Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / "I'M NO BLACK WIDOW": PAM SMART SNEARS HIGHSCHOOL LOVER, MURDERS HUSBAND, TO WALK FREE?

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"I'M NO BLACK WIDOW": PAM SMART SNEARS HIGHSCHOOL LOVER, MURDERS HUSBAND, TO WALK FREE? · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
• 0:07
  Speaker 2: I'm no black widow.
• 0:10
  Speaker 3: Pam Smart snares a high school lover to murder her husband.
• 0:15
  Speaker 2: And now she's going to walk free.
• 0:18
  Speaker 3: This after twenty two disciplinary problems behind bars, many of
• 0:24
  Speaker 3: a sexual nature. I'm Nancy Grece. This is Crime Stories.
• 0:28
  Speaker 3: I want to thank you for being with us.
• 0:30
  Speaker 4: Pamela Smart marries her boyfriend Greg, expecting a fairy tale future,
• 0:35
  Speaker 4: but it quickly spirals into tragedy.
• 0:38
  Speaker 3: Pam Smart, a media consultant at a local high school,
• 0:43
  Speaker 3: snares a teen lover and between him and his buddies,
• 0:48
  Speaker 3: manages to murder her husband.
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: But now she's.
• 0:51
  Speaker 2: Set to walk free.
• 0:53
  Speaker 3: Okay, what I don't understand is why he is still
• 0:57
  Speaker 3: in the coffin yet she wants to walk free.
• 1:02
  Speaker 5: Stereo had been removed from the stereo rack and it
• 1:04
  Speaker 5: was pulled out. There was speakers piled up by the
• 1:07
  Speaker 5: rear door where it looked like they had exited. There
• 1:10
  Speaker 5: was jewelry boxes overturned.
• 1:12
  Speaker 6: Gary police find the Smart's condo ransacked and Greg Smart
• 1:16
  Speaker 6: lying in the front entryway with a towel wrapped around
• 1:18
  Speaker 6: his head and a single gunshot wound to the back
• 1:21
  Speaker 6: of his skull. While the condo is messy, a few
• 1:24
  Speaker 6: valuable items are missing, and other things appear to have
• 1:27
  Speaker 6: been left behind in a hurry. Greg Smart still has
• 1:29
  Speaker 6: his wallet in his pocket and his wedding band on
• 1:32
  Speaker 6: his ring finger. Officer's question if Greg's murder was a
• 1:35
  Speaker 6: botched robbery or an execution.
• 1:38
  Speaker 5: That didn't really make a lot of sense because the
• 1:41
  Speaker 5: time of day and night time burglary in a neighborhood
• 1:44
  Speaker 5: like that, there were a lot of residents there.
• 1:47
  Speaker 3: That last sound from our friends over at Oxygen. You
• 1:50
  Speaker 3: may not remember the name Pam Pamela Smart, but I'm
• 1:55
  Speaker 3: sure you remember the name Nicole Kidman and wanted for
• 1:59
  Speaker 3: a mini many fantastic.
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: Performances in To Die For.
• 2:04
  Speaker 3: I'll never forget it because I had investigated the Pam
• 2:07
  Speaker 3: Smart case myself, and then watching the movie really brought
• 2:12
  Speaker 3: it to life as if it needed resurrecting. Joining me
• 2:16
  Speaker 3: an all star panel to make sense of what we
• 2:18
  Speaker 3: know right now, but straight out to Colleen Cron and
• 2:22
  Speaker 3: joining us if that's get a reporter Boston, Harold, Colleen,
• 2:25
  Speaker 3: thank you for being with us. Where is Pam Smart
• 2:28
  Speaker 3: as we speak?
• 2:29
  Speaker 7: So Pam Smart is actually in a jail in New York,
• 2:32
  Speaker 7: even though she was convicted in New Hampshire.
• 2:34
  Speaker 8: So that makes this case a little.
• 2:36
  Speaker 7: Bit complicated because it's sort of playing out in two districts.
• 2:41
  Speaker 3: Colleen, Colleen Cronnin, It's not complicated to me. She a newlywed,
• 2:49
  Speaker 3: started a sex affair with a student fifteen year just
• 2:54
  Speaker 3: turned fifteen years old.
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: Okay, there he is on the right. Lovely picture that said.
• 3:01
  Speaker 3: She starts a sex affair with a teen boy, convinces
• 3:06
  Speaker 3: him her husband is abusing her and the only.
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: Way she can get free is to murder the husband, she.
• 3:13
  Speaker 3: Says, hold on, Colleen, Brandy Kessler joining me, high profile
• 3:18
  Speaker 3: trial lawyer out of the Atlanta jurisdiction, Emmery Law School, professor,
• 3:22
  Speaker 3: former chair ABA Family Law Section, author of Divorce, Protect Yourself,
• 3:27
  Speaker 3: your kids, and your future. Kessler. Let me see Kessler,
• 3:30
  Speaker 3: Please Kessler. She and this is according to sworn testimony,
• 3:36
  Speaker 3: convinced the teen boy that she would lose everything if
• 3:42
  Speaker 3: they got a divorce. They're like twenty five years old,
• 3:46
  Speaker 3: they're sharing a condo.
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: Loose, what the pot in the pan?
• 3:50
  Speaker 9: Right?
• 3:51
  Speaker 10: And that just would convince anybody to go out and
• 3:52
  Speaker 10: commit murdered. I mean Nancy, you share things when you're
• 3:55
  Speaker 10: in a relationship. The relationship was bad, it was not
• 3:57
  Speaker 10: appropriate relationship. But to say my relationship with my husband
• 4:00
  Speaker 10: is bad and then take the leap to that means
• 4:03
  Speaker 10: I want you to go put a bullet in the
• 4:05
  Speaker 10: back of his head.
• 4:06
  Speaker 9: I mean, who's more responsible here? You know her? Maybe
• 4:09
  Speaker 9: she did some bad stuff.
• 4:10
  Speaker 10: It was bad, But he put the bullet in the
• 4:12
  Speaker 10: guy's head and he's walking free.
• 4:14
  Speaker 9: He's out. She's not well.
• 4:16
  Speaker 3: Wait a minute, Wait a minute, hold on, don't know.
• 4:18
  Speaker 3: Wait a minute, Colleen Crannon. Didn't he do hard jail
• 4:23
  Speaker 3: time for this?
• 4:25
  Speaker 7: He was in jail, he had been sentenced to twenty
• 4:27
  Speaker 7: eight years. He got out when he a couple of
• 4:30
  Speaker 7: years ago. He had originally been released on work release.
• 4:34
  Speaker 7: And now he's.
• 4:36
  Speaker 8: Out of prison. And Pamela Smart is the only one
• 4:39
  Speaker 8: of the five people who were convicted in this case
• 4:41
  Speaker 8: who is still in jail.
• 4:43
  Speaker 3: So is that right, Sidney Sumner Sidney is joining us
• 4:46
  Speaker 3: Crime Stori's investigative reporter. Did he get a twenty five
• 4:50
  Speaker 3: year sentence?
• 4:51
  Speaker 1: Is that what the team lover got?
• 4:54
  Speaker 11: Yeah, that's about how much time was spent behind bars.
• 4:58
  Speaker 11: All of these young men were released by the twenty
• 5:02
  Speaker 11: fifth anniversary of Smart's murder. Two of them earlier, the
• 5:07
  Speaker 11: boy that sat in the car and did not participate,
• 5:10
  Speaker 11: and the other boy that waited with him who was
• 5:13
  Speaker 11: the getaway driver. Those two were released earlier. The two
• 5:17
  Speaker 11: that were inside the apartment spent more time behind bars.
• 5:21
  Speaker 11: But Pamela Smart is the only one still in prison
• 5:25
  Speaker 11: for that murder plot.
• 5:27
  Speaker 3: Okay, I'm not quite sure why you're putting the emphasis
• 5:30
  Speaker 3: on that Sidney Sumner, like somehow it's a bad thing
• 5:33
  Speaker 3: that she's still in jail. Let me ask you a yes, No,
• 5:37
  Speaker 3: Sidney Sumner is her husband, you know, the dad guy,
• 5:44
  Speaker 3: the guy that was shot in the head.
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: Is he still in a coffin?
• 5:49
  Speaker 11: He is? Nancy?
• 5:51
  Speaker 3: Oh okay, well then why shouldn't she still be in jail?
• 5:54
  Speaker 3: And I don't like the way Kessler just tossed it
• 5:57
  Speaker 3: off Like the other cokenspiarders got a light sentence.
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: They did not get a light sentence.
• 6:02
  Speaker 3: They got twenty five years behind bars, and many of
• 6:05
  Speaker 3: them did the hard time. It was her idea that
• 6:09
  Speaker 3: was clear, although for years and years and years she
• 6:13
  Speaker 3: said they all lied and she was the only one
• 6:16
  Speaker 3: telling the truth.
• 6:18
  Speaker 12: Pamela Mohas grows up in Darry, New Hampshire, with dreams
• 6:21
  Speaker 12: of becoming a broadcaster. Pamela enrolls at Florida State University,
• 6:25
  Speaker 12: majoring in media performance. Pamela hosts her own radio show,
• 6:29
  Speaker 12: calling herself the Maiden of Metal. Home for the Holidays,
• 6:33
  Speaker 12: Pamela meets fellow metalhead Greg Smart at a Christmas party.
• 6:37
  Speaker 12: In two years, the couple is married, Greg moving to
• 6:40
  Speaker 12: Florida for Pamela's senior year. After graduation, Pamela twenty two,
• 6:44
  Speaker 12: takes a job in New Hampshire as media director at
• 6:47
  Speaker 12: winnikunn At High School.
• 6:49
  Speaker 3: Okay, back to Colleen Crona, what is they quote? Media director?
• 6:53
  Speaker 8: So she did a couple of different things. It seems
• 6:56
  Speaker 8: like she was writing a lot.
• 6:57
  Speaker 7: Of press releases for the school district that she worked
• 7:01
  Speaker 7: in in New Hampshire, sort.
• 7:03
  Speaker 8: Of like a PR specialist in a way.
• 7:06
  Speaker 7: She ended up getting an intern who ended up testifying
• 7:09
  Speaker 7: against her in her accomplist first re murder trial.
• 7:13
  Speaker 3: Okay, why am I seeing photos of her in apparently
• 7:18
  Speaker 3: a strapless bra and underwear?
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: What was that for?
• 7:22
  Speaker 3: Here's my theory, Sidney, that I've told you many many
• 7:25
  Speaker 3: times if you don't want it on page six, don't
• 7:29
  Speaker 3: put it in writing, and for Pete's sake, don't take
• 7:31
  Speaker 3: a picture of it. It will land on page six
• 7:35
  Speaker 3: of the New York Post or the front.
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: Of the Daily Mail.
• 7:38
  Speaker 3: There were two sets of racy photos from Pam Smart
• 7:43
  Speaker 3: that we know of. This was not the set that
• 7:46
  Speaker 3: she sued over. There was another set of racy photos
• 7:51
  Speaker 3: taken by a jail guard, and I can only imagine
• 7:55
  Speaker 3: what they were. She sued over those, and one about
• 7:59
  Speaker 3: twenty three grand. Her lawyer got most of it. So
• 8:02
  Speaker 3: miss Thing has been responsible for quite a series of
• 8:06
  Speaker 3: so called racy photos.
• 8:08
  Speaker 1: That does not make her a killer.
• 8:11
  Speaker 11: Well. She sued several tabloid lines from behind bars in
• 8:17
  Speaker 11: her twenty three hour a day isolation. She charged these
• 8:22
  Speaker 11: tabloids with releasing these photos without her permission. And these
• 8:26
  Speaker 11: were in magazines in the supermarket.
• 8:29
  Speaker 3: Nancy, Okay, Well, didn't I just tell you, if you
• 8:32
  Speaker 3: don't run on page six of the New York Post,
• 8:34
  Speaker 3: don't put it in writing, and for Pete's sake, don't
• 8:36
  Speaker 3: take a picture of it.
• 8:37
  Speaker 1: Didn't you hear me? Just say that, Sidney, that's a yes.
• 8:39
  Speaker 11: No, absolutely, yeah, no, gravi.
• 8:42
  Speaker 3: Okay, well she did, and there it ends up everybody
• 8:45
  Speaker 3: looking at it when they're checking out their skim milk.
• 8:48
  Speaker 1: Okay that said. Back to the murder, this is where
• 8:51
  Speaker 1: it all starts.
• 8:52
  Speaker 6: Well, the newlywed seem happy as can be, decorating their
• 8:55
  Speaker 6: dairy condo and adopting Shitsu Halen together, there's trouble in paradise.
• 9:00
  Speaker 6: Seven months after their wedding, Pamela begins spending more time
• 9:03
  Speaker 6: at school, volunteering for a drug awareness program. Pamela takes
• 9:07
  Speaker 6: on a student intern, Cecilia Peers, who introduces the beautiful
• 9:10
  Speaker 6: twenty two year old blonde teacher to sophomore William Billy Flynn.
• 9:15
  Speaker 6: Pamela smart entertains and encourages all of Flynn's flirting, and
• 9:18
  Speaker 6: it's not long before she's having a full blown sexual
• 9:22
  Speaker 6: affair with a fifteen year old student.
• 9:24
  Speaker 3: Okay, there you go, so you know, back to you,
• 9:28
  Speaker 3: Randy Kessler, veteran trial lawyer in the Atlanta jurisdiction and beyond.
• 9:34
  Speaker 3: So when you pick co defendants to carry out a murder,
• 9:38
  Speaker 3: it's probably best that you don't pick a high school girl.
• 9:42
  Speaker 2: Agree or disagree, high school.
• 9:45
  Speaker 9: Girl, you shouldn't take anybody to co defend.
• 9:48
  Speaker 3: But I agree, Okay Kessler, I think that sadly you're
• 9:54
  Speaker 3: missing my point.
• 9:56
  Speaker 1: Of course, don't commit a murder.
• 9:58
  Speaker 3: Doesn't that go without say, don't kill anybody?
• 10:02
  Speaker 1: But if you are going to.
• 10:04
  Speaker 3: Kill somebody and you have to include co defendants, I
• 10:07
  Speaker 3: think a Gabby high school girl is probably not the
• 10:11
  Speaker 3: best choice. Now that I've explained it to you and
• 10:14
  Speaker 3: served it up to you on a silver platter, do
• 10:16
  Speaker 3: you think you can answer now?
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: No offense?
• 10:19
  Speaker 10: But I think, really well, the fence is taken when
• 10:22
  Speaker 10: you say when you plan a murder and you because
• 10:26
  Speaker 10: I wouldn't plan a murder and I wouldn't think like that.
• 10:28
  Speaker 10: But yes, you know, nothing about this was smart. None
• 10:31
  Speaker 10: about this was well conceived. But the truth of the
• 10:34
  Speaker 10: matter is she didn't kill him. It would have been
• 10:37
  Speaker 10: It would have been worse had she done the killing
• 10:39
  Speaker 10: and pull out the gun. She at least had a
• 10:41
  Speaker 10: chance to get away with it by having somebody else
• 10:43
  Speaker 10: do it that had a different motive, which was to
• 10:46
  Speaker 10: continue relationship with her.
• 10:47
  Speaker 9: So it wasn't the stupidest plan of the world. It
• 10:50
  Speaker 9: was not smart like her name.
• 10:51
  Speaker 10: But it was There's no way to say, what's the
• 10:54
  Speaker 10: smartest way to plan a murder like this? In my opinion,
• 10:57
  Speaker 10: but I get what you're saying. It's a smarter it's
• 10:59
  Speaker 10: smarter to get a boy than a girl to do it.
• 11:02
  Speaker 9: I don't know.
• 11:03
  Speaker 3: No, I'm saying that anytime you involve a high school
• 11:07
  Speaker 3: student or a defendant that has a lack of maturity,
• 11:11
  Speaker 3: you can count on them blabbing at the drop of
• 11:14
  Speaker 3: a hat. And they all did, not just the girl.
• 11:18
  Speaker 3: They all did. So let's be clear about what the
• 11:23
  Speaker 3: law actually is. You, Randy Kessler, continue to keep stating
• 11:29
  Speaker 3: she didn't pull the trigger.
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: Well, that's simply not the law.
• 11:34
  Speaker 3: If she masterminded the murder and convinced someone else to
• 11:38
  Speaker 3: commit the murder and planned the murder, then she is
• 11:44
  Speaker 3: just as responsible, if not more so, than the minions
• 11:48
  Speaker 3: that carried it out.
• 11:50
  Speaker 1: That's the law. Do you disagree with my rendition of
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: the law?
• 11:53
  Speaker 9: I didn't know. I didn't and I don't. I think
• 11:56
  Speaker 9: you're right on the law.
• 11:57
  Speaker 10: But you were talking about is it smart If you're
• 11:59
  Speaker 10: going to commit a murder, it's smarter not to pull
• 12:02
  Speaker 10: the trigger.
• 12:03
  Speaker 3: Oh kay, you keep saying she didn't pull the trigger.
• 12:06
  Speaker 3: She didn't pull the trigger. Are you contesting the fact
• 12:10
  Speaker 3: that she planned the whole thing? Are you saying she
• 12:12
  Speaker 3: didn't plan it, She had nothing.
• 12:13
  Speaker 1: To do with it.
• 12:14
  Speaker 10: Look, you know the jury decided, So you go with
• 12:16
  Speaker 10: what the jury decided. And this is hindsight. But did
• 12:18
  Speaker 10: she have a good defense?
• 12:20
  Speaker 9: Yes? Was it harder to convict her than someone who
• 12:22
  Speaker 9: pulled the trigger? Yes?
• 12:24
  Speaker 10: Was there a plausible defense and plausible argument she could make? Yes,
• 12:28
  Speaker 10: her marriage was bad. She talked about her bad marriage
• 12:30
  Speaker 10: with her boyfriend and her paramour and the sering student.
• 12:33
  Speaker 10: But you know, the jury had to make the leap
• 12:35
  Speaker 10: that she actually went overboard and convinced him to kill
• 12:39
  Speaker 10: her husband.
• 12:40
  Speaker 9: At least that was a.
• 12:40
  Speaker 10: Better defense than if she would call it with the
• 12:43
  Speaker 10: possession of the gun that actually murdered her husband.
• 12:46
  Speaker 9: So you know the law.
• 12:49
  Speaker 3: Yes, you're right, Kessler, You're right. She had to convince
• 12:53
  Speaker 3: a jury that the shooter and his friends, the shooter
• 12:58
  Speaker 3: was actually her teen lover and his friends did this
• 13:02
  Speaker 3: on their own, that she never instigated them to do it.
• 13:07
  Speaker 3: She may have complained about her marriage, Yes, she may
• 13:10
  Speaker 3: have involved a teen boy and a sex tryst. Yes,
• 13:15
  Speaker 3: that's bad enough. But her argument would have been that
• 13:19
  Speaker 3: he decided to murder Greg Smart all on his own.
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: You're absolutely right, what choice did she have?
• 13:27
  Speaker 3: Okay, let me ask you this to Colleen Crone and
• 13:30
  Speaker 3: joining US investigative reporter Boston Harold, Colleen, how did she convince?
• 13:37
  Speaker 3: What did she offer the co defendants in exchange for murder?
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: What did they get out of the deal.
• 13:44
  Speaker 7: Jillie Flynn was wanted to continue seeing her, and so
• 13:48
  Speaker 7: the you know, murder kind of.
• 13:50
  Speaker 8: Was predicated on their relationship being able to continue better.
• 13:59
  Speaker 2: Crime story with Nancy Gray.
• 14:05
  Speaker 3: Sidney Sumner I seem to recall, in addition to what
• 14:07
  Speaker 3: Colleen told us, that there was the promise of five
• 14:11
  Speaker 3: hundred dollars in some stereo equipment something like that.
• 14:15
  Speaker 11: Right, So continuing the relationship was enough to lure Flynn
• 14:19
  Speaker 11: into doing this. But those three other boys weren't just
• 14:23
  Speaker 11: going to break into somebody's apartment and kill someone to
• 14:28
  Speaker 11: make their friend happy. So these other three boys were
• 14:32
  Speaker 11: lured into this murder on the promise of all of
• 14:36
  Speaker 11: the valuables from the Smart condo and five hundred dollars
• 14:41
  Speaker 11: worth of insurance money that Pamela Smart was set to
• 14:45
  Speaker 11: receive when her husband died there.
• 14:48
  Speaker 3: You see, Greg smart, and we are blurring much of
• 14:51
  Speaker 3: it out of respect for his family. They don't need
• 14:54
  Speaker 3: to see all of this again. We're blurring the worst
• 14:57
  Speaker 3: photos right there in the four of his condo. I
• 15:02
  Speaker 3: don't get it back to Randy Kessler joining us, and
• 15:06
  Speaker 3: then to board certified forensic psychologist Alison Paganelli joining us.
• 15:11
  Speaker 3: But Randy, this isn't the first time we've seen this happen.
• 15:17
  Speaker 3: There's something about domestic law, as they call it, family law, divorce, custody.
• 15:23
  Speaker 3: I've had veteran criminal defense attorneys tell me they would
• 15:28
  Speaker 3: rather defend a drug lord or a killer as opposed
• 15:32
  Speaker 3: to getting involved in a domestic dispute such as a divorce,
• 15:36
  Speaker 3: because the lawyers are afraid they'll get shot. Why not
• 15:40
  Speaker 3: just get the divorce, go your separate ways, and start
• 15:43
  Speaker 3: your life over. Why resort to murder? We've asked it
• 15:48
  Speaker 3: a million times.
• 15:51
  Speaker 10: I ask it all the time of myself, and we
• 15:53
  Speaker 10: talked about it in our office with our staff, you know.
• 15:55
  Speaker 10: And all we can come down to is the person
• 15:57
  Speaker 10: that you're mad at is right. It's human rejection. The
• 16:02
  Speaker 10: person you committed your life to, you went all in.
• 16:04
  Speaker 10: You promised God and your family this was the person
• 16:06
  Speaker 10: for you, and they're telling you they don't want you,
• 16:09
  Speaker 10: you're not good enough, they reject you, and people just snap.
• 16:13
  Speaker 13: You know.
• 16:13
  Speaker 10: It's not like a murder or a car accident where
• 16:15
  Speaker 10: it's planned and there's a one day.
• 16:16
  Speaker 9: This is a build up, build up, build up, and
• 16:19
  Speaker 9: the judge imposes.
• 16:20
  Speaker 10: A solution and says you're not going to see your
• 16:22
  Speaker 10: kids for two weeks, you're not gonna have the money
• 16:24
  Speaker 10: you thought you had, and people don't know how to react.
• 16:27
  Speaker 10: They snap. That's the best we can come up with.
• 16:29
  Speaker 10: Human beings are human beings, and they lose control. And
• 16:32
  Speaker 10: it's what scares all of us as family lawyer, is
• 16:34
  Speaker 10: that you never know when that breaking point.
• 16:36
  Speaker 9: Is going to happen.
• 16:38
  Speaker 10: But yes, an easiest, simple and amical divorce, a well
• 16:42
  Speaker 10: thought out divorce, is the solution.
• 16:44
  Speaker 9: If you're not happy, this is not the solution.
• 16:47
  Speaker 3: You know she was How old was she, Colleen Cronnin
• 16:50
  Speaker 3: when she had her you're saying crime seeing footage right there,
• 16:53
  Speaker 3: just as the jury did. How old was she when
• 16:57
  Speaker 3: she ordered the hit on her husband?
• 17:00
  Speaker 14: She was twenty two when she was convicted, which was
• 17:03
  Speaker 14: in nineteen ninety one, and the murder happened in nineteen ninety,
• 17:05
  Speaker 14: so she was relatively young, older than the boys who
• 17:09
  Speaker 14: committed the crime, but relatively young when it happened.
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: So she's twenty two and they're what fifteen? Is that correct?
• 17:16
  Speaker 9: Onlyeen?
• 17:17
  Speaker 7: Billief when was sixteen when he committed the crime.
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: So she was relatively young.
• 17:28
  Speaker 3: But murderers have been put away at age twenty two
• 17:32
  Speaker 3: for as long as I've been practicing law, and a
• 17:35
  Speaker 3: lot and many many years before that. Now tonight, as
• 17:40
  Speaker 3: we go to air, Pam Smart is seeking release from
• 17:44
  Speaker 3: behind bars, and I wonder if the appellate court and
• 17:51
  Speaker 3: the Parole Board is looking into the case in the
• 17:55
  Speaker 3: depth that we are, because I haven't forgotten Greg Smart,
• 18:00
  Speaker 3: and I haven't forgotten the pain his family endured. Straight
• 18:03
  Speaker 3: out to Alison Paganelli joining US board certified forensic pathologist
• 18:08
  Speaker 3: over eighteen years experience, and you can find her at
• 18:11
  Speaker 3: the website Parkdeetsassociates dot com. Allison, thank you for being
• 18:16
  Speaker 3: with us tonight. We keep dwelling on the youth of
• 18:21
  Speaker 3: the defendants and the youth of her. Pam Smart played
• 18:25
  Speaker 3: on the big screen bite Nicole Kidman, but that youth
• 18:30
  Speaker 3: is a double edged sword because Smart's family devastated. He
• 18:37
  Speaker 3: was young too, devastated when their son, their baby boy,
• 18:43
  Speaker 3: their brother was cut down in his youth as well,
• 18:48
  Speaker 3: with this whole life before him by Pam Smart, who
• 18:53
  Speaker 3: was getting it on with a sixteen of then fifteen.
• 18:57
  Speaker 2: Year old boy at school. What about their suffer.
• 19:00
  Speaker 15: Allison, Well, you know, I think the suffering they've had
• 19:06
  Speaker 15: to go through over and over as each of the
• 19:09
  Speaker 15: co conspirators have have appealed and gotten out early and
• 19:14
  Speaker 15: those type of things has been horrible. But I think,
• 19:18
  Speaker 15: particularly involving Pam Smart, their son brother's wife, is that
• 19:25
  Speaker 15: she has not really taken one hundred percent responsibility or
• 19:30
  Speaker 15: at least matched up her story with what the evidence
• 19:33
  Speaker 15: has shown. I believe it's just been in twenty twenty
• 19:37
  Speaker 15: four where she said I'm responsible. But when I talk about,
• 19:41
  Speaker 15: you know, taking responsibility, you know, thinking about how devastating
• 19:45
  Speaker 15: things have been for her husband's family, but also these
• 19:48
  Speaker 15: teenagers that she got involved in this plot, how much
• 19:53
  Speaker 15: how it impacts their relationships going forward. For a fifteen
• 19:58
  Speaker 15: year old to be having sex or someone in their twenties. Yeah,
• 20:01
  Speaker 15: they're all young, but fifteen and twenty one. It's six years,
• 20:06
  Speaker 15: but it's a big six years of difference, and so
• 20:10
  Speaker 15: for her to not acknowledge, you know, what they went
• 20:14
  Speaker 15: through carrying this out, which is horrible, but they were
• 20:17
  Speaker 15: also really young. But really she's just more focused on me, Mimi,
• 20:22
  Speaker 15: why can't I get out? Everyone else got out. I
• 20:24
  Speaker 15: didn't even pull the trigger. So yes, every time she
• 20:28
  Speaker 15: comes up with another court battle, the Smart family is,
• 20:34
  Speaker 15: you know, re traumatized again and probably just just wanting
• 20:37
  Speaker 15: her to acknowledge her part and the whole thing, which
• 20:40
  Speaker 15: is the main part.
• 20:42
  Speaker 3: Else Paganelli, I appreciate pointing out how young the other
• 20:49
  Speaker 3: defendants were at the time they murdered Greg Smart. They
• 20:57
  Speaker 3: are out living their lives now, is still in a coffin.
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: His family still visits his grave. That's a big difference,
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: don't you think it's a huge difference.
• 21:10
  Speaker 7: It is.
• 21:11
  Speaker 16: Flynn runs his plans past Cecilia and Smart after school. Flynn,
• 21:15
  Speaker 16: Patrick Randall Vance j R. Latamie, and Raymond Fowler will
• 21:19
  Speaker 16: take Ladimie's car to Smart's condo. Fowler and Ladimie will
• 21:23
  Speaker 16: wait in the car while Flynn and Randall go inside
• 21:26
  Speaker 16: take what they want until Greg arrives home, then kill
• 21:29
  Speaker 16: him and make off with the stolen items. The gun
• 21:32
  Speaker 16: is only meant as a backup plan, but when Greg
• 21:34
  Speaker 16: tries to flee, Randall can't hold Greg still enough to
• 21:38
  Speaker 16: stab him with his knife, and it's Flynn who pulls
• 21:40
  Speaker 16: the trigger of Ladimi's father's gun, killing Greg Smart.
• 21:44
  Speaker 4: Emmela and Greg meet over Christmas break. Three years later,
• 21:47
  Speaker 4: they say I do, but just seven months into their marriage,
• 21:51
  Speaker 4: their once happy relationship unravels.
• 21:55
  Speaker 3: Tonight, Pam Smart is going before an appellate court demanding release. True,
• 22:04
  Speaker 3: her co defendants have been released, but she was the mastermind.
• 22:08
  Speaker 3: She was the mastermind and back out to Colleen cron
• 22:12
  Speaker 3: and joining US investigative reporter Boston Harold. You mentioned at
• 22:15
  Speaker 3: the get go that she Pam Smart, is now in
• 22:19
  Speaker 3: New York. Why was she moved from her original CI
• 22:22
  Speaker 3: Correctional Institute.
• 22:24
  Speaker 17: Well, when prisoners have issues at certain jails, sometimes they're
• 22:27
  Speaker 17: moved somewhere else. Sometimes that's more often because there might
• 22:31
  Speaker 17: be some gang issues, But when you also have disciplinary
• 22:33
  Speaker 17: issues that can be a cause for moving to a different.
• 22:36
  Speaker 3: Jail, disciplinary issues like Sidney Sumner. What disciplinary issues did
• 22:41
  Speaker 3: Pam Smart have?
• 22:43
  Speaker 11: Well, one of the largest. She was beaten to merely
• 22:48
  Speaker 11: a pulp because she inserted herself in between two other
• 22:53
  Speaker 11: inmates relationship and they believed she had snitched to be
• 22:59
  Speaker 11: more about what was going on and gotten them separated.
• 23:03
  Speaker 11: So she was beaten to a pulp.
• 23:05
  Speaker 3: Actually, she had a drug possession charge punished for possessing tramadol,
• 23:14
  Speaker 3: also contraband. She had a cake knife in her cell.
• 23:21
  Speaker 3: Sex misconduct she had sex contact with a fellow inmate
• 23:26
  Speaker 3: at the New Hampshire State Prison for Women. Unsafe behavior accusations,
• 23:31
  Speaker 3: twenty two disciplinary reports in all okay, one of the
• 23:38
  Speaker 3: reasons she was transferred to New York out of her
• 23:43
  Speaker 3: original CI.
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: What was the big.
• 23:48
  Speaker 3: Unraveling again, it all goes back to having co defendants.
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: That are teens.
• 23:56
  Speaker 3: I want to go to doctor Kendall Crown's joining US
• 24:00
  Speaker 3: Chief Medical Examiner Arrant County.
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: That's fort Worth.
• 24:04
  Speaker 3: He is the star of a hit podcast, Mayhem in
• 24:07
  Speaker 3: the Morgue, which is awesome. He is an esteemed lecturer
• 24:11
  Speaker 3: at the Burnett School of Medicine at TCU. Doctor Crowns,
• 24:15
  Speaker 3: thank you for being with us tonight. Could you describe
• 24:18
  Speaker 3: the wound, the mortal wound sustained by Greg Smart.
• 24:24
  Speaker 18: So he had a single contact range gunshot wound to
• 24:28
  Speaker 18: the side of his head. Contact range wounds usually mean
• 24:32
  Speaker 18: it's about six inches off the skin. The muzzle flash
• 24:35
  Speaker 18: burns the actual skin, causing a sear mark, and then
• 24:39
  Speaker 18: you get soot from the gases being released by the
• 24:42
  Speaker 18: bullet firing that embed into the skin as well. So
• 24:45
  Speaker 18: you have this soot and sear showing that it's a
• 24:48
  Speaker 18: contact range wound. The wound then passed through his skin,
• 24:52
  Speaker 18: his skull, and his brain. The bullet itself was a
• 24:54
  Speaker 18: hollow nose bullet, so that means it mushroomed to cause
• 24:58
  Speaker 18: maximal tissue dam image as it went through the brain.
• 25:02
  Speaker 3: When you say hollow nose, I refer to it as
• 25:05
  Speaker 3: a HaLow point. Could you explain why those are so evil?
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: What happens with the HaLow point?
• 25:12
  Speaker 18: So with the hollow point, when the tissue hits the
• 25:16
  Speaker 18: nose of the bullet, it causes the nose to expand
• 25:19
  Speaker 18: because it has this divot or the hollow portion of
• 25:22
  Speaker 18: the nose of the bullet, which has little kind of
• 25:25
  Speaker 18: cut marks in it. So it expands into little pedals,
• 25:29
  Speaker 18: and these petals expand out and fold back and make
• 25:33
  Speaker 18: the size of the bullet bigger, so it tears through
• 25:37
  Speaker 18: more tissue and causes a lot more damage. And it
• 25:41
  Speaker 18: also makes the bullet stop quicker so it doesn't exit
• 25:44
  Speaker 18: the head so you don't hit other targets.
• 25:46
  Speaker 3: Doctor Kendall crowns, that sounds terrible. And throughout my history
• 25:54
  Speaker 3: and law enforcement and prosecuting, a HaLow point was considered
• 25:59
  Speaker 3: the worst.
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: Do you agree or disagree? And why so?
• 26:05
  Speaker 18: Holow points are quite bad because of the expansion causing
• 26:09
  Speaker 18: maximal tissue damage. The one thing is is high powered
• 26:13
  Speaker 18: rifle bullets I feel are the worst because they have
• 26:15
  Speaker 18: so much kinetic energy they basically turn everything into mush.
• 26:20
  Speaker 18: But hollow points are up there in the category of
• 26:23
  Speaker 18: really bad bullets because of that expansion and the tearing.
• 26:27
  Speaker 18: And another thing is for the forensic pathologist is those
• 26:30
  Speaker 18: little petals can have sharp edges on them, so when
• 26:33
  Speaker 18: we're retrieving them from the body, they can actually cut
• 26:36
  Speaker 18: our gloves or puncture our skins. So they're bullets we
• 26:39
  Speaker 18: don't like seeing.
• 26:41
  Speaker 3: And the hollow point Doctor Kendall Crown's tour through Greg Smart,
• 26:46
  Speaker 3: aged twenty four's head. Do we know the path it
• 26:51
  Speaker 3: took the trajectory path.
• 26:55
  Speaker 18: I don't know the exact path, but based on where
• 26:58
  Speaker 18: they said, the bullet was probably gone through the bridle
• 27:02
  Speaker 18: lobe of the brain, which has what we call the
• 27:04
  Speaker 18: motor strip in it. And the motor strip is what
• 27:07
  Speaker 18: controls your body functions, your movements, everything like that. So
• 27:11
  Speaker 18: it would have instantly incapacitated him, and then it would
• 27:15
  Speaker 18: have continued through other brain structures, possibly the brain stem,
• 27:18
  Speaker 18: killing him instantly.
• 27:20
  Speaker 3: According to it I read in the autopsy report, it
• 27:23
  Speaker 3: entered just above the left ear. How does that jive
• 27:29
  Speaker 3: with your analysis?
• 27:32
  Speaker 18: That would be about right left ear would be right
• 27:36
  Speaker 18: around here. That is the bridle lobe of the brain,
• 27:39
  Speaker 18: and that controls motor functions, things of that nature and speech.
• 27:44
  Speaker 18: As it passes through the bridle lobe, you have a
• 27:48
  Speaker 18: possibility of passing through the brain stem because it would
• 27:51
  Speaker 18: sit around that left ear level, and then once it
• 27:54
  Speaker 18: goes through that, it would basically be lights out, killing
• 27:57
  Speaker 18: him instantly.
• 28:00
  Speaker 3: When you're saying what are you saying? What type of
• 28:02
  Speaker 3: lobe are you saying?
• 28:05
  Speaker 18: Bridle lobe? See, your brain has multiple different lobes frontal, paridal, temporal,
• 28:11
  Speaker 18: and occipital, and each one of them has different functions
• 28:14
  Speaker 18: of course, and the bridal lobe does a lot of
• 28:17
  Speaker 18: sensory control, motor control, things of that nature.
• 28:22
  Speaker 3: And again, doctor Kendl Crowns, you stated that there was
• 28:26
  Speaker 3: soot around the entry wound. There was no exit wound
• 28:33
  Speaker 3: for the reasons you explained.
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: Are you refering to.
• 28:37
  Speaker 18: Stipling now, So, stippling is a little different than sot.
• 28:42
  Speaker 18: Stippling is when you get a little past that six
• 28:45
  Speaker 18: inches and you're between six inches and two to three feet.
• 28:50
  Speaker 18: Stippling is the actual gunpowder grains hitting the skin and
• 28:54
  Speaker 18: braiding the skin or embedding into the skin causing gunpowder tattooing,
• 28:58
  Speaker 18: whereas soot when you're in a clothes surrange is actually
• 29:01
  Speaker 18: all that gunpowder, instead of being widespread causing the sipling,
• 29:06
  Speaker 18: are all together forming this massive black, kind of sooty
• 29:11
  Speaker 18: area around the wound. So it's more of the smoke
• 29:16
  Speaker 18: caused from the gunshot combined with all the unburned gunpowder
• 29:20
  Speaker 18: hitting the wound causing the soot and stipling. But this
• 29:23
  Speaker 18: is more just an action of all the soot on
• 29:26
  Speaker 18: the wound along with burning from the muzzle flash.
• 29:31
  Speaker 5: Yes, it's emergency is for you just Summer killed condominium.
• 29:36
  Speaker 8: There's someone passed out.
• 29:38
  Speaker 19: I don't know.
• 29:39
  Speaker 11: A girl is hysterical in here.
• 29:40
  Speaker 18: She just ran over.
• 29:41
  Speaker 11: Her husband is passed out.
• 29:43
  Speaker 4: As tension grows at home, Pamela meets a fifteen year
• 29:46
  Speaker 4: old boy and fixates on him getting into a new
• 29:49
  Speaker 4: secret relationship.
• 29:51
  Speaker 13: I think he told you the story about what about
• 29:53
  Speaker 13: how they did it, how they did killed good. So
• 30:02
  Speaker 13: I went there and they broke into place and they
• 30:07
  Speaker 13: set it up to.
• 30:08
  Speaker 20: Make it look like Burgerly And.
• 30:10
  Speaker 13: I guess the guy who tried to run of something.
• 30:13
  Speaker 20: And they grabbed him.
• 30:14
  Speaker 13: They threw his dog in the cella. He said he
• 30:17
  Speaker 13: held the guy's head on both shows.
• 30:20
  Speaker 3: That from our friends at ABC twenty twenty, and that
• 30:23
  Speaker 3: is Ralph Welch, so Sidney Summer. Who is this guy?
• 30:29
  Speaker 3: Ralph Welch.
• 30:31
  Speaker 11: The Welch is not one of the four that participated
• 30:35
  Speaker 11: in this murder plot. He learned of it second hand
• 30:39
  Speaker 11: from one of the teams that did participate and was concerned.
• 30:45
  Speaker 11: He went to j. R. Latimie's father and told the
• 30:49
  Speaker 11: man that his thirty eight pistol maybe the murder weapon,
• 30:54
  Speaker 11: and Ladimie turned that gun over to police. He noticed
• 30:58
  Speaker 11: that it had been recently clean and questioned why that
• 31:02
  Speaker 11: would have happened. He didn't recently use the gun. So
• 31:06
  Speaker 11: once Vladimi went to police with that gun and told
• 31:09
  Speaker 11: then who told him that the gun may have been
• 31:13
  Speaker 11: the murder weapon, Ralph Welch was pulled straight into an
• 31:16
  Speaker 11: interrogation room.
• 31:18
  Speaker 3: Let's take a look at Welch again. That's what he
• 31:20
  Speaker 3: gets for cleaning the gun.
• 31:22
  Speaker 5: He told you the story about what about how White
• 31:24
  Speaker 5: told me how they did it, how they did what
• 31:29
  Speaker 5: killed Greg Slant.
• 31:32
  Speaker 13: So they went there and they broke into place, and
• 31:38
  Speaker 13: they set it up to make it look like very
• 31:40
  Speaker 13: early and I guess the guy who tried to run
• 31:43
  Speaker 13: at something and they grabbed him. They threw his dog
• 31:45
  Speaker 13: in the cellar. He said he held the guy's head
• 31:48
  Speaker 13: with both shows. Yeah, five hundred dollars. Is that what
• 31:53
  Speaker 13: Pam was paying them or that's what they said she
• 31:55
  Speaker 13: was going to be said, and you're talking about Pam,
• 31:59
  Speaker 13: which the guys.
• 32:03
  Speaker 9: Pam Smart.
• 32:07
  Speaker 3: From our friends at ABC twenty twenty. Sidney Sumner, the
• 32:11
  Speaker 3: five convicted in Greg Smart's murder.
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: Some of them claimed that.
• 32:17
  Speaker 3: Greg Smart was killed by accident, that he struggled, that
• 32:21
  Speaker 3: it was never the plan to shoot him, and that
• 32:25
  Speaker 3: he ended up getting shot in the head, which I
• 32:27
  Speaker 3: find very unusual because the whole point was not to
• 32:31
  Speaker 3: steal the stereo equipment. The whole point was to kill
• 32:34
  Speaker 3: Greg Smart so pam Smart could be free.
• 32:38
  Speaker 11: Right. I don't think either of the teams in that
• 32:42
  Speaker 11: apartment truly believed that Greg Smart being shot was an accident.
• 32:47
  Speaker 11: I do think they intended to use a nice to
• 32:51
  Speaker 11: kill him, because a gunshot in a condominium apartment that
• 32:55
  Speaker 11: would obviously draw a lot of attention. Yeah, and the
• 32:59
  Speaker 11: gunshot was not heard by other people because police didn't
• 33:03
  Speaker 11: arrive for hours until Pamela Smart arrived home and called
• 33:07
  Speaker 11: ninety one to one. But yet they intended to kill
• 33:09
  Speaker 11: him in a more wiet way.
• 33:12
  Speaker 3: But you know, doctor Kendall Crown's it struck me at
• 33:14
  Speaker 3: the get go.
• 33:15
  Speaker 1: If he had soot.
• 33:17
  Speaker 3: Around the wound, that means it was a close range,
• 33:22
  Speaker 3: very close range shooting. And I don't know how right
• 33:27
  Speaker 3: behind the left ear close range practically a contact wound
• 33:31
  Speaker 3: could be an accident.
• 33:34
  Speaker 18: I know that to me, that doesn't sound like an
• 33:37
  Speaker 18: accident unless there was some sort of struggle or something
• 33:40
  Speaker 18: with the gun. But the back of the head or
• 33:42
  Speaker 18: the back of the side of the head. Really seems
• 33:44
  Speaker 18: more like an execution than anything else. It doesn't sound
• 33:48
  Speaker 18: like a struggle at all to me.
• 33:50
  Speaker 3: Randy Casseler has tried a lot of cases, not just
• 33:53
  Speaker 3: heated divorce cases, but violent felonies. It's really hard when
• 33:59
  Speaker 3: you have of physical evidence that belies you claim. For instance,
• 34:05
  Speaker 3: in this case, they the five are claiming it was
• 34:08
  Speaker 3: an accident, we didn't need to kill him. But you've
• 34:12
  Speaker 3: got soot on the entry wound right behind the left ear,
• 34:17
  Speaker 3: which sounds like an execution style killing. It's not like
• 34:20
  Speaker 3: you're struggling and boom, the gun goes off. It wouldn't
• 34:23
  Speaker 3: have happened that way.
• 34:25
  Speaker 1: So as a.
• 34:25
  Speaker 3: Defense attorney, what do you do when you realize there's
• 34:29
  Speaker 3: forensic evidence that could torpedo your whole defense.
• 34:33
  Speaker 10: It's a tough one. You start pointing the finger. I mean,
• 34:35
  Speaker 10: Nancy Grace coined the phrase, sod some other dude did it.
• 34:38
  Speaker 10: Maybe I wasn't the trigger person. It's just hard because
• 34:41
  Speaker 10: you have tons of motive and a story behind this
• 34:44
  Speaker 10: whole explanation. Why would these young kids shoot an older man?
• 34:48
  Speaker 9: You know? And there's an explanation.
• 34:50
  Speaker 10: So it's really, really, really hard as a defense council
• 34:53
  Speaker 10: to do anything other than do say it was the
• 34:56
  Speaker 10: heat of the moment, things went awry. It was a burglary,
• 35:00
  Speaker 10: something went bad. The guy reacted in a different way.
• 35:03
  Speaker 10: It was confusion. These are young kids, cancer.
• 35:07
  Speaker 3: You truly the kiss of death. And this happened in
• 35:12
  Speaker 3: the Jody Arias case. So you got your client. Your
• 35:14
  Speaker 3: client's lying all right, You're trying to help your client.
• 35:17
  Speaker 3: The client's saying it was an accident. It was an accident.
• 35:19
  Speaker 3: It wasn't execution style right behind the ear. We were struggling.
• 35:24
  Speaker 3: And then once your client is up on the stand,
• 35:27
  Speaker 3: the state gets him on cross and that would be
• 35:31
  Speaker 3: the perfect moment to make the defendant come down in
• 35:35
  Speaker 3: front of the jury and act out the scenario, which
• 35:39
  Speaker 3: is wonderful for the prosecution because you get to put
• 35:41
  Speaker 3: the gun in your client's hand and act it out
• 35:48
  Speaker 3: and then question them. That's the last thing you want
• 35:51
  Speaker 3: is for your client, unless you're Oj Simpson, to get
• 35:55
  Speaker 3: up and do a demonstration in front of the jury.
• 35:58
  Speaker 3: That is fraught, fraught with problems for the defense.
• 36:02
  Speaker 9: Right, especially if you're the prosecutor. You just have a
• 36:04
  Speaker 9: field day.
• 36:05
  Speaker 10: All you need to do is really get him on
• 36:07
  Speaker 10: one credibility issue, something that they don't believe him on,
• 36:11
  Speaker 10: that he didn't have a relationship or they it wasn't
• 36:13
  Speaker 10: about as soon as you catch the defendant line, then
• 36:16
  Speaker 10: like the law, says Nancy, and you know this law
• 36:18
  Speaker 10: that if you catch them long on one thing, you
• 36:19
  Speaker 10: can assume they're long on everything else. You impeach their
• 36:22
  Speaker 10: creditibility on one fact, then it can be considered to
• 36:25
  Speaker 10: peach on everything else. It's a very very dangerous thing
• 36:27
  Speaker 10: to put your client up as a witness.
• 36:35
  Speaker 2: Crime Stores with Nancy Grace.
• 36:39
  Speaker 4: Pamela and teenager Billy Flynn meet at a volunteer event
• 36:42
  Speaker 4: and secretly begin a relationship. Then one day Pamela comes
• 36:46
  Speaker 4: home and finds her husband dead.
• 36:49
  Speaker 17: How often would you talk to him.
• 36:55
  Speaker 8: Every day? She started yelling her. She's saying, well, if
• 37:00
  Speaker 8: you're never going to do this one right now, Peo
• 37:04
  Speaker 8: got a knight that I didn't want to do too.
• 37:07
  Speaker 8: That was good, you know.
• 37:11
  Speaker 9: I went over the plan of how to kill Greg Teller.
• 37:13
  Speaker 9: A rabbit stabbed Greg Danster and President.
• 37:16
  Speaker 8: Was too loud.
• 37:17
  Speaker 10: She was attracted pologized at school for a drafted her.
• 37:23
  Speaker 8: You tolden you're saying to be around.
• 37:27
  Speaker 18: Yeah, everybody.
• 37:31
  Speaker 3: That is where our friends at Nightline, Investigation, Discovery and
• 37:34
  Speaker 3: w m u R TV. So I would say, uh
• 37:38
  Speaker 3: that that was some of the most damning evidence against
• 37:42
  Speaker 3: Pam Smart. Sydney, that was Billy Flynn, the teen lover.
• 37:47
  Speaker 1: Correct.
• 37:49
  Speaker 11: Yes, it didn't take much for Billy Flynn to admit
• 37:53
  Speaker 11: to what had happened and spill the entire truth to investigators.
• 37:58
  Speaker 11: But he knew that Pam Smart was involved in this
• 38:03
  Speaker 11: and was the starting point of all of this.
• 38:06
  Speaker 3: So not only as Sydney Summer tells us, did all
• 38:10
  Speaker 3: the teams crack like ouch, it didn't take much and
• 38:17
  Speaker 3: testify against Smart, But there is another player in the scenario,
• 38:22
  Speaker 3: possibly the single most important player, named Cecilia Pierce.
• 38:30
  Speaker 11: Pretty much they've abel used that, Yeah you've had great child.
• 38:35
  Speaker 8: Why though, like you know, I don't think they can't
• 38:38
  Speaker 8: think of any other reason why I b on them
• 38:39
  Speaker 8: would do it. Yeah, I know somebody must.
• 38:42
  Speaker 3: Be done to say, Okay, I will help You'll probably.
• 38:49
  Speaker 8: You're you're gonna have to go in.
• 38:54
  Speaker 19: There plans for the rest.
• 38:58
  Speaker 8: Of our entire life.
• 39:02
  Speaker 11: Going to Africa and gonna you're about night so I
• 39:08
  Speaker 11: don't know.
• 39:13
  Speaker 3: Wow, that is dynamite in the courtroom. That's from Nightline
• 39:17
  Speaker 3: and Investigation Discovery. So explain to me to you, Colleen Cronnin,
• 39:23
  Speaker 3: who is Cecilia Pierce.
• 39:28
  Speaker 7: Cecilia Pierce was Pameless Smartskin turned and the two of
• 39:33
  Speaker 7: them became close during the time that they were working together,
• 39:39
  Speaker 7: and Cecilia agreed to be taped to tape conversations between
• 39:45
  Speaker 7: her and Pam after the murder.
• 39:48
  Speaker 8: And that was some of what you just heard.
• 39:51
  Speaker 3: To Allison Paganelli joining us esteem forensic psychologist Alison.
• 39:58
  Speaker 1: It was argued to the jury.
• 40:01
  Speaker 3: By the defense that the other the boys, the teen killers,
• 40:06
  Speaker 3: had something to lose, They had their freedom to lose,
• 40:09
  Speaker 3: so they could blame it all on Pam Smart and
• 40:11
  Speaker 3: maybe walk free. But Cecilia Pierce was the confidant, the
• 40:17
  Speaker 3: teen girl confidant of Pam Smart. They got police got
• 40:22
  Speaker 3: Cecilia appears to wear a wire.
• 40:25
  Speaker 2: And catch Smart admitting that she was part of it.
• 40:30
  Speaker 3: And unless the teen girl played along with it, that
• 40:33
  Speaker 3: all go to quote the slammer, and there was no
• 40:37
  Speaker 3: dog in the fight.
• 40:38
  Speaker 1: For Cecilia Pierce. She wasn't charged.
• 40:41
  Speaker 3: She wasn't part of the gang going down, down, down,
• 40:45
  Speaker 3: so she had no reason to rat out Pamela Smart.
• 40:49
  Speaker 3: I think that was Smart's nail in the coffin.
• 40:53
  Speaker 15: I would agree, and I don't think that Pam Smart
• 40:56
  Speaker 15: thought for any minute that her teenage mentee or.
• 41:00
  Speaker 2: In turn, would turn on her.
• 41:04
  Speaker 15: It seems as if Pam Smart felt like she had
• 41:06
  Speaker 15: good control over these teenagers and that even when you know,
• 41:13
  Speaker 15: people were being questioned and being caught, she still felt
• 41:16
  Speaker 15: like she could confide in her teenage intern, which was
• 41:20
  Speaker 15: a big mistake, because, like you said, it was pretty
• 41:23
  Speaker 15: much the nail in the coffin for Pam.
• 41:25
  Speaker 20: I found myself responsible for something I desperately didn't want
• 41:30
  Speaker 20: to be responsible for my husband's murder. I had to
• 41:35
  Speaker 20: acknowledge for the first time in my own you know, mind,
• 41:40
  Speaker 20: in my own heart, how responsible I was, because I
• 41:44
  Speaker 20: had deflected.
• 41:46
  Speaker 12: Blame all the time.
• 41:48
  Speaker 19: You know, now that I am older and able to
• 41:51
  Speaker 19: look back on things, I can see so many errors
• 41:55
  Speaker 19: that I made, and I can see how obscwed my
• 41:59
  Speaker 19: judgment was and how immature I was. Looking backwards, you know,
• 42:04
  Speaker 19: I am such a different person than I was, and
• 42:08
  Speaker 19: more thoughtful before you know, I think things through before
• 42:11
  Speaker 19: I make decisions and less impulsive.
• 42:15
  Speaker 1: To crime stories.
• 42:15
  Speaker 3: Investigative reporter, How long did it take pam Smart to say, Okay,
• 42:20
  Speaker 3: you know I did it, because all these years she
• 42:23
  Speaker 3: said I didn't do it, they did it on their own.
• 42:26
  Speaker 1: And what are the legal.
• 42:28
  Speaker 3: Grounds she is using for this habeas corpus?
• 42:32
  Speaker 11: I tuk Pamela Smart thirty four years to admit any
• 42:38
  Speaker 11: kind of culpability for her husband's murder, but despite that,
• 42:45
  Speaker 11: she's now filed this habeas corpus petition. This is not
• 42:49
  Speaker 11: the first time she's filed one of these. This time
• 42:52
  Speaker 11: she claimed that modern science shows that if you're listening
• 42:59
  Speaker 11: to something and you're told what it says, you have
• 43:04
  Speaker 11: a bias to believe what you are told over what
• 43:08
  Speaker 11: you heard. So she's claiming that these wire recordings that
• 43:13
  Speaker 11: were such bombshells at her nineteen ninety one trial, prosecutors
• 43:19
  Speaker 11: prepared transcripts of those wire recordings and wrote what they
• 43:25
  Speaker 11: wanted them to say, not what she claimed she actually
• 43:29
  Speaker 11: said in the moment. So she believes that jury was
• 43:32
  Speaker 11: biased against her based on those jury transcripts, and she
• 43:36
  Speaker 11: deserves a new trial.
• 43:38
  Speaker 3: Transcripts of recordings are handed to jury's all the time,
• 43:43
  Speaker 3: every day in courts across our country. That is not
• 43:47
  Speaker 3: going to be a ground for a reversal. But by
• 43:51
  Speaker 3: the time this is finally her has already been one delay.
• 43:54
  Speaker 3: She may have another grounds for reversal. We wait as
• 43:57
  Speaker 3: justice unfolds. As we've remember Greg Smart and his family
• 44:03
  Speaker 3: still suffering, imagining all the things they've missed through the
• 44:07
  Speaker 3: years and anniversaries with him, children, grandchildren, a life cut short.
• 44:15
  Speaker 2: All they've got is his grave to visit.
• 44:19
  Speaker 3: We remember an American hero, Officer Thomas Adams, California Highway Patrol,
• 44:24
  Speaker 3: just twenty four, killed in the line of duty, leaving
• 44:28
  Speaker 3: behind grieving parents. American hero Officer Thomas Adams. Nancy Gray
• 44:36
  Speaker 3: signing off and goodbye friends,