Latest / The Dr. Sarah Hensley Show / Episode 32, Season 2: The Dismissive Avoidant Woman

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Episode 32, Season 2: The Dismissive Avoidant Woman · The Dr. Sarah Hensley Show

0:11
Speaker 1: Welcome to the lovedog podcast. I'm your co host, Reina
0:15
Speaker 1: Butcher here with our host, doctor Sarah Hensley, the owner,
0:18
Speaker 1: founder and CEO, and my bff of the love Doc
0:22
Speaker 1: relationship coaching services. I just wanted to change it up, guys,
0:25
Speaker 1: throw that in there. You can find her at the
0:27
Speaker 1: lovedoc dot com or on any social media handle at
0:31
Speaker 1: doctor Sarah Hinsley.
0:32
Speaker 2: Well, you're my best friend too, I know, BFFs.
0:35
Speaker 1: We're going on eight years BFFs.
0:38
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's been a really good journey.
0:40
Speaker 1: It has been a cool journey. Let's talk about the
0:45
Speaker 1: dismissive avoidant woman.
0:47
Speaker 2: So we got a comment that when we talk about
0:50
Speaker 2: dismissive avoidance, we only talk about men. The reason is
0:53
Speaker 2: because almost all of them are men. There is a
0:56
Speaker 2: very small portion of dismissive avoidant women. And the reason
1:00
Speaker 2: that I don't talk about them very much is because
1:02
Speaker 2: attachment style collapses across gender. That means that there's not
1:09
Speaker 2: a lot of gender correlates with attachment or attachment correlates
1:15
Speaker 2: with gender, however you want to word it. So this
1:18
Speaker 2: is going to be a short episode because there's only
1:21
Speaker 2: really a few differences between a dismissive avoidant woman and
1:24
Speaker 2: a dismissive avoidant man in terms of how they act.
1:29
Speaker 2: So I'm sorry to the reviewer that things that we
1:33
Speaker 2: don't represent women in this category. We are now here.
1:36
Speaker 1: We are, We're satisfied.
1:37
Speaker 2: But the reason that I have and is because there's
1:39
Speaker 2: just not that much material. But what there is I
1:41
Speaker 2: want to talk about today. Sure, one of the biggest
1:45
Speaker 2: differences I see between dismissive avoidant men and dismissive avoidant
1:49
Speaker 2: women is that dismissive avoidant women use their kids as
1:53
Speaker 2: their dissociation mechanism. So where dismissive avoidant men are more
1:59
Speaker 2: likely to be a work of hoolick, dismissive avoidant women
2:02
Speaker 2: are more likely to be obsessed with their children and
2:05
Speaker 2: make their children the reason why they can't have intimacy
2:08
Speaker 2: with their spouse. So that's the big one, and that
2:12
Speaker 2: probably obviously comes from, you know, the nurturing desire of
2:16
Speaker 2: a mother to you know, raise kids and be more
2:19
Speaker 2: involved in their kids' lives. Not that today dads aren't
2:22
Speaker 2: involved with their kids' lives. It's just we know, culturally,
2:25
Speaker 2: historically we have more stay at home moms, and we
2:27
Speaker 2: do stay at home dads. Even dismissive, avoidant women who
2:31
Speaker 2: are very career oriented often hyperfixate on kids to an
2:38
Speaker 2: unhealthy amount. If I can be frank, and then they
2:44
Speaker 2: often turn around and say, well, I can't give you
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Speaker 2: intimacy because look how busy I am with the kids.
2:49
Speaker 2: And I've said it once, I'll say it again. Your
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Speaker 2: spouse comes before your children. That's godly order. Why because
2:57
Speaker 2: if your marriage falls apart, it deeply affects your children.
3:01
Speaker 2: And so a strong marriage is the most protective factor
3:03
Speaker 2: for your children to grow up secure and healthy. So
3:06
Speaker 2: a lot of people get it wrong when they say, well,
3:08
Speaker 2: I'll never prioritize my spouse above my kids. Nobody's saying
3:11
Speaker 2: don't feed your kids, don't clothe your kids, don't emotionally
3:14
Speaker 2: attune to your kids. But what we're saying is it's
3:17
Speaker 2: okay to say nope, kids, nine o'clock, that's your bedtime.
3:19
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's okay to say nope, you're not climbing in
3:21
Speaker 1: the bed with mom and dad tonight.
3:22
Speaker 2: No you're not. You're going to be in your own bed,
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Speaker 2: and I will soothe you and love you and hug
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Speaker 2: you and kiss you, and then you are going to
3:29
Speaker 2: go to sleep in your own bed. Of course, I'm
3:33
Speaker 2: not talking about infant toddler. I'm talking about your five, six, seven,
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Speaker 2: eight year old child who still wants to get in
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Speaker 2: your bed at some point. Yes, we love attachment parenting.
3:44
Speaker 2: I'm a fan of co sleeping for sure, But there
3:48
Speaker 2: comes a point where it's time to cut it off
3:51
Speaker 2: because you need to start having sex with your spouse again. Yeah,
3:54
Speaker 2: or whatever, it looks like. That's the second thing I
3:58
Speaker 2: want to talk about. Oh my gosh, my stomach crowd
4:00
Speaker 2: so much. I hope that didn't show up on the mic.
4:02
Speaker 2: If you guys just heard that, I apologize. It was
4:04
Speaker 2: like I didn't hear it. Okay, well, if you didn't
4:06
Speaker 2: hear it, maybe, but the mic is close. I don't know.
4:09
Speaker 2: It was just a loud raar AnyWho. Dismissive avoidant women
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Speaker 2: are much more likely to shut down sexually than dismissive
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Speaker 2: avoidant men. In fact, of all of the attachment styles
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Speaker 2: that do eventually sexually shut down, the female fearful avoidant
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Speaker 2: and the female dismissive avoidant, dismissive avoidant shutting down more
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Speaker 2: than the fearful around sex is what I see in
4:35
Speaker 2: my practice because the dismissive avoidant woman defies everything society
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Speaker 2: says about what a woman wants. What she wants is
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Speaker 2: nothing about what society says women want. And that's why
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Speaker 2: I think in my one on one practice that is
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Speaker 2: no longer existing to new clients. The group is though. Anyhow,
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Speaker 2: the men that I see are often very powerful, very
5:05
Speaker 2: successful men who have been successful in every area of
5:11
Speaker 2: life except for their marriage, and they cannot figure out why.
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Speaker 2: And then when they hear my stuff on social media
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Speaker 2: about dismissive avoidance, there's like this massive light bulb that
5:26
Speaker 2: just goes off.
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Speaker 1: The messages that I've seen from men who are partners
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Speaker 1: of dismissive avoidant women, it's always the same message, always,
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Speaker 1: which is, I can't figure my wife out. I can't
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Speaker 1: figure it out. I cannot figure her out.
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Speaker 2: I can't I've done everything. I have gotten flowers, I
5:47
Speaker 2: have book romantic trips, I have confessed my love I
5:51
Speaker 2: have and I'm like, those are all the things that
5:53
Speaker 2: are going to give her the ick man. Okay, I
5:56
Speaker 2: mean maybe not booking the trip. But the more or
6:00
Speaker 2: are they push for intimacy, the more distant they become,
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Speaker 2: because that is the da blueprint. They value their autonomy
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Speaker 2: and their space. They suppress their emotions, they are sensitive
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Speaker 2: to criticism, they are conflict avoidant, and so they become
6:16
Speaker 2: the ones that massively drop into their feminine energy of
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Speaker 2: please love me, please, you know, they are the they
6:23
Speaker 2: become more of like this sort of softer, more passive,
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Speaker 2: more fearful. Not to say that that's feminine energy, that's that's.
6:33
Speaker 1: Not but it's toxic feminine.
6:35
Speaker 2: It's toxic femin Yes, that's toxic feminine energy. Yeah, where
6:39
Speaker 2: they they feel like a sucker.
6:40
Speaker 1: Yeah.
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Speaker 2: I had a guy look at me yesterday and he's like,
6:43
Speaker 2: I said, do you know what you are? He said,
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Speaker 2: you're a sucker. And coaching is direct people, it's direct.
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Speaker 2: It's not meant to be therapy. We're not here to
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Speaker 2: lie to you or caudal you. No, I'm here to
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Speaker 2: tell you the blunt truth in this relationship. You are
7:01
Speaker 2: a sucker. He is caring for the kids, He is
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Speaker 2: working full time, he is at his wife's beck and call,
7:11
Speaker 2: he is managing the finances, he is packing the lunches fixed,
7:17
Speaker 2: and he's doing it all. And this is a case
7:20
Speaker 2: where yes, the wife is involved with children, but she
7:25
Speaker 2: also has a very high power career, so he's kind
7:28
Speaker 2: of put his career on the back burner and she's
7:30
Speaker 2: kind of the breadwinner. And he gets I mean, according
7:35
Speaker 2: to him, right, zero intimacy. And I see this over
7:40
Speaker 2: and over and over and over and over and over
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Speaker 2: and over again and have four years. I'm talking not
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Speaker 2: a handhold, not a hug, not a kiss, good night,
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Speaker 2: not a hey babe, how's your day? And I love you,
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Speaker 2: nah thing. You are being starved of attention. And men
8:05
Speaker 2: need affection and attention too, every human does, and they're blue.
8:10
Speaker 2: They just become so, and dismissive avoidant men do too,
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Speaker 2: wrapped up in their blueprint that they don't see it.
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Speaker 2: And then whereas dismissive avoidant men though, tend to stay
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Speaker 2: more sexually open because that is a way that they
8:26
Speaker 2: because men can kind of better separate emotions and sex
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Speaker 2: where women can't. Those parts of our brain are more
8:32
Speaker 2: tied together, if you will. So when they shut down
8:35
Speaker 2: their emotions, that's when they shut down their sexuality. Because
8:38
Speaker 2: for women, emotions and sexuality are really paired together, and
8:41
Speaker 2: so when they're suppressing their emotions, they then their sex
8:44
Speaker 2: drive gets suppressed as well. Makes sense, and in the
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Speaker 2: fearful avoidant woman, they feel so betrayed and so misunderstood
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Speaker 2: that they all shut down sexually. But a dismissive avoidant
8:55
Speaker 2: woman usually feels so criticized. And you have to remember,
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Speaker 2: a dismissive avoidance takes any emotionality, Any ask for a
9:03
Speaker 2: need is criticism, and so they feel like I can't
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Speaker 2: win for losing because I ask for what I need.
9:11
Speaker 2: I try to say it gently, I try to say
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Speaker 2: it lovingly. I try to just plan it. I try
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Speaker 2: to just try to take everything off her plate, try
9:19
Speaker 2: to take everything off. That's exactly what they tell me.
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Speaker 2: I try to take everything off her plate because that's
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Speaker 2: what we're told. We're told that women have too much
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Speaker 2: on their plate, they have too much emotional labor, and
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Speaker 2: that's why they're so shut down. The dismissive avoidant woman
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Speaker 2: is going to be shut down whether she has emotional
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Speaker 2: like she has that labor or not. It's her blueprint
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Speaker 2: to be shut down. And then they're like still getting
9:42
Speaker 2: nothing back, and they're just pulling their hair out because
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Speaker 2: all of what society says women want about romance and
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Speaker 2: affection and emotions, they just start giving more of that,
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Speaker 2: and then the dismissive avoidant woman gets more turned off, like, uh,
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Speaker 2: do we have to have an another emotional conversation?
10:01
Speaker 3: Ugh, like thanks for the gift, safe gift and yeah yeah,
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Speaker 3: Like it's just it's it's obligation and they feel like
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Speaker 3: I'm a burden to my wife to be honest with you.
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Speaker 2: They feel like you're a burden.
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Speaker 1: And I could see where this would lead to. And
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Speaker 1: this isn't just for females, but we've talked about this before.
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Speaker 1: Why the DA is the most likely to cheat?
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Speaker 2: Yeah, oh yeah, yeah, because it's a way for them
10:27
Speaker 2: to finally like step away from their wounding that's being
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Speaker 2: activated by high stakes partner and to give it to
10:34
Speaker 2: low stakes partner where they can be a little bit
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Speaker 2: more transparent, vulnerable, oh been sexual, Like it reignites all
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Speaker 2: of that in them where it's shut down with high
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Speaker 2: stakes partner because high stakes partner, just in the nature
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Speaker 2: of being high stakes and committed, is pushing on their
10:48
Speaker 2: wounding around commitment, expectation, vulnerability, conflict, et cetera.
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Speaker 1: And they don't see it. All they see is ugh.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, all they see is And we've also been accused
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Speaker 2: of villainizing the dismissive avoidant. I did a whole episode
11:00
Speaker 2: on the pain that they have. They have terrible, terrible
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Speaker 2: pain of inner defectiveness and shame. So I'm not villainizing anybody.
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Speaker 2: It's coming from deep neglect, trauma from their childhood that
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Speaker 2: they don't understand. And even if they do start to
11:14
Speaker 2: understand it, they have no capacity to start the change
11:16
Speaker 2: process without somebody really guiding them most of the time.
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Speaker 2: And then they don't do well in therapy because therapy
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Speaker 2: triggers they're vulnerability wounds, and criticism triggers their defectiveness wounds.
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Speaker 2: And when you sit in therapy and your spouse is
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Speaker 2: criticizing you, or you're asked to be vulnerable on the
11:31
Speaker 2: spot and you don't have the emotional resources to access
11:34
Speaker 2: your inner world, you just shut down. And so then
11:40
Speaker 2: they get even more pessimistic. Well, if therapy didn't work,
11:42
Speaker 2: then you know, we're hopeless, and they really convince themselves
11:45
Speaker 2: that they're just not compatible with their partner anymore. And
11:49
Speaker 2: then their husbands are devastated because they're like, man, I'm
11:51
Speaker 2: not like these jackasses that you hear about that are
11:54
Speaker 2: running around on their wives or that are not doing
11:57
Speaker 2: the dishes or caring for the kids. I'm you know,
12:00
Speaker 2: I'm fixing kids breakfast, I'm packing lunches, I'm cleaning the house,
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Speaker 2: I'm working my butt off, and my wife still doesn't
12:07
Speaker 2: like me.
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Speaker 1: Ough breaks my heart, of course, Yeah, it's heartbreaking.
12:12
Speaker 2: Is it's heartbreaking. All insecure patterns are heartbreaking.
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Speaker 1: They are, and so.
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Speaker 2: The dismissive avoidant woman though the harshness because men need respect.
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Speaker 2: This is a real gender difference. Men need respect, they
12:28
Speaker 2: need to be revered, they need to be honored, and
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Speaker 2: a dismissive avoidant can dish out some criticism, but they
12:35
Speaker 2: can't take any of it, so they and a lot
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Speaker 2: of what happens during deactivation is flaw finding. It's the
12:44
Speaker 2: way that the conscious mind starts to rationalize their distance.
12:49
Speaker 2: I don't like this about you, I don't like that
12:50
Speaker 2: about you, don't like this about you. And I do
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Speaker 2: think the females are more likely to voice the criticism
12:55
Speaker 2: than the dismissive avoidant men. So then here we have
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Speaker 2: someone who's critical yet completely shut down and withdrawn, and
13:03
Speaker 2: we have a husband that's working over time to please her,
13:07
Speaker 2: to try to find a way to get through, to
13:09
Speaker 2: try to find a way to connect, and it's sort
13:11
Speaker 2: of like they're just being starved. And I think about
13:15
Speaker 2: Taylor Swift's open lighte song, which my Spotify said was
13:18
Speaker 2: my number one listener song in twenty twenty. Spotify gave
13:21
Speaker 2: you your age yet, Yes, this is hilarious. Side note,
13:26
Speaker 2: guess what my age was?
13:27
Speaker 1: Twenty six?
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Speaker 2: It was eighteen. Guess what Donald's was?
13:33
Speaker 1: Seventy four?
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Speaker 2: Sixty nine, So a seventy year old music taste with
13:39
Speaker 2: an eighteen j.
13:40
Speaker 1: Was seventy four. Spotify age was Seventy's always were.
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Speaker 2: That is so funny, so funny, but there's a line
13:49
Speaker 2: in that song says, you know you finally left the table,
13:54
Speaker 2: Like what a simple concept. You're starving till you're not,
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Speaker 2: And it's like that is what people feel when they
14:02
Speaker 2: leave a DA. I know that I went from a
14:04
Speaker 2: dismissive avoidant to a securely attached man, and I was
14:07
Speaker 2: starving until I wasn't. I can't even say, And sometimes
14:12
Speaker 2: I wonder, like, does he know about what I do now? Today?
14:17
Speaker 2: I don't I care. I don't know.
14:19
Speaker 1: That's so weird that you said that, because I was
14:20
Speaker 1: just thinking about him today for whatever reason. And I'm
14:22
Speaker 1: like I wonder like if he's obviously he's had to
14:25
Speaker 1: have watched some of your content and like seen some
14:28
Speaker 1: things like that you've said and like referenced to him.
14:30
Speaker 1: There's no way.
14:31
Speaker 2: I mean, I would never say his name.
14:32
Speaker 1: No, no, And he's a good guy. He's a great guy.
14:35
Speaker 2: But it's a good person. Yeah, but no hate. Yeah,
14:37
Speaker 2: it's but he couldn't have a relationship to save his life.
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Speaker 1: Oh and you were starved because I remember even when
14:43
Speaker 1: I met Josh and I, you know, we were in
14:46
Speaker 1: our love bubble there for like the first two months,
14:48
Speaker 1: and you were like I want that, I want that
14:50
Speaker 1: so bad, and like you would finally let him go. Fine,
14:55
Speaker 1: but then that was you met you met Donald shortly
14:57
Speaker 1: after that. No, yeah, I met Josh.
15:01
Speaker 2: Before I met I did, da do? Deny broke up
15:07
Speaker 2: for good in December, and Donald and I met late
15:13
Speaker 2: in the.
15:13
Speaker 1: Summer twenty twenty two, one, twenty twenty one. So yeah,
15:18
Speaker 1: I met Josh February twenty twenty one.
15:20
Speaker 2: Yeah.
15:21
Speaker 1: So so I remember, like when I was with Josh,
15:24
Speaker 1: like those first couple of months. Yeah, you hadn't met
15:27
Speaker 1: Donald yet because you met him in the summer.
15:29
Speaker 2: But da do Deny. I were on Round three and
15:32
Speaker 2: we had been broke up, and I had been in
15:34
Speaker 2: a trying to start my healing journey before that, and
15:39
Speaker 2: when I started becoming secure in round three, that's when
15:43
Speaker 2: I it only took two weeks. There was only two
15:45
Speaker 2: weeks in round three, so we can't really count that.
15:47
Speaker 1: Yeah, it doesn't really count.
15:48
Speaker 2: Yeah it doesn't really.
15:49
Speaker 1: I do remember because you were.
15:51
Speaker 2: Like August, so really from August to August, yeah, you
15:54
Speaker 2: were like, no, I was single, but there was the
15:57
Speaker 2: two week maybe now that I feel like I'm getting
16:00
Speaker 2: a little.
16:00
Speaker 1: Bit more honestly, you were single the whole time you
16:02
Speaker 1: were with the DA Yeah, I.
16:03
Speaker 2: Was single the whole freaking time. We saw each other
16:06
Speaker 2: once a week.
16:07
Speaker 1: It was a real relationship.
16:08
Speaker 2: It wasn't a real relationship. I really are you know
16:11
Speaker 2: what blew my mind was in Round three. He was
16:17
Speaker 2: like he told me something that he was actually a
16:19
Speaker 2: little bit vulnerable, which is what I was like, wait
16:21
Speaker 2: a second, hold on a second. We had like a
16:23
Speaker 2: vulnerable conversation and he was like, I'll do whatever it
16:26
Speaker 2: takes to get this back, and he had never said
16:30
Speaker 2: anything like that to me before, and he was like,
16:33
Speaker 2: it's just we were so close, and I was thinking
16:36
Speaker 2: to myself, close, we're barely friends. And so it really
16:42
Speaker 2: is interesting that their blueprint of what a relationship is
16:45
Speaker 2: is so vastly different.
16:46
Speaker 1: From normal skewed.
16:48
Speaker 2: It's so skewed. It's so they call those a schema.
16:53
Speaker 2: Is that, Yeah, it's a schema. A schema is just
16:56
Speaker 2: like a picture of what something looks like that includes
16:59
Speaker 2: kind of like in order of operations of like what
17:01
Speaker 2: happens in their mind their mind. Well, a schema is
17:04
Speaker 2: like there can be a schema for a lot of things,
17:07
Speaker 2: Like what's the schema for riding a bike? Well, you
17:09
Speaker 2: put your leg over, you sit on the seat, grab
17:11
Speaker 2: the handlebarsh put your foot on, you peddle forward. Right
17:14
Speaker 2: Like there, that's a schema. Okay, So it's like, what
17:17
Speaker 2: is the schema of a relationship? While you you talk
17:19
Speaker 2: and then you date, and then you get more serious,
17:21
Speaker 2: and then maybe you move in together and you do
17:23
Speaker 2: activities together and you do this together. Their schema of
17:26
Speaker 2: relationships is so neglectful.
17:27
Speaker 1: Right it stops it like I see you once a week.
17:30
Speaker 2: It's not exactly you have no idea the amount of
17:34
Speaker 2: people I talk to who are in a relationship that
17:37
Speaker 2: resembles nothing of what a relationship should be.
17:39
Speaker 1: And they are they're married, and they're married.
17:42
Speaker 2: Yeah, they're like, I'm in a situationship with my spouse.
17:44
Speaker 2: I don't even know if my spouse likes me. If
17:47
Speaker 2: I had married that dude, Oh gosh, you wouldn't be
17:52
Speaker 2: here right now. I probably wouldn't probably wouldn't exist, No, God,
17:56
Speaker 2: no anything.
17:58
Speaker 1: He deserves some props.
18:00
Speaker 2: Oh, this whole thing is because my final collapse really
18:03
Speaker 2: had because I had done some work, but then after
18:06
Speaker 2: it was my mom getting cancer, Jared dying. The third
18:15
Speaker 2: round of him going could put.
18:18
Speaker 1: Our friendship kind of fallen apart.
18:20
Speaker 2: Our friendship kind of fell apart. My dog had died
18:24
Speaker 2: a little bit before that, but it was kind of
18:26
Speaker 2: all like in this little time frame.
18:30
Speaker 1: And was like, yeah, I'm out too.
18:32
Speaker 2: Yeah.
18:33
Speaker 1: Well then he came back.
18:36
Speaker 2: Yeah, then he came back. And then I don't even
18:39
Speaker 2: know who. I think I was the one that I
18:40
Speaker 2: don't know who finally ended it. I think it was
18:42
Speaker 2: just more of AiZ. It was more of a We
18:45
Speaker 2: had another argument and he ghosted me, and I was
18:49
Speaker 2: just like done, done, you did it again? Did it again?
18:54
Speaker 1: If you claimed you didn't want to.
18:56
Speaker 2: After you claimed you were never going to ghost me again,
18:59
Speaker 2: and then you ghost me for two weeks. Remember that
19:02
Speaker 2: when I was like, should I take our relationship off
19:04
Speaker 2: of Facebook? And I'm like, yes, it's not really okay,
19:09
Speaker 2: it's not even it's not even a friendship.
19:12
Speaker 1: I probably wasn't that blunt. I probably wanted to tell
19:15
Speaker 1: you where yeah, okay were.
19:17
Speaker 2: I was just that hard headed because I was just
19:20
Speaker 2: desperate to be loved, and so that blew my mind
19:23
Speaker 2: when he was like we were so close, and I
19:26
Speaker 2: was sitting there like with the strangers look on my face,
19:29
Speaker 2: like what do you define as close? And then I
19:32
Speaker 2: think about how close Donald and I are, like.
19:35
Speaker 1: Like, there's no comparison, there's no comparison.
19:37
Speaker 2: I sleep next to him, We sleep touching, yeah, every night,
19:40
Speaker 2: Like I have to be touching him to fall asleep, Like.
19:42
Speaker 1: Josh and I would climb into each other's buttles if
19:44
Speaker 1: we could.
19:45
Speaker 3: Same.
19:45
Speaker 2: Same, same, but not saying that. But we also have
19:49
Speaker 2: our own independent lives. I mean I don't have much
19:51
Speaker 2: of an independent life because of my kids. But she's like, wait,
19:59
Speaker 2: that was diarrhea. See no, but dog and I have
20:02
Speaker 2: said that before and like there are some days where
20:04
Speaker 2: I'm just like I just want to crawl up your buttthle.
20:06
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm like, I want to climb in your skin.
20:09
Speaker 1: I want to.
20:12
Speaker 2: But we also, you are the most independent woman I know.
20:16
Speaker 2: You and Josh are both super independent. It's so funny.
20:19
Speaker 2: Raina sent me this video guys that was like this
20:22
Speaker 2: woman that was like dancing in this doorway and she's
20:25
Speaker 2: like rubbing up against the door. She's like the feeling
20:29
Speaker 2: I get when my husband leaves the house. I mean,
20:31
Speaker 2: I love my husband and I want to be with
20:33
Speaker 2: my husband, but also the feeling I get when I'm alone,
20:36
Speaker 2: and she's just like dancing and moving around Sacre and
20:39
Speaker 2: Raina is just like and I was like, you know,
20:40
Speaker 2: I haven't had a lone time in like three years.
20:42
Speaker 1: And I'm like, I would literally scream into a pillow
20:45
Speaker 1: every day.
20:46
Speaker 2: It's just because my life doesn't allow it, because I
20:48
Speaker 2: take care of my mom, I take care of you know,
20:51
Speaker 2: with the four kids, the dogs, my husbands, and then
20:54
Speaker 2: what little time I do my alone time is working.
20:57
Speaker 2: But then I'm not alone because I'm never alone when
21:00
Speaker 2: I work. My work is coaching or doing this, or
21:03
Speaker 2: maybe creating content. But like when I get to go
21:05
Speaker 2: to Target by myself, oh honey. But then I'm watching
21:08
Speaker 2: the clock, like, dang it. Donald's at home with these
21:10
Speaker 2: four kids and these two dogs, and I'm just like,
21:13
Speaker 2: it's stressful, guys, And I'm we're partners right about, and
21:18
Speaker 2: he would let me. He would give me a whole
21:20
Speaker 2: week if I wanted a whole week. It's not a
21:22
Speaker 2: matter of he wouldn't let me. It's a matter of
21:24
Speaker 2: I don't want to put that on him.
21:26
Speaker 1: Sure, So.
21:28
Speaker 2: Back to dismissive avoidant women. They take a lot of
21:32
Speaker 2: alone time and a lot of independent time, and in
21:37
Speaker 2: an unhealthy way because we're looking for interdependence, interdependence, and
21:43
Speaker 2: then these DA or these spouses of DA women are
21:48
Speaker 2: just so starving and alone and cold and speaking of
21:51
Speaker 2: being cold, Cozy Earth as a sponsor of our podcast,
21:55
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21:58
Speaker 2: I want to thank them specifically for their bubble cuttle blanket,
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22:04
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22:08
Speaker 2: a full weighted blanket's a little bit too much for me,
22:10
Speaker 2: but just the tiny bit of weight that this blanket gives.
22:13
Speaker 2: It is just so soothing to the nervous system. And
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Speaker 2: my brother that is what they were getting for Christmas
22:36
Speaker 2: and to tell me the color. Yeah, because once you
22:38
Speaker 2: go Cozy Earth, you can't go back. So Raina tell
22:40
Speaker 2: everybody where they can find Cozy Year.
22:42
Speaker 1: And go to cozyearth dot com and mention love doc
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Speaker 1: my son I recently switched to sheets when he was
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Speaker 1: don't like those sheets. What sheets did you put on?
22:57
Speaker 1: I was like, they're you know, I'm very particular about
22:59
Speaker 1: the fact that I try to be the fabric that
23:02
Speaker 1: I put on my body. And I'm like, they're one
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Speaker 1: hundred percent cotton. I'm like, but you're used to that viscus,
23:07
Speaker 1: aren't you, And he was like, yeah, they're not the
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Speaker 1: same as Cozy Earth. So even one hundred percent cotton,
23:12
Speaker 1: which I advocate for, right, one hundred percent Cotton's beautiful,
23:15
Speaker 1: but it's still not the same as that viscus bamboo
23:18
Speaker 1: because it's so soft, and it's like it's like it's
23:21
Speaker 1: but better.
23:22
Speaker 2: It's like cotton still kind of baby.
23:24
Speaker 1: Yes, that's exactly what it is.
23:25
Speaker 2: That is what it is. Yeah, so this isn't even
23:28
Speaker 2: part of the ad read anymore.
23:30
Speaker 1: I wanted to mention that what JP said because that
23:32
Speaker 1: was like a real life experience where he was like, no,
23:34
Speaker 1: these cotton sheets are not living up to And I
23:37
Speaker 1: was like, you went Cozy Earth and you can't go back,
23:39
Speaker 1: And that is true.
23:40
Speaker 2: Guys, I hate staying in a hotel now. I almost
23:42
Speaker 2: want to bring cozy sheets.
23:44
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, So go check them out at cozyearth dot com.
23:47
Speaker 1: And again mention a love doc for twenty percent off.
23:51
Speaker 2: Okay, right back to the DA woman. So I mentioned
23:54
Speaker 2: they shut down sexually. I mentioned a lot of times
23:56
Speaker 2: they're super into their kids. I mention h that they
24:00
Speaker 2: defy all expectation of what society says women want. I
24:05
Speaker 2: mention that a lot of time they can be extremely cold, critical,
24:11
Speaker 2: and critical. They don't realize that they're critical. They're paying
24:16
Speaker 2: the same as the male is. Yes, it's the same. Yeah,
24:20
Speaker 2: it's the same defectiveness, the same shame, the same fear
24:23
Speaker 2: of vulnerability, the deep seated, almost unconscious wound of rejection.
24:27
Speaker 2: Reject so you don't get rejected defectiveness. Don't get too
24:30
Speaker 2: close or you'll see them defective defectiveness as I can't
24:33
Speaker 2: why bother, it's not going to work. They have the
24:35
Speaker 2: same type of thoughts. I can't give them what they need.
24:37
Speaker 2: Maybe they need somebody that has more capacity, that can
24:39
Speaker 2: give them more emotion, or that can give them more time.
24:42
Speaker 2: They have all the same deactivating thoughts. The behaviors look very,
24:45
Speaker 2: very similar. I would say the real nuances are the
24:48
Speaker 2: sexual shutdown a little bit more critical than the damail
24:55
Speaker 2: more into their hyperfixated on their kids as a way
24:58
Speaker 2: of dissociating and uh yeah if.
25:02
Speaker 1: They are career or hobby oriented though and they don't
25:05
Speaker 1: have kids.
25:07
Speaker 2: The hyperfixation. Yeah, a DA has to have something to
25:09
Speaker 2: hyper fixate on, because that is how you stayed associated.
25:12
Speaker 2: If you're not hyperfixating, you're present in your body, which
25:15
Speaker 2: is where your feelings live. That means you have to
25:17
Speaker 2: be connected and feel. And because their brain has learned
25:20
Speaker 2: to be so scared of feeling, the hyperfixation stays away
25:25
Speaker 2: for their brain to be busy and not present in
25:28
Speaker 2: the body where your feelings live.
25:30
Speaker 1: Yeah. So, And I mean the strategy and the intervention
25:34
Speaker 1: is the same. Altho. It is the same.
25:36
Speaker 2: It is exactly the same. It's just that it's so
25:41
Speaker 2: unexpected for the men because again, just society says it's
25:45
Speaker 2: that's why I get so nauseated by what women want.
25:48
Speaker 2: Is I'm like accept for the DA. Yeah. I don't
25:51
Speaker 2: want to say that on every I want to literally
25:54
Speaker 2: troll every post that's like women want this, and I
25:57
Speaker 2: just want to be like except for the dismissive of
25:59
Speaker 2: a board and folks, if you learn about them, come
26:01
Speaker 2: to my page. I don't. Maybe I should, Maybe you should,
26:05
Speaker 2: Maybe I should. Maybe I would help more people if
26:07
Speaker 2: I just because those are the men of the DA.
26:10
Speaker 2: They're searching, of course, they're googling, they're youtubing, how do
26:13
Speaker 2: I get my wife to love me?
26:15
Speaker 1: The light bulb moments that I've seen from these men
26:19
Speaker 1: and just some of the messages and conversations that I've
26:21
Speaker 1: had when they do discover you and they're like, oh
26:24
Speaker 1: my gosh, she just described my wife and I've been
26:28
Speaker 1: out here lost at sea, just like grasping at stroundering, Yeah, and.
26:33
Speaker 2: Just like how can I be successful in everything area?
26:36
Speaker 1: And it's interesting because every single one that I can
26:39
Speaker 1: think of off the top of my head that I've
26:41
Speaker 1: spoken to, and it seems like they kind of stick
26:43
Speaker 1: out my mind. One of them is a friend of mine.
26:46
Speaker 1: But it's like they all say the same thing. And
26:50
Speaker 1: they're all super successful men, yes, and they're career super successful.
26:56
Speaker 2: And so what drew them to the DA was that
26:59
Speaker 2: the DA seemed very internally stable. They were looking for
27:04
Speaker 2: someone who is going to be easy, who was going
27:07
Speaker 2: to be you know, hard working, that was going to
27:11
Speaker 2: be a real partner in their success. A good mother,
27:15
Speaker 2: and DA women can be incredible mothers.
27:18
Speaker 1: Yeah, if they're hyperfixating on their children, I mean yeah,
27:21
Speaker 1: I mean sometimes it's toxic.
27:22
Speaker 2: It can be sometimes it can be a mesh. Sometimes
27:24
Speaker 2: need be a meshed with their kids.
27:26
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's dangerous.
27:27
Speaker 2: It is dangerous, But I mean, and a lot of
27:30
Speaker 2: them are fantastic, I mean, dismissive avoidance, have superpowers. Their
27:35
Speaker 2: superpowers are give me a DA in a crisis any
27:39
Speaker 2: freaking day. Yeah, give me a DA in a crisis,
27:44
Speaker 2: I will I will run to them. And you know,
27:47
Speaker 2: it's interesting, Donald has an avoidant side to him right
27:50
Speaker 2: as a former FA. He's so good in a crisis.
27:55
Speaker 2: But I think maybe that's his military training. Probably there
27:58
Speaker 2: was one time, remember the I think I told the
27:59
Speaker 2: story on the po where we literally so many times
28:02
Speaker 2: have been near a tornado and thought we were gonna die.
28:06
Speaker 2: We were in the camper and a tornado passed within
28:08
Speaker 2: like one hundred feet of us, and it blew the
28:11
Speaker 2: camper office block multiple Donald was covering us, and Lexi
28:16
Speaker 2: and Gabby are like shaking and crying, and DJ's upset,
28:19
Speaker 2: and Lily, Lily is Lily, She's very quiet, and so
28:23
Speaker 2: she was just going with the flow. But he was
28:24
Speaker 2: just calm's cue, it's gonna be okay, it's not getting us.
28:27
Speaker 2: I'm here. I'm not gonna let anything happen to any
28:29
Speaker 2: of you. You're safe with me. I don't care what
28:30
Speaker 2: I have to do. I will brace myself no matter what.
28:33
Speaker 2: It's not. It's gonna it's gonna pass. It's gonna pass.
28:35
Speaker 1: Don't worry.
28:36
Speaker 2: I will never let anything happen to you, And he
28:37
Speaker 2: just kept saying, you're safe with me, I'll never let anything.
28:40
Speaker 2: Cool as a cucumber. Yeah, I swear. He went outside
28:44
Speaker 2: when it was over and threw up. I do.
28:50
Speaker 1: I do find it interesting.
28:51
Speaker 2: But he said, like I felt my avoidance side, like
28:54
Speaker 2: I felt that compartment. I felt the shut off. And
28:57
Speaker 2: it's interesting when you find a fearful avoidant who has
29:00
Speaker 2: both sides, and you have been in both sides, like
29:02
Speaker 2: I've been in both of my sides when I dated
29:07
Speaker 2: you know, yeah, ap dude, and I went into my
29:10
Speaker 2: like avoidance side. It is a different experience, totally different.
29:16
Speaker 1: Been there too.
29:18
Speaker 2: You just you feel numb, and the DA women that
29:23
Speaker 2: is the number one thing that they use when they
29:26
Speaker 2: describe things to me as numb.
29:27
Speaker 1: I'm not generic, but I mean the best way I
29:30
Speaker 1: could describe it again is just it's an icky feeling.
29:32
Speaker 2: Yeah, you feel ick.
29:34
Speaker 1: You're like you're like you're not even attracted to them.
29:36
Speaker 1: You're like, well, I'm not even attracted to this person.
29:39
Speaker 1: Why am I even like hanging out with them?
29:41
Speaker 2: And I had never experienced my true like avoidance side.
29:45
Speaker 2: I would have my I would as an FA with
29:47
Speaker 2: like the micro moments of being da like okay, I
29:51
Speaker 2: would get hopeless and shut down for a little while,
29:53
Speaker 2: but then pretty soon my anxious activity would start to come,
29:57
Speaker 2: you know, come out and activate again, and I'd be
29:58
Speaker 2: seeking connection be like, oh my gosh, I can't believe
30:00
Speaker 2: I pushed you away. I'm so sorry. I can't believe
30:02
Speaker 2: I did that. Please forgive me. What an exhausting life.
30:07
Speaker 2: But that time when I dated ap guy and he
30:10
Speaker 2: was up but even telling me like it would like,
30:15
Speaker 2: can you use more emojis when you talk to me?
30:17
Speaker 2: I remember that conversation that I didn't use enough emojis? What?
30:20
Speaker 1: Yeah, I remember that too.
30:22
Speaker 2: And I literally it made me sick to my stomach.
30:24
Speaker 2: I was like, this is the most unattractive thing I
30:28
Speaker 2: could ever be around. Yeah, you're telling me I don't
30:31
Speaker 2: use enough emojis.
30:33
Speaker 1: Yeah. And he was basically just expressing a need. It's
30:35
Speaker 1: a I don't want to say it's a silly need.
30:37
Speaker 1: That's not fair, but it's a little silly. It felt.
30:40
Speaker 2: That's what it felt like. It felt like you're critiquing
30:41
Speaker 2: my texting. That's silly, that's like my emoji level. Like
30:45
Speaker 2: I can see I'm not communicating openly or something like that.
30:47
Speaker 2: But where I just am not putting a ton of emo,
30:49
Speaker 2: he would use like seven emojis well.
30:51
Speaker 1: And that's where I think the communication of someone in
30:54
Speaker 1: their anxious side and somebody on their wooden side, it
30:57
Speaker 1: just goes all wrong, right, because it's like this super
31:01
Speaker 1: super push and this like super super polar let me
31:04
Speaker 1: go yeah yeah, and there and and the request of
31:07
Speaker 1: the more anxious person they it is a little forfetched
31:11
Speaker 1: and silly at times. It can't always, it can be
31:14
Speaker 1: sometimes it's not.
31:15
Speaker 2: Sometimes it's just they're they're asking for real, normal, genuine
31:19
Speaker 2: love and reciprocation. But when someone is deactivated, they are numb.
31:26
Speaker 1: You don't get to.
31:27
Speaker 2: Choose what you suppress. And I say this all the time,
31:29
Speaker 2: but maybe we have a new listener. Everything goes into
31:32
Speaker 2: the suppression bucket. I've studied the nervous system long enough
31:35
Speaker 2: to know this. You cannot suppress pain and still be
31:40
Speaker 2: open for joy. You cannot suppress pain and discomfort and
31:44
Speaker 2: still be open for vulnerability. Those are different parts of
31:48
Speaker 2: the brain. One shuts the other off. So when you suppress,
31:52
Speaker 2: it shuts off your ability to really emote. Yeah, so
31:59
Speaker 2: everything into the suppression bucket. You're not like suppressing pain
32:02
Speaker 2: and keeping joy. And a lot of DA women are
32:05
Speaker 2: low level depressed. I'll die on that hill. Yeah, I'll
32:09
Speaker 2: die on that hill. I'm not a mental health provider,
32:11
Speaker 2: but this is their own self report of low level depression.
32:16
Speaker 2: So a lot of DA women come to me saying
32:18
Speaker 2: I'm low level depressed because I'm not depressed enough to
32:20
Speaker 2: need an antidepressant or depressed enough where I should like,
32:25
Speaker 2: I feel like I need to go to the doctor,
32:26
Speaker 2: but i just feel like everything's just okayish, And I'm like, oh, yeah,
32:31
Speaker 2: that's the real typical suppression. I mean, that's what DA
32:33
Speaker 2: men tell me too. But women, I think are just
32:35
Speaker 2: more They're more articulate about it.
32:39
Speaker 1: Yeah. I can even speak on that, you know, because
32:41
Speaker 1: I think there was a period of time where I
32:42
Speaker 1: was more, definitely more in my avoidant side. And I
32:47
Speaker 1: can think back to that time and it was like,
32:51
Speaker 1: like you said, I don't think I felt depressed per se.
32:54
Speaker 1: I just felt well numb, yeah check nothing, yeah, just
32:59
Speaker 1: like okay, okay, yeah. And I even still have moments,
33:03
Speaker 1: you know, even now where I have to notice when
33:07
Speaker 1: I've been suppressing for too long. Yeah, I mean it
33:10
Speaker 1: just recently happened because we've had a lot going on
33:13
Speaker 1: with the business. Oh yeah, and it's kind of kept
33:15
Speaker 1: me wrapped up. And I'm you know, I'm notorious for
33:19
Speaker 1: taking on other people's stresses, and so you know, this
33:24
Speaker 1: is where I have to check myself because it's not you,
33:29
Speaker 1: it's me, Like I'll just take it on and then
33:34
Speaker 1: just suppress, suppress, suppress. And I think that that's why
33:37
Speaker 1: when I was talking to Lauren that night, like I
33:39
Speaker 1: just started crying and could not stop and then I
33:43
Speaker 1: just started like screaming into the air. But it was good,
33:46
Speaker 1: it was it was healthy, Like it felt really good
33:49
Speaker 1: to do it, to just like let it out with
33:52
Speaker 1: no judgment.
33:53
Speaker 3: Right.
33:53
Speaker 1: I think that's where people go wrong.
33:55
Speaker 2: It's and you didn't stop it, right, And if you
33:57
Speaker 2: don't feel unsafe in the process, then you are getting
34:00
Speaker 2: to completion. So that window. And I want to explain
34:03
Speaker 2: this too, because I'm sure we'll have a Karen that's like,
34:07
Speaker 2: you explained window of tolerance wrong, and I'll have to
34:09
Speaker 2: go no, I didn't. We're just talking about okay. So
34:14
Speaker 2: in the episode just okay, in the episode of emotional processing.
34:19
Speaker 2: I explained, window of tolerance is how well can you
34:21
Speaker 2: stay how long can you stay present in your body
34:23
Speaker 2: with your sensations and still feel safe. In general stress research,
34:28
Speaker 2: window of tolerance is how long can you stay in
34:31
Speaker 2: ventralvagel without getting disregulated? Period. But when you're talking about
34:35
Speaker 2: somatic processing, window of tolerance definition changes to how long
34:39
Speaker 2: can you tolerate your dysregulated sensations before you have to
34:43
Speaker 2: band aid or associate. So it's still the same concept,
34:46
Speaker 2: just applied to different settings. If we're talking about general
34:49
Speaker 2: stress tolerance, then yes, window of tolerance is how long
34:52
Speaker 2: can you, like, how much stress can you take before
34:54
Speaker 2: you get disregulated? But once you're already dysregulated and you're
34:57
Speaker 2: trying to somatically process, it's how long can you sit
35:00
Speaker 2: with your sensations before you have to take action against them? There.
35:05
Speaker 2: I just when I got off that episode, I go,
35:07
Speaker 2: oh my gosh, you know what, there's going to be
35:08
Speaker 2: a Karen that doesn't understand this that makes sense? But
35:11
Speaker 2: they're clear there, okay, that makes.
35:13
Speaker 1: Sense, and I did. I had to force myself to
35:16
Speaker 1: stay there, you know, I soul less, honey, Yeah, I
35:18
Speaker 1: had to force myself to stay there, and because I did,
35:21
Speaker 1: I wanted to kind of pull away from it and
35:23
Speaker 1: do the things that's the way down surfboard. Yes, but
35:28
Speaker 1: I was just like, no, I'm going to stay here
35:29
Speaker 1: and I'm going to I'm going to see this through.
35:32
Speaker 2: Yeah, your body integrated lighter. So that's completion, the lighter
35:37
Speaker 2: feeling and the entired feeling, like I could just go
35:39
Speaker 2: take a nap. Yeah, that's completion. That's integration. That's when
35:43
Speaker 2: the emotional energy has discharged from your body.
35:47
Speaker 1: I needed it bad.
35:47
Speaker 2: And dismissive avoidance, oh my goodness. The dismissive avoidant women
35:53
Speaker 2: that I meet too are so much more prone to
35:56
Speaker 2: the autoimmunity dysfunction than the men. And it's interesting. I'm
36:01
Speaker 2: not sure again why if maybe our systems are just
36:04
Speaker 2: more susceptible.
36:05
Speaker 1: Yeah, to it. The physiological respect of a woman's body
36:08
Speaker 1: is just so different.
36:09
Speaker 2: Yes, our nervous systems are more cyclical. Our nervous systems
36:12
Speaker 2: actually operate around our cycle. If you don't understand that,
36:16
Speaker 2: go see Dana Dazzy. I will always mention it. Gosh,
36:19
Speaker 2: I love Dana too. Every video I'm just like slow
36:22
Speaker 2: freaking clad me too, and at her me too, Dana,
36:26
Speaker 2: just if you listen to us so intelligent. I love you.
36:29
Speaker 3: I know.
36:31
Speaker 1: I just need to Yeah, I just need to be
36:32
Speaker 1: more intentional and reach out to her and just have
36:35
Speaker 1: her back on because she is so like and I
36:38
Speaker 1: feel like she even since we had her on last time,
36:40
Speaker 1: like she is elevated.
36:42
Speaker 2: Oh gosh, she has leveled up. Yes she has. And
36:45
Speaker 2: she's a brilliant mind and so brilliant. There are so
36:48
Speaker 2: many brilliant minds guys to learn from, and I consider
36:52
Speaker 2: myself a lifelong learner and I'm not the end. I'll
36:54
Speaker 2: be on every area of psychology. Psychology is one of
36:56
Speaker 2: the most broad disciplines that exists. People don't realize that
36:59
Speaker 2: only thirty three percent of the discipline of psychology is
37:01
Speaker 2: clinical psychology. The rest of us are niche experimentalist scientists
37:06
Speaker 2: in our field.
37:07
Speaker 1: And so it makes sense because there's so much about
37:09
Speaker 1: the brain and the nervous.
37:10
Speaker 2: Sixty seven percent of the discipline is doing the research
37:13
Speaker 2: that hands it to the clinicians. So they are Karen,
37:17
Speaker 2: they're Karen, You're not a clinician. You shouldn't be talking
37:20
Speaker 2: about this. Really, oh really, oh really? I love that
37:24
Speaker 2: about narcissists too. It's like, oh my gosh, I I
37:29
Speaker 2: have Like, I could tell you every theory of narcissism
37:34
Speaker 2: that exists in the science, and then somebody will literally
37:37
Speaker 2: look at me and tell me I'm not educated to
37:38
Speaker 2: talk about narcisism because I'm not a clinical psychologist.
37:43
Speaker 1: Any who.
37:44
Speaker 2: Any who, the DI woman, she's not a narcissist. Yeah,
37:47
Speaker 2: and do get called narcissists all the time. That is
37:50
Speaker 2: the number one I think the number one question I
37:52
Speaker 2: get is what is the difference between dan and a narcissist?
37:55
Speaker 2: Desire for power and control, complete lack of empathy. Do
37:59
Speaker 2: I as have empathy? They just in the moment with
38:02
Speaker 2: high stakes partner, they're so justsregulated they can't access it.
38:06
Speaker 2: It's not that they're like they can't have any empathy.
38:11
Speaker 2: They're not psychopaths.
38:12
Speaker 1: Yeah. I always tell people when they ask when I
38:14
Speaker 1: see that question, it's just like, evaluate all of their relationships.
38:20
Speaker 2: What are their other relationships? Like it's your tell tale sign?
38:22
Speaker 1: Is I mean, gosh, if they're struggling with like if
38:25
Speaker 1: they struggle holding down a job because they can't take
38:28
Speaker 1: authority from a boss, if they can't talk to your
38:30
Speaker 1: child's coach properly, or your child's teacher properly. If they
38:34
Speaker 1: struggle with their relationships with their siblings and their parents, yes,
38:37
Speaker 1: those their telltale sons and das.
38:40
Speaker 2: Are usually close to their family of origin. They actually
38:42
Speaker 2: people please family of origin a lot of the time. Yes,
38:45
Speaker 2: And I think that that's another DA quality, maybe a
38:48
Speaker 2: little bit more pronounced than women. They're people pleasers to everybody,
38:52
Speaker 2: but they're a romantic partner, and so they're romantic partners.
38:54
Speaker 2: Like I am literally last on the list, even the
38:57
Speaker 2: dog comes before me.
39:00
Speaker 1: You are speaking to so many people right now that,
39:03
Speaker 1: like men that are going through this. I know that
39:06
Speaker 1: you are speaking.
39:06
Speaker 2: I see you, I hear you, I understand you. If
39:12
Speaker 2: I can get a DA in front of me, I
39:14
Speaker 2: can almost always convince them that there's a path forward
39:18
Speaker 2: for them that is going to be not necessarily easy,
39:23
Speaker 2: but not out of their comfort zone. Yeah, Like they
39:26
Speaker 2: can heal within their comfort zone, you know, I should say,
39:29
Speaker 2: do they have to slowly expose themselves little by little
39:33
Speaker 2: past their comfort zone? Yes, but we do again small exposures.
39:37
Speaker 2: That's the concept of window of tolerance is like we
39:40
Speaker 2: will get you feeling your emotions and if it's for
39:42
Speaker 2: thirty seconds, it's for thirty seconds. But that's a big
39:44
Speaker 2: freaking win. That's better than never. And then we go
39:48
Speaker 2: back again and maybe it's forty five. And then before
39:50
Speaker 2: you know it, you're able to you know, a year
39:53
Speaker 2: down the road of practicing this, you're going to be
39:55
Speaker 2: able to process in the moment and verbalize in the moment,
39:58
Speaker 2: and then you have real intimacy in the moment.
40:01
Speaker 1: You can help them fall.
40:02
Speaker 2: Yeah, they have to thaw, they have to thaw.
40:05
Speaker 1: H she's a wizard, guys, she can.
40:08
Speaker 2: Use her magical It's not magic, it's science, and it's God.
40:14
Speaker 2: God created us to be predictable beings. That the thing
40:19
Speaker 2: that's so hilarious to me. It's like personality research has
40:24
Speaker 2: almost gone down the drain. It's so interesting because personality
40:27
Speaker 2: psychologists used to bully the social psychologists. They were like,
40:30
Speaker 2: we're personality. We're at the top of the hierarchy. We
40:32
Speaker 2: control all behavior, and we are static, we don't change.
40:36
Speaker 2: And then social psychologists were like, hold my beer, and
40:38
Speaker 2: we were like power of the situation. And then we
40:42
Speaker 2: started learning that behavior is actually representative of personality and
40:45
Speaker 2: in fact, bottom up resources to change behavior actually do work,
40:49
Speaker 2: and this is so to top down resources. But now
40:54
Speaker 2: personality psychologists have to back down and been like, no,
40:56
Speaker 2: personality is somewhat changeable and flexible, way more so than
40:59
Speaker 2: we ever thought. And so I mean, if you have
41:02
Speaker 2: a personality disorder, it's kind of like the least flexible
41:08
Speaker 2: of all you know, personality related things. But social psychologists
41:13
Speaker 2: have always been about the power of situation and intimacy
41:17
Speaker 2: is situational. Intimacy is a situation, and so who better
41:23
Speaker 2: to study it than social psychologists who study the power
41:25
Speaker 2: of situation. Who's dependant variable is always behavior and attachment
41:31
Speaker 2: style forms from conditioning, which is the efforts of John B.
41:35
Speaker 2: Watson and the efforts of BF Skinner, who is the
41:38
Speaker 2: most favorite famous behaviorists that ever existed. So this is
41:41
Speaker 2: why I'm just like when people shake their finger at
41:43
Speaker 2: me that clinical psychologists are the experts on attachment, and
41:47
Speaker 2: I'm like, yeah, how well therapy worked out for you?
41:50
Speaker 2: And I don't mean to put therapist down. I'm just
41:52
Speaker 2: saying that they serve mental health, they serve a different
41:55
Speaker 2: they serve a different type of need. I think that
42:01
Speaker 2: social psychologists and attachment coaches are far better resourced to
42:08
Speaker 2: understand that this is a conditioned set of behaviors and
42:12
Speaker 2: so reconditioning is required.
42:17
Speaker 1: It's like being in the lab outside of the lab.
42:19
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, and talk therapy does not do an avoidant
42:25
Speaker 2: any good.
42:27
Speaker 1: Yeah, that was actually gonna be my end question was like,
42:30
Speaker 1: for these men that you are are women, you know,
42:32
Speaker 1: I mean, obviously.
42:33
Speaker 2: Get them in my group. Yeah, I'll say it again
42:35
Speaker 2: and again and again. I built the group to bypass
42:38
Speaker 2: the defenses and the wounds of the DA. I built
42:40
Speaker 2: it to bypass their wounding. It is a space where
42:43
Speaker 2: they can be anonymous, they can be a wallflower. They
42:45
Speaker 2: are never asked to share, they will not receive an
42:47
Speaker 2: ounce of criticism, and they can learn and they can
42:50
Speaker 2: go home with the prescriptive logical tools that make sense
42:54
Speaker 2: to them. And once you get them to buy in logically,
42:58
Speaker 2: most of them do it.
43:01
Speaker 1: Most of them.
43:02
Speaker 3: Yeah.
43:02
Speaker 1: I think most of your really really profound reviews come
43:07
Speaker 1: from those partners, whether they're male or female, who have
43:11
Speaker 1: a DA partner and they're starting to really see the changes.
43:14
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it feels like mercy has been granted upon that.
43:19
Speaker 1: Yeah, I can imagine I can starve.
43:21
Speaker 2: It's like a starving person gets to eat. I know,
43:25
Speaker 2: it's it's so heartbreaking, and I'm not again, I'm not
43:29
Speaker 2: villainizing them. You know when FA can scream in your
43:31
Speaker 2: face and give you the middle finger and drive off
43:33
Speaker 2: and block you names and stuff. Yeah, they can. I
43:36
Speaker 2: mean they can be rough, they can manipulate. Fas are
43:39
Speaker 2: way more manipulative than das.
43:41
Speaker 1: They tend to be more narcissistic for sure.
43:42
Speaker 2: Yeah. The base attachment for narcissism is fearful avoidance. So
43:45
Speaker 2: I can't villainize the DA.
43:47
Speaker 1: Yeah, we're not villainizing. We're just talking, like I just again,
43:50
Speaker 1: We've said it a million times. It's just that most
43:52
Speaker 1: people come into your practice that are struggling with a
43:56
Speaker 1: DA partner, Yes, and they don't know what to do.
43:59
Speaker 2: They don't know what to do because it just defies
44:02
Speaker 2: what you would think people want in a relationship.
44:05
Speaker 1: Yeah, and they feel so stuck because at least, with
44:08
Speaker 1: like an FA, you're getting some emotion. Yeah, right, you're
44:11
Speaker 1: getting something.
44:12
Speaker 2: And like I have these fas all the time whose
44:14
Speaker 2: blueprint is like, well, fighting is still love because at
44:17
Speaker 2: least you're still in the game. But to a DA,
44:20
Speaker 2: fighting isn't love at all fighting is horrible. Fighting is
44:23
Speaker 2: the meanest thing you could do. So that's why they're
44:26
Speaker 2: not going to fight with you. And then they think
44:27
Speaker 2: that they're the more morally righteous one because I don't
44:31
Speaker 2: have drama, I don't fight, I don't want to get
44:33
Speaker 2: out of hand. But you also don't contribute anything. Then
44:35
Speaker 2: either you're just cutting it off. There's no intimacy, there's
44:38
Speaker 2: nothing to repair with. There's nothing. And I'm not saying
44:41
Speaker 2: fighting is a better strategy. That's dysfunctional too. Conflict resolution
44:45
Speaker 2: and repair has to occur in a healthy way. But
44:48
Speaker 2: the way the fas look at it is, but if
44:50
Speaker 2: you stay here and fight with me, at least I
44:51
Speaker 2: know you care. When you totally abandon me, then I
44:54
Speaker 2: have no choice but to think you don't care, and
44:56
Speaker 2: that there could be nothing further from the truth. The
44:58
Speaker 2: dismissible avoid and absolutely care. They just don't know what
45:00
Speaker 2: to do, and they're afraid of making it worse, and
45:03
Speaker 2: they think that they've been taught their whole life that
45:06
Speaker 2: conflict is bad and they're terrified of the vulnerability and
45:08
Speaker 2: they're frozen. So then when people ask them, how do
45:11
Speaker 2: you feel right now? What do you think that? Then
45:13
Speaker 2: they say, I don't know, and then they feel incompetent
45:16
Speaker 2: and they feel outwitted by their partners, and they're not
45:19
Speaker 2: going to continue to put themselves in a situation where
45:21
Speaker 2: they feel incompetent and outwitted. Why would you do that?
45:24
Speaker 2: It doesn't make any sense. Yeah, so that's why they
45:27
Speaker 2: don't participate.
45:28
Speaker 1: Yeah, you just describe the pain of so many people
45:31
Speaker 1: that I know are experiencing this, and I mean just
45:35
Speaker 1: because of the plethora of messages that I see. And
45:37
Speaker 1: it's interesting because I see I'm seeing more of the
45:41
Speaker 1: das I think come forward, and.
45:43
Speaker 2: They are, and I love getting participation from my DAS
45:47
Speaker 2: and group. I will be like, if you are a DA,
45:50
Speaker 2: give me and it'll be a lot of blank screens, right,
45:53
Speaker 2: a lot of anonymous. I'll be like, give me a
45:54
Speaker 2: heart or a thumbs up if you've ever had this experience,
45:58
Speaker 2: and It'll be really eye open for their partner. I'm like,
46:00
Speaker 2: if you've had this internal felt experience, like I just
46:04
Speaker 2: can't give them what they need or I just don't
46:05
Speaker 2: know what they want from me, and I just they're
46:07
Speaker 2: asking me for this and I'm confused of like what
46:09
Speaker 2: they mean. I don't know how to give it, and
46:11
Speaker 2: you feel really helpless and ashamed, and they will they'll clap,
46:15
Speaker 2: or they'll give me a heart, or they'll give me something,
46:17
Speaker 2: and it'll just it'll be flooded with these like emojis
46:20
Speaker 2: and and it's just like, oh, they're seen.
46:23
Speaker 1: That perspective shift is yeah, and.
46:25
Speaker 2: They're like, I'm not alone. Wow, Because defectiveness says you're
46:28
Speaker 2: the only one. Yeah, you're bad and you're shameful and
46:32
Speaker 2: you're the only one that's made like this.
46:34
Speaker 1: Yeah, what a lonely feeling and there's no truth to it, right, Yeah, Oh,
46:39
Speaker 1: your group is so beautiful. Please, guys. I mean I
46:41
Speaker 1: can't encourage it enough, you know, not only because doctor
46:46
Speaker 1: Hensley's no longer taking on new clients, but just because
46:50
Speaker 1: it truly is the best service that you offer.
46:54
Speaker 2: It is the best service that I offer, and I
46:56
Speaker 2: stand by it because it's not doing anybody any good
47:00
Speaker 2: to charge one thousand dollars plus for a coaching service, which,
47:04
Speaker 2: if I'm honest, you know, it's not the scale the
47:08
Speaker 2: most scalable thing, right right, it's not. It's actually giving
47:11
Speaker 2: people a discount, which is crazy when you think about
47:14
Speaker 2: what you make in social media content, or what you
47:16
Speaker 2: make in the group, or what you make in these
47:18
Speaker 2: other areas of the business. But I can't give you
47:21
Speaker 2: in an hour one on one what I can give
47:25
Speaker 2: you in four hours of group for less price.
47:28
Speaker 1: Yep.
47:29
Speaker 2: And I can still the groups are small enough that
47:31
Speaker 2: I can still answer your questions, I can still attune
47:33
Speaker 2: to you, I can still you know, give you personalization
47:37
Speaker 2: of the tools. So it's it's so worth it.
47:39
Speaker 1: And because attachment is so predictive of behavior within romantic relationships,
47:44
Speaker 1: even though there are those small nuances, you've been doing
47:47
Speaker 1: this long enough where you know so many of those anyway,
47:50
Speaker 1: because I think that a lot of people get you know,
47:53
Speaker 1: they get sidetracked by well, I just need to explain
47:55
Speaker 1: my situation to her, and then I'm.
47:58
Speaker 2: Just like, your situation may have a lot of the
48:00
Speaker 2: unique pieces, but it's the same damn anxious avoidant trap
48:03
Speaker 2: that the other folks over here are experiencing. And I
48:05
Speaker 2: hate to be that blunt. And I think that's where
48:07
Speaker 2: I was going with that whole personality psychologist versus social psychologist,
48:11
Speaker 2: is that individual differences inside of romantic relationships not that important,
48:17
Speaker 2: not that important.
48:19
Speaker 1: Yeah, because the baseline is the same.
48:20
Speaker 2: It's the same. There's like five relationship patterns.
48:23
Speaker 1: It's why you can literally predict someone's attachment or yeah,
48:27
Speaker 1: you can. You can tell somebody's attachment style, like almost
48:30
Speaker 1: just by having a few sentences with them.
48:33
Speaker 2: I almost can't.
48:34
Speaker 1: It's like then their tone of voice.
48:36
Speaker 2: It's so scary accurate, it's so predictable. Human beings are
48:40
Speaker 2: insanely predictable. Everybody wants to think that they're either unique
48:43
Speaker 2: wildflower and in some ways, yes, with your general personality, okay,
48:47
Speaker 2: you are, but when it comes to your romantic behavior,
48:50
Speaker 2: you're in one of four buckets. Yep. Yeah, it's just
48:54
Speaker 2: it is if we have enough science, we have decades
48:56
Speaker 2: of research, and that's why, like, I don't know. We
48:59
Speaker 2: talked to some the other day that wanted to be
49:02
Speaker 2: a guest on the podcast and he's not going to
49:04
Speaker 2: be a guest on the podcast, but he was like,
49:06
Speaker 2: I don't I don't really know anything about attachment. It
49:09
Speaker 2: was like, how do you do what you do and
49:11
Speaker 2: you don't know about attachment? Yeah, we only have goodness, gracious,
49:16
Speaker 2: forty what are years sixty seventy one years of research?
49:23
Speaker 1: Yeah, almost one hundred years.
49:25
Speaker 2: That's wild of research on this, and you don't. It's
49:28
Speaker 2: never been debunked. It's never nobody has ever come out
49:33
Speaker 2: and said, you know what, this is false. We can
49:35
Speaker 2: actually show that your early childhood experiences have nothing to
49:38
Speaker 2: do with your adult romantic behavior. Nobody's been able to
49:40
Speaker 2: do that.
49:41
Speaker 1: Yeah.
49:41
Speaker 2: In fact, the more people study it, the more people
49:44
Speaker 2: are like, the clearer it gets.
49:46
Speaker 1: It's why it's trending because it's so predicted.
49:48
Speaker 2: It's so predicted, and it was cut out of all
49:50
Speaker 2: these training programs years ago because we went from seven
49:54
Speaker 2: year PhD programs to three year PhD programs. I can
49:57
Speaker 2: go get a PhD in three years. That took me.
50:02
Speaker 1: That's how long did it take me? Five? Yeah, and
50:06
Speaker 1: I work on top of your masters and your bachelor's.
50:10
Speaker 2: While the master's was built in Okay, so it took
50:12
Speaker 2: me to it took me two years to get my
50:15
Speaker 2: masters in three years on top of that. But that's
50:18
Speaker 2: that is a what they call a track program. So
50:20
Speaker 2: you're you're walking into a PhD program. You get your
50:23
Speaker 2: masters along the way after you do a thesis. But
50:26
Speaker 2: now we have separate one year masters like summer to
50:30
Speaker 2: summer Masters, and then a three year online PhD's. Yeah,
50:36
Speaker 2: some of them are even two point five. I found
50:37
Speaker 2: the one the other day that was two point five yours.
50:41
Speaker 1: I'm scary.
50:42
Speaker 2: No, wonder people are putting out junk quizzes that measure
50:46
Speaker 2: quote attachment style because they don't know any better. What
50:49
Speaker 2: did they take out psychometric training and your doctoral work
50:51
Speaker 2: like that's you do order?
50:53
Speaker 1: You do wonder what they're taking out if they're shortening
50:56
Speaker 1: it by that much a lot.
50:57
Speaker 2: Yeah, they're treating they're they're talking about anxiety, depression, autism, OCD,
51:03
Speaker 2: the personality disorders.
51:05
Speaker 1: Which, interesting enough, most of them sim from attachment.
51:08
Speaker 2: Trauma trauma gone wrong.
51:12
Speaker 1: Yeah, so guys, we if you are struggling with the
51:17
Speaker 1: DA female partner, like doctor Hinsley says, she sees you.
51:23
Speaker 2: She see you, I hear you. If you are the
51:25
Speaker 2: DA woman, I see you, I hear you. I am
51:27
Speaker 2: here for you. I will work with you. I will
51:29
Speaker 2: hold your hand through it because I know that you suffer.
51:31
Speaker 1: Yeah.
51:32
Speaker 2: I know you don't want to feel like you are
51:33
Speaker 2: always letting your partner down. I know you always want
51:35
Speaker 2: to feel like you're getting it wrong. That's exhausting.
51:38
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it would be exhausting if he.
51:39
Speaker 2: Wants to live in a relationship where they always feel
51:42
Speaker 2: like a failure.
51:42
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's painful. That's painful in itself as well, and
51:45
Speaker 1: so we definitely don't want to villainize the DA in
51:48
Speaker 1: any sense here.
51:49
Speaker 2: All attachment styles. I am very open and direct about
51:52
Speaker 2: the strengths and the weaknesses.
51:53
Speaker 1: Yep, that's right. So please, guys, if this resonates with you,
51:57
Speaker 1: continue to listen, give leave us a review, write us.
52:02
Speaker 1: As we go into twenty twenty six, we have so
52:06
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52:09
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52:12
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52:15
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52:22
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52:25
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52:32
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52:34
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52:37
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52:43
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52:48
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52:51
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52:56
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54:36
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