Latest / In Tune Podcast / 4. Dr. Therese Perdedjian - Chiropractic is about tone
Transcript
- Nick Harvey: I've always wanted to know what sits underneath the work that people do, what shaped the way they think, what changed the way they practice, what they've built, what they believe, and the principles they keep coming back to when things get hard. So I sit down with chiropractors, healers, and people who've spent years figuring some of this out for themselves, and we get into all of it. I'm Dr. Nikave, and this is In Tune. Dr. Nick Harvey: My guest today is a chiropractor, a qualified dualer, and a childbirth educator. She teaches BGI seminars across Australia-Asia, and she's led chiropractic mission trips to Armenia. She's also the author of the book On Your Own Two Feet. And her newest creation is the Adjusting Intone Seminar. Dr. Therese Parisian, welcome to Intune. Therese: Nick, thank you so much for having me and think for all your listeners being here with us today too. Dr. Nick Harvey: You're so welcome. It's it's great to have you on board and I know we've shared some messages back and forth on Instagram. So Therese: Yes. Dr. Nick Harvey: it's great to finally connect. Therese: Got this smile on my face. Yay. Dr. Nick Harvey: I'd love to start at the beginning of your journey, Therese, into chiropractic. I know there's a long history there and and the some business degrees we were just talking about Therese: Mm. Dr. Nick Harvey: too. So I'd love to know where where did chiropractic start for you? Therese: It's it's a very good question. So I can give you there's like two different, if I say two different versions, there's two different depths. This is the one I usually share, which is I so I finished my business degree and and then I went and I went back home to a coastal town where my parents lived, which was Foster. And there is when I had my first chiropractic adjustment. I didn't know what chiropractors did. so I I just booked myself in, and then within that first session, it was Dr. Keith Bastion and he was an SOT practitioner. So that was my introduction to what this thing of chiropractic is. I went in and just he assessed me, and within his assessment, he said a couple of symptoms which I had, and I'm like How did he know? Like, how on earth did he know that like my skin is so sensitive just by looking at me? How did he know I had a sweet tooth just by looking at me? So my head was doing all these things. and then he proceeded to give me an adjustment, which was the lightest thing, Nick. It was so light. It was like the lightest touch to my neck. But as that light touch, like it just something awoken in me. And I had this rush. This is like I'm wanting to describe it the best way I can because it was an experience I had in my body. It's like this rush, if you want to call it energy or these sensations, just filled my whole body. And I had these three realizations that I was responsible for my thoughts, I was responsible for my actions, and I was responsible for my life. And it was like, it was a wake up moment. It was whoa. And I got up and I felt different. Like I felt like I was walking on water. I had this ridiculous smile on my face. And life was amazing, you know, for the next couple of months. And I realized I actually wasn't, you know, craving sugar. And so I'm like, wow, like, what is this thing? So I I I was like, okay, I'm I'm gonna study chiropractic. And that was it. That was just that one chiropractic adjustment. And I went to uni thinking I'm gonna study the wisdom and the healing art. Nick. And that was a little bit different to what I was introduced to at university, which I'm grateful for the university education that I had. And yeah, which which then allowed me to lead down other paths. So that was my first ever introduction to chiropractic. Dr. Nick Harvey: Awesome. And and Therese: Mm. Dr. Nick Harvey: you said uni and school gave you that clinical side, which you're grateful for, but you were still searching for something else. What what is it you were Therese: Yeah. Yeah. Dr. Nick Harvey: looking for? Therese: I was looking for the that thing that I experienced in my body. So there's this thing where yes, you can scientifically explain everything. You can do things mechanically. And then I'm like, well, what's that other bit? Like there's this other bit that no one's really talking about. is no one else feeling it? Is it just me? Am I special? Like, no, everyone else is feeling it, but are we not understanding how to articulate it? so what I was so I was very grateful for everything I learned at uni. And I'm so grateful that chiropractic is in the university education because it's pretty much the only allied health profession that has a university qualification. So I'm like, this is really like it's so cool if you like if you really think about it. I'm like, this is tops. And so When I so I was learning that at school, I was learning all the, you know, biomechanical things, the neurological things, chemical things, what else did we have? We have pathology, like anything, like the radiology. We learnt so much at university. and then on the side, I was like, I need someone else to explain to me in a different way the wisdom that was, you know, in the body. Like I'm not gonna bypass that we're human and there's something else that's going on. I don't know how to explain it, but I need someone to ex you know. to I just need to understand it a little bit so I have a little bit of peace in my mind. And so as I'm going around, I'm going to every single possible talk that people, you know, whenever a lecturer would come in or someone would talk, I would go to every single one. And it wasn't till Sue Brown came out from the United States and she is the founder of BGI or biogeometric integration. And I remember the first lecture went for like three hours plus and I don't really remember. I don't I remember not really understanding what she was saying. You know how you can sit there like you're listening, can't really say it back, but you have and knowing that that's actu there's that she's actually speaking truth. And she had these images up and that's when, yeah, that that's when I started to understand what I was actually experiencing inside my body. Dr. Nick Harvey: Mm, interesting. And for for a lot of people that aren't familiar with BGI, what what Therese: Yeah. Dr. Nick Harvey: were the principles she started to talk about, Sue and and what realizations did you have? Therese: Yeah, so the first principle Sue talked about was the first principle of chiropractic, which is the innate intelligence is in all matter and continually gives to its all its properties, thus maintaining it in existence. So at first, I had no idea that there were principles in chiropractic. Let's just start from there. And she opened up her talk by actually saying, Hey, like, did you know that there are 33 principles in chiropractic? I'm like, really? That's interesting. So she goes with the first one and she says, Well, you know, what does this actually mean? And you're sitting there and you're like, and she's like, Well, is it and it and is it still valid till today? And she started to paraphrase it and how she paraphrased it was so there's an innate intelligence living in all systems, you know, giving all systems and all things, thus maintaining its full. So what is innate? intelligence, like what is this consciousness? What is, you know, in chiropractic we call it innate. what is that? And it's like it's like, yeah, okay, well, what is it? What what is this thing and how do you describe it? and then does it really, you know, give force? Like is is force being maintained in all things or is it all things that we consider living? So like you know, the desk that I'm on, like this cabinet. Is it living? You can have two trains of thought, like, yes, there's wisdom in there, or no, there isn't. and then as as she was speaking, she she sh she shared some photos and she's like essentially let's paraphrase this till now. And she showed an image of the sun, and it was like well, well, let's just say the sunset. And she said the sun rises and it sets. Okay. And then a picture of a moon, and then it's like, well, the moon has all these different phases, right? Okay. And then so on a macroscopic level, we've got you know, the earth. And then if we bring it down on a microscopic level, then there's us, our cells, our DNA. And then if you have a look at the patterns with the on of these, they're actually very, very similar. So you start to notice patterns. she then started to talk about fractals and symmetry, which are branches of chaos theory. And then she said, Well, how do we apply it? And she started to introduce the tensegrity model. And so the first principle, and out of all that, became a whole big lecture of well, what what what is the first principle of chiropractic? And so that's what it that's the basis of how it actually all started. And when you and then it's called so biogeometric integration, bio, we're biological beings, geometric. Gymetric is what she described it, what she referred to in is in sacred geometry, not geometry of like right angles or rulers. And so what is sacred geometry? Sacred geometry is when you can zoom in and zoom out on the macro and microscopic level throughout the all realms of the inorganic realm, the biological realm, you know, the chemical realm, you've actually got the same patterns that are that are repeating. and then integration, integrating. Coming as one, seeing it as one, seeing it as a whole, or two things coming together, you know, to bridge that gap. So yeah, that was one of the it's it's a big one, like you can spend hours on it. So the in in sum, that is the the first principle, the first principle of chiropractic. Dr. Nick Harvey: Yeah, wow. I I really enjoyed Therese: Hm. Dr. Nick Harvey: that and I would like to deepen into a lot of that too as as we get further along Therese: Mm. Dr. Nick Harvey: in the journey as well. I'd love to talk about what were your early years in practice like, especially coming out as a chiropractor. I'm assuming you you saw Therese: Yeah. Dr. Nick Harvey: Sue at university and you came out into your early years of practice and you were trying to integrate everything all together. What was that like? Therese: So okay. Early years in practice, let's just go back. Early years in practice were hard when it came to the business side. Early years in practice in integrating what I had learnt, easy. so my journey went, so Sue would come out twice a year. I would go to s I would go to the seminars, and then she offered this thing called the mastery program, which meant that I flew to the States for a weekend, for a whole year just to learn the mastery course. So that That was when you are in it and you're practicing, like you're really in the practice of what, you know, what it is that you're feeling. It's a totally different ballgame. So it meant I had confidence in my hands. it also meant that in the United States, how they do things is totally different to how things are done in Australia. Clinics in the United States are totally different to how clinics in Australia are. well, let's just say for what I was exposed to. Can I just Yeah. So every clinic I went to was an open plan clinic with people having anywhere between half an hour sessions with like, you know, four or six other people. In Australia it was very single room. in Australia our language is really really different to how they actually talk in the United States. You know, we could hear people in the United States very going, wow. And then they come here going, like, what are you guys talking about? Your language is so hard. now that I'm a bit more mature, I can I I can see things are a little bit different. So please know I was quite younger in the in in the time too. So I was possibly quite impressionable as well. so coming back hands-on skills was fine. when it came to the communicating, it was it started to get a bit weird because in Australia it's very much, you say chiropractor, it's associated with back pain. that was not my study at all. My study was okay, there's a whole being, there's things, there's a potential that could actually be released in someone. And that that that was the game that I'm like, that's a game that we're playing, that's a game that I've but learned, that's a game that I chased. And so then I had to reduce it to, yeah, I can crack your spine and your pain's gonna go away. I'm like, okay, so am I doing pain management or am I doing something else? And it was like so that that was hard for me and it was it it was quite unsettling in my system. Because I I was still trying to figure out. And at the same time, it's well, here's a business model. If you wanna if you wanna make money and make some cash, this is a business model and that business model works. And then in my mind it's I'm experiencing something different. Do I share that? Or do I you know, do I kind of shut this thing off in my head or in my heart? Or do I just go stuff it? Like you gotta do what you gotta do. So me being the type where it's like I have to feel okay in here and in here, I kept chasing it and That's one of the reasons I actually wrote the book. And I wrote the book for those who are, say, in an associateship position, and they're not feeling like there's something that they feel is missing, and they want to open up because they've actually got their own way of expressing what they want to express. That's one of the main reasons I wrote my book, because it was my journey of, hey, this is what I'm struggling with. So initially I was an associate with one of the most phenomenal chiropractors in Sydney. I was so lucky. And then it did get, it was like, I'm actually, I'm unsettled within myself. So what do I do? and that was actually really hard for the first, you know, three to four years. It was hard till I went, stuff this, I'm just gonna do my own because and you know, it took me that long to go, Theresa, why don't you just do it in the first place? And I can't tell you why I didn't. I just, you know, looking back now, I'm like, well, it's led me down this journey. But yeah, it it took me that. I I think it was three years. It took me three years to then go. I need to do this. Like I need to just open up my own little hole in the wall and and practice how I want to practice. So initially, Nick, it was very, very hard. Dr. Nick Harvey: And I'm sure a lot of other chiropractors in Australia relate to that too. I can I can definitely relate. Therese: Yeah. Dr. Nick Harvey: And and coming out and you're trying to piece all the bits together that you've learned, but you know, in your heart there's more. There's more to it and Therese: Mm. Dr. Nick Harvey: and there's more you can be doing, but you're still gathering the language and the confidence and the certainty to be able to communicate that to people. And unfortunately or fortunately, I mean it's it's a building bridge, a lot of those. business networks, the way they help you build the practice, they do build a strong foundation, but you do quickly outgrow them an and what I've found is they will limit you in in how far you want to expand too. So they can be they can be good for a season and they can be good for people at certain times, but I'm sure a lot of the other chiropractors resonate with the way you felt too, which is a yeah. Therese: Can I can I just add something there? so what was interesting for me, you know, when you said we're trying to piece the puzzle, like when we're first out, the one thing that for me I knew I wasn't piecing together, which I had down pat, was actually placing my hands on people. I had so studied intensely in this one thing that I was like, am I just overconfident or am I actually this this is it? Like I I actually get it. That was the one thing where it would have shaken my confidence a bit is you go to different clinics, you know, someone does this technique, someone does this technique, someone does, and they're borrowing all these techniques. And it's just like, well, that does kind of play in your head a bit. but then I'm like, no, but I'm doing this. And because there was no language, I had a language and not a technique, it was like. Well what are you doing? You're not doing anything. I'm like, dude, that was just the best adjustment ever. It changed your life completely. So yeah, I just wanted to add that. Dr. Nick Harvey: Yeah, no thank you. I Therese: Yeah. Dr. Nick Harvey: would love to deepen into the the way you'd communicate with someone, especially someone early in their journey. I know a lot of other chiropractors aren't as They don't have the experiences we've had previously to feel the Therese: Yeah. Dr. Nick Harvey: depth of the way chiropractic can change their lives. And and they obviously want to help people. They've gone into the profession for wanting to help people and they're they're stuck in the nitty-gritty biomechanical learning things at university. but they want to experience what more chiropractic has to offer. Where would you start to lead them to and and what would you tell them? Therese: Are they graduated or they still in clinic? are they still in school, sorry. Dr. Nick Harvey: Either. Either. Maybe later in school or or early out. Therese: Where I am now, I'll address the school one first. And the reason why I asked this because it can be a totally different answer. we've and I preface this in that we have so much information at access to us now. Like we are in the world, anything is possible. And I find that people demand things faster. and so when it comes to students, I have decided that I I my seminars aren't on offer for students because not only does it confuse them, but also there's a lot of unlearning to do. Like there is so much unlearning that I'm like, no, this is this does this does not help in any way, shape, or form. I do invite them to assist so I can go, here's an exposure. So they're not, you know, in there, but they're there listening if if they have an interest. But yeah, so for students, I'm like, just actually do your university degree. And once you've done that, then come out and actually see what interests you. Because what I have found is when they do step in and they're they're wanting, they're chasing something, but they're actually not sure what they're chasing. And so that's where the confusion happens. And it's like, okay, do you actually just need to figure out how to do a proper initial consult? If that, just practice your initial consult. Like just do that. if it's you want to know how to palpation, well, that means you got to be prepared that you're not gonna feel some stuff for a while, but you just gotta keep at it and then you're gonna feel some stuff. And so there's an expectation that if they if they're not getting it straight away that they're not understanding it, I'm like. It took me 12 years to like do this. So, you know, 12 years of experience is not you're gonna you're gonna have it in one second. you actually it's quite called practice. You actually have to practice. And so that's what I would say to students. I would and students I've been to a student event and they ask me, Well, are you scientific based or are you philosophical based? And I'm like, now I'm like, that's the dumbest question. or how should I say, there's a better question to ask. I'm like, well, what is science and what is philosophy? I'm like, they're both a language. So are you communicating in a scientific way where you're measuring all these things? Or are you communicating in a philosophical way where you're giving a a broad picture, you know, and it includes other details of maybe, you know, social or human ways of doing things. so you're actually doing both. They're not they're not separate. But the idea that students see it as such separate things, I'm like, we need to do a whole year of unlearning before we can actually start. so that's the that's the student thing. We're first year grads, again, I see them chasing something which there's this idea that then I'll talk about the people who have been three to four years out. So the first year grads, they're like, yeah, you know, I want to see a I have to see a hundred people or two hundred people like everything is measured with numbers. And I'm like Where A, where is that coming from? You know, is that an insecurity or is that what we learnt in student clinic where we have to see X amount of people in order to graduate, right? but yeah, it doesn't mean you're satisfied. Like you could see 200 people. Just d does that satisfy you? I can see one person. I'm highly satisfied, you know? So the first year grads I've I I would be like, pick one thing, whether it's going to be you want to increase your hands-on or you want to learn communication. Pick one of them and commit to it for a year or two and get it that get good at that. Like no one just woke up out of bed and went, I'm great at everything. you you go in it. You go in it. Like I've done so many business courses, it's it it's crazy, right? I've done so many chiropractic, you know, technique training courses, you'd be like, Yeah, and we still go to them because that's what practice is. You're you're actually practicing, you know, and you're practicing to evolve. So That's what I would say for someone who's first year out. and also don't chase what like you're the one who has to do the work. I know I do know people go into clinics thinking or seeking really badly that they want ment mentorship or you know, they're wanting something. I'm like, no one's gonna give it to you till you actually give it to yourself. And so it and there's a lot of and then you can see the deflated promises that they thought that they were gonna get, but it's like, hold on, you just had that for yourself. No one was promising that to you. however, I do know that sometimes there is some certain language which which can mislead you that way. But I'm like, reality, like check really how it is. and then the ones who have been three to four years out, I'll actually start to have conversations with you. Like you really want to understand what these two different things are. Here's a really good place to start. Pick one thing, whatever it is for you, whatever you want to, you know, and know that that that's going to be your personal development or your self-development. So, and they're the three things I say. This the people who are seven years out, I'm like, come on board, I'm teaching you. This is what we're doing. people who are up to even 15, people who are possibly like 20 plus years out, that's when we would need to have different conversations because there's different depths of where we're playing with. So it it it's a big spectrum. And I do think that there's different for everyone else. but yeah, I think it takes time to really think of know who you are and what practice is to you. it's easy to figure out what other people are doing and what you know you want to take on, like because that's the modeling, that's the role model that you see. but if chiropractic is really about, you know, releasing your potential, then it's like, well, what's your practice? So that's my answer. Dr. Nick Harvey: can really resonate and I'm sure a lot of people come up with a lot of that as well. Therese: Yeah. Mm. Dr. Nick Harvey: It probably took me three good years to detox from from university and from the fear. From the Therese: Shh. Dr. Nick Harvey: fear around what we do. And I'm someone that can speak to coming out and thinking the big goal was the numbers and the money. And it it likely came from a big place of lack being in university of of both of them. And it's it's just a slingshot to another end of the spectrum. And I can tell our listeners it's a very empty vessel to be chasing. And and my now focus is is like you're saying on impact, on less about what what can I achieve and more about what results can I create for people. And that's always fulfilling and and and Therese: Hm. Dr. Nick Harvey: it goes so deep and it it it never ends and it's it it's just the best way to practice from at the moment. Therese: It's it's that thing where you're like, you saw a hundred people, you gave a hundred and pit packs. I'm like a hundred impacts. I'm like, no, you can see one person, you do that well, that's six hundred impacts just by the one person that you contacted. So I'm like, how do you want to see this? And so in and you know, what is content? I'm very content. Like I'm if I have one person, if I have five people, if I have twenty-eight people, fifty-three people, a hundred people, it's just like If I deliver something good, I am just if I'm tired, if my head's not in the right space, you know, if I'm then I'm like, it it it doesn't, you know, it it yeah, it just doesn't work it doesn't work. Dr. Nick Harvey: I would love to deepen into for our listeners some of the Therese: Yeah. Dr. Nick Harvey: BGI principles you started to learn and a bit of what you teach today as well of you know Sue Brown's talk around the potential energy theory of the subluxation and Therese: Yeah. Dr. Nick Harvey: going into the electromagnetic field and he even talking about what the adjustment is on that that quantum level. Therese: Yeah, okay. Dr. Nick Harvey: So yeah, start from where I'm Therese: Okay. So some so Sue's potential energy theory in subluxation is pretty phenomenal. It got published I don't know the year. I don't know if it was in eighty eight. Do you have it there when it got published? No. Okay. Dr. Nick Harvey: I'm not sure. Therese: It got published somewhere in the States. Anyway, so she shall actually talks about do you have it there actually? Do you have it do you have the actual potential energy theory with you there to read or? Dr. Nick Harvey: Not with me. Therese: No, okay. okay. I'll just I don't have the whole the whole I was just gonna say if I could read the whole thing, it's pretty cool. But if not, I'll just paraphrase it. she talks about so she acknowledges that there's the spine. Okay, we're chiropractors, we're all talking about the spine. Yes, okay, he's the spine. She then goes on to say the neurochemistry. So, with the neurochemistry, she's acknowledging that hey, guess what? We've got organs and there's all these chemical reactions that are happening in our system. She goes on to talk about the neurology. So we know that our nervous system is doing all these things. And the last thing that she adds is there's the electromagnetic field, right? To actually say there's something that it's not just this physical thing that you're that we're seeing, but putting it into the language. If you want to say for some people, they say the language of the quantum or quantum mechanics, that's what she actually added in there. I don't, I did a lot of research of, sorry, just on a sidetrack, I did a lot of research in, if you want to say quantum theory or quantum mechanics. And the more I go down the rabbit hole, the more I go, I don't understand this. And frankly, I don't think anyone else actually understands this who is actually doing it. However, what I do understand is putting possibilities out there. Okay. And that for me, so Sue's potential energy theory of a subluxation is the idea of there is a potential in someone. There's unlimited capabilities. There's unlimited possibilities. Why are like let's tap into that? And we are tapping into that. And let's actually start to say that that's what we're actually tapping into. in in in sorry. What's the word? Sorry, the words just apart from just going, we're boxing someone to go, yeah, you know, C three or T four was out and so now I've got it better. So that that's where that was actually coming from. That's one of the principles. Well, if I say the principle, that's a potential energy theory of subluxation in a very sweet short way, without going into more detail. Nick Harvey: Hey guys, I just quickly wanted to let you know, if you're a chiropractor and you want to get better with your hands, your certainty, and the way you actually deliver an adjustment, that's what inflow artistry is about. I'm running seminars in Melbourne, the Gold Coast, Perth, Adelaide, Sydney, and New Zealand, and there are still super early bird and early bird tickets available for selected events. They're hands-on weekends where we go deep into the art of the adjustment, technique, connection, adaptability, body mechanics. And learning how to make the adjustment your own. You can find all the dates and tickets at inflowartistry.com.au. All right, back into it. Dr. Nick Harvey: And I'd love to deepen what Therese: Yeah. Dr. Nick Harvey: you just said too, because I did a podcast maybe two weeks ago with a a good friend Dylan Moorn, who was speaking about the adjustment in a quantum way of not putting it in a box Therese: Yeah. Dr. Nick Harvey: and and not doing something to create an expected outcome, but instead holding a high intention for someone. And letting their body take care of the outcome too. And that's Therese: Yeah. Dr. Nick Harvey: what he was speaking, is where an adjustment truly comes from, is you focus on your intention, you focus on the energy you provide to that person. You you focus on the input and giving to the best of your ability that input or that force into a living system, but you're Therese: Yeah. Dr. Nick Harvey: not responsible for the outcome or the adjustment that the body makes. when we go into adjusting, I'm sure you've got. Therese: I disagree, but keep going, yes. Dr. Nick Harvey: T take it take it from there. Tell me tell me what you disagree with. Therese: okay. Al intent, is Al intent someone else's healing? Is it well if we're a principled chiropractor, principled chiropractor means I'm taking responsibility for what I'm doing. And force, is it my force or is it the force of of what's actually coming up? And so it's easy to like I and I do think a lot of chiropractors, and it's and it's good, it's good to hear the intent. What's your intent? You know, my intent is this. yeah, no, there's actually no intent. Your intent is to observe, is to kinesthetically listen, and is to audibly listen and visually see. Then the body will tell you exactly what it wants. You are there to witness that, okay? And so when you talk about Yeah, I have all responsibility because if I observe with presence, then anything is actually possible. If I have my intention, that's actually my intention. And so that's one of the biggest things I've learned is the more I speak, or the more I want to, you know, either not take responsibility, do whatever, that I'm just actually robbing someone of their own thing. And so the more of a witness can I I can be. If I can use the word witness, then I'd be like, now we're actually talking. But if you're wanting to scan me to actually put me in a box, then yeah, that's that's you doing something to me. Still works, still works. different relationship. I do want to say I one of the things I've I do teach in my in my new series is this is this really this thing of, you know, are you actually observing? Because the first thing what we learn at uni is to critic. Critically analyze. So as soon as someone's coming, you know, we're going, Do you have this? No, no, no, no, no. We're actually running. Okay. Then we run our judgments. And then we're like, okay, then by that time we've actually exhausted our head. So we're trying to actually trying to feel something. I'm like, no, what is the first, like, like less than a blink of a second? What is that for? That's when you're actually listening audially, observing visually, right? That's when they're actually telling you what's going on. most people actually just they skip that. And that's where practitioners start to become frustrated as well, because they either feel like they're not getting the outcome. it is easy to say, just to circle back, it is easy to say it's not my responsibility. and yet, no, it actually is your responsibility because they're actually paying you. but I do think that this thing of observing, and you are actually responsible. You're, you're, you're responsible to be there. It's kind of like midwifery. The most amazing midwives are just sitting in the corner. Like there's this story of this midwife who just sits in the corner, says nothing and and knits. Okay. That's the best midwife that you want because she's allowing you to process what you actually do. She's not doing anything. And I have been to many births and there was one birth that I went to and I went to the appointments as well. And the midwife goes, you know, to the expected mother, How are you? She's like, Yeah, good. Okay She's like, okay, we'll see you, you know, whenever your next booking is. And the person the pregnant woman was so upset going, and I'm like, like, you know, because she didn't do this, she didn't do this exam, she didn't listen to this. And I'm like, she is the best midwife because she's not interfering. And then when I was at the birth, you didn't even know this midwife would come into the room, do a scan, clean up, walk out. She would like she was so invincible. And then when the baby was was being born, she was just there. You didn't even know. And I'm like, my God, that is what an amazing midwife is. Because I've been to other midwives who are like, you know, you're not really dilated. We need to cut you. Well, no, we need to do this. Well, I've got other, you know, I've got other mothers, so you gotta do this quick now. And that's just like, wow. So I've I've seen the difference, but I can do relate it back into practice. It's, you know. We're not, yeah, like we're there to actually be witness. But can I say that's not what we're taught? Like they're not the skills that we're taught in any way, shape, or form. So then we start to have this language of, you know, what's your intent? You know, what's the force? All this responsibility. I'm like, no, let's actually just practice it. Let's not talk about it. Can you actually really deliver that in practice? Dr. Nick Harvey: I couldn't agree more and with Therese: Mm. Dr. Nick Harvey: me and my fiancee just having a free birth recently. yeah, it was a really beautiful process. Thank you. Therese: No way! Nick, congratulations! Wow. Dr. Nick Harvey: I was a midwife in the corner. but it was a beautiful process and and and Therese: Beautiful. Yeah. Dr. Nick Harvey: to take it from what you just said as well, your intention is observation, observing the person in front of you. And I think that's what I was really trying to make clear is is we observe, we listen, we, you know, connect from get out of our heads and into our heart space and feel what what's happening for that person and let Therese: Yeah. Dr. Nick Harvey: their body tell us exactly what they need. Yep. Therese: C can I take it one more step further about feeling? Dr. Nick Harvey: Yep. Therese: So you have practitioners who feel, and then their feeling overrides an emotion. So they get caught up with their own emotion as opposed to really understanding what to do with what they just felt. So then the next conversation, Nick, is are you actually grounded as a practitioner? so it's easy to say I'm going in my heart, right? And I'm like, this has got nothing to like. It's not got nothing to do with the heart. Like some a lot of people go, I'm dropping in. I'm like, what are you dropping into? Okay. So I I hear all this stuff and it's like I'm saying I'm doing these. I'm like, I don't want you to say that you're doing it. I actually want to see you do it and you actually know what it is that you're doing. And so yeah, I just wanted to add that. Cause I'm like, I don't it's not that I don't care what's in the heart. I I think that we need a new language from I get from my head to my heart. I'm like, no, we're actually all one. Right. Dr. Nick Harvey: Mm. Therese: So the best I've got at the moment, which I don't know, you may have something so much better than this, is how present are you being? You know, how how are you acknowledging that right now this moment is just so perfect? Right. And then taking it from there and not backing out, not going, should I, should I, not having a wave of thought of, you know, you know, what's outside or did I do the right thing? Or, you know, what's next? It's actually being in the process of it. Dr. Nick Harvey: I couldn't agree more. And I think it's always going to be the limitations of language that that just don't allow us Therese: Mm, it is. Dr. Nick Harvey: to fully express what we're what we're trying to express. And I think my best way, and you are correct in that it is Therese: Yeah. Dr. Nick Harvey: all one, but my best expression of it is Joe Dispenser's work in talking about brain heart coherence. Therese: Mm. Dr. Nick Harvey: And and too many of us occupy the mental space, like you were talking about with an overload of information, we're all mentally preoccupied. And and I find there is a disconnect to the heart space and and what you went into there about practitioners not being grounded and not, you know, they're bringing their own things into Therese: Yeah. Dr. Nick Harvey: practice. Could you touch on grounding and and how that looks for you and your practice and that process? Therese: Yeah. well, it's interesting when you're saying disconnected from the heart space. again, this may just be wordplay, Nick, right? I think a lot of people have so much big heart, it's not funny. Like people have we're human. We have such big hearts. We're trained in a particular language, right? So we're trained in the university or we're trained to however practice should be like. And so Emotionally, you either know how to process your emotions or you don't, right? Most people, I know I have to work a lot on processing my emotions, and this is where I'm going to get to how about grounding or what grounding is. it takes something. It really takes something to constantly engage with what the emotions are. And so once you can do that for yourself, you really can engage with what the emotions are. And, you know, it could be there you may you may feel like there's parts of your life that are missing, or you may compare yourself to bits that are you know, like lack or you know, or why am I not seeing this many people in practice? Or, you know, how come I don't know, I'm not in a relationship and I want to be, or how come this isn't happening for me? You can be in that space. When there's an acknowledgement of what that either makes you feel or how you deal with that internal turmoil and there's peace, then there's a grounding, right? And so for me, if there's a practice, I'm I'm a writer and I write. and how I do that is I wake up every morning and I have pen and I just scribble what comes out. sometimes it's really you know just rubbish Nick it's rubbish that comes out other times I'm like if I reread it I'm like what is my head thinking like it's embarrassing I did PS burn a whole bunch of journals recently I'm like what I don't want that like what was this and then there comes a time when now my writing is I write what I observe and so writing what you observe is one of the hardest things that you can do okay People get fed up with you can't even like if you can do that for a good say maybe five minutes, that's allowing you to be present, that's allowing you to be still. But that's also, guess what that's doing? That's really allowing you to access, if you want to call it the heart, right? That's allowing you to really unravel a flow that it's like we're we're not doing that flow, and we're doing that, we're doing this and this, we're doing that separate. Because it's actually easier because we don't know how to do that flow. And so writing. Writing is a is is a a big one. And I also have this thing called the joy period. Sorry, I'll share that. In in my book I've written, there's a four-hour joy period for me. So after four hours in clinic and seeing people, it I actually start to get tired, right? So I either take a break or that's it, joy period's done, I'm finished for the day. because other than that, then I start doing the things and I start, you know, doing what I have to do, as opposed to just being in that space and going, Hey, what you know, what what is it that you're wanting to create and how can I be there for you to help create that? Dr. Nick Harvey: Awesome. Thank you for sharing that. I Therese: Mm. Dr. Nick Harvey: would love to deepen into because you've had a big evolution into the way you see chiropractic and and and the language you use. I'd love to deepen into what in your words is an adjustment. Therese: Yeah, it's a really good question. Yep. So Nick, that's a very good question. and I was so I've been and where I'm gonna come from is I've been been just so privileged to teach for the past twelve years, not only in Australia, but you know, New Zealand. I've taught in Japan, Germany, Europe, I've had interactions in the United States, which allowed me to see different people, different ways of doing things. and I've also worked in different clinics in different in different countries as well. And so I think that there's two different things. I think that there's an adjustment, and I also think that there's something that's not an adjustment, which I don't have the words for at the moment. I I I don't know. I've been sitting on this for months to go, how do you how do I describe it? an adjustment for where I'm at today. Really, and I'm not breaking down what the word adjustment means. I do know that if you break down the words, I it means back to center. if I see that people are saying that they're adjusting, what I've observed is people is doing something. So I don't actually know what an adjustment is, if I'm being totally honest with you to go, well, what what are we doing? yeah, I can tell you a lot of what we're doing, but if you're really asking me what are we doing, what is an adjustment? I don't have the words. And it makes me want to cry. Like it tears me up inside because I know that it's something so beautiful and something just I don't even want to put words for it because then it feels like the magic of it would go away. So I don't know in essence what well I do know in essence what an adjustment is. I don't know how to articulate it. do I see most people on what I've seen when I've been teaching? I don't know. I I wouldn't say that there's that. I would say that we're all wanting to do something. and that something is correcting, say, a posture or correcting, you know, a leg length, or, you know, making the pain go away. is an adjustment? Yeah, it it could be an adjustment. Like who's to s who's to say that it's not? If we are talking about the depth of it, then I don't know what I would I don't have the words. And when I do, I'll I'll message you. Well what would you Dr. Nick Harvey: I Therese: say an adjustment is yeah. Yeah. Dr. Nick Harvey: What would I? That's a good question. I think I can phrase what what an adjustment includes. I can't as you're saying too it is it is a struggle to talk about the depth of the effect it has on a person. But I believe some of the terms is an adjustment is with someone, not to someone. Therese: Mm-hmm. Dr. Nick Harvey: We're typically providing a force with corrective intent, and that force comes through many different ways, you know, a HVLA or a low force or a tonal approach or even some people are working off the body, which you could get into and argue whether that is or isn't. but with corrective intent, you know, with with an intent and you know our intent is observation, our intent is listening, and the intent is to come from that pr place of presence, you know, where we're we're seeing that person in wholeness and and curiosity as well, where we're we're not judging, we're not, we're not bringing Therese: Mm. Dr. Nick Harvey: our stuff onto them. We're we're allowing the work to happen through us. And it it is a difficult thing to to articulate. And I think that's why chiropractic internally has so much going on because there's so much discrepancy in the way we communicate. And Therese: Shell. Dr. Nick Harvey: some people just go, let's just simplify it into the the crack and the pop is is this. Maybe an easy way for you would be to tell our listeners what is not an adjustment. Therese: Okay. Actually that's really good, Nick. can we just side note the off the body the off the body one and there was one more thing that you said that I went I would I want to address those two. So what is not an adjustment? This becomes tricky because this may challenge everything that we have learnt. it may trigger some things for people. an adjustment, and yeah, it may be really hard to take. and I'm only coming from this is what my training was and what I've learned. and I know that it could be totally polar opposite to what you know others have learned. So I don't necessarily think that an adjustment is Ooh, see, I could go two ways here because I still don't know what the other word is that I'm wanting to articulate. I could say an adjustment is doing something to someone. Okay, I can definitely say that, and that works very, very well. Okay. I can say that what that adjustment is not. Sorry, the question was what is an adjustment is not. An adjustment is Yeah, adjustment is not doing something to someone. That's the first thing I would say. an adjustment is also not time restricted. I would definitely tell you that. As soon as that there's a time restriction, I I don't think that allows for a process to happen. Adjusts and if you're a practitioner who doesn't who doesn't if I say has not played with time or does not know time, yeah, that's that's not adjusting. what adjustment is also not. I don't think it's it's it's not what we actually think it is in what we're doing in day to day clinic. That's what I think an adjustment is not. Is that a double negative I said by the way? Sorry if it was. yeah. Dr. Nick Harvey: It's tough. It's tough and there there's a lot in Therese: It's very tough. Dr. Nick Harvey: there and I think I think the adjustment comes from that that special place of I like to call it the flow state. And Therese: Yeah, okay. Dr. Nick Harvey: and when you're fully present and you're fully with the person and I truly believe in order to reach that state it it requires you to get out of the thinking space and in into being there with them. And Therese: Yeah. Dr. Nick Harvey: and as soon as we come back to that thinking space and trying to articulate what it is we're doing, it's it's always deductive. It's always breaking down parts of the whole. And that's why I think it becomes so difficult to articulate. So I'm sure we could talk about this all day. I'd love to talk Yes, go for it. Therese: We can. can I put yeah, go. Can I just put a caveat on the off the body one? Dr. Nick Harvey: Mm-hmm. Therese: so chiropractic is anything, and I heard the first time I heard this was when John Martinez said it, what it was like, you know, chiropractic is such a loose term, is anything off the ground of the earth to anything off the spiritual. So we're in that spectrum in between. And I'm like, wow, that's actually really good, because it can be anything. And then there's the off-the-body things. And it's interesting. I'm I'm in if you want to say a modality where a lot of people are interested in, you know, the off the body. Yeah. And I, if I say I shut it down, I'm like, what are you doing? Like, do you actually know what you're doing? And the first thing I say that is because we're actual physic we're in physical form. We're a physical manifestation of whatever it is. And if you really want any form of evolution to occur, then we need Touch or we need sight. That actu actually allows our nervous system to evolve. Okay. It sets off a chain reaction. So a physical touch is something that's necessary. Touch is actually quite healing. Okay. It's so the off-the-body stuff, I just go, okay, that's cool. There's a lot of emotional things that happen, and a lot of people are in an emotional state, in an and so. And that's different from what you say, yes, they may think that they're in a flow state. Majority of the ones I've observed, I'm like, you're just, you're just hyping up your emotions. We actually need to just pump down a bit, right? And so the more that there's less of that going on, the more I'm like, now we're actually in the right space to see what we're actually going to practice. yeah, so and if someone who's doing off the body can exactly tell you exactly verbalize where they are, even though a moment ago I couldn't actually verbalize what an actual adjustment was, that's where I'd be like, okay, now we're actually we're we're getting somewhere. That's what I wanted to say on that. Dr. Nick Harvey: Hmm. It's interesting. It's interesting. I would love to talk about a bit of a miracle story, I believe you had. I believe you had a baby coming Therese: Which one? Dr. Nick Harvey: I believe you had a baby come into your practice and Therese: Yes. Dr. Nick Harvey: you weren't allowed to adjust it. And you ended up adjusting the parents. Yeah. Therese: Wet yeah. that was an interesting one. Yeah. And so here we go if you want to say what an adjustment is or what the what actual potential is, right? So a baby came in and I'm and I'm placing my hands on the baby and they just wanted a check. So these two people are not chiropractically in l inclined in any way, shape, or form. and the mother of one of the parents is in the medical field is a surgeon of some sort, I don't know what. So there's a lot of medical training there. So I'm like, sure. So As I'm placing my hands on the baby, I'm like placing my hands. And it was just like, no, don't go near the neck. Don't do this. Don't go near the head. And I'm like, yeah, okay, whatever. So placing my hands, placing my hands. And I'm like, okay, so I do something really small. And I'm like, I don't know. Like, I don't, I wouldn't say I did much, but it was enough for me to say, it's not the baby. It's gotta be the parents. We've got to we've got to adjust the parents. So I didn't say anything then and there, but I was just like, Okay, I d I don't know what's happening here, can't really do much. Anyway, they went and had scans. Turns out that the baby had a tumor on her just on the base of her cerebellum, right? So the way they caught it was just like it was amazing. And as they're sharing this with me, like they came back and I went, OMG, everything makes sense. Everything for me just to be there and just to listen kinesthetically. Listen to with my and my eyes also and also hear what's happening. I was right to not, you know, do any more. Okay. And so they were quite distraught, which meant that the baby had to go into surgery quite soon. Which meant I'm like, Well, you come in and let me prepare you for your baby's adjustment. And that was pretty phenomenal, because it was the first time that I adjusted one of them. and it was like Wow, like I can see the gift in you brought your baby in. I didn't I didn't have to do anything there. What was what this was really preparing you for was actually for you to come in to get adjusted so you can actually be a little bit more grounded or have a little bit of peace of your baby going into surgery. Dr. Nick Harvey: Wow, that's incredible. Therese: Yeah, so no routine checks here. And who's Dr. Nick Harvey: No. Therese: to know, right? Who's to know what's going to happen? But I had to listen to myself and I had to listen to what I was kinesthetically listening to and also what I was observing with my eyes and also what I was listening. Like you you get a gauge of all these nuances. You really have to listen to them. And then I'm like, man, because sometimes you can question yourself, right? And I'm so glad that I was just what, no, this is this is it. Like that's a Most I can do. I don't know what to say. come back. Now the story develops. Okay, now it makes sense. Dr. Nick Harvey: What is it you think you were listening to within you that that told you Therese: Well, Dr. Nick Harvey: to do that? Therese: I'm t so I'm telling you, I'm kinesthetically listening. So that's a nice way for me to say, and so someone actually told me, you should actually start to say kinesthetically listen, because I say I say a lot, what are you listening to? What are you listening to? They're like, Are you hearing words? I'm like, no, it's like it's everywhere. And so the first thing is, sorry, your question was, what am I listening to? Dr. Nick Harvey: Correct. Therese: Yeah. So when you place your hands on someone, there are so many different nuances. You need to understand. Am I reading muscle? Am I reading soft connective tissue? Am I reading lymph? Am I reading organs? Am I reading neurology? Am I reading bone? Like what am I reading? Okay. And that's reading, listening, inter same thing for me. So as I place my hands on, I'm like, where's the depth that I'm at? Most people I know when they place their hands on, all they're trying to figure out is is the where's the bone? is this the PSIS? I'm like, yeah, I think it is. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's go the other side. Yeah, it is. one feels stuck than the other side, right? That's not what I'm doing. I'm placing my hands on where is the depth? Okay. And I'm not saying where's the depth of my intention? No. I'm really understanding that, you know, there's a potent there's a potential in here, right? And I'm really aware of my awareness. And so placing my hands on first thing I was like, what how how deep am I? That's pretty much the first question. When I have an understanding of that, then I have to start to decode. Is this a story that they're telling me? Okay. And it's really easy to to know the stories. And I and I ask verbal questions to clarify the stories. And be like, okay. Right. Okay. We're on track there. and sometimes you get a very big yes. And when you get a yes, the body does it on its own. So all you're doing is either asking a question or just being so present that it does what it does or you get a very big no. So you stand back and you're like, okay, well that's it. There's like I'm not scared to go, I I can't do anything here. Just move on to the next thing. So then I'd be like, okay, let me try again. And if it's not, then I'm like, what else? What what else, you know, do I need to do? So that's how I listen. I I I listen, but then I I listen to myself also, Nick. I don't override what I have just the information that has just I have gathered, I don't override that. I go, okay. And I'm not forcing anything either. So I don't have like it's not an outcome that, you know, it needs to look like this. It's I don't know what the outcome is, but I'm I'm he I'm here. Dr. Nick Harvey: And is that what you teach at your seminars, adjusting in tone? Therese: In adjusting in tone, adjusting in tone is a yeah, it's it's it's practicing what observing looks like. So we learn observing and it depends which which module. So we just had our lymph module, so I'll just touch on that. And then I've got the biomechanical one have but coming up. So the first thing that we teach is what it means, like the observer changes the room. We are the observer, we change the room. So how we or how we come up, right, is what we're actually playing with, not what the person is presenting, it's how we're actually showing up. So we talk about so I talk about observing. So we practice that. Then with the lymph one, we actually go through the whole anatomy and the physiology of the lymph. The reason is it's well, let's see how deep you are. So a lot of people play with lymph but not necessarily understand that they're there. Okay. And say, yeah, we feel something but we don't know what to do with it. So I'm like, well Let let's there's so many different systems in the body that you know we have we we know of. So let's start to pick one and let's start to interact with it. And so then we go through after we've gone through the whole anatomy and the physiology of the lymph, we actually start to palpate to go, this is what you're actually palpating. That's lymph. And some people are like, I felt that. Is that what that is? I'm like, Yeah, that's what lymph is. Some people are like, I work with this all the time. Is this not muscle? I'm like, it's not muscle, but lymph is embedded in the muscle. So maybe you've you're understanding the different subtleties of the nuances, right? So then from there, there's the lymph protocol, which I teach them. And so that allows them now to go, I didn't know that that that thing that I felt. I just either thought it was a little bit of swelling or I just thought it was a bit of movement that fast. But that's actually lymph. Yeah, that's lymph. So that's the first thing in, you know. This is what we do. Let's understand the different nuances to give you a bit more clarity. We've got the biomechanical design coming up. And that is I'm still writing up the module for it. And that is just so much fun because a lot of we're in the practice of we've got chiropractors, right? So, you know, I've heard a lot, we're one one with the bone. I'm like, you know what? In 12 years of teaching, I've only can tell you I've seen two people who are actually who resonate with the bone. Everyone else, you're just, you're just there. And so it's really going through, well, what's the depth of you if you're really being with the bone? What is bone, right? Bone is actually soft connective tissue. Okay. We have it this thing that it's this hard thing. It's like, no. Let and then let's really look at how our body is biomechanically designed. Like, why is our jaw the thing that moves? Why is it our arms that moves? And why is it our legs that move? You know, what is our torso and why is our sacrum so important? And so it's looking at all the relationships of that and then again, observing the body. And once we understand that nuance, it's what's what is the body telling us? So Dr. Nick Harvey: There is a lot to unpack there. And how many seminars in total do you do? Therese: Well, at the moment in the adjusting and tone series, I've there's eight seminars which I've written the bait like the basic foundations of. They they ha you know, still need to flesh it out. But this year, so we've got lymph, we've got biomechanical design, we've got shoulders and pelvis, we've got time. time is possibly one of my favorite ones, and then we've got generational, the tone of generations. there's a lot of times that, you know. People are having a different language now, there's a different consciousness. you know, people can go, that was from, you know, my past, or, you know, they want to blame other family members or something. but then when that really presents in the body, it's a totally different story of this is actually not you. This is a generational thing, like generational information that you're carrying. You can choose to carry it, that's fine, but you don't have to. And that's that's a different tone altogether. So there's like there's tones of stories that actually come up too. So yeah, they're they're like the first five modules anyway. Dr. Nick Harvey: And just before we we finish up for this podcast today, Therese: Yeah. Dr. Nick Harvey: for all of our listeners, what have you got upcoming and what other services I know with the book and other things, where where can people find out more about you, Therese? Therese: Yeah. the the best the best is to either go to my Instagram, which is Therese Perdigian or Facebook. There's a lot of information on there. go to the website which is artofchiropractic.com dot AU and that's got the latest module which is happening on September the twenty sixth. So if this gets out before then, that's our latest module. I do have my book, which is on your own two feet. I've got it here, so if Anyone wants to see it? How to use natural law to avoid burnout and ensure business success. that is available on audio. I'm actually reading it. that's available everywhere on major book distributors. You can just go online. You can do Amazon, Booktopia, wherever, Barnes Nobles if you're overseas, Spotify, Apple Music, it's everywhere and you can you can access that. Dr. Nick Harvey: Well, thank you. Thank you for your time today and thank you for being on Therese: Thank you. Dr. Nick Harvey: the Intune podcast. It's been an absolute pleasure. And Therese: It's been an absolute pleasure being here. Dr. Nick Harvey: thank you for listening along this far. and we'll we'll see you guys next time. Therese: Excellent, thank you.