Latest / The Wholehearted Enneagram Podcast / Hard Conversations Matter | with Lori Stanley Roeleveld

Transcript

Hard Conversations Matter | with Lori Stanley Roeleveld · The Wholehearted Enneagram Podcast

0:01
SPEAKER_00: Hi friends, welcome back to the Simply Wholehearted podcast.
0:05
SPEAKER_00: It means so much to have you choose to take our conversation along with you today.
0:10
SPEAKER_00: I'm Amy Wicks, your host, and here at Simply Wholehearted, we provide simple plans for life's most creative endeavors.
0:18
SPEAKER_00: The culture around us lows us to complacency, half awake to our purpose, and more often than not, seems as if everyone else around us celebrates mediocrity.
0:28
SPEAKER_00: But we believe there is more to your story.
0:32
SPEAKER_00: Awaken your heart with extraordinary tales of the ordinary, find encouragement as you discover your creative purpose, and be empowered to create your unique masterpiece in life, family, and community.
0:45
SPEAKER_00: If you've tuned in the last couple of weeks, you know we're taking the weeks of Lent to realize our need for a savior and ready ourselves and our family for a fitting celebration of Easter.
0:57
SPEAKER_00: I hope that if you didn't catch the bonus conversation with Barbara Rainey, you will tune in as soon as you listen to this week's newest episode.
1:04
SPEAKER_00: There was much I learned from her wisdom and life experience, and it readied my heart and home for this season in a surprising way.
1:13
SPEAKER_00: And I'd love to give a shout out to my friend Rosemary Jones.
1:16
SPEAKER_00: You'll have to check out her Instagram post of how she was inspired to get her family ready this Easter.
1:23
SPEAKER_00: It's a really cute and simple idea.
1:25
SPEAKER_00: I'll put all the links in the show notes.
1:27
SPEAKER_00: This week's guest is Lori Stanley Willeveld.
1:30
SPEAKER_00: She's an author, speaker, and self-proclaimed disturber of hobbits.
1:34
SPEAKER_00: Her latest book dives into the topics of hard conversations.
1:38
SPEAKER_00: And I don't know about you, but I am not a fan of tough conversations.
1:43
SPEAKER_00: So I was intrigued to hear and read what Lori had to share.
1:46
SPEAKER_00: She helps others understand our natural approach to this difficult topic and how to overcome when we went to Shia O Bay.
1:53
SPEAKER_00: Lori is full of stories based off of her life experiences and gives plenty of encouragement to share truth with confidence and love.
2:02
SPEAKER_00: We're uh doing a series during lint season.
2:07
SPEAKER_00: And as I was reading your book and just, you know, kind of sifting through it, and I felt like, oh man, especially how you even talked about how the Lord used hard conversations to really bring you back to Him and relationship with Him.
2:24
SPEAKER_00: And I I just thought, hey, this fits right in because I think Lent, not too unlike Christmas or the Advent season, it's just this this amazing window of time that we get an invitation to pause and consider what the Lord actually did for us and to remember our need for a savior and the fact that the only hope to be found is in him.
2:47
SPEAKER_00: And that also be reminded that this is not our home.
2:50
SPEAKER_00: So I think that um that alone can be a hard conversation.
2:54
SPEAKER_00: We've been talking about lament and our kids asking us hard questions and and all sorts of different things.
3:00
SPEAKER_00: So so I I had fun as I was reading your book.
3:03
SPEAKER_00: You had kind of outlined three different conversational um types, if you will, personalities of you know, that comes through in conversation.
3:12
SPEAKER_00: I was just kind of curious what led you to those three.
3:16
SPEAKER_00: Sure, sure.
3:17
SPEAKER_01: I I really was looking for a way to describe different personalities that people could relate to, but also in a way that helped us to appreciate that there's uh that there's no right or wrong about these personality types.
3:33
SPEAKER_01: We we all can have a tendency to move in one direction or another.
3:37
SPEAKER_01: So they're not scientific.
3:38
SPEAKER_01: The personality types I came up with for conversations, they're really conversational types.
3:43
SPEAKER_01: They're they're not scientific, and we can all sort of have moments where we're more like turtles, more like hawks.
3:51
SPEAKER_01: Some a lot of people fall into one or the other category.
3:54
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
3:54
SPEAKER_00: So do you get a turn rundown, yeah, real quick of all of those?
3:58
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, a turtle would be someone who, when conflict arises, or when there's something, you know, even a difficult conversation about visiting someone in the hospital or something, they just want to curl up into their shell and they want to avoid the whole thing.
4:13
SPEAKER_01: So they're not fans of conflict, they tend to stay quiet.
4:17
SPEAKER_01: And we tend to think of um those people as having maybe being people pleasers or something, but I think there's more to it than that.
4:25
SPEAKER_01: And I I think especially for the Christian, a lot of us are just very sensitive to not wanting to hurt other people.
4:31
SPEAKER_01: We don't want to create more damage in the name of Jesus.
4:33
SPEAKER_01: We want to do things represent Jesus well, and so there's a there are some hesitations that come about because of good motivations, not it's not always because of bad.
4:43
SPEAKER_01: So turtles tend to be uh it have that kind of motivation.
4:48
SPEAKER_01: Uh hawks are people who have no problem creating conflict.
4:52
SPEAKER_01: In fact, they think if they thrive on it.
4:55
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, if they're not creating conflict, they think they're not doing their job for Jesus.
4:58
SPEAKER_01: Like in Jesus' name, I better be out there.
5:00
SPEAKER_01: If you agree with me too much, maybe I'm compromising.
5:03
SPEAKER_01: And so we need we love our hawks, we need our hawks, they they uh you know, forge uh the the truth for the church, move us forward, keep us all on our toes.
5:13
SPEAKER_01: And so there's a lot to, you know, there's nothing more beautiful than watching a hawk in flight, unless that hawk is coming at you and making you its prey.
5:22
SPEAKER_01: So, you know, that there are hawks that you know, there are hawkish moments where we're we're not really listening to the other person, and we're sort of swooping in and expecting them to just rise with us, and we don't know why they're not joining us in flight.
5:35
SPEAKER_01: So those uh, you know, Moses would be sort of more of a turtle tendency personality, Peter would probably be more confident.
5:43
SPEAKER_00: Here, talk to my brother instead.
5:44
SPEAKER_00: I don't want to.
5:46
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
5:46
SPEAKER_01: You know, like and there were all of us in the church who say, Oh, I need you talk to my pastor, or can you come talk to my friend instead of us doing it?
5:54
SPEAKER_02: Right.
5:55
SPEAKER_01: And then Hawks would be more like Peter, just you know, out there, here's the truth.
6:00
SPEAKER_01: Why don't you accept it?
6:01
SPEAKER_01: It's so clear, it's obvious.
6:04
SPEAKER_01: You know, like we love Moses, we love Peter.
6:06
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
6:06
SPEAKER_01: And then and then there are chameleons.
6:08
SPEAKER_01: Uh, I tend to be, I you know, those are there are those of us who I tend to be more of a turtle in social situations.
6:16
SPEAKER_01: You know, if I get food that is not the way I wanted it prepared or it's burned, I just eat it.
6:21
SPEAKER_01: I don't want to cause any trouble.
6:22
SPEAKER_01: Thank you was delicious.
6:23
SPEAKER_01: Here's an extra tip.
6:26
SPEAKER_01: And yeah, and yeah, in the church, when it comes to talking about the Bible or uh subjects about which I'm passionate, I can be a hawk and just run over people.
6:35
SPEAKER_01: So we can there are people who could be who are sort of chameleons, like Paul.
6:39
SPEAKER_01: Paul could be, he didn't change the content of his message, but he did change the delivery of his message, the delivery style depending on who he was talking to.
6:49
SPEAKER_01: So you know, the glory is that God can use all of us and it's a wonderful thing.
6:54
SPEAKER_01: So I think like I when I test with the eneagrams, like I usually test, I'm kind of a good person to write this book because I I test sort of between eight and nine, I can be a challenger and a peacemaker.
7:06
SPEAKER_01: So when you're when you have challenger and peacemaker in your makeup, you live in constant tension with yourself.
7:14
SPEAKER_00: Yes, absolutely.
7:15
SPEAKER_00: I think there's great I'm married to a nine, and I he has yet to really strongly determine is he an eight-wing or a nine, you know, a one-wing.
7:24
SPEAKER_00: And so that might be your case as well.
7:26
SPEAKER_00: That if you test, you know, only you can ever decide and figure out what that inner, you know, the need, the the message your heart longs to hear.
7:37
SPEAKER_00: But ultimately, some of our nature, um, but then is really at the core of who we are and our primary number, but then the the nurture side um tends to influence our wings.
7:49
SPEAKER_00: And you can think of wings like salt and pepper.
7:52
SPEAKER_00: You use both of them, but you tend to use one more than the other for the most part.
7:57
SPEAKER_00: And so it very well could be could be a nine with an eight wing.
8:01
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, probably, because my tendency is to want people to be comfortable.
8:05
SPEAKER_01: I want to, I want to bring people together.
8:07
SPEAKER_01: I I I see solutions, I want to work things out, help people find a pathway.
8:12
SPEAKER_01: The challenger comes from my relationship with Jesus and wanting to be like him and seeing that he challenges our culture, challenges us to, you know, my whole uh my tagline is Disturber of Hobbits.
8:26
SPEAKER_01: And that's because I think that the the American church, we like our comforts, we like to be comfortable, we like our meals on time, we want, you know, and I'm just like that.
8:36
SPEAKER_01: But then Jesus comes along and rattles our cage and brings us kicking and screaming on an adventure, but we learn that we like it.
8:44
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and that's the best place to be.
8:45
SPEAKER_01: So I want to do that for other people, and so that you know that does create a certain amount of discomfort and conflict.
8:52
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well, and it it's unto peace, it's unto wholeness.
8:56
SPEAKER_00: So it's not just for the sake and the thrill of conflict.
8:59
SPEAKER_00: Hey, right, you do a bigger, better thing.
9:03
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
9:04
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and to help.
9:06
SPEAKER_00: Hey, you may have guessed by now that we love to talk Anneagram around here.
9:11
SPEAKER_00: And if you still have questions about the Anneagram and want to know the best way to begin your Aneagram journey, well you're in luck because I have several ways to get you started.
9:20
SPEAKER_00: First, I have an Aneagram quick start guide you can download, which gives you a rundown of my favorite resources and the step-by-step discovery process.
9:28
SPEAKER_00: Then I would love to answer your Anneagram questions on the podcast or the socials so you can submit your questions in under a minute on our Anneagram question form.
9:38
SPEAKER_00: Now, best of all, I am a certified Anneagram coach, and I have a few limited spaces this spring with me, your wholehearted living coach.
9:47
SPEAKER_00: With years of life experience in addition to an understanding of the Anneagram, together we can discover your type and the best path of growth for your spirit, mind, and body.
9:57
SPEAKER_00: Let's move past the messy middle, get free from the shame-based ending, and instead reboot your story by better understanding your season and uncover the fruit of your best life.
10:08
SPEAKER_00: Now, not everyone is right for this type of coaching, but if you want to find out if you would be a good fit and get a free 30-minute consult, you can get your name on the wait list.
10:18
SPEAKER_00: The links are in the show notes, and you can find out more at simply wholehearted.com.
10:25
SPEAKER_00: So tell us a little bit about your story, about the process of you coming back to Christ, how a hard conversation led you back to him ultimately, your own personal Easter resurrection Sunday, and and how community plays into the I this idea and this need of having tough conversations.
10:45
SPEAKER_01: Well, I have known Jesus since I was a little girl.
10:48
SPEAKER_01: That was I walked forward in front of our television during a Billy Graham crusade altar call.
10:54
SPEAKER_01: And uh like sort of like a geek in the 60s, knelt down in front of our black and white television.
10:59
SPEAKER_01: My mother was like sewing in the dining room, looking in, going, What is she doing?
11:04
SPEAKER_01: And I was accepting Jesus and I just loved him from the beginning.
11:07
SPEAKER_01: So sometimes when people hear that, they think, Oh, like then she's led this very straightforward life and always been fine and never wrestled with anything.
11:15
SPEAKER_01: But there were certainly times in my life, you know, what I tell people is, oh, I've sinned.
11:19
SPEAKER_01: I've just done it all right in front of Jesus.
11:21
SPEAKER_01: Like I've just done it with that, you know, then there's no excuse for what I've done.
11:26
SPEAKER_01: It's just it wasn't in her ignorance, it was yes.
11:29
SPEAKER_01: Right.
11:29
SPEAKER_01: And so there was certainly a time when uh that that I was wandering, it was the young adulthood after college, and I'd spent a lot of years being good, and I got tired of it.
11:40
SPEAKER_01: I wasn't getting the rewards that I thought I should be getting for being good, and um that leads you into a place where you feel like maybe you need to reward yourself.
11:48
SPEAKER_01: So I was I was wandering and dating the wrong man, and one night I came out from um his apartment and I had two friends waiting in the in the road for me, two um good, godly, loving Christian friends.
12:04
SPEAKER_01: And you know, I was sort of surprised to see them, but I I said, I you know, what are you doing here?
12:09
SPEAKER_01: You're like, Are you following me?
12:10
SPEAKER_01: That's like, you know, kind of creepy.
12:13
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
12:14
SPEAKER_01: But, you know, Christians, we can learn to hide what we're doing.
12:18
SPEAKER_01: You know, at the time I was leading the church youth group and leading Bible studies, and yet, like, I was dating a man who had no, you know, interest in Jesus at all.
12:28
SPEAKER_01: And so these two friends said, let's go for coffee and we're just gonna talk to you until you remember who you are.
12:34
SPEAKER_02: Oh, wow, that's powerful.
12:36
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it was it was and it was a wonderful conversation because you know, they would say scriptures to me, and then I would start to sort of argue back.
12:44
SPEAKER_01: They were like, Okay, really, do you want to use scripture to defend like what you're doing?
12:49
SPEAKER_01: Do you want to remember who you are?
12:51
SPEAKER_01: And it was just a long night of tears and conversation, but it was very meaningful, meaningful for me and powerful and helped me to return.
13:00
SPEAKER_01: You know, it wasn't just like, okay, one and done.
13:02
SPEAKER_01: Great, let's have this conversation and you're fine now.
13:05
SPEAKER_01: They knew, like, okay, so what are the steps that we need to walk with you through to, you know, what led you to this place, and then how do we walk you out of it?
13:13
SPEAKER_01: It's not just simple, like, oh, we just need to change, let us know how that works out.
13:17
SPEAKER_00: Right.
13:17
SPEAKER_00: To to just bring down the hammer and then walk away and let you figure out how to put the pieces back together.
13:23
SPEAKER_01: Right, right.
13:24
SPEAKER_01: They were willing to stick with me and you know, there uh there was a lot of affirmation of love, and it wasn't a con a condemning conversation at all.
13:31
SPEAKER_01: It was like help us understand how you got to this place.
13:34
SPEAKER_01: What did you know, what did we miss?
13:36
SPEAKER_01: What did you know, what was happening?
13:38
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
13:39
SPEAKER_00: It probably took some hard conversations following that, I would imagine, too, because the process of accountability is not easy.
13:45
SPEAKER_00: You have to be willing to ask really uncomfortable, direct things in order to well, and to evoke truth and to make sure that people are walking in the way that they that they ultimately know that they should be in the walking of the Lord.
14:01
SPEAKER_01: And one of the things I talk about in the book is before we have a hard conversation, it's important to think about now what what's it gonna look like if this conversation is effective and successful and the person that I'm talking to, you know, wants to, if it's about conflict or sin, what if they want to change?
14:19
SPEAKER_01: What if they want to accept Jesus?
14:20
SPEAKER_01: What do, you know, do I know what I'm gonna do?
14:22
SPEAKER_01: Because a lot of times we prepare for rejection, we don't prepare for success.
14:26
SPEAKER_01: I'm a sort of a remedial evangelist.
14:28
SPEAKER_01: So when I share the gospel and someone says, yes, I want to accept Jesus, I'm always like in a panic mode, like, oh, wait, do I know how to help you do that?
14:35
SPEAKER_01: I, you know, like I do, but I I have to think that through.
14:39
SPEAKER_01: And it's the same way with rejection.
14:41
SPEAKER_01: You know, what are we willing to do, you know, if if they reject?
14:45
SPEAKER_01: Do we say, you know, could we talk about this again?
14:48
SPEAKER_01: Are the limits we need to set on situations?
14:51
SPEAKER_01: But to think about that ahead of time helps us to be calmer during the conversation.
14:55
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I kind of, as I was reading it, it I thought through a lot of this is how to have conversation about boundaries.
15:02
SPEAKER_00: And those are really hard to enforce and they don't always go really well.
15:06
SPEAKER_00: So, what's a person to do if they have the tough conversation and it's not accepted as they've hoped it would be?
15:14
SPEAKER_01: One thing is to think before you head into a conversation, don't think about one and done.
15:20
SPEAKER_01: Don't think, don't lay all your hopes on this one single conversation.
15:23
SPEAKER_01: In fact, don't place your hope in conversation at all.
15:26
SPEAKER_01: Your hope is always in Jesus.
15:28
SPEAKER_01: So it's your responsibility to speak up, it's your responsibility to have the conversation, but think about, you know, you might say to someone, look, I there's something really important I want to talk to you about.
15:39
SPEAKER_01: It might take us one conversation, it might take us four.
15:42
SPEAKER_01: Um, I just want, you know, I I don't want to pressure us right now, and I don't want to pressure you.
15:48
SPEAKER_01: So, you know, let's set up this state, but let's think about the fact that maybe we're gonna at some point stop this, but I'm gonna want to revisit it.
15:55
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so so you know, to set that up.
15:57
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so it just is the mindset of it this is a relationship, and part of a relationship is ongoing communication.
16:04
SPEAKER_00: And so if if this initial one I mean, because honestly, I as I read it, a lot of this has to do with us, right?
16:12
SPEAKER_00: What is the Holy Spirit prompting us to do, our obedience to that, and then for us a lot of times almost kind of getting rid of a weight we might be carrying around from unspoken expectations, unspoken convers conversations where we can then like transfer the responsibility off our shoulders of going, okay, we were obedient, we did it, we said it, and now the Lord can do his work.
16:35
SPEAKER_00: And I just am obedient the next time the opportunity comes up for a conversation.
16:40
SPEAKER_01: Right, right.
16:40
SPEAKER_01: We put too much pressure on ourselves when with anticipating conversations, and it's a lot like when I was a little girl, I would, I don't know if you had a basement in your house, but my mom would send me down to the basement to that's where her pantry was.
16:53
SPEAKER_01: So she'd be like, Oh, I need, you know, canopies for supper.
16:56
SPEAKER_01: I hated that.
16:57
SPEAKER_01: Like because I'd have to go into the dark basement and then I'd walk up the stairs and I would feel like something was following me up the stairs, and like my I would start breathing heavy, and I would feel like you know, like you would actually feel panic.
17:11
SPEAKER_01: And I knew if I just turned around and looked, it would all go away because there was really nothing there.
17:16
SPEAKER_01: That's what happens to us when we're anticipating hard conversations.
17:19
SPEAKER_00: Oh man, isn't that the truth?
17:21
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, just having it makes all that panic go away.
17:24
SPEAKER_01: And we what we do is try to have both sides of the conversation.
17:28
SPEAKER_01: We think to ourselves, well, if I say this, they're gonna say this, and this is gonna happen, and this is when really we should just let go of that and be more childlike about it and say, Well, I, you know, I'm supposed to have my part of the conversation, so I'm gonna just start and trust Jesus as we move forward.
17:43
SPEAKER_00: When this idea came to you, or maybe you finally discovered the language where this is hard conversations than the art of harving having hard conversations, what did you find at most changed in your life?
17:54
SPEAKER_00: Like where did you see the best fruit because of this revelation that you had?
18:00
SPEAKER_00: About having hard conversations.
18:03
SPEAKER_01: Um, probably in my willingness to be more open to other people, to you know, people surprise me more because I'm um, you know, I have a job where I'm forced to have hard conversations with people, and you know, I had to become comfortable with it.
18:22
SPEAKER_01: And I'm amazed at how many people are actually ready to change that I did not anticipate being ready to change a lot.
18:29
SPEAKER_01: Um, I think a lot about Jonah and the Ninevites.
18:32
SPEAKER_01: You know, Jonah did everything to avoid going there, and yet the Ninevites were so ready to change.
18:38
SPEAKER_01: The problem was Jonah, and I think that we are in many ways, a lot of us are Jonah's in that.
18:44
SPEAKER_01: Like we just anticipate certain things and we don't trust that God knows what he's doing.
18:49
SPEAKER_01: And so for me, it's just been so fun to be um, it's not fun in the middle of a hard conversation, but to see what God's gonna, what God does through it is just amazing.
19:01
SPEAKER_01: And I I think when enough people said to me, Wow, that's incredible what happened from that.
19:07
SPEAKER_01: You must be really special.
19:08
SPEAKER_01: And I like I know me and I know how not special I am that I thought, okay, I need to help break this down for people so they can have they can see this too.
19:18
SPEAKER_01: It's so fun to see God work.
19:21
SPEAKER_01: It's it's just being witness to his transforming power is is a is a blast.
19:27
SPEAKER_01: So I wanted more people to feel free to experience that.
19:32
SPEAKER_00: What do you think it is?
19:33
SPEAKER_00: Is it just human nature?
19:34
SPEAKER_00: Is it our culture?
19:35
SPEAKER_00: What feeds into this need to be comfortable with our conversations and avoid the more difficult ones?
19:41
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean it's definitely cultural.
19:44
SPEAKER_01: We have kind of an idea.
19:45
SPEAKER_01: I say at one point in the book, it's not about being nice, it's about being like Jesus.
19:49
SPEAKER_01: We somewhere we got this idea that Christians are nice, and that's not anywhere in the Bible.
19:54
SPEAKER_01: We're kind, we're loving, but like Jesus wasn't always nice, he was straightforward with the truth and made people uncomfortable.
20:02
SPEAKER_01: So we have to revisit the actual Jesus, not the Jesus that people tell us exists or that we see on social media.
20:10
SPEAKER_01: And then uh there's we have an enemy, we have an enemy who is try is constantly bombarding us with lies about hard conversations and instilling fear and doubt.
20:22
SPEAKER_01: And so, because hard conversations usually do lead to transformation and change and or people being together through grief or you know, just building up of the body of Christ.
20:35
SPEAKER_01: So it's it's a natural area where the enemy would invest a lot of energy with deception.
20:40
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's good.
20:41
SPEAKER_00: How do you think when you're maybe even coaching young kids or adults?
20:46
SPEAKER_00: I I try to live by this rule and impart this to my kids.
20:50
SPEAKER_00: It we need to be kind, our words need to be kind, beneficial, and necessary.
20:56
SPEAKER_00: And I believe those can hold true into uh hard conversations.
21:01
SPEAKER_00: So how do we merge those two together?
21:03
SPEAKER_00: Because I think sometimes, unfortunately, our society actually goes to one extreme or the other.
21:09
SPEAKER_00: And but I think they can merge.
21:12
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think that that's the sort of the speaking the truth in love kind um conversation.
21:19
SPEAKER_01: Somewhere along the line, we the church started to divide between churches that were loving and churches that were truthful and or congregations that were truthful and loving.
21:31
SPEAKER_01: And and that's a paradigm that doesn't really exist in Christ.
21:36
SPEAKER_01: Jesus is completely loving and completely truthful.
21:40
SPEAKER_01: So I think that the more we pull away and look at Jesus and look at um the fact that there is nothing there's nothing unloving about saying to someone you're doing something wrong.
21:55
SPEAKER_01: There's nothing unloving about that.
21:57
SPEAKER_01: But it it takes a lot of work and a lot of reminder.
22:01
SPEAKER_01: To keep that up in a society that's telling us that they know what love is, and in fact, our God isn't loving, which is such an affront to like since our God is love.
22:12
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
22:13
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
22:13
SPEAKER_01: So we need to, we need to get we need to say, no, we're taking this back.
22:18
SPEAKER_01: We are taking love back.
22:19
SPEAKER_01: We are taking truth back.
22:21
SPEAKER_01: And there's no parrot, there's no paradox in being both.
22:25
SPEAKER_01: Children have no problem speaking truth to people they love.
22:28
SPEAKER_00: They don't Oh, isn't that the truth?
22:31
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, right.
22:32
SPEAKER_01: I mean, they don't see any conflict in it at all.
22:35
SPEAKER_01: And and they can be very loving and truthful at the same time.
22:38
SPEAKER_01: But Jesus says we need to become more like children.
22:41
SPEAKER_01: I think that that's one of those places where we do.
22:44
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's a good point.
22:46
SPEAKER_00: To um where there's it's purely motivated by love in their honesty and sincerity of it.
22:52
SPEAKER_00: I thought your your little story there at the very beginning about you, I think you said you were nine when you went and talked to your dad or something like that.
22:59
SPEAKER_00: Oh yeah, yeah.
23:00
SPEAKER_00: You had such guts to talk to your dad, especially probably.
23:06
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I grew up in a home for sure that probably that would have been dubbed talking back or some form of disobedience, but you were bold and courageous and you spoke, and it came from just complete and sincere love and a desire to have relationship.
23:19
SPEAKER_00: And I think that those are a few ways that we could check our motivations at the door before we're about to have our conversation.
23:25
SPEAKER_00: Is this coming from a place of love?
23:27
SPEAKER_00: Is this coming from you know a motivation for reconciliation and restoring a relationship, whether them unto the Lord or between us or between others?
23:39
SPEAKER_01: Sure.
23:39
SPEAKER_01: And that conversation, you know, my dad was just someone, for whatever reason, he did not acknowledge me very much or talk to me.
23:46
SPEAKER_01: He was just a very busy person.
23:48
SPEAKER_01: And um I when I was when I was 10, I went to him and said I was gonna uh like I had decided that he was in a coma and I was going to just talk to him uh because I'd heard, I must have watched a TV show, I'd heard that people in comas uh could still hear people.
24:04
SPEAKER_01: So I was going to trust that the father I loved and needed was in there, and I was just gonna talk to him when I felt like it, and he didn't have to respond, which he didn't, like he did not even acknowledge that day that I'd spoken to him in his recliner chair.
24:17
SPEAKER_00: That's so hard.
24:18
SPEAKER_01: Um God gave me a reframe for our relationship so that I was able to function within it, and and it was not a successful conversation.
24:26
SPEAKER_01: He didn't acknowledge my presence, and I was um 29.
24:31
SPEAKER_01: Like we had some conversations through my 20s, but I was 29 before he really woke up to relationships.
24:40
SPEAKER_01: So 19 years of not really seeing a big breakthrough, and yet uh when my son was born, my dad you know, something about that just woke my father up to relationships.
24:50
SPEAKER_01: So we have been very close for the last you know 30, 35 years.
24:54
SPEAKER_00: What amazing testimony of staying power, too, that you didn't sever it, but you I mean, really, you adapted to be able to operate functionally and have, you know, you and probably by having that conversation you lifted that burden off, right?
25:09
SPEAKER_00: You took off that you know anxiousness where you just said it was out there and then he could do it with what he wants, and he was responsible for him, and it took that ownership.
25:19
SPEAKER_00: That's really amazing because I think probably many of us have been faced in those situations and have just kind of like washed our hands and said, forget it.
25:27
SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna avoid that tough conversation, the R conversation.
25:30
SPEAKER_00: I'm not gonna, I'll just not have the relationship.
25:33
SPEAKER_01: Sure, and there are times to do that.
25:35
SPEAKER_01: There are people that are really evil, you know, have evil intentions or have uh severe mental health problems, and there are times when we need to set a boundary that just like um David fled from Saul when he started throwing spears.
25:51
SPEAKER_01: We do something there.
25:53
SPEAKER_01: Like really firm boundaries because sometimes even communication with someone who's toxic is um is not healthy.
26:00
SPEAKER_01: So I had I had that happen over the one person in my life who have I have pretty firm boundaries around.
26:05
SPEAKER_01: And I got an email when uh uh um this person must have noticed my book being advertised and said, uh, you know, I get an email saying, You need to come talk to me.
26:14
SPEAKER_01: Like, isn't it ironic that you're out there preaching about hard conversations and yet you won't have one with me?
26:20
SPEAKER_01: And the Lord was so kind because I was studying Nehemiah when I got that email.
26:26
SPEAKER_01: And yeah, like I like at you know, Nehemiah had that people say, You need to come talk to us, and the Lord let them know, no, that is just for your harm, you need to keep at the work.
26:36
SPEAKER_01: And so it was a good you know, reminder for me, like the enemy is gonna look for ways in, and we need to stick with God's word and sometimes just say, you know, no, the like we we don't need to talk if you I like because my rule with this person is if you want to talk in front of a pastor or a therapist, I will come talk.
26:54
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but you and I are not going to work this through by ourselves.
26:58
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, that's good.
26:59
SPEAKER_00: I think I mean there's absolutely those circumstances I'm aware of some good friends who many of good friends who are in that sort of thing, maybe even with their marriage and that sort of thing, where it has to go to that level.
27:10
SPEAKER_00: It's you know, they've had the hard conversations to how set the boundaries, and that has put then the ownership on them, and until they can come forward and put it put the conversation in front of others, then it's just not meant to be had.
27:24
SPEAKER_00: So that's really good.
27:26
SPEAKER_00: What's some ways to know that maybe kind of at that point where you've done what you can and I mean kind of given with your dad that you you didn't walk away from the relationship, but you kind of thought, well, I've done what I can and I just need to leave it be.
27:43
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think that it's usually not a decision that you make alone, you make it after talking with the Lord because too many people write people off too quickly.
27:52
SPEAKER_01: That's that's one thing.
27:54
SPEAKER_01: They, you know, one conversation it goes badly, no, I'm done.
27:57
SPEAKER_01: Well, that's that's really not a good test of it.
28:00
SPEAKER_01: So you need to have every hard conversation with another person starts with hard conversations with God and is followed with hard conversations with God, you really being in, you know, in concerted prayer about it, not just I don't know, just not just like, okay, thank you, Lord, please bless this conversation, but working through that.
28:17
SPEAKER_01: And then with a trusted, like another mature Christian friend or pastor or advisor, someone that you say, you know, like, here's what I've done uh in this to restore this relationship, here's all the ways I've I've done.
28:30
SPEAKER_01: Is there another step I should take?
28:32
SPEAKER_01: What do you you know, just having another set of impartial eyes on it is important, like and and to do that in private, you don't need to be, you know, like we there if it's a sin matter, you need to follow Matthew 18 and go to that person and then involve someone else and then involve the church.
28:47
SPEAKER_01: But a lot of matters are not necessarily sin, they're ca, you know, just ongoing personality conflict or ongoing related relationship conflicts.
28:56
SPEAKER_02: Right, yeah.
28:56
SPEAKER_01: But still, like it's it, you know, you don't want to talk to 27 friends about it.
29:00
SPEAKER_01: You don't want to bring it to your, you know, like I'm gonna call my best friend, I'm gonna call my sister, I'm gonna call it.
29:08
SPEAKER_01: Right, right.
29:09
SPEAKER_01: So I think that just getting counsel, uh, wise counsel about it before you set and then letting the person know, here I'm setting this boundary, and this is why, and here's how here's the way out of this.
29:20
SPEAKER_01: Here's here's the pathway if you want to change a relationship.
29:24
SPEAKER_01: Here's our pathway.
29:25
SPEAKER_00: That's good.
29:26
SPEAKER_00: Well, in this season of Lent, some of the conversations we've been having is uh about lament, and I think a core piece of that is having hard conversations with the Lord.
29:37
SPEAKER_00: And how do you take this this idea and translate it first, or maybe practice it even first with the Lord?
29:45
SPEAKER_00: Because there are a lot of things that we have questions about and we want to talk about, but we maybe don't because we're afraid of the answer, or we're not sure if he can handle it.
29:56
SPEAKER_01: We're not sure that God can handle it to have the hard conversation.
30:00
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
30:00
SPEAKER_01: I there are a lot of things.
30:02
SPEAKER_01: I was just writing about it today.
30:04
SPEAKER_01: I spent a year of my life really just so sad every day.
30:10
SPEAKER_01: Um things had really not gone the way I expected them to go.
30:15
SPEAKER_01: We had moved into a house I didn't want to move into, it was completely unfinished.
30:20
SPEAKER_01: My my last child was graduating from homeschool.
30:23
SPEAKER_01: That was just a normal life thing, but I had to take a job that I didn't want to take, and my husband lost his job.
30:30
SPEAKER_01: He was diagnosed with a major illness.
30:33
SPEAKER_01: Like life was not so hard in the right direction.
30:36
SPEAKER_01: And so um, while I was functioning on the outside and doing all the things, on the inside every day, I was just weeping to the Lord and mourning what I thought was gonna go was gonna happen.
30:49
SPEAKER_01: And and at first I felt kind of guilty about that, and I apologized a lot to the Lord, and then finally I just had to say the Lord, okay, so I love you and I trust that all things work together for good, but I am just really sad.
31:05
SPEAKER_01: This is so I just want to be sad with you in front of you.
31:08
SPEAKER_01: I don't want to feel like I have I have to hide that from you, which is what I thought I was, I was trying to kind of clean up the sadness and clean up the frustration.
31:18
SPEAKER_01: And and when I was going to him, I was almost being dishonest.
31:22
SPEAKER_01: Like it's fine, I'll work through it.
31:24
SPEAKER_01: I trust you.
31:24
SPEAKER_01: Instead, I had to go, okay, this is really not fine.
31:28
SPEAKER_01: I do trust you, I still believe all the things, but I I I I have I'm just sad and there's I don't know what to do about it.
31:35
SPEAKER_01: I can't fix it.
31:37
SPEAKER_01: I think that that was a big breakthrough with God in me and him saying, You don't need I know you can't fix it.
31:43
SPEAKER_01: Like that's yeah, you're the only one that didn't know that.
31:46
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
31:47
SPEAKER_01: And so then I I could let myself just be mournful, just be like, I thought, like, what about this?
31:53
SPEAKER_01: I thought that was part of your plan.
31:56
SPEAKER_01: And and and I didn't feel rejected by him, I felt accepted.
32:00
SPEAKER_01: And and I could see in scripture Jeremiah having these hard conversations, and um, I love Lamentations, uh, chapter three.
32:08
SPEAKER_01: It's uh it's one of my go-to books.
32:12
SPEAKER_01: Even now, as my book launches, my dad, you know, my dad's such a part of this book and such a part of my life story, and he is nearing death.
32:20
SPEAKER_01: Um he's on hospice, and so like like it's the best of times and the worst of times.
32:26
SPEAKER_01: They're really excited about watching this book because there's so much good happening, and I live across the street from my parents.
32:32
SPEAKER_01: I was over there earlier with a hospice nurse, and wow.
32:35
SPEAKER_01: Um, so you know, but just to let God um like I think we try so hard, a lot of us just try too hard to be something instead of just being what we are in front of God and trusting Him with that.
32:50
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that is for sure the hard conversation that won't fail, and that we can trust a kind response and and move toward us and not away from us.
33:01
SPEAKER_00: That's really beautiful.
33:02
SPEAKER_01: I think that gets in our way of because like some hard conversations are about conflict and some are about confronting someone on sin, but people find being with people in the middle of trials, that's what they they see that as a hard conversation.
33:18
SPEAKER_01: A lot of us aren't with others through the things we're experiencing because we're so afraid that we need to have an answer for them.
33:25
SPEAKER_00: Right.
33:26
SPEAKER_01: So we don't visit someone who just got out of a mental hospital, or we don't visit someone who's in the hospital or who is has a dying family member because we don't have an answer.
33:37
SPEAKER_01: And uh in the book, I encourage you like you don't need the answer, you don't need to be an answer.
33:43
SPEAKER_01: You have Jesus in you, and they need Jesus, so you just have to show up absolutely there.
33:48
SPEAKER_01: And I, you know, I give some tips about what to do because of course complete silence is awkward for people for everybody, yeah.
33:57
SPEAKER_01: So, you know, like I talk about different things that you can say, different um things that you know, you could bring a book, read some poems, read something funny, read the newspaper, read you know, find things to do, but let's be with one another.
34:10
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's good.
34:11
SPEAKER_00: I have really good friends who through multiple different times, them pursuing me, even if I couldn't reciprocate their offer or respond to their offer, just them asking and then letting me know that they were there in those hard times, um that meant the world.
34:28
SPEAKER_00: And just saying, tell me more.
34:30
SPEAKER_00: Tell me more about how that feels, you know, right.
34:32
SPEAKER_00: What is it about this that's really hard?
34:34
SPEAKER_00: And then what how can we support you in this time?
34:38
SPEAKER_00: I mean, those just really simple questions were made a world of difference.
34:44
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and say to someone, I might say the wrong thing.
34:47
SPEAKER_01: I've never experienced I've never been bipolar or I've never lost a child.
34:52
SPEAKER_01: I, you know, I I've hesitated to come because I'm so afraid of saying the wrong thing, because I really love you and I would not want to hurt you.
34:59
SPEAKER_01: So if if I say the wrong thing, please just wave at me or tap the table and I'll know and I'll be quiet and we can, you know, redeem the conversation.
35:09
SPEAKER_01: So you know, giving them permission to say, Oh, that's that's not helpful.
35:13
SPEAKER_00: I'm not comfortable with this, right?
35:15
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
35:15
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
35:16
SPEAKER_00: Uh ahead of time, just saying, you know, listen, this is all coming from a a posture of love.
35:22
SPEAKER_00: I may not get it right because we don't know.
35:26
SPEAKER_00: I think that's really, really good.
35:28
SPEAKER_00: So in this season of Lint, I mean, you're um you're experiencing that tension of the here and the not yet for your dad, and um, just that waiting and also the hope, but very mingled with the sorrow.
35:42
SPEAKER_00: Um what's some of the practices that you've done in years past or that you're looking forward to in this year to practice for Lint as you just ready your heart and your mind?
35:51
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think that um one thing that made a huge difference in my life, uh, maybe like follow that year that I struggled with so much sorrow and and frustration was to take a Sabbath rest every week.
36:06
SPEAKER_01: That became a firm commitment in my life, just 20 hours from sundown to sundown, where you know, for me that looks like there's worship in there, but I also we go out to eat, my husband and I.
36:18
SPEAKER_01: That's sort of our like, let's just you know, eat something great and I read books or watch movies or nap, but I don't do anything that resembles work for me.
36:27
SPEAKER_01: I had to like even realize that writing is work, so yeah, you know, just we all have to figure out what that thing is, yes.
36:35
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and that that's crucial through um every season, but especially I think in Lent when you're really trying to make space for the Lord and to look at your life.
36:45
SPEAKER_01: I another thing that I've been challenged to do recently, I was visiting a church and the pastor did a wonderful sermon about all the media we consume.
36:54
SPEAKER_01: And and at first I thought, well, you know, like I'm almost 58, I'm not really watching any shows that people would disapprove of.
37:01
SPEAKER_01: I don't, you know, I'm not listening to music where people swear.
37:04
SPEAKER_02: Like, where is like not a gamer?
37:06
SPEAKER_01: Like he was hitting all the you know, all that stuff.
37:09
SPEAKER_01: Obviously, yeah, and that yet I felt the Lord saying, There's something for you in this, in this, listen to it.
37:16
SPEAKER_01: And so what I decided was like for the next week, I'm just gonna let go of all media.
37:22
SPEAKER_01: I'm not, you know, I'm not gonna be on anything, and I'm just gonna see what the Lord has to say to me.
37:27
SPEAKER_01: And it helped me to see how much calmer I was.
37:32
SPEAKER_01: Interesting, and how much more space there was for God to talk.
37:36
SPEAKER_01: And I realized it's not just uh like you know, you can watch the Hallmark channel or like Christian radio listen to Christian radio, and still stuff's coming at you.
37:46
SPEAKER_01: So it's not that it's bad stuff, it's that sometimes we just do too much and we need to make some space for the Lord.
37:53
SPEAKER_01: So that was a really wonderful exercise.
37:55
SPEAKER_01: And I have I definitely haven't got back to the level of watching or listening to things that I did before that week.
38:01
SPEAKER_00: It's amazing how much we do consume and all the intake that's available.
38:05
SPEAKER_00: So it is so important.
38:06
SPEAKER_00: I found myself too, just taking those moments throughout the day, turn it all off, stop and pause, you know, maybe even if there's kids running around, we can still find that inner quiet with the Lord and the connection instead of because sometimes a lot of it becomes numbing, and we're just drowning out the conversation the Lord has really wanting to have with us, and instead we're kind of going to all these things to fill that empty space.
38:31
SPEAKER_00: That's really cool.
38:32
SPEAKER_00: Sure.
38:33
SPEAKER_00: How about for Easter?
38:35
SPEAKER_00: What does that look like for your family?
38:37
SPEAKER_00: What's maybe a favorite tradition that you look forward to every year?
38:41
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's when I for a long time it was Easter sunrise service.
38:44
SPEAKER_01: I loved Easter sunrise.
38:47
SPEAKER_00: I haven't done it in years.
38:48
SPEAKER_00: I was just talking to someone about that too.
38:50
SPEAKER_01: I'm like, oh yeah, I have not done that in years either, but I I loved it when my kids were growing up.
38:56
SPEAKER_01: We would we had best friends, we would all always get together after church for just that time together.
39:02
SPEAKER_01: So that was a favorite thing.
39:04
SPEAKER_01: So I like I'm in that phase of life where I'm shifting tradition.
39:08
SPEAKER_01: Like I like it's different because now my kids are grown and they're growing their families.
39:13
SPEAKER_01: So we're in that season where every holiday is just a little different because oh, now there's a new person here, oh now there's a new marriage there, oh now there's kids.
39:23
SPEAKER_01: There's, you know, my this year was very different because each holiday we thought was gonna be dad's last.
39:29
SPEAKER_01: And so, like, and even at Christmas, he couldn't handle everybody together, so we went in shifts.
39:35
SPEAKER_01: Um, so like I'm in the season of of saying, okay, what's um, you know, being open to the fact that my traditions are lovely, but um, but Jesus, I I'm being open to where Jesus shows up even when I can't hold to what I imagined a holiday would look like.
39:53
SPEAKER_01: And so there's gonna be uh, you know, I anticipate that dad won't be here this Easter.
39:58
SPEAKER_01: It'll be a whole that'll be a whole new shift for us.
40:00
SPEAKER_00: Right, right.
40:02
SPEAKER_00: Well, with that in mind, um, just like keeping things simple and fluid, um, it sounds like maybe you have some grandkids that you get to maybe fill some Easter eggs or Easter baskets with candy.
40:16
SPEAKER_00: What is it that you make sure you buy so you can have a few of the extra in the bag, candy-wise?
40:22
SPEAKER_01: That's funny.
40:22
SPEAKER_01: I'm a big like books.
40:24
SPEAKER_01: So I have two.
40:25
SPEAKER_01: My my son is engaged to a wonderful woman named Jessica, and she brings with her two little boys who call us grandma and opa, grandma and opa, because my husband that's the Dutch tradition.
40:36
SPEAKER_01: But um, so I always do.
40:38
SPEAKER_01: We did the resurrection eggs.
40:40
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
40:40
SPEAKER_01: Do you have the resurrection eggs?
40:42
SPEAKER_01: It was really fun for me to buy them resurrection eggs, and my son was like, Oh, I remember these, and watching him explain them.
40:49
SPEAKER_01: That was really fun.
40:49
SPEAKER_01: Oh, that's it.
40:50
SPEAKER_01: And then um Bibles at their age and books.
40:53
SPEAKER_01: I'm just a big one for books.
40:55
SPEAKER_01: And then I like getting um like dog tags or something with Bible verses because they're boys, they're very boys and they like, you know, they like having that Bible verse that's you know, I like how picking verses for them and saying, I've you know, this is a verse that God gave me for you.
41:11
SPEAKER_01: I want them to know how special they are.
41:13
SPEAKER_00: Oh, I like that manly idea.
41:15
SPEAKER_00: That's great.
41:16
SPEAKER_00: That's that's a good way to get verses on our boys.
41:20
SPEAKER_00: Fantastic idea.
41:22
SPEAKER_00: I love it.
41:22
SPEAKER_00: Well, thank you for just the book.
41:25
SPEAKER_00: And I mean, I know you poured a ton into this, um, to this work, and I think for those who are looking to maybe they know they have some hard conversations in front of them and they're looking for some wisdom and direction how to do it, or maybe they're provoked and realize I am not having the conversations I need to have because I'm comfortable with being comfortable.
41:48
SPEAKER_00: And so this is just a great way to help us break out of that and um do that.
41:54
SPEAKER_00: But before before you go, is there maybe just for the mama listening or you know, the friend who's on the treadmill and or heading to work, and they're they're like, Okay, the book's on my radar, I'm gonna get it.
42:08
SPEAKER_00: But what could they do today um with maybe some of the hard conversations that they have that have come to mind as we've talked?
42:17
SPEAKER_01: So a lot of people are getting challenges these days from either from kids or from co-workers, from angry family members, people angry with the church.
42:27
SPEAKER_01: So I think uh I always tell people, like I love the phrase before I answer.
42:32
SPEAKER_01: So, like what what happens when someone asks us a question, and that's sort of a challenging question, we you know, we we get anxious and and maybe even some even fearful.
42:43
SPEAKER_01: So if you say, you know what, before I answer, can I just ask?
42:47
SPEAKER_01: And then ask, so what you know, why do you care about what the Bible has to say about that?
42:51
SPEAKER_01: Or where is this question coming from?
42:53
SPEAKER_01: Why is this important to you?
42:55
SPEAKER_01: Why would why is it important for you to ask me this question?
42:58
SPEAKER_00: That's good.
42:59
SPEAKER_01: Really listen to their answer.
43:00
SPEAKER_01: That's gonna open a whole door for you.
43:02
SPEAKER_01: It gives you time to calm down and sort of, you know, pray in your mind for for the Lord's peace and and just listen.
43:10
SPEAKER_01: Maybe they're coming from a really honest place.
43:12
SPEAKER_01: If they're coming from a place of like, well, I just wanted to hear what stupid answer the church had, it's fine to say, you know what, this is a really sacred conversation for me.
43:21
SPEAKER_01: And so, like, if you like I'd I'd love to have it with you, but only if you're serious about it, not if you're just looking for an argument.
43:27
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but a lot of people aren't, they're coming from a really honest place, and it's important to find out what that place is before you respond.
43:33
SPEAKER_00: That's good.
43:34
SPEAKER_00: Because it doesn't need to be a sound bite, both with the church and us as believers, and needs to be a conversation, and that's so key.
43:41
SPEAKER_00: And so conversation begins with lots of questions.
43:45
SPEAKER_00: That's awesome.
43:46
SPEAKER_01: And I encourage people to read this this book with your kids, and there's different exercises to practice as a family.
43:53
SPEAKER_01: You know, learn, relearn how to have hard any kind of conversation as a family, and then invite people in to join you in a practice.
44:02
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's great.
44:04
SPEAKER_00: Thank you, Lori, so much.
44:05
SPEAKER_00: I really appreciate it.
44:08
SPEAKER_00: I hope you feel encouraged and have renewed confidence about the hard conversations you may be currently facing.
44:15
SPEAKER_00: You never know how someone's life might be forever changed when you are willing to ask the right questions and have conversations that matter.
44:23
SPEAKER_00: You can get Lori's book on our website and Amazon.
44:26
SPEAKER_00: I'll put those links in the show notes.
44:29
SPEAKER_00: Be sure and stay tuned because we are sharing more stirring conversations during this whole lynch season to encourage us as we reflect, remember, and celebrate Rebirth.
44:39
SPEAKER_00: We love to have you share these episodes with your friends and family and join this wholehearted community.
44:44
SPEAKER_00: Also, our 100th episode is coming up at the end of May.
44:48
SPEAKER_00: I can't believe how many amazing conversations there are to have.
44:51
SPEAKER_00: I would love to celebrate by reaching 100 reviews on iTunes so as to let others know which episodes are your favorite and why you like the podcast.
45:00
SPEAKER_00: We only need about 60 more, and I know we have thousands of downloads a month, so it should be easy to reach 100 in no time.
45:06
SPEAKER_00: Let's invite others to join us as we continue to pursue perspective, purpose, and plans for a simply wholehearted life.