Latest / Gabriel Ellis, PhD | The Curious Mind Podcast / Three Approaches to Life in Comparison: 1. Virtue

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Three Approaches to Life in Comparison: 1. Virtue · Gabriel Ellis, PhD | The Curious Mind Podcast

0:00
Hello everyone, my name is Gabriel Ellis.
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I'm a psychologist, A psychotherapist, and a Buddhist
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scholar, and in my podcast I reflect on deep psychological
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questions sometimes about spirituality.
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I'm quite critical about developments in pop psychology,
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so I comment on that as well. And generally I like to delve in
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depth into psychological topics. And today I would like to
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reflect on a tool that I use in my therapeutic practice, which
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proved to be quite handy when it comes to support people and
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given them an orientation in their life.
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So often enough, in my clinical practice, clients are at a
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crossroads at their life. They have to make important
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decisions for themselves, for the family about work, and at
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the same time they look inside and they don't find a clear
0:59
resonance to what they want. And then, of course, those
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decisions become quite cumbersome and difficult,
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because when we would like to make decisions of these
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magnitude, then of course we would like to refer to a
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resonance, to a gut feeling, to an intuition that supports us in
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the long run. And for that purpose, I develop
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a relatively simple structure of three basic approaches to life,
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of which the first I would like to discuss today.
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The first orientation is the virtue, orientation to life.
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In the upcoming episodes, I will talk about the needs, oriented,
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perspective or approach to life and the third finally is the
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self avoidant type. I will mention the three of them
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a little bit today while focusing on the virtue oriented
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type but in much more detail. I will come to talk about them
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in the upcoming weeks. When we speak about approaches,
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types of people and so on, we always have to keep in mind that
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we never find purity in life. Life is always a mixture of
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things. So when I focus on the virtue
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oriented type today, please understand it in a way that this
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is an orientation of somewhat of a person who has in their mix
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more aspects of this virtue orientation.
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It doesn't mean that they're 100% virtue oriented.
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We find this extremely rarely or never at all.
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And once again, the purpose and the clinical practice and maybe
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also for you as the listener, is to develop some sort of a
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compass, a reference structure that helps you to understand
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where you are in your life. And if you are satisfied with
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the priorities that you have, this that you have set up and if
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you want to change something in which direction, OK.
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So talking about virtue, the concept of virtue is of course
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old. We find it in many systems of
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philosophy. For example, in the old Greeks
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and in ancient times, we can say that those virtues have been for
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a long time, orientation points. I will give you some example of
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virtues. Some of them are historical,
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some are more recent, but just so that we get a little bit more
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of an understanding of what I'm actually talking about.
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So some examples are truthfulness, honesty, courage,
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justice, moderation, self knowledge, tolerance, openness,
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friendship, knowledge, education, freedom, fairness,
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self determination, ethics, a sense of responsibility,
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benevolence, solidarity, peace, compassion, Environmental
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Protection, which is important today, Cooperation.
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So this does not encompass all virtues possible, of course, but
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I think it it fairly covers the most important ones.
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Now, even if we had virtue orientation in ancient
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philosophy and medieval times, according to Christian virtues,
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for example, today I would like to understand it in a different
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way. For me, in order for such a
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quality to be a real virtue, it needs to have a specific
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relationship to the unconscious. For the unconscious, A virtue is
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something that it submits to because the virtue offers a
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higher power of integration. Now this is quite abstract, but
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let me elaborate a little bit more.
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When I take a virtue, let's say honesty, it can be two things.
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More or less. It can be something that I have
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developed for myself, based on my life experiences, based on
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what I like to see more in the world.
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I have digested it, I have practiced it.
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I have lived with my shortcomings, incorporated them
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as well. You can come to a holistic
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understanding of the concept of honesty, for example, for my
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purposes for my life now, this is one way to approach it.
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More common is that honesty is introjected and I will come to
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explain this term just in a bit, Interjected from parents and
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from society. Yes, they call it a virtue or a
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value, but what is happening in our minds with our conscious is
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that it gets established as the part of what we call super ego
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with psychoanalytic terms, which means it is an instance, a voice
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within us that operates on the basis of should, shouldn't and
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must. And this, for me, for the
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purpose of therapy, is not a virtue.
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If, for example, through the education of parents, Let's say
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honesty was for my parents an important thing that they wanted
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to bestow on me. Now, in which circumstances does
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this get into my system? It is something that my parents
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want me to learn. So I'm talking now about a kid,
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a small kid. And so they react in a certain
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way if I'm honest or not honest. When I'm honest, they reward me.
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They give me positive feedback. They show me in so many ways
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that this is what they would hope to see.
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And thus I clearly understand that they like me more, that
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they love me more if I display this behavior, and if I'm
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dishonest, the opposite. So how much is the content of
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this value, of this virtue actually in the centre of the
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educating context? What is important, what is much,
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much more important than honesty, is to be liked and
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respected by my parents. So the context in which usually
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what we call virtues are children are exposed to or or
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brought up with is in an ambivalent context where it's
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not really about this content, for example, of honesty or
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compassion or diligence or whatever you want to take, but
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it's about acceptance and love. And this is what we get a trade
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off. Let me develop honesty in order
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to be accepted. OK, so this is the original
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situation. And then after a while, what
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happens with children is that they internalize this value,
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this virtue, and then we don't need the parents anymore to tell
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us, or to reward us, or to sanction or punish us.
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We do it ourselves. And the term for this is
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Introjection comes from Latin and literally means to be thrown
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inside. And why I emphasize the throne
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inside is that it's not really digested and it's not really
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integrated. So what is happening in an
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introjection is to for something, an alien body, which
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is for example the value or the virtue of parents to be thrown
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inside my system, it is relatively isolated.
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If I don't follow it, my own system punishes me.
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But again, as I said, for my purposes this is not a real
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virtue. A real virtue is something that
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I have developed for myself. I got to understand it and I
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have implemented it not in the way that society wants or my
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parents or my peers want, but exactly as I want.
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Why is that important? Because if I do it with such
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subtlety and diligence towards my own system, it develops a
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whole new relationship with the unconscious, where the
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unconscious reacts in an ambivalent way to an interject.
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So to educated values, if I integrated and consciously work
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with it, the unconscious is quite willing to submit its own
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needs under those virtues, under those values.
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The result of this is that a truly value or virtue oriented
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person is quite at peace with themselves because they are left
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in peace by their unconscious. Their unconscious is not
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bothering them, they're standing behind them because of how well
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integrated and thought through the implementation of those
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virtues are. So virtues, as you could
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understand from my examples, they are maxims of life, of an
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almost religious quality. Again, they're consciously
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chosen and because they're so consciously chosen, developed,
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nourished, fine-tuned, etcetera, they're also very simple to make
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conscious. Again, what I mean with that is
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if a person comes up to me and asks me what is important in my
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life, what are my guiding principles?
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If I'm a virtue oriented person, I can quite easily just evoke my
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virtues inside of me and talk to them about how it is important,
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why it is important, the history of my implementation and so
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forth Versus if it's an introject super ego, the stuff
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that consists of musts and shoulds and shouldn't, mustn't,
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then it may be quite difficult for me to answer those
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questions. What are my guides in principle?
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Because good part of those introjects are just unconscious
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and I'm not noticing them anymore.
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There are on autopilot and are difficult to bring up into
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consciousness again. And what is essential about
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virtues? I tried to put it in different
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ways so that you get an understanding of it.
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The whole being resonates with the virtues.
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It's not a splinter, it's not a fragment.
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It's not one voice among many that is connected in an
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ambivalent way with those other voices.
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Basically, my whole being stands behind the virtue.
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And so virtues are something that quite, in a straight manner
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represent the good for me because I stand behind them,
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because my unconscious stays behind them, my needs stand
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behind them. And just a different way of
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putting it is it's good for me and it's good for me, not just
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for myself, because a virtue is not characterized by a selfish
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or self oriented nature. Even when I perceive that
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someone is acting on this virtue independently from me, and I
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don't get any benefit from it, if I if I have honesty as a as a
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virtue and I witness how someone else is honest, I am joyful with
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them or for them. Even if I don't, benefits
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directly from that. So regardless if I act on it or
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someone else or society, my heart opens up, My being
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resonates. I find it good, it's good for
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me, it's good for others. And just because the content on
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the word level is so similar to interjects, it is so essential
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to distinguish the two. And I would give you would like
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to give you an example. If we take a radical
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environmentalist for example, just from their attitude it's
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not possible to distinguish if they are virtue oriented or
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neurotic, as I call it ambivalent, childish and so on.
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We have to see what happens in the process of the
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implementation of the application.
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So a virtue oriented environmentalist remains
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satisfied regardless of the effects or the successes of
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their actions, because they're following something that they
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find good in itself. They don't depend on a
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fulfilment or achieving a goal. They are fine with doing what is
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important and good for them. The neurotic environmentalists
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on the other hand is guided by aggression, often enough
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self-righteous arrogance. And when they fail to achieve
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their goals they become frustrated because they are
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result oriented, disillusioned and ultimately depressed.
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Now, does a virtue oriented person necessarily have to be a
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good person? No.
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Often enough this will be the case because like I said, it is
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integrated and there is some goodwill that it needs to
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connect to. But in some rare examples, it's
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possible that they act in a quite harsh or disrespectful or
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antisocial ways and still remain value oriented just because they
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have morphed their whole character and their unconscious
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in that direction. So someone who is a radical
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environmentalist could be value and virtue oriented and still,
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for example, commit crimes against other people just
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because they have warped. They have change their
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personality and their direction and they could still remain
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unaffected by the results of their actions and it could still
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be the most important thing for them to actually do those
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actions that they find important without looking or depending so
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much on the outcome. OK now every type that I
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describe of the three, and again the three are virtual
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orientation needs orientation as the self avoidant type.
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Every type has its own problems, challenges or dangers as I call
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it. The virtue oriented.
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I've identified three types of dangers or challenges.
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One is that they can. It might be possible easily to
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suppress their needs when they Orient their actions and
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communication towards virtues. Why is that?
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Because they are not fully skilled in the implementation of
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virtues. They have good intentions in
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mind. But when it comes to an
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implementation, the virtues are not yet fully digested, which
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means that the unconscious has not fully submitted itself to
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the virtues, which again in turn means that the needs of the
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unconscious, the drives, the desires of the unconscious are
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still fully active in a somewhat isolated way.
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And then if the person is value oriented, let's say they're
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quite idealistic, they want to do the right thing, They have
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partly chew chewed, they have partly processed the virtues
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into the system. But there is still, let's say
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for example, their needs and drives of power inside of them,
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The person, because they don't want them.
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They want to be value oriented, virtue oriented.
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They neglect those needs and drives.
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They don't want them because they want to be good people
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according to their virtues. What follows is that the
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unconscious is not convinced fully.
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It has those needs for power, let's say wants to act them out.
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The conscious subject doesn't want to see it, doesn't want to
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hear. It suppresses those needs and
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the unconscious is punishing the subject with uncomfortable
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feelings and it reduces the communication to the conscious
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part which leads to dissatisfaction and eventually
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down the road to depressive episodes.
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So this is the most important challenge or danger I would say
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for the virtue oriented type which is to suppress their
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needs. The second danger for me is that
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a person was virtue oriented and has done their work in that
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respect. As time goes by, they rely too
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much on the virtues remaining the same.
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In this we cannot do every couple of months, every couple
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of years we have to update the importance of what we are
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following so that it remains alive and in this example.
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If someone has not updated their virtues, they become again
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neurotic introjects done by themselves, copies of what in
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the past was wholesome, resonant, and so on.
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And then again, the unconscious is retrieving is sabotaging, is
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claiming its own rights, is basically not submitting itself
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and not submitting submitting its needs.
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And the third danger is falsely viewing neurotic interjects of
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the Super ego as virtues. This is what I already mentioned
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that I like humbleness. I want to give that more space
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in my life, but actually I have not done the work.
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I just take the title. I'm fascinated by the idea.
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I want to slap that label onto my actions and my thoughts to be
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a good Buddhist, to be a good person, to be not competitive,
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whatever it is. But then in the end, it's just a
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label. My unconscious is not convinced
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and so again it reacts to make sure to drive this
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differentiation home between virtual orientation and
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neurotic, as I call it, introjects.
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Someone who is following introjects will never achieve
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the goal and they are frustrated by that.
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They end up wanting to control circumstances or themselves in
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order to get there. Many people are like that.
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The virtue oriented person is satisfied with following the
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right, the good thing to do, and they simply don't need to
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control others or themselves for that purpose.
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The self worth remains intact, in other words, regardless of
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the fulfillment of the virtue or the implementation of the
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virtue. Now let's look at a successful
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implementation after reflecting a bit on the challenges when a
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virtuous successfully implemented and applied in life.
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Still, the conscious subject me, the person is not addressing
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their unconscious. And this is quite a remarkable
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thing. By having worked through,
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chewed, developed the virtue and implement implemented fully into
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their life, they have achieved an integration of their
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personality, so that the goal of the subject, the goal of the
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person, is basically achieved. The goal of the person in life
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to find unity, satisfaction, calmness.
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And so the unconscious simply is hardly participating, or not as
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a disturbing factor. Of course we need the
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unconscious to properly function, but it doesn't appear
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as a separate agent within us. Giving us voices, impulses
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drives dreams, dissatisfaction, trying to guide us into other
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directions. It simply does not do that
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because of the integrative power of the virtue orientation in
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general. So it's not about gaining
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perfection when we are virtue oriented, but simply to do the
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right thing by having the proper, clear orientation in any
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major situation. In my life now, all three types
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have characteristic relationships with
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circumstances. They have characteristic
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relationships to themselves, and there are implications about the
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social life, the interpersonal realm.
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Now what is the relationship of the virtue oriented to
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circumstances, to their life circumstances?
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Interesting here and of therapeutic relevance.
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When implemented, the virtue oriented subject does not depend
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on the environment. So what follows from that is a
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virtual orientation gives me a lot of autonomy, self-reliance,
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independence. It looks like self-control, but
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actually it is not. Nothing needs to be controlled
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there, because self-control would be in the realm of an
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ambivalent relationship to the unconscious.
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I don't need to manage uncomfortable feelings or
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thoughts that come up that would make me defensive, that would
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make me anxious, depleted, reflect my position to
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authority, question how I should deal with my partner, and so on.
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All of that is irrelevant. I'm doing the right thing for
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me. I'm following the virtues that I
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have put into my own system. So the main advantage from a
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therapeutic perspective of someone to develop the virtues
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in their life, the virtual orientation, is to become less
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dependent, more independent from the immediate environment,
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because so much of dissatisfaction and pain comes
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from that interaction with the outside world and from people.
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So virtual orientation would be a cleaning, a simplification,
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gathering strength through that independence and by doing what
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is good for me And as I see the process, at least after a while,
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I can open up more to the interaction between me and the
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surroundings. So this film, this layer of
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independence that I have acquired through virtue
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orientation can remain intact, ideally become semi permeable so
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that I can relate more to other people.
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I can relate more to work and thus just gain different
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qualities and life, which I will talk about when I reflect on the
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needs oriented person. To give you a small hint, the
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virtue oriented person is calm, peaceful, the needs oriented.
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The successful, needs oriented person is happy and joyful.
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So depending on what I want in life, ideally I think most
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people would prefer a mix of the two of calmness and joy.
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And in order to get there I propose that it might be
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beneficial to start with more of a virtue orientation and then to
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bring in more needs into my life to fulfil them and thus become
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more happy and joyful in general.
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Now, what is my relation to myself?
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If I'm virtue oriented again, I'm not too much interested in
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what is going on inside of me. I'm not addressing my
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unconscious. The unconscious submits to me.
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What I need to do is as I described in the challenges or
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dangers I have to maintain my virtual orientation updated
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every once in a while. It doesn't have to be, certainly
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not on a day-to-day basis or not even on a month to month basis,
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but every couple of months. Every few years I have to do a
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big check up and to see if my virtual orientation is still the
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same, if I have to reframe it for myself or if I have to
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reprioritize my virtues and in the interpersonal area, in the
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social realm, what is the effect of a virtual orientation there?
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And this is quite unique. We see the fingerprint there
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because a virtue oriented person might seem quite aloof,
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independent, cold, untouchable, Not for the wrong reasons,
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right? There might be people who are
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neurotic, or there are many types of people who are
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unhealthy and who because of their unhealthy approach or
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difficult life experiences or for whatever reason, they seem
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to be cut off from the contact to other people.
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The virtue oriented person is also cut off in a very specific
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way because they're simply not interested in satisfying social
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needs that they would have with other people.
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Why? Because social needs belong to
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the unconscious. The social realm can be
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represented by virtues, for example kindness, benevolence.
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But here it's not about building a relationship with someone in
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such an orientation. When I have kindness as a
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virtue, the people around me basically give me the
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possibility to act on my virtue, but it's not that I satisfy my
30:15
needs with them. Again, to make it clear, if I'm
30:20
fulfilling the kindness is not my interest, I'm not needs
30:24
oriented, so there might be someone in the needs of help
30:29
around me. I want to be kind because I'm
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have. Kindness is one of the important
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virtues. Ioffer them my support and
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they're rejected. I'm totally fine.
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It doesn't faze me. I'm not defined by the
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satisfaction of a certain goal I'm offering.
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I'm living my principles. I'm living my virtues, and
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whether it manifests in some sort of a conclusion is not of
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my interest. I already done the good deed for
30:55
myself. OK, so this was the basic
31:00
reflection on virtue orientation.
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I hope you join me in the upcoming weeks for the
31:06
discussion of the needs oriented person and the self avoidant
31:10
orientation. And please leave comments below
31:14
if you have questions and I will try to get into them in the
31:18
following episodes. Thank you and see you then.