Latest / ContraMinds Podcast - Unlocking Personal Growth and Professional Excellence / Pooja Jauhari on Leadership Lessons in Building a Disruptive and Value Driven Marketing Firm (#039)

Transcript

Pooja Jauhari on Leadership Lessons in Building a Disruptive and Value Driven Marketing Firm (#039) · ContraMinds Podcast - Unlocking Personal Growth and Professional Excellence

• 0:01
  SPEAKER_04: If I were to have a brand that was up and running today, these are the people that I would have in my marketing team running the show.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_04: Number one, I would have someone who is very strong and has an opinion on social media, which means that this person is um understands how to stay relevant.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_04: If this person understands how to stay relevant, that person is going to be able to keep the brand relevant, which is number one.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_04: Number two, I would have a person or this same person have the ability to really truly understand platform, understand performance.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_04: That is the only way to win in today's world.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_04: The third, I will never disrespect experience and traditional practices.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_04: So it's very important to have someone who understands the traditional aspects of brand building, but is able to mold him or herself into operating with agility and operate and being able to mold themselves to what this complex world of marketing plays.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_04: Because you know, if I the you know I've joked about this before.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_04: If I had a journalist, I had an IT professional and I had a brand manager from a traditional company, that would make my marketing team.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks for taking time and talking to me.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_04: Oh, thank you, Sami.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_04: It's a pleasure to be here, and uh you know, I'm just excited that you and I have stayed in touch all these years.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_04: So thanks so much for the invitation.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_01: Brilliant, it's our privilege to have you uh in the podcast.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_01: And let me dive into the conversation, Pooja.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_01: Uh uh so one of the things that uh you know that have completely impressed me as a professional as far as you are concerned, uh uh is the way I've seen you you know grow through the years, right?
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_01: From the Unilever days to uh you know you worked in uh you know contract, then you moved to Femina, and then you went out and built glutch.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_01: So there's a whole story around how you've structured your career.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_01: Uh but as you do all this, uh my belief is that there are some very strong foundations that lead up to somebody successful like you, right?
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so how was your growing up years?
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_01: Uh what are those lessons that you learned uh you know in your growing growing up years uh which uh you know you carry till date.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_01: So tell me some stories.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_01: Tell me, for example, I read that your grandfather was a poet, right?
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_01: So uh, you know, so there's some interesting things that I know.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_01: So, therefore, what are the things that you learned during those days which you carry forward till date?
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_04: That's such a great question.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_04: Um, you know, I haven't really ever answered that in an interview before, but um for me, my foundation years were uh truly my foundation years because they defined me, they made me the person that I am today, and I take so much of that, even today in the way I live my life.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_04: Life was stuff while I was growing up, and I've said that part, you know, before my I lost my dad when I was very young, when I was two and a half, so I'm really I've been raised by a single mum who's an exceptional woman.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_04: So for me, um opportunities uh seemed very distant because you know it was what you were busy with.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_04: Hey, let's get through today, right?
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_04: When that that's when when my my environment was like that.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_04: I have to get through today, make sure that today is good, and looking very far ahead in the future was was not really something that we got into, but that's something that I you know there's this there's the inner fire you have, and I think you are you're either born with it or you create it.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_04: So I I feel I was born with it.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and I always had it, even as a young child, where I wanted to get out of the situation I was in, I wanted to live a better life, and to be able to live a better life um without the support system of what a traditional family has.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_04: You know, you have a dad and you have and my my mom was so busy while she was working, so I was really in a sense building my opportunities myself, and that's that's one of the key foundations of my life that I'm an opportunity spotter and I'm an opportunity builder, and I say that in the most positive manner because you know, when you say hey you're an opportunity spotter, sometimes it's taken very negatively, but I truly believe that you know you've got a knock on the doors that you want opened.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_04: Sometimes they open automatically, sometimes you really have to hammer hard, right?
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_04: And I'm not I'm not shy of that at all, even today, even at this age.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_04: I will go after an opportunity that I want opened up for myself.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, if it's something that I truly believe is good for me, good for my family, my environment.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_04: And that's what I went after.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_04: So, one big uh core value I say, which is to not shy away from knocking on doors.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_04: The second one is keeping your eyes and ears open.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, you know, we and I have spoken about this very recently, is that so often people don't take feedback well.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_04: Um, but feedback is the biggest, the biggest gift you can get from someone.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_04: Because if you truly listening, then that's the way you grow.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_04: Because so often when you are running, going after your goals as you create your opportunities, you forget.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_04: Uh you're not listening to things that you really should pay attention to.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_04: The second most important piece that I train I have trained myself to be is to be a good listener, which is, you know, my my professional coach told me this term very recently where she said it's actually not feedback, it's feed forward because what you get helps you move forward, and um it has been a great asset for me.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_04: Um, I you know, I unlocked this not very early on in my life.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_04: Um, I say it happened sort of mid-career, but I say, no, I've got to sit back and listen to what people are telling me.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_04: That's the only way I'm gonna grow.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_04: So that's the second piece.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_04: Even till today, if someone's willing to take their time out and tell me stuff, I will sit back and listen.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_04: It's not about um you know bruising my ego, killing my confidence.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_04: You also have to over time have the maturity to understand what information is really good for you and will help you grow and what information is sort of harmful, right?
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_04: You gain that maturity over time.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_04: But that's that's an important piece to have.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_04: The third piece is to really be able to relax and take a breath.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_04: And the fact that you are the center of your own life, no one else is thinking about you as much as you are thinking about yourself.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_04: You know, in our culture, or I think in the culture of the world, we're so often worried about oh, what is this person thinking about me, or what is the industry thinking about me, what is my environment thinking about me?
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_04: And so many of the decisions you take are sort of guided by that noise in your head.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_04: Hey, if I take this, this is how I will be perceived, if I don't do this, this is how I will be perceived.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_04: Um again, something that I've done, you know, in the last in the recent years, is which is to sort of take really shut out that noise.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_04: I don't live for the community, my life is for myself, and because my life is for myself, there are certain decisions which a community may not agree with, which my industry may not agree with, but you still take it because it's better for your life, and that is really the third value slash principleslash rule that I sort of have for myself, which is you're the hero of your own life, no one is thinking about you as much as you are thinking about yourself.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_04: So just I mean, go with the flow, do what you have to do, and and and stay mentally fit and happy.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_04: Did I answer your question, Swami?
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_01: Perfect, perfect.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_01: And did that did this come because uh your mom has always told you be a good person?
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_04: Um, I I think you know it it does come from that, right?
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_04: We are we taught that, as uh you know, I remember my mom telling me so many times, you know, I don't care if you are, just be a good person.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_04: Um, yes, it it does come from that.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_04: Maybe you know it's it's a part of our conditioning.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_04: Um, but also from the where for me largely, because I was always far younger than my peers wherever I was.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_04: Um that's no longer the case anymore, of course.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_04: I gladly report that.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_04: But uh, you know, when I was starting out, I was always the youngest person in the room, and and you're susceptible to um to opinion, and I had to really train myself to say that it does not someone else's opinion of me does not matter.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_04: I don't live for them, my life is my own, and to be able to recognize that it's very liberating because you then take decisions that you truly are happy about, and if you're truly happy about the decision, you do well, and at least that has been my experience and my story.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so uh so the creative side of yours, does it come from your uh grandfather who was a poet?
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_04: You know, maybe the you you reminded me that right now, Swami.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_04: He was a great poet, Harish Chandra Johori, that was his name, and uh uh I obviously didn't know of how important that was the time I grew up because he used to tell us his kids, and you know, he used to read his poetry to us.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_04: I remember this one line he said on his deathbed to me.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_04: He said, Jitirau Buddha, you know, such a normal thing that you tell your and then he said he said this in Hindi, which I will not be able to do justice to.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_04: Um, but I I will say that in English, he said, Look at the irony of life.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_04: A dying man is giving the blessings of a long life, you know, and that was the kind of person he was, and uh has it had impact on me subconsciously?
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_04: I'm I'm sure it has, you know.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely, absolutely.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_01: I think uh uh at one end, uh some of the value systems that you talk about come from some of the uh you know in uh advice that you got from your mom.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_01: The creativity comes from probably uh you know the genes that you carry when you're you know when you know that your grandfather is a poet.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_01: I believe these things uh come back to you.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and uh I was also uh looking at uh you know your Twitter handle and uh you know uh you follow Dalai Lama.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_01: So some of this comes from the teachings.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_01: Is it something that you uh is it something that's close to your uh heart?
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_01: Is that the reason why you have this sense of calmness around you?
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_04: Um uh you know it is this is this is firstly that's a great observation, Swami.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_04: So, you know, that's kudos to you on that.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_04: Again, it's something that I've built out for myself.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_04: I'm not naturally a very calm person.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_04: You've known me uh as as you know as a young executive, so it's something that I've built out for myself, and um I I'm seeking my me and my partner are seeking that kind of life, and we built that life for ourselves, which is um we we really live a slow growth life now, and what that truly means it's not just about wealth, you know, it's when you talk about slow growth, people are usually just they just sort of bucket in profession.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_04: It's not just about your profession, but the life that you live, which is um to truly care about things that really matter, to understand prioritization, to understand that things are not in your control, you know.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_04: So that part, in fact, the understanding your lack of control on so many things in life, it's humbling, it's absolutely humbling.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_04: It humbles your arrogance, and I say that in in the most positive manner because I've had so many situations in my life where I've gotten and say, I've got this, this is in my control, I'm gonna make it happen.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_04: It's gone belly up, and sometimes very deep personal things which have gone belly up, and those experiences teach you that you have none of this is in your control, you only live a day at a time.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_04: Every day, the fact that you get up, you're lucky, you know.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_04: You also recognize there's so many things that have happened to me that make me believe that you know, there's this uh you live a life, but you actually live two lives.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_04: One where uh you're just living like you're gonna have forever, and then you start living knowing that you don't have forever.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_04: And and that knowledge, uh that awareness of that knowledge, that we really truly have limited time.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_04: How we spend our time is the most important uh aspect for me in my life today.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_04: Who I spend my time with, the most valuable um aspect in my life today.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_04: My own time is my biggest wealth, nothing else, and how I spend it, who I choose to spend it with, um, is really what this next phase of my life is, and actually has been for some time now.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_01: So uh now that you've seen it for almost 20 years, uh if there's an ankster listening to this uh podcast, uh how do you think uh you know uh they should structure their career?
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_01: Uh because uh at one stage, uh, you know, uh I would say you know, uh we need an impatience uh you know DNA in us.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_01: At some point in time, we need a certain calmness DNA in us.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_01: So uh so how do you think uh you know one should structure and think about the career to ensure that there's a balance, that uh you know you can be uh, you know, when you look back 20, 25 years later, you need to look back and then say, hey, this is really how I pivoted every three years.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, so what would would be the advice that you would probably give us two or three key takeaways?
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_04: Um again, a very good question.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_04: I'm gonna answer that by stepping back a little bit.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_04: Um, a lot of a lot of journalists and a lot of people who I speak with, uh even a lot of young people ask me, hey, how did you do it?
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_04: You know, you live such a and now you're talking about living a slow growth life, etc.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_04: I'm sure you had to work very hard to be here.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_04: Answer to that is yes.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_04: Um, you know, my experience, I could not have lived the way I'm living right now when I was at 20, right?
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_04: Because there is uh at the age of 20, there there's a kind of energy you have in your own gut that drives you.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_04: Um there is an environment around you which is almost free of any sort of responsibilities, right?
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_04: Be it partnerships or parenthood or any of those things, which you're free of.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_04: And I say free of because that's a great phase to be free of things, um, because you have that kind of energy.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_04: Putting in your 100% is essential.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_04: So I would never tell anyone be relaxed from the very beginning.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_04: That's not how I live my life.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_04: That's also not how I not how I recommend anyone else lives, but that you know, people make their own decisions.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_04: It is going over the 100% that burns us out, and that has been my real realization.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_04: Putting in the 100% is important for success: 100% at work, 100% with your family, being able to really, you know, strike balance in how you're doing your work with your home.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_04: You know, there are these three sections: your work, your home, your community.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_04: Your work constitutes your career and everything that keeps you productive.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_04: Your family is your parents, your partner, your children over a period of time, you as well as your friends, your community is a community at large.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_04: The impact that you really have on the world and in your community doesn't really have to be at a national, global level, just your own community, right?
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_04: These are three sections.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_04: If you are able to strike balance in these three sections, you're living well.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_04: So being able to do that 100% is critical.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_04: It is, you know, I when I look back at my career, it is the times when I went 130%, 140%, 200% when I started to burn out.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_04: But even if I had done just the 100%, I would be sitting in the same position as I'm in today, right?
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_04: The 100% is essential.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_04: It is going over and above that that leads to the burnout.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_04: Um and that is my my humble observation and recommendation.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_01: Therefore, uh, and therefore, how would you uh how do you want because a lot of people sometimes uh think even giving 100% is uh you know too much, right?
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_01: So therefore, uh you do see that as a uh as a uh as a you know as a takeaway in a lot of people today.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_01: So therefore, it's important to give 100%, but it it's important to give 100%, but balance it between these three pillars.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_01: That's your advice.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_04: 100%.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_04: That is exactly my advice.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_04: That because of any of those sections, which is work, family, and community, are lacking focus, you're not living a fulfilled life.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_04: No, we keep saying tomorrow I will have time for family, tomorrow I will have time for my friends, tomorrow I will have time for community.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_04: You don't know if tomorrow is even going to come.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_04: Right?
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_04: That realizing that is is quite profound.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and the moment you realize that you start living better.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_04: So 100% in these three buckets, um, lives are hectic and it's easier said than done.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_04: I have been in situations as a young executive where I've had to, you know, I've had to put in 100, 200, 300% in what I am doing.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_04: Um, I I feel that younger people today are far, you know, I would say far more aware.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_04: I won't say smarter, I would say aware of the balance that they own, that they need to strike themselves in these three buckets.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_04: So there's a lot of knowledge and awareness that the young generation is getting into the workforce with, and there is a certain kind of expectation, I feel rightly so, that they have from their workplaces.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_04: Because let's be honest, I mean, our workplaces have been pretty excessive for many, many years, right?
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_04: So we do need to strike the right kind of balance between work and you know the number of hours we expect people to put in, etc.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_04: So that's my answer to them.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so uh, you know, uh we are at the stage where uh you know there is a looming recession that people are talking about, right?
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, but you started uh you know your journey exactly at a time when you know recession happened, right?
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_01: So what is it that you did right uh which uh you know people who are looking to start up today uh you know can take a leaf out of and then say, what are the things that I need to do now that there seems to be a reception recession that's coming?
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so what are the you know four or five things that you need to be aware of to ensure that you live through this volatility?
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, so firstly, um Varun and Rohit started glitch in the middle of the recession, and I joined them a few years later.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_04: And what we I think what was what is something that we talk about as part of their founding story is that there was a gap, a gap in the market that no one else was filling.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_04: That gap seemed like a very small gap, seemed like an irritating gap, right?
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_04: No one else was filling that, and that's what we started to fill, which is to say that there was an in, you know, in that during that time there were all of the big agencies that were doing certain kinds of work, but digital disruption had just started coming about, right?
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_04: Content suddenly became this big thing, social media became a big thing, and but it was almost looked at as a little tick in the marketing manager's laundry list of things to do, never the most prominent, right?
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_04: And it was most often number 10, number 12 in the entire list of priorities.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_04: So many people didn't even want to touch it, so many didn't, but so many did.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_04: And look at the success stories of all of us who sort of started that around that time, right?
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_04: Where we said that we're gonna go after certain kind of content, we're gonna go after even if it's low value, we're gonna go after certain kind of creative delivery, even if it is low value, but we're gonna deal with efficiencies at scale.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_04: And when you start talking about efficiencies at scale and are able to show the person spending the dollars, the value on each dollar that the person is spending, suddenly you become very important.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_04: I remember and I remember this journey of ours very clearly.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_04: We were people, especially in Unilever, we were people who used to in Unilever in Bombay has a massive street inside their office, the lovely office.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_04: And we used to be there's brew cafe downstairs, and you know, Rohit and I, and sometimes Warren and we used to be in that cafe hoping to speak to brand managers, right?
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_04: And then from that cafe, we were invited to be in a meeting, sitting in the corner.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_04: From that corner, we kept adding value, we got a seat at the table.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_04: Very quickly, we got a very, very important seat at the table.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_04: Then we became The most important people in the room.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_04: I have seen us, you know, go through that journey because we were very consistent about one thing, which is delivering value, real value, right?
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_04: There was talk about hey, are we, you know, are we are we changing the way advising is done?
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_04: Is this even does this even make sense?
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_04: It is so low value.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_04: But when you keep, you know, when you look at when you're so culturally sound, no, so there's certain things, it was not just about the value, right?
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_04: It was about can you actually deliver culturally sound, authentic pieces of work at great value that deliver great results?
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_04: If you're able to do that consistently, you become a valuable partner.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_04: And for us, that's really that's been the journey, and that's what I urge of all young people or older people or people of whichever age, gender, diversity who are thinking of starting companies right now.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_04: That even though I wasn't one of the people that went out and took their risk in the middle of the recession and joined them, you know, sometime later, I know very confidently that it is finding that gap and being able to consistently deliver on that gap and being able to take a risk taker.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_04: And it's you know, risk being taking risks is is something that everyone tells for um you know when you're starting a company, but it is real risk.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_04: It is real risk, right?
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_04: You've done this yourself, it could all just blow up, and it could mean absolutely nothing, your time and effort could mean absolutely nothing, but it's actually not nothing.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_04: Every pe every experience earned is experience earned, and you don't know where you're going to use it.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_04: So, I what's the worst that can happen is the way you get into it and and and you and you see where it goes.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_01: So, so therefore, what you're saying is during recession, look at uh you know, are you delivering value even in a tough environment?
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_01: Is that something that you have to keep rethinking and re-looking at your business and saying, okay, if you are not delivering value, then relook at it because this is a time when every piece of dollar is actually being questioned, right?
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_04: Delivering value, delivering value um by being disruptive, right?
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_04: It's not just about delivering value because there will be many people who will come and deliver value.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_04: That's the only conversation people will have with you during a session, right?
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_04: That I'm coming to you with value, but being disruptive while adding value, being consistent about that disruption, understanding your market environment so well that you have to be 10 steps ahead of the people taking the decision on the money spends.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_04: And it is for us knowledge was the most valuable asset we had.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_04: We knew everything about the industry, we knew everything about every platform that was out there, we knew uh all the cultural nuances that could help us get to content disruption.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_04: It was a combination of all of that that sort of helped us get to where we were.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_04: So that's my that's my uh sort of the way I would sort of sum it up for everyone.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so uh let's dive into the world of uh marketing, advertising, which I think uh you've been so successful.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_01: Uh what do you think uh you know the marketing department of the future uh is going to look like?
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_01: And uh what are you seeing from where you started to where it is today, and how do you see it in the next couple of years?
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_04: Um there's such debate about this.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, you know it, right?
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_04: There's so much debate about how the marketing environment of the future is going to look like.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_04: Um I'll answer how it how it was when we started.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_04: When we started as glitch, marketing was you know in the middle of this, there was a there was you know, it was there was this flux.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_04: We didn't know what had to be done, right?
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_04: There's one side of the the very traditional agencies that said you have to build brand, you have to, you know, build um consistency with with certain kind of advertising, you have to be seen at these places, and that's really you know that uh the traditional matrix of marketing and brand building was was still very much out there.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_04: People like us came in and said, Oh, this is great, you continue to do that, do that once a year.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_04: What you need is is volume, you need speed, you need to be available everywhere, you need to be seen everywhere.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_04: Today, the customer has evolved so much.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_04: Consumers are extremely smart.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_04: So you have it's not about making the you know, every marketing moment is not a moment to market.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_04: That's what I tell my marketers, you know, my my brand managers and CMOs.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_04: We don't have to always be out there talking about something, having an opinion about something because look at the world we live in, right?
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_04: It's all about are you to mind?
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_04: Are you being relevant?
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_04: Are you are you saying the smartest, quickest thing in the in the moment of um, you know, when there is a marketing moment?
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_04: But it honestly isn't about that anymore.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, customers are seeing through that.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_04: Customers are seeing through brands that are not authentic, they see through communication which is done for the sake of community.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_04: So I'll give you an example.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_04: All of you know, Mother's Day, Father's Day, Children's Day, Women's Day, you know, the the Pride Month, all of that when brands sort of lap on to all of these moments, consumers see through it.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_04: The marketing community can you know pat each other on the back, but so many of them can see through it.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_04: And it is about if you if as a brand, we and and my you know, the way I see marketing teams sort of flourish as we move forward, is a combination of people who truly understand culture, which is very important.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_04: So, you know, you are you are someone who really understands what is culturally right, right, culturally relevant, and operate with a sense of responsibility, okay, which is one very important tenant.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_04: The second piece with the evolving platforms we have, understanding technology is very important, extremely important.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_04: So, culture and technology joining hands together, critical.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_04: The third aspect is brand building never goes away, right?
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_04: It is it is it is never going to go away because consumers still connect with the values of a brand, of what they spend their money on, and that part will never go away.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_04: How much we spend our money doing that is questionable.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_04: How do you consistently build brand even through a banner, a post on social, a comment on Twitter, a 140 character tweet, anything, everything has to come back, come back, be pulled back from what your brand really, really stands for.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_04: You have to be culturally relevant, you have to understand technology and learn to play with technology and data, of course, which is a creative director's best friend, and brand building never goes away.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_04: That has to tie everything together.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_04: So, in my view, you don't need bloated marketing teams, you just need someone who understands one person or a combination of two to three people who really understand these three aspects, and you're going to be able to build a brand in the modern world.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_01: So I saw a very interesting comment of yours which said uh get comfortable with silence.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_01: So, uh, is that something that you think uh marketing has to start practicing?
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_04: Oh my god, that is one of the biggest things I you know, I have to so often reply, uh send a message to CEOs and CMOs of our of some of our brands saying, guys, let's not do it right now.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_04: We just need to stay quiet.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_04: You don't have to be the loudest, you know.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_04: We is our need to be the loudest voice.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, you know, uh are we part of those lists that say is the most happening brands on Valentine's Day?
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_04: It only makes you feel good, but it has not impacted the consumer at all.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_04: You have to be able to pull yourself out of those features and really, really get comfortable with silence and listen to your consumer's feedback on the content you put out.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_04: Because if you're not listening to them off the things that because you get feedback almost instantly, right?
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_04: Today, you're not constantly listening to them and being able to apologize when you need to, you're not going to be able to be successful in the world that we live in today.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_00: We interview and learn from high performers so that you can apply these lessons on your journey to becoming the knowledge worker athlete you are meant to be.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_00: The Contraminds Podcast is available on all leading podcast players.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_00: And if you are interested in revisiting past episodes or taking a look at our show notes from this episode, please visit us at www.contraminds.com forward slash blog.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_00: And now back to the show.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_00: Perfect.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_01: So given this uh you know uh kind of a uh you know marketing department that you spoke about, where I think you're talking about uh you know uh culture, you're talking about understanding technology, uh, what kind of skills do you think a marketing department uh needs to have?
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_01: And uh you know, uh in the earlier world it was all about having a brand manager, having a product manager, you know, there are below-the-line specialists.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_01: So, how do you think the marketing department of the future will look like, and what kind of skills do you think you we need to equip ourselves with?
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_04: So I'm gonna say this from the point of me starting a brand.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_04: If I were to have a brand that was up and running today, these are the people that I would have in my marketing team running the show.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_04: Number one, I would have someone who is very strong and has an opinion on social media, which means that this person is um understands how to stay relevant.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_04: If this person understands how to stay relevant, that person is going to be able to keep the brand relevant, which is number one.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_04: Number two, I would have a person or the same person have the ability to really truly understand platform, understand performance.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_04: That is the only way to win in today's world.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_04: The third, I will never disrespect experience and traditional practices.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_04: So it's very important to have someone who understands the traditional aspects of brand building, but is able to mold him or herself into operating with agility and operate and being able to mold themselves to what this complex world of marketing plays.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_04: Because you know, if I the you know, I've joked about this before.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_04: If I had a journalist, I had an IT professional, and I had a brand manager from a traditional company, that would make my marketing team.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_04: That's how I will pull it.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_01: No, brilliant.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_01: I think uh you know the word brand journalism has been spoken about, but it's important that uh you know you get into the culture, you talk you know, you talk about uh you know how do you really communicate, uh, you know, what is it that you will uh you know uh communicate and how do you do these messages and communication is very very important in an emotional manner.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_01: So uh so do you see a uh you know a debate between uh one being tactical and the other being more strategic?
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_01: Because you know, when you sit in a room, uh you know uh a typical old world brand or an advertising uh you know agency would come in and then say, Hey, this is the way to build a brand.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and uh you know it all looks like hey, here is a uh you know a framework, while uh you know the importance of uh the new world agencies understanding the strategic framework and the importance of the strategic guys understanding the uh you know the in-moment marketing, which is also very important.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_01: I think that needs to be a fusion of this, and is that important?
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_04: It is so important, Swami.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_04: It is the need of the hour, and that's the thing that has given me sleepless nights uh over the last few years, which is to get our creative strategic teams to sort of think in a way which is not one-directional, or or I do strategy, and this is what I'm strategic for.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_04: I am a social media leader, and that's the kind of work that I put out.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_04: To be able to merge that has been one of the biggest challenges, you know, over the last few years, because I moved from building an agency that was really all about you know, winning on digital, winning on social, and then sort of, you know, as we grew, you know, bringing on talent that was uh that was very highly strategic and didn't understand uh the need for speed and didn't understand the need for why do we need to get turnaround in you know in a couple of weeks rather than a few months.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_04: Um, you know, it is a challenge.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_04: I do think that um everything is marketing.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_04: There is no tactical strategic marketing.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_04: If you are out there, you're marketing, right?
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_04: And you know, I I think we should take um, you know, um sort of a page from a lot of the young companies who started out recently.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_04: Um brands, I mean, who started out recently who didn't necessarily focus on you know large-scale brand building, but still went out and were able to find some amount of success for themselves, right?
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_04: Let's just sort of look at Mama Earth, for example, and uh there was no large-scale brand building that was done for Mama Earth when they started out.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_04: But uh, or look at Boat, for example, you know, the headphone company didn't go out and build large campaigns, but they've been able to find they've been able to be consistent about a certain kind of philosophy, right?
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_04: That it's Mama Earth talking about certain kind of ingredients or you know, really sort of experimenting with certain kind of ingredients.
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_04: Boat, on the other hand, really going out and being very unique, um, you know, at great value, being able to find very different kinds of disruptors in you know in an environment already crowded headphone market industry.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_04: Both of these companies really have started large-scale brand building after they reached a certain stage, but they'd already reached that peak and they did that.
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_04: It was not distract uh you know, distracted marketing, they were not saying one thing one day and another thing one day, they stuck true to their values.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_04: I am pure about my ingredients and I am a disruptor when it comes to the entire headphone market, so be it the colors they came up with, or be it the kind of you know equipment they came up with.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_04: They've been able to do that, and it and it makes you think that the amount of money that we spend in traditional brand building, these guys have done it in a matter of no time, right?
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_04: So there is that balance again that one has to strike in what we spend how much money and time on, and how it is being able to understand that look at what they've done, they've they put it out there with a certain kind of value system that they believed in as brands, they were constantly experimenting, they were going back and redoing things after listening to feedback consistently, very quickly coming back out there and putting out newer content, newer products, etc.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_00: True.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_04: It is the speed, the agility, the you know, the the DNA of disruption, the DNA of being able, you know, understanding how to win in the digital world.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_04: It's it's it's fabulous.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_04: And and it's something that so many of the traditional brands, you know, I I if if this was two years ago, I would have said, gosh, you guys really need to sit up and take notice.
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_04: But today, everyone has to have and take notice.
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_04: You know, they all know that uh you need to change the way we operate as marketing and agency as marketing and agency partners, uh, you know, when we're putting our product or communication in the market today.
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_01: So uh one challenge uh that uh normally uh you start facing is uh you know, how do you get creativity, how do you get creativity into a data guy?
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_01: And how do you get uh you know uh data into a creative guy?
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, okay.
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_01: Is this not the challenge that you face in an industry?
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_01: And how do you approach this problem?
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_04: Um, you know, so I honestly have only approached this with telling all my data scientists one thing, do not operate with the assumption that you're not creative.
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_04: Because of the amount of knowledge that you are sitting with, the insights that you are sitting on, being able to even identify those insights is a form of creativity, right?
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_04: Because when you mine that data and you're able to form that insight, it is a form of creativity because you put in your own, you know, you there's a lens of perception, there's a sense of value, there's a sense of cultural know-how.
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_04: It's on the basis of that that you form that insight, that is creativity.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_04: You know, when I've said that to people, it has liberated them because suddenly you're going into a creative meaning, not thinking that I'm just the data guy or I'm just the person who's coming with the insight, but someone who has an opinion on what kind of comms will potentially work.
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_04: They may not be writing the headline or writing the tag or coming up with that great jingle.
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_04: They may not be those people, but what they have done is a form of creativity.
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_04: In a similar way, when it comes to creative teams saying, hey, I don't understand data, but especially at Glitch, as we were building glitch, uh, our creative teams were looking at the data on social platforms, looking at trends, looking at what people were talking, and on the basis of that have created some of the biggest award-winning, most impactful communication that we have put out.
• 40:36
  SPEAKER_04: So it is, you know, there is there is no there is no segregation of left and right, in my opinion.
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_04: You know, there the left brain and right brain are truly merged.
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_04: There is obviously uh, you know, one has is better at the other, but there is an intersection.
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_01: And there's only there is only whole brain thinking.
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_04: Exactly.
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_04: There is only whole brain thinking, and uh, if you don't operate with that, because that's important, right?
• 41:03
  SPEAKER_04: You have to set the rules of the land when you run a meeting, and the rules of the land is that there is no left and right brain.
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_04: This is this is you know, we are we are a creative company, and as a creative company, everyone in this organization is creative.
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_01: So uh I'm coming to a very different question.
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, uh, so when you look at uh these creative companies, uh what are the challenges of scaling a services business?
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_01: Because let me give you some uh you know data points.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_01: So uh I was looking at this data uh in 1998, uh WPP was like a$2 billion company, and uh Google was just starting up that year.
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_01: So I looked at the you know 2021 data.
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_01: Uh you know, maybe uh you know I would say uh you know revenue-wise uh WPP is about six billion, but you have uh somebody like uh Google which is at you know probably 24 billion.
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, uh so the nature and scale of not the creativity, but how do you monetize creativity and therefore how do you scale your business has been a challenge, right?
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_01: So, therefore, how do you really scale a services business and how do you build uh you know revenue and monetization for some pretty you know brilliant talent that's out there?
• 42:32
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, again, a good question, and people far smarter than me have answered this very eloquently, but I'm gonna give her my take, which is the fact that you cannot put a price on creativity, and I may want to say that in a meeting room and say, hey, this is priceless, but at the end of the day, someone has to write that check, right?
• 42:52
  SPEAKER_04: And which is why you don't sell creativity, you sell a product, you don't sell a service, you sell a product, and that is important.
• 43:00
  SPEAKER_04: So, what we have done, and you know, while I have for me, advertising is now sort of behind me in a sense, right?
• 43:07
  SPEAKER_04: But what we did as we were building glitch is it was not about the talent or the creative person that came in, and which is why we put value to that creative idea.
• 43:21
  SPEAKER_04: It was the kind of products and services that we created which were tangible, which you could put value on.
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_04: For example, we automated video production.
• 43:32
  SPEAKER_04: For example, there was a certain piece on technology and really building smart tech for um you know things that were happening you know long ago when apps became a big deal and when um you know um personalization became a big deal.
• 43:49
  SPEAKER_04: We create we looked at all of those aspects and added a pro and built products.
• 43:55
  SPEAKER_04: So in any year, we had at least five to ten new products and services.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_04: That we were launching, which is what we priced for, not creativity, because creativity might price may be 100 rupees, someone else's is 50 rupees, right?
• 44:11
  SPEAKER_04: The person is always going to go with the one with 50 rupees, it has to be with what is the product that you take into the market.
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_04: So to answer your question in a more sharper manner, is is a service industry as scalable?
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_04: There is enough evidence to show that it is not as scalable as tech a tech industry or um you know a product industry or a you know an industry like that.
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_04: But if you're able to create um products and services backed by tangible technology, something that a a marketing manager is putting money behind is going to actually be able to see results very, very quickly.
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_04: That's the only way you know you're going to be able to scale up, but not on the back of creative retainers.
• 44:53
  SPEAKER_04: That's not happening anymore.
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_01: So so I think you're making a very, very important point, Poja.
• 44:59
  SPEAKER_01: I think what you're saying is think about productization of your services.
• 45:05
  SPEAKER_01: Is that the future of how uh you know marketing agencies should be thinking and therefore building revenues and uh enveloping services around it, maybe that's really what you're talking about, right?
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_04: In fact, we've been doing that for the last six, seven years as glitch, which is we have we've really branded our services and and created products out of them, right?
• 45:30
  SPEAKER_04: That is how I would say it.
• 45:32
  SPEAKER_04: We've created multiple brands against which we're able to charge a certain amount of dollar for that particular product itself and not necessarily for someone's time on that.
• 45:47
  SPEAKER_01: Brilliant.
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_01: So, therefore, uh you're saying uh delink time to uh an intellectual asset and charge for the intellectual asset, and uh creativity is an outcome of your uh intellectual asset, and that's really the product.
• 46:04
  SPEAKER_03: Absolutely, you said it.
• 46:06
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
• 46:07
  SPEAKER_03: Perfect.
• 46:08
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 46:09
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I'm coming to the next section, uh, which is really around leadership.
• 46:14
  SPEAKER_01: Uh uh, I've seen you uh as a leader who's evolved over years, and uh I think uh what uh really uh you know at least uh I can see is uh you know every uh you know uh interview of yours, every discussion of yours, every podcast of yours, every maybe town hall of yours, uh what I've heard people say is you know you really talk about one interesting point, which is me needs to be the servant of we, right?
• 46:47
  SPEAKER_01: I thought it's a very nice statement.
• 46:49
  SPEAKER_01: And as a leader, how important is it to be a servant of we if you are a leader?
• 46:56
  SPEAKER_04: That is the most important aspect because especially um you know in the environment that I have operated in, because that's how I how I wanted to be led.
• 47:08
  SPEAKER_04: So it comes down to me, which is the fact that if I was not part of uh a decision making, if I was not empowered enough to move and grow in my organization, I would not I was not happy, I would not be successful.
• 47:28
  SPEAKER_04: I have had great leaders who have really empowered me, and that is what I have taken to my own leadership, which is the fact that it is not just about puja's voice, it is not just about puja's opinion, but neither is it a pure plate democracy where no decisions get taken, right?
• 47:51
  SPEAKER_04: It has to be that perfect balance where people feel empowered, and when people feel empowered, magic happens.
• 47:58
  SPEAKER_04: You know, when there is leadership at every level, magic happens.
• 48:02
  SPEAKER_04: When you believe that your leaders have your back, magic happens, right?
• 48:07
  SPEAKER_04: And that is what has worked for me, which is as we built an organization, we were we were conscious of equal opportunity, we were conscious and valued opinions and people's voices, we were conscious of being fearless and and and creating an environment where people could really raise their hand and challenge, right?
• 48:32
  SPEAKER_04: As we did that, we ended up being an organization.
• 48:37
  SPEAKER_04: I want you to know, it was not, you know, these are these are your values and hence you operate in a certain way.
• 48:42
  SPEAKER_04: But when you look back, you look back and say, those are the things we did right, right?
• 48:48
  SPEAKER_04: And which is what I was able to sum up for you right now, that I have seen this been being the most magical revelation to me that an empowered organization is uh an organization that creates magic, and uh that's what I take to the way I like to run my company, my teams, my exco, um, which is it's not just about poodra, uh, but it's about all of us together, and I happen to be the leader of that.
• 49:19
  SPEAKER_01: And this is a simple secret, and why do people find it hard to do this?
• 49:24
  SPEAKER_04: I you know, I don't know, but uh I think it's also a well there's one thing that I say very often, and people take that the wrong way, is that I have great confidence in my own self and great faith in my own self, that I don't need to pull someone else down or not give someone else the light to be able to shine.
• 49:47
  SPEAKER_04: I do believe that good leaders are leaders who are very confident people, who are secure people, because if you are not confident and secure yourself, you will never be able to let anyone else flourish.
• 50:03
  SPEAKER_04: And good leadership, so great leaders are only defined by other people.
• 50:07
  SPEAKER_04: You don't call yourself a great leader, someone else calls you a great leader, right?
• 50:11
  SPEAKER_04: And that only happens if they have felt good under your leadership, right?
• 50:17
  SPEAKER_04: So it it's it's just that my own I'm I have such great faith in myself, Sami.
• 50:23
  SPEAKER_04: It's undying.
• 50:25
  SPEAKER_01: No, no, I I would totally agree, and I think uh you hit the point uh very well, which is being secure about yourself is the first step to being a leader.
• 50:36
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, right?
• 50:37
  SPEAKER_01: Leave your designation, leave whatever, but are you secure about yourself?
• 50:42
  SPEAKER_01: Because insecurity creates a whole host of problems, and I think the reason why you you were able to do that is you are secure about yourself.
• 50:51
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's the answer I was looking for, and you actually gave me that answer.
• 50:55
  SPEAKER_01: So it's a very, very important uh you know thing to learn, and maybe that's the reason uh when you say you know it's a it's a very easy thing to do, but it's the most hard thing to do, right?
• 51:08
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that's really the key.
• 51:10
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I would ask you one other question.
• 51:13
  SPEAKER_01: Uh you were a VP of client strategy, and then you may you transform to being a CEO.
• 51:20
  SPEAKER_01: So, what are the changes that you had to go through when you did this transformation?
• 51:28
  SPEAKER_04: Again, a fabulous question, and I think a qu an answer which I will add value to people growing up, um, the charts in the corporate world.
• 51:38
  SPEAKER_04: Now, when you're VP of client strategy, you run the client strategy aspect of the business.
• 51:46
  SPEAKER_04: You're taking the decisions, the good and the bad are all yours, right?
• 51:50
  SPEAKER_04: It's it's hard, it's amazing, it's also very, very rewarding.
• 51:56
  SPEAKER_04: When you become CEO, you in a sense become a janitor, and I don't mean that in a negative manner.
• 52:04
  SPEAKER_04: You're a janitor, you're a therapist, you're only a problem solver.
• 52:10
  SPEAKER_04: The aspect of the constant um, you know, there are things that reach your desk only when they they reach a certain level, right?
• 52:21
  SPEAKER_04: That's what happens.
• 52:23
  SPEAKER_04: There are a few things that happen at that stage.
• 52:25
  SPEAKER_04: Number one, you st you know the word FOMO was actually is very important here.
• 52:31
  SPEAKER_04: It's the fear of missing out.
• 52:32
  SPEAKER_04: You're suddenly not in all of the meetings anymore.
• 52:35
  SPEAKER_04: You're not the one running, uh, you know, uh that that brainstorm, which is what gave you such joy.
• 52:42
  SPEAKER_04: And you're suddenly focused on on things that were very tactical, that were very executive, important yet executive.
• 52:51
  SPEAKER_04: There's a jo, you know, there is uh I feel that there's a cycle, just like a brief cycle, there is a escalation cycle, there's a growth cycle that you go through.
• 53:00
  SPEAKER_04: There's a part of you which is like, hey, I've got this designation, there's certain expectations from it.
• 53:05
  SPEAKER_04: There's a part of you, I hate this job.
• 53:08
  SPEAKER_04: I really don't like what I actually have to do as this job.
• 53:12
  SPEAKER_04: The moment you get through that acceptance, you have to leave a part of you behind.
• 53:18
  SPEAKER_04: You have to let go, you have to let other people do what you loved to do, you have to let them make their own mistakes.
• 53:26
  SPEAKER_04: There's that cycle, you go through that cycle of acceptance.
• 53:29
  SPEAKER_04: When you have accepted, is when you start doing, you start performing as a CEO, and stop looking at it as just the tactical aspect, but with that massive responsibility that everyone's actually looking to you to lead the ship, right?
• 53:48
  SPEAKER_04: And waking up every morning and coming to work, realizing that the decision that I make today, the conversations that I have with people, the form that I answer, the comment that I may write, an email that I may send out to a young colleague, the value of my time, the value of my opinion, the value of anything that I may do has just gone up hundredfolds.
• 54:19
  SPEAKER_04: It's absolutely humbling, scary, I have to say that, extremely scary, but also immediately makes you a completely different person.
• 54:30
  SPEAKER_04: And you have to constantly train yourself.
• 54:32
  SPEAKER_04: And I have, I'm not shy of that at all.
• 54:35
  SPEAKER_04: In fact, I think I recommend that to everybody.
• 54:37
  SPEAKER_04: But when I took on this job, I started working with professional coaches, I I worked with a therapist to make sure if I was mentally fit, if I was physically strong, my organization is mentally fit, and my organization would be physically strong, right?
• 54:53
  SPEAKER_04: And I made sure that I constantly equipped myself to be the CEO of an organization because you're not a bond CEO, you learn to be CEO.
• 55:04
  SPEAKER_04: I hope I answered your question.
• 55:06
  SPEAKER_01: Brilliant, brilliant.
• 55:07
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, the other thing that I want to uh you know uh ask you is often you're not taught the other functional skills like finance, admin, HR, and suddenly uh you know these are meetings that you need to take.
• 55:21
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, how do you transform to that role when suddenly those functions uh you are not never responsible for uh suddenly come under you and suddenly you look at uh you know uh HR as a cost, uh something as a margin, this as an habita, and uh how so how did you look at it and how did you transform yourself to actually say, you know what?
• 55:45
  SPEAKER_01: I think these are critical components in organizational building.
• 55:48
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, uh and that's a very again, like uh you know, you're right that it's not something that you're taught, it's something that you're shocked when you have to do, right?
• 56:00
  SPEAKER_04: Because when you when you get that job, you're like, hey, it's gonna be business as usual, right?
• 56:04
  SPEAKER_04: And then suddenly I have to do a meeting on tax, and then I have to do a meeting on on gratuity, and I have to do a meeting on uh, you know, with admin on office chairs and lights and ACs.
• 56:17
  SPEAKER_04: You're holding your head, and you suddenly wonder, what all you know, did you really sign up for this?
• 56:23
  SPEAKER_04: But the what I really did is I truly took the time to understand these functions.
• 56:31
  SPEAKER_04: Over time, I learned to value the importance of all of these functions and and not just in in how they feature on my PL, but how important they are as an as an organization scales without um you know finance, HR, admin working together, the organization will never be strong.
• 56:56
  SPEAKER_04: So today, the most important people for me is my CFO, is my chief talent officer.
• 57:03
  SPEAKER_04: The most important people for me are these two people because without finance and people, there is no organization, and you understand that uh over a period of time, but for me, very, very quickly, um uh it was it was quite there were many days where I would come back home wondering that I I'm suddenly not part of that really important pitch that I wanted to be part of, but I just did a meeting on people policies, you know.
• 57:31
  SPEAKER_04: So yeah, it is it's it's a journey, and uh, but you eventually start enjoying all of it.
• 57:37
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and uh a follow-up question to that is uh uh when you are uh you know a VP client strategy or when you are in the midst of uh you know a middle management role, uh 100% of your time goes into uh you know probably a lot of uh client business.
• 57:57
  SPEAKER_01: Uh for the client you you think 100%.
• 58:01
  SPEAKER_01: Uh but when you become a CEO, how much of time did you allocate for strategic thinking for the company?
• 58:08
  SPEAKER_04: Uh I would say that you know 50% of my time was that because um if I was not giving 50% of my time on what the strategic direction of the company was going to be, I was gonna fail.
• 58:22
  SPEAKER_04: Um and I was very conscious of that.
• 58:25
  SPEAKER_04: I'm I'm a planner, just as my natural uh you know, just the way I manage myself and my life and my time.
• 58:34
  SPEAKER_04: It had to be that this is how I was distributing my energy more than my time.
• 58:41
  SPEAKER_04: You know, uh my energy was focused on driving the organization in a certain direction.
• 58:47
  SPEAKER_04: I was very clear, very articulate about that with my technical group on the direction that we had to go in.
• 58:54
  SPEAKER_04: Being able to delegate and let go of my articulation and let everyone else flourish in in the direction that we were going in was equally important, which is why it was only 50%.
• 59:07
  SPEAKER_04: And uh, and which is what has has really helped me.
• 59:11
  SPEAKER_04: All of the leaders that were with us when we started, when you know we reached a certain level as glitch, today are sitting at chief roles in the network.
• 59:22
  SPEAKER_04: Um, all of them have stayed with us all of these years, and today sit in these positions.
• 59:28
  SPEAKER_04: It only happened because the articulation of the goal and the direction that we had was clear, and they flourished in that articulation because they could make it their own and move forward.
• 59:43
  SPEAKER_04: Balance 50% went into everything there else, which was equally important, which was people, and you know, the health of our PML, the ethics with which we run our PML, and how clean our books were.
• 59:58
  SPEAKER_04: All of that really was the balance 50%.
• 1:00:02
  SPEAKER_01: Brilliant.
• 1:00:02
  SPEAKER_01: So, what you're really saying is uh, you know, thinking 50% for the company, uh, you know, was the big transformation that you did from the role that you were doing to the role as you grow grew into a CEO role.
• 1:00:15
  SPEAKER_01: So it's important for people to get prepared for it, right?
• 1:00:18
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, 100%, yeah.
• 1:00:20
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so I'm going to uh you know uh end this with a couple of quick fire questions.
• 1:00:26
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 1:00:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um so my first question to you is uh what does success mean to you, Poja?
• 1:00:33
  SPEAKER_04: Being able to sleep well at night.
• 1:00:37
  SPEAKER_01: My God.
• 1:00:38
  SPEAKER_01: This is an answer that I have not got uh so frequently from others.
• 1:00:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um what is the best piece of advice that you've ever got uh in your life that you can remember?
• 1:00:52
  SPEAKER_04: Uh it was I think um my husband who told me very recently uh that I need to be able to just let it go.
• 1:01:05
  SPEAKER_04: And um, you know, there was it was on the point of um comparison, and he really did tell me that comparison is is a killer of joy.
• 1:01:17
  SPEAKER_04: Uh and I think it was the best advice that he gave me, and it's sort of etched in my mind.
• 1:01:24
  SPEAKER_01: Very good.
• 1:01:26
  SPEAKER_01: Uh what would be the advice you would give to an 18-year-old in a university today?
• 1:01:33
  SPEAKER_04: Have um, if you don't have the fire in your belly, you can create it.
• 1:01:39
  SPEAKER_04: Um you must do the hundred percent.
• 1:01:42
  SPEAKER_04: Uh you must be um unbashedly knocking on doors that you want open for yourself.
• 1:01:51
  SPEAKER_04: You are not the center of anyone else's life.
• 1:01:53
  SPEAKER_04: You're the only you're the hero of your own life.
• 1:01:56
  SPEAKER_04: So take decisions accordingly.
• 1:01:59
  SPEAKER_01: Great.
• 1:02:00
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, what is one thing that uh you believe in that that others don't agree with you on?
• 1:02:08
  SPEAKER_04: That the universe rewards you.
• 1:02:12
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, I have my friends have most often made a lot of fun of me.
• 1:02:16
  SPEAKER_04: I'm a person who has manifested my life.
• 1:02:19
  SPEAKER_04: Today at 36, I can at 37 now I can say that with experience that I've manifested my life.
• 1:02:27
  SPEAKER_04: I wanted to live a certain kind of life, and today I live that life.
• 1:02:31
  SPEAKER_04: And um, I'm a true believer that what you put out into the universe, the energy that you put out into the universe, you find a way to subconsciously work towards that.
• 1:02:40
  SPEAKER_04: There is great power in articulating the kind of life you want to live.
• 1:02:46
  SPEAKER_04: Actually, say, this is the kind of life I want to live, this is what I want to do when I am 30 years old, this is what I this is what I would like from my partner, this is what I would like from my marriage, from my profession.
• 1:02:59
  SPEAKER_04: There is great power in saying it in words and putting it out there because you find a way to make it happen.
• 1:03:07
  SPEAKER_04: And most people don't believe in me, but I think now they've started to.
• 1:03:12
  SPEAKER_01: Brilliant.
• 1:03:13
  SPEAKER_01: Uh uh, if you were to uh you know, uh invite three or four people for a dream dinner, uh who would you invite them and why?
• 1:03:24
  SPEAKER_04: I would not waste my time on anyone else besides my closest friends and family, uh, because I have such limited time, so I have no interest in uh spending my time with people that just don't make me extremely happy.
• 1:03:38
  SPEAKER_04: My life table is full of people I love, and those are the people invited to any dinner that I may host.
• 1:03:45
  SPEAKER_01: Brilliant.
• 1:03:47
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so my last question to you is uh now that you've heard this podcast, now that uh you know you've seen the kind of uh uh questions that we ask, who would be one guest who you think you would recommend for uh this podcast so that you can listen to that person in this podcast?
• 1:04:08
  SPEAKER_05: Oh, that's uh uh that's interesting.
• 1:04:11
  SPEAKER_05: Who would I like on your podcast?
• 1:04:14
  SPEAKER_04: Um, I'm I'm very intrigued by, and I think this may be very off-beat.
• 1:04:21
  SPEAKER_04: I hope it works, you can push you all the way to but I'm very interested in people who work in the World Health Organization because of just the way our world is today, right?
• 1:04:34
  SPEAKER_04: And what all they have to do.
• 1:04:37
  SPEAKER_04: I would be very interested to listen because of how your podcast is and the kind of people that you have bought on and the diversity of the people you got on.
• 1:04:45
  SPEAKER_04: I'd be very interested to listen to someone from from the World Health Organization, someone up there in the World Health Organization, talk to um about their own about decision making, about uh the policies that they set out, because what they do really enables us to live the way we do.
• 1:05:06
  SPEAKER_04: Right?
• 1:05:06
  SPEAKER_01: And and that's what somebody somebody like Saomiya Swaminathan or somebody like that.
• 1:05:12
  SPEAKER_04: Probably who's in who's in the World Health Organization, and probably she's taking you know wide-ranging decisions uh around you know uh the COVID and yeah, yeah, and not just about COVID, but so much about public health.
• 1:05:28
  SPEAKER_01: About public health, correct, about public health.
• 1:05:31
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, thanks a ton, Pooja.
• 1:05:33
  SPEAKER_01: It was lovely talking to you, and uh I really enjoyed the answers that uh you know you shared with me.
• 1:05:39
  SPEAKER_01: It's it was completely uh honest, authentic, and it was really fun talking to you.
• 1:05:46
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you, Song.
• 1:05:47
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I will thoroughly enjoy this conversation as well.
• 1:05:49
  SPEAKER_03: All the best for everything you do.
• 1:05:52
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks for listening to this episode.
• 1:05:55
  SPEAKER_01: For selected links and detailed show notes, visit www.contramines.com slash blog.
• 1:06:03
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• 1:06:09
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• 1:06:14
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• 1:06:17
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• 1:06:27
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks for listening and stay safe.