Latest / The Grammar of Classical Education / Book Recommendation & Discussion - The Liberal Arts Tradition #7 (Ep 23)

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Book Recommendation & Discussion - The Liberal Arts Tradition #7 (Ep 23) · The Grammar of Classical Education

• 0:07
  SPEAKER_00: Hello,
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_00: welcome to the Grammar of Classical Education,
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_00: a podcast that covers the foundations as well as the philosophical and theoretical
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_00: ideas of classical learning in a user-friendly and,
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_00: may I even say,
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_00: interesting way.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_00: I'm your host, Dr. Darlene Gomes from Leading to Wonder, and I'm so glad that you could join me today.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_00: Last week,
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_00: we finally made it to the foundational element of Clark and Jane's PG-mapped format,
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  SPEAKER_00: which is the first letter P,
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  SPEAKER_00: piety.
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  SPEAKER_00: As they formatted the liberal arts tradition,
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_00: piety,
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  SPEAKER_00: or as they define it,
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  SPEAKER_00: the proper love and fear of God and man,
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  SPEAKER_00: including the duty,
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  SPEAKER_00: respect,
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  SPEAKER_00: and allegiance owed to each,
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  SPEAKER_00: must be the foundational element of our educational process.
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  SPEAKER_00: We talked last week about how piety helps to guide our body,
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  SPEAKER_00: soul,
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  SPEAKER_00: and spirit,
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  SPEAKER_00: helping us to order our loves.
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  SPEAKER_00: And while gymnastic training deals with the body and musical training deals with
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  SPEAKER_00: the soul,
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  SPEAKER_00: it's piety that really serves to guide them both.
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  SPEAKER_00: I did mention last week that we would be talking a bit about how piety can find its
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_00: place into our classrooms,
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  SPEAKER_00: which does lead us to addressing the issue of classroom discipline or classroom management,
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  SPEAKER_00: if you prefer.
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  SPEAKER_00: While classroom control is necessary for teaching to truly take place,
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  SPEAKER_00: it really is important that we consider how our classroom discipline or management
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  SPEAKER_00: fits into our teaching of piety.
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  SPEAKER_00: So let's start by just addressing the terminology.
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  SPEAKER_00: One teacher training video I found defined classroom discipline as,
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  SPEAKER_00: quote,
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  SPEAKER_00: teaching others to obey rules or norms by punishing to correct unwanted behavior.
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  SPEAKER_00: It went on to say that it's used to ensure that routines are maintained,
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  SPEAKER_00: that rules are enforced,
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  SPEAKER_00: and that students have a safe learning environment.
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  SPEAKER_00: The presenter admitted that there is a negative connotation to the term discipline.
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  SPEAKER_00: but that it had a positive goal of teaching students boundaries and limits that
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  SPEAKER_00: will help them really not just in school,
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  SPEAKER_00: but in life.
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  SPEAKER_00: With that in mind,
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  SPEAKER_00: I found another definition of discipline that says,
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  SPEAKER_00: quote,
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  SPEAKER_00: the rules and strategies applied in school to manage student behavior and practices
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  SPEAKER_00: were
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  SPEAKER_00: used to encourage self-discipline, end of quote.
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  SPEAKER_00: That adds a whole different element saying that it really is not just for immediate
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  SPEAKER_00: discipline of the student,
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  SPEAKER_00: but it's to aid in getting them to use that self-discipline.
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  SPEAKER_00: Now,
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  SPEAKER_00: others prefer the term classroom management,
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  SPEAKER_00: so I did want to look up some definitions of that term.
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  SPEAKER_00: One source said that classroom management,
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  SPEAKER_00: quote,
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  SPEAKER_00: refers to actions that an instructor takes to create and maintain a learning
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  SPEAKER_00: environment that is conducive to successful instruction.
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  SPEAKER_00: These actions includes decisions about structure,
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  SPEAKER_00: organization and course activities that support students by managing their
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  SPEAKER_00: expectations and behavior.
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  SPEAKER_00: As you can see,
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  SPEAKER_00: there is somewhat of a difference between that definition of classroom management
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  SPEAKER_00: and what we looked at with classroom discipline.
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  SPEAKER_00: Another source said,
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  SPEAKER_00: quote,
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  SPEAKER_00: classroom management is the process teachers use to ensure that the classroom
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  SPEAKER_00: lesson runs smoothly without disruptive behavior from students compromising the
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  SPEAKER_00: delivery of instruction.
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  SPEAKER_00: It includes prevention of disruptive behavior preemptively,
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  SPEAKER_00: as well as effectively responding to it after it happens.
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  SPEAKER_00: Now,
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  SPEAKER_00: I kind of,
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  SPEAKER_00: for me personally,
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  SPEAKER_00: felt like there was a difference between discipline and management when you say
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  SPEAKER_00: classroom discipline was more student-focused,
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  SPEAKER_00: classroom management was more classroom-focused.
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  SPEAKER_00: And I have to say, basically, we really have to consider both of them as two sides to the same coin.
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  SPEAKER_00: It will be extremely challenging to have good classroom management without some
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  SPEAKER_00: form of classroom discipline in place.
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  SPEAKER_00: And it will actually be quite impossible to have classroom discipline without the
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  SPEAKER_00: structure of good classroom management.
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  SPEAKER_00: But the question then becomes, how do those concepts
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  SPEAKER_00: fit into the framework of piety.
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  SPEAKER_00: We are actually stepping out of the liberal arts tradition for a bit and
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  SPEAKER_00: considering how we can bring a training of piety,
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  SPEAKER_00: the heart,
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  SPEAKER_00: like we train the body and the soul.
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  SPEAKER_00: Outside of the fact that we could spend a
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  SPEAKER_00: very long time discussing this area, let's narrow it down to just a few basic ideas.
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  SPEAKER_00: And we'll have to think about maybe coming back to revisit this topic in another series.
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  SPEAKER_00: There are just so many elements to address and good conversations to be had.
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  SPEAKER_00: But...
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  SPEAKER_00: When we consider piety,
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  SPEAKER_00: the proper love and fear of God and man,
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  SPEAKER_00: including the duty,
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  SPEAKER_00: respect,
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  SPEAKER_00: and allegiance owed to each other,
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  SPEAKER_00: there is one basic thing that we need to remember,
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  SPEAKER_00: and that is it is crucial that our goal is
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  SPEAKER_00: be to address the heart and not just fix the behavior.
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  SPEAKER_00: And this may seem kind of easy to understand, but it is really quite challenging to do.
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  SPEAKER_00: Mainly, the issue is, is it takes time.
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  SPEAKER_00: It is so much easier to say, stop that, or you're getting a demerit, or you're losing recess.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's easier to do a tactical redirect.
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  SPEAKER_00: But is that addressing the heart of the problem?
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  SPEAKER_00: Not.
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  SPEAKER_00: Really?
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  SPEAKER_00: Would it be better just to write their name on the board and keep going?
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  SPEAKER_00: Well, if that's all you're doing, that really isn't much better.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yes,
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  SPEAKER_00: classroom management and classroom discipline procedures have to go hand in hand,
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  SPEAKER_00: but they cannot stand alone.
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  SPEAKER_00: Piety and the training of the heart requires that student behavior be addressed in
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  SPEAKER_00: the light of scripture.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's constantly pointing them back to what does the scripture say about it?
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  SPEAKER_00: What does God say about it?
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  SPEAKER_00: Remember, we're looking at the proper love and fear of God and man.
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  SPEAKER_00: So we've got to take them back to that.
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  SPEAKER_00: And that is going to show in the duty,
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  SPEAKER_00: respect and allegiance that we give to God and to other people in our classroom.
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  SPEAKER_00: So dragging it all back to one focus is not the easiest part, but it is the most crucial element.
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  SPEAKER_00: There was a workshop at the ACCS conference entitled The Crack in the Marble Jar,
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  SPEAKER_00: and that workshop did an excellent job
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  SPEAKER_00: of pointing out the fact that we cannot rely on gimmicks and tricks to cajole the
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  SPEAKER_00: students into proper behavior.
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  SPEAKER_00: We
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  SPEAKER_00: need to help them develop those behavioral choice muscles.
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  SPEAKER_00: Paul Tripp in one of his books addresses this issue in a pretty unique way.
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  SPEAKER_00: I do not remember where this originally came from,
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  SPEAKER_00: but I've seen a chapel workshop done on it,
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  SPEAKER_00: and I've seen it addressed in several settings.
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  SPEAKER_00: But basically, he makes the analogy of stapling fruit,
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  SPEAKER_00: onto a tree.
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  SPEAKER_00: If an apple tree isn't producing apples,
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  SPEAKER_00: will it really help for us to just go to staple apples on that tree?
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  SPEAKER_00: Because then it looks like it's producing apples.
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  SPEAKER_00: But the question then becomes is it really producing apples?
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  SPEAKER_00: No.
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  SPEAKER_00: And when we deal with the fruit of the spirit and the seven virtues in students, we cannot force growth.
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  SPEAKER_00: In other words, we cannot staple on the apples.
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  SPEAKER_00: It is possible to have a class or a student that looks perfectly normal.
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  SPEAKER_00: well behaved, well managed, and well disciplined.
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  SPEAKER_00: But it's possible that those were just stapled apples.
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  SPEAKER_00: The heart may or may not have been involved at all.
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  SPEAKER_00: The tree may
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  SPEAKER_00: may have not actually grown any fruit.
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  SPEAKER_00: And that's where training and piety has to come into play.
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  SPEAKER_00: Helping our students develop piety requires time.
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  SPEAKER_00: It takes time to address the actual root of the problem,
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  SPEAKER_00: time to discuss God's view of the problem,
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  SPEAKER_00: time to help the child see not only the better choice,
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  SPEAKER_00: but the reason why they should be making those better choices.
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  SPEAKER_00: Again, training in piety is not one and done.
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  SPEAKER_00: Having the proper love and fear of God and man,
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  SPEAKER_00: including the duty,
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  SPEAKER_00: respect,
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  SPEAKER_00: and allegiance owed to each is a lifelong learning process.
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  SPEAKER_00: Again, as I said, maybe we can come back to this topic a bit more in the future.
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  SPEAKER_00: But for today,
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  SPEAKER_00: let's just keep moving on our overview of Clark and Jane's PG Mapped format to get
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  SPEAKER_00: a full view of the liberal arts education and table the discussion of piety,
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  SPEAKER_00: classroom discipline,
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  SPEAKER_00: and classroom management.
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  SPEAKER_00: As a review, Kiji Mapped represents the full gamut of a solid liberal arts education.
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  SPEAKER_00: Piety, gymnastic, musical, as we also looked at it, poetic training.
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  SPEAKER_00: The next A is for the arts or the liberal arts.
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  SPEAKER_00: According to Clark and Jane,
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  SPEAKER_00: the liberal arts were established all the way back in the medieval times,
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  SPEAKER_00: and it became the foundation of learning necessary to produce,
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  SPEAKER_00: as Thomas Aquinas stated it,
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  SPEAKER_00: the work of reason.
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  SPEAKER_00: So as Aquinas viewed it then, the liberal arts were indeed arts which produce something.
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  SPEAKER_00: By the way, that's the difference between an art and a science.
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  SPEAKER_00: Science works just within the brain,
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  SPEAKER_00: and it is a body of knowledge where the arts actually make something.
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  SPEAKER_00: So when imitation joins with reason, the result is an art.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's the work of reason.
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  SPEAKER_00: As Clark and Jane pointed out, piety, gymnastic and musical training, those are mainly imitations.
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  SPEAKER_00: But when we join that with reason, we get the arts, hence the A in their PG mapped format.
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  SPEAKER_00: The liberal arts themselves,
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  SPEAKER_00: as just a quick overview,
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  SPEAKER_00: they're made up of the trivium and the quadrivium.
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  SPEAKER_00: The word trivium actually translates to the place where three roads meet.
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  SPEAKER_00: And so it stands to reason that quadrivium is the place where roads
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  SPEAKER_00: Four roads meet.
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  SPEAKER_00: So we have this trivium three and the quadrivium four.
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  SPEAKER_00: The trivium deals mainly with language and is comprised of grammar, dialectic, and rhetoric.
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  SPEAKER_00: Now,
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  SPEAKER_00: you may remember a few weeks back I had a slight panic moment thinking that the
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_00: title of my podcast stood in complete contrast to the most accurate view of grammar
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  SPEAKER_00: and that while it may be suitable by the definition used in most classical areas as
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  SPEAKER_00: the foundational elements of all subjects,
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  SPEAKER_00: Grammar is actually feeling at home in the language when you look at it in classical education.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's looking at what other authors or authorities say about a subject.
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  SPEAKER_00: And so by that standard, yes, my podcast is accurately titled The Grammar of Classical Education.
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  SPEAKER_00: Unfortunately,
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  SPEAKER_00: many in classical Christian education view grammar as the foundational element of
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  SPEAKER_00: all subjects.
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  SPEAKER_00: We had talked about this before, the grammar of language, the grammar of science, the grammar of art.
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  SPEAKER_00: But actually, in its original use, grammar was focused mainly on the language.
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  SPEAKER_00: So when Clark and Jane describe it, they say it is being at home in the language.
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  SPEAKER_00: And really, our ability to communicate through spoken word
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  SPEAKER_00: is one of the major characteristics that puts us apart from any other living creature.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_00: We were created in the image of God, and it's interesting that the word for word is logos.
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  SPEAKER_00: And in John 1, 1, it says, in the beginning was the word, the logos.
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  SPEAKER_00: And because I couldn't just leave it there,
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  SPEAKER_00: I really went and dug into what some of the commentaries said about John 1,
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  1.
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  SPEAKER_00: And I found the following quote that really ties in with why grammar is such a key element for us.
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  SPEAKER_00: The Greek philosophers saw the Logos as the power that put sense into the world,
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  SPEAKER_00: making the world orderly instead of chaotic.
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  SPEAKER_00: The Logos was the power that set the world in perfect order and kept it going in perfect order.
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  SPEAKER_00: They saw the logos as the ultimate reason that controlled all things.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
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  SPEAKER_00: What a perfect place to begin the formal education of our young scholars with the word.
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  SPEAKER_00: Now,
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  SPEAKER_00: grammar level being the first level,
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  SPEAKER_00: dialectic deals mainly with the words in logical reasoning in the context of
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  SPEAKER_00: dialogue and discussion.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's often called the logic level.
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  SPEAKER_00: And the third of the three paths in the trivium is the rhetoric level,
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  SPEAKER_00: which focuses on artfully using the words,
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  SPEAKER_00: the language for communication and persuasion.
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  SPEAKER_00: These three paths all form around language and create really what is the
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  SPEAKER_00: foundational element of the arts or the liberal arts.
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  SPEAKER_00: We will finish up today just by looking at a little bit more detail about the
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_00: origin of the grammar level.
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  SPEAKER_00: Now, these resources, some came from Clark and Jane.
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  SPEAKER_00: Another resource I used was Higher Education of the Ancient World by M.L.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_00: Clark and Ancient Instruction in Grammar According to Quotillion by Kurt von Fritz.
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  SPEAKER_00: Also,
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_00: some mixed in here is research from my doctoral work because I had found this level
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_00: so interesting to see how it progressed through.
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  SPEAKER_00: Looking at it through Quintilian,
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  SPEAKER_00: who was a renowned educator in ancient Rome,
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  SPEAKER_00: he really described in great detail what the grammar level entailed.
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  SPEAKER_00: Actually, it didn't start until after the students were able to read and write in Greek or Latin.
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  SPEAKER_00: And then they would move into the grammar level.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_00: They would focus their learning on literature like Homer and lyrical poetry.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_00: They would use literature to teach proper word usage,
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  SPEAKER_00: vocabulary,
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  SPEAKER_00: immersing them in beautiful,
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  SPEAKER_00: well-written works.
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  SPEAKER_00: Any history or science that was covered actually came out of their interaction with literature.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_00: This is kind of what we would consider the omnibus as students get into logic and rhetoric.
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  SPEAKER_00: It actually was the basis in grammar, too.
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  SPEAKER_00: And rather than telling the students what they would be learning,
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_00: they were just led to discover it bit by bit,
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_00: allowing them time to play with the ideas as they found them in reading and their discussing.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_00: But everything on the grammar level was set to introduce them to words and ideas to
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  SPEAKER_00: do what Clark and Jane said would put them,
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_00: quote,
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  SPEAKER_00: at home in the language.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_00: everything also worked along with memory and imitations.
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  SPEAKER_00: There often was no textbook,
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_00: so the students would actually write out passages and very often would commit them
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  SPEAKER_00: to memory,
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_00: and students would present them as Quintilian described it with
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_00: dignity and charm, which is kind of an awesome way of thinking of presentations by our students.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_00: I happened to run across what their daily routine would look like.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_00: And from what I was reading, this seems to be how their every day went.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_00: They'd start with recitations and
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  SPEAKER_00: They do copy work.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_00: The copy work would be checked and corrected.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_00: The teacher would then teach a passage done mainly through oral discussion.
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  SPEAKER_00: And in that time,
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_00: as they were discussing this literature,
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_00: they would find parts of speech,
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_00: identify rhythm and meter,
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_00: Look at uncommon usage of words, discuss multiple meanings, figures of speech, the beauty of the piece.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_00: This is also where if there was anything historical that they needed to know or
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_00: even scientific that they needed to know,
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_00: it would all be worked into this teaching element.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_00: The class would then be divided up for actual grammar lessons done with questions
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_00: and answers for understanding.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_00: And they would end their day with a time of dictation and the reading of the dictation.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_00: Wow, what a day.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_00: Through an abundance of reading,
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_00: though,
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  SPEAKER_00: according to von Fritz,
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_00: quote,
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_00: their minds were elevated and their morals improved.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_00: That's a challenge when we consider what we're reading today.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_00: That grammar school day looks a whole lot different than our grammar school day,
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_00: but it does bring up some points of discussion.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_00: We'll hold that off for another time completely.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I think rather than wrapping everything up today and pushing through to the end
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_00: of grammar school and what is the goal of grammar school,
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_00: according to Clark and Jane,
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_00: let's just take a pause.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_00: You're coming to the end of a school year if you are listening to this in June.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_00: If you're not, then you are ready to approach what you have left in your year or the start of your year.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_00: But either way, remember, you are impacting your students, not just for today, but for eternity.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_00: And when you're getting overwhelmed or frustrated, remember Psalm 73 26.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_00: My flesh and my heart may fail, but God is the strength of my heart and my portion forever.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_00: So whether you are all in with classical ed,
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_00: or you're just kind of curious,
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_00: or even you just want to be a better teacher,
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_00: I hope you'll stick around and join us for this next podcast.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_00: To get the latest episode,
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_00: as well as a fun little teacher's newsletter,
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_00: complete with a couple of classroom freebies,
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_00: please sign up for the Leading to Wonder newsletter.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_00: Or you can subscribe to the podcast directly on Apple Podcasts or Spotify or wherever you listen.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_00: To learn more about me and Leading to Wonder, you can visit my website at leadingtowonder.com.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_00: No spaces.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_00: And finally,
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_00: to reach out to me directly with questions or comments or even for information
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_00: regarding in-house or virtual teacher training workshops.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_00: feel free to email me at Darlene at leading to wonder.com.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_00: Have an amazing week.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_00: And remember, as E.B.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_00: White said, always be on the lookout for the presence of wonder.