Latest / Nutrition Connection by Dr. Kristen Hicks-Roof / 59: Dr. Dustin Moore PhD, RD- SUPPLEMENTS / COMMUNICATIONS

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59: Dr. Dustin Moore PhD, RD- SUPPLEMENTS / COMMUNICATIONS · Nutrition Connection by Dr. Kristen Hicks-Roof

• Kristen Hicks-Roof PhD, RDN: Welcome back to the Nutrition Connection Podcast, the show where science meets storytelling. I'm your host, Dr. Kristen Hicks Roof, dietitian, researcher, and lifelong advocate of the role of nutrition, health, and wellness. Each episode, I sit down with dietitian and nutrition experts all across the food and healthcare landscape, leaders whose work touches nearly every aspect of our lives. The views, thoughts, and comments on this podcast do not reflect those of my employer nor the employers of my guests. So let's go ahead and get connected. Y'all, I'm super excited to bring on the guests today. We have crossed paths many times and we've actually had debates on the fancy floor ⁓ about saturated fat and some other topics. So we have Dr. Dustin Moore. He's the brand manager of nutrition sciences at Swanson Vitamins and he's also adjunct faculty at CSU Long Beach. Welcome to the show, Dustin. Dustin Moore,PhD, RD: It's awesome to be on here. And funny enough that you say that, Kristen, because ⁓ when I was thinking about like this podcast and getting on the conversation with you, I remember thinking to myself, Kristen is one of those people who I I love talking with, not just because of like the substance to the conversation, because I've had open disagreements and like back and forth with her. And every time I have them, I feel like I come away like more enlightened or more instructed in a like the most positive type of way. So it's like disagreement done the very best way. So it's so funny that you led with that and you you brought that up for part of introduction for it, 'cause I thought about that too. Kristen Hicks-Roof PhD, RDN: You know, it I think that's a good part of being in the nutrition world. Like it is not black and white. We literally sit in the gray ninety-nine percent of the time. And that's not necessarily a bad thing. That just means the science of is evolving. So I yeah, I d I I remember that conversation so clearly because it was like, you're right, you learn something new and people have different perspectives and there's no right or wrong. We weren't upset at the end of the conversation, but it's saying, Hey, here's The science I've read, here's the science I've read. ⁓ do you see why we maybe have some, you know, nuances in the conversation? And I think if you're listening and you're in the nutrition field and you do have a lot of black and whites, I challenge you to get away from the black and whites because this field changes so fast that you you you almost can't stay in one position. That's actually why I decided when I started the podcast, don't have it on a specific nutrition topic. Because I'm like, even in a year. My stance might change on that nutrition topic. And I don't want it on record that this was my stance. So that's what that's kind of why this whole podcast really came to be. But Dustin, let's talk about you. Okay. You, you know, we've had you are such a science expert and you're known a lot in the science field, but bring it back from the beginning. What really inspired you and made you want to become a nutrition professional in the first place? Dustin Moore,PhD, RD: As a so I mean, I had a I had a really different journey for eventually getting into the field of nutrition and dietetics because my initial inclinations, I wanted to get into Leo. I wanted to be a law enforcement officer. ⁓ I was all about like getting into like FBI, special age, and like busting heads or something like that. I really wanted to do that. And then when I got into like a college age and I started talking around a little bit more and I thought about like the future that I wanted. ⁓ I took a lot of respect for that, but I thought I just don't feel like that's what I should be doing. And then eventually it got into looking at healthcare. I thought being a physician would be cool because at the time I was when I was in college at that point, ⁓ and I was married, and my wife and I would watch this show, this medical drama called House. I thought maybe being a doctor would be super cool. And then as I looked at those classes, I thought, no, it's not nearly as sexy as they portray it on television. Still cool, but I don't think I want to do that. And but I knew I loved the sciences. I knew I was at least sold on wanting to do something in the sciences. And the I don't really know if you could say like this was the kicking point, but I did have a conversation with a department chair for clinical lab science. And she was explaining to me about how, well, there's basically two professions that you can do immediate work in once you are done with college. One is clinical lab science, people who do the blood draws and analyze the blood. ⁓ the other one is dietetics. And I'm like, what's that? Never heard of it before. And as soon as I then went and met with the the DPD director at my at my university, ⁓ she sat down and just explained to me, this is what we do. It's involved with food. And it was just this ⁓ like discovery for me of like all of these things I had loved as a kid, ⁓ loved food, loved like analytic thought, thought about like the role of food for making you healthier, the role of food for having a more optimized lifestyle. It was this nexus of all of these things. that I didn't know I really loved. And then when somebody finally said, ⁓ by the way, there's a career, like a formal career you can get out of this. Here's the direction you can go. I was like, I'm sold. And immediately, like, I think that day, I applied to be a dishwasher in a kitchen on campus to start getting like work experience. So I was a I was what you'd call a golden convert into the profession as soon as I learned about it and what you could do with it. Kristen Hicks-Roof PhD, RDN: Well, you know, I think a lot of people come into that. They have no idea that a dietitian is even a profession. I mean, I did interprofessional research for well over ten years and I can't tell you the amount of health professionals who have no idea what dietitians are and what they do, right? And that's these are our peers, much less the people who are coming from high school and trying to decide on a degree and they're like, ⁓ I didn't know that. I love food or I love that relationship or the science behind, you know. Dustin Moore,PhD, RD: Okay. Kristen Hicks-Roof PhD, RDN: physiology and nutrition and metabolism, all these things. So I think many of us kind of come through that route. However, how do we get more young people to realize like that is a career field? I think that's a whole nother thing. So but let's talk about your journey. I mean, you have taught, that's where you and I had a lot of connection, actually. ⁓ you know, I follow your Substack, which hopefully you'll talk a little bit about your Substack, but Dustin Moore,PhD, RD: Yes. Kristen Hicks-Roof PhD, RDN: Talking a lot about science communications, I think that's where you and I interacted in our roles. I mean, several years ago. So what what's your journey been? So you decided you want to become a dietitian. Did you do your PhD first or your RD first? And then kind of give us a little bit of your journey, ultimately, what brought you today to Swanson Vitamins? Dustin Moore,PhD, RD: Absolutely. ⁓ tracking the very beginning was going off, going to college. I got my degree in dietetics from BYU. And then from there, ⁓ my wife and I decided we wanted to go to warmer weathers. We came back to California pursuing grad school and internship. I did my master's in nutritional science at Cal State Long Beach, did my internship there, and became a dietitian there. Out the gates, I had thought I was gonna get started looking at like a clinical position, but I didn't because I was offered a full-time faculty role. ⁓ excuse me, full time ⁓ tenured faculty. So like, you know, adjunct faculty would be the other terminology for I guess depending upon what you're familiar with. I did that full time and then I got a job as an outpatient counselor, and then ⁓ I was just balancing outpatient counseling in a GI clinic and ⁓ teaching, and then there was just opportunities that kept compounding. After that, based on like volunteer things I would do, I became a program reviewer for Ascend, got really familiar with like how you know the educational field operates and how you accredit a program. ⁓ I did this for a few years, and then I just got a bug in me, and I thought, you know what? I really want to go back and I want to learn more about like research and like how you assess evidence and like how we come to the conclusions that we do. And I looked around and I didn't find anything that really felt like a good fit ⁓ that also wasn't going to cost, you know, a million dollars and throw us back into student debt. But I eventually ⁓ I did find a program at University of California, Irvine, in public health. I didn't know very much about public health, but when I read into it and I saw it, I thought, you know what? It's not like this is central for nutrition, but this is a huge expansion on. All of the factors that affect human health and well-being. And I'd love to learn more about that and see how I could integrate like this. And at the same time, I'm learning the evidence and I'm learning how you assess and critically analyze evidence. So I went back to school in 2018, right around the time that my first daughter was born. And I was working ⁓ full-time managing a program. I was managing an educational program at Long Beach, teaching classes. I s I I finally stopped my outpatient job there. And then went to school and was doing school. Now, point of focus to not go too protracted on this. when I finished my degree in 2023, at that time I had had conversations with many people, yourself included. I think I told you right before you hit the record button, is that you're like probably one of the top five people who had some very influential things to share with me about the decision to go the route of tenured. And I decided. I I didn't want I didn't want to follow the tenure faculty route. So that was like, well, what the heck am I supposed to do? ⁓ I eventually got into I I started pulling some opportunities to do contracted work, to do consulting work. And it would be things as simple as we need you to read these hundred studies and provide us with like two sentence explanations as best as you can of what they're saying. It was very challenging. Like Learning how do you communicate accurately what a study is telling you, ⁓ how do you accurately provide information based on like your audience, ⁓ based on like, you know, the whole of this. It was really ⁓ really a task learning how to do that, but it provided some really cool experiences and also some validating things, thinking like, ⁓ wow, I actually did learn some useful things in my doctorate. It wasn't just pain and suffering for that whole five year period. ⁓ And eventually I also then worked a clinical job. Like I was applying to positions. And in the meantime, I thought, you know what? I'd like to go back and get some clinical experience again, which I kind of missed out on because I only worked outpatient. And I loved that job. It was a fantastic role. I did it for about ⁓ eight or nine months. And then around the time I had started doing more like media work, like more writing online, like I did it through a Substack, I did it just through Instagram. ⁓ I felt like I got bullied into joining Instagram, but it ended up being a good thing. And that was how I got on the radar for Swanson Vitamins, who came around and they said, we are looking to build up our program that provides more education for people. We really want to focus on the concept of what wellness means. We think nutrition is a huge piece of this. We've seen your work. We like how you communicate. ⁓ would you be interested in doing a test drive and see how this goes for some product? And we did that, ⁓ and it was a good fit. And then Swanson offered me a full time to join them on board ⁓ earlier this year in January. And so that's ultimately like tracking again from bachelors to where I currently sit right now, ⁓ working full time for Swanson Vitamins. Kristen Hicks-Roof PhD, RDN: I love how you talked about your time as Ascend. I was also an Ascend reviewer. I was. So I was I was an Ascend reviewer for two cycles, but honestly, it drove me really crazy because I'm like, people were so nitpicky on some things. And I'm much a bigger person, not in terms of like size, but I I think bigger picture. Like, how will that impact the future practice applications? Or how would that impact Dustin Moore,PhD, RD: Really? I didn't know that about you. Yeah. How come? Kristen Hicks-Roof PhD, RDN: the trainee of that student. And then I had some reviewers that were like, you're missing a comma on page 12, paragraph three. And I was like, wait, what? Like, that is not what we're focusing on. And again, nothing against that. That is everyone has their own expertise, right? Whether you're very detail oriented or not. And so that's where I I really struggle. But I love the thought of Ascend. And if you don't know what Ascend is, it's the accreditation body for undergraduate and graduate programs and nutrition. And you have reviewers that go in and make sure that there's consistency and and validity in in what they're teaching and their assessment methods. And I actually really like that part. I got to go, although it's also during COVID and so I didn't get to do the fun of going to the universities. I had to do it online. So but I think that there's ways you talked about Dustin, like there's ways that you can get volunteer and like be a part of your profession to advance your profession. ⁓ you know, and and it's advancing how we how we teach or what we teach. And I think that also brings to when I when I think about your role with Swanson Vitamins, like you're bridging that gap of showing how and why a nutrition expert is needed for that company. So like they reach out to you, which is also really interesting. We're gonna get into that. But but I think it's it's an important thing to say of like, as dieticians and nutrition science experts, we sometimes have to be the thought leader of advancing things, whether that's in the food industry or in pharma or supplements or wherever you're at, it's not always that we get people coming on the door, right? Like you were doing things like your Substack, like on your Instagram, things to showcase your skills of science communications. And that's how you were found. So talk a little bit about what that was like being approached by a company to say, hey, what what what would you think about doing some science substantiation for our company? Dustin Moore,PhD, RD: Yeah, yeah. I I exactly it and actually can I preface it by I wanted to share something about the Ascend thing too that you mentioned with this. So ⁓ bit of a back back detail story. I'm not going to name names for this one because this is not a very polite example. so I'll keep it anonymous with that. ⁓ but part of the reason why I decided to become a program reviewer was because of how bad of an experience we had when our program got reviewed. ⁓ we were ⁓ We had our very first cycle review for everything. This was when our program had a DPD and had an ISPP. And it was like a dual evaluation of the two of them since ISPPs at the time were approved under a DPD. ⁓ but our reviewers who came in, ⁓ I won't speak much details, but just in general description, cold, withdrawn, not very forthcoming with like what they were looking for or when they would tell us something and how we would respond to it. And I thought. Yeah, that left me s it left me salty. And so when I was out at a conference, I was approached by Amy, whose name I can positively use. Amy approached me and said, Have you ever considered being a program reviewer? And I said, No, but now I have. And so out on those reviews, the philosophy that I always had was catch people doing something right. Because you're always really quick about like what's the angle about what's good or like what's bad. ⁓ and I would love it when I would go out there and I'd say, Hey. This right here, this thing that you're doing with students, this is awesome. I really like this. This is a great idea. And I think more programs should be doing something like that. So just taking those initial cases about ⁓ you know, what people were already doing, and then just how do you make it better? And yeah, that that that that ⁓ do I say ⁓ pettiness? Was it pettiness? That pettiness drove me to want to get involved and ascend doing that work with them. So Kristen Hicks-Roof PhD, RDN: When I think to your point, Destin, like there's a lot of people who are really frustrated about the field of nutrition and dietetics. And I'm like, Well, what are you doing about it? Nothing. I'm just frustrated. I'm like, well, get involved. Go do something. Sit on a leadership position. Sit on a, you know, write your comments to the a leader or you know what I mean? Like there's things that we can do, right? You saw the frustration that you had as a program director. And trust me, I mean, I wasn't a program director, but I was in academia. Dustin Moore,PhD, RD: ⁓ my well. Kristen Hicks-Roof PhD, RDN: Very intensely. And like, yeah, you see those frustrations. And I was like, yeah, I want to be part of this. I want to help shape the next generation of nutrition professionals. And so that was so yeah, I think we can do something about it besides just complain. Dustin Moore,PhD, RD: You saw it. You go. So Petty jumping over there then from that discussion about like working and being proactive, I found that I enjoyed being proactive with things like that because I I saw a lot of reward coming from those volunteer opportunities. I loved I love meeting the program directors. I love meeting the students. I loved seeing these programs around the country and how they would operate and like, you know, steal like all the best secrets for myself about like ooh, I should be doing this too, and like try to like share the gospel of good education practices. ⁓ And so that encouraged me to just be more proactive and do other things such as writing a substack, ⁓ just you know, independently on my own before I was done with school. Or then, you know, how do you do media communication? Like how do people put these videos together where they have like, you know, short information that they share about topics? I found I found a sense of satisfaction from that. I learned new skill from it. And so that kind of cyclic that cyclically kept me going about it and wanted to be more involved with it. ⁓ and then so Taking it back to the other half of your question that you asked about like, you know, getting on Swanson Vitamins radar. ⁓ and correct me if I'm not answering the the question correctly as you asked it, but ⁓ I had been doing consulting work. I had been I was I was very busy. That like the time period before I joined Swanson Vitamins, I was I had three jobs I was working. I was very busy ⁓ with managing the home. We had just ⁓ adopted our second baby, ⁓ so things were wild in the household. And As part of the consulting work I was doing, I did get a chance to work with a bunch of nutraceutical companies. I did work with some supplement companies. So I had point of reference for how different people did business, like how their business model operated, their driving philosophy for it. So when Swanson Vitamins came along, and that came because of a referral from a good friend of mine, ⁓ she she reached out to me and she told me ⁓ I I spoke with this company, I've done some work with them before, but they're looking for something more long term and they are specifically asking for they want a dietitian, they specifically want somebody who has, you know, good science chops who's may perhaps conducted research. And she said specifically, you have to be comfortable in front of a camera. And so I said, Soul, I'm all good with all three of those. Send me my information along to them. So when they reached out to me. And they told me about what they were hoping to do. My my first contact was with Erin Delpont. She's one of my current bosses ⁓ over there at Swanson Vitamins. She explained to me what the goal was, what the vision was, and about how she said, We are a supplement company, but we want to expand into being able to provide not only but substantiation of like the product that we sell, like the high quality nature of the product that we sell, but we also want to offer a lot of other content for people that can just help elevate health practice, like educate them. Offer them practical tips. We really want to lean on in-house expertise, but we know we can't do that by just hiring influencers. We want to have people who have been in the trenches and done the work with patients or who have done the research and you seem like you have that fit. So I was instantly charmed very quickly on the prospect of this because, like I said, I had worked with other supplement companies. None of them did this. None of them had any of those points of interest. So ⁓ them moving in this direction and really wanting to be based in evidence. And really focused on how do we elevate our consumers ⁓ and you know, take our brand to the next level. I was all about that. And so I like I said, I mean, they you can depends on who you can ask this, but they were a lot of people I spoke with were constantly saying, like, we hope you'll pick us, we hope you'll come work with us. And I'm playing a cool, like, mm-hmm, mm-hmm, good argument, yeah, good argument you have. But internally I was like, pick me, pick me, pick me, please. Like Really excited at the opportunity to do it. and then like I said, when it finally landed, like in it was October, we did a few videos and it was like creatine was one of the first videos we did, which was awesome. I'm trying to remember the other ones that we did. I think El Carnatine was one of the other videos, but it was just these short trending videos about like why do people take it? What's the evidence for it? What's the ⁓ root of act what's the ⁓ proposed outcome of what it does? ⁓ what's the evidence for that? I did those like series of like four videos. I did an on site video shoot with them about like myth busting facts about ⁓ magnesium. Loved doing it. ⁓ I got to meet everybody, wonderful people, everybody who I worked with. And so when the opportunity came around and they said, Here's the vision, here's what we're thinking of, and here's the offer, I was just like, sign that dotted line. Kristen Hicks-Roof PhD, RDN: I mean, it sounds like such a perfect fit. You're right. So let's talk a little bit about what does your day-to-day look like? I think there's a lot of dietitians who are interested in working for supplements or nutraceuticals or food industry, right? Where you have this like claim substantiation and and translating science to a variety of stakeholders. So what what do you do in your current role? Dustin Moore,PhD, RD: Everything everything can be summarized as twofold. ⁓ claim substantiation, evidence of substantiation and evaluation, and science communication. So we do a lot of media work, we do a lot of articles, and then interviews, and then ⁓ the things that are fairly consistent of what we do is we have, like, for example, we have our IG page, we have our main account, Swanson Vitamins, and we have as part of this initiative of ⁓ expanding consumer education and practice. We have this new IG account called Real Wellness HQ. And it's just explanation information about health practices that center a lot about nutrition and diet. But because of the fact that I have a lot of public health training, there's a lot of other topics I'm comfortable talking about. We recently published ⁓ about how ⁓ the current administration has announced that they're doing a rollback on some of the categorization of peptides, and we talked about what that means. Like, even though we don't sell injectable peptides, we're not in that business. It's like, okay. Here you go. Here's what we want to get into. So the stuff that's consistent from day to day is like the team will send me, hey Dustin, we want to say this, or we want to talk about this. ⁓ is this accurate? Is this reflective of the evidence? ⁓ or how should we say this if we're trying to talk about this? Or they'll like, we have like all our we have like our technology to track like things that are trending, and they'll say, Everybody's talking about this right now. Can we produce a 40-second video? ⁓ talking about our product and why people take it. So that's stuff that's fairly ⁓ that's fairly consistent on what we get into. But other things that just like are projects that come up and they drop is like for example, last week was Krill Oil Week. Nobody knows that. Nobody knows about Krill Oil Week. ⁓ but we partner, ⁓ we don't produce our own capsules, we contract and partner with somebody who does. And so we produce some short videos. I wrote an article about. A really cool piece of research that dropped in the New England Clinical Journal of Medicine. ⁓ did I say that correctly? New England. No, no, no, it wasn't that one. It was the clinical journal of nutrition, is what it was. Sorry, didn't want to mess that up on that. ⁓ they dropped a very cool randomized controlled trial that effectively provided very good evidence to demonstrate how krill oil more efficiently elevates EPA and DHA when you compare it to fish oil. ⁓ so we got to like Kristen Hicks-Roof PhD, RDN: New England Journal of Medicine. Dustin Moore,PhD, RD: Put all these videos together for that. We explain these articles about that stuff and drop it out there. And then other times it'll be like media pieces, like somebody reaches out to us and says, We're looking for somebody who's very well practiced in the field of supplements. ⁓ And they want to know something about a particular trending topic. Or, you know, what do the experts say? Or like what are consumers telling you about this product? And then a lot of I do I there's travel involved too, like for like conferences or like for on-site work because our headquarters is in Fargo. I do not live in Fargo. I'm in Southern California. ⁓ so we'll go out there for like video shoots or ⁓ different, like I said, trending topics that come up. Men's Health Month, we did last month and dropped a video about that one. We're very excited because we filmed a behind the scenes of a supplement company, factory, and did like a factory tour that we're gonna be dropping that one. ⁓ when that's all produced and clipped together and ready to go. So the day to day, the ins and outs, ⁓ it's a lot of fun stuff we get to work on. A lot of fun projects we get to work on related not only to supplement education, but like nutrition sciences as well, health sciences. Kristen Hicks-Roof PhD, RDN: When as a scientist myself, you get like giddy in a way. I'm sure you have this feeling. You're like, that's cool. Like, I'll read some of the new science of what's out there and like let's do a video on it. And I think one of the challenges that our profession faces in general, which I'm thankful that, you know, you and I have these advanced degrees where we get a much more thorough understanding of science. Like I think it's challenging for an undergrad to come out and like really be able to interpret the science, you know? Dustin Moore,PhD, RD: No, absolutely. Kristen Hicks-Roof PhD, RDN: And so, but I think science communications is going to continue to be an important role, you know, with AI output and people wanting to make marketing claims and whatever you whatever people are communicating, like you have to have someone who can go in and actually interpret, ⁓ the N was five. Like it doesn't make sense to make that sort of broad sweeping claims, or, you know, the the methodology was really not appropriate to be able to substantiate the type of claim that you're saying. And I think you really only know how to do that when you critically can understand the science and not just read the abstract, which I think is a challenge for our field. Dustin Moore,PhD, RD: Yeah we No, it is, and I see that too. And I I mean what you're saying right now resonates really well because one of the classes I only teach two classes as adjunct for Cal State Long Beach, but one of the classes that's my favorite one to teach is research methods and evidence-based practice. And we talk about this. And when I was first putting that together, I wanted it to be as practical as possible for the purpose of evaluating literature and research and how you do that. And I I remember having a conversation with one of my students who was gonna be coming into that class. And I was showing her something. And I said, Okay, so you see the HR on this one, how it was 0.81? And she goes, What's HR? And I said, That's the hazard ratio. And I said, It's showing the comparison of the outcome relative to this and this. But she just gave me a blank stare and I said, Do you do you know like how to read a hazard ratio? Like, you know how to read like risk ratio, like odds ratio? And she goes, I've heard those terms, but I don't know. So I'm like, Okay. So I took like 30 minutes and I explained and I showed her like when this is below zero and you know when the confidence interval says this, like what this is telling you is the likelihood of this outcome when compared to this group for a given exposure. And I just remember how excited she got when I explained it to her and like eyes like getting wider, and she said, Hold on a second, hold on a second, like throws open her laptop, really quickly finds another article which had a hazard ratio in it. She's like, Okay, so this here. This year they're comparing these crew groups, and this hazard ratio of 1.27 means that there was a 27% increased likelihood of this, but it wasn't significant because of this. And I'm like, there you go. And she was like, ⁓ my gosh, like, just got overwhelmingly excited in that moment about how like it's like learning a new language, and she's all of a sudden got access to this comprehension that she didn't have. And I thought, gosh, I mean, that's a challenge. Like, for a case about our profession where we're so rooted on you know, the evidence, you gotta know more than just how to read the abstract. I mean, you can't just look at evidence as like an on or an off switch. It's way more complicated than that. But yeah, I totally agree with you. Like I see that as like just something you gotta really keep building the bridge on for helping give students a better comprehension about quality, quality and interpretation of results in studies. Kristen Hicks-Roof PhD, RDN: Well, I I think it's tough too because our profession it's so unique. Our profession goes across so many sectors and niches. Like, would you need a hazard ratio if you're a food service dietitian? Probably not, right? And so it's hard because we're universally trained, but we're also not universally practicing. And so people who are in in some of the, you know, Dustin Moore,PhD, RD: Yeah. Kristen Hicks-Roof PhD, RDN: areas where you would need more science communications, like that takes additional training. And it's not necessarily through your undergrad or grad or DI or whatever you're in. So we could talk a lot about it. But for you, I mean you you mentioned it already. I don't know if you want to elaborate anymore, but like scientific evidence is really like involved in your day to day. I mean you use it, you read it, you interpret it, make sure it's communicating. So so I don't think we need to labor too much into there, but What's been your favorite so far, Dustin? You know, you've worn a lot of hats over your years in in different roles and and you didn't really get to talk about your substack. So I do want you to mention that. But what's been your favorite or something you're most proud of as well? Dustin Moore,PhD, RD: Okay. ⁓ career-wise, over here with Swanson Vitamins. So this is where I'd have to tip my hat of how grateful I am to my company ⁓ because of the attitude and the mindset that take with this. And there's a lot of stories I could share behind the scenes of like, you know, what do people at the supplement company think and like how are they operating and approaching this in terms of like a product that we sell, human health and everything like that. But the one story that I I really love, that I love to share this example. ⁓ when I first came on board and I was talking to the CEO, I I expressly said to the CEO at some point, what do we do if we come to a situation where I look at something and I think, I don't think this is what the evidence is saying and I don't agree with this. Am I going to be required to say or agree or just, you know, bend the knee for whatever the company wants to do? And my CEO immediately said, Nobody's ever gonna do that to you, Dustin. Nobody nobody's gonna make you do that. I thought, Okay, cool, keeping that in the pocket. And then about two or three months after I had been hired, we had ⁓ a trending product come up and they sent it to us and they said, Okay, Dustin, we're really excited about this because this is getting huge. This is getting all sorts of clicks and hits. And I reviewed it and I looked over the information and I found plenty of research about it, but nothing that was substantiating why people were taking it or anything like that. And so I took it all together, collected the findings, and I presented it to our marketing team, our marketing department, and I said Kristen Hicks-Roof PhD, RDN: They so sad. They were so sad. Dustin Moore,PhD, RD: I know. They were just like, ⁓ like, just totally, totally took the wind out of the sails on and they said, ⁓ well, thank you. I guess we're not gonna do this then. We're not gonna run this direction with it. And I didn't think about it that much, but I was finished wrapped up with it. I was like, Okay, cool. And then at the dinner table, my wife's like, How was your day? And I was thinking to myself, like, just going, ⁓ you know, this product came up and we were looking at it, but we really couldn't ⁓ substantiate it. So the marketing decided to turn against make it into a campaign. And I thought, marketing listened to me. ⁓ my gosh. They listened to what I had to say and they changed direction because of what I said. And it just didn't click with me. It didn't dawn on me in that moment, realizing they care about what I had to say. Like I offered something and it was valuable to them. And even though it disappointed them, they still went with it. So that's that's happened on multiple occasions now where You know, we have this product come up and we have to revise how it goes forward and what we say about it just because we don't find enough evidence to it or because we're trying to ethically ⁓ share, you know, what people really need to know about it. And ⁓ that's those that moments, that one, that was that one in the journal, that one I that was one of those key moments of like, ⁓ that was a proud moment I had for that. And just again, like I said, that's kind of that's also partially owed to my company just because of the integrity that they possess with ⁓ what they say that they do. With other products, I don't I what ⁓ sorry, Kristen, help me out. Where else was I supposed go with this? Kristen Hicks-Roof PhD, RDN: No, you're fine. So what in your career, what have you been most proud of? I mean, that is a great example of your current job, but like what have you been most proud of in general? ⁓ or some Dustin Moore,PhD, RD: I am just proud of the profession. I meet a lot of people. I meet a lot of students. I've seen people all over the dock who are doing different jobs all for the promotion of human health, whether that's something as broad as access or as policy modification, people who sit with the really burned out patients in the hospital. The thing I'm most proud of is calling myself a dietitian and carrying the legacy because it's a good one. It's gotten subject to some tarnishment here and there. And we've heard unkind things spoken occasionally. And I've also heard a lot of other things which I would completely disagree with on the basis of, you know, yeah, you know, my evaluation of the profession and having been in the trenches looking at how do we educate our students, what's the accreditation material to it. I find that there's a lot of unkind things that are often said, but when you actually peel back rhetoric and you look at what's happening on the road, you look at the actual outcomes. When people meet with dietitians, their lives get better. And I, you know, I count that I count that as an honor that I get to be a part of that and contribute to that in terms of this profession that's not only known for good outcomes, but for good people. Good people who have professionalism and integrity, who are really vested in wanting to help promote human health and wellness, who respect individual choice and preference who really follow that evidence-based practice of, you know, best evidence, clinical practice, and patient preferences. ⁓ I see them doing that and I just I'm just proud of that. And I see how they do it and I see the work that they do. And I know that we're not the most well known profession out there, but my prediction far down the future, which I think this might be a question you'll ask later, my prediction down the road is that there's going to be explosion in opportunity for dietitians when people see not only what we do, but who we are. Kristen Hicks-Roof PhD, RDN: Yeah, I echo that sentiment. I mean, it I was telling you before we got on. I, you know, I really try and do two episodes a week, but I took a break during the summer and I do two episodes because I truly love it. Like it is so incredible when you listen to any of the episodes. If you've listened to any of them, people are coming from out of the woodworks, right? Whether you're in agriculture or you're in supplements or in the food industry or in different clinical niches, right? I brought on people who work in Pediatrics and who are going to be working in transplants and like we impact people's lives in so many different ways. Like even in the supplement industry, you're making sure that these claims are valid, that are substantiated, that make sense, that are trustworthy to the consumer. And that needs a nutrition expert. Right. And so I think I agree with you, and we'll get to that question in a minute. But one quick question. What suggestions or tips would you have for someone who's interested in supplement, like getting into a nutrition communications supplement role, or just any of the roles that you've had? What tips would you have for them to be successful? Dustin Moore,PhD, RD: You need to write and you need to talk. This is extremely basic, and I know it sounds very boring when I tell students this, but I tell them, How do you feel about this? I feel like this. Okay, go write that out and go see how challenging that is to write it in a way that people are going to want to listen to it. The communication mediums that we have in the sense of writing and speaking, neither of these are very easy to do when you actually attempt to do them on a broader scale, whether that's giving a presentation to people. Or whether that's putting it to task in an article and trying to take this matter of thought that you have and making it something structural and cohesive that people are going to want to read. It is taken for granted. It is assumed that it is too easy and simple, and it is not. And if you want to get into what I do, if you want to come over here, if you want to do like practicum work with us over at Swanson Vitamins, because we offer a lot of venues to do that for students who are doing practicum work. Come join us and we'll show you and you'll get a sense of how challenging, but how satisfying it is. But that is just a key detail about it is just remembering is that all of these things that you learn, like these details about nutrition information, about health science, these aren't given. This is not general knowledge. Like for crying out loud, like the conversation, the hours of conversation I have had about what's the difference between an apple versus a piece of beef jerky. And why are these not to be Subbed or swapped out for each other or something like that. It's just, it's so easy in this profession when you study it to just take the stuff that you learn for granted and to forget that no, there's a way to communicate this. There's a way to share this. And you don't not to discredit anybody out there, but you don't innately have this quality. It has to be refined, like writing and speaking to people. These are things that you have to practice and work upon and get. I'm gonna stop there 'cause I'm gonna start shouting if I keep going with this. I feel very strongly about this, Kristen, if it's not apparent. Kristen Hicks-Roof PhD, RDN: Well, I I think you're right that you it's not like you just go out of school and you are this expert communicator. Like it takes a lot of drafting. I mean, I write a lot of content, both in my employment and then I write, you know, for with with the podcast I help to write content with my LinkedIn. All of that takes time because you it's so funny you said that like beef jerky and Apple example, because Dustin Moore,PhD, RD: Yeah. Kristen Hicks-Roof PhD, RDN: There's so many things where I'm like, I'll tell my parents, like, you have to eat more protein at breakfast or, you know, or have a protein with a carb at a snack. And they're like, So what does that mean? Like, what is a protein option? What what is a carb? And I'm like, ⁓ you know, like protein, like meat or cheese or dairy or beans or nuts or whatever, you know? And they were like, Okay, like, is that all my protein options? Like what you know what I mean? And I For me, I'm like, yeah, that's protein. Like, how do you not know that? But for them, they don't know it. And so I think when we think about communications, one the things that I really focus on when I teach, because I give a lot of lectures and I talk to a lot of students and young career professionals, put some referencing. If you're gonna make a claim, put a reference on it. And I don't care if you're on TikTok or Instagram, we are an evidence-based profession. And the more we can bring evidence Dustin Moore,PhD, RD: Healthy easy. Please. Kristen Hicks-Roof PhD, RDN: To the forefront to say, hey, I'm not just saying this because I believe it. I'm saying it because here's science to support it. I just feel like we're gonna get more validation. Like, okay, that person is not just going off because I can't tell you the amount of dietitians and non-dieticians I follow where I'm like, wait, w where's the science for that? Like I've never seen that statistic. And then they're like, ⁓ well, you know, it's on my blog. And I'm like, I know, I I get it's on your blog, but like where is the reference? Because the reference is what I'm looking for because I want to cite it. And if I know the reference, then I can cite it and I can make those same things too. So that's one thing that irks me. So your irk is your let's get on with communications and mine is let's cite it. Please go off. Dustin Moore,PhD, RD: I I I love the citation and the references that put it out there. And I think like this is something else that students could do well with is understanding what epistemology is, which the short explanation of epistemology is like how do you justify the difference between fact, belief, opinion, and unjustified opinion? Like how do those all parse out? It's like how do you where is that claim from? Where where does the claim come from? And there's a lot you can unpack within that. And then taking it a step further is again just okay, now how do you tell this to a person without boring them, without making it be uninteresting or dull, because your average person who doesn't have like scientific training or scientific literacy so much, you can't sit down with that person and say, Okay, right here, you see this? This is an underpowered study. They only had 70% power because they didn't get the number quite high enough in the recruitment or they lost too many people. No. That That's not gonna work with people who aren't in that, most of them. You need to find another way to be able to keep it interesting for them and get them engaged with it because one without the other is just not gonna work. And if we're pushing people, I this is like a thing, I we'll be we'll be talking about this a lot more, is if all we're doing is just trying to push and pass policy or pass law or just take the best evidence and make that be the standard, that's not evidence-based practice because evidence-based practice also values the preferences of the people that you're working with. And you know what? As I have learned from experience and COVID, I'm sure you saw this too. There's a lot of things people will reconsider and think about with their health. There's a lot more they'll think about with the trade-offs, especially if something isn't necessarily best for them or healthiest for them. Kristen Hicks-Roof PhD, RDN: Yeah, well, and every tr every person has different trade-offs. I remember that from my corporate wellness days. Like how I would convince one person to change their behavior is very different than how I'd convince another person. I gotta find what their passion is, what's their desire, why do what drives them. Right. So, okay, you got twenty seconds, pitch your Substack. If you still use it, I mean I follow you, but Dustin Moore,PhD, RD: Yeah. I still I still have a substack that I write about like broad public health topics, but over there, I mean I do a lot of writing for our science and wellness, our science and research hub at Swanson Vitamins, but Substack is Public Health Dad. And I just put all the thoughts down about anything to me that's about a good life, not just a long one, living a good life from the lens of public health. Kristen Hicks-Roof PhD, RDN: All right, perfect. I wanted to make sure that got in because I love following your Substack. I know ⁓ I mean we get we're connected and it's it's just always fun to learn from someone who can like distill science down into that practice because that's really a lot of what I do as well. Okay, last question here, Dustin. If you had a crystal ball and you alluded to it, what do you think is coming next to nutrition? Dustin Moore,PhD, RD: Yeah. Okay, for nutrition, what I think is coming next that people should learn more about is learn about microplastics. Okay. I know that's a very specific to point. The problem is that we're learning more and we're having more research being published, and it's very easy to make whatever kind of crap claim you want about microplastics without substantiation. Learn about them. They are everywhere, they're all over the place. You eat on average two to three credit cards a year in microplastic contents. And it sounds very scary for people, but You know what, it's also gonna be a very easy avenue for predatory practices. Buy my this and whatever, it's gonna get the microplastics out of you. Learn about those. That's coming down the road. A second thing that I think is gonna be incredibly important is human connection. The rise of AI technology is making it so easy for people to dissociate from others or to find everything they want online through those AI bugs. And that's not what they do. You cannot replace human relationships. And I think that there's going to be a huge marker of this one for confident, poised, prepared, invested health professionals, a la dieticians, who are going to be able to build those rich relationships which give people a sense of empowerment, feeling good about the choices, seeing what they could improve upon, and not just working, like I said, from like a broad top-down approach to it. So communication with that stuff. And building those relationships is gonna be huge. And what else? Anything else I think is gonna be coming down the road? I don't know. I kind of feel like that's a good coverage on it. I think a lot more heart disease. I think more heart disease is coming down the road with some some of the current practices in place. And for anybody out there, any dietitians who are out there were saying like, It's too hard. It's gonna be too hard. It's always been hard. Human health has always been hard. Don't. We don't got no quitter mindset in this profession. We are in this. Do not run away anywhere just because it gets hard. Human health has always been challenging. The nature of the challenges has changed for sure, but you know what? That doesn't mean that it's any less important for you to get involved and get active in it. So there. Kristen Hicks-Roof PhD, RDN: I think that's where you you talked about like, you know, being able to be that communicator from the beginning, right? And to have a seat at the table and to have that human connection. I think this is where I said also at the beginning, we have to almost live in a gray zone because that human connection and that when you're when you're I mean, I go back to my days when I was a practicing dietitian, like with people. Yes, I can take the science lens and I can distill that down to them, but maybe that person can't afford it. Not a not familiar with them, not culturally appropriate. Maybe their kids don't eat it, right? There's like all this context, which I think dieticians do a really good job of give me the context of the issues and challenges and opportunities you're facing. Now I'm gonna take the science and say, okay, this is what's gonna work, right? In your life, in your patterns. And I think that is something that Our profession does a really good job at and has the ability to here's the data and here's the context and here's how we blend it. And the nutrition professional is there at the middle. So, Dustin, it was so great to have you on. I always love talking with you, and we could get into many more debates. If you're on the fencing floor, find Dustin and I, I'm sure there will be something we'll get nitty-gritty and talking about on the science floor. So great to talk to you. If you like the episode, make sure you like, subscribe, leave a review, but most importantly, Dustin Moore,PhD, RD: Go on. Absolutely. Kristen Hicks-Roof PhD, RDN: Check out the next episode because every episode I bring on a different dietitian and nutrition expert to share their story and give you tips and advice on how to be successful.