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Holidays gone bad: Notorious Christmas crimes · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace on Serious x M Triumph
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Speaker 1: Channel one thirty two. There was a family party being
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Speaker 1: held at the Residents on No Crafts, attended by about
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Speaker 1: twenty five people. Through the edge of the door. He
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Speaker 1: was dressed in a Santa suit and brought with him
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Speaker 1: a Poe made device BIS basically consisted of two tanks,
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Speaker 1: one which contained either OXN CEO two and the other,
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Speaker 1: smaller tank appeared to contain racy turn He walked up
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Speaker 1: to the door. Once he knocked on the door, ring
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Speaker 1: the doorbell and gained entrance. He immediately was confronted with
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Speaker 1: an eight year old child who thought Santa Claus had
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Speaker 1: come to the house. Uh. He shot her once in
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Speaker 1: the face and then proceeded inside the residents. What is
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Speaker 1: he wearing? Okay, let me know what. The Santa Claus
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Speaker 1: suit that he was wearing dead melt onto his body.
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Speaker 1: What is it about the holidays, specifically Christmas that can
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Speaker 1: engender so much love and goodwill and then on the
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Speaker 1: other hand, at the other end of the spectrum generate
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Speaker 1: so much hate and animosity and tension. I'm talking specifically
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Speaker 1: about holidays gone bad. Let's just start with a man
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Speaker 1: a husband, a father who ends up making a home
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Speaker 1: made flame thrower, goes to the home and goes berserk.
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Speaker 1: And let me remind everybody, this guy, Bruce Pardo, as
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Speaker 1: I recall, was an aeronautical engineer. Take a listen to
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Speaker 1: this nine one one callow about your health right now?
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Speaker 1: The two houses down on the google. Okay, at your house? Now, hecause,
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Speaker 1: what do you think your name is? Bird? Sojo? Okay,
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Speaker 1: and hell I eat you guys? Who is he to you?
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Speaker 1: He was, he's play as brother and like he's they're
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Speaker 1: close to say now, okay on one second, Okay, he said,
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Speaker 1: I don't know who I know. I know man am
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Speaker 1: the county. Okay, your whole family both any fight? I know?
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Speaker 1: I know? Okay, be off there trying to get to
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Speaker 1: you guys. Okay. He came in through the entrance to
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Speaker 1: the door and there's a set of plasture and I
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Speaker 1: didn't see from when he shot. I heard the shots
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Speaker 1: and they were like poppings, and I wasn't sure what
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Speaker 1: it was. So we all and we were started panicking
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Speaker 1: and running. So we all dove under the tenue. Some
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Speaker 1: of us do with some of us, but I don't
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Speaker 1: know who My mom caused him on the map. There't there? Okay,
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Speaker 1: what is she wearing? What is she wearing? How you
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Speaker 1: changed his coat from Santa Claus? Okay, let me know.
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Speaker 1: I'm lappings. The man who dresses as Santa slaughters nine
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Speaker 1: people at a Christmas party using what else I mean,
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Speaker 1: of course, a homemade flamethrower, as they quote Christmas present
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Speaker 1: to set his house on fire. I want to go
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Speaker 1: out to John Linley, Crime Stories investigative reporter. This guy
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Speaker 1: was no idiot. I mean, he is an engineer that
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Speaker 1: creates a homemade flamethrower and then the qu de Gras
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Speaker 1: wraps it and Christmas wrap and puts a bow on
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Speaker 1: it to get it into the home. He shows up unannounced, John,
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Speaker 1: what exactly happened? Well, I'd love to begin with a
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Speaker 1: love story, and that's of Joseph and Alicia Ortega. They
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Speaker 1: had been married for fifty two years, had created a
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Speaker 1: huge family that just became bigger and bigger with each
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Speaker 1: passing year. Joe and Alicia love nothing more than each
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Speaker 1: Christmas Eve to gather their entire family with them in Covina, California,
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Speaker 1: a suburb of Los Angeles. The children and their families
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Speaker 1: would begin arriving early in the day. The celebration would
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Speaker 1: go well into the night, with the house packed to
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Speaker 1: the gills with relatives. Later in the evening, the adults
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Speaker 1: would play a lively game of poker while the children played.
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Speaker 1: Now keep this scene in your head. For many years
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Speaker 1: a neighbor would dress as Santa, ring the doorbell and
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Speaker 1: surprise the children with a bunch of presents. So on December,
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Speaker 1: all seemed quite normal when the doorbell rang around eleven
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Speaker 1: thirty PM and one of the younger grandchildren, an eight
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Speaker 1: year old girl, answered the door to see Santa standing there.
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Speaker 1: As the family was about to discover though this was
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Speaker 1: anything but a storybook visit it from St. Nick. Just
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Speaker 1: moments after the door opened, the man dressed as Santa
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Speaker 1: pulls out two handguns and immediately shoots the little girl.
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Speaker 1: He then steps over first she's the eight year old girl, yes,
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Speaker 1: right right as he enters the house. He then steps
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Speaker 1: over her enters the house, he moves back and forth
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Speaker 1: between shooting and discriminately and then shooting some family members
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Speaker 1: point blank, execution style. There are approximately twenty five or
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Speaker 1: so family members or extended or taga family and the
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Speaker 1: house that night so there was mass chaos as sisters
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Speaker 1: and brothers, cousins, niece's nephews run in all directions trying
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Speaker 1: to get away from the shooter. In the midst of
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Speaker 1: all this, the shooter stops. He stops firing and walks
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Speaker 1: over to this large wrapped present that he has rolled
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Speaker 1: in with him under that festive paper and the box
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Speaker 1: is as you men, and a homemade flamethrower. He begins
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Speaker 1: spraying what is discovered to be racing fuel, high octane
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Speaker 1: fuel around the house. There's a huge explosion and the
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Speaker 1: house is quickly engulfed in flames. The last of the
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Speaker 1: living family members are seen jumping out of the windows
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Speaker 1: to escape the blaze. Guys, Amazingly, this this flamethrower is
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Speaker 1: actually full of high octane car racing fuel and it's
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Speaker 1: spewed around the home to catch the home on fire.
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Speaker 1: Okay with me, our special guest Joe Scott Morgan, death investigator,
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Speaker 1: Cheryl McCullum, cold case investigator and the director of the
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Speaker 1: Cold Case Institute, Crime Stories reporter John Limley, and joining
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Speaker 1: us today. Dr Carol Lieberman, psychiatrist, radio and TV talk
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Speaker 1: show personality, bestselling author. She's a keynote speaker and expert
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Speaker 1: witness on many subjects. Dr Carol Lieberman, it is just
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Speaker 1: such a thrill to have you with us. Before I
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Speaker 1: go any further with the flamethrower, can I ask you something,
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Speaker 1: Dr Lieberman, no offense, John Allen and Joe Scott? What
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Speaker 1: is wrong with men? Really? I mean, the thought of
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Speaker 1: going and creating a homemade flamethrower and wrapping it in
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Speaker 1: Christmas wrap in a bow. I just that would never
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Speaker 1: have dawned on me. I mean, I guess moms are
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Speaker 1: too busy raising children and running around town as a
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Speaker 1: chauffeur and working. Right, who has time to make a flamethrower?
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Speaker 1: That's right? Well, you know it's actually a metaphor for
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Speaker 1: just how much rage Bruce pardo Head towards his wife.
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Speaker 1: They had just divorced a week before, and um, you know,
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Speaker 1: which is so typical in all of these holiday killings. Uh,
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Speaker 1: there is so much rage, so much family resentment that um,
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Speaker 1: you know this is this was his way of really
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Speaker 1: showing her just just how burned up he was. I mean,
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Speaker 1: but to go to so much effort to create a
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Speaker 1: homemade flame thrower, I don't even know what that would
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Speaker 1: look like I'm imagining, imagining some sort of scepteral looking thing.
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Speaker 1: I don't even know what that would be. Well, I'm
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Speaker 1: not really sure either exactly what it would look like.
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Speaker 1: But um, you know this, he was so angry. You
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Speaker 1: know that you mentioned that she had children. During their divorce,
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Speaker 1: the judge decided that he was going to pay for
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Speaker 1: her children and also pay her somebody as well. And
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Speaker 1: this was when he finally decided that he was resentful
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Speaker 1: towards her during the marriage for having to pay for
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Speaker 1: her children. And then when they got divorced and the
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Speaker 1: judge said that he still had to pay for them,
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Speaker 1: that was too much. Bruce Pardo actually suffered third degree
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Speaker 1: burns on both arms and it appears as Santa Claus
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Speaker 1: suit he was wearing melted onto his body. The dichotomy
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Speaker 1: of coming as Father Christmas, Santa he is nothing but
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Speaker 1: loving and full of good, cheer and merriment. The dichotomy
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Speaker 1: doctor Carol Lieberman of him dressing as Santa with murder
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Speaker 1: on his mind? What does that mean? Where does from?
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Speaker 1: Where does that spring? That is a particular betrayal. Um,
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Speaker 1: you know, it's like clowns who kill we society of
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Speaker 1: society love Santa, love clowns. Most people love clowns and
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Speaker 1: um so for so for someone dressed in a suit
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Speaker 1: like in a Santa suit, it isn't especially I mean, yes,
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Speaker 1: he was doing it so that he could get into
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Speaker 1: the house and so on, but also I think there
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Speaker 1: was a metaphor um he was trying to say that
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Speaker 1: he didn't want to be Santa perpetually for her and
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Speaker 1: her children. He didn't want to keep playing Santa in
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Speaker 1: the sense of keep supporting them. You know what's interesting
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Speaker 1: about this is John Lemway. Isn't it true that he
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Speaker 1: had no criminal record whatsoever before this? That is indeed
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Speaker 1: the case, which just made it all the more uh
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Speaker 1: impossible for them to figure out exactly what was going on.
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Speaker 1: Police speculate that the motive of the attack, as we've hinted,
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Speaker 1: was related to not only the divorce, but a spade
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Speaker 1: of problems that Bruce Pardot had encountered over the months prior.
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Speaker 1: As we've said, his wife of one year, Sylvia, had
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Speaker 1: settled for divorce just one week before this incident. Bruce
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Speaker 1: had been fired from his job as an electrical engineer
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Speaker 1: just in July as well. The couple had wed, but
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Speaker 1: soon grew apart. After their marriage, Mr Pardeau refused to
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Speaker 1: open a joint account with his wife. He also expected
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Speaker 1: his wife to take care of their three children with
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Speaker 1: her own finances. Weren't they his biological children or now? Yes, However,
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Speaker 1: there was another child that they discover exists through a
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Speaker 1: woman uh that he was with before. And this is
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Speaker 1: an interesting uh scenario here. Apparently this child that he
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Speaker 1: had with this woman earlier in his life. Uh, he
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Speaker 1: had been at home alone with the child. The child
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Speaker 1: had gotten out of its crib, uh, entered the swimming
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Speaker 1: pool and almost died, did not, but was really left
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Speaker 1: in a vegetative state. Oh my goodness. So I want
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Speaker 1: you to hear what the police chief there in Covina
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Speaker 1: has to say. Again. This happened about pm on Christmas Eve.
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Speaker 1: There was a family party being held at the residents
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Speaker 1: on No Crest, attended by about twenty five people. It
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Speaker 1: appears that Mr Pardod drove to the location and parked
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Speaker 1: his car in the driveway one house east. At the party,
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Speaker 1: he was dressed in a Santa suit and brought with
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Speaker 1: him a homemade device which will release pictures of that
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Speaker 1: later for the press. Device basically consisted of two tanks,
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Speaker 1: one which contained either auction or CEO two and the
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Speaker 1: other smaller tank appeared to contain racing fuel. Um he
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Speaker 1: had was a homemade device that was basically built where
12:42
Speaker 1: once he mixed those two items, it would turn into
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Speaker 1: a vapor or atomize, and he was able to deliver
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Speaker 1: that inside the residents. He walked up to the door.
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Speaker 1: Once he knocked on the door, rang the doorbell, and
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Speaker 1: gained entrance. He immediately was confronted with an eight year
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Speaker 1: old child who thought Santa Claus had come to the house. Uh.
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Speaker 1: He shotter once in the face and then proceeded inside
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Speaker 1: the residence. Mr Pardo was armed with four handguns when
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Speaker 1: he went into the residents. All four handguns have been
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Speaker 1: recovered and the best of our belief, as of right now,
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Speaker 1: all guns were empty. As he went into the house,
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Speaker 1: he began shooting at the partygoers, again indiscriminately. It appears
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Speaker 1: that he did have some intended targets, those being the
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Speaker 1: family members uh an immediate family of his ex wife.
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Speaker 1: Once the shooting stopped, it appeared that he then retrieved
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Speaker 1: the the homemade device, activated that and went through the
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Speaker 1: house basically delivering that and releasing a gas vapor inside
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Speaker 1: the house. There's no indication that he ignited the vapor,
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Speaker 1: but the vapor was able to be ignited either by
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Speaker 1: a pilot light or if there was a candle inside
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Speaker 1: the house, because obviously there was an explosion that occurred
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Speaker 1: inside the house. Mr Pardo was severely injured during that explosion.
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Speaker 1: He suffered third degree burns on both arms. It also
13:59
Speaker 1: appears that the Santa Claus suit that he was wearing
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Speaker 1: dead melt onto his body. Imagine this same party goers
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Speaker 1: running to neighbors homes to call police. One woman broke
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Speaker 1: her ankle leaping to safety from one of the home's
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Speaker 1: bedroom windows. A boy flees the home screaming into the street.
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Speaker 1: They're shooting my family. They're shooting my family, as the
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Speaker 1: home goes up in flames. It just I don't understand
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Speaker 1: why something about the holidays set off so much hatred.
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Speaker 1: Joe's got, Morgan, How can you process a scene like that?
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Speaker 1: It's a nightmare, Nancy, because this is what we refer
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Speaker 1: to as a stratified scene, which means you've got layer.
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Speaker 1: If you'll imagine a big layer cake, you've got layer
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Speaker 1: upon layer upon evidence. Not only do you have things
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Speaker 1: like you know, this guy when he walked in was
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Speaker 1: firing a nine millimeter pistol. Uh. There were a couple
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Speaker 1: of weapons involved, So the UM, the nature of these
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Speaker 1: rounds there is going to be very unique to each weapon. Uh.
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Speaker 1: You've got people that are trampling over one another. And
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Speaker 1: then when you put it on top of everything, the
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Speaker 1: explosion that took place as a result of as high
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Speaker 1: octane fuel that ignited. UM, it's it's mass chaos uh
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Speaker 1: in this environment. And for an investigator, when you walk
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Speaker 1: onto a scene like this, it gives you pause. Your
15:27
Speaker 1: mind begins to swirl. So when you're handling something like this,
15:32
Speaker 1: you have to be very methodical, take very careful steps
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Speaker 1: one by one, and work your way through it very
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Speaker 1: very slowly. I mean, police find the body's badly burned
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Speaker 1: of eight victims who were just gathered at a family
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Speaker 1: gathering for Christmas. As they entered the ruins after this
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Speaker 1: fire was finally put out, officers met with a scene
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Speaker 1: that was indescribable, said police Chief Kim ray Any. The
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Speaker 1: ninth body wasn't even discovered until the next day. Nancy,
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Speaker 1: if I could, if I can interject one more thing
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Speaker 1: about the nature of this fire. You know, when most
16:11
Speaker 1: people people into vernacular, they'll say things like, well, they
16:14
Speaker 1: burned to death. Most people don't burn to death in fires.
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Speaker 1: Most people die of smoke inhilation, as we all well know. However,
16:21
Speaker 1: in this particular case, when you've got high octane fuel
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Speaker 1: in a very closed environment, what will happen is the
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Speaker 1: people that are alive, that have not succumbed to gunshot
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Speaker 1: wounds will inhalate what's for two, a superheated gas. And
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Speaker 1: so this is very horrible that the the interlining of
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Speaker 1: the throat and the lungs will just automatically just kind
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Speaker 1: of singe. It's a very very painful way to die.
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Speaker 1: So not only are you inhalating the debris that's being consumed,
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Speaker 1: you're also inhilating the superheated gas, which in and of
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Speaker 1: itself is a whole different layer of terror on top
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Speaker 1: of all the rest of it. You know, what's so
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Speaker 1: is another disturbing layer. To doctor Carroll Lieberman for those
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Speaker 1: of you just joining us, a rampage goes down just
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Speaker 1: before Christmas. Uh, my whole family is wiped out. More
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Speaker 1: than the family. People were quoted as saying doctor Carroll
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Speaker 1: Lieberman that this this guy Pardon was quote the nicest
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Speaker 1: guy you can imagine, always a pleasure to talk to,
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Speaker 1: always a big smile, Always work the as usher every
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Speaker 1: Sunday evening for the past six years, working the five
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Speaker 1: thirty mass, the children's mass. How can someone so loving
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Speaker 1: and so generous and kind suddenly turn into a mass murderer. Yes,
17:44
Speaker 1: you know we often hear that with when someone's um,
17:49
Speaker 1: when there's some big crime in the neighbors all say, oh,
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Speaker 1: he was such a nice guy. I know. Um, well,
17:55
Speaker 1: you know there's no relationship though that is as intimate
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Speaker 1: as he would have had with his wife. And this spurning,
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Speaker 1: you know, her moving out with the kids, and um,
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Speaker 1: the disappointment of the relationship ending the way it did
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Speaker 1: and so on. Um, that brings up a lot of rage.
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Speaker 1: And connected with the holidays, I mean, you know when
18:20
Speaker 1: our reaction to the holidays, I mean, of course you've
18:22
Speaker 1: heard of holiday blues and so on. You know, how
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Speaker 1: we relate to the holidays has to do so much
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Speaker 1: with how we were as children, what happened during the
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Speaker 1: holidays when we were children, and we bring that the
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Speaker 1: sense of whether we were whether we felt deprived during
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Speaker 1: the holidays, excluded like he was excluded from this party. Um,
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Speaker 1: there are different things the hot buttons that get triggered,
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Speaker 1: particularly during the holidays. I want to pause as we
18:49
Speaker 1: examine what about Christmas uh and the holidays brings out
18:56
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19:00
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19:06
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Speaker 1: Thank you for being our partner today. I don't really
21:39
Speaker 1: understand it. At a time when we celebrate everything good
21:44
Speaker 1: in the world, how that could somehow be twisted and
21:48
Speaker 1: contorted into something so evil. We now travel to Fort
21:53
Speaker 1: Lauderdale where a guy, a dad Paul Mary, has dinner. Oh,
22:00
Speaker 1: a wonderful holiday dinner, sing songs around the piano, Christmas
22:06
Speaker 1: songs and then suddenly oh and hymns out of the
22:11
Speaker 1: church hymnal and then suddenly unloads. It all ends in
22:17
Speaker 1: a massacre where he executes an entire family. John Lemley
22:23
Speaker 1: another holiday, a festive, peaceful, loving get together a family
22:28
Speaker 1: and friends goes completely arrived. What happened? There were no arguments, warnings,
22:35
Speaker 1: or even red flags before he started the rampage uh marriage,
22:41
Speaker 1: shot his seventy nine year old aunt to death, killed
22:45
Speaker 1: his twin sisters, one of whom was pregnant. Um, it's
22:49
Speaker 1: not eight months pregnant exactly, just you know, a month
22:54
Speaker 1: or so away from delivering. It's not clear exactly who
22:59
Speaker 1: was shot when, but the blood bath could have been
23:02
Speaker 1: much worse with sixteen family members present. Uh. Marriage ut
23:08
Speaker 1: five at the time also pointed the gun at his uncle,
23:12
Speaker 1: but it twice would not fire. At one point, Uh,
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Speaker 1: he turned and started to walk away and said, I
23:20
Speaker 1: have been waiting for twenty years to do this. Oh,
23:24
Speaker 1: my stars, waiting for twenty years to do this. You
23:28
Speaker 1: know to Dr Carroll Lieberman, psychiatrists, radio and TV talk
23:32
Speaker 1: show host, personality, a best selling author, speaker. You know,
23:37
Speaker 1: Dr Carroll Lieberman, you have seen so much. Uh as
23:43
Speaker 1: an expert, I still don't understand how Holidays, when we're
23:48
Speaker 1: celebrating everything good in the world, as the Prince of
23:53
Speaker 1: peace comes to our world, how it could all be
23:57
Speaker 1: so twisted and horrible. And I guess my specific question
24:02
Speaker 1: right now is no warning flags, no mental illness history,
24:07
Speaker 1: no episodes of uncontrolled anger. Nothing. Well, actually, um, he did.
24:15
Speaker 1: He was going to his attorneys were going to try
24:18
Speaker 1: to do an insanity defense. Um, and that's how he
24:22
Speaker 1: got to strike a plea. Well, and then there's a
24:27
Speaker 1: story about how he went to see a doctor, although
24:29
Speaker 1: it's not clear what doctor he you know, whether it
24:31
Speaker 1: was a psychiatrist. Um, but the idea that he said,
24:36
Speaker 1: he's been waiting twenty years to do this. So he's
24:38
Speaker 1: thirty five years old. That means when he was fifth.
24:40
Speaker 1: Since the time he was fifteen, he has had all
24:43
Speaker 1: this resentment jealousy of his twin sisters who were younger,
24:47
Speaker 1: so they replaced him in the family. You know, the
24:50
Speaker 1: typical sibling rivalry. Well it's not so typical when he
24:53
Speaker 1: shoots them all, but um, but he was jealous of
24:56
Speaker 1: them and he one of the people that he killed
24:59
Speaker 1: was the six year old little girl who was performing.
25:03
Speaker 1: She was singing. She was supposed to be in the Nutcracker,
25:06
Speaker 1: and so she performed in front of all the relatives.
25:08
Speaker 1: So what it had to do with is how he
25:11
Speaker 1: was not getting enough attention. He was feeling like the
25:14
Speaker 1: family wasn't paying enough attention to him, and since he
25:17
Speaker 1: was fifteen, he felt that way. And hey, he had
25:20
Speaker 1: this resentment stored up for twenty years and finally, um,
25:24
Speaker 1: you know, he let loose and he went to this
25:26
Speaker 1: There were there were some warning signs in the sense
25:29
Speaker 1: that his sister and he had his sister took out
25:33
Speaker 1: a restraining order but then dropped that. So you know,
25:36
Speaker 1: this is such a good example of a family not
25:38
Speaker 1: paying enough attention. Well, like he was complaining about not
25:43
Speaker 1: paying enough attention to the psychological issues that were plaguing
25:47
Speaker 1: him up until this moment in time. There was no
25:51
Speaker 1: indication he had any mental illness there. He has not
25:55
Speaker 1: been treated nothing. He had had disagreements with one relative
26:02
Speaker 1: and they took out a t r O and then
26:04
Speaker 1: dropped it almost immediately. What's so shocking to me, the fact,
26:11
Speaker 1: Joseph Scott Morgan, forensic Expert, Professor Forensics at Jacksonville State University,
26:17
Speaker 1: is that these victims were totally taken by surprise. I
26:23
Speaker 1: mean they were literally standing around the piano. One of
26:28
Speaker 1: the daughters. They just had this huge dinner holiday dinner,
26:34
Speaker 1: and they were all around. They were looking at note cards.
26:39
Speaker 1: His daughter, Michela, had written about how thankful she was
26:43
Speaker 1: for her family and strung them on a clothes line,
26:46
Speaker 1: and she suddenly started singing. It was kind of an
26:51
Speaker 1: impromptu dress rehearsal. She was performing the Nutcracker. The very
26:55
Speaker 1: next day she was daughter Michela, And in the middle
27:01
Speaker 1: of all this marriage shows up and of course they
27:08
Speaker 1: let him in and he has the dinner. He's standing
27:12
Speaker 1: around the piano. Everything seems to be fine, and then
27:16
Speaker 1: out of the blue, he pulls out a gun and
27:19
Speaker 1: methodically targets victims, shooting his twin sisters, Carla, a real
27:25
Speaker 1: estate agent, and Lisa, who was eight months pregnant. Like
27:29
Speaker 1: the daughter Michela. Both of them loved to sing. They
27:33
Speaker 1: did this every year at Christmas and Thanksgiving. He shoots
27:36
Speaker 1: his aunt Raymonde, his brother in law Patrick, another man
27:43
Speaker 1: who happened to be there, Clifford. That wasn't all. That
27:48
Speaker 1: wasn't all. He goes into a baby's room. He sees
27:54
Speaker 1: her there and murders her. Beside the baby's bed was
28:02
Speaker 1: a little novel that she had been writing about a squirrel,
28:07
Speaker 1: where of course the squirrel can talk and sing, and
28:11
Speaker 1: she was actually writing a book. She would have turned
28:15
Speaker 1: seven a few days later. Joe Scott, how do you
28:22
Speaker 1: process a scene like that? It's hard to get past it, Nancy,
28:26
Speaker 1: because as as a as an investigator, you want to
28:31
Speaker 1: look at the physical evidence and assess what you see
28:35
Speaker 1: before you relative to the scientific value. But one of
28:40
Speaker 1: the problems that you encounter is that when you do this,
28:44
Speaker 1: and I'm gonna wax philosophical for a moment, is that
28:47
Speaker 1: you drag your own humanity in there with you. And
28:50
Speaker 1: sometimes it's very, very difficult to view these things and
28:54
Speaker 1: not be put off emotionally by what you're seeing. And
29:00
Speaker 1: it's a surreal event many times because and I like
29:03
Speaker 1: in this when I'm teaching my classes, I tell I
29:06
Speaker 1: tell my my students many times, listen, you're there to
29:12
Speaker 1: view the abnormal in the context of the normal. And
29:17
Speaker 1: what what's more kind? What's more normal? Well, what's more peaceful?
29:21
Speaker 1: A better word than to have family all gathered around
29:24
Speaker 1: during the holiday season. You're singing around the piano, people
29:27
Speaker 1: are celebrating live, it's joyful, it's festive, and then all
29:31
Speaker 1: of a sudden, carnage visits. It's it's pure hell on earth.
29:37
Speaker 1: And you're having to contextualize all this stuff as an
29:41
Speaker 1: investigator and process it and try to figure out what
29:44
Speaker 1: happened to these individuals. And then you begin to kind
29:47
Speaker 1: of interweave their stories about how much they suffered in
29:51
Speaker 1: these events. And it's very very hard and and a
29:54
Speaker 1: lot of people, you know, they sit back and they
29:56
Speaker 1: look at investigators and police officers to say, I don't
29:59
Speaker 1: understand why you're jaded. I don't understand why you had
30:02
Speaker 1: this twisted view of the world. And it is because
30:06
Speaker 1: of the fact that we always see in three D
30:08
Speaker 1: living color before us that the abnormal in the context
30:12
Speaker 1: of the normal. Well, I don't know so much that
30:15
Speaker 1: it's jaded. Is that you at some point it's to
30:20
Speaker 1: get through it. You have two numb yourself or you
30:24
Speaker 1: just can't keep going. I mean when I read, when
30:26
Speaker 1: I've studied this case for this moment, I mean, there's
30:31
Speaker 1: this six year old little girl who the dad says,
30:34
Speaker 1: she's quote just our life. I don't know how we're
30:37
Speaker 1: ever going to recover. And you you look at them,
30:42
Speaker 1: there's an eight months pregnant mom. I mean, I remember
30:47
Speaker 1: at when I was six months. You know, I gave
30:49
Speaker 1: birth so prematurely. I never made it to eight months,
30:52
Speaker 1: but I could hardly walk just it was so difficult.
30:57
Speaker 1: And here's this mom eight months pregnant, dead, her twin
31:02
Speaker 1: sister dead. And then to even suggest John Limley Crime
31:07
Speaker 1: Stories investigative reporter that he was insane, it doesn't work
31:11
Speaker 1: because he has the wherewithal to then hop in his
31:15
Speaker 1: car and go on the run. He goes straight out
31:20
Speaker 1: after gunning down a whole family, he jumps into his
31:23
Speaker 1: royal blue Toyota camera and heads off. In fact, the
31:28
Speaker 1: police immediately alert Michigan authorities because they think he was
31:34
Speaker 1: headed there. I mean, he knew exactly what he was doing.
31:39
Speaker 1: Because he goes on the run. There had to be
31:41
Speaker 1: a plan in place after the mass murder. Marriage was,
31:45
Speaker 1: as you say, on the lamb for weeks until the
31:47
Speaker 1: tip was called in. After an episode of America's Most
31:51
Speaker 1: Wanted highlighted uh, this murder case and another thing again
31:56
Speaker 1: to Carol Lieberman, Doctor Carol Lieberman and Joseph S got
31:59
Speaker 1: more good also with me, John Limley. This was a
32:02
Speaker 1: picture perfect place. This is in Jupiter, Florida, where Tiger
32:06
Speaker 1: Woods and all those millionaires lived. It was a beautiful
32:09
Speaker 1: home in a beautiful subdivision where there's no crime at all.
32:15
Speaker 1: Take a listen to this. The trauma that is inexpensible.
32:20
Speaker 1: One of my rerests just for not to go to trial.
32:23
Speaker 1: He said, we'll never really hear before that. We endured
32:27
Speaker 1: that night. It's still and that was still in with today.
32:30
Speaker 1: But well that's fine. Glass battery everywhere, bodies fall into
32:34
Speaker 1: the ground and the screams for him to please stop.
32:37
Speaker 1: People running for their lives. And now listen to baby
32:41
Speaker 1: Michael's dad and so much pain on the courthouse steps.
32:47
Speaker 1: I feel like I filled my daughter again. You know,
32:50
Speaker 1: I couldn't save her that night, and now today I
32:53
Speaker 1: couldn't kill the defendant. The one thing that really upsets
32:58
Speaker 1: me in this case is we have a good case.
33:01
Speaker 1: We just don't have a good state attorney we have.
33:04
Speaker 1: You know, if my pregnant wife as the strength to
33:07
Speaker 1: prosecute a death penalty case, why doesn't he? As we
33:11
Speaker 1: examine what it is about the Christmas holiday, where so
33:16
Speaker 1: much of the world is celebrating what is good in
33:20
Speaker 1: the world, What is joyful, what is peaceful, what is loving?
33:24
Speaker 1: How does that get contorted in some people's minds and
33:29
Speaker 1: end up in horrific acts. I want to thank our
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36:55
Speaker 1: What is it about the holidays, specifically Christmas holidays, um
37:00
Speaker 1: the whole season starting at Thanksgiving that brings out seemingly
37:05
Speaker 1: the very worst in human nature? With me Joseph S.
37:09
Speaker 1: Gott Morgan forensics expert, John Limley, Crime stories investigative reporter
37:14
Speaker 1: and Dr Carol Lieberman psychiatrist, radio TV talk show host,
37:18
Speaker 1: personality and best selling author Dr Carroll What is it
37:24
Speaker 1: I mean at this time is that looking around at
37:27
Speaker 1: other people that are seemingly so happy and loving the holiday,
37:33
Speaker 1: and then you feel like you're not so happy? Does
37:36
Speaker 1: that bring out that much angst and anger and hatred. Yes,
37:41
Speaker 1: that's a very big part of it. Uh. You know,
37:44
Speaker 1: there are some patterns that are fit through all of
37:48
Speaker 1: these different cases that we're talking about. One is the
37:51
Speaker 1: idea of money or gifts, and you know, the sense
37:54
Speaker 1: of deprivation that these people feel at this particular holiday
37:58
Speaker 1: and have felt in previous holidays, and the resentment builds up.
38:02
Speaker 1: Then also family feeling like they are abandoned either physically
38:07
Speaker 1: or emotionally by their family, you know, the wife leave, um,
38:11
Speaker 1: or the parents leave or planning on leaving. Um. And
38:14
Speaker 1: jealousy amongst the family, jealous of children, jealous of of
38:18
Speaker 1: siblings and so on. And the holidays and this you know,
38:22
Speaker 1: the side with the fact that we don't all look
38:24
Speaker 1: like Hallmark cards. You know, nobody's family, nobody's family really
38:28
Speaker 1: looks like the picture of a family on a Hallmark card.
38:31
Speaker 1: And for people who have deep resentments and something's recent
38:35
Speaker 1: to trigger it, like a divorce or parents stopping paying
38:39
Speaker 1: their their more money, giving them money and so on. Um,
38:42
Speaker 1: these are the things that then trigger it and bring
38:45
Speaker 1: out the violence. Well. You know what's interesting also, and
38:49
Speaker 1: Joe's cart you have a family, um, most all of us.
38:52
Speaker 1: Do you know the other day, what was I first
38:55
Speaker 1: thing at David about I can't even remember. And Lucy
39:01
Speaker 1: looked up at me and she actually had tears around.
39:04
Speaker 1: She said, Mommy, please don't leave, don't leave us, don't
39:09
Speaker 1: get a divorce. And I looked her. I said, Lucy, sweetheart,
39:14
Speaker 1: nobody is leaving anywhere. Number one, I'm in my pajamas. Uh.
39:20
Speaker 1: And number two, of course I'm not leaving. I would
39:23
Speaker 1: never ever have I ever left you. And of course
39:26
Speaker 1: I'm not leaving your dad. Although he's totally socially awkward,
39:30
Speaker 1: I do fuss at him, but honey, I would never
39:33
Speaker 1: ever leave your dad. I love your dad. And I
39:37
Speaker 1: guess somebody at school has the parents that are divorced
39:40
Speaker 1: and she hears about that. And my point is, sometimes
39:46
Speaker 1: our fears get magnified, not just her, but our fears
39:52
Speaker 1: become magnified, our you know, feelings are magnified sometimes. And
39:58
Speaker 1: I'm wondering what it is about everyone being together. It
40:03
Speaker 1: just seems to boil over one cross word, you know,
40:07
Speaker 1: oversetting the table, and suddenly somebody pulls out an A
40:11
Speaker 1: K forty seven. I I don't understand it, but I'm
40:14
Speaker 1: thinking about right now. A guy, a twenty eight year
40:17
Speaker 1: old guy who has everything in the world to be
40:21
Speaker 1: thankful for. Its name is Joel Michael Guy Jr. And
40:28
Speaker 1: his parents Joel Uncle, Guy Senior and mom Lisa um
40:33
Speaker 1: have been supporting him his whole life. He's been in school,
40:36
Speaker 1: I think now for ten years. I'm talking about college. College. Okay,
40:42
Speaker 1: he's a Now, I can't say it right now, Mackie.
40:46
Speaker 1: I know you're listening. You're in school, in college going
40:50
Speaker 1: on ten years, okay. But mother and daddy were not fitting,
40:55
Speaker 1: you know, footing the entire bill because my brother would
40:58
Speaker 1: work jop out college, then go back, and then go
41:01
Speaker 1: back and forth. Finally, my mom, you know, tied him
41:06
Speaker 1: down and said, listen, you're gonna have what your father
41:10
Speaker 1: and I never had. Come hell or high water. Now
41:13
Speaker 1: you drop this job that means nothing, and you finish.
41:17
Speaker 1: And he did. This guy on the other hand, Oh
41:21
Speaker 1: and by the way, it went on to be the
41:24
Speaker 1: one who is so successful and live on the golf course.
41:27
Speaker 1: By the way, my brother who would actually hide his
41:31
Speaker 1: grades from school. My sister would make all a's and
41:34
Speaker 1: would be waiting on her grades to come in the mail.
41:37
Speaker 1: He would make all f's and hide his and my
41:40
Speaker 1: sister's grades so my parents would not know the greatest
41:43
Speaker 1: sat up. And you know my sister, the brilliant one
41:47
Speaker 1: who was the college professor, you know, raising her children
41:51
Speaker 1: at my brother or who was the master getting fs
41:55
Speaker 1: as the one living on the golf course. Can somebody
41:58
Speaker 1: explain the justice in this thing? But back to this guy,
42:03
Speaker 1: he was not working, living off his parents. He's been
42:07
Speaker 1: in college now ten years. I'm proud to say my
42:10
Speaker 1: brother did it in seven. And he comes home and
42:17
Speaker 1: asks for more money. The parents are trying to retire
42:23
Speaker 1: and they have to break it to him over holiday meal. Son,
42:28
Speaker 1: you're gonna have to make it on. You're gonna have
42:29
Speaker 1: to get a job. Son. Finally, you've been in school
42:33
Speaker 1: ten years to get a four year degree. It's over.
42:37
Speaker 1: We're selling the house, we're retiring, we're not gonna work anymore.
42:43
Speaker 1: And what does he do? John Limley, I just hate
42:46
Speaker 1: the ending of this story. What happens John? The family
42:50
Speaker 1: is gathering for a holiday feast at this beautiful, tiny,
42:54
Speaker 1: little two story home that's on a quarter lot in
42:57
Speaker 1: the Golden Lane neighborhood of Uxville, Tennessee. Now it was
43:02
Speaker 1: already to be the family's last holiday together in that
43:05
Speaker 1: particular house. Did I'm backing up? Did you say tiny?
43:09
Speaker 1: Because I'm looking at it and it's a mansion. I'm
43:11
Speaker 1: looking right at it. Did I hear you say tiny? Okay?
43:18
Speaker 1: Maybe I should No, no, no, no, no, just go ahead.
43:20
Speaker 1: I mean this place is it looks like maybe the
43:23
Speaker 1: Italian kind of like stucco Jackie saction is exactly where it's.
43:28
Speaker 1: I mean, it's gorgeous. Okay, not that that means the
43:32
Speaker 1: crime can't happen, but what it does mean is it's
43:35
Speaker 1: probably a very low crime area. Okay, Sorry, I just
43:38
Speaker 1: had to make sure you knew this was not a
43:39
Speaker 1: tiny home because I've been watching too much h G
43:43
Speaker 1: t V and they do all the specials on the
43:45
Speaker 1: tiny homes people put on the car and drive around
43:48
Speaker 1: the country with them. Is it's not one of them?
43:50
Speaker 1: All right? Go ahead? Now, this was already to be
43:53
Speaker 1: the family's last holiday together in that house, because in
43:56
Speaker 1: two weeks Joel Dive Sr. And his wife Lisa would
43:59
Speaker 1: going to move into his late mother's mountain house about
44:03
Speaker 1: ninety miles away. Family members were already talking about getting
44:09
Speaker 1: together there for a Christmas reunion. The guys said their
44:13
Speaker 1: goodviceed first to their three daughters, who all live in Tennessee,
44:17
Speaker 1: and plan to send off their son, Joel Michael Guy Jr.
44:23
Speaker 1: As we mentioned, he'd been living in Baton Rouge for
44:25
Speaker 1: nearly a decade and his parents were financially supporting him.
44:29
Speaker 1: Authorities say they had planned to tell him that they
44:33
Speaker 1: were indeed cutting him off. It's still unclear exactly what
44:37
Speaker 1: happened next, whether the guys ever had a chance to
44:40
Speaker 1: even deliver their message. What authorities do know is that
44:44
Speaker 1: the twenty eight year old state in Tennessee another three
44:48
Speaker 1: days longer than he had planned, and by that Sunday afternoon,
44:52
Speaker 1: his parents home had been turned into what police say
44:55
Speaker 1: was a horrific and very gruesome crime scene. During a
45:01
Speaker 1: welfare check that following Monday, after Lisa, guys employer, told
45:06
Speaker 1: police that she did not show up for work, authorities
45:10
Speaker 1: entered the home and discovered a barking dog that was
45:13
Speaker 1: locked in an upstairs room and the remains of Joel Sr.
45:18
Speaker 1: And Lisa scattered throughout the house, their dismembered body parts
45:23
Speaker 1: resting in a homemade acidic solution concocted uh He was
45:29
Speaker 1: trying to erase all evidence that the crimes even took
45:32
Speaker 1: place there. Well, wait a minute, Joe Scott Morgan Joseph
45:36
Speaker 1: Scott Morgan, forensics expert, Professor Forensics at Jacksonville State University.
45:42
Speaker 1: What about this acidic solution? Drums of it in this
45:51
Speaker 1: beautiful home. It's a Jackie's waving a note at me
45:55
Speaker 1: that it's a really expensive area in Knoxville. But you
46:00
Speaker 1: go in the front door, the crystal doors are surrounded
46:03
Speaker 1: by glass of this mansion and you find drums of
46:08
Speaker 1: acidic solution. Joe Scott. Yeah, words like torture, stab, wounds,
46:17
Speaker 1: and dismemberment are also used. Uh in this tail and
46:23
Speaker 1: uh he he was with his parents for an extended
46:28
Speaker 1: period of time, which is why the police believe that
46:31
Speaker 1: prior to them dying. Um, he very well may have
46:35
Speaker 1: tortured them. A lot of anger involved with this. And
46:40
Speaker 1: you know, after after this feat of killing, these intimates
46:45
Speaker 1: these people, and that's the way we commonly refer to
46:48
Speaker 1: them if you're in an intimate relationship, not referring to
46:52
Speaker 1: a sexual relationship, but just you know, a familial relationship,
46:55
Speaker 1: very close pearing and child after you go through killing
47:00
Speaker 1: them up close and personal with an edged weapon. Then
47:05
Speaker 1: before you even get to the acid, you have to
47:08
Speaker 1: dismember the bodies. And this is no easy feat, particularly
47:11
Speaker 1: if you've never done it before. I've worked in the
47:14
Speaker 1: morgue for many, many years, and I'll just leave it
47:17
Speaker 1: at that. I know what it takes. And for someone
47:21
Speaker 1: in this fancy home, uh, that has limited knowledge and
47:26
Speaker 1: I would think limited specialty tools in order to facilitate this, Uh,
47:31
Speaker 1: it would be very difficult. Also if you don't use
47:34
Speaker 1: the right combination of you know, what they're referring to
47:38
Speaker 1: is not necessarily a pure asset solution, but something that
47:41
Speaker 1: was kind of concocted. Always that makes me raised an eyebrow.
47:46
Speaker 1: It's not gonna work very effectively. And from what I understand, Uh,
47:51
Speaker 1: he essentially left the scene and returned back uh to
47:56
Speaker 1: Button Rouge and uh you know where later, as John
48:01
Speaker 1: had pointed out, you know, the police entered this house
48:03
Speaker 1: of horrors, and I can't I can't imagine what it
48:07
Speaker 1: would be like to be a young uniformed officer, which
48:09
Speaker 1: more than likely it was that entered this home just
48:12
Speaker 1: to conduct a welfare check. And this is something that's
48:15
Speaker 1: done on a regular basis and you walk in. This
48:17
Speaker 1: is the last thing you're expecting to see too. Dr
48:20
Speaker 1: Carroll Lieberman, psychiatrist, radio TV talk show host, best selling author.
48:27
Speaker 1: Dr Carroll please give us some guidance. Well, this story
48:31
Speaker 1: has again some of these same elements of these holiday massacres,
48:38
Speaker 1: um money. You know, he was going to be cut off.
48:41
Speaker 1: It's so interesting because there are even some reports that
48:44
Speaker 1: maybe he wasn't even enrolled in college at least not
48:47
Speaker 1: for the whole ten years. Uh. He supposedly wanted to
48:50
Speaker 1: be a plastic surgeon, which I guess could explain. I
48:53
Speaker 1: could explain the dismemberment right he was practicing. And then um,
48:57
Speaker 1: the idea that his parents were going to be selling
49:00
Speaker 1: at home, perhaps his childhood home or at least perhaps
49:03
Speaker 1: to something that represented status and and moving away abandonment,
49:08
Speaker 1: So money, deprivation, abandonment. Um. You know, all the ingredients
49:14
Speaker 1: were there for him to finally express his rage. As
49:18
Speaker 1: we head into the beautiful Christmas season, I want to
49:26
Speaker 1: look around and see what is good in the world,
49:30
Speaker 1: what is joyful? What is peaceful? As we welcome the
49:36
Speaker 1: Prince of Peace yet again Nancy Greg's grind story signing
49:43
Speaker 1: him good