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What I've Learnt - Deborah Conway · WHAT I'VE LEARNT

• 0:05
  SPEAKER_01: I'd like to welcome my next guest, Deborah Conway.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_01: Brimming with raw talent, beauty, and a fierce intellect, the winner of the 2019 National Live Music Awards Living Legend, and edging close to 40 years in the music industry, singer's songwriter Deborah Conway has created the soundtrack to many of our lives.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_01: From her massive success with the band DoroMe, supporting Legends, Culture Club, Simple Minds, and UB40 in the 90s, to her incredible 40-year partnership with the love of her life, husband Willie Ziggier, she's an Australian icon.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_01: Together they have produced more than 10 albums, four concert series, three children, and countless live shows and concert tours.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_01: Deborah has inspired a generation with her passion, authenticity, and stellar summing.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_01: So sit back, relax with Athena GMT, and let's get into it.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_01: That was really a good place for us to start because I think what you've done your whole life is you've sort of adapted, pivoted, done what you need to do, really from a very solid, authentic core.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_01: That's how I see you, and I love that about you.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that to me, when you when I saw that go up, I thought, that's very Deborah Conway.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_01: Very, you know, pull the family together, all the talent, you know, and just it was really beautiful.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_01: And really it came from from a place that I think you come from, which is authentic, you you're very loyal, you're very committed, you're very family-oriented.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_01: And you're also good at um being retrospective.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_01: So you'll go back and pick up a beautiful song like that and out it goes into the world.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_01: Do you think that isolation series was a little bit of you trying to say, listen, we're here on our own terms, basically.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_01: Oh well.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_00: It's way, way, way too late for anybody to tell me what to do.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_00: That's just funny.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but uh so that we were, you know, the Australian it was the Australian newspaper that um that uh that approached Decentra McMillan's music um section and they they put that that isolation program together.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_00: We were the first cap off the rack that was you know, he he just he just rang me and said, Look, I've I've got this idea, and you know, I think it'd be really good if we could ask people to to do this.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_00: And have you got suggestions for people you you know you think would be good at this?
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_00: And uh so it was all it was really was really first steps.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_00: It was nice of him that you know he came to me first, and so you know, and I obviously I suggested a lot a lot of people and I and I s and then we and I thought we'll be really nice to to put this together with the girls.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, and so the girls obviously knew the song.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I know.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_00: Oh yeah, we love it.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_01: We really love it, it's a good song.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_01: You did a great rendition, I must say.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_00: Lyrically, lyrically very um, lyrically very pertinent, sorry.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_01: So, so Deb, so in terms of your um how you're managing at home, you I mean, first of all, you're all musicians, so really this is your mainstay.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_01: And what's your perspective on what what have you, you know, have you guys all sat around and thought, well, I mean, obviously there's some funding injection and there's some support from local and federal government, but at the end of the day, it's a question of how you sustain.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I mean, this year's been so surreal.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_01: Is it is it something how have you talked as a family and as musicians and professionals about how to move forward in this climate?
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_00: I I I'm not um I'm not concerned for Willie and I.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, we are we're at the other end of our career, really.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, not that I'm intending to retire particularly, but there's there's lots of avenues for us that um that that still exist because we're established and because people, you know, if they want to find us, they know where to find us.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_00: I'm much more concerned about the younger generation and not just my daughters, like everybody.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it it's absolutely dreadful.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_00: They've really they've really sacrificed the younger generation on on a monolithic scale.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's an unspeakable disaster, to be honest, the way that's been handled.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_00: But anyway, I mean I have no idea how when venues will open again and that will allow my daughters to be able to perform.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_00: My my youngest daughter is at the VCA trying to finish third year.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_00: She hasn't been to school since it's March.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's a it is a completely musical course where she dances and prances and sings and acts and blah, blah, blah.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, and she's down to like, you know, she was at at school for nine to five, at least five to days a week.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_00: She'd often go in on weekends too, because she's pretty diligent.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_00: And it's all gone since March.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_00: You know, and that just that that affects a person.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_00: And it's uh, and it's not just her.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you know, there's this is a widespread kind of where they're all going nuts.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, I think about to when I was 20, I was going, I was going wild.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_00: We were wild.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_00: We had so much fun unconstrained.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_00: So unconstrained.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_00: And then and now this is just um, yeah, I don't know.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_00: I I I can't, I don't um I think.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_01: So what do you teach your kids?
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_01: So what do you so what are you what are you drawing on yourself?
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_01: Like I'm in a similar boat to you.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_01: I have three children very similar age, um, one who's a musician.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm just interested how what are you passing on to them?
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_01: How are you equipping them?
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_01: Because, you know, there are a lot of people that say, well, this teaches them resilience.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, we get that, but at the end of the day, um what tools are you giving them or talking about?
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you've had challenges in your life, as have I, we've had a long journey.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um really, we have to dig deep and say, well, this is how you need to cope or you know, help them to find resources that I suppose we've all had to find at different times in life.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_01: This is a this is a doozy, though.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_01: This is a particularly surreal, dystopian version of life.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, no, no, I'm agreed.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_00: Look, uh, they're busy, they're doing stuff, you know.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_00: Uh Alma's making Alma's um working as a nanny, so that's you know, that takes up quite a bit of a day, a few of her days.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_00: But she's also recording, so she's making an album or a series of songs.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_00: It's not as it's not really an album because it'll they call it an AP now.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_00: Or whatever it is, it'll go up on camp and photographs platforms.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_00: So she's really she's really occupied.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um Hetty is um she's you know, gets a project every now and again, and she's also she's working, doing some retailing, you know, in a food mart kind of thing.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um and uh, you know, I look, I what do I tell them?
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_00: I tell them, you know, they should read.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_00: Do a lot of reading.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_00: This is a time to get off Facebook and do a lot of reading, because it's you know, because it's kind of don't waste the pandemic, I suppose, is what I would is what I say to them.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_00: But um, you know, whether whether that's uh how far that goes down, it's pretty high.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_00: But look, they're they're they're doing crazy things, you know.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_00: Uh the youngest one's been making past her and the the my I only she's she's living at home, the youngest one.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_00: But um her boyfriend has a uh a flat, so she often spends time with him.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_00: And the other two have moved out.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_00: So Alma moved out between the lockdown, so she's living over the other side of town, and uh and Sid also she moved out when she was 18.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_00: So that's yeah, so you've got I mean it's interesting you know, they're they're adults and they and they cope how they cope, and yeah, you're there in the backstory.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I saw that you posted, and I thought it was quite good.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you you made a comment um during the pandemic, as you say, make the best of the pandemic.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_01: You said um, you know, read as you've just referred to, um, write that story, bake that bread, take up yoga, makrami, learn how the sewing machine works, take online singing, drumming, Yiddish lessons, etc.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_01: Let's not waste a perfectly good pandemic.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_01: Also, happiness, health, and hope that whatever happens will all be somewhere different a year from now.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_01: I thought that was a beautiful quote and very much in line with what you're saying, which is we have to go into the interior space a lot more, which, as you say, you occupy.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um, as I to some degree, as a writer, um, I'm not too phased, other than obviously concerns about uh obviously my children and making sure they have opportunities.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_01: But I thought your your drawing on those resources was actually really quite uplifting and comforting.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_01: And you're one of the children.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_00: What else do you do?
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_00: You know, what else do you do?
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you know, there are a lot of people spending a lot of time obviously whinging, whining, complaining, and desperately frustrated.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, sure, I guess there's plenty of that going on as well.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_01: I had no doubt, Deborah, that you would be expressing your frustration.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um but I do like, I thought that was a wonderful little um vignette because really, you know, you you you are resourceful, you are creative, and you're so are your so are your girls.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_01: And tell me a little bit about Willie.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_01: How are you two?
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I read that you, your last three albums you think were your best.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_01: Tell me a bit about how you two, as collaborators, lovers, husband and wife, I mean, you you two are quite extraordinary, 30 years of marriage.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_01: How are you, how are you one, how are you faring in this climate?
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_01: But more importantly, talk to me about why you think the last three albums are good or your best, according to what I read.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_00: There are many questions in that.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so um, well, uh um Willie and I are are getting on just as well as we've always gotten on.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_00: He's a very, very easy, very easy human being to hang around with.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_00: 26 hours a day, really.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I you know, I used to say, I used to say that we literally hardly spend any time apart, really.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_00: It's um and so we're we're used to it.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_00: And so this in some ways it this lockdown hasn't affected our our actual schedule of life, particularly.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_00: Obviously, that's tours have been cancelled, you know, many all of the um all of the outings that we had planned, uh APR and then a regional tour, and then there was a follow-up, and that was a whole bunch of stuff that um that all went down the gurgler naturally.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_00: But um uh aside from that, it's kind of like it's just one of those years where it's a fallow year, as I like to call it, you know, so that it's a preparation year for the for the one that comes next, which means that you you regroup, you you're writing, you're thinking, you're you're you know, going into those interior spaces and coming up with, you know, you're fishing for for good stuff and hopefully you know you're bringing it back up again.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_00: And and that that is happening, and we are doing that.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so you know, we're we're fine where we're um in exactly exactly who I'd want to be locked down with.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_00: I can't imagine being any any happier with someone.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's special though.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_00: That is very unique and special.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I I I do appreciate that, and I'm feel very, very thankful, very blessed, very humbled by the um the uh the luck that I've had in that department.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_00: So uh, and then to the other question, I think the last three albums that we've made have been, well, we've been really tough on ourselves too.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, this the fact that we work together enhances the relationship, you know.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_00: It's um we do a lot of things together, uh but but we also work, you know.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_00: So the work is really it's key.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_00: It's um it's it's trying to uh make each other's work better.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_00: So there's a lot of criticism that goes on, a lot of kind of digging down and going, and and there's no there's no one you don't just say something that's good, you you you're constantly kind of trying to pick it apart.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_00: And I think we did that more than we've ever done before on these last three records.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_00: We sort of got we got the taste of it for the first one, Stories of Ghosts, and then we went deeper and deeper with um everybody speaking in the words of men.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that the work is better because of it.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_00: And we had you know a great subject matter, you know, that there were things to say.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, clearly stories of ghosts is inspired by you know scenes from the Torah from a beautiful, I love an unbelievers perspective, but certainly, you know, trying to trying to fit fit the the modern modern life over at ancient practices and trying to spirituality, yeah.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_00: And draw and draw out the the the lessons that can be gained from that.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_00: And uh and everybody's begging, I suppose, had a s you know, more of a more of that, but also more of a political edge to it.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_00: And Words of Men was was fairly was pretty political.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_00: So um exactly, very different in that way.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_00: But all but all but the you know the the the the re the original the original um intention was for words of men to have been a natural part form part of a natural triptych between the three of them, but it it sort of didn't quite work out that way because I guess because you know the the temper of the times is so fierce and it's so invasive and it's hard to ignore.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's hard to ignore the world going completely insane around you.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, we we commented on it in in various ways.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_00: And I I like to think that that it's subtle.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_00: I like to think that it's that it's kind of hard.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_00: It's not so it's not laid out in a it's not bludgeoning, no.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_00: It's not bludgeoning, it's not it's not polemical.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um I think I want it to be more questioning.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_00: I wanted it to I wanted it to plant ideas and to for people to be provoked by it, as opposed to to just know what we were saying immediately.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_00: So that's there's a bravery.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_00: And that's you know, that's trying to kind of work through those layers upon layers of meaning and make sure that that each song um has, you know, is is goes in lots of different ways, is able to be interpreted in lots of different ways.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, I just think it's great.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_01: One thing I do, as I mentioned earlier, you there's a bravery in what you and Willie do and what you do.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_01: You push yourself out all the time.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_01: You never sit in your comfort zone and just go, you know, that's done, I'm done.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_01: I do think there's a bravery, and I think that's part of why those three albums, well, you say that they're your best, and I sort of understand why, because I think you've pushed yourself, you know, further.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_01: And that's maybe what you've learned, coming back to the sort of the moniker of what we're doing, which is um my impression is that you're somebody who is prepared to continue to learn.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_01: Would would that be an accurate description?
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely, absolutely.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_00: I challenged myself this pandemic and I read I read um Ulysses.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_00: Now that is impressive.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_00: I am impressed.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_00: I did that in the world.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my god, it's massive.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_00: That's a tough read.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_00: That's a tough.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_00: I think you can I mean people say, oh yeah, we oh yeah, I read that at 16.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_00: And I, you know, at 16, you probably you probably could read that in a kind of different way, I guess.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_00: But look, it it was it felt good.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_00: It felt good to read it.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um What did you learn from Ulysses?
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_01: What did you learn from Ulysses without being exam, you know, when you're not in an exam here, but I'd be interested just from you know, along that those lines, what did you learn from Ulysses?
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_00: Because it's a very possible well it was it was kind of it was well, it was dazzling.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_00: It was a it was a dazzling word play, you know.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_00: It's um and I was constantly referring to the schema as well.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_00: So um uh I didn't uh you know, I only I only know the Greek story um uh uh Odessa's journey um kind of vaguely, the vague outlines of it.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_00: So that sort of didn't didn't help me that much.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I'm sure that I would have um I could have got a lot more out of it if I had been more well read in all of the in all of the um aspects that uh that you you know like if I knew more of the Greek mythology, if I knew more of the um of English, uh the English 19th century authors and all of those things.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, I mean it is it it underneath all that dazzling wordplay, it's funny.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_00: It's a it's a funny book.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_00: And uh and he's and it's very human.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_00: And it's uh and universal.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_00: It's very it's very um empathetic, I suppose.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_00: It's a kind book.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_00: And it's a it's it's a very generous, it's a very generous book.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_00: So and very abstract now.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_00: I I I didn't like it as much.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_00: I don't I didn't like it as much, you know.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_00: They they talk about a des uh you know uh the um Ulysses being the um the greatest book of the 20th century.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_00: I I wasn't sure about that.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_00: I probably would I would probably give it to um I don't know, maybe maybe Mikhail Bulgakov for the Master and Margarita.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_00: But uh but you know.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's a pretty good one too.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_01: But you're obviously well read.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_01: You inform yourself.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_01: You you know, you're you're somebody, you know, coming back to that concept, you inform yourself, you're constantly educating yourself.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_01: I was looking actually, I was obviously when you won, and congratulations, on the um the National Uh Live Music Legend Award that you got last year.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_00: That's incredible.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_00: I had I had the triple cherries.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_00: I had the National Live Music Award followed by followed by becoming giving getting an honor.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I was I'm now Deborah Conway, AM.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_00: I like to call myself D Cam.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_01: Oh hi, AM.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_01: No, but that was a great honor, Deb.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_01: And and then and then what was the third, the one?
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_01: The Don Banks.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, that's right.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, you got the Don Banks.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, and Deborah that's good.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_01: I like that.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so 2019, I mean, really, you know, I was looking, even just reading your speech from that, um, when you got that award.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_01: And I thought it was a beautiful speech because you really went the whole gamut all the way back to when, you know, you were, you know, the band was supporting UB40 and Culture Club.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_01: Took me back, I can tell you.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_01: It was very, very nostalgic reading your speech.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but also it was a really beautiful overview of 40 years in the music industry.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and obviously there were so many highlights, highs and lows, but but um you really covered it beautifully in that speech, because that's pretty uh daunting, I'm assuming, getting up there and talking about this extraordinary award.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_01: Would who would have ever thought that this is where we would be a year later?
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_01: Like, or just what is it, eight months, nine months?
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_00: I remember saying, I remember saying to Andrew McMillan asked me if he could um I were you talking about the NMLA speech?
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_00: So but Andrew McMillan asked me, he's the music editor for the Australian, asked me if he could print my speech from the Don Banks.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_00: Uh he really liked that.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_00: And I said, Yeah, sure.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_00: I said to him, you know, hey, look, I've got the I've got the triple, the triple whammy now.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_00: I could die of COVID, a happy woman.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't let me tell you, you have got a triple whammy, and I had no idea where we would be.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's I mean, it is um, but it was wonderful because uh seeing you reflect back um in that I was speaking to the NML LMA speech, um, and I thought that you covered ground really well, and also I loved the way you did refer to Willie and that you actually shared the award with him and sort of said, you know, this is a collaborative award, and and it was really beautiful the way you touched on that and you brought him into the into the limelight, which he clearly doesn't want to be, but it's beautiful that you did that, you know.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_00: So I think I think it's important I think it's important, and I'm always surprised, you know, I'm always surprised.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_00: I have um, you know, I I I have applied for the Melbourne Prize um before, and I I got some I got feedback, actually unofficial feedback, but but from someone who was on the judging panel, because I applied for both of us, and they said, Oh, look, you probably would have won it if you'd um if you'd uh just gone for you, but we we couldn't do it with the two of you.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_00: You know, wouldn't it didn't work?
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I thought and I thought that you know, but but why but why not acknowledge you know the the kind of the unit of you know the fact is that um I don't even sometimes I don't even know what he writes and what I write.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's it's especially if it's a long time ago, both of us memories are a little bit dodgy these days.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, we've become we have become a sort of single creative unit.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_00: Now, look, some people People might find that, I don't know, less than uh than what it should be other than if it was just if it was just one of us.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_00: But that I mean the the fact of the matter is that it's it's great when you can find a collaborative partner that challenges you, that um that is able to to complement you um at the same time, and that you you know you can make work that's greater than the work that you could potentially make on your own.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's actually sort of a reflection on the prize rather than on anything else.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_01: That I mean, if that's the tenor, because you two are such an extraordinary unit.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um so for you moving forward, obviously, hopefully we'll get through to the end of this year with some, who knows if we'll be let out, us Melbanites.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_01: But other than the interior creative work that you're doing, do you have hope for a new form?
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, we do have these incredible platforms, thank goodness, whether it's the network, Netflix, whether it's the Spotify, we do have, you know, um internet, we have all of these resources, which is probably better than it was in 1918.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_01: But are you talking about being entertained or being entertaining?
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_01: Well, both, I suppose.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_01: I think as an artist.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_01: Spotify terrible for artists.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, because they don't get paid because at the end of the day, the pay what is it?
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_00: One said there's some absolutely genius system where no one can make money from Spotify.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I've seen it it's genius.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_00: They're actually more, it's more worse than the record companies.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_00: If it's even possible to imagine, it's worse.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_01: So do you see any um uh solution or new platform that will need to emerge?
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, believe Bandcamp are very generous, you know, so that's that's a good way to uh to actually to actually move forward.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_00: But um But does it have the universality?
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_00: I believe it does.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_00: Right, okay, probably, yeah.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_00: I believe it does.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_00: But um, I don't know.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I think what do I think?
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_00: I think that uh there'll be a enormous rate of attrition of people wanting to take up music as a career.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, there'll, you know, obviously there'll still be people, and there should be.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_00: And and if you if that's what you have to do, you should absolutely do it.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_00: But um, yeah, it's a it's a tough business.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_01: Do you have so do you have hope for the future in terms of what do you see moving forward?
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_01: Let's let's fast forward to something like next year, when hopefully um there's a vaccine.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I know two artists, in fact, I've interviewed in the last few weeks who have moved to Sydney.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_01: So we've also got an issue about Melbourne attrition.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_01: There's the general attrition of musicians and artists, which is tragic and and diabolical, whether you look at Opera Australia, whether you look at the Australian Ballet, I mean, these huge cultural entities, let alone the you know, sort of indie music scene, it's like Armageddon.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_00: So well, can I can I just say, you know, uh quantists have pulled their sponsor or I what I can't remember what it was.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_00: Was it the opera?
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_00: No, they they put sponsor the ballet, don't they?
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_00: Well something.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_00: They've been they have been sponsoring something that they no longer can afford to sponsor.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but also the NFL.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not exact.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, is it the NFL?
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not exactly sure what it was, but you know, it's the writing is on the wall because that's and people feel sorry for artists, but what about airline hostesses?
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_00: I know, or hospitality.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_00: I mean everybody, everybody, and I certainly don't want to make a special case for musicians.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_00: I really, really don't.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_00: Or the arts in general.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_00: It's just um, you know, we've we've been lucky, and now everybody's gonna have to learn how to be something that that actually has a future.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I think um, do you have any thoughts around what that might be or how that might look?
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_01: Or is that something you think have you heard any talk about town or any um like obviously you've got the Michael Godinskys and you've got people like that trying to access things like the sound on ABC and trying to be creative and resourceful, and you've got to give it to him and to people like him for trying to find ways to keep the arts out in the community because it's actually critical to our fabric as a human, you know, as humans to be able to access these things.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_01: And let's be honest, it doesn't quite, you know, a Zoom concert doesn't quite have the same energy as a live concert.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_00: But I think everybody has to kind of um has to has to rethink their relationship with risk.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_00: It's interesting what we're talking about.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's what we're talking about here.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, at the at the very base of what this conversation is about, it's it's fear of dying.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um what I understand from the CDC is that 94% of people who've died of COVID have actually had two or more comorbidities.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_00: Comorbidities, yeah.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_00: And that actually only 6% of the people who are supposedly died of COVID have actually died of COVID.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_00: The other 94% have died because COVID has played havoc with their, you know, their heart conditions, their diabetes, their overweight, um, you know, high blood pressure, whatever that might be.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_00: And because the the disease tends to um target much older people and people with comor vulnerable and vulnerable people, we have to protect those people, or they have to be encouraged to protect themselves.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_00: And everybody else has to get out and understand that you know that you've got to die of something, and and risk is part of living.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_00: And if you can't, if you've got there's no risk in life, then you know, yeah, like why why do we why are we allowed to drink?
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_00: Why are we allowed to drive?
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, smoke.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_00: Why are we allowed to do anything?
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_00: It's yeah, it's very strange.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't make sense.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't make sense.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_01: What's happening now just doesn't make any sense.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_01: From what you're saying, would you like to see things open up sooner?
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_01: Is that what you're thinking?
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_01: Is that yeah?
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_00: I would.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_00: I would.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_00: And I I see, I'm a great believer in people being responsible for themselves.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_00: And if you're feeling vulnerable, uh, then you'll take extra precautions.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_00: And um, and that's the way it is.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_00: But I just I don't I don't understand why why you know what what's what's going on at the moment is it seems to me there's there's a there's gonna be a lot more problems.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_00: There's gonna be mental health problems, there's domestic violence, there's people losing their businesses and they're and they're really depressed.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_00: And the people who are making the rules are probably quite protected from all of that.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_00: You know, the public servants got a pay rise.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, people like me are protected as well.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I I'm you know, there's a lot of people that are doing fine because we're all got, you know, everybody's on JobKeeper or whatever.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_01: But I agree with you, Deborah.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_01: And so from your perspective, what do you see as next for you?
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_01: Is it creating?
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_01: Is that what you're you know, is that what's your next step in terms of I'm writing.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_01: I'm writing again.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_01: Great, yeah.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_01: I'm I'm write, I'm trying to write some a kind of a memoir of sorts.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much for your time, Deborah.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_01: Really appreciate um and love chatting to you.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks so much for listening.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_01: I hope you've learned as much as I have.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_01: The show will be coming to you free every month, and a subscription is the best way to ensure you get each episode downloaded straight into your pocket.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_01: For more stories or for an opportunity to tell your own, head to my website, mindful and publishing dot com.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_01: In the meantime, stay curious, kind, and connected.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_01: With love, Debbie.