Latest / Integrate This! Ed Tech Podcast / Teaching Writing in the Age of AI: A Conversation with Brett Vogelsinger

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Teaching Writing in the Age of AI: A Conversation with Brett Vogelsinger · Integrate This! Ed Tech Podcast

0:00
Welcome to Integrate This, your go -to EdTech
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podcast where curiosity meets classroom innovation.
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Join your hosts, David Berner and Jeremy Mikla,
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as we explore the rapidly evolving world of educational
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technology. From game -changing tools to insightful
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conversations with today's top EdTech voices,
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we're here to help educators stay informed, inspired,
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and ready to innovate. So tune in, level up,
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and let's integrate this. Welcome to the Integrate
0:40
This EdTech podcast. Joining me as always is
0:44
David Berner. I'm Jeremy Mikla, and we have a
0:46
special guest here with us today. His name is
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Brett Vogelsinger. Am I saying that right, Brett?
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You are. Perfect. Just a little bit about Brett
0:55
here. Before we get into the interview, he is
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passionate about helping students write with
1:01
confidence and read voraciously. He teaches English
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classes to 10th grade students and AP Literature
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and Composition students each day in Bucks County,
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Pennsylvania. For two decades, he has taught
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eighth and ninth grade English. He loves talking
1:15
to teachers about how to make the classroom a
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meaningful, engaging, creative space for our
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students and how to reach them in ways that impact
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them for a lifetime. Brett's book, Artful AI
1:26
in Writing Instruction, was released just this
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past June, and we are super excited to have him
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join us on this episode of the Integrate This
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podcast. So welcome, Brett. You know, we're super,
1:40
super excited to be able to hopefully share some
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great insights to the audience that we have and
1:47
get to get to know what your book is about and
1:50
how you're using it to improve the lives and
1:52
education of students. Thanks, Jeremy. Happy
1:55
to be here. So Brett, I know Jeremy kind of went
1:59
over a couple things there, just giving your
2:01
background. But what was it that drew you into
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writing instruction? I mean, have you always
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been a writer and had a passion for that? And
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what was it that drew you into instruction with
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that? Yeah, I've always loved to write. From
2:19
the time I was a little kid, I was encouraged
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to write, given like, I remember in elementary
2:22
school, the blank books they would give us to
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sort of create your own stories and books. And
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I'm grateful for that, because it really helped
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me to value words, to gain some confidence as
2:32
a writer early on. And that continued with me
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all through high school and college. So I really
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went into teaching with the goal of being a teacher
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who writes. So my second year, I published my
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first article. But there was a big long gap between
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that and when I started writing for publication
2:49
again. But all that time, I've always made a
2:52
practice of writing with my students, and I've
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always enjoyed that. One thing that drew me to
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teaching in the first place was the joy of finding
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a place where I could apply creativity, where
3:02
I could be connected to other humans really well,
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and where I could also, my own love of learning
3:08
could kind of find a home. Like I've always been
3:09
a person that's just been curious and loved to
3:11
learn about things. So being able to connect
3:14
with others and try to spark that in others is
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a big part of what drew me to the field of education.
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So do you think, you know, obviously we can sense
3:23
already in just these couple of minutes your
3:25
passion that you have for writing. Do you think,
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was there a moment where you think there was
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or a person that kind of sparked that passion
3:33
for you or is it something that just kind of
3:35
gradually developed? I mean, my parents always
3:38
encouraged it, which I think was really cool.
3:40
They read to me as a kid and I learned to love
3:42
stories that way and wrote stories my whole K
3:46
through, well, not K, but probably second through
3:48
12. I remember my second grade teacher giving
3:50
me the opportunity to write stories from my own
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imagination and making a detective story in which
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the main character was a worm underground. Like
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just playing with ideas early on and having that,
4:03
having the adults in my life take notice of it
4:05
and care about it. meant a lot. So I hope to
4:08
do that for others as well. And then moving on
4:11
to high school, having teachers again took an
4:14
interest, pushed, critiqued my work. That was
4:18
really, really helpful. So yeah, certainly there
4:20
were standout teachers all the way through my
4:23
own education. I know we're going to get into
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the book, but like if you're just sitting around
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and you're kind of in your spare time and you're
4:30
just writing for your own enjoyment, what type
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of writing do you typically like to do? I've
4:37
always enjoyed poetry, although I don't say I
4:40
sit and do that on my spare time. I do it with
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students a lot. My first book was called Poetry
4:44
Pauses and it was all about how to engage with
4:47
poetry reading and writing in the classroom,
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not as a pursuit of its own, but to help them
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with writing skills that they could generalize
4:55
to all of their writing. So I think that's probably
4:57
one of the early genres and probably the one
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that I enjoy the most when I'm writing with students.
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If you asked me as a younger person, I would
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have said, I want to write a novel. I'm not sure
5:08
I want to anymore. But I've really enjoyed writing
5:12
nonfiction. OK. Yeah. And obviously, too, like
5:17
with your looking at more of the publication
5:20
side, like where you're actually you have that
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artful AI book. Is that something that you ever
5:28
envisioned writing or was it just like it just
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kind of came about based on? looking at AI, looking
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at what you were already doing, how did you start
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that process? Well, I mean, go back not too many
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years, and I don't think I could have envisioned
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that the underlying technology would exist. At
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least I'm not, I do want to say right up front,
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I'm not a technology guru who's like follows
5:53
that stuff. I certainly see on LinkedIn, there's
5:55
a lot of people that like every announcement
5:57
from Google or OpenAI is like, you know, an exciting
6:01
moment. That's not me at all. So in terms of
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did I envision myself writing a book that was
6:07
about ed tech? Not really. But this book is really
6:11
a book about writing. And I realized when AI
6:13
first came out that some of the people celebrating
6:15
it in education were people who didn't like writing,
6:20
who were eager to escape writing. And some of
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those were people with highly educated people
6:25
that I didn't think felt that way. And so I thought
6:28
it was really important to get a voice out there
6:30
of someone in the classroom. who loves to write,
6:33
who I think helps motivate students to love to
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write and get very much a book about writing
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instruction that incorporates AI as maybe an
6:43
unexpectedly helpful piece. So you know did like
6:49
you know were these ideas for writing a book
6:52
on writing instruction coming into your head
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prior to AI or Do you think AI helped either
6:59
put it on your radar or or perhaps like took
7:02
what your thoughts were and spun them off into
7:05
a new direction? I think AI challenged all of
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us to think about why we write in the first place.
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Writing is a struggle. It's not easy. It's iterative.
7:14
It takes time. And even if you love it, it's
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still a struggle the same way that someone who
7:19
loves exercise still you know, feels it when
7:21
they're having weight in the gym, right? So there's
7:24
still like a struggle involved. And so now we
7:26
had this escape hatch that, you know, maybe eliminated
7:29
for some people or they felt it would eliminate
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the struggle. So why should we do it anyway?
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Like, why is it worth it, especially for young
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people? And something I want to differentiate
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between is the writing that we have asked students
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to do in school is so different than the writing
7:44
adults are asked to do in the workplace. So sometimes
7:47
when adults talk about how much they're using
7:50
AI in the workplace, they're talking about a
7:52
very to write for them. And we're limiting it
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to that right now. They're talking about a very
7:57
different animal, because the writing they're
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asked to do in the workplace is business writing,
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it tends to be pretty boring, even more formulaic
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than what students are asked to do in school.
8:06
And we're not very technical, right? Yes. Yeah.
8:10
And we're not trying to build a person, you know,
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at that point, at the workplace isn't striving
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to do that. So I'm forgetting your original question,
8:19
but I want to loop back to the idea that it's
8:21
really about reckoning with why we write in school
8:25
and why we write as humans in the first place.
8:29
And why the term artful? Was there something
8:33
that you wanted to convey with that term in the
8:36
context of AI and writing? I think it's a little
8:39
bit of an unexpected word to include. And I will
8:43
in a minute reveal the original title, the working
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title I had going before we landed on this one.
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But one of the opening chapters, I referenced
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a New Yorker essay about how AI will not create
8:54
art. And the writer who's a writer whose fiction
8:57
I love is talking about how art is an assemblance
9:03
of choices and decisions. that a human makes,
9:07
everything down to the last word, the last brushstroke,
9:09
all these decisions and choices. And when you
9:12
take that away, he's saying, when you take away
9:14
that, you take away what makes art. And I'd agree,
9:17
like something created exclusively by AI, I agree
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with him completely on that. My challenge in
9:23
the book and my challenge in the classroom has
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been, can we use some of the capabilities and
9:28
strengths of AI to help students make better
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choices as artists in their writing when they
9:34
come to that? palette or page. And I think we
9:38
can. I'm excited about that. And I've learned
9:40
a lot by listening to students, by experimenting,
9:42
by discussing and reflecting on what we're doing
9:45
with AI. All in an environment where, you know,
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it's been mostly on my school laptops, it's blocked
9:51
presently. Like I haven't, main LLMs are blocked.
9:54
So I've been doing it in an environment where
9:56
kids have easy access at home, no access really
10:00
at school. And then they have a teacher in the
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middle who's trying to find like a middle ground.
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So yeah, I wanted to help them to make good decisions,
10:07
which is really the basis of what makes art an
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abundance of decisions. Yeah, that's interesting
10:14
because, you know, I think when most people,
10:17
at least when I work with teachers in kind of
10:19
the English language arts, field. They don't
10:23
approach it necessarily, at least the incorporation
10:26
of AI as being an artful process. They go straight
10:30
into, you know, this is cheating. This is plagiarism,
10:34
you know, and like, you know, and I do see why
10:38
because of that. There are schools that tend
10:40
to ban the use of the technology and, you know,
10:44
at the same time, you know, kids do, like you
10:46
had mentioned, have access to many of these different
10:49
technologies outside of the classroom that they
10:51
still are going to. So I guess kind of the question
10:56
that I am coming to is, do you think that there's
11:00
a shift that needs to take place or is it taking
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place that will bring the acceptance of use of
11:08
AI in the process without it turning over all
11:12
creative works to AI? And the role of the human
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is still important in that? I don't know, is
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that a question or is that just a rambling? I
11:23
feel optimistic that that's possible. I think
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it's going to take some intentions and slowing
11:28
down some reflection. I want to start using the
11:32
phrase that we need to be ruthlessly reflective
11:34
in our use of this technology. As long as we're
11:37
doing that and thinking about did this add something
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to my process, not just my product? Did it replace
11:44
me or did it push me? If we get kids in the habit
11:48
of asking those kinds of questions, I feel really
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optimistic that it will absolutely be part of
11:53
a bigger creative process for people. Go ahead.
11:58
No, I was gonna say, David and I have had a lot
12:00
of conversations about using AI in a way, AI
12:05
can be used to either be counterproductive or
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to allow... counterproductive struggle or productive
12:15
struggle. And, you know, I think about it with
12:19
writing and even with artistic works in the same
12:21
way, is that, yes, we can offload all of our,
12:25
you know, hardest thinking moments to AI and
12:28
push that easy button. But then what experience
12:31
are we getting out of that? But at the same time,
12:33
if AI could be used to challenge our thinking
12:35
and to challenge our writing and to help us with
12:38
that process to improve the product, you know,
12:41
I definitely think that there's value in there
12:44
as well. And I think it's like all other types
12:45
of learning where In order for true learning
12:49
to take place, there's got to be some sort of
12:51
a productive struggle that takes place in the
12:53
mind of that learner. Yeah. And when you say
12:56
process and product are something everybody is
12:59
talking about with this right now, right? Because
13:01
what it first promised to do is deliver a smoother
13:05
product, a nice, clean text that's perfect, but
13:12
soulless, as a lot of people describe it. At
13:15
least in the beginning, that might change over
13:16
time. But I want to say that if we're going to
13:19
use it to impact a finished product, and I'm
13:22
talking about writing again, primarily, I know
13:24
there's all sorts of other products it can help
13:26
create, then the student better be able to explain
13:30
why it's better than theirs, how it's better
13:33
than their own work without the AI. And it better
13:36
not be stealing their voice or taking away...
13:39
what they bring to the table and replacing it
13:42
with something that's not even human. So that's
13:44
where I mean the reflection has to come in. Like
13:45
so they could say oh the product is better in
13:47
the end but can they explain how and why and
13:50
did they make choices or did it just you know
13:52
polish it up and deliver it for them. There's
13:54
a big difference in those two scenarios. So do
13:57
you think there's a shift that needs to take
13:59
place with teachers in the assessment of written
14:01
work that goes along with that instead of maybe
14:05
focusing solely on the product? that final result,
14:09
is it more about the learning that takes place
14:11
in the process and being transparent with the
14:14
AI use along the way? That's not a new idea that
14:16
we need to move away from the product. We value
14:19
the product maybe too much and not the process
14:21
enough. That's certainly been something in the
14:24
ELA world that we've been working on for a while
14:27
and a lot of people talk about. So that part
14:30
of the conversation is not new to us as English
14:32
teachers, for sure. are we valuing, and how do
14:36
we value the process of the product, especially
14:38
when value is often interpreted by students to
14:40
mean grades, and that's what gets us last on
14:42
the product. So I think, yeah, that's a big question.
14:45
We need to articulate why we're asking students
14:47
to do different steps. I hear a lot of people
14:50
talking about the college professors who are
14:53
like, well, I have to go back entirely to blue
14:54
books. I've heard some teachers I respect a lot
14:59
saying, like, everything needs to be written
15:01
in class now. It all has to be done in the classroom.
15:04
And I push back on that a little bit because
15:06
I feel as a writer I grew so much when I had
15:08
this moment of solitude to do my best work outside
15:10
of the classroom. So I guess I just want to say
15:13
that like maybe a more nuanced way to look at
15:16
that is can we teach and discuss and learn together
15:21
the nuances of why it pays to abstain from AI
15:27
at certain parts of our process and why it pays
15:30
to engage it at other parts of our process. Are
15:33
kids going to cheat and circumvent that? I mean,
15:36
some will, of course. But I have some students
15:38
who are just as vehemently opposed to AI having
15:41
any part of their writing as some of the most
15:44
vehemently opposed teachers are. Like I have
15:45
some of those in my class, too. So it's OK that
15:48
we differ a little bit, as long as we're being
15:51
transparent about it and we're seeing the growth
15:54
of the student, not just the products that are
15:57
created by something that's not the student,
15:59
a misrepresentation, if you will. Sure. David,
16:02
one more and then I'll kind of shift us back
16:03
onto track, I promise. And Brett, you teased
16:07
us a little bit about what your working title
16:10
of the book was. And I saw that you had shared
16:13
it in some of our notes that we had had back
16:15
and forth. But why don't you tell us, did this
16:19
working title that you had kind of like help
16:21
precipitate a shift in your thinking towards
16:24
the use of AI in writing? A little bit. My working
16:28
title that I pitched to the publisher was writing
16:33
with the enemy. And I wanted it to, well, first
16:36
I was playing with the old movie, Sleeping with
16:38
the Enemy, but I also wanted to go with the idea
16:43
that a lot of my closest colleagues saw it as
16:46
an enemy out of the gate. I think I did too.
16:50
And then I saw, is it possible with this enemy
16:53
existing, this thing that's gonna do your thinking
16:56
for you, is it possible to use it in some other
17:00
way? Now, as I got writing, I actually found
17:02
more and more possibility for that and my own.
17:05
So the shift that happened, I began to see it
17:08
less as an enemy and more as a relationship.
17:12
We have to be thoughtful about how we build.
17:15
I compare that in the book to smartphones, which
17:17
one of the writers that I quote said, we all
17:20
entered this relationship with our phones without
17:22
thinking about what we wanted that relationship
17:23
to be. I'm trying to be conscious this time of
17:26
choosing that and teach others how to do the
17:28
same. What kind of relationship do I want with
17:30
this? But ultimately, the title Artful AI also,
17:34
I came across that idea of that essay about art
17:37
that I talked about from the New Yorker, Ted
17:40
Chiang. And that impacted my early part of the
17:44
book. So that was part of the reason it changed.
17:46
The other part is the publisher was like, let's
17:49
make sure we invite an entire audience. not only
17:53
the people who vehemently see it as an enemy
17:55
might not want your book anyway and the people
17:57
who see it as like wonderfully possible full
18:00
of possibility might dislike that title so here
18:04
we are artful yeah and i i appreciate your perspective
18:10
a lot because you had mentioned earlier like
18:13
you know on linkedin you see there there's an
18:15
overwhelming amount of information and there's
18:17
updates and there's all sorts of people that
18:20
are sharing a lot of great resources and I look
18:23
at all those and I'm more in this space just
18:26
like Jeremy is. But what I really like is the
18:28
fact that you have a passion of writing and writing
18:33
instruction and so it's a really good example
18:36
because we have so many people at our schools
18:38
that are already experts in an area and you're
18:42
clearly applying and thinking about your expertise.
18:47
and how AI is impacting that and in what ways
18:50
can you use it and what ways should you be aware
18:52
or guard against using it, you know, in certain
18:55
scenarios. And so it's a really good example
18:58
of, like, you don't have to be a tech expert.
19:02
You already are an expert in a particular area.
19:05
And then it's applying some of those things that
19:08
come out to that and not necessarily feeling
19:11
like you've got to, you know, take in all this
19:13
AI information at once. As far as if you're thinking
19:18
about other teachers and some of the steps that
19:20
you would give to teachers that, you know, some
19:26
examples, what examples could you give them of
19:28
steps they could take without having to become
19:30
a tech expert? I think number one is talk to
19:34
students about this since they're already using
19:36
it. I don't think they're experts in using it.
19:39
They're using it kind of clumsily the same way
19:40
they're not experts in any Google searching or
19:44
like just because they use it a lot or get addicted
19:47
to something doesn't mean they're like excellent
19:49
at it and So sorry back up. That's not Talk to
19:54
students Because some of them are finding interesting
19:57
ways and they can articulate if they know you're
19:59
willing and open to listen to them about this
20:02
Instead of like shutting it down or looking at
20:04
them with suspicion immediately They will open
20:09
up and share some really interesting things.
20:11
They're discovering and you'll learn about them
20:13
as writers even if you don't like how they're
20:15
using it or you don't like what you hear you
20:18
will learn about them as writers and how they
20:19
see themselves as writers and the the the gaps
20:23
in their how how they perceive their own gaps
20:28
and what they're able to do independently so
20:29
i've learned so much about my students and i
20:32
i always tell people some of my best conversations
20:34
about writing process and about student voice
20:38
have you know like how you sound and what makes
20:40
your writing different than my writing that's
20:43
come about since AI because we have this sort
20:46
of perfect but washed writing that's available
20:50
to us at our fingertips. The second thing I would
20:54
say is one of the activities in the book is called
20:56
is it cheating and I think that's an activity
20:59
anybody can do. Take an old prompt you don't
21:01
plan to assign and start live doing things live
21:04
with AI on the screen, big screen in the front
21:07
of the room. while students write about two sentences,
21:10
is that what I just did cheating or not? And
21:13
just two sentences that are reasoning with pencil
21:15
and paper, like they're gonna go old school on
21:17
that. And the idea is like, you'll be surprised
21:20
at how much consensus you'll reach with your
21:22
students, just showing five different things.
21:25
If I brainstorm, and that's all I do, and then
21:27
I go, right, is that cheating? What if I share
21:29
my brainstorm and then ask it for what gaps,
21:34
what else should I think about including in this
21:35
list? Is that cheating? What if I have it write
21:39
it for me, and then I go and write my own? Obviously
21:44
turning in the work that's wholesale created
21:46
is cheating, but what about these nuances? Even
21:50
classes that are not particularly engaged classes
21:52
can get really engaged in that conversation,
21:54
and you'll be surprised at how often they feel
21:58
the same about details that you feel. In the
22:01
meantime, you're learning with them about the
22:03
different approaches. Can I give you one more
22:07
example? I think this taught me a lot and I learned
22:09
this one from John Spencer from Oregon who talks
22:14
about this quite a bit. But he talks about how
22:18
people are like, oh, it's so good at brainstorming.
22:20
It's so good at coming up with ideas. But why
22:23
not pause, get your list together first. Then
22:26
get a list from the AI or give it your list and
22:29
ask for those gaps, like I said. And then don't
22:31
forget step three. What else do you have now?
22:35
Now it's pushing you. You had your original ideas.
22:38
You had the AI's ideas. You might pull two or
22:40
three from there that you like. But what are
22:42
the two or three more that come out of your own
22:44
head after that? Or start narrowing your topic.
22:47
You're getting more specific after that. Way
22:50
better than having AI outsource your ideation
22:54
for you, right? Now your ideation is much more
22:57
interesting because AI exists. Yeah, and when
23:01
I when I saw you present in that brief amount
23:03
of time that we at ISTE that we were actually
23:06
able to connect there And you had a group of
23:09
people around you and I and I had seen this before
23:13
and I and I really picked up on it and I think
23:15
you're getting to that here is that you know,
23:19
there's there's a Workflow kind of here where
23:22
you start with the human you go to the AI, you
23:27
get some sort of a feedback or input to the AI,
23:30
and then you return back to the human again.
23:32
So it's like H -A -H, you know? And it seems
23:36
to me like that's the loop here that you're really
23:38
talking about that can be kind of beneficial,
23:42
I think, in the creative process and in the writing
23:45
process as well, as well as, you know, other
23:47
ways that our teachers or students might choose
23:50
to use AI in a way that can I think to go back
23:54
to that productive struggle, right, is in the
23:57
way that's gonna lead to an enhanced process,
24:00
right, because you have that thought partner
24:02
that's with you along the way, and that you don't
24:05
have to wait to get the feedback from the teacher
24:07
necessarily all of the time. And I think there's
24:10
a question here following, so I'll try to get
24:12
to that. It kind of also makes me think like
24:18
you talked about using AI to mine authentic human
24:21
ideas. So what do you think that that might look
24:24
like in a real classroom activity? Yeah, I think
24:28
beyond just the brainstorming, like, yeah, right.
24:31
I think that example I gave is one example of
24:33
how that could happen early in the process. But
24:34
my book is organized by the writing process.
24:37
By the way, each chapter also has an interview
24:39
with a teacher that's not me and an interview
24:42
with a student in the in the piece, too. So they
24:44
talk about possibilities for AI that they've
24:47
been trying in that writing process. But another
24:50
specific example, again, the first thing that
24:53
everyone knew about when ChatGBT sort of got
24:56
our attention was that it could draft a whole,
24:58
you know, five -paragraph essay, the traditional
25:00
list due for us to do, which that's a whole other
25:03
can of words. We should be going beyond that
25:05
in high school, that's for sure. But it could
25:07
do it so quickly. It could render a draft really
25:10
quickly, which made me begin to get curious.
25:13
What if Drafting didn't have to only be a cheat.
25:17
What if after you wrote, what if we did take
25:19
time to handwrite our draft the first time in
25:21
class or write it on a laptop that had no AI
25:24
access? Who knows how long that'll even be a
25:27
reality? Let's do that first. Let's get our ideas
25:30
down first. And then let's let the AI draft it.
25:33
And our purpose is not to be, oh, wow, it sounds
25:36
so much more polished or learned than I am. Because
25:39
that's what a lot of kids' first reaction is.
25:41
They're like humbled by it. Oh, I don't know.
25:44
No, that's not our purpose. Our purpose is, what
25:46
directions did it take that you didn't think
25:50
about? What are some of the examples it gave?
25:53
What are some of the places it repeated itself?
25:56
Are you repeating yourself in your draft? What
25:58
are some places it went deeper than you went?
26:00
How could you model that and take your own ideas
26:02
deeper? So like we could hold up two drafts,
26:04
one human and one AI generated, maybe even ask
26:06
this question. Is there a phrase or a sentence
26:09
starter that you loved that made it sound really
26:12
professional? and learn it. Could you take that
26:14
sentence starter and weave it into one of your
26:16
sentences? I guess my point here is we could
26:20
use even the easiest cheat capability of an AI
26:24
tool and say, let's apply it in a way that isn't
26:28
cheating, a way that's actually pushing us to
26:31
keep going with our own ideas. So that's kind
26:34
of what I'm saying. Let's always examine that
26:36
possibility that the cheating is low -hanging
26:40
fruit, and it's easily available, but it's not
26:42
the only thing you can do with it, even if AI
26:44
is generating your draft. And then can I give
26:47
just one more little example? The other thing
26:49
that I've seen some students that are even tough
26:51
to engage in writing instruction, if I give them
26:55
the option of saying, hey, ask AI, and some tools
26:58
do this specifically as well, to just give you
27:01
like three rewordings of a sentence you're not
27:04
happy with, a sentence in your draft, give it
27:06
three rewordings, If you're going to use it wholesale
27:09
from that, I want to know it. I want you to credit
27:11
that that came from an AI. But I also want you
27:14
to reflect on why you thought that captured your
27:17
idea better than that original sentence. So now
27:20
on a sentence level, we worked with this a little
27:22
bit and we reflected on it too. And my hope is
27:26
that we're gaining some things like vocabulary
27:27
and syntax from looking at those models. We made
27:31
decisions as a writer as well. We looked at those
27:33
three options and thought about which one might
27:35
be best. Well, I think that really does a lot
27:38
to reinforce the reflective nature of your writing
27:40
Because it is forcing you to consider this is
27:43
better than I could have done on my own And I
27:46
could tell you why it's better than what I did
27:48
on my ass. That's it And and sometimes I'll talk
27:52
it's it's not always better than what you did
27:54
on your own because you're a 10th grader and
27:56
I want to hear 10th grade thoughts in 10th grade
27:58
English class like and This isn't even a person.
28:01
This isn't even a person. It's a an accumulation
28:04
of what people put out there. And it comes out
28:08
pretty bland. That's the other thing. I think
28:09
we should sometimes be reading some of what AI
28:12
creates and looking at its weaknesses as students,
28:14
because they're blinded sometimes by the sheen
28:17
that's on top. Sorry, go ahead. Yeah, it's interesting
28:21
you mention that, because sometimes I think we're
28:23
mesmerized by how fast it can do something. But
28:26
then just because it did it really fast doesn't
28:29
mean that it actually is good. Right. The standard
28:33
that maybe you have, maybe the student has or
28:36
the teacher has, it's kind of been fascinating
28:39
to watch that aspect of it. But do you think
28:42
we're starting to circle back to something different
28:44
here where some of the models that are released
28:47
now actually do pause before they start to generate
28:51
the response and they might even pause at another
28:54
point in there. So it's. Granted, it's still
28:58
way faster than what we would do on our own.
29:00
But I think they're trying to at least acknowledge,
29:03
and I'm not trying to give AI any sort of human
29:06
attributes, but it's thinking, right? And so
29:10
it's pausing to kind of let you know that it's
29:13
trying to make sure that what it's saying is
29:16
going to be down the right path. I don't know.
29:19
I wonder. I don't know if it's the people behind
29:22
it or not. thinking about students and what message
29:26
it sends. I don't know that the people designing
29:28
the LLA have that on their minds. It's probably
29:32
true. It's pausing to make you think that it's
29:35
more contemplative than it actually is. Yes,
29:37
exactly. As far as like when you've had conversations
29:43
with educators, is there any lessons or ideas
29:47
from the book that surprise educators when they
29:49
try it? I think it just speaking generally, like
29:54
I've had a couple of them so far. I think the,
29:57
is it cheating? One is super easy to do. And
29:59
I think they're surprised when students actually
30:01
want to talk about that and the academic integrity
30:04
aspect of it, because we shouldn't just be like
30:06
saying, let's use this now without some really
30:09
meaty conversations about, you know, what are
30:12
the complications with this? What are the things
30:15
people talk about that adults don't all agree
30:17
on? So I think that one is, is one that I think
30:19
people are surprised at a how easy it is to do.
30:22
and how cool the discussion becomes when the
30:25
kids start talking about, is that little nuance
30:27
of what I'm doing with the cheating? Is this
30:28
little nuance? Overall, I think there were people
30:33
that knew my work that were afraid when I came
30:38
out with this book that I went to the dark side.
30:41
Absolutely. I could name you the people that
30:43
were like, oh, Brett, what are you doing? Yeah,
30:46
the teachers down the hallway from you, right?
30:47
Some of them. Yeah. Yeah, but but also the ones
30:50
who like I know from online and who loved poetry
30:52
pauses and I'm grateful that I can name people
30:56
now who have like read the book and they're like
30:59
No, like I seriously get and they're they're
31:03
They're happy with what they're finding within
31:05
it and I was relieved by that because it was
31:07
a scarier book to write than my first one and
31:09
I wanted to be true to that the writing teacher
31:12
not not handing over sort of the special precious
31:17
things about what writing instruction can be
31:19
to a machine. So let's touch on the academic
31:24
integrity here, which we kind of have been a
31:26
little bit, but just maybe a different question
31:29
towards it. And it comes from the idea of being
31:32
a teacher and working directly with students.
31:35
So how do you try to help your students use generative
31:39
AI ethically while still fostering them to be
31:43
independent thinkers and writers? Yeah, I think
31:46
one of the big things is I still very much center
31:49
a writer's notebook in class and having lots
31:51
of low stakes time to write with pen or pencil,
31:54
to sketch, to explore and organize things on
31:57
paper. I think that's really important. One,
32:01
it gives us a physical object to like leave the
32:03
class with that we've sort of captured and distilled
32:05
our thinking in. But it also, I mean, there's
32:08
so much research that shows how good that is
32:10
for our brains in developing the synapses and
32:12
like making stuff work up there. So I wanna make
32:14
sure that we always center that in the classroom.
32:17
And those are frequent low stakes writing pieces
32:20
that we're doing in class almost every day. That's
32:23
a lot different than me saying blue book only.
32:26
We're only gonna test you with your handwritten
32:28
stuff and you at a solo desk. Rather I'm saying.
32:32
we're going to have you work without screens
32:34
and without AI sometimes when we're writing and
32:37
for different stages in this writing process.
32:40
The other thing I'm really interested in exploring
32:43
as I move forward this year is whether we could
32:46
actually, we will always need to have full scale
32:50
writing projects that go from pre -writing to,
32:53
you know, the end published turned in result.
32:55
But I'm also wondering whether this can afford
32:58
us opportunities to get more repeated practice
33:01
in let's say revision. If we use AI with parts
33:04
of draft, and then we get to working on revision,
33:07
could we get like three practices in revision
33:09
before our next big essay, rather than only practicing
33:13
when we reel around to the revision part of the
33:16
next big project? I'm gonna play with that this
33:19
year. I don't have that all figured out yet,
33:21
but I'm excited to see whether that's another
33:23
way we could be. Now we're working on a student's
33:26
independent work with revision, which is away
33:27
from the AI, but we used AI to get to it quicker
33:30
so we get more repeated practice with it. Does
33:32
that make sense? I'm kind of, I'm looking to
33:34
play with that a little bit. Yeah, and it's nice
33:37
to hear kind of how you're thinking about taking
33:40
some of the ideas that you even wrote about and
33:42
now, you know, making them practical and useful
33:45
for classroom teachers and for students ultimately
33:48
in the things that they create. Yeah. Thanks.
33:54
I hope so. So, Brett, if you're looking at students
34:00
and the ways that they're engaging with AI, you
34:03
talked about this a little bit, right? Like the
34:06
good ways that it can be used to maybe push along
34:10
their own thoughts and still remain involved
34:13
in the process of writing. Or you can just completely
34:17
offload that responsibility and you lose some
34:20
of that. But what are some ways that you think
34:22
that AI can boost creativity for student writers?
34:26
And I would just say writers in general, really.
34:29
One activity I talk about in the book a little
34:31
is that we can push students to write beyond
34:34
what AI creates on a topic. So let's say you've
34:38
studied a topic deeply. And I'm going to go beyond
34:39
just English class here. So I won't use the example
34:42
from the book, which is a literature example.
34:44
Let's say you've studied meiosis and mitosis
34:48
in biology class, which I haven't studied in
34:50
a long time. I kind of forget something with
34:52
cells transferring nutrients. But let's say you've
34:57
studied that in depth. You're at the end of a
34:59
unit. Why not have the teacher create something
35:02
via AI that's like, explain meiosis and mitosis?
35:05
And you could tweak it and edit it before you
35:06
give it to kids if you want to take something
35:08
out if you need to. But let's say you give it
35:10
that and say, OK, guys, here's what what literally
35:13
everybody knows about meiosis and mitosis, like
35:16
it's pulling from just like this great big blob
35:18
of human knowledge, and it's putting it in here.
35:22
I want you to think back to our labs. I want
35:25
you to think back to our discussions in class,
35:29
any illustrations or comparisons I made in class,
35:32
or that you could make on the spot in your writing,
35:34
and take this bland piece of writing, delete
35:38
anything you want to delete, add anything you
35:40
want to add, color code your words differently
35:43
than the words that they're sticking around from
35:44
that original. And I'm only grading you on your
35:47
words and what's in that color. And I want to
35:49
see where you can push deeper and make this more
35:52
interesting and tell a little story about it.
35:55
And I want you to push beyond the sort of boring
36:01
but efficient version that AI created. Wow, I
36:07
think that's pretty cool. yours different than
36:11
the kid next to you when you explain meiosis
36:13
and mitosis. You all have to have the same facts,
36:16
but what makes your explanation sound different
36:18
in making you? Like that's a really cool activity
36:21
that could get to the finer points of what they
36:23
know about the topic in assessing that, but also
36:26
push students as writers in a classroom outside
36:29
of English class. Think it also displays their
36:32
internalization for the content that the subject
36:34
that they're studying Yeah, and in what made
36:37
it personally meaningful to them that they can
36:41
then you know, maybe used to even help remember,
36:43
like us, you know, 20, 30, I'm not going to say
36:46
how many years later, when we were last in that
36:48
biology classroom, that, you know, like, oh,
36:51
yeah, you know, I remember that cell division.
36:54
And, you know, then it comes back together again,
36:56
whatever that is. But, you know, it makes it
36:59
definitely a stronger connection, which leads
37:00
to that reinforced learning, which is, I think,
37:04
part of that goal also. Contrast that with the
37:07
old multiple choice test or the old short essay
37:09
test. that would have had you just regurgitating
37:13
what AI could create like that anyway. That's
37:16
what it did. And maybe that was last year, but
37:18
this is a cool opportunity to say, no, the test
37:21
is take that and go farther with it because I
37:24
know you learned it better than that or deeper
37:26
than that. Yeah. And it definitely goes beyond
37:28
those $0 .25 blue books that you had to buy in
37:31
the bookstore on campus to bring into a test.
37:36
Those were days, I remember that. I bet David
37:39
doesn't though, he's a little younger. And I
37:42
like to make fun of him for that sometimes. I
37:46
never used the blue book either, sorry. In the
37:58
book, you talk about strategies for building
38:01
a healthy relationship with AI. What do you kind
38:04
of mean by building a healthy relationship? Yeah,
38:09
I'm pulling this from a book, the last name of
38:12
the author is Price, but it's called How to Break
38:14
Up with Your Phone. And I mentioned earlier her
38:17
point was we all entered pretty intimate close
38:21
relationships with phones without thinking about
38:23
it. And then we had engineers designing pretty
38:25
addictive elements to those phones. And next
38:28
thing you know, we spend more time with our phone
38:30
than we do with our closest loved ones. We're
38:32
not really careful about it. And it's hard to
38:33
break that. So I'm trying to, even as someone
38:38
who writes about AI, like one thing I'm trying
38:39
to do, and I'm going to talk to kids about this
38:42
and this comparison with the phones that I just
38:44
shared with you. I'm making sure I don't foster
38:48
a reliance on it, because I really do take more
38:51
pride in being able to do things on my own and
38:53
think for myself. I love that AI is there for
38:57
me, and there's times that I love using it, and
39:00
what it creates is like, that's really cool.
39:02
But I'm also being consciously choosing not to
39:05
use it for some things when I could, just to
39:08
keep my muscle strong in that area. And so I'm
39:11
now making more decisions about what are the
39:14
muscles I wanna keep strong, what are the ones
39:15
I don't mind, the pedatrophies, you know? Now,
39:18
that's a lot to ask of a 15 -year -old, good
39:20
grief. But I think... Modeling that I'm thinking
39:24
that way and that adults have the capacity to
39:27
think that way about technology is important.
39:30
So I'm also making the conscious decision not
39:34
to take a deep dive on every announcement the
39:36
big tech companies come out with. I'm distancing
39:40
myself enough so that I don't wake up every morning
39:42
thinking about AI. That happened a few times
39:45
and I'm like, I don't like that. Nope, not doing
39:46
it. That's what I mean by determining what kind
39:50
of proximity or distance I want from this technology
39:53
in my everyday routines So you weren't there
39:59
like last week when open AI came out with chat
40:03
GPT 5 .0 and we're trying to determine the nuances
40:07
between that in the previous model I honestly
40:09
don't care. I don't care like I'm I'm taking
40:13
up I deciding to take a different view of that
40:15
and like Like you said earlier, what can I do
40:19
with writing with LLMs? The LLMs will keep changing,
40:22
but the principles behind that won't. I mean,
40:32
I do pay attention to that. And like, I'm, you
40:35
know, watch that as Jeremy mentioned. Yeah, I
40:37
don't mean to insult you if you do. I just think
40:39
that's my relationship. Yeah, I think no, it's
40:42
a good point, though, because I think that one
40:44
of the things that I noticed right away, right,
40:47
is that not that there wasn't like merit in using
40:50
the old models. But what we see right now is
40:53
that all of those old models that they had are
40:57
now like Chad GPT -4O, which is like the four
41:01
Omni, that's now pushed to what is called like
41:04
their legacy model. And you can't even access
41:06
it unless you go to the settings. So now it's
41:08
just like Chad GPT -5. So, you know, and, you
41:12
know, you brought up the phone thing and it's
41:14
kind of, the parallels are a little bit interesting,
41:16
right? Because like every, is it every year,
41:19
every two years, right? We get a new iPhone and
41:21
there's new iteration, but I don't know how many
41:24
changes actually take place. but it's still a
41:28
fascinating thing to watch. So therefore, here's
41:31
a really hard question for you. If we talked
41:34
about AI in five years, how do you think AI will
41:37
have impacted writing instruction in the next
41:41
five years? Do you think that we'll stay along
41:44
this plane of kind of where we're at and more
41:48
so honing the relationship with it? not these,
41:52
you know, massive changes that continue or do
41:55
you kind of predict that? Maybe you don't even
41:58
know maybe it's just like who knows, you know,
42:01
I think I am hopeful that it will we will continue
42:07
to talk about why Writing is worth the effort
42:09
and the struggle why writing free of it is and
42:12
why writing with it is it's still gonna be a
42:14
struggle to write really interesting things even
42:16
with AI that's not gonna change so I hope that
42:19
we're able to reflect on that. But more realistically,
42:23
I think it's going to be used an awful lot for
42:25
feedback. And I hope that doesn't turn into grading,
42:28
those two things are different, but I think students
42:31
will be getting AI generated feedback in their
42:34
lives a lot. And so in five years, I hope, if
42:40
we do it right, I hope that that feedback is
42:44
leading to human conversations. Jen Roberts,
42:47
one of the teachers that I interviewed in the
42:48
book. talks about how using feedback tools that
42:51
AI generates feedback. She then, students kind
42:55
of like it because they didn't have to share
42:56
with a human first and then together with her
42:58
they're critiquing the feedback. Takes a little
43:00
bit off of her plate, she doesn't have to generate
43:02
it all, but they're saying which of these points
43:05
that it's saying is most important? Which ones
43:07
do you disagree with? You're still the human
43:09
author, you get to decide. I hope that when students
43:14
are confronted with more and more AI generated
43:16
feedback and I think that's going to happen.
43:18
I hope that it leads to interesting human conversations
43:22
that we can build relationships around. What
43:27
I hope it doesn't do, you know, the dystopian
43:31
loop is like the students writing with AI, they're
43:34
getting feedback with the AI, like no humans
43:35
doing anything. It's like yucky mess. So I hope
43:39
it doesn't decrease motivation for students to
43:42
write because they feel they're getting less
43:44
human attention to their writing. I started our
43:47
conversation with that today. It was the attention
43:49
from adults that helped me to keep growing in
43:52
that way. And I hope that we don't lose that,
43:54
that we can figure out ways that that increase
43:56
in feedback from AI will lead to better quality
44:01
and maybe more frequent attention from adults.
44:05
And I hope in the next five years, too, that
44:08
we don't lose that relationship piece between
44:10
a teacher and a student, which I think drives
44:13
at the heart of what you're saying, you know,
44:14
is that it's much more personal and meaningful
44:17
to that student to be able to hear it from their
44:19
teacher than then always from the bot trying
44:22
to tell them, you know, hey, you're doing this
44:25
part of your sentence wrong. And, you know, and
44:28
so I think that just goes back to I think just
44:31
good quality teaching. And why I don't think
44:33
we'll lose teachers is because it has to start
44:35
with that relationships that you build with your
44:37
students and then nurture and maintain them in
44:40
those positive ways to want them to keep learning
44:43
from you and in your courses. Well, we can interview
44:49
you in five years and we'll see how things have
44:52
changed. Hopefully I haven't collapsed under
44:56
the weight of it all. Yeah, we might have to
44:59
meet you in the Matrix to do that. Let's end
45:05
this part here. We're gonna try something new
45:08
here in just a minute, but let's, one more question
45:11
here about, you know, is there one misconception,
45:14
and maybe there's more than one, but in your
45:16
mind, what's one misconception about AI in the
45:20
classroom that you wish would just disappear?
45:23
I think that the expression using AI is used
45:27
so broadly. I wish we could be more nuanced in
45:30
our word choice when we talk about it. So I want
45:33
the misconception that all using AI is cheating.
45:37
I don't think that's true. And I think we need
45:40
to identify how AI is being used, with what purpose,
45:45
with what reflection afterwards. So that over
45:49
broad term of the student used AI, I'd like to
45:52
see that sort of expire and the conversation
45:55
to become more nuanced. Awesome. Well, we're
45:59
going to try something here to to close out our
46:02
episode with here that we haven't done with another
46:04
guest here. So you're you're being our guinea
46:06
pig. I hope that's OK. Sure. And I just thought
46:09
these were great ideas as I was trying to practice
46:12
some of my own, you know, use of AI to to help
46:16
me with. I gave AI some ideas for questions that
46:20
we wanted to do, but then help me write and rewrite
46:24
and reword and make it sound more like a natural
46:28
flowing question than what my brain sometimes
46:30
will come up with. And it suggested that we try
46:34
a lightning round of fun, quick hit questions.
46:38
So are you ready to give this a go? I think so.
46:41
Okay, David, let's let's try alternating here
46:44
too if we can okay, okay Are we is it are these
46:47
like this is like a couple words to a sentence
46:50
or two answers, right? Yep Yep, and and and that's
46:53
it and then we move on to the next one. All right
46:55
All right, Brett one word to describe AI and
46:59
education right now Wild The wildest but that's
47:06
three words so wild All right. Favorite writing
47:10
prompt that you've ever given students? Write
47:14
about an object that shows up in a surprising
47:16
place based on a poem called The Arm, in which
47:21
the speaker finds a doll's arm floating in a
47:23
pond. So try something like that. Write about
47:25
something that's totally in the wrong place and
47:28
go. Coffee, tea, or something stronger when you're
47:33
writing? Coffee. First book you remember loving
47:38
as a student? Where the Red Fern Grows in probably
47:43
fourth grade, and I think it made me cry. That's
47:45
probably why I remember it at the end. I think
47:48
that's a first memory for a lot of us. Yeah,
47:51
traumatizing, but so good. Yeah, and traumatizing.
47:55
Your dream co -author, alive or dead? So since
47:58
I'm writing about education now and not novels
48:01
and things. I think Lin -Manuel Miranda would
48:04
be really fun to write an education book with,
48:07
because I think his eye as a reader and a writer
48:10
and a creative person is just so interesting,
48:13
and he worked as a substitute teacher, so he'd
48:15
be fun. Oh, I didn't know that. Yeah, interesting.
48:20
Okay, if AI could do one totally unrealistic
48:22
thing for you as a teacher, which would you wish
48:25
for? I wish... And maybe this isn't so unrealistic.
48:34
I wish that when I was teaching to a particular
48:37
standard in class, here's my vision, if it could
48:39
give me a little email alert that said, hey,
48:42
this thing you're working on, these three kids
48:44
struggled with it last time they took assessments
48:46
on that. I don't have that yet. And I would,
48:49
I think that would be great. It's not, it's,
48:51
it's like an amalgamation of all the data and
48:53
just like puts it in front of me and something
48:55
two lines useful for that day. Cool. Your personal
49:00
desert island writing tool, a pen, a laptop,
49:03
typewriter, something else? I would definitely
49:06
be, let's say pencil and paper, because pencil
49:08
you could sharpen somehow. A pen could run out
49:11
of ink. The emoji that best captures how you
49:17
feel about AI in school right now. something
49:22
that's a little bit wild, like the one with the
49:24
eyes going in two different directions. A little
49:27
bit of that, and maybe the one that is melting
49:30
a little bit. It's a lot. Those two. The first
49:34
one that you mentioned, Jeremy just sent me that
49:37
one in a text, I think. I think I did. Hopefully
49:40
he doesn't send it when we're done talking. And
49:45
one last one to close it out, if you could ban
49:47
one cliche from all student writing forever,
49:50
what would it be? I hate the word very. It allows
49:55
them to use really weak words that come right
49:56
after it. So I think just get rid of the word
49:59
very and your writing always gets better. Well,
50:04
then this was an amazing. entertaining, not very
50:08
amazing, interview and we're really glad that
50:14
you're able to join us. Thanks so much for having
50:16
me. I appreciate it. And before we do let you
50:19
go, one last thing. Would you like to share any
50:24
way for people could reach out to you if they
50:26
would like to engage, you know, in email or on
50:30
socials or LinkedIn. And, you know, obviously
50:33
we've been talking about your book and is there
50:36
any other upcoming things that you have that
50:39
you'd like to promote? Yeah, sure. By the time
50:42
this comes out, there's a study guide that will
50:44
be available for the book for PLCs or schools
50:46
that are reading it together. That's available
50:49
on Corbin's website. So that'll be really nice.
50:51
And that makes for good conversation among colleagues,
50:55
especially colleagues who are coming at this
50:56
from a very different perspective from each other.
50:59
My website is BrettVogelsinger .com and you can
51:02
find on there a lot of other writing I've done,
51:05
including a piece about what I say when students
51:08
are cheating with it, when they're using it in
51:09
a way that's inappropriate and how I start those
51:12
conversations and lead them productively. And
51:15
I'm also doing a webinar with... Corwin that
51:20
will be recorded and available, you know, after
51:22
the fact by the time someone's listening to this.
51:25
But if you look at Corwin's webinars on demand,
51:27
you can find that as well where I'll be talking
51:29
a little bit more. But yeah, those are all great
51:31
ways. And I'm at the Vogelman on places like
51:34
Blue Sky and Instagram. I'm also on LinkedIn,
51:39
so you can find me in all the places. Fantastic.
51:42
We'll definitely make sure to share those links
51:45
in the show notes and descriptions. But again,
51:48
thank you for your time, and we look forward
51:50
to hearing more from you soon. Thanks so much.
51:53
Appreciate being with you guys. Thanks for listening
51:56
to Integrate This. Want to take your learning
51:58
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52:01
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