Latest / StartUp Health NOW Podcast / For Victor Penev, Good Leadership Starts With a Healthy Mind

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For Victor Penev, Good Leadership Starts With a Healthy Mind · StartUp Health NOW Podcast

• 0:00
  [on-hold music] During that year, I realized that I have a humongous gaping hole, uh, which is traditionally referred to a god-sized hole, uh, and that I needed something to, to fill it in.
• 0:23
  And so I started, A, sleeping, [clears throat] which just sleeping by eight hours a day, I, I, I lost twenty pounds.
• 0:30
  Uh, then eating a lot more greens, then I went to a detox retreat, uh, and I started doing, um, a lot more e-exploration in meditation and yoga.
• 0:40
  [upbeat music] Welcome to Startup Health Now, the podcast where we celebrate the entrepreneurs and innovators reimagining the future of health. I'm Logan Plaster.
• 0:55
  Quick note for accredited investors before we launch the episode. Last quarter, we launched the Startup Health Moonshots Impact Fund.
• 1:02
  It's a unique rolling fund that makes it easy to gain exposure to a diversified global portfolio of private health innovation companies. Information on the fund and how to start investing is at healthmoonshots.com.
• 1:15
  Now, on to the show. This episode is a conversation with Victor Penev, the CEO and founder of Edamam, which joined Startup Health in twenty thirteen.
• 1:24
  Penev is a leader in the food as medicine movement, this idea that what we eat has an awfully big impact on our health and a range of chronic diseases.
• 1:34
  So with Edamam, Penev built up one of the world's most comprehensive food databases.
• 1:38
  It's a food data API that companies like Amazon, Microsoft, and the Food Network, to name just three, use to deliver more personalized and accurate information to customers.
• 1:49
  But this interview isn't just about food as medicine. We invited Victor onto this fireside chat because of how he thinks.
• 1:56
  Like so many founders, Penev went through a phase with his first startup where he worked all day and he stressed all night. He didn't sleep enough, he gained weight, he was unhealthy and unhappy.
• 2:07
  That led to a crisis moment that opened the door to an entirely new way of thinking, and eventually radically changed how he managed his company.
• 2:15
  In this conversation, we learn how Victor embraced healthy habits, both in body and mind and for his team, while also remaining ambitious and driven in his startup.
• 2:25
  This conversation was hosted by my colleague, Anne Dordi, and was attended by founders from the Startup Health community. Hope you enjoy.
• 2:31
  [upbeat music] To, to kick things off, um, I'll, I'll have Victor, you kind of give us a little bit of background on your personal journey as a, a mindful entrepreneur.
• 2:48
  I think it's, it's really important, um, to, to start from the very beginning, because I know that you, um, you began on, as an entrepreneur with dealing with a lot of stress and a lot of, um, managing those emotions and managing that, that, um, balance between being an entrepreneur and being a, a mindful entrepreneur.
• 3:04
  So I'd love to hear your personal journey, um, to start. Right. Right. Uh, well, thank you, Anne. Um, so first of all, I, I didn't start as a mindful entrepreneur. Uh, that kind of, you know, got built over time.
• 3:18
  Uh, but the story that you're referring to was that, um, that would be probably eleven, twelve years ago.
• 3:25
  Um, I, um, was back in Bulgaria, where I'm now, right now, and I, uh, was leading my last startup, which, uh, you know, we built the largest internet company in Bulgaria, very successful, but it came with tremendous amount of stress.
• 3:41
  Um, you know, I came into the company when it was fifty people. I grew it to a hundred and thirty.
• 3:46
  Um, market leader, constant negotiations, constant hiring, firing, uh, growing the company, uh, and at the same time, I was a single father. I had just divorced, and, uh, I had taken over the care of my son.
• 4:00
  So layer that on top, uh, and I had a life that was a wreck from a health perspective. Uh, I, uh, was probably sleeping five, six hours, and that probably sounds familiar to a lot of, a lot of folks.
• 4:13
  Constantly running a hundred and twenty miles an hour. Uh, constantly, uh, having-- being pulled in different directions to make decisions. Um, and, um, a-as a result, I put a lot of weight.
• 4:25
  I was constantly stressed, uh, started losing hair. You know, the, all the usual signs, physical signs of, of a distressed mind, body. Uh, and luckily, we sold the company.
• 4:37
  Um, so after that, um, you know, I had a year of transition, but I, I took a year off. I took a year off. I came back to the States.
• 4:45
  Uh, and, and during that year, I realized that I have a humongous gaping hole, uh, which is traditionally referred to a god-sized hole, uh, and that I needed something to, to fill it in.
• 4:59
  And so I started, A, sleeping, [clears throat] which just sleeping by eight hours a day, I, I, I lost twenty pounds.
• 5:06
  Uh, then eating a lot more greens, then I went to a detox retreat, uh, and I started doing, um, a lot more e-exploration in meditation and yoga.
• 5:16
  I had been practicing yoga for about ten years, but it was purely that physical Vinyasa/Hatha Western style yoga, and I started dabbling a lot more into, um, the pranayama and meditation aspects of yoga.
• 5:32
  Uh, and little by little, that kind of seeped into my professional life, um, and I found a place where things are very balanced, and I'm happy no matter what. Uh, and it took time.
• 5:44
  Uh, obviously it took time, but, uh, but here we are. And so I'm, I'm happy to, to share that journey. But the story was I was on a, on a course to shorten my life significantly and be very sick.
• 5:57
  And, um, uh, luckily I was, I was able to kind of get hold of that and, and turn it around.Nice.
• 6:05
  So, so I think that, that, you know, you, you sort of touched on, on getting into, um, much more mindful practice and becoming a more balanced entrepreneur.
• 6:14
  But I think that, that it's definitely probably a question that's on, on a lot of entrepreneurs' mind, which is, how do you actually balance that, that,
• 6:22
  you know, staying, uh, calm and relaxed, but also having that mindset necessary to be an entrepreneur, which is, you know, usually quite grueling and, and very, um, very demanding.
• 6:33
  So just curious how you found that, that balance and how you sort of maintain that now. It, it is a mindset, and I know Steve and Unity have kind of hammered into our heads, you know, the whole mindset, uh, approach.
• 6:46
  But it is a mindset. There is nothing that is that urgent.
• 6:50
  Um, you know, if-- I, I've come to a, to a few realizations over my time, is that you can put all your effort into something, uh, and you probably speed it up by five or ten percent, but in the end, it's gonna -- it has its own natural life, its own natural time.
• 7:08
  And all you can do by trying too hard is getting stressed. Uh, and then the other thing is realizing that if you're in for the long haul, you need to have that health.
• 7:22
  You know, if you're running a marathon, you're not sprinting the first kilometer. You kind of have to be, you know, at a even pace, and that just means prioritizing healthy habits.
• 7:31
  You know, prioritizing meditation, prioritizing going to the gym, prioritizing cooking dinner with the family, prioritizing taking vacation, uh, and doing all those things.
• 7:41
  Um, and they don't necessarily interfere with the business. I think that there's a misconception and kind of a little bit of the, the mentality of like, "Oh, yeah, I'm not working too hard.
• 7:50
  I'm not working hard enough and, you know, I'll, I'll get outcompeted."
• 7:53
  The reality is, if you're rested and focused, uh, in, you know, the, the proverbial Tim Ferriss four-hour workday, you know, in four hours you can probably sneak in twelve hours of stressed work.
• 8:05
  And so, um, that's kind of the, the realization. And it comes down to practice. I mean, I think a lot of people have heard that and said, "Yeah, right."
• 8:12
  Uh, but, you know, once you have the realization, it is really practicing it and making it happen, and then when it becomes a habit, it becomes easy, and then you realize, yeah, it's true.
• 8:22
  So don't know if I answered the question, but, um, but I guess it comes down to you gotta, you gotta do it. You gotta do it.
• 8:28
  [chuckles] It's def-- Yeah, it's, it's about finding that, finding that balance and, and maintain. It sounds like consistency in the, in the mindset is really key, making sure that it's a daily practice.
• 8:38
  Um, and o-on that kind of note, you mentioned a couple of things that I think you know, you talked about meditation and cooking dinner with your family.
• 8:45
  Um, what are some of your, uh, what are some of the other daily habits, daily healthy habits that you really, you know, focus on, on prioritizing? Yeah. Yeah.
• 8:53
  I mean, look, I can -- I, I think probably most helpful would be to run it through one of my days. Yeah. Uh, and because they don't differ. And, and I, I have a somewhat unusual approach.
• 9:04
  I don't take weekends to be that different than weekdays. Uh, I rest every day and, you know, I, I work every day. Uh, and I, I enjoy my work.
• 9:13
  So, um, uh, on weekends, obviously there are social, uh, demands and I -- the, the schedule is slightly different, but I do the same things that are related to mindfulness every day. So get up early in the morning.
• 9:26
  I usually get up four thirty, five. Um, take a cold shower, have an hour of meditation.
• 9:33
  Um, and then I, before I start work, I, you know, make a couple, cup of green tea, um, and kind of slowly start becoming aware of the day.
• 9:43
  You know, I usually, if, if the sun is right and I have the luxury of living in Los Angeles where I get to see sun-sunrises, um, and, um, get exposed to, to sunlight.
• 9:55
  Uh, and then that takes about an hour and a half to two hours of my day.
• 9:58
  And you know, a lot of people may think this is, this is crazy, but that gets you set in such a mindset to work that when I get to work, uh, which is usually about ninety minutes to two hours, not more, um, like about sixty to ninety minutes, and I, I make sure I get up every thirty to forty minutes, walk around, uh, walk outside.
• 10:17
  I have, I have a backyard, which is very nice. But, um, and do any, any of those things. Um, uh, but have very concentrated sixty to ninety minutes.
• 10:26
  Um, and then around ten thirty, eleven, I'll, I'll go and, and work out. Um, you know, do either run on the beach, go to the gym, swim, whatever it is, that is a peak time for me to work out.
• 10:37
  I, you know, other people work out at different times, but I do make sure I do physical activity. Um, then, um, make lunch and, and get back to another bout of work, which kind of lasts until five PM.
• 10:52
  And then usually at that time, my son's back home from, from school. Uh, and I love cooking. I mean, that's why I started that amount, you know.
• 11:00
  So, um, I, I have a, you know, between five and seven, cook, um, eat, eat dinner with the family, chat and whatnot, and maybe I will check email around six thirty, seven.
• 11:14
  But normally I try to be done with, with work by six PM. So in reality, I work probably five hours fully, but a very focused five hours, and I have found that to be enough.
• 11:27
  Um, compared to days that I used to work very, very hard, the, the output of my workday is similar, even though I work only those five, four or five hours.
• 11:37
  So the daily habits, I mean, meditation, working out, um, standing up every hour, you know, eating, you know, lunch and dinner and, and breakfast, uh, you know. And I do a little bit of intermittent fasting.
• 11:51
  I leave at least twelve hours, but you can still kind of prepare delicious food, which is, you know, um, food not just for the body, but for the, for the mind and the soul. So those are, those are some of the habits.
• 12:02
  Um, and I do a lot of biohacking, so I inter-- you know, every week I may be trying or a month maybe trying different things, but this is kind of the steady... uh, habit of my, of my day.
• 12:14
  Uh, and, and that happens on weekends as well. Nice. So, so I, I think that, you know, the way you structure your day is, is clearly very balanced and, um, I imagine it wasn't like that previously.
• 12:25
  As you mentioned, you know, you were working crazy hours before. Um, so, so how did you incrementally get from, you know- Right...
• 12:32
  A to point B, where you are now very mindful, very, uh, you know, cognizant of when you're working and when you're off. Um, how did you really take those steps to get to where you are now? Yeah.
• 12:43
  So i- it does sound, you know, if you, uh, if I were me 10 years ago to where I'm now, be like, "No way. I can't do that change."
• 12:52
  [chuckles] Uh, the reality is like any behavior change, and, and a lot of the folks here are probably grappling with, um, you know, how do we do behavior change?
• 13:00
  Um, a lot of the behavior change, it starts with one thing at a time.
• 13:04
  You know, you change one habit at a time, and then work at it three, four, six months, whatever it is, until it becomes an ingrained habit, and then you change another habit. And it's not like I had a plan, you know.
• 13:15
  I did, "Those are the habits I'm gonna change, and I'm gonna work the first six months on that, and the next six months on that." It just kind of naturally happens.
• 13:22
  Uh, I was lucky to start with probably what I think would be the most important thing, which is sleep.
• 13:27
  Um, and, and just say, "Look, I need to sleep eight hours, and it's gonna be my top priority [chuckles] no matter what.
• 13:34
  I'm gonna be in bed, I'm gonna be sleeping for eight hours," which actually means being in bed nine hours, nine and a half hours for me.
• 13:41
  Um, and, um, and, and once that became a habit, uh, and it started, um, you know, picking up, uh, different habits around eating, I s- you know, put a lot more greens. I changed my diet.
• 13:54
  But, you know, it was incremental learning and studying, you know, different ways to cook that are, uh, a lot more health promoting. One thing at a time. Um, you know, meditation I started with...
• 14:06
  The first meditation course was transcendental meditation, 20 minutes. If people have done it, they know. I, you know, uh, used to do 10 minutes.
• 14:13
  Um, so now I do an hour to an hour and a half, uh, without even thinking about it, but obviously you start with something small. Uh, and just be consistent, you know.
• 14:23
  I missed only two days of meditation in the last 10 years, so... And I, I know the, the exact two dates. [chuckles] So... That's...
• 14:33
  Wow, that's, that's shocking, and I think, you know, con- that, that consistency is very admirable.
• 14:38
  I think, you know, there's few things that I've been able to c- accomplish and, and s- and do every day for the last, you know, 10 years, so that's very incredible. Um, so
• 14:48
  I think that, you know, at least for myself, I, I would imagine a, quite a lot of other entrepreneurs who are kind of envious of this, um, a lot of people wanna have these habits.
• 14:56
  A lot of people wanna be, you know, not just healthier, but more mindful, more, um, I think efficient and productive with their time, which you clearly have gotten to.
• 15:08
  Um, so but they often don't change, and a lot of these people don't actually take those steps to, um, to, to get themselves to the point that you're at now. Why do you think that is? Well,
• 15:22
  for the obvious reason, change is hard, you know? Uh, and we are creatures of habit, and it's very easy to fall back into the grooves of the habits that you know, and that feel familiar.
• 15:35
  Uh, and, and shifting to a new habit, it requires effort. You know? It requires actual expenditure of energy, which [chuckles]
• 15:44
  you know, us being, you know, trying to optimize our metabolic, you know, expenditure of energy and not trying to, to do any of those things, any change is very hard to, um, to do.
• 15:57
  And so that's why it is important to do small changes, right? Something that doesn't require that much effort. Um, there is a guy, maybe some of you have read his book, called James Clear.
• 16:07
  He's got something called Atomic Habits, and he's got a very good kind of method of, okay, how do you change your life? You know, how... What are the small, little increments that you can do to change your life?
• 16:19
  Um, and, and, and I think if you have that approach, then it becomes easy, but the, the basic reason why people don't do it is just hab- changing habits is difficult.
• 16:28
  And sort of taking a step back and looking a little bit larger at, um, the, the industry as a whole, um, I, I'm curious what you think, um, looking ahead, where health and nutrition is going in the future, and, and may that be, you know, personally as well as, um, professionally and w- within, you know, a pr- professional working, um, uh, like, working space, what your, what your thoughts are there.
• 16:52
  Yeah. Well, that, that's a very open-ended question, so [chuckles] uh, uh, let me, let me give you my dream, um, and which I've, I've spoken about, uh, quite, quite at length before. But
• 17:05
  I basically believe that people can live to 120 at the very least, um, without chronic conditions, without mental illness, without stress, um, happy, fulfilled lives.
• 17:15
  Um, and I believe that food is an important element of that. It's, it's, you know, lifestyle in general, but food is a very important element of that. And, and, and so what I, what I hope will happen, and I...
• 17:28
  It's not gonna be easy, and it's probably gonna take longer than I think, but what I hope would happen is we end up, um, in a place where humanity as a whole has a lot more mindful agricultural practices.
• 17:40
  So we, we, we think about regenerative agriculture, uh, that, um, you know, carbon capture, healthy soil with microorganisms that fill our food with micronutrients that have been depleted.
• 17:53
  Um, we have mindful way to distribute food, uh, and prepare it in a way that it doesn't get wasted.
• 18:00
  You know, 30, 40% of food currently gets wasted, uh, thrown out, um, by households that don't cook it, by restaurants that don't sell, by grocery stores. Uh, and there is, there are technologies to do that.
• 18:13
  So, um, you know, in the-Kind of the vein of mindfulness, I think there is mindfulness to be brought to that element, and, and that obviously will help climate as a whole.
• 18:23
  Um, and I think that the last element is mindful eating. You know, eat to nourish yourself. Uh, so a- a- and not, I'm not fan of, of, of diets and whatnot.
• 18:33
  I, I believe that, you know, people that go to extremes and say, "Oh, I'm gonna be keto for the rest of my life.
• 18:38
  I'm gonna be vegan for the rest of my life," and there might be good reasons why you do that, uh, and I'm not saying that's not the right choice, but, but I think being mindful of why you do it and stick with it and being open to change is a, is an important thing.
• 18:52
  And I think mindful eating habits will be ultimately, together with a, you know, food full of nutrients that is, you know, delivered at the right time, and it's fresh, uh, and it doesn't get wasted, will get us to a place where we, uh, as a humanity will have just longer health spans.
• 19:11
  Um, and that's, that's kind of my dream, and I, I don't know if I answered the open-ended question, but that's, that's what I hope, uh, and that's what we're building towards at Edamame and, uh, with, with everybody else that is in that, in that space.
• 19:25
  Yeah. That's, I mean, that's, that's phenomenal. I think, uh, I, I know recently there have been a, a quite a few new companies popping up that are focused on eliminating food waste, and so it's definitely sort of...
• 19:35
  You see things moving in that direction. Hopefully, it'll be, you know, at a faster pace and, and get there on the, on the timeline that you outlined. But hopefully. Yeah.
• 19:44
  Unless, unless we boil ourselves before that, but that is, uh, it, I, I think we're kind of in that race that we gotta get to being- Mm-hmm... a changed consciousness of humanity at large scale.
• 19:56
  [laughs] Sort of because otherwise we'll... And I, I don't like to pontificate, but, you know, all the evidence is that, you know, the way the temperatures are rising, we might, we might end up with, [laughs]
• 20:08
  uh, with a significant amount of humanity being really badly impacted. So hopefully, that will come sooner rather than later. Fingers crossed. I'm, I'm definitely, um, on your side on that one.
• 20:18
  I think it's a huge, important issue, and our healthcare is massively going to be affected by, by that as well. So it's, it's, um, it's all kind of intertwined.
• 20:27
  You can't really have one, um, one aspect of the world, the climate fail and then expect everything else to maintain. So, um- Yeah... definitely, definitely see that perspective.
• 20:36
  Um, so kind of bringing it back to, to sort of Edamame and your personal leadership style, curious, um, how do you take the, the healthy habits that you've established and sort of work that into your leadership style?
• 20:51
  And then additionally, how that sort of reflects in how you care for your employees. Uh, so there are a couple aspects. You know, I, I don't make anyone do anything they don't want to do.
• 21:07
  So that's, that's one, one thing. And, and, you know, work with the employees is working with, um... And I'm, I don't even like the, the classification of employer and employees.
• 21:19
  I think it's necessary for tax purposes [laughs] and, you know, payroll and, and so on and so forth. But, but the reality is, you know, we truly accompany, you know, try and solve problems and, um, and so, uh,
• 21:35
  that is the ethos when we come, uh, to the workday. Now, obviously, I want to be mindful of the personal lives of my employees, and so I know them all by name. I know their wives. I know their kids.
• 21:47
  I know where they go on vacation. I know what they do, uh, and it's almost like treating them like friends.
• 21:54
  And in reality, they are friends, uh, except, you know, we are friends that are trying to solve a problem, uh, a specific problem with, with technology.
• 22:02
  And so that is kind of the, the approach I've brought, uh, towards everyone in the company. And we come together.
• 22:10
  You know, we had, uh, one of our, uh, engineers got really sick with COVID, uh, and we kind of gathered all resources trying to figure out, you know, how to get transportation, you know, how to get him in the hospital, how to get everything done.
• 22:22
  That was a teamwork, you know? And we just kind of care about one, uh, one another, and I think that's kind of the ethos that was built into the company. And I really enjoy because ultimately, if we don't have,
• 22:37
  um, beautiful human relationships, you know, everything that we do is kind of, feels hypocritical. [laughs] You know? We're trying to, to help other folks, but we're not being nice to each other.
• 22:47
  We're not being kind to each other. So, um, th- that is, in day-to-day practice, that means, you know, just really asking them personal questions. "Are you okay? Uh, what's going on with your life?"
• 22:59
  You know, uh, and, and then once you ask it enough, people start being a lot more open and just say, "Look, today I'm not feeling well," or, "I got in a quarrel with my kid, and I need to take the day off just to, you know, you know, blow off some steam," and, and whatnot, and completely understandable.
• 23:14
  So, um, and that's, that's kind of the, the ethos, and that's the, uh, I guess what you might call mindful approach to managing workers.
• 23:23
  And also, if I had to let go people, because I had to, you know, for financial reasons, not because I, um, you know, they didn't do their jobs and whatnot, but, you know, you do it in a way that you explain kindly.
• 23:37
  You give them enough time to find a new place, support them in finding a new job and whatnot.
• 23:42
  And the two employees that I had to let go, um, at, at some point because we pivoted the company, and I don't need their service anymore and whatnot, we're still very good friends. You know, we go out. We have lunches.
• 23:54
  We have drinks, uh, all that stuff so. I love, love to hear that.
• 23:59
  Um, I, I think that, you know, finding that balance of, of treating your, um, team like friends and family but also making sure that you are communicating openly with them and, you know, having those conversations as early as possible is, is, um, something that I think everyone can, can strive to, um, accomplish.
• 24:16
  So we have a, a chat, a, a question in the chat. Do you use any specific apps or resources to support your practices?Uh, the direct answer is no. Mm-hmm. Uh, and it's because over time I have
• 24:32
  accumulated a lot of different techniques and resources, and I don't feel I need, uh, the, the helper wheels or the, the crutches to, to, to move forward.
• 24:41
  I think apps are great if you're starting off, uh, in a particular direction and you wanna practice breathwork, or you want to get into hypnosis, or you wanna do meditation, uh, and so on and so forth. Uh, that's great.
• 24:55
  Um, I think one thing that I've kept constant is being voracious about learning new things. I don't stick to one particular technique.
• 25:04
  Um, although some techniques I've, I've done for two or three years, uh, but I do mix them. I, I try different things. Um, and then at some point, you, you start knowing yourself very well.
• 25:15
  You know what works, and it al- almost like you kind of adjust it day by day. That being said, if you Mm-hmm... looking for apps, um, couple of apps that I can recommend, um, um, is Waking Up by Sam Harris.
• 25:29
  Uh, yes, Waking Up app by Sam Harris.
• 25:32
  Um, and it's not only that he m- leads kind of a basic introductory course to meditation, but he has a w- he invites a lot of folks that have different approaches, like from Koan to the Headless Way to open awareness and so on and so forth.
• 25:48
  So you get to learn from the best experts in every area meditation technique. So I would recommend that app for meditation. Um, I, uh, think tracking your sleep is a very important thing. I do it with an Oura Ring.
• 26:03
  So that's an app I use actually. Um, um, I would recommend the Oura Ring. Uh, but, um, you know, you can do just basic, you know, when I go to bed, when I wake up, you know, journal or, or something of that sort.
• 26:17
  There's, uh, apps that, that track based on your breath, breathing, um, patterns and so on and so forth. So I would recommend one of those.
• 26:25
  Um, I don't know them personally, but, you know, the Oura Ring is, is great for tracking your sleep.
• 26:29
  The other thing that I, um, have learnt recently and I wanna delve into is called, uh, an app called Reveri, which is a hypnosis app. Uh, which is, um, a new thing that I haven't done. I've, I've, you know, I've done
• 26:44
  without intent hy- hypnotic states. Um, and I, I practice lucid dreaming. Um, you know, so I've, I've delved into, into that space. But hypnosis is interesting to me. So Reveri is the, the name of the app.
• 26:58
  It's, um, it's free. Um, I would, you know, say go try it. Uh, and then other things are like yog- yoga nidra, um, gong, [laughs] and there is, I'm sure for all of those, there's a million apps out there.
• 27:13
  Um, there's none, none particular that I, that I use. Um, but I think if you kind of start exploring and, and learning, you are finding what works best for you.
• 27:24
  Looking at your, your global perspective, um, you know, you are in Bulgaria right now, and you're, you know, you've definitely been very well traveled as well.
• 27:31
  Curious how that perspective has impacted you and impacted your, your mindfulness as well. Hmm. I- interesting question.
• 27:42
  So if you asked that question of me 10 years ago, I probably would've said, "Well, it's added a lot," you know, because I've been so many cultures, I've done deals in so many cultures.
• 27:53
  There was a previous job that I did, corporate job, where I had to deal and actually sign deals in 40 different cultures from, you know, China to Brazil to Germany to South Africa and whatnot. Um, and that felt like
• 28:11
  a, a very important thing that I've added in my kind of, uh, instrumentarium. Uh, but looking at it now, I just see that as an ego trip, you know?
• 28:23
  Okay, well, I've, I've done a bunch of things, but have I really added anything, uh, that, that makes me grow as a person and be helpful to other folks?
• 28:32
  'Cause ultimately, that's, to me, life c- comes down to two things, you know? Being present at every moment fully, and then being helpful to other folks. Um, and so
• 28:43
  I've come to realization over the last 10 years through the, through the practices that I've done that you don't need to go anywhere to be everywhere, you know?
• 28:51
  Y- really, your internal world is as big and even bigger sometimes than the external world, than, you know, all the universe that we see. And so you can explore without going anywhere.
• 29:04
  So to some extent, it's kind of, uh, yeah, great, [laughs] I've traveled, I have, um, all those experiences. But you come back to the realization, well, it's one Earth, everybody's the same, uh, person anyway.
• 29:17
  And if you treat everyone the same way and hopefully try to help everyone everywhere, um, things are gonna work out, and that's kind of my attitude now. Uh, open to change.
• 29:27
  I don't know what's gonna happen, but that's kind of my attitude now. Yeah. Open to change. I, I like that. I think, you know, there's a, uh, a massive, uh, I think
• 29:39
  need or, or sort of, uh, perspective that the, the new perspective now is that this global perspective is, is the sort of standard. And, and a lot of people need to be
• 29:50
  dealing across borders and, and traveling internationally. And, um, I think also in the last year or so, a lot of people have sort of put that pressure on as well.
• 29:58
  I feel like I, I think the perspective that everyone's human, and as long as you understand that, the need for, for having that global impact and, and, um, global reach is a little bit unnecessary as long as you- you're conscious of the fact that a human is a human, and they deserve to be treated with kindness and empathy and, um, to be helped.
• 30:19
  I think that that's, that's a, a- Yeah... perspective that you don't necessarily hear from, um, from a lot of people that are, you know, more- Yeah.
• 30:27
  I think you also need to bring a very healthy dose of humility- Mm-hmm...
• 30:32
  because, uh, whether we are mindful of that or not, we're, um, you know-Super privileged group of folks that can travel, uh, and in the eyes of big chunk of humanity, we are the global elite, you know, the, the oppressors, the one percenters, the, the people that, you know, live the jet lag life and, and whatnot.
• 30:55
  And, and so i- and that sometimes, you know, you start believing those things.
• 31:02
  [laughs] So bringing a healthy do- dose of humility and just saying, "Look, you know, I'm just trying to be helpful," uh, and, and, and approach that and, and, you know, it's a, it's a balance 'cause ultimately social change does occur, uh, and I'm very curious of how that's all gonna play out.
• 31:19
  Globalization versus localization. Global elites. You know, I mean, these days I think people in London, New York, and Hong Kong have more in common than, you know, um, uh- Yeah... people in...
• 31:31
  [laughs] Yeah, there, there's no- there, there's no difference than i- you know, England or, you know, China or, or the US, you know?
• 31:39
  So, um, that global perspective is inevitable, but to some extent, it, it brings its own problems. So I think humility is very important. Oh, so kind of touching on, on humility, I think that, um,
• 31:52
  humility is a very important quality when it comes to leadership in general. I think that it's sometimes not necessarily seen that way, but curious, um, who are some of your leadership examples, both good and bad?
• 32:06
  Who, who is someone you look at and say, "This is what I've sort of strived to be as CEO of, of Edamame," and who, who was someone you looked at and said, "This is the exact type of leader that I do not wanna be and do not strive to be"?
• 32:18
  Yeah. Well, [laughs] strangely enough, there, there will not be any people in business, um, you know. So, uh, I think if I take,
• 32:29
  um, as example historic figures that have done something, those will be the, the, the folks like Gandhi and Martin Luther King and Jesus Christ and Buddha and whatnot, folks that have come and, uh, and said, "Look,
• 32:45
  I wanna help a lot of people, and I'm gonna do it because I have firm belief, and I'm gonna abide by certain principles," whether it's like, you know, Satyagraha, non-violence, or, you know, love or whatever it is.
• 32:59
  Those are the people that I actually, whose actions and attitudes and approach to life and, and interaction with folks I, I try to bring to my daily life into, into business.
• 33:10
  Um, so I- i- it's not anyone that I can point to. And, and I'm sure there's millions of examples of folks in the business world, I just probably don't know enough about them.
• 33:21
  But, uh, they're definitely not the Mark Zuckerbergs and the Elon Musks of the world. Um, so... [laughs] I had a feeling those, those names might come up as a, as a no.
• 33:30
  They definitely are of a very s- They're phenomenal people, and I, I, I do admire them, uh, y- you know, for, for their vision, for their ability to execute, for the change that they're making, uh, but the approach they have is not the approach I value personally in my life, and, uh...
• 33:49
  And, and ultimately it comes down to, um, you know, h- where do you find meaning and h- where do you find happiness, so... That's very, very good.
• 33:58
  Um, yeah, they definitely seem to have slightly different priorities when it comes to their, their businesses and their personal lives and their, their companies. I, I don't know them. I mean, oh- [laughs] Yeah...
• 34:06
  the principle of re- you know, uh, for all I know, they, you know, Elon Musk can be, you know, Mother Teresa. I just don't know it. [laughs] Who knows? We'll, we'll never know.
• 34:15
  Maybe, maybe one day if any of us meets, we can report back and, and, and let everyone know.
• 34:20
  Um, so looking at, at the sort of, um, healthy habits you've established, are there any healthy habits that you sort of experimented with, um, that maybe you, you didn't necessarily fit, um, felt like were a fit for your lifestyle?
• 34:35
  Um, and then what's the process of experimenting with these new habits and, um, how would you maybe encourage your fellow entrepreneurs to, to get started in experimenting with, with new healthy habits? Yeah. Uh, gosh.
• 34:50
  Uh, there's a lot that didn't make it, uh, and simply because, um, there's only so many things you can do in life and, and ultimately I don't believe in too many things that complicate.
• 35:02
  So I try to reduce every habit to the bare minimum. Uh, and sometimes you do things that you put away in your instrumentarium and come back to them. You know, uh, I used to have a fairly active breathwork, um,
• 35:17
  everyday, uh, practice, which I've kind of put on the back burner now, and I do occasionally breathwork. Um, so it's not that, that I've given it up, it just, it's not something that I need right now. Um,
• 35:31
  I think the way to... Uh, the way I approach it, and I don't know if that's the way and everybody's different, but the way I approach it is I'm truly voracious about learning new ways to experiment with the,
• 35:45
  the, what, what only I, I see as a system of mind, body, and spirit. Like, you know, it's, it's one thing, and everything that you do impacts everything else.
• 35:53
  You know, you can, with your focus on your body, with your breath or with a physical exercise, you can change your mind.
• 35:59
  You can, [laughs] you can change your attitude i- in, in, in your spiritual space and, and vice versa. You know, in meditation you can change your body, you can change the, the biochemistry, um, and so on and so forth.
• 36:11
  So finding what works for you, uh, is great, and there is all kinds of things from the natural, you know, get exposed to, you know, sunlight, uh, to, you know, more kind of modern, you know, infrared saunas and cryotherapy and, you know, supplementation with either natural, you know, or herbs that have been known for ages like bacopa or, uh, whatnot or, you know, modulated pills that, um, that folks have extracted from various plants and, and whatnot.
• 36:44
  I do it allJust because I'm curious, uh, and I experiment of how things do, uh, uh, how my body reacts, my mind reacts, my spirit reacts, uh, I've gotten to know myself fairly well.
• 36:57
  I can fairly quickly evaluate if something's gonna work for me or not. Um, and then, uh, if it does, I try to fit it in the schedule. And if it doesn't, obviously, uh, I drop it out.
• 37:07
  And at some point, if I have too many things in the day, obviously they fill up too much space, then I drop a few things.
• 37:14
  Um, um, but, you know, I went through my day, the, the non-negotiables are, uh, you know, meditation, exercise, sunlight, eight hours of sleep, so [chuckles] Definitely. I think, uh, over COVID, I think there was a huge
• 37:30
  change in people's m-mental health and mindset because I think quite a few of those very important ones, exercise and sunlight, were cut out. A lot of people didn't get outside.
• 37:40
  I mean, I, I can say that from a, a New York perspective, didn't really leave the house for a couple days on end, which is very, I think, detrimental.
• 37:48
  And I think that, you know, the fact that you've gotten to the practice of, um, being conscious of that is, is really incredible.
• 37:56
  I, I think a lot of people take for granted that, um, they need to be outside, they need to be exercising, and they need to be, um, taking care of themselves.
• 38:05
  And I think that when you think about it and you take that proactive stance of, you know, checking yourself and making sure to, um, to, to stay on top of your, your own needs is, is gonna take-- make that big change.
• 38:19
  Yeah. But part of mind, mindfulness is being present, and being present is being aware of where you are and how do you feel.
• 38:27
  And, you know, I have fine-tuned that to the extent that if something is bothering me, if it's very slight, I immediately notice it and try to find a cause, and it's, it's usually some kind of a fear or desire.
• 38:40
  Um, you know, in that i-i-in Buddhism, that those are the two things that kind of, you know, lead you to get attached to, to the material world. But, and, you know, a practice to just kind of let it go.
• 38:51
  Uh, but, you know, that's mindfulness. That's being present and just kind of knowing yourself. Uh, and that's not something that... It, it just comes with practice. Yeah.
• 39:00
  You just have to do it and, you know, do it and then fail and fail and fail and fail and fail, and I fail at it hundreds of times every day.
• 39:08
  But, you know, the, the times that I actually notice something and change it, that's, that's great that it works.
• 39:13
  And, and so that keeps you in that centered space of not too excited, not too upset, and of being non-attached and, and really present and, and happy. I mean, there's no other word for it.
• 39:25
  It's joy and happiness, you know, of just being.
• 39:28
  Um, do you have any books or articles or resources that you think would be a good place, place for entrepreneurs to start who are, you know, hoping to, to become more mindful, giving themselves, you know, um, clear guidelines on, on where to, where to begin?
• 39:44
  I think it would be great to get a sense of where you started, just so we can give those recommendations to other entrepreneurs. Right. Well, I can take... Look, I-- there are a lot of books. Yeah.
• 39:54
  If you want to, it, it's a, it's a rabbit hole. Um, so I generally listen to a book every week, and they usually kinda be that, that vein. Um, and, um, so there's, there's way too many. Depends on where you wanna start.
• 40:09
  My personal journey in the mindfulness started with transcendental meditation, which then, uh, switched to kundalini yoga, which I got certified into.
• 40:18
  And then, uh, I came across a course by, um, um, Jeffrey, what's his last name now? Um, that, um, um, basically gets you to awakening.
• 40:31
  It, it, it's seventeen different techniques, um, handpicked, the top hits from around the world of people who have gotten enlightened.
• 40:40
  Uh, and he's got phenomenal-- He's got a scientific approach to it, but he, he claims scientifically, and he's got a way to measure it, that seventy percent taking that course have gotten enlightened.
• 40:51
  Now, uh, enlightenment is a very loaded term, uh, but I do believe that you get to a place where, where things are okay, um, and, um, and, and every once in a while you get to a place where everything is one. Uh, uh, so
• 41:08
  forget what his name, uh, the, the course that he teaches now is called Forty-Five Days to Awakening. Uh, I think that I would recommend that. Um, you know, there are places, sp-specifically, there are
• 41:20
  people that aggregate information. Um, you know, there are apps that I listen to, like Awareness Explorer.
• 41:29
  They're, they're purely scientific apps, um, that I'm, I'm listening to, um, including Andrew Huberman and Peter Attia and whatnot, and they're more kind of medical.
• 41:40
  Um, but, but those will be ones that, um, uh, they're podcasts, sorry. Um, those would be the ones I, I would mention. Um, Awareness Explorer.
• 41:50
  Sounds True is, um, is a place where a lot of the kind of meditation, mindfulness folks end up. Um, uh, you know, depends on-- I mean, there's so many ways you can, you, you can go.
• 42:04
  Um, you know, Sam Harris that I mentioned i-is great. You know, Adyashanti, somebody that I, that I like. Um, you know, there's so, so many different ones. So I, I struggle to recommend a specific
• 42:19
  course or book because everybody's different. Um, but those are the things. And then if you s- if you wanna just do lifestyle, I mean, there, there are basic things around nutrition.
• 42:29
  Um, you know, uh, Why We Sleep I think is a great book by, uh, forget his first name, but Walker, he's in Berkeley. Um,
• 42:38
  excellent book of just understanding the basics of sleep and why you should do it and how to do it and what are the, the biohacks, you know, temperature in the room, and when you eat food and, you know, when you drink coffee and alcohol and all that stuff.
• 42:50
  That's-Uh, that's a great book. Um, what else? Um, in terms of food, uh, there's a couple.
• 42:59
  Um, Steven Gundry is one, um, that has written a book around nutrition, uh, although he's become a little bit too commercial, uh, peddling too many supplements.
• 43:09
  Uh, there is, um, uh, another person whose name now escapes me, but he manages nutrition facts, and he's very pro plant-based, uh, but again, very scientific based. So, um,
• 43:23
  really it's a rabbit hole, and there's no shortage of places to, um, to go and find information. Uh, I think you just pick one and start there. And whatever interests you, you know.
• 43:35
  Start with a basic meditation, um, find one person out, and then just be curious about finding somebody else and, and ask around. Um, and so yeah, those are the things.
• 43:48
  I mean, right now I'm doing a meditation series called Ascension Techniques, which is very esoteric, um, very kind of, you know, very few people do it.
• 43:57
  I have a personal teacher, which I meet every two weeks, uh, and so on and so forth, but I wouldn't have found that person before having done [laughs], you know, ten or twelve different teachers before that and, and having gotten to a place where I'm ready.
• 44:10
  And a saying goes, "The guru, the guru shows up when you're ready for, for, for him or her." And so I think just start on the path, put the first foot, and then put the next foot, and then you'll get there.
• 44:24
  [outro jingle] Thanks for listening to Startup Health NOW. Startup Health invests in health transformers from around the world who are committed to achieving audacious health moonshots.
• 44:38
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• 44:46
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