move it from one place to another and every day he comes past this Bedouin settlement where we were and checks the gate and the sh and the and the walls and shakes them up a bit to inter to intimidate the folks who were there. So when I look into the eyes of this young man, the few people I was with try to sort of engage him in conversation, he wasn't the biggest I wouldn't invite him to the podcast. Cast necessarily, although that might be interesting. But when I looked into his eyes, it certainly wasn't hatred that I felt. It was a great deal of despair about what the situation we've all got into, where so mu also so many resources are being poured into taking this kid from his life and and making him he's quite clearly convinced that he's doing God's work and preserving And it's I can't say that it's hatred. I don't find that that term covers what it is that I feel. But that doesn't mean that the only alternative is I feel lovely, warm, happy feelings. I do not. But I think this really raises the important question, and that goes to zealotry, the religious zealotry thing. And I think with as you said today, the Yeah. about unity and we're all brothers and sisters and everybody should be under one big tent. I think that one of the messages of Tishad is that the dangerous of zealotry that could take the tent down or the temple down, right? And I think that what is important for me is to make people understand there are boundaries beyond which some people cannot be our partners, not even for a discussion or for constructive argument, because they embody this really dangerous zealotry that is gonna bring us down. And I think we've really experienced it with the people in power in in our government, that their values are compl in complete contradiction to the And not only that, but the zealotry that's in the name of Judaism. Yeah. and saying, no, our our understanding our interpretation of Judaism and Jewish law compels us to commit serious violence that it's okay for me to steal as long as it's against the non Jew. I can take his flock. It's okay for me to, you know, rampage through villages and intimidate people. and how do we How do we r how do we respond to that? I I think, you know, we're seeing this and y you the situation that you ex described, Michael, with that individual, if I were to put it in another context, it seems like people who have joined gangs or joined cults even, you know, to look for something and they are totally convinced that this is what maybe God wants of them or the other pe you know, inspiring people want of them, and we're seeing that escalate on a level that's no longer just a few wayward lost souls but really has some support from people in in power well and more than that yeah yeah your tax shekels or your tax dollars are going towards enabling and supporting this guy you know that is an outpost it's it's not just that there are there are it you know the issue about political leadership and so forth sitting in synagogue on Shabbat, the Shabbat before Tishaba and listening to the words of the Prophet Yishayao, who I would, you know, Isaiah in in the proper English pronunciation or Isaiah for our American viewers, you know, you realize that if if you ask the question about Should religion and politics be mixed. Saraich Sorim Vhavre Ganavim, Kulo Ohev Shochad Verodev Shalmunim, your rulers are rogues and cronies of thieves, everyone avid for presents and greedy for gifts. They do not judge the case of the orphan, and the widow's cause never reaches them. Part of the story of Tishaba'av is this prophetic voice. It's an unrelenting, unforgiving. Forgiving, prophetic voice which is prepared to call out the injustices as they're seen. Now, I think a corollary or a condition of that is if all one does is spend one's time pointing one finger at the other guy and saying how how bad they've fallen, then that's just pompous and not serious. I think a religious approach is one where we're also we have to have use the same withering critique upon ourselves. doing that. right, but even I want to say within the dynamic of Tisha B'Av, right? I guess what I'm trying to do is walk a line here. I don't want to go into the banal space of everybody's as bad as everybody else and everybody's as good. That's not true. That's not true. According to my moral compass, there are opinions and activities and policies which represent the worst, the antithesis of all the things that I believe in. I have no problem saying that. The line I'm trying to draw is on the other hand becoming this very judgmental person that goes around saying, you're no good and you're no good and only I with my particular, I do want to say something that people don't often think about with regards to Tishape'av. One of the great unspoken themes of the Book of Lamentations is the alphabet. am a big lover of the alphabet. you promoted earlier is all about the alphabet. here's the thing. Open access. It's free online. And the alphabet is freely available to anybody. The book Alignmentations is an alphabetical book. of all the chapters of the book are in conversation with the alphabet. Most of the chapters go in alphabetical order. One of the chapters has got three alas, three betes, three gimels. And the last chapter of the book, you'd think, looks like three verse. It is alphabetical. But how many verses are there in the chapter? Twenty-two. It's all in conversation with the alphabet. All in conversation with the alphabet. Why do I mention this here? An alphabet is... by its nature, it's an encompassing thing. If we're going to cope with the complexity of what we're in, if all you have in your alphabet is one letter, if you have one theme, one tone, one melody, you don't capture the complexity of it. And when this lamentation work, work of mourning uses the alphabet, it tries to say, can I, how should I count the ways? I need to use all the alphabet of my emotions and my beliefs and my analyses to try and capture it. So anybody, I'm always suspicious of somebody who has the one clear understanding of what all our problems are. It's an alphabet of grief. I understand it, but I think that in our current atmosphere when we're living in such a chaotic reality, think it's actually important and it is our responsibility to say, yes, there is right and wrong, there is black and white and some of the things that we're seeing are terribly wrong and it's very hard to find one right thing that for instance the Israeli government is doing and it's our responsibility to call it out as wrong and to present the alternative of what we think should be. from the Jewish perspective and I think that looking in our resources we can find both the values that we believe in but also terrible things that some of our people in power today are using Judaism to promote hatred and exclusion and we should call this out. I don't disagree with you. I think maybe there's a difference in tone. stating we can state till tomorrow that there's that there's right and wrong and and there's black and white, but we also live all the time in shades of grey of different different kinds. Every so often something happens in the world Which helps remind me at least that however much I wanna look for an alphabet and a range of possibilities sometimes it's just this is is too much. It's described by the great thinker Weber over a hundred years ago, talks about this notion of an ethic of responsibility, that sometimes you get to a point where you just say, Here I stand, I can do no other. This you know, if to to be explicit for a moment, if some of the things that Yeah. says about Jews and Arabs and about the the system of justice and all if some of those things are true then everything that I believe in is a lie, right? And so it helps clarify. But most of the time, most of the time, one lives in a world in which even with folks who espouse opinions very different from my own, I'm often trying to work out how did they get to where they are and and and and and what's different about me and What c do I have to learn? So you're talking about zealotry before. Zealotry is an equal opportunity employer. There are people who can be zealous in all sorts of ways. And once you get into the dynamic where you say, Well, I'm clearly right, which means you're clearly wrong, that you go through life in this kind of binary way of looking at the world. I'm much more about the alphabet. So I want to say what are the range of things and the fact that that even let's take it a benguer, okay? To my great shame, we belong to the same people. I mean he feels the same about me. It's okay it's okay. It's mutual. Even though we don't die at the same but we are part you know a a I had a conversation at that same at that same Detective presence thing where I spoke to one of the Bedouin folks who would be in the village and he had been shot in last December by some of these people from one of the new farms had come down to show who was boss. And I said something like, you know, I was you know, I I felt he said to me as I was leaving that he was sorry that we'd had to spend the day doing this and I said, I feel you know you're sorry. I'm sorry. And then we got talking about these ex these extremists and I said to them, which is the truth, I have a deep sense of identification with these people. I I'm I'm not talking about the the the the Bengvirs of this world. I am appalled by what they say and what but I do feel connected, you know, n nationally or however you want to say this, and that forces me often to ask myself, how How do these dynamics of zealotry and extremism, how how do they play out? We need to be strong enough, I completely agree with you, to face down this threat. We can't, you know, we should learn from the prophet Isaiah, I would hear what was translating for your own benefit. We should learn that sometimes you just have to call it out. But I think we should be cautious in making everything into a black and white question. Yeah. Well that I mean that's interesting to the question of you know black and white. I wanna build on that a little bit, is that when we look at Tisha Ba'ab traditionally, we tend to say, This is a thing that happened to us. First temple. The second temple are all the things that they, you know, built on to the day. This happened to us. And our modern day Khorban of October seventh or Sinkhoturah is a thing that happened to us. And this needs to be a moment about our own morning, our own story going into ourselves as a community, as a people, as a and time other people are suffering. Sometimes suffering that that we caused also, whether it's in response to destruction or not. so how d how do we reconcile that? Can we both mourn our own story on our own fate as it were, and also say, wait a second, there is great suffering that's going on right now, not far from us, as as you pointed out with the Bedouin, but also let's name it Gaza, right now. And how do we you know rationalize that as as Jews to say, okay, th maybe this is about us and maybe this is a moment for us to be not only about ourselves. And I think a lot of people in North America are struggling struggling with that both sides, by the way. We get it, you know, we have people who are telling us, this needs to be about us and us only. And other people saying to us, this cannot be about us at all. That look at what's happening. And y you know, I have my opinions, but it's a big question, I think. Yeah. I'll tell you my favorite verse in the book of Lamentations, since you didn't ask. What is your favorite verse? Habitu Habitu Uru im Yesh Machovka Machov. Yeah. Look and see if there is any pain like my pain. That is an expression of a person in the grip of absolute grief. There's never been a pain like this pain. Now, here's what I want to say: Yeshmachov Kamachov. There is pain like my pain. And there are individuals who in the specificity of their pain and grief can find a way of identifying with the pain and grief. the other including and we have to say this pain and grief that we were we were agents of that we caused maybe even this is hard for people to hear in a disproportionate and inappropriate way okay in an unjustifiable way There is something comforting when you say, look and see if there's any pain like my pain, that's the end of the discussion. Don't talk to me now. I'm in my pain. And I must say, no knowing knowing folks who have had you know, the ultim ultimate price in the course of these last dreadful years. there is a kind of force field of grief around them and who has anybody else to to tell them anything. But we as a society, we as a people, we as a collective need to reflect on what that dynamic means. Once you get into there's no pain like my pain, you have a license for blindness. And once you have a license for blindness, you're only going Get more deeper into this dynamic. So I what I love about the I once suggested to my colleagues in Maram, the Rabbinical Assembly here in Israel, that we make it our motto for the institution. Because sometimes when the when we're sitting around, like in a you know, it's the rabbis trades union, sometimes the conversations are a bit like that. You think that's bad. Let me tell you let me tell you what it's like for me. And it's true of any group that's part, it's part of what brings you together. together or to cohere. But I think the challenge, I think it's a religious challenge and a moral challenge, is is what does it mean to face up to one's specific pain and realize that someone not very far away from you is in the grip of a dreadful pain. Right? And it's not a competition, right? Exactly. Yeah, I think I I think to Israelis what happened after October seventh, because the catastrophe was was so widespread and really touched on everyone, I think people experienced it like never before. And I think it took a lot of people some time to go beyond our our pain and to look outside. I can tell you that for me it was a very scary experience because it took like for those fair first two weeks I felt I can't look at anybody like my people's pain and it was scary because I've never felt this before. So for me it took a few weeks. For a lot of people it took months and years and that's on one sense understandable because of the you know magnitude of the of the trauma. But I exactly like you're saying Mamor I think the the message is that it's not pain Olympics and you can care for your people pain and for others people pain and one does not negate the other. I think I really felt it also around the memorial, Israeli Palestinian memorial ceremony which was cleared in Ranana in the Reform synagogue and I was heard and I think the the feelings that people feel about this. Just to remind you you were injured by a mob that Yeah but think that the ceremony itself it is so debatable because people say no no no we should focus on our pain and not talk at all about other people pain because one negates the other and this is such an important concept to break in order for us to really have a break. through a and with that Tisha Bab I think is important because we have people and I'm talking you know wearing my North American lens here who are unable to see our own pain at all and are only looking at the pain of the other and to say, you know y you know, you you are inflicting pain and they are experiencing pain and not able to understand it. I a and and I don't want to say even in i in context, but to wait wait a second, you Yeshkeovimke like the you know, there are th I I am in pain and I think we, you know, being here in Israel now seeing a and and and several several times over the last few years is a society that's in trauma. some say the Jewish people are in trauma, whether it's from the destruction of the temple or from the Shoah or from October seventh, but w we're we're we're traumatized and i I I I think I think you put up beautifully, does that leave us blind, to to I think we're reaching to the close. Unfortunately we wanted to continue to speak with you until Tisha Bab and beyond. Yeah. But maybe maybe just to to conclude, Michael, would you be willing to just maybe share a few thoughts or I don't know if advice or to say, you know, a lot of people are struggling, and I think Tishabaab is a day that puts the focus on Jerusalem and puts the focus on the destruction and sort of the a phrase that we mentioned at the conference yesterday on the lacrimos history of of the Jewish people. And people are struggling to figure out h how they should feel, what they should do, and how can we use this moment to help us you know think about these things in a different way. way or potentially move forward with how we should be thinking, feeling and and and acting. And we're at the very end of the episode, so you must give us a hopeful message. Yes. Well I reflect I I heard a brilliant talk by our colleague Noah Satat last week. And she said something just to say that Noah's the director. Noah Satat the first thing to say about her is that she's a rabbi, graduated But she also, as a side hustle, is the in charge of the Association for Civil Rights in Israel and a very influential, important person who worked for many years. Former director of Iraq money. And she she responded to what everybody wants in these talks, which is show us the hope, where's the hope? Give me the hope. And she said something brilliant and probably sti she's g when she comes and you interview her and she says this thing says, no, that's old news week Michael Marmer said that already. But she said something brilliant which was, you know, people overemphasize the hope thing. Because I'm paraphrasing obviously. She says, I gotta tell you I don't have hope every day. But here's what I do have every day. I have responsibility, I have agency. that's the thing that gets me up. You don't if you want, you know, again, the nice warm fuzzy feeling of a upper natum Tishab is not that kind of a day, I wanna tell you. Tishab'av you know, it is true that as the day of Tishaba unfolds ritually, it's been built in such a way those who are who put fill in on a regular basis will put them on later in the day. You are kind of you kind of lean in and then we have We have the haftarot of consolation. We we do a lot more consolation than we do the other because there's only a limited amount of hardcore grief that we can that we can put up with. Ours is not Ramadan. I know that you wanted me to give a nice, you know, upper natum ending. And I want to tell you, I don't think that's appropriate. Not appropriate for Tishab'av, not appropriate for the crisis that we're in, which is a very major crisis. But not being able to give you a message of a hope is not the same as paralysis. It's not the same saying, well therefore it's all lost. No. We maybe a good thing to do on Tishab'Av, whatever your your nutritional regime is on that day. Everybody does what they do. Maybe a good thing to do with Tishab'Av is to ask, what is the agency that I have? What is the capacity I have to do something in the world, and what matters to me most? That's an appropriate way of marking this day. Well, thank you, Michael. I actually take hope from listening to you and from learning and I think giving giving a thought to all those issues on Tishab is tremendously important, especially at this time. So thank you so much. It's great pleasure. Thank you for being in my office. And really conversations like this are exactly why we started this podcast. This podcast exists because we believe Israel can be better for all who live here and for all who care about it from afar. But that takes honest conversation and it takes partnership. So if this Conversations are important to you. 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