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Liturgy · Formed

0:10
SPEAKER_00: Thanks for listening to Formed.
0:13
SPEAKER_00: This podcast, at least our hope for this podcast, is to look at corporate worship, which is our formational focus this fall and different elements of that.
0:22
SPEAKER_00: So this is the second week of looking at corporate worship.
0:26
SPEAKER_00: Two weeks ago was the first one.
0:27
SPEAKER_00: Vince and I talked through what's the corporateness of corporate worship.
0:31
SPEAKER_00: Um, and then on the off weeks to talk about topics and questions that are sent in.
0:34
SPEAKER_00: So I hope this is helpful.
0:36
SPEAKER_00: Uh today we get to talk about liturgy.
0:40
SPEAKER_00: Um, it's a it I often get feedback that it is a uh a significant, at least very noticeable part about how we gather corporately each Sunday morning.
0:52
SPEAKER_00: And so we're gonna talk about it just from a high-level view.
0:55
SPEAKER_00: And in the coming weeks, we'll take various elements of our liturgy and do more of a deep dive.
0:59
SPEAKER_00: So, for example, we'll look at music and some of the theology of music in our in our worship.
1:06
SPEAKER_00: We're gonna look at the word preached, we'll look at the ordinances.
1:09
SPEAKER_00: But today we could look at liturgy kind of from a high-level view.
1:12
SPEAKER_00: And I have a special guest with me today.
1:14
SPEAKER_00: My special guest is one of our elders, John File.
1:18
SPEAKER_00: Good afternoon.
1:20
SPEAKER_00: Welcome, John.
1:21
SPEAKER_00: Um, I'm looking forward to this conversation with you.
1:23
SPEAKER_00: You're a thoughtful individual, and I also know that from some of your story, you just had different exposures to liturgy.
1:31
SPEAKER_00: And so maybe let's just start right there.
1:33
SPEAKER_00: Share with us a little bit about what your experience growing up to the present day has been with liturgy, particularly within the local church.
1:42
SPEAKER_01: Sure.
1:42
SPEAKER_01: Thanks, Eric.
1:43
SPEAKER_01: It's good to be here.
1:45
SPEAKER_01: Um Yeah, liturgy is not something that's foreign to me.
1:49
SPEAKER_01: So I grew up um in a church in Cincinnati, Ohio, uh PCA Church, uh Presbyterian Church in America.
1:59
SPEAKER_01: Uh church that that had a liturgy.
2:02
SPEAKER_01: I was used to sitting in rows of chairs and um standing up, grabbing the uh red hymnals we had and singing and sitting down and different different prayers, different um times of response.
2:19
SPEAKER_01: Uh that as a kid just felt normal.
2:24
SPEAKER_01: I don't know that I had a positive or negative view.
2:27
SPEAKER_01: It was just what what I was what I was used to.
2:30
SPEAKER_01: Um honestly, I felt as I reflect on my fifty or so years of life of various churches I've been a part of, I think that sometimes when you experience a change or even the loss of something you were used to, it's when you begin to appreciate what was there.
2:51
SPEAKER_01: Um and uh you know, different churches I was involved in in in college, uh as a young adult.
2:59
SPEAKER_01: Um then as Sarah and I got married and different places we were, as well as even being overseas, being involved in some mission churches and such.
3:07
SPEAKER_01: Uh there's no doubt that every gathering of God's people is gonna have a slightly different expression of what it means to gather uh together to worship, and yet there are there are clear threads of what what really is what connotates biblical um or biblically grounded worship.
3:29
SPEAKER_01: So before I start wandering, why don't is there more that you want to know besides that?
3:35
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so and I should say by liturgy we mean like the different aspects of our gathering that we walk through every week.
3:42
SPEAKER_00: So the town church, we have it on the screen up front.
3:46
SPEAKER_00: Um, those different pieces, like from welcome to adoration and proclamation and confession response, and there's more, those pieces of what we are referring to as liturgy, kind of the order of service, what you walk through.
3:58
SPEAKER_00: And so, John, with your story, it sounds like in growing up, it wasn't really positive or negative, this is just what we do.
4:05
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I would say um becoming a parent, uh raising our our children um in the church, that there was a sense of appreciating a liturgy and appreciating how an intentionally structured service did disciple our children, certainly through the the content and through the word preached and through uh the songs that we sang, but there was something about the structure.
4:36
SPEAKER_01: Again, whether our our kids realized it or not, incorporating a time of confession, incorporating a time where we are uh assured of our forgiveness in Christ as his own, um entering into uh the Lord's table and uh Lord's Supper and being reminded of Christ's sacrifice in a tangible um way with actual touch and taste and these different components, realizing that okay, our kids are being formed through this process.
5:11
SPEAKER_01: Uh fast forward to when we moved to northern Colorado.
5:14
SPEAKER_01: We had been living overseas in Japan for a while.
5:16
SPEAKER_01: When we moved to northern Colorado uh visiting the town church, we were struck by that intentionality of the liturgy and the process.
5:27
SPEAKER_01: And certainly we got to know and really appreciate transparent leadership and uh biblically based uh approach.
5:35
SPEAKER_01: Um, but that liturgy was really the first thing we saw, and it was a positive impression, and we were encouraged by that.
5:41
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and for some people that liturgy can be confusing or it can have some negative connotations depending on church background and exposure and maybe things that they've walked through or been forced to walk through before.
5:56
SPEAKER_00: Like for me growing up, uh liturgy uh was never a piece of the conversation the church I grew up in.
6:04
SPEAKER_00: Every church has a liturgy, at least if you think about it as this is just, you know, we sing a couple of songs, and then we have the sermon, and we sing a couple more songs, and whatever you might fill your gathering with, that that's your liturgy, your order of service in a sense.
6:17
SPEAKER_00: So we had that.
6:18
SPEAKER_00: Like every week is it's very similar to what we do and when we do it.
6:22
SPEAKER_00: But it wasn't something I ever gave thought to, and it is just what it is.
6:27
SPEAKER_00: I think for me, it wasn't really until I started attending the town church where it was more up front, it was clearly defined.
6:35
SPEAKER_00: Um, and it wasn't long, but it was maybe a few weeks, maybe a few months.
6:40
SPEAKER_00: I really came to love liturgy, like intentional thought through this is what we do, when we do it, and why we do it, sort of thing.
6:48
SPEAKER_00: But that that was pretty new to me, at least to think about it in an intentional sort of way.
6:53
SPEAKER_01: You know, one thing that did stand out stand out to us at the town church, and we've appreciated along the way, is we're actually reminded visually of the liturgy and and as we move through it.
7:06
SPEAKER_01: So I've been in a lot of services that had a structured liturgy, but it wasn't necessarily as obvious.
7:14
SPEAKER_01: Certainly back in the day when we always had paper bulletins, yeah, it might be it might be written, the little header for what section you're in.
7:21
SPEAKER_01: Um but as paper bulletins have kind of gone to the wayside, it may or may not be as noticeable to one participating in gathered worship.
7:32
SPEAKER_01: And I appreciate that we do remind ourselves of of the intentional steps that we're taking of reminding ourselves of what's true.
7:42
SPEAKER_01: And uh and one just a little bonus thing that probably from the very first Sunday we were here, I loved that sometimes we're singing a song and there's a little musical break or something that we put scripture up on the screen to reflect on as we're singing, and often it's it's very closely tied to the the concept of that song.
8:02
SPEAKER_01: And I thought, what an intentional, beautiful way of pulling in scripture in.
8:07
SPEAKER_01: So that's a little side bonus that we appreciate about the town church.
8:11
SPEAKER_00: But so I wonder, John, like I would love just to have a conversation a little bit about the liturgy in general here and some of the thought behind it, and maybe some of the whys and some of the uh form and function of our liturgy, particularly at the town church.
8:30
SPEAKER_00: So let me just walk through the different pieces really quick, and then let's just talk about as a whole.
8:36
SPEAKER_00: So, the very beginning, we're welcomed in.
8:39
SPEAKER_00: There's a call of worship.
8:41
SPEAKER_00: We have been using a welcome and actually reading through a welcome.
8:44
SPEAKER_00: Um, we're welcomed in into a sense, we're welcomed into the table together.
8:50
SPEAKER_00: Um both believers are welcome and have been welcomed, as well as there's an invitation to those who are unbelievers to that you welcome here as well.
8:59
SPEAKER_00: So there's a welcome, there's a call to worship.
9:01
SPEAKER_00: This is what we're here to do.
9:02
SPEAKER_00: And then we spend some time through music and also through prayer and adoration that recognizing who God is and the greatness of our God.
9:11
SPEAKER_00: So the very beginning of our gathering is a welcome, a call to worship.
9:14
SPEAKER_00: We're actually worshiping through music in prayer at that point or adoration.
9:18
SPEAKER_00: To close that out, there's always a prayer of adoration.
9:21
SPEAKER_00: Then after that, we go into a greeting time.
9:24
SPEAKER_00: The greeting time is not a throwaway time, it's very intentional.
9:28
SPEAKER_00: It's not just a transition time, it's not because we don't know what else to do, but in the greeting time, we now get to welcome each other like we have been welcomed in by Christ.
9:38
SPEAKER_00: So the very beginning is welcome in by Christ.
9:40
SPEAKER_00: We're welcome to be here.
9:41
SPEAKER_00: And then the greeting time is more horizontal.
9:43
SPEAKER_00: We get to greet each other in.
9:45
SPEAKER_00: We're a part of a body here.
9:46
SPEAKER_00: This is not just individual.
9:47
SPEAKER_00: After the greeting time, there's a proclamation.
9:50
SPEAKER_00: So if you use this imagery of being welcomed on the table, the proclamation, in a sense, is now we get a feast on the word of God.
9:57
SPEAKER_00: Uh this is God's word to us that's being preached to us by somebody who's qualified to do so that knows our you the vast majority of the time, knows our body.
10:08
SPEAKER_00: Um, and we are trusting and being led by the Spirit to communicate God's word to us.
10:13
SPEAKER_00: After that, there's a response by us in confession.
10:17
SPEAKER_00: We've heard God's word proclaimed to us that often will reveal things in us for us to confess and to ask for the Spirit to help us heal us and to help us in repentance.
10:29
SPEAKER_00: So we have some time of confession as well as preparing to take the Lord's Supper, which is all part of a response here.
10:34
SPEAKER_00: Um, taking the Lord's Supper itself is a tangible rehearsal of the gospel.
10:38
SPEAKER_00: It's like the whole gathering in a microcosm is the Lord's Supper.
10:42
SPEAKER_00: So we prepare for that, we're able to celebrate that as believers.
10:45
SPEAKER_00: Um, usually for us, that enters then into a time of a couple of songs, which is um a response to what we have now just witnessed.
10:55
SPEAKER_00: Um before that, I should mention there's there's always a pre uh an assurance that God does hear our prayers, an assurance of confession, uh of forgiveness, excuse me, a response.
11:05
SPEAKER_00: And then at the very end, we send each other back out.
11:07
SPEAKER_00: Like in a sense, we're leaving the table together with a benediction straight out of God's word to encourage us throughout the next week before we gather again together as a as a body.
11:16
SPEAKER_00: So from just a high level, that's a little bit the way that it flows through.
11:18
SPEAKER_00: Welcome, call to worship, adoration, prayer of adoration, greeting, proclamation, confession, assurance, response, and then a benediction that we're sent back out.
11:27
SPEAKER_00: So let's just zoom out a little bit.
11:29
SPEAKER_00: What are some things that you notice about the form and function of the liturgy as a whole, John?
11:34
SPEAKER_00: Like let's just talk through that a little bit.
11:36
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I maybe put most simply it's a beautiful way to remember what is true because we're forgetful.
11:49
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
11:50
SPEAKER_01: Um probably it's rare for someone with let's say a couple of decades of walking uh in faith as a believer, you you're gonna be familiar with generally the the passages and the context, you probably heard the songs before.
12:11
SPEAKER_01: There's a lot of things that just seem like, oh, I've been here before, and yet the reality is, particularly by the work of the Holy Spirit, these truths get illuminated in our hearts uh in a fresh way, and the way that they're put together in the context.
12:29
SPEAKER_01: So by walking through a an intentional um liturgy, uh it's not that every week is the same are the same words being said, every week the same categories, the same biblical categories that are reinforced through scripture in lots of ways.
12:47
SPEAKER_01: As you read about the early church, um as we see God's people gathered in the Old Testament, that that these same uh concepts are present, and yet each week there's a a fresh um way of introducing those same truths.
13:04
SPEAKER_01: So that's really the biggest reason that I resonate with the liturgy is it reminds me of things that are easy to forget.
13:12
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, there are things like for example, every week there are things about who God is that we are reminded of that we rehearse in some ways.
13:22
SPEAKER_00: There's different angles to it, there's different words to it, but we are always reminded of God's holiness, we're always reminded of his goodness, reminded of his love.
13:30
SPEAKER_00: Whether it's from the welcome or from the confession or from the word preached, like these are things we're reminded about who God is.
13:37
SPEAKER_00: And also the function of our liturgy reminds us about who we are in response, right?
13:42
SPEAKER_00: So if we are a part of God's people, we are reminded that God loves us beyond we can possibly imagine.
13:48
SPEAKER_00: He has initiated and welcomed us in.
13:50
SPEAKER_00: Beautiful.
13:51
SPEAKER_00: I need to be reminded of that.
13:52
SPEAKER_00: My role is receiver and responder primarily, and not initiator.
13:56
SPEAKER_00: That's God's role.
13:57
SPEAKER_00: I'm reminded that I still sin.
13:59
SPEAKER_00: Yes, I'm a pee, I'm a part of God's people, but I still sin and I still need sustaining grace to turn away from my sin and to repent and to be healed.
14:08
SPEAKER_00: And I need to be reminded I'm a part of a people.
14:11
SPEAKER_00: It's not just me individually, but we're here together and on and on and on.
14:15
SPEAKER_00: Like these things, even though using different words, our liturgy helps to shape and remind us of every Sunday.
14:22
SPEAKER_01: And each of us in different ways are gonna have our inclinations.
14:27
SPEAKER_01: Perhaps um we're we're drawn quickly to publicly worshiping God together, but we might find it hard to be introspective and to see our own sin.
14:41
SPEAKER_01: And uh and someone else might might have uh different inclinations, but as God's people together, the corporate gathering of God's people, we are all different, we're all in different places or just different seasons of life.
14:56
SPEAKER_01: Um you know, we all have different weeks leading up to that Sunday, to that gathering, and that the the nature of us all kind of being led through God's word intentionally, you know, the fact that we go verse by verse, chapter by chapter through a book means we don't skip things.
15:17
SPEAKER_01: A liturgy also just guards our hearts from skipping the things we don't we don't we aren't drawn to as much.
15:26
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and and to be clear, I think there is a ditch in um in expecting a liturgy to almost be divine in itself, if that makes sense.
15:38
SPEAKER_00: Like the liturgy itself doesn't guard our hearts or save us.
15:42
SPEAKER_00: Um a liturgy is just our way of saying we're really intentional with what we do to to see more of God's truth, right, through the proclamation, through the singing, through the scripture.
15:52
SPEAKER_00: It's an intentional way to do it.
15:54
SPEAKER_00: And so that's what that's what we mean by that's what we mean by liturgy.
15:57
SPEAKER_00: But we aren't holding on to liturgy like it's our savior.
16:00
SPEAKER_00: True.
16:00
SPEAKER_00: We're using it as a means to an end, as a means that we find very valuable.
16:05
SPEAKER_01: Yes, yeah, it is a when we want to do something carefully, yeah.
16:10
SPEAKER_01: So um just a couple weeks ago, a month or so ago, we were back at my parents' house and we were helping them clean out the attic.
16:20
SPEAKER_01: They're getting them ready to move.
16:22
SPEAKER_01: Um actually moved mom and dad out here to Fort Collins, um, which has been a real joy.
16:28
SPEAKER_01: Going through the attic, finding things like our um stuff from our wedding, the uh what do you call it?
16:34
SPEAKER_01: The the stuff.
16:38
SPEAKER_01: The handout, the uh the not the program.
16:41
SPEAKER_01: The the program, yeah.
16:42
SPEAKER_01: Like we had there was a plan for the wedding ceremony, everything from the songs to actually I feel like I'm gonna get it all wrong here.
16:51
SPEAKER_01: So from saying the vows to you know the different components, but it was structured because it was important, and there was a there's some legal things that have to happen.
17:01
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, there are also, you know, as a Christian, there are some things we wanted to emphasize.
17:06
SPEAKER_01: Um so the order of the wedding ceremony, it was important and it was planned ahead and it was put in writing because you wanted to make sure we hit those things.
17:16
SPEAKER_01: Well, I think that that's that the that's what we see in our own way in in a in a liturgy.
17:22
SPEAKER_01: But as you asked me in the very beginning, you know, my experience with liturgy, but I would say the different churches I've been to, the different experiences, even the different countries where I've worshipped, there definitely are differences in what is included, what isn't, or what the order is.
17:39
SPEAKER_01: Um you know, that that isn't set in stone as the eleventh commandment or something.
17:45
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
17:45
SPEAKER_01: Right.
17:46
SPEAKER_01: We see the principles of scripture that we want to value and want to put in front of us.
17:52
SPEAKER_01: Um I I mentioned to you as we were just getting together today that when we moved to Tokyo, Japan, we were working with a Japanese pastor in planting a brand new church in a place where there was no Christian church of any kind.
18:07
SPEAKER_01: It was a slow process.
18:09
SPEAKER_01: And when we started um with publicly gathered worship, initially it was just every other week, and we were just kind of getting our footing.
18:18
SPEAKER_01: But with our with our pastor, we intentionally kind of tinkered with the liturgy, probably for up to six months of trying different things.
18:28
SPEAKER_01: Let's put this before that.
18:29
SPEAKER_01: What if we had the announcements here?
18:31
SPEAKER_01: What if we had the call to worship here?
18:32
SPEAKER_01: But then we did, do we want the confession to be here, or do we want and we just considered how each component naturally led to the next?
18:41
SPEAKER_01: And it's not that there is a necessarily a perfect way to do it, but what's our context?
18:47
SPEAKER_01: What's our situation?
18:48
SPEAKER_01: What does the room look like?
18:49
SPEAKER_01: How many kids do we have?
18:51
SPEAKER_01: What are some practical considerations, but also what are some theological considerations?
18:55
SPEAKER_01: It's just interesting to it seems like the big factor we're emphasizing today is is the intentionality of it.
19:05
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, we're still tinkering with ours.
19:07
SPEAKER_00: If you were with us um recently, you may have noticed we stuck now the announcements at the very, very beginning.
19:13
SPEAKER_00: That isn't an effort to try to protect the flow of the liturgy in general.
19:17
SPEAKER_00: Um, so it doesn't feel like it's such a stop in the middle of the gathering, but try to figure out how can we make this thing flow better.
19:24
SPEAKER_00: So the liturgy and the order is not sacred.
19:27
SPEAKER_00: What was sacrosanct?
19:28
SPEAKER_00: That's the word.
19:29
SPEAKER_00: Sacrosanct.
19:29
SPEAKER_00: Like you get it mess with it and tinker with it and in keeping in mind like why are we doing what we're doing and what's the order?
19:37
SPEAKER_00: And w how do we want to be shaped?
19:40
SPEAKER_00: Like a liturgy shapes us.
19:42
SPEAKER_00: Just like in some ways, like our habits shape us.
19:44
SPEAKER_00: There's a lot of power there.
19:46
SPEAKER_00: Um like when I get ready for the morning, I pretty much do the same thing, like in the same order, usually, and there's usually reason behind it.
19:55
SPEAKER_00: Like I care about having teeth that are clean and and hair that I mean looks okay.
20:00
SPEAKER_00: It doesn't look great, but it looks okay, you know, and on and on.
20:03
SPEAKER_00: Like these things are important.
20:04
SPEAKER_00: I need to get it done before I go on to the next thing.
20:07
SPEAKER_00: Same thing with liturgy, like these things we think are important and they're shaping us also.
20:10
SPEAKER_00: Let's so let's be thoughtful and intentional with it.
20:12
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
20:13
SPEAKER_01: I mean distilled down to its essence, you know, different ways to think about it, but you know, what are the means of grace we typically and historically as the church talk about word, prayer, sacraments or ordinances are are ways that individually we grow uh in God's grace.
20:37
SPEAKER_01: This is also what we do together as God's people.
20:40
SPEAKER_01: Um so we're incorporating God's word, prayers, and not just individually praying, but praying together, and then in a sense, praying those prayers with music and responding with psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs, and then uh the the um the privilege we have as God's people to come together um the Lord's Supper and the joy uh celebrating baptisms uh as a church together, and uh these are you know, in some ways that's the simplest structure, but then we see other things through scripture emphasizing, you know, we just did a sermon this past Sunday about uh the Lord's prayer, and we see that there is an intentional structure that's not um not that we only have to repeat that prayer verbatim, but that it's a teaching tool.
21:34
SPEAKER_01: Jesus is teaching us what are the components of prayer, and we see a diversity of bringing glory to God and yet recognizing our need and our need for provision, but also our need for forgiveness, um, and to be ones that extend forgiveness to others.
21:50
SPEAKER_01: Jesus reminding us of what what is important in the way that he structured that prayer.
21:56
SPEAKER_01: So there's different ways in scripture we can see these components that we pull.
22:00
SPEAKER_01: In into the recipe of our current liturgy.
22:04
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, because that's the other ditch, isn't it?
22:05
SPEAKER_00: Is say, okay, if it's not sacrosanct, then maybe we'll just discard all of it and we'll just make up something new that we're going to do for our time together.
22:13
SPEAKER_00: There's still elements that are biblical that we see the early church doing, but exactly how you walk through those things, there's there's some freedom there to be intentional in how we do it.
22:23
SPEAKER_00: Um so here's an encouragement.
22:27
SPEAKER_00: I would encourage you as listener to try to be well to prioritize being shaped by the entire liturgy, which means being here on time for the welcome.
22:38
SPEAKER_00: Like that's intentional.
22:40
SPEAKER_00: It's a part of what's shaping us, all the way through through the benediction.
22:45
SPEAKER_00: I think at times there there can be this feeling that, well, I'm really here just for the sermon.
22:49
SPEAKER_00: And so um I'll just make sure that like that's the part that I'm gonna most highly prize.
22:56
SPEAKER_00: And maybe I'll kind of be in and out during the other parts.
23:00
SPEAKER_00: Well, the sermon, of course, is important and is in some ways like the feast at the table, but this whole thing is shaping us and showing about who we are and who God is as a people and is meant to be experienced, I don't know if that's the right word, but I'm gonna use it anyway.
23:14
SPEAKER_00: It's meant to be experienced as a whole and not kind of just piecemealed.
23:18
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
23:19
SPEAKER_00: Um, I have a couple questions here, John, that I wonder if some folks may be thinking about the liturgy, but haven't actually voiced.
23:27
SPEAKER_00: And so I'm curious what your thoughts are here, and this might help us talk about the liturgy a little bit more.
23:31
SPEAKER_00: So here's here's probably the number one question that either I have been asked or I suspect people have on their hearts about liturgy.
23:39
SPEAKER_00: Here it is.
23:40
SPEAKER_00: Doesn't a liturgy, a set liturgy, stifle the spirit by creating a rigid structure that must always be followed?
23:48
SPEAKER_00: That's an interesting question.
23:49
SPEAKER_01: And I think uh where we are in our maybe age and stage of life, but even where we are in the world, what's our cultural context maybe informs a question like that.
24:04
SPEAKER_01: That uh I've had the the privilege of serving uh in different places around the world, particularly in Japan, and there are some pretty big cultural shifts between say the the rugged individualism of of the United States uh in a country like Japan or many Asian countries, you have a a strong sense of of community as as being primary over the individual.
24:29
SPEAKER_01: So I think that that question is interesting because it does um it does reveal that there there can be a tension on who we are, made as individuals, with individual responsibility uh for how we respond to God's call, as well as we are a people of God, and we see through scripture that God relates to individuals, but God also relates to his people in a broader sense, and that both are true, and that something like a liturgy um may feel like it stifles the individual expression, and perhaps as North Americans uh we we have a strong value on wait, this isn't what I want to do right now, I want I want it to look a little different, and there are certainly plenty of ways to express your personal faith uh and relationship with God, but there is something beautiful about deferring in some ways to what God is doing more broadly amongst God's people, and that when we are gathering to sing a song together, we follow whether you hear it or not.
25:41
SPEAKER_01: There is a metronome, there is a time signature.
25:44
SPEAKER_01: We're singing on the same beat so that we can sing together.
25:47
SPEAKER_01: If everybody had a different uh time signature or beat that they were singing to, it would be it would be very difficult to sing together, practically impossible, right?
25:57
SPEAKER_01: But yet deferring to what is being shared helps us to realize that we are part of something bigger than ourselves than ourselves.
26:06
SPEAKER_01: So I think that there is a tension there, um, and we we don't want the the expression of our relationship with God to only be a rigid structure.
26:17
SPEAKER_01: And yet I think if we err on the other extreme of saying, hey, just do whatever you want, I think you lose something about um being discipled and matured in um submitting to one another out of reverence for Christ Christ.
26:32
SPEAKER_01: You see that in Ephesians.
26:34
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, there's definitely tensions here, and there's just certainly ditches to avoid, uh, I think on both sides of this.
26:41
SPEAKER_00: Um within within our set liturgy, we're gonna be moving through these same things every week.
26:46
SPEAKER_00: The content is gonna is gonna change a little bit, like the songs we sing, the passage that we're preaching through, but we're gonna be moving through it the same way uh virtually every week.
26:56
SPEAKER_00: However, there's still some freedom within that.
26:59
SPEAKER_00: Um so, for example, I know it's Vince's desire, it's my desire that uh if if we're preaching and we sense that the spirit would have us pause or move in a little bit of a different direction in the moment, um, we want to be able to do that.
27:16
SPEAKER_00: Um within still the liturgy, right?
27:20
SPEAKER_00: This is this is a moment that maybe actually we sing.
27:23
SPEAKER_00: This might seem silly to some people, but maybe we just sing one song at the end instead of two because the spirit's doing something different.
27:28
SPEAKER_00: We have more extended time in prayer or the Lord's Supper or something like that.
27:31
SPEAKER_00: Like those sorts of things are we have an open hand with and very uh very keen to want to follow the spirit in that as he moves.
27:39
SPEAKER_00: And so, yes, we have a liturgy, yet we're gonna move through in certain movements, and at the same time, we want to be sensitive to the spirit and be able to dance within that a little bit.
27:50
SPEAKER_01: So here's something that if you're in the second service, since my family sits basically in the front row on the left, yeah, you might see this, and now you're all gonna be aware, so I'm embarrassed.
28:01
SPEAKER_01: But often, as we are after we've uh taken the elements for communion and coming back to our seat, um often I will stay seated during that second to last song.
28:16
SPEAKER_01: Everybody, you know, most everybody is standing up, but that's one way that I've sort of personalized that.
28:22
SPEAKER_01: I'm not in that moment, not necessarily doing what everyone's doing.
28:26
SPEAKER_01: And you know, I might have my my um kind of my head in my hands, kind of leaning down, sitting, and it just giving me a little bit more space, um knowing myself that when I'm standing up and reading the words, somehow there there are ways that I kind of feel like I'm just going through the motions, and I'm fighting that tendency to just go through the motions, so I'm I'm I have chosen at times to stay seated.
28:54
SPEAKER_01: So that's one small way to have an individual expression of reflection, and then typically we get that last song, which tends to be a little more triumphal, you know, uh response, and then I'm ready to pop up and and join in.
29:08
SPEAKER_01: Not every week, anyway.
29:10
SPEAKER_01: That's just a tiny example of within that intentional structure, still responding in your to the Lord in your own way.
29:18
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I mean a related criticism that can happen is if you do the same things every week, um, it can just make it feel rote or dull, or the significance is kind of ripped out of it.
29:33
SPEAKER_00: So, for example, taking the Lord's Supper every week can just become a routine that you just do kind of thoughtlessly.
29:41
SPEAKER_00: Um what are your thoughts about that?
29:44
SPEAKER_00: Are there other ways to maybe guard against that a little bit?
29:48
SPEAKER_01: Certainly, that's a or it's certainly possible that as we get used to something, we kind of just start going going through the motions.
29:58
SPEAKER_01: I think that is part of where we see the Spirit leading in the one who is bringing the word, whether it's Vince or you, Eric, or someone else, that we see that the way that we are led into the Lord's Supper is gonna be a little different every week.
30:15
SPEAKER_01: The the prayer that's that's put up for us to thoughtfully reflect on is gonna be a little different every week.
30:22
SPEAKER_01: Um so those are small, small ways that perhaps that kind of um overarching purpose and truth gets gets applied a little more specifically each each Sunday, but it it does, I think we have responsibility as well of coming to the Lord with open hearts, open hands.
30:47
SPEAKER_01: God, what do you have for me today?
30:50
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I mean, even talking about the Lord's Supper, uh Paul he talks about taking the Lord's Supper in a manner that is unworthy.
30:59
SPEAKER_00: And um a part of what Paul likely means is taking it in a thoughtless sort of way, where it is just ritual, um, versus um a thoughtful way of the sacrifice that was required um and what's being offered to us, like the gravity of it and the beauty of it.
31:21
SPEAKER_00: Um, so it's not just us not wanting to do things in a ritualistic way, there uh scripturally is a lot of weight to being thoughtful in what we're doing, even though we're going to celebrate it every week because of what it communicates, to be able to do it thoughtfully, um, man.
31:38
SPEAKER_00: Yes, that's what that's what we want.
31:41
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
31:41
SPEAKER_00: Oh, here's another question.
31:43
SPEAKER_00: Um, we kind of hit this earlier, but let me ask it this way.
31:46
SPEAKER_00: Must a liturgy always be just like the one that we do at the town church?
31:51
SPEAKER_01: I would say not inherently.
31:55
SPEAKER_01: Certainly there are scriptural guidelines where we're we're pulling um components to gathered worship that we see in scripture.
32:08
SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, there are there are different principles um that we want to be careful that what we're doing is instructed in God's word, and that we aren't just saying, wow, this would be a fun idea, because there might be something um well taking it to the extreme, you certainly can imagine some things we could attempt to incorporate in our liturgy that would be ultimately distracting or even blasphemous, right?
32:34
SPEAKER_01: We certainly wouldn't want that.
32:35
SPEAKER_01: So there's a spectrum and say, hey, we are gonna do we're gonna choose things in our liturgy that we see in scripture.
32:42
SPEAKER_01: Um but again, there's key components and the the order or the emphasis can shift and me even week to week.
32:56
SPEAKER_01: The order and emphasis could shift um or season to season.
33:01
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
33:01
SPEAKER_00: I don't think I have anything to add to that question.
33:04
SPEAKER_00: Here's the question where did this liturgy come from?
33:08
SPEAKER_00: And um I should have so this liturgy basically was in place when I first started attending, and I know other churches who use a very similar liturgy to this one.
33:20
SPEAKER_00: So we did not just make this up out of the out of the air.
33:24
SPEAKER_00: I am sure that we ripped off it from another church who ripped it off from another church.
33:29
SPEAKER_00: But to your point, John, like there's still something ancient about the flow of corporate worship.
33:35
SPEAKER_00: This isn't just a modern, I don't know, let's try this thing.
33:38
SPEAKER_00: We're actually in line with a lot of what the flow of how churches gather for corporate worship has been for generations upon generations.
33:46
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
33:47
SPEAKER_01: One thing that I think is interesting as we talked about some small changes we've seen, is I think it was within the last year that we made a more noticeable shift from having our time of confession, which was earlier in the service.
34:01
SPEAKER_01: That's right, yeah.
34:02
SPEAKER_01: To I think it was during our time in First Corinthians, to putting that during our time of communion, Lord's Supper, and there's good rationale for both um locations in the service, uh uh call to confession, you know, if you're familiar with the ACTS, sometimes we use that for prayer, adoration, confession, thanksgiving, supplication.
34:29
SPEAKER_01: Having confession earlier in the process does remind us of first of all who God is, who we are, and then God's provision through the gospel.
34:38
SPEAKER_01: But also to see that that communion itself is a rehearsal of the gospel in a microcosm, and that our response that that's a that can perhaps more naturally lead us into a reflection on our sin and on God's provision uh for us through our Savior Jesus.
35:00
SPEAKER_01: Neither of those places in the liturgy are right or wrong.
35:04
SPEAKER_01: There's a different intentionality, and I think even by the fact that we changed it, it took me a little bit to get used to, but now I'm really thankful for it.
35:14
SPEAKER_01: And that, you know, maybe it's just it's sometimes even those little changes show us that there's um intention behind the decisions we make as a church.
35:28
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
35:28
SPEAKER_00: Um John, let me just open it wide open.
35:30
SPEAKER_00: Is it are there any other any other questions, any other thoughts here about liturgy from a a big picture?
35:36
SPEAKER_00: You think it'd be helpful to talk through?
35:38
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, good question.
35:41
SPEAKER_01: Um perhaps building off of what we were talking about earlier is that there is something about deferring to something bigger than ourselves.
35:54
SPEAKER_01: Um and to see that we are part of God's people today, part of God's people gathered in four columns, we're also a part of God's people, the the church.
36:06
SPEAKER_01: Um and through the centuries and through the continents, and I think that there is when something might happen in the service, uh let's say that that feels like, oh, I wouldn't do it that way, or I wouldn't have you know, whatever personal preference we may have, dis there is some value in in seeing that we're part of something bigger.
36:30
SPEAKER_01: I think that's just w if you're new to a liturgy and perhaps you feel a little bit overwhelmed by it, maybe find that there that there are um you know l look for some of those small ways that you can be encouraged and you might find your heart warming to it.
36:50
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
36:50
SPEAKER_00: Well said.
36:52
SPEAKER_00: Well, in the coming weeks, we're gonna break down some specific elements of our liturgy and do a deep dive.
36:58
SPEAKER_00: So in two weeks, we're gonna look at the music portions.
37:02
SPEAKER_00: Um later on we'll look at at uh the word and the ordinances.
37:06
SPEAKER_00: So stay tuned and we get explored this a little bit more.
37:09
SPEAKER_00: But thanks for listening.
37:10
SPEAKER_00: Hope this was encouraging.