Latest / Health Ethics Podcast / Asking for Aid: ICE, Advocacy, and Bioethics

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Asking for Aid: ICE, Advocacy, and Bioethics · Health Ethics Podcast

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  Speaker 1: Welcome to Health Ethics, a series of conversations with leading
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  Speaker 1: experts about ethical considerations associated with health and healthcare, both
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  Speaker 1: locally and globally. I am Brian Pilkington, Professor of Bioethics
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  Speaker 1: in the Department of Medical Sciences at the Hackensack Meridan
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  Speaker 1: School of Medicine. This series, like its predecessor, which focused
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  Speaker 1: on the COVID nineteen pandemic, relies on the idea that
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  Speaker 1: challenging ethical issues are best addressed by folks from diverse
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  Speaker 1: backgrounds practically reasoning together, and complements the Health Ethics series
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  Speaker 1: with its panel of leading experts from medicine, nursing, politics, economics, philosophy,
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  Speaker 1: and the law. Thank you and enjoy the episode Elkington,
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  Speaker 1: and in today's episode, Asking for Aid, Ice, Advocacy and Bioethics,
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  Speaker 1: I speak with Professor Art Kaplan.
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  Speaker 2: Arthur L.
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  Speaker 1: Kaplan, PhD. Is the doctors William F. And Virginia Conley MIDI,
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  Speaker 1: Professor and founding Head of the Division of Medical Ethics
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  Speaker 1: at New York University Grossman School of Medicine in New
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  Speaker 1: York City. He was previously Director of the Bioethics Programs
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  Speaker 1: at the University of Minnesota and the University of Pennsylvania.
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  Speaker 1: Professor Kaplan's areas of expertise include ethics of research, organ
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  Speaker 1: donation and transplant, reproductive technologies, genetics, health policy, and a
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  Speaker 1: wide range of other bioethics topics. Professor Kaplan is known
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  Speaker 1: across the globe as being an engaged public and proactive
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  Speaker 1: scholar art. Thanks so much for being here with me today.
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  Speaker 1: You recently led an effort.
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  Speaker 3: To alert and invite the Red Cross, the American Red Cross,
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  Speaker 3: and the International Red Cross to the US to address
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  Speaker 3: abuses of ice in detention facilities. I think most folks
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  Speaker 3: are probably familiar with this situation, but for those who aren't,
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  Speaker 3: can you describe what's going on and what led you
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  Speaker 3: to write lead this open letter effort.
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  Speaker 2: Well, the administration, as we all know, has been using
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  Speaker 2: ice and the border patrol to really crack down on
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  Speaker 2: people they say are here illegally or are criminals. And
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  Speaker 2: we've all seen scenes like in Minneapolis where they're running
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  Speaker 2: around in neighborhoods, grabbing people out of cars. They're obviously
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  Speaker 2: allegations of murder involved in some of their activities. But
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  Speaker 2: what happens is when these people are apprehended sometimes they
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  Speaker 2: go to local facilities, but often they are sent to big,
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  Speaker 2: privately run, privately owned detention centers, the biggest being in Texas,
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  Speaker 2: and just using that one as an example, there are
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  Speaker 2: hundreds and hundreds of kids in these facilities, little kids, adolescents.
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  Speaker 2: They didn't do anything, and they're being held based in
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  Speaker 2: a prison. And the complaints that you get when people
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  Speaker 2: do talk to them on the phone and so on,
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  Speaker 2: are that they have moldy food, wormy food, the lights
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  Speaker 2: never go off, they've had outbreaks, measles, their allegations of
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  Speaker 2: sexual harassment. There are definitely kids who have medical problems
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  Speaker 2: who don't really get their medicines in there. And so
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  Speaker 2: this seems to me to be a situation where we
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  Speaker 2: should all be complaining and protesting and demanding transparency. But
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  Speaker 2: it's to the point where I think the Red Cross,
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  Speaker 2: particularly International Red Cross, should do its duty and pay
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  Speaker 2: a visit to these facilities and see if the rights
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  Speaker 2: of the people in there are being protected. They have
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  Speaker 2: had that ability that by international law to make those
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  Speaker 2: visits for decades and decades. They even visited occasionally concentration
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  Speaker 2: camps in Nazi Germany, although they dressed them up when
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  Speaker 2: they came, and I don't think they really got the story.
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  Speaker 2: But be that as it may, they have the ability
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  Speaker 2: to visit, they have the ability to write a report.
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  Speaker 2: They should go.
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  Speaker 3: Have you heard back from the Red Cross? I don't
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  Speaker 3: know the processes here.
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  Speaker 2: So I wrote an open letter, hoping that I would
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  Speaker 2: reach the right folks, and I did send it to
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  Speaker 2: all the addresses I could find for the American Red Cross,
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  Speaker 2: actually Connecticut Red Cross, and the International Red Cross. No
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  Speaker 2: responses yet.
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  Speaker 3: Seem more about the role of bioethics and bioethicists and
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  Speaker 3: responding to this kind of situation.
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  Speaker 2: Well, I think there are a role for bioethicists that's
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  Speaker 2: a little unique in that that we are supposed to
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  Speaker 2: look out for people's rights in the healthcare sector. If
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  Speaker 2: you have measles outbreaks in these facilities, people are not
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  Speaker 2: being taken care of properly. I don't even know how
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  Speaker 2: they manage measles there. I know they cut off visits
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  Speaker 2: from legal people. I'm not sure who's treating measles in
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  Speaker 2: these facilities. If the food stinks, then there are to
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  Speaker 2: be dietitians in there making sure that kids forget about
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  Speaker 2: the adults. Erson just the kids again, innocent kids are
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  Speaker 2: getting properly fed. In other words, what I would say
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  Speaker 2: is this bioethics is not the sole voice. I wish
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  Speaker 2: there were more open letters from all kinds of folks
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  Speaker 2: saying rights violations appear to be taking place against vulnerable
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  Speaker 2: children and detention facilities. But bioethics has a special rule
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  Speaker 2: because a lot of these violations involve the health of
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  Speaker 2: the kids.
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  Speaker 3: Do you think bioethicis can be effective? Is that what
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  Speaker 3: I mean? What's the next move? You haven't heard back yet.
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  Speaker 3: Maybe the Red Cross visits, But can bioethesis do something here?
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  Speaker 2: Well? Again, I think bioethics in this era, if you will,
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  Speaker 2: needs to be paying attention to what's going on to
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  Speaker 2: vulnerable Americans, especially when their healthcare is in jeopardy, especially
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  Speaker 2: when they're basic rights. You know, we have an HHS
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  Speaker 2: secretary keeps rattling on about nutrition. Well, there's no nutrition
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  Speaker 2: in the camps that's adequate. Then we have a role
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  Speaker 2: to play in calling that out. That's part of bioethics too,
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  Speaker 2: not just medical care at the bedside, but making sure
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  Speaker 2: people are maintained properly with respect to food and water.
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  Speaker 2: Clean water adequate ability to sleep if the lights are
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  Speaker 2: not turned off, and so forth. So we do have
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  Speaker 2: a special role. But what I'm trying to use is
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  Speaker 2: the fact that we call ourselves ethesis. So hopefully people
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  Speaker 2: will pay attention if ethicists say something is wrong in
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  Speaker 2: a way that they might not if plumbers or aeronautical
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  Speaker 2: engineers said something is wrong. Those groups I hope might
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  Speaker 2: jump in. But I kind of started this petition to
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  Speaker 2: get the Red Cross in there with the bioethics community
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  Speaker 2: to take advantage of the leverage we have with that
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  Speaker 2: ethics moniker. It has some clout, it has some weight.
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  Speaker 2: I think one that came from religious leaders would also
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  Speaker 2: have more weight, And I'm gonna think about that as
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  Speaker 2: the next move to recruit that particular group in People
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  Speaker 2: pay attention to those voices. Not everybody agrees with them,
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  Speaker 2: but they the least feel they have to engage.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean that sounds like a prudent step forward
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  Speaker 3: to respond to something so horrific. And I mentioned this
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  Speaker 3: when I first read the letter, and since then I've
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  Speaker 3: had this James Baldwin line, one of the many great
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  Speaker 3: lines that my Dungeon shook, playing in my head, sort
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  Speaker 3: of the one that deals with the impermissibility of what's
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  Speaker 3: being done. And he's thinking about terrible civil rights violations.
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  Speaker 1: And for Baldwin, he says, quote, I know what the
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  Speaker 1: world has done to my brother, and how narrowly he
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  Speaker 1: has survived it. And I know which is much worse.
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  Speaker 1: And this is the crime of which I accuse my
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  Speaker 1: country and my countrymen, and for which neither I, or
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  Speaker 1: time nor history will ever forgive them. That they have
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  Speaker 1: destroyed and are destroying hundreds of thousands of lives and
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  Speaker 1: do not know it and do not want to know it.
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  Speaker 1: It is not permissible that the authors of devastation should
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  Speaker 1: also be innocent. It is the innocence which constitutes the crime.
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  Speaker 1: And so when we think about.
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  Speaker 3: Folks who are around who feel innocent with respect to
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  Speaker 3: the terrible things that are done, and he thinks, it's
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  Speaker 3: the innocence that constitutes the crime. And so do you
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  Speaker 3: think bioethicism? I mean, and there's something interesting between the
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  Speaker 3: connection between the role of the bioethicis and also sort
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  Speaker 3: of everyone right, and so do bioethicists have a special
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  Speaker 3: sort of advocacy role? I mean, the letter both puts
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  Speaker 3: people and their positions forward in an open place. But
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  Speaker 3: it's also a call right to get help. So I mean,
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  Speaker 3: are there where does winding its way into a question
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  Speaker 3: where does responsibility? Why is it with? You mentioned the administration.
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  Speaker 3: We've talked about bioeths, the cists, We've talked about human beings.
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  Speaker 3: We've got people who live in Texas. Maybe these are
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  Speaker 3: now neighbors. I mean, with your bioethicist hat on, then
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  Speaker 3: I'll throw some philosophy stuff at you in a minute.
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  Speaker 3: With your bioethics, where do where does the moral responsibility
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  Speaker 3: lie for these terrible things happening in our backyards?
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  Speaker 2: Well? I do think it starts with the administration. I
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  Speaker 2: think it starts with the people who are responsible for
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  Speaker 2: ice these days. It's a new leader named Poeman. That
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  Speaker 2: used to be Christy Nome, and I think she did
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  Speaker 2: not I think she should be investigated. I think these facilities,
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  Speaker 2: by the way, outsourced again to private hands. These are
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  Speaker 2: private facilities. They're not government run. That's troubling right there.
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  Speaker 2: Who's giving them oversight? I don't know, So straight to
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  Speaker 2: Department of Homeland Security, then straight to the President, who's
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  Speaker 2: supposedly monitoring and instigating these policies. There's one of his advisors,
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  Speaker 2: Steven Miller, who's a racist, bigot, and I think he
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  Speaker 2: ought to be held to account for these abuses. Again.
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  Speaker 2: I'm going to come back to the children again. They're
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  Speaker 2: abusing adults, but I think this, what did the kid do,
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  Speaker 2: who's two or six? Sitting in this facility for months,
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  Speaker 2: maybe up to a year, that's outrageous. One other comment,
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  Speaker 2: I don't think the bioethics community is doing what it
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  Speaker 2: should to speak up about human rights violations. We're a
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  Speaker 2: little bit intimidated. Many of us work at universities. The
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  Speaker 2: universities don't want to get on the wrong side of
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  Speaker 2: the administration. I noticed when I ask people to sign
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  Speaker 2: from bioethics programs, there's nobody from Texas there. And I
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  Speaker 2: don't think that's an accident. I think they don't want
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  Speaker 2: to cross either the governor or the administration. They're worried.
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  Speaker 2: So we need a little moral courage too. I mean,
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  Speaker 2: even my own institution gets hives when I start rattling
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  Speaker 2: on about let's defend diversity, equity, and inclusion, something the
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  Speaker 2: administration hates, but those seem to me to be pretty
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  Speaker 2: good values. I don't know, not bad human rights violations
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  Speaker 2: like this for prison healthcare, which is what the sphere
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  Speaker 2: is we're talking about. These are prisons basically, So you know,
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  Speaker 2: I put the letter together. You'll see me occasionally running
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  Speaker 2: up ads or trying to speak in the media about
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  Speaker 2: these things. But it's a time where you've got to
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  Speaker 2: be courageous a little bit because institutions are nervous and fearful,
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  Speaker 2: and you may not get backing support from places you'd
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  Speaker 2: assume you would, and you may even get harassment or
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  Speaker 2: worse from institutions universities, medical schools, whatever that you know
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  Speaker 2: they're going to put their interests first and try to
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  Speaker 2: hide from the administration. Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: I mean, it's a great point, and I'll get you
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  Speaker 3: out on this question, and it's a with your philosophy
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  Speaker 3: hat on. One of the critiques of these kinds of
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  Speaker 3: situations probably comes from an old book by Alistair Mackets
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  Speaker 3: are after virtue and the causes individualism, and he goes
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  Speaker 3: through the German who's ignoring what's going on after nineteen
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  Speaker 3: forty five. And you know, I wasn't around during the Holocaust,
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  Speaker 3: so I have not, you know, no responsibility or the
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  Speaker 3: white American who's not concerned about slavery because that happened
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  Speaker 3: a while ago, and these kinds of thing, and.
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  Speaker 1: What McIntire says, and this is a quotation as well.
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  Speaker 1: Such individualism is expressed by those modern Americans who deny
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  Speaker 1: any responsibility for the effects of slavery upon black Americans,
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  Speaker 1: saying I never owned any slaves. The Englishman who says
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  Speaker 1: I never did any wrong in Ireland? Why bring up
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  Speaker 1: that old history as though it has something to do
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  Speaker 1: with me? Or the young German who believes that being
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  Speaker 1: born after nineteen forty five means that what Nazis did
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  Speaker 1: to Jews had no moral relevance to his relationship to
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  Speaker 1: his Jewish contemporaries. Exhibit the same attitude that according to
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  Speaker 1: which the self is detachable from it it's social and
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  Speaker 1: historical roles and statuses.
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  Speaker 3: So he points to individualism. Do you think Americans are
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  Speaker 3: too individualistic?
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  Speaker 2: I am so old that as an undergraduate I actually
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  Speaker 2: had the opportunity to take a short course with Alistair
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  Speaker 2: McIntyre when I went to Brandis. He visited for a
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  Speaker 2: short time, so I knew him and I agree with him.
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  Speaker 2: I think that we are too I would say autonomy
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  Speaker 2: in itself not bad, but we're almost too libertarian, too individualistic.
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  Speaker 2: Our moral focus is too much on our own interest
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  Speaker 2: and not worrying too much about others. You can see
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  Speaker 2: it clearly in vaccines. People often say to me, well,
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  Speaker 2: I don't really care what happens to other people. I
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  Speaker 2: don't want to vaccinate. I worry about its safety or
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  Speaker 2: its impact on my kids, so I'm not going to
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  Speaker 2: do it. And the real reason we vaccinate is to
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  Speaker 2: protect the community, not the individual alone, but the whole community,
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  Speaker 2: particularly vulnerable people in the community. So yes, being ob
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  Speaker 2: sist with our right to choose, our right to be free,
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  Speaker 2: our right to do whatever the hell we want. I
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  Speaker 2: do think makes us turn away when kids are being abused,
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  Speaker 2: or saying it's not my problem. Uh yeah, I think
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  Speaker 2: McIntyre was on the right track.
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  Speaker 3: I was gonna throw a big what should ethicis do?
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  Speaker 3: But then I read that nice piece you and Jonathan
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  Speaker 3: Morino wrote. So I'm just gonna stick that in the
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  Speaker 3: chat and send people to that and maybe we'll follow
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  Speaker 3: up sometime and take your brain.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, get the word out on this. This is it?
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  Speaker 3: Yes, all right, I really appreciate the time, and we'll
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  Speaker 3: talk again soon.
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  Speaker 1: I have been speaking with Art Kathlin, the doctors William F.
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  Speaker 1: And Virginia Conley Middy, Professor and founding Dean of the
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  Speaker 1: Division of Medical Ethics at New York University. I am
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  Speaker 1: Brian Pilkington. Thank you for listening. Series is a production
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  Speaker 1: of the Health Ethics Lab, and I am grateful to
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  Speaker 1: colleagues in the Department of Medical Sciences, the IHS Library,
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  Speaker 1: and the Hackensack, Britians School of Medicine for making this
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  Speaker 1: collaboration possible. To learn more about our work or to
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  Speaker 1: engage with the series content, reach out to me Brian
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  Speaker 1: Pilkington at Brian dot Pilkington at hmh N dot org.