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Smashing the Glass Ceiling · Authentic Living

• 0:31
  Welcome to authentic living with Roxanne on Global Voice Adia.
• 0:36
  Join Roxanne Derhodge and her thought provoking conversations, the catalyst to live your life
• 0:42
  to the fullest.
• 0:58
  So, hi, everyone.
• 0:59
  It's, Roxanne Derhodge.
• 1:00
  Thanks so much for tuning in again, to authentic living Roxanne.
• 1:05
  So today I have a very, very special guest.
• 1:07
  This is, someone, that's been a colleague for goodness.
• 1:10
  I'm trying to remember how long at least over 15 years, I would think.
• 1:15
  Over 15 years.
• 1:16
  15 years.
• 1:17
  Miss, Carolyn Kotsi.
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  Carolyn, brings an impressive, resume.
• 1:22
  She did when worked with her in a corporate consulting, but has done some amazing things
• 1:27
  since.
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  And, Carolyn, I'm, I'm just gonna read a bit about your bio and, I'm gonna love to hear just
• 1:34
  from Carolyn Swartz, what things she's been up to.
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  Obviously, she's a passionate strategic, leader.
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  She's been successful in the corporate world.
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  Well over 25 years, being a VP and a senior VP, in some major roles with, huge organizations,
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  She's founded the woman in governance, and I would like her to say it in French.
• 1:58
  You see, I would I would not say that well.
• 2:00
  It sounds so much better when it comes from you.
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  This is a a place in Canada that, organization nonprofit has been developed to, work with
• 2:09
  women in leadership to advance their careers on boards, in Canada.
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  And, some of the major initiatives is having major events with inspiring women, to have
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  local and international speaking, engagements, a there's a robust, mentoring program for women
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  at the VP level.
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  To reach the C suite and the board and the and governance courses and a corporate parity
• 2:37
  certification.
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  You've had your backgrounds in HR, and, you were born in Beirut.
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  You lived there till from age seven to twenty two.
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  And, you've recently won multiple awards of 1, one of the ones that stick out, the most is
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  that you're the top 100 most powerful women in Canada.
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  Wow.
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  That's amazing.
• 3:00
  And most recently, not that, you haven't, some of the big interviews in the most recent one,
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  with was with Hillary Clinton, which I know has been spreading like wife wildfire and, Justin
• 3:13
  Trudeau, princess Sarah Zeed of, Jordan amongst lots.
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  There's a long list here, but I, I just want Carolyn to be able to be able to share with
• 3:24
  you.
• 3:24
  So, Carolyn, thanks so much for being here and, spending the time with us today.
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  So What I, what I do is to have women like you that are inspiring the world, not just women,
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  but also, men to really kind of use their authentic voice and in looking at what you've
• 3:42
  been doing, amazingly so you and I have been at the corporate level.
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  We under some of the corporate pressures, but you've kind of gone on and, and really, created
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  a space for women, in the VP level.
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  So Sorry.
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  Tell me a little bit about you.
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  Tell me a little bit about Carolyn and what she's been up to in the last little while.
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  Well, so as you mentioned, we used to work together, many years ago, and, my career has
• 4:09
  been very flourishing all the way to the senior vice president role that I was, that I had a
• 4:16
  health for 4 years at Canada's largest medical expertise firm.
• 4:20
  Which I left at the beginning of the sea of last year, at beginning of 2017, to actually
• 4:26
  focus on the non for profit that I had created 7 years early And the reason why I had to make
• 4:32
  this difficult decision was that the non profit had become so huge that it was just literally
• 4:39
  impossible to continue to manage it on the side, especially when I was in a major role in
• 4:45
  the corporate world, So it was, it was a very difficult decision, but I can tell you I never
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  looked back since it's been an unbelievable year.
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  And I know 2018 is going to be even more spectacular.
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  So you mentioned our our events.
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  We always have amazing peakers, at our events.
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  We have men.
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  We have women on stage.
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  When we have panels, we never have only women.
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  We always like to have the perspective of at least one man.
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  Also, because, you know, we would criticize any panel that is only, composed of men.
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  I think it's you know, paramount importance that men are involved in the discussion.
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  They still have the power.
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  They are the ones who will decide whether they open the door or not to a boardroom.
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  So if we don't have them as allies, we're probably not gonna get very far.
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  And I can tell you that one of the reasons that women and governance has been so successful is
• 5:45
  because we have actually parity on our board.
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  We have 9 board members, 5 men, 5 women and 4 men, And on all our committees, we have men.
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  So we take their perspective that we use them as sponsors.
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  We use them as, you know, ambassadors of of the cause, and it goes a long way.
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  So at our events, there's about, I would say, maybe 35% men 40% men, which compared to, you
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  know, other, events, for the cause of advancement of women is is pretty good.
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  We, so so our our events is what started us, is what kind of put us on the map 7 years ago
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  because I did a lot of high level interviews that people were interested.
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  After that, we realized that that wasn't enough.
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  You know, women come, they listen, they're inspired.
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  Do they apply these things to more mourning in their lives, not necessarily.
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  So we thought we should take it a step further and put in place a mentoring program where
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  we're actually for 12 months matching a woman who's at the DP level.
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  We take women who are already pretty senior.
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  And for many people, it seems like they've already gone for the glass ceiling, but in my
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  book, Not yet.
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  Right.
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  Right.
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  We want them to become president.
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  We want them to chair boards.
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  We want them to sit on major boards, paying boards, not talking about non for profit.
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  There are women all over non for profit boards because, you know, men are are less interested
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  and women don't mind not being paid.
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  This needs to stop.
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  And for 12 months, they're supported in terms of you know, having the guts to actually accept
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  a role that seems to be beyond them taking a stretch assignment, getting out of their
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  comfort zone, also coached around, you know, do you have all that takes in terms of, your
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  professional experience, your education, your network, etcetera.
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  We've also added to that governance courses where We also want women to feel that, yes,
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  they have all that it takes to sit on a board.
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  We're really, you know, ticking all the boxes to make sure women can't say No, I'm not ready
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  for this.
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  And, our parity certification that you've mentioned, and we're going national with a
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  parity certification in 2018.
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  It's It's been, it's last year.
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  It's been launched last year, and we were, focused on Quebec, well, national or
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  multinational organizations, but for the Quebec employees only.
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  Last year, we had 17 organizations certified, 3 of which were platinum, that's RBC Royal Bank,
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  Sun Life and, intact insurance.
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  All seventeen are major organizations, and we've decided this year to give them a chance
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  to to submit, nationally, not just provincially.
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  And we think we'll have between 75100 organizations who will, come on board.
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  So our goal is for every organization in Canada, to want to be certified.
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  We want every candidate male or female during an interview to ask the, to ask HR, are you
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  certified?
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  Because that will give them an idea of the culture and the importance that that
• 9:02
  organization puts around the advancement of women and gender equality.
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  So tell me a bit more about that, the parity, kind of, what's involved?
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  Like, I mean, you're talking about huge companies.
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  I'm sure you have, you know, the breath of sizes, but when you're talking parity, you're
• 9:19
  How do you kind of decide what that metric looks like in an organization?
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  So it's a pretty, extensive process, it would take typically to an HR, executive or someone
• 9:34
  on their team about 3 to 4 hours to complete.
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  Once they've got all the data, under, under their hands, because we are not only asking
• 9:44
  questions around the board and the executive committee and, you know, how many women and
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  just a quantitative aspect.
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  But first of all, we're also asking for qualitative data, and I'll get more into that
• 9:57
  in a second.
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  A second of all, we're going to all levels of the organization from entry level roles.
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  So from your receptionist, from your your clerks, all the way to your CEO and to the,
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  your, your board.
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  And the, the questions are around, you know, again, number of women, etcetera, but also
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  around policies and procedures that have been implemented to allow women to advance their
• 10:21
  career.
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  So, our minimum is 400 employees.
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  That was the case for minimum 400 in Quebec.
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  Now it's going to be minimum 400 nationally.
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  But we will have a certification for small and medium businesses as of 2019.
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  Right now, we're focused on the larger ones simply because what we've built and we were
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  supported by McKinsey And Company in building that questionnaire, which is about close to 50
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  questions.
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  What we built is really, around the policies and the processes that are in place typically
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  in a larger organization.
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  So once we will, implement it for smaller businesses, we're going to have to revamp that
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  questionnaire.
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  There are questions that will not be pertinent.
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  Because in a large and in a small business, you know, sometimes you you hardly have a dedicated
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  HR.
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  So let alone a question you have a dedicated person for diversity and inclusion.
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  Right.
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  Absolutely.
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  That's right.
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  So and, we are, obviously, asking questions also around how do these organizations treat,
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  complaints for harassment?
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  How do they resolve, mediate, etcetera?
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  We already have this last year, and it's it's interesting because we built it 2 years ago,
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  launched it last year.
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  And now it seems to be central.
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  So we're we're adding on to, to that, you know, with with the, the me too movement, etcetera.
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  It's become really important to make sure that in all industries it is addressed.
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  And it is it not so timely, right?
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  You know, obviously, we've been women in, you know, executive positions.
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  We understand we understand the sectors that we dealt with.
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  We understand the environments that we're predominantly female versus male.
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  But at this particular point in time, the issues are being highlighted by places like
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  Hollywood where we're seeing, you know, such a big mammoth system being, having to become
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  transparent, because of what's being blown open.
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  So looking at from a small or a micro to a macro, yeah, that brush is just, you know, huge
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  and, at such work that needs to get done.
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  Now tell me, okay, obviously, Where did this passion come from?
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  Like, I mean, I know you've been in business a long time.
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  Where where where, I mean, you know, years ago when we were in together.
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  We were in different roles.
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  Tell me where that burning passion to create what you've created came from.
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  Well, 2 things.
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  First of all, as you mentioned, I was born in Lebanon, I grew up through the war.
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  I've seen a lot of injustices and even, you know, the war started when when I was 7.
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  And even at that time, You know, I was realizing that there were crazy things
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  happening around me and that the dogs were not necessarily rational or fair or equitable And I
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  started, you know, I became very observant at that time.
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  And the the thing that struck me the most was, you know, in Lebanon, everybody has you know,
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  from, I'd say, mid class and up, everybody has mates at home.
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  And they're, for the most part, from Sri Lanka or from the Philippines.
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  And, like everybody else, we we also had maids.
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  And in my family, we always treated them like family.
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  We were always very respectful.
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  We were taught to respect these women.
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  But I would see, in most families, they were actually treated very poorly.
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  Some were raped, some were beaten, had their passports confiscated.
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  I mean, it was for me, it was just unreal.
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  And I always thought to myself, and why like, why why do they treat them differently so they
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  was some racism.
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  There was some sexism misogyny.
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  And overall, the laws in Lebanon are completely flawed.
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  I mean, a Lebanese woman who married a foreigner cannot give her nationality to her
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  children.
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  Lebanese nationality, whereas, obviously, Lebanese man can.
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  Lebanese men cheat on their women on their wives all the time.
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  If the wife cheat, she goes to jail.
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  There's there's crazy things like that that At a very young age, I realized made me crave for
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  justice and equality.
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  And when I came here in 1990, I realized, you know, in my mind, Canada must have been the
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  land of, you know, equality and, and, you know, men, women.
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  It was all the same.
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  And, I got involved in the community.
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  I helped a lot around, women's shelters because I realized, you know, that there there are a
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  lot of difficulties there as well.
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  And I I was, you know, very quickly, in my own career in parallel was just moving.
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  And I realized that women, even in the corporate world, who seemed to have it all,
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  were actually treated unfairly.
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  There was gender wage gap.
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  There were difficulties in terms of, you know, being able to have a voice at the table and,
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  you know, the the the statistics are striking.
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  I mean, there's only 5% of women CEOs in Canada.
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  There's 15.9% of women on corporate boards and 40% of boards in Canada don't even have one
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  woman.
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  Wow.
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  So, you know, it's, it's, it's quite shocking.
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  So I felt that I had, a, need a really strong desire to make a difference there, although I
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  didn't know how to do it.
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  And as my own career was progressing works on, I also realized that I was moving up the ladder
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  with not very many women around me.
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  Mhmm.
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  You know, you're sitting on an executive committee and looking around you and all are
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  men and they're men's blaming and they're interrupting and they're just not used to
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  having a woman around them and you'd say something and they take your idea and repeat it
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  and everybody concurs and you just said it 2 minutes before.
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  So I think that also helped me develop my voice because I, you know, wasn't going to take that,
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  but then I realized that not all women had that type of personality that it requires to be able
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  to do something like this.
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  And I thought, well, maybe if I put in place in sort of a mentoring program, maybe if I give
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  workshops and conferences and speak to these women, I can bring some sort of change.
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  And so I did that, and it's Actually, I did not think that it was going to be that well pro.
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  I knew it would be well received, but I I didn't realize that the need, the huge need
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  that there was, because all of a sudden, people were, like, it was buzzing.
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  It was buzzing.
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  And then came those questions, you know, why you, what, you know, you come from a country
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  where forget about equality.
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  How come you come here and you're asking us to do more?
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  And I still don't know because I know in my country, where for the first time last year, we
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  had a ministry of, status of women, which has led by a man, You know, I know that I will not
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  be able to make any changes over there.
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  I get that.
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  Mhmm.
• 17:29
  Mhmm.
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  Here, we're pretty close to where we should be.
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  We're not there yet, but we need to work.
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  And we need to work with men.
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  We need to work with women.
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  So men now understand that it's not only the ethical thing to do.
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  They get it that if they want to have a better financial performance for their organization,
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  diversity is key.
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  I mean, there's a ton of, research on that.
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  Soak and very robust research.
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  So we don't need to do that anymore to explain why, you know, please, Mr.
• 17:58
  CEO, please, Mr.
• 18:00
  Chair of the board understand that it's in everybody's interest including, you know, not
• 18:05
  only your organization, but the society, the economy, as a whole.
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  So, based on that, women also need to step up because that's the other thing.
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  You know, recently, the Canadian the BDC, the the the Canadian Okay.
• 18:23
  I get that.
• 18:25
  I guess.
• 18:26
  HRDC.
• 18:28
  Sorry?
• 18:28
  Human Resources Development Canada?
• 18:30
  No.
• 18:30
  No.
• 18:30
  No.
• 18:30
  No.
• 18:30
  No.
• 18:30
  No.
• 18:31
  The bank.
• 18:31
  The, business development bank of Canada.
• 18:35
  They were looking for a chair for their board and, I did get a call.
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  I did submit a lot of names and, they were, I know that there were some explorations around,
• 18:49
  some of the names that I had given, which unfortunately did not materialize, and a man
• 18:54
  was nominated.
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  A lot of people Reacted, you know, badly saying, could they have not made an extra
• 18:59
  effort, etcetera?
• 19:00
  I said, yes.
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  Probably they should have started way earlier.
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  Searching for a woman because it will take longer because there are less women who have
• 19:08
  that type of profile at this point, simply because There's less women who have that
• 19:12
  experience.
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  But there's also women who need to say, you know what?
• 19:20
  I may not be ready for the role, but you're offering it to me, and I am going to take it.
• 19:24
  And I'm going to set step up to the plate, and I am going to impress you.
• 19:29
  So we need to take Chris, and that is the only way that we are going to grow.
• 19:33
  If we don't come out of our, If we don't come out of our comfort zone, I mean, nothing magic
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  is ever gonna happen.
• 19:41
  Where it's going to be stable, same old, we're going to stuck in the same jobs, and you need
• 19:47
  to put out your hand.
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  And if somebody taps you on the shoulder, you need to listen and and and dive right in.
• 19:54
  Well, I what I find interesting that you I mean, obviously, you and I both are introverts.
• 19:59
  We talk and we could talk to people and those types of things, but you bring up a very
• 20:02
  important point.
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  You know, when we wear, you know, not maybe not us, I don't have a girl.
• 20:07
  I know you have a girl.
• 20:08
  You know, we the, the women that were around that are younger in our, my frame of reference,
• 20:13
  I, you know, I talked to them about using their voice, being true to themselves, those types of
• 20:18
  things.
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  But if you're not coming from an environment, even if you're smart and you've gotten up
• 20:22
  pretty senior in organization, sometimes you might be, like you said, a little bit more
• 20:27
  reserved you know, you may have the background.
• 20:30
  Maybe you're stepping into something higher where you're thinking, wow, how am I gonna do
• 20:33
  this?
• 20:34
  But it's that stepping into it and taking that risk So the mentoring program that you have,
• 20:40
  does it kind of pair people with more senior people?
• 20:43
  What is the what's involved in the actual mentoring program?
• 20:46
  Yes.
• 20:46
  So, our, as I mentioned, our mentees are at the VP level.
• 20:51
  Our our mentors are for they're both men and women.
• 20:56
  They are at the C suite level.
• 20:58
  For the most part, CEOs, chairs of boards, men or women who sit on on major boards and who can
• 21:06
  recommend, you know, these women for, board openings for jobs, etcetera.
• 21:13
  Because, you know, these women do understand that they're not going to get a major bird
• 21:18
  nomination.
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  If they haven't advanced their career, to a certain level where they've got P And L
• 21:24
  Management, experience where they've got something to bring to the table and we're
• 21:29
  sensitizing boards to not put too much emphasis on bringing, CEOs to the table because they are
• 21:37
  only 5% of women CEO.
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  So It's a vicious miracle.
• 21:40
  Right.
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  And a woman, let's say at a major bank who runs a division who runs a province, manages that
• 21:47
  canal, It's a huge role.
• 21:49
  Yes.
• 21:49
  Her title is senior vice president, but it's a huge role.
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  So, you know, they will go after a man who has less experience.
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  And they will question less visibility than they would for a woman.
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  So that also needs to stop.
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  You know?
• 22:04
  It's until I everybody is comfortable with the concept that, you know, we're, we've got the
• 22:12
  capacities that is that are required.
• 22:14
  We think differently amend, which is why, it is so robust to have a decision making process
• 22:20
  that is, but, you know, shared by both men and women, and which is why we have men on on on
• 22:28
  our board as well because they will bring a perspective to the table that we haven't
• 22:32
  thought of.
• 22:33
  And it's the same thing for younger people as well.
• 22:35
  You know, the government of Quebec has recently put in place legislation for Crown Corporation
• 22:41
  where you have to have one individual under the age of thirty five per a Crown Corporation
• 22:47
  board And we're also in Quebec the first ones to have, a law that requires parody, 50% of
• 22:54
  women on all our so like what you have hydro, Ontario or hydro 1, is our hydro Quebec?
• 23:01
  Well, we've had parity forever on that board on SCQ, our Liquors board, etcetera.
• 23:07
  So that, you know, what that demonstrates works on?
• 23:09
  Is that when you legislate you find the women.
• 23:12
  And when you don't legislate, you find excuses.
• 23:15
  So I've been lobbying for a while with, you know, Justin Trudeau and and and the, I went I
• 23:21
  did a, also, testimony at the a parliamentary commission, last June to share my research
• 23:29
  because I've been, you know, I've been traveling, pretty much everywhere over the past
• 23:35
  couple of years.
• 23:36
  And, luckily sponsored by Air Canada to do this, but I brought back, a lot of case studies
• 23:43
  from what I've seen in other countries and France, for instance, who had just like us,
• 23:49
  they were at 12% of women in 2010 at the women that at the time that I founded women in
• 23:54
  governance, Today, they're at 40%, and we are stuck under the 20% bar because they have the
• 24:01
  legislation.
• 24:02
  So with with when you're lobbying, right, like, obviously, this we know how long that process
• 24:07
  can be.
• 24:09
  Do you find that Canada is able to kind of benchmark themselves in reference to what they
• 24:14
  see globally?
• 24:15
  Like when you said you're, you know, you're in contact with, Justin Trudeau and stuff like
• 24:20
  that.
• 24:20
  How open are they, or is it, you know, like, it's like, it's kinda like the tagline with a
• 24:24
  lot of companies.
• 24:25
  Right?
• 24:25
  I would like parity give me the label, maybe kind of look like I fit in, and I'll kind of
• 24:31
  tow the line.
• 24:32
  Do you find that there's being there's an actual shift starting to happen because of
• 24:37
  obviously your organization or just some of the things that you're seeing globally?
• 24:41
  So there's definitely a shift in terms of the mindset and in terms of the desire to see more
• 24:47
  women.
• 24:49
  The discussion I had with Justin Trudeau on that very topic, he was very happy with the
• 24:53
  build C25 that requires the evaluation.
• 24:57
  The organizations have to, say, how many women they have, what targets they they they they
• 25:04
  they self sort of stuff impose their targets.
• 25:06
  Right?
• 25:07
  And what their results are.
• 25:09
  So what I was telling him is that that's not gonna be enough because there are no
• 25:14
  consequences.
• 25:16
  And it that same thing is what the, security's commission put in place, which is called comply
• 25:22
  or explain.
• 25:23
  So organizations will just explain.
• 25:26
  This is why we were not able to find the women, etcetera.
• 25:29
  We say you need to impose certain things, to help the movement because it's just not moving.
• 25:36
  If anything, we're almost regressing, it's it's insane.
• 25:40
  But, if there's openness, there's huge openness.
• 25:42
  I can tell you that when I did my my testimony, I was, at the National Assembly, I had both,
• 25:49
  conservative and liberal, deputies who were, were listening, and you know, we spent more
• 25:54
  than an hour and they were extremely receptive.
• 25:58
  They, had my speech translated and make sure that they were able to send it around.
• 26:04
  And they were huge openness.
• 26:06
  Now, concretely, did anything happen, not yet.
• 26:10
  I was invited actually by Justin Trudeau to speak at the, liberal party, congress in, April
• 26:17
  and Halifax.
• 26:19
  So I will say what I have to say again.
• 26:21
  So they're they're very kind to give me platforms because I've also spoken at the,
• 26:28
  women's, what do you call it?
• 26:30
  Commission, for the liberal party, a couple of years ago.
• 26:33
  So I, you know, I do get a lot of traction.
• 26:37
  I have the year of a lot of people, but we're really going to have to be more concrete and a
• 26:43
  gender balance cabinet is great, but what does that do for the corporate world?
• 26:47
  At this point, it hasn't trickled down.
• 26:50
  I also spoke funny enough at the National Assembly in Paris.
• 26:53
  So I was invited by French deputy in 2015 to share, you know, this situation here in Canada,
• 27:00
  and they also had invited a, Swedish woman.
• 27:03
  And, so France was sort of learning from Sweden and and listening to what was going on in in
• 27:09
  Canada and and realizing that they actually were ahead of the game, which is quite
• 27:14
  which is which is fantastic.
• 27:16
  So there's an openness, but as we we know with creating big changes or systems, It's gonna
• 27:21
  take a lot of, you know, small steps and and adding on, but it sounds like you you've been
• 27:26
  doing a lot.
• 27:27
  Now I'm a curious.
• 27:29
  Like, and because I'm sure everybody's curious that, about your interview with, Hillary
• 27:34
  Clinton.
• 27:35
  Yeah.
• 27:35
  And, you know, tell me what I mean, what an amazing experience for you, but just the
• 27:40
  presence and just and what that was like for you and kind of what what kind of the nuggets
• 27:45
  were for you when you were able to spend time with with her.
• 27:49
  So, first of all, I can tell you one thing is she's nothing like how media portrays her, you
• 27:55
  know, that whole distant woman who doesn't care about people that is not her at all.
• 28:00
  Of course, she had to put on a sort of a facade, you know, for all these years because
• 28:04
  women in politics are so criticized.
• 28:07
  They are so touched.
• 28:09
  And and then we end up with, you know, somebody like Donald comp in the White House, you know,
• 28:14
  it's sort of yeah.
• 28:16
  It's, I don't I I don't even know how to qualify, but just a sick of you in perspective,
• 28:21
  the first time I met her was in Toronto.
• 28:23
  I did 2 interviews with her.
• 28:24
  1 in Toronto and 1 in Montreal.
• 28:26
  And, in Toronto.
• 28:28
  I was backstage.
• 28:29
  I was waiting for her.
• 28:30
  I hadn't seen her spoken to her before the night up.
• 28:33
  I had spoken to her right arm for the past twenty some years and five, six people on her
• 28:40
  team, but not to herself directly.
• 28:43
  So I was, backstage.
• 28:45
  It was dark and, the wall was covered with secret services agent.
• 28:51
  And, all of a sudden, I see at the end of a corridor, a pretty tiny woman blonde walk you
• 28:59
  towards me.
• 29:00
  And so I I never realized that she was actually petite like I am, you know, I in my mind, you
• 29:05
  know, some of you admire like this are always under the impression they're tall and, you
• 29:10
  know, set to ask.
• 29:11
  And so she blocks towards me and my heart stops And she puts her hands on my shoulders.
• 29:18
  It looks at me in the eyes and says, I couldn't wait to meet you.
• 29:23
  Wow.
• 29:25
  So I said to her, you couldn't wait to meet me.
• 29:30
  So, you know, that was quite the ice working experience.
• 29:35
  She was very soft, very kind, very reassuring, you know, she said, I've read about you.
• 29:42
  I was very impressed.
• 29:44
  I am, you know, obviously trying to prove my profile, that I was gonna do this.
• 29:49
  And she said, that she was really, you know, looking forward to the time that we're gonna
• 29:54
  spend together on stage.
• 29:56
  And, we spent an hour together, and it was just fantastic.
• 30:02
  We really clicked.
• 30:04
  She was so acceptable.
• 30:04
  The crowd was I mean, there were almost six thousand people in the room.
• 30:12
  And they were cheering her on, and they were, I mean, the first one I started when I worked on
• 30:17
  stage for her to introduce her, I thought I was never going to be able to finish his sentence.
• 30:23
  Every time I said something, everybody was screaming.
• 30:27
  You know, the first thing I, you know, the first thing I thought is, you know, people
• 30:31
  people know me well in Quebec, but not in Toronto.
• 30:33
  And I thought they might say, you know, who women on stage.
• 30:37
  And, you know, I said, good evening.
• 30:39
  My name is Caroline Hoxy.
• 30:40
  I'm the president of women in governance.
• 30:43
  An organization for theft and equipment.
• 30:45
  They started screaming the minute I said for me that's an appointment.
• 30:50
  So, yeah, they put me at least right away where it felt very, very welcomed.
• 30:55
  And then I said, you know, a few words about Taylor Clinton, and I said, and who lost to,
• 31:01
  political newcomer, Donald Trump, and everybody was doing.
• 31:06
  It was a very fun crowd.
• 31:09
  I then should come on stage and it was, you know, obviously, a deep standing ovation people
• 31:14
  couldn't stop sharing and then and applauding.
• 31:17
  And so very amazing experience.
• 31:20
  Then, a month later, we did Montreal and, So that was my crowd and my family's role.
• 31:28
  And
• 31:29
  No threat.
• 31:30
  No pressure whatsoever.
• 31:33
  It was very different but since we had already done it.
• 31:36
  I guess it was even more, more comfortable, more adding.
• 31:44
  It was a little bit different in the sense that we were more agile than we were in Toronto, I
• 31:49
  guess.
• 31:50
  But, you know, my goal was to really highlight something that not everyone knew about her.
• 31:56
  And also, her message, and the reason why she wrote that book, what happened is really around
• 32:03
  prototyping people, not only, regarding the, you know, sexist men misogyny, and there's the
• 32:11
  the importance of having more women in politics so that we could get sexism out of politics but
• 32:17
  also everything had happened around depression intervention because she got blamed a lot, and
• 32:24
  she took the blame and she did recognize that she was disconnected with part of the
• 32:29
  population and she was so close to Allstate and all of these things.
• 32:33
  You know, she made the and then, but she really wanted population.
• 32:39
  German populations understand the risk to our democracy.
• 32:43
  And what happened?
• 32:44
  How the FBI do you think were double prompted?
• 32:47
  And I think it was essential.
• 32:51
  That, he wrote this book.
• 32:54
  I think it was very therapeutic for her, but also very important for the rest of us to
• 32:59
  better understand.
• 33:00
  So what was your most special moment, in interviewing her?
• 33:04
  What what does one pebble that you kind of thought, wow, this spot for me right now is was
• 33:10
  a one particular thing that she shared that really kind of, you know
• 33:15
  Well, she, you know, she made me laugh at one point when we were talking about, I asked her
• 33:18
  to share how she felt.
• 33:20
  When she went to the inauguration.
• 33:23
  And, so she shared, what she did before, which was hope that maybe others weren't going where
• 33:29
  so they were calling all the former presidents, but everybody was going since she thought she
• 33:33
  had to go there and she talking about the glances that she was exchanging with Michelle
• 33:39
  Obama thinking, you know, is he for real and, you know, and that she shared that at the end,
• 33:47
  when they were leaving, George W Bush said out loud, you know, in texts and blackness, That
• 33:54
  was some weird shit.
• 33:55
  So that was, you know, that was just the
• 34:01
  authentic part to what it is to hold a role like that?
• 34:04
  Exactly.
• 34:05
  So, you know, woman behind the candidate?
• 34:08
  There is, obviously.
• 34:09
  And and, you know, and to be able to really have done the things that she's done.
• 34:13
  And I've not read her book, but I I would love to pick up a copy and and, you know, read about
• 34:19
  her entire experience.
• 34:20
  Now you you don't
• 34:23
  you can also download the Audible, by the way.
• 34:25
  I read the book.
• 34:25
  I downloaded the Audible.
• 34:26
  It's on both.
• 34:28
  And I just got
• 34:29
  driving the car at Hillary Clinton's talking to you.
• 34:31
  Okay.
• 34:32
  Awesome.
• 34:32
  I'll do that.
• 34:33
  So tell me, you know, you you know, you have a daughter.
• 34:36
  You, you know, you speak
• 34:38
  to her now.
• 34:39
  And she's a lawyer now.
• 34:40
  Wow.
• 34:41
  So,
• 34:41
  you know, when you're when you speak to women, that are coming up, and, you know, gone are the
• 34:46
  days where we tell our little girls, you know, to be nice and cross her legs.
• 34:49
  And we tell them to go out there in the world, and we tell them all these things.
• 34:53
  What kind of words of wisdom do you have for young women or young little girls coming up
• 34:58
  that's that you think would is important for them to reflect on as they get out there and
• 35:02
  kind of face the world?
• 35:04
  Well, I think that this generation is much more fortunate than we are because they've seen sort
• 35:11
  of several revolutions of of women saying, you know, in us.
• 35:17
  I don't think that we are, well, you know what?
• 35:22
  Parents still have a major role I think what we need to stop doing is telling girls that they
• 35:27
  need to be pretty and boys that they need to be strong.
• 35:30
  So I've taught my daughter that she needs to be strong.
• 35:33
  I also have a son.
• 35:34
  And he, you know, obviously, is a feminist that follows everything that we do and very involved
• 35:40
  with limiting governance.
• 35:41
  But, you know, my daughter became a lawyer at age twenty two.
• 35:44
  So there's one.
• 35:47
  She, has very quickly understood that it's a world where if you don't take your place,
• 35:53
  nobody is going to open the door for you, you know, and she has learned from my own
• 35:58
  experience that if they don't open the door, you go through the window, you go through the
• 36:02
  fire, the chimney, you find a way that you get in there.
• 36:06
  And she's very much like me.
• 36:07
  And the other thing is I've been heavily involved in the community.
• 36:12
  Since always.
• 36:13
  And my children got involved very young.
• 36:16
  I mean, at age eleven, they were already with me at, no.
• 36:19
  I was, spokesperson for the Salvation Army for 5 years.
• 36:22
  My kids were there for the missing children's network.
• 36:25
  My kids were there.
• 36:27
  For the Cancer Society, kids were there.
• 36:30
  And now they're involved, that they've been for the past 5 years, involved with a definite
• 36:35
  ball, the 2 of them, and, which is for the Canadian Cancer Society.
• 36:40
  And they've realized to what level it served them to be well in, you know, well networked
• 36:46
  because they both pulled, you know, she works at a law firm, he works at the World Bank, you
• 36:51
  know, at a very young age when some of their friends were struggling or, you know, working
• 36:55
  at, Dairy Queen or Dunkin' Donut, they were already, working in major organizations, and
• 37:02
  that doesn't happen just because you have a good CV.
• 37:06
  That also happens because you're well network, you're well intentioned.
• 37:10
  People see you, come across as someone who does more than, you know, just you go, above the
• 37:16
  call of duty.
• 37:17
  You know, like, I've worked in career management for decades.
• 37:20
  You know, we look at see these.
• 37:23
  What else do you do?
• 37:25
  You know?
• 37:25
  You have an NDA.
• 37:26
  Oh, what?
• 37:26
  Tons of people have an NDA.
• 37:28
  You've worked at a major accounting firm.
• 37:30
  So what?
• 37:31
  There's people coming out of there.
• 37:32
  But what should you done?
• 37:33
  Who are you?
• 37:34
  And if you have either created a movement even better, or at least participated in a very
• 37:41
  active way and and demonstrated that you believe in your role as a corporate citizen.
• 37:48
  I think that says a lot.
• 37:50
  I've also, at that time, coached lawyers at a major law firm, who were, let's call them
• 37:56
  junior partners.
• 37:57
  And, we're told that you will never become an equity partner if you're not involved in the
• 38:02
  community because that goes against our values.
• 38:04
  So if you want to be an equity partner, you really speak in the name of the firm, you're
• 38:10
  going to have to get involved.
• 38:11
  And some of the discussions I had were quite striking where the person would say, well, what
• 38:15
  more that do they want from me?
• 38:17
  You know, I work so hard.
• 38:18
  I don't have time.
• 38:19
  I can't be everywhere.
• 38:21
  I can't do everything.
• 38:22
  Well, nobody can do everything that everybody can do something.
• 38:26
  And those excuses of I don't have time.
• 38:28
  I don't buy them.
• 38:29
  Listen.
• 38:29
  I'm a single mother.
• 38:30
  I raised my token on my own.
• 38:33
  Their father doesn't even live in the country.
• 38:35
  He left the country when they were 13 15 at a very difficult time.
• 38:39
  And I've really decided that I was going to keep, you know, the boards I was sitting on,
• 38:46
  skip, still do all that I'm doing, and get them more involved.
• 38:50
  So we know, jokingly, my son was telling, I mean, I usually report the minister of, Patrick
• 38:56
  Juan.
• 38:57
  I'm like, I have to say that, I mean, it will take quite a minute.
• 38:59
  It's all better in French.
• 39:00
  Anyway, whatever it means in English.
• 39:02
  And you were selling her, you know, when I, because he all often they often get asked, you
• 39:09
  know, when do you see your mom?
• 39:11
  And, well, sometimes we need to go to her events to be able to see her.
• 39:15
  And you know what?
• 39:17
  I think it makes her more resilient.
• 39:19
  More independent autonomous children.
• 39:22
  And, you know, those women who think that, they're, feel too guilty because the kids have
• 39:28
  to make their own dinner.
• 39:30
  I think that they need to think that think twice.
• 39:33
  Right.
• 39:33
  Because you're you're already setting a stage.
• 39:35
  And then, like, likewise, like, with you, I've been on my own for a bit too.
• 39:38
  And, you know, after we left our corporates, you you think you left before I did.
• 39:42
  But, really, and then you're on you're kinda on your own and kinda like not much, you know, and
• 39:47
  it's really about the social welfare that you're you're demonstrating by by your actions
• 39:52
  when you go out and you sit on these boards or you speak at events or you, you know, help
• 39:56
  someone.
• 39:56
  They're, they're constantly watching you and, and modeling what kind of things that they see.
• 40:02
  From the ongoing basis.
• 40:04
  And, and becoming like you said, good, good citizens just overall based on wherever they
• 40:09
  go.
• 40:10
  And my sixteen year old will often say that, you know, that he can see how I'm doing these
• 40:14
  things and how, how would how, you know, helping people how that makes a difference, you
• 40:19
  know, because Obviously, he's a bit younger than your guys, but they're they're very, very
• 40:23
  impressionable.
• 40:24
  So, Caroline, I want to know that if there's, there's women out there, that are interested in
• 40:29
  getting a hold of, your organization, you know, or any other elements they may just wanna reach
• 40:36
  out and and learn more even if they're kind of still coming up in the ranks, where where can
• 40:42
  they get a hold, of the other.
• 40:45
  Our website, women in governance.org.
• 40:48
  We're also very active on social media, but Actually, we need to change the name because
• 40:54
  we're under the French name only on social media.
• 40:56
  We're going to add the English name.
• 40:59
  It's like if you go on the website on women and governance dot org, you will see, our social
• 41:06
  media.
• 41:07
  It's easy to access, and we do share in both languages.
• 41:10
  We actually share a ton of English articles, on a daily basis.
• 41:14
  And there's close to fifty thousand people on the different, you know, between LinkedIn,
• 41:19
  between Twitter, between Instagram, and and Facebook, there's a page and there's a group.
• 41:24
  There's a lot of discussions that go on there every day and a lot of men also participate in
• 41:29
  the conversation.
• 41:30
  It's very rich.
• 41:31
  Fantastic.
• 41:31
  And I've been reading a fair amount of it because I can click on the translation, which
• 41:35
  has been fantastic.
• 41:36
  So thank you.
• 41:37
  Thank you so much for taking the time.
• 41:40
  Sent her invitation.
• 41:41
  You know, authenticity and voice is such a key thing.
• 41:43
  And being women in the world is important, but like you said, you know, we can't do this
• 41:48
  alone.
• 41:48
  We need to be able to have good men along the way that will assist us to bring through these
• 41:54
  barriers and it's, you know, we're making inroads by any kind of assistance is necessary.
• 41:59
  So I want to thank everybody for tuning in again, to authentic, living with Roxanne.
• 42:05
  If you're wanting information from Carolyn, please reach out.
• 42:08
  And if you're needing to, connect with me about any of this information, you can reach me at
• 42:14
  roxanderautch.com.
• 42:17
  Okay.
• 42:18
  Take care.
• 42:18
  We're good.
• 42:36
  Joined authentic living with Roxanne.
• 42:39
  Every Thursday 11 am Eastern on Global Voice Radio.