Latest / Uncomfortable Conversations with Josh Szeps / "When Whitefellas Talk With Blackfellas" with Tyson Yunkaporta

Transcript

"When Whitefellas Talk With Blackfellas" with Tyson Yunkaporta · Uncomfortable Conversations with Josh Szeps

• 0:00
  Get a humans welcome to uncomfortable conversations. The show that blows past the guardrails of what we're supposed to talk about and how polite we're supposed to be and how we're supposed to tiptoe around subjects and not say the right the wrong thing because we always want to be perceived as being on the correct side of politics and abiding by the norms of our tribe. No, no, no, no. Me no do that. Not here. Oh goodness. Was that some kind of foreign accent and be canceling
• 0:30
  before the show or even begins. Fantastic guest today though. See how I changed the subject there. That was quite adept of me. Wasn't that I just sidestepped any potential controversy. Ties and young reporter. What a guy. Incredible person to meet. And this is extremely refreshing. You know, I sometimes say uncomfortable conversations is not supposed to be a show where I have literally uncomfortable conversations and make the guest feel unwelcome. That's not my object frequently. I have very pleasant conversations on the show. But I do try to talk
• 1:00
  about subjects that might make people feel uncomfortable if they step outside their comfort zone in the ways that they talk about them. But the show is not uncomfortable between me and the guest. Well, this episode may be an exception to that. It gets a little bit actually uncomfortable because I think sometimes when we're talking about race, if we're talking about race, honestly, it has to be uncomfortable. But it's never not amicable because Tyson is a fantastic bloke and a serious thinker. Someone who's actually
• 1:29
  interested in engaging with the deepest issues, not just the superficial on the trivial ones about race, especially in Australia. He's a researcher. He's an arts critic. He's a poet. He's a traditional woodcarver. That was the most interesting thing that I didn't ask him about. He makes carvings of what he wants to say. He channels his thoughts through symbols and diagrams instead of words. And this from an academic.
• 1:56
  He yarns with people. He looks for ways to connect images and stories with place and relationship. And he tries to create a coherent world world view. It's he doesn't call sand talk, which is the Aboriginal custom of drawing images on the ground to convey knowledge. And that's the name of his book. Sand talk. How indigenous thinking can save the world.
• 2:18
  We talk a little bit about that. We talk a little bit about his new book on the way that black pilling is affecting indigenous communities. You've heard of red pilling, you know, people sort of spiraling down the rabbit hole into alt-right communities of, yeah, I suppose far right quasi fascism.
• 2:38
  This has its parallel in indigenous Australian and New Zealand communities as well, where there's a significant flirtation with conspiracy thinking and even with sort of Donald Trump make Australia great again is him.
• 2:50
  And if you're not Australian, one thing you will need to know in order to understand today's episode is acknowledgements of country and welcomes of country.
• 3:00
  You may have experienced some of this in North America, where a white person will acknowledge or recognize the traditional owners of the land. You see it occasionally in like the Pacific Northwest. It's a bit more prevalent in Canada in Australia. It's ubiquitous in the past 20 years. It's become mandatory. Essentially everywhere. Any time there is an award ceremony or a meeting convention.
• 3:24
  Even something as simple as a meeting in an office or a Zoom or a team's meeting. It's customary for whoever it is, even if there are no indigenous participants in that meeting to pay their respects to the traditional owners of the land by saying something like I acknowledge insert traditional custodians name on the lands that we are meeting on today.
• 3:43
  I pay my respects to elders past present and emerging and celebrate the diversity of Aboriginal peoples and their ongoing cultures and connections to the lands and waters of this land.
• 3:54
  You'll hear that in Australia at least daily. If you listen to the radio, then the radio station that I work for begins its broadcast every day at 615 in the morning with a recorded message of one of those that's the national broadcaster. It's very much in the cultural ethos.
• 4:11
  It's a way of doing things. You get on a flight in Australia. They say that before they even start talking about where the emergency exits are.
• 4:18
  I do it, the acknowledgement of country because one must and I do it not only because one must but because I hope that it actually achieves something.
• 4:31
  Whether it does, I don't know. Well, I do know it achieves something. It telegraphs something to someone.
• 4:40
  But whether it's a game that non-indigenous people are playing with each other in order to avoid reckoning with the actual theft of the land that they would rather not reckon with.
• 4:52
  In order to avoid dealing with the real disparities of income and wellbeing that they would rather not deal with. Maybe it's a precursor, maybe it's a necessary step on the path towards true justice, true racial justice, or maybe it's a distraction.
• 5:08
  And my conflictedness over that is something that it's very difficult to talk about in public because you risk coming off as seeming dismissive towards the overall concerns of Indigenous Australians.
• 5:21
  But Tyson is a fascinating person to talk to because he understands that conflictedness and he shares some of that conflict himself even whilst being extraordinarily and vastly more radical in his thinking than I should ever dare to be.
• 5:40
  He is a senior lecturer in Indigenous Knowledge and is the founder of the Indigenous Knowledge Systems Lab at Deakin University.
• 5:47
  He also hosts a podcast called The Other Others, in which he yarns with guests about how Indigenous knowledge can solve the world's problems.
• 5:54
  I hope you find this as exciting and enlightening as I did. Please enjoy Tyson Yonker Border.
• 6:11
  I'm an Aboriginal scholar. I guess I'm just a scholar who happens to be Aboriginal but that does kind of limit you in what you can study.
• 6:27
  You know, it's like if you're Aboriginal, you're going to be a vet. It's like, you know, for native animals, you're going to be a native animal vet.
• 6:39
  If you can do sociology, it's going to help your community. You know, you kind of get roped in.
• 6:50
  So I guess you kind of stuck with this Aboriginal scholar thing. Would you rather be studying things that weren't Indigenous?
• 6:59
  Well, I'm kind of branching out quite a bit. I don't know. I'm playing a lot with economics and I'm really interested in all the complexity in the world at the moment.
• 7:18
  Not like it's never not been complex, but you know what I mean? Yes, I'm really interested in all that and a little bit of cybernetics and bits and pieces here and there.
• 7:29
  Yeah, so governance governance is interesting. Yeah, looking middle into all those sorts of things. It's interesting having lots of fun with that.
• 7:39
  But I'm really into the conspiracy theory side of things right now. I've spent like the last three years, like taking a real deep dive into this kind of big ecosystem online of kind of radicalization.
• 7:59
  You know, and the sort of red pilling of everybody on everything. So I'm, you know, been looking quite deeply into that.
• 8:09
  And yeah, I'm really interested to talk about that too if you're into it. Yeah, definitely want to get definitely want to get to that. I mean, I'm interested in what you say about if you're an Indigenous scholar, then people assume that you're a scholar of Indigenous things.
• 8:20
  Like you're in that you must be a vet for native animals or something. Yeah, from where is the expectation coming from home?
• 8:31
  I don't know. I think you just kind of get directed into it. So so my family is what also black fellows who are making that is.
• 8:39
  It's it's kind of everything you end up in the Indigenous unit, you know, in the university. And of course, you know, without protocols, you have like you end up having connections in there.
• 8:53
  There's I mean, it's it's at every stage. So so you know, okay, so if you're doing a research project, you have to apply for ethics, right. And if there's any Indigenous, like if there's a whiff of anything Indigenous about it, it immediately automatically goes to high risk.
• 9:12
  High risk ethics application. So what does that mean? What's a high risk ethics? High risk. So you can you can put in a fast track just a quick one going. There's no no human ethics issues for this.
• 9:23
  For this research thing and you can get that passed in a couple of weeks. But if it's high risk, it can take like eight months.
• 9:30
  Might be affecting disenfranchised communities. Yeah, that's it. So it's it's it's it's about, you know, protecting Indigenous knowledge and Aboriginal communities.
• 9:42
  You know, but at the same time, it's like so you're an Indigenous researcher. So it's Indigenous research and it's automatically high risk. So you always have to go through the full, you know, academic anima of a high risk ethics application whenever you do a right.
• 9:58
  So it's almost like you're being treated with kid gloves, while other people are just allowed to get on with their work. Yeah, yeah, or rubber gloves.
• 10:05
  Yeah, it's a it's, you know, the academic equivalent of a full rectal exam. It's it's it's it's very tricky.
• 10:13
  It's interesting. It takes a long time. Although the the biggest one, I don't know, it took the best part of a year for the last thing I did to get it through ethics took forever.
• 10:25
  And I wasn't I wasn't I wasn't studying Aboriginal people. I was doing a kind of I know a cheeky reverse anthropology thing where I was studying settlers. Right.
• 10:37
  And so it went to high it went immediately to high risk because because I'm Indigenous. So therefore, I'll be using Indigenous methodologies, you know, but I wasn't studying Aboriginal people. I was studying I was studying settlers in six different colonies around the world.
• 10:58
  And that went really high. It went really high risk and took a long time. It turned out the concern was they were worried that I was going to be portraying an ethnic group in a negative light.
• 11:11
  What white settlers.
• 11:15
  Yeah, you really got to make sure. Yeah, I got I got called before the board and everything. I've never seen that happen before. It's very rare, but we had to go and
• 11:24
  and defend it like to the ethics board and everything. It was it was full on. We got it done in the end though.
• 11:30
  It's interesting. I mean, there's a parallel thing that happens in the media where there's this expectation that any time you're talking about anything to do with First Nations issues, you have to be talking with someone who's Indigenous.
• 11:40
  And anytime you're not talking about that, it's like Indigenous people get sidelined from conversations. I mean, I try to I try to be agnostic about who I'm talking to is I much rather talk to an Indigenous Australian about something that happens to be incidental because it happens to be their field of expertise.
• 11:57
  And I don't necessarily subscribe to the idea that it's impossible or that it's, you know, wildly inappropriate for white people to be talking about policy issue is that may have implications for Indigenous people or vice versa.
• 12:11
  I frequently find that people will just they'll cherry pick the Indigenous person who represents the white person's interests and then put them up as if they're like, you know, they're the spokesperson for every single Indigenous person as if all Indigenous people have the same interests and the same points of view.
• 12:25
  Yeah. And not at all.
• 12:27
  So it's interesting to hear you say that that even in academia, you've got the same phenomenon where it's like, this is Indigenous and we're going to treat it very, very carefully with this kind of tiptoeing reverence instead of just treating the Indigenous academic like an academic.
• 12:43
  Yeah. Well, I don't it sort of goes for all cultures really, you know, like I've got I've got this big Viking fetish kind of thing.
• 12:52
  I'm really into Vikings.
• 12:55
  And whatever you do in your bedroom is your business.
• 12:57
  That's it.
• 12:59
  I mean, you're behind your own closed doors and privacy of your own home.
• 13:05
  Yeah, but no, quite, but publicly, like I wrote a little bit about Vikings in the in the in that books and talk I did a few years back.
• 13:16
  I mean, like I think I was talking about that Auroboros sort of serpent, you know, eating its tail and of that being an entropic kind of dreaming, you know.
• 13:28
  And, you know, this Viking fella like contacts me out of the blue and he's quite offended.
• 13:34
  It's like, yes, you can say that it's not, you know, that it's not eating its tail.
• 13:43
  This one, it's not eating its tail. It's all you've got that completely wrong.
• 13:47
  This guy also, you know, he was contacting Tyker YTT about the latest Thor movie.
• 13:54
  Right. You know, going, you can't appropriate my culture.
• 14:00
  Anyway, we had it. I've become a great friends. That's his name's Roon Rasmussen.
• 14:05
  And yeah, we're yawning all the time now.
• 14:08
  And that's so I give my Viking fix that way.
• 14:11
  But yeah, I've just finished the manuscript from the next book and that's got like,
• 14:15
  that's got one chapter of Viking stuff like I put it all in there.
• 14:19
  What is it about Vikings at interest here?
• 14:24
  It's just, it's just that wishful film.
• 14:28
  You know, like this kind of being this sort of, I don't know,
• 14:36
  because you know, I was born in the 70s and you kind of grow up with that sort of male,
• 14:42
  you know, what's kind of barbarian. You know, you're on this hero's journey.
• 14:47
  Like, you know, we all watch the movies.
• 14:52
  It's something about just that, it's very attractive that narrative of rugged individualism.
• 14:59
  And there's nothing that says that more than the Viking lore.
• 15:03
  And, you know, in a lot of ways it's quite damaging and terrible, but it's really attractive.
• 15:09
  Like the worst ideas in the world are really successful right now because they are so satisfying.
• 15:16
  Yeah.
• 15:17
  It's more satisfying than the sort of mundane stuff we need to get on with, you know,
• 15:21
  to actually make the world not die.
• 15:25
  Because there's a lot of heavy lifting and it's really boring and it's not very exciting.
• 15:29
  It's just depressing.
• 15:31
  But, you know, all this like extreme libertarian or extreme right libertarian stuff is incredibly attractive.
• 15:40
  You know, I've spent a lot of time with those communities online.
• 15:44
  Like, you know, studying them, but at the same time getting a little bit red pearl myself.
• 15:50
  You know, how did that go?
• 15:52
  You can see it in, you can see it in in Santork.
• 15:55
  Like, you know, there's a bit of chemtrails stuff in there. There's a bit of
• 16:01
  Gaddafi nostalgia like inhaled directly from Russian propaganda on YouTube.
• 16:07
  You know, it's very insidious.
• 16:10
  You know, that and all the attendant things that come with that, like these sort of guru discourses.
• 16:19
  If you're in that space talking up all that stuff that, you know,
• 16:23
  it's very cultish, cultish kind of mechanisms that come into play.
• 16:29
  And there are parallel between your love of Vikings and what's going on online.
• 16:33
  Like this vision of masculine of this kind of rugged out of control, masculinity, which is exciting.
• 16:39
  And the heroism and everything is that.
• 16:42
  Is there a mirror of that in the alt-right?
• 16:45
  Absolutely. That's what it's built on.
• 16:49
  But there's, you know, and there's an antiquity to that.
• 16:53
  There's a, you know, it's very, very structural.
• 16:58
  And it's a, you know, and I guess we can talk about the fascist term and all that kind of thing.
• 17:06
  And how all that works and, you know, what are the kind of mechanisms and memes that sort of generate all these things.
• 17:15
  Yeah, but it's the cult, it's the cult structures.
• 17:19
  It's the cult infrastructure and those patterns of how you, how you radicalize somebody, how you brainwash somebody.
• 17:29
  And you see it in that book, I was doing it.
• 17:32
  Like, and I didn't know I was doing it until, until, like, you know, a couple of years later,
• 17:38
  I had to read it out aloud that bloody book and in, you know, twice, you know, to do recordings.
• 17:46
  Yeah, for Amazon and for Audible.
• 17:49
  Yeah, you know, I had to do it twice like that.
• 17:51
  So I'll read back through and I was like, oh, my God.
• 17:54
  That's, you know, I'm like, you know, so I'm like, I'm like, love bombing you and establishing this real intimacy.
• 18:02
  And they're just suddenly snatching it away and slapping you.
• 18:05
  Like, oh, you don't know what you're doing.
• 18:07
  And then I'm like, off you this little heuristic, like here, here, here's five things you can do to save the frickin' well.
• 18:14
  And then, so you're like grabbing this, like a, like a, like a life photo or something.
• 18:20
  And then I'm, and then I'm like, all nice and intimate with you again.
• 18:25
  I'm like, oh man, that's some guru pattern stuff.
• 18:27
  That's some, that's some cult, cult-like behavior there.
• 18:30
  I was deploying those discourses.
• 18:32
  I didn't even know it.
• 18:34
  So what, what is it then? I mean, you, because you, I know you studied Marty attraction to, to conspiracy thinking as well with the New Zealand collaborator.
• 18:43
  What, what is it, I mean, is this, is there a, is there, is this different in indigenous Australian and Marty communities than it is in the, in the white,
• 18:51
  because we normally think of this as being a white young dude bro phenomenon where they get red-pilled by watching too many YouTube videos
• 18:59
  and start thinking about conspiracy theories and contrails and all the things that you're talking about.
• 19:03
  Yeah.
• 19:04
  Alex Jones and whatnot.
• 19:06
  But you're saying this is, there's a, there's a unique prevalence of this among indigenous Aussies and Marty in New Zealand too.
• 19:12
  Yeah. Yeah, well, check it out. There's a, there's a faster, like evolutionary cycle that's going on there for, for like,
• 19:20
  how quickly you can get red-pilled. I mean, because, because we're, we've been subjected, you know, over our recent history to, to actual conspiracies.
• 19:32
  You know what I mean? Like, you know, the indigenous community, we're just, you know, there are actual conspiracies.
• 19:40
  There've been actual, you know, people taking the kids and still happening now, you know, lots of child abuse and stuff and a lot of different programs and, you know, churches and things like that.
• 19:54
  And, you know, officers that, you know, and the fact that we have more kids being taken now than at the height of the stolen generations.
• 20:03
  What do you mean by child protective services?
• 20:05
  Yeah. Yeah. There's, there's more, there's more children removed from families now than at the height of the stolen generations.
• 20:12
  It's some, you know, there are, and just for people who don't know the stolen generations, if they're outside of Australia,
• 20:18
  this is a systematic policy by the Australian government in the middle of the 20th century, I guess.
• 20:23
  Well, from early, early to mid 20th century, to remove indigenous children from their families and the idea that they would be better raised if they were raised by loving white families
• 20:32
  when Western culture and not contaminated by these backward ideas that their indigenous parents might give them.
• 20:39
  But surely that's a distinctive thing from colorblind policy of trying to take disadvantaged children away from homes that are violent towards them.
• 20:49
  Yeah, I mean, it's never colorblind. I know, like, it's because at each stage of the bureaucratic process of processing children,
• 20:58
  it's sort of, you know, your chances of going, because there's a fork at each step in the bureaucratic process there of yes or no,
• 21:07
  whether you're, whether you're removed or whether it's escalated or whether it's rated as a high risk or a low risk kind of thing.
• 21:14
  And, you know, so you end up, you know, at the first level, your twice is likely and next level, your twice is likely next level, your six times more likely, you know what I mean.
• 21:23
  So the stage of the process is that it's just kind of structural. It's not someone.
• 21:28
  It's not like a some white devil sitting there rubbing his hands together going.
• 21:33
  Yeah, I mean, I always think it's important in these conversations in order to bring along as many listeners as possible without them raising their eyebrows and going hang on.
• 21:41
  That sounds a bit fishy to clarify exactly what we're talking about.
• 21:44
  Yeah, we live in a, you know, country where indigenous Australians are wildly more disadvantaged than white Australians.
• 21:51
  They live shorter lives. They have higher rates of diseases like diabetes. They're massively over incarcerated.
• 21:56
  And some of that's going to be from structural racism and some of that's going to be from the legacy of the past couple of hundred years.
• 22:03
  Yeah.
• 22:04
  So, you know, if you were just for all of the, all of those latter factors and you simply, you know, it might be twice as likely that at one fork in the road and indigenous child is going to get taken away,
• 22:15
  but is that after adjusting for all of the environmental circumstances that that child finds themselves in?
• 22:20
  Because we know that there's going to be underlying, you know, a much larger problem.
• 22:24
  It is a thing. It's only this advantage.
• 22:26
  There's so much complexity there, you know, because there's so, so many socioeconomic factors, you know, all going on at once.
• 22:34
  And, you know, there's, there is such a horrendous history, you know, of conspiracy, which, you know, like right from the start of people conspiring in a little room on the other side of the, on the other side of the planet, you know,
• 22:51
  just set all this content in a little room to decide what, how this place is going to be, you know, categorized and classified.
• 22:58
  And, and then, you know, what are laws and different things are going to be deployed in order to take the country, what lies are going to be told?
• 23:06
  The tyrannullious thing and all these different things.
• 23:09
  Yeah, that was like declaration that this isn't an uninhabited country because they look at all these criteria about what constitutes a habitation like it.
• 23:18
  They have to be houses and they have to be roads and they have to be farming in this certain way that we understand.
• 23:23
  So they go, they're basically fauna, we can call it uninhabited.
• 23:28
  Yeah, and then this like it just continues like we go, ah, you know, native title, you know, we're talking about land rights, you know, right up until the end of the 80s and even into the 90s.
• 23:41
  And then that moved into native title and then it's, you know, 10 point plan, bucket loads of extinguishment of native title, all that sort of thing, you know, it's just always been this disingenuous thing going on.
• 23:56
  The nor the territory intervention, you know, intervention into Aboriginal communities, which is, you know, sending the military in there to save the children because they were all these, which turned out to be like just complete lies later.
• 24:10
  You know, this talk about pedophilings and stuff and, and so, you know, they really whipped up a moral panic.
• 24:19
  You know, it always seems to be about children and child molestation, which, you know, you see that so much in the United States at the moment, this idea that, you know, a liberal elite is like stealing everybody's children and then abusing them and drinking their blood and all this weird stuff.
• 24:37
  Yeah, there was kind of like a big media frenzy, you know, in Australia for a couple of years and the build up to the another territory intervention.
• 24:46
  You know, about all that stuff and then they went in to protect the children and so the first thing they did to protect the children was force people to sign over their land.
• 24:56
  Under native title, sign it over for 1990 year leases and all this sort of thing, you know, it's just, it's been really disingenuous.
• 25:04
  Look, we could, we could do the whole show just on that.
• 25:07
  Well, let's, let's just boring us hell, but basically the premise here is that, you know, we have gone through, you know, a lot of different portrayals, you know, from the, from this, this colony, you know, over time.
• 25:21
  And, you know, it's the same in New Zealand.
• 25:24
  You know, an actual conspiracies to remove children to, you know, to assimilate people under like, you know, really quite openly eugenicist kind of frames, you know, back in the day, not that long ago.
• 25:39
  So the whole thing is that, you know, these are actually happened, but then there's denial about it all the time.
• 25:50
  We kind of, you know, feel gaslit, you know, and, you know, we feel this, this sense that the world is against us, you know, and et cetera, et cetera.
• 26:02
  And that there are evil forces that we can't quite put our finger on like, where are they, where are these decisions being made.
• 26:08
  So, you know, if we go onto a YouTube video that says Hillary Clinton is eating Haitian kids, then, you know, we don't need to see 400 videos of that before we get Red Pill.
• 26:19
  It's just the first one you see, you're like, yeah, that's probably true for us, you know.
• 26:25
  So, you can get radicalized really fast.
• 26:29
  Next minute, you know, you've got elders putting up, but YouTube videos for anti-vax stuff and talking about like, you know, how they're the government's making, you know, death camps and somehow fouchies come over here.
• 26:45
  You know, I am making concentration camps for anybody who won't get vaccinated concentration camps in Howard Springs argument, everyone else in the States.
• 26:54
  I don't want to, but Tyson, let me just pause because I don't want to let things drop by that people.
• 26:59
  I want to, you know, me to be on the same page about as much as, you know, and I'm not going to play the game that is sometimes played by white people of sort of, you know,
• 27:09
  thinking less of thinking less of you and feeling like I have to pander and tiptoe around the things that you say as some people, you know, I always say I respect, I respect you too much to respect ideas that might be questionable.
• 27:23
  So, I'll just question those and respect and give you the respect that you would you rather than pretending that I don't have have questions.
• 27:30
  And on something like the intervention, I mean, I'll completely grant all of the betrayals that Europeans have forced it on First Nations Australians and the calamity of the invasion and all of the subsequent policies like the white Australia policy and like in the stolen generation.
• 27:49
  A lot of white people will be thinking about the Northern Territory intervention and and feeling a sense that when there were problems in indigenous communities in Australia, there's a tendency among white fellows to throw money at the problem, but not really want to deal with it and not really want to address it and to to wash our hands of it.
• 28:12
  And out of sight out of mind and I think they came a tipping point at which people, which there was as I understand it, actual debate in among indigenous Australians as well about whether or not there should be a more proactive role in making sure that families that were dysfunctional in indigenous communities were held accountable and that children were supported.
• 28:31
  I completely take a point that whatever mythology there was around there being some vast epidemic of pedophilia in indigenous communities, I actually don't remember hearing that but I'm sure that existed in right wing circles.
• 28:42
  But I do remember hearing an argument even from indigenous Australians that something more needed to be done and that the reason why we weren't doing it was because we were all afraid of being accused of being racist and paternalistic and that at some point we had to bite the bullet and do something and basically give the care to indigenous kids that we would give to white kids.
• 29:00
  If we weren't so frightened of being called paternalistic white racists for doing so, is that?
• 29:08
  Yeah, I guess, but I mean at the same time there were a whole heap of, you know, there are a whole good recommendations in all the commissions and everything, the little children, a sacred report and all these kinds of things that were never followed at the same time.
• 29:25
  But the intervention ends up just being a military intervention and it seems to be more about acquiring land for mineral extraction.
• 29:35
  You know, it's a bit of a question mark, you know, over all that.
• 29:40
  There are all these public debates, there are all these really reasonable things to say but then there's how it comes out on the ground.
• 29:50
  So I mean, you know, there's very little internal economies, you know, in our remote communities particularly, you know, people struggle a lot.
• 30:02
  The price of food is just is just exorbitant and it is very difficult to feed your family and there's a lot of despair.
• 30:10
  And we don't have capital because I mean right right up until my parents' generation, you know, the stolen wages was a thing.
• 30:21
  You know, my dad Kenlock, you know, from Western Cape York there, he worked his whole life and didn't receive any of that money that was held in trust.
• 30:35
  So this happened for many, many decades in Queensland and you know all around Australia but in Queensland it was particularly terrible.
• 30:46
  You know, the idea was if Aboriginal people had money that they would misuse it, you know, so you just give them like 10% of their wages just enough for basic rations.
• 30:58
  And the rest of it would be held in trust for one day when, you know, when they'd be, they'd be growing up enough to be able to handle having money.
• 31:08
  But what happened to the money in the trust?
• 31:10
  What happened to the money? Well, all the infrastructure that you see, like all the roads, you know, highways, bridges, all that was used to build the infrastructure in Queensland.
• 31:24
  And so that money was never returned.
• 31:28
  Your dad did get paid $4,000 eventually of that back. That didn't last very long.
• 31:36
  So we don't inherit capital. You know, my generation is inheriting no capital.
• 31:41
  You know, we do have an emergent kind of middle class now.
• 31:46
  But you know, it's starting right on the back foot at a time of, you know, global economic contraction that, you know, doesn't really
• 31:55
  bowed well for any of us actually owning a house or anything like that.
• 32:00
  This also reminds me of the growing and the questions around inequality and our refusal in this country and other Western countries to have an honest conversation about class and about equality.
• 32:13
  And at the moment, we on the left seem, I don't include you in this necessarily, but I include my white peers seem quite obsessed with, with minority identification, with making sure that we're saying the right things about traditionally disenfranchised groups, Indigenous Australians or LGBTQI plus people or trans people or, you know, all the window dressing.
• 32:38
  Yeah, sort of. And look, I don't mean to say that it's all window dressing, but I do mean to say that the left had historically been concerned about justice in a more in a broader, more broadly conceived way of thinking about it about the justice of the poor people having opportunity about justice of, as you say, people having not having their wages taken away from them and being essentially effectively enslaved about the ability of all people to get up onto the economic ladder and to start building capital that they can pass down to their kids.
• 33:07
  And whether you're a black fellow or a white fellow, if your parents support, you have basically no ability to hope for buying a home in Australia at the moment.
• 33:17
  Yeah, you've just been completely left behind. And I wonder how you see race and class intersecting there.
• 33:25
  Well, it's really tricky. You know, we've spent the last few decades in Indigenous thinking, you know, public thought and the academy.
• 33:43
  As with most minorities, you know, so I mean, if you're LGBTQI plus then you are, you know, if you're a scholarly, then you're doing queer theory, you're grounding your scholarship and queer theory.
• 34:00
  If you're Indigenous, you're grounding an Indigenous standpoint theory, Indigenous methodologies, this kind of thing, but above all, in post-colonial theory.
• 34:09
  Now, all of this is coming out of that post-modernism, post-structuralism, which kind of directs you to changing discourse.
• 34:21
  You know, like where you change things is like there's that idea that, you know, nothing exists outside of the text. So if you change the text, then you change the reality.
• 34:31
  You know, if you center native voices, then you know what I mean, then things change.
• 34:38
  If you have, you know, Indigenous representation on your board, then that's making change. So a lot of its window dressing, because most of this is just identitarian politics and this idea that, you know, if you have inclusion representation, if people change their language, that then somehow everything will change.
• 35:03
  Like as though all of the problems in the society are just formed from an aggregate of, you know, bad politics and bad opinions that your uncle bloody expresses after the third beer on Australia day.
• 35:21
  That's what I mean. Like somehow that's what it is. It's like, well, the racists.
• 35:26
  And then, but then that's expanded out to everybody now. And there's this idea that like, you know, if you're a settler or if you're what people calling white, that somehow you are completely flawed and that you're hopelessly flawed and that you are racist, you know, in your like DNA somehow.
• 35:45
  And that this is irritable and that somehow, you know, you can't know, you can't understand. And I don't know that you have to sort of be punished forever or something.
• 35:57
  There's all that aspect of things, you know, everything just sort of got a bit weird. But when we spend all that time doing the post-colonial anti-colonial side, and especially the post structural, then we missed the structure.
• 36:10
  We kind of rejected structuralism. So then suddenly we're unable to see the actual systems and the structures of the systems that needed to be changed.
• 36:19
  You know, I mean, basically Australia has just de facto bloody first world status just out of extraction.
• 36:29
  You know, like being, you know, the lucky country and it's basically Australia just gets to ramp into extraction on Aboriginal land and our communities must be displaced in order for that to occur.
• 36:43
  You know, you have a growth-based economic system whereby, you know, growth can't occur.
• 36:50
  You have to have growth every year. If it's not growing, then it's in recession. You know, if it's going backwards, then it's a deepression and everything's ruined.
• 37:01
  You know, so in a growth-based economic system demand must exceed supply.
• 37:07
  So there has to be, you know, less to go around. There has to be these artificial scarcity is created.
• 37:13
  You know, you have all these sort of self-terminating algorithms in the system that demand inequality.
• 37:19
  You have a system of real estate and zoning laws that are mapped over the land.
• 37:25
  We're by the land is divided into all these blocks and units of value.
• 37:29
  There's gentrification that goes on, you know, you zone these people to over here and these people to over here.
• 37:37
  And, you know, the inequality is quite structural in that sense. It's topographical.
• 37:44
  You know, there is a structure to inequality.
• 37:50
  You know, inequality is structural. And when we say structural, that doesn't mean you've got a few racists in, you know, this institution or that institution is just a few bad apples or a toxic culture there or whatever.
• 38:03
  It doesn't, it's not about the attitudes and we keep thinking if we're going to change, we could change the attitude will change the whole system.
• 38:12
  But like as though this system is based, it's so democratic that it's based on everybody's attitudes, good or bad.
• 38:23
  And that's just not the reality. You know, we're all just doing the best we can to survive in a system that's quite extractive and demands a lot from us.
• 38:36
  I mean, I have a lot of sympathy for those criticisms of contemporary capitalism and the conversations that we're not having about inequality.
• 38:44
  The structural argument is one that people find it hard to get their heads around because I don't know if you remember during the Black Lives Matter protests in the US in 2020.
• 38:55
  There were a lot of, like there were a lot of viral videos, for example, there was one where there was this young white girl who was screaming profanities out of black cop who was trying to prevent the mob from coming coming through the crowd from coming through.
• 39:10
  And she, she was accusing him of being racist and like his buddies were trying to stand up for him and say that he wasn't racist.
• 39:17
  And she's like not personally racist, structurally racist, you're structurally racist because you're part of a structural system that's keeping people of color down.
• 39:25
  Now she's not a person of color. He is a person.
• 39:27
  Yeah.
• 39:28
  You know, they're not talking about structural, but they say structural, but that's they don't understand what a structure is.
• 39:36
  What is it?
• 39:38
  It is. It's just what what I was describing before it's it's just the, you know, any tire system and it comes back to the end.
• 39:46
  A entire system of zoning and, you know, where you put people, how they move around. I'll give you an example.
• 39:53
  So they kept failing with the, they were doing covert, like predictive modeling for the spread of COVID in the US.
• 40:02
  And, and the predictive tech wasn't working.
• 40:07
  You know, they, they'd model it in these, you know, big computers and it wouldn't work.
• 40:12
  You know, it was like it kept going the other way and it kept failing until they factored in structural racism.
• 40:19
  So they actually changed the algorithm and, and put in the, the structural racism. So I'm talking about, you know, how different post codes are.
• 40:31
  You know, structurally have different levels of access. How people are crowded in, you know, to, to certain places or denied access to this side of the town.
• 40:42
  You know, so like you, the buses from the black neighborhood are deliberately make sure that the, the underpass that they go through is too low for that bus to get through so they can't get over that side of town.
• 40:56
  So, et cetera, et cetera. So, you know, when they, when they factored in all the structural racism, then the covert modeling became accurate.
• 41:05
  But what it, it is, it is really structural.
• 41:09
  So the way, the way people are policed in certain communities, where people are directed to go and not go.
• 41:17
  The, like the population density in certain areas, where people are kind of packed into those are, you know, more, you know, poor zip codes, et cetera.
• 41:29
  So mostly about about inequality and poverty here. I mean, the, the thing about not allowing a bus, you know, building buses to tall to get under the bridge to go to the nice side of town is would clearly be structural racism.
• 41:40
  But the other, that was about that was back in the day when that's where they're more closely packed together because they're poor.
• 41:47
  Yeah, is a consequence of poverty. And if there are more black people who are, who are poor as a proportion of their population than white people, is that racism?
• 41:56
  I mean, it may stem from racism. You know, what make most and from a legacy of racism.
• 42:00
  But I think we get, we get caught up and we get tight tangled up and start talking past each other when we're talking about.
• 42:06
  Okay, so they adjusted the algorithm for structural racism. But if we're including in that definition of structural racism, the fact that hospitals are more poorly resourced in poor areas, for example, or that schools were worse in poor areas or that poor people have to live in larger households than rich people get to because they can't afford such large homes.
• 42:24
  Then we're extending the definition of structural racism to encompass basically everything that's wrong with inequality.
• 42:30
  It's exactly, it's probably more useful to look at things in terms of structural inequality.
• 42:36
  And to bear in mind that a growth based economic system demands inequality and it can only function within equality because you need to have growing numbers of people every year who are missing out.
• 42:49
  You need to be missing out on goods and services in order for those, in order for any goods or services to be able to even be priced, you know, people need to be missing out and you need more and more people missing out because the pricing mechanism is on what?
• 43:06
  Well, the pricing, pricing mechanisms based on limitability and excludability.
• 43:11
  So it's about whether you can limit a product that there's high demand for and whom you can exclude and how you can exclude those people from access to this thing.
• 43:22
  Right. That's how price is determined.
• 43:24
  That is a structural, that's an example of a structural inequality.
• 43:28
  At each point here, Tyson, so I can clarify, there isn't part of the pernicious thing that modern capitalism does is that it stokes a demand that people didn't even previously know existed or that they didn't previously had have.
• 43:42
  Like the material well-being of poor people in 2022 in the West is higher than the material well-being of poor people in the West in 1992, which was higher than 1952.
• 43:54
  We're not creating greater deprivation of actual goods.
• 43:57
  We're creating greater deprivation of what people's aspirations are and then their aspirations keep notching upwards, which means that they are constantly feeling like they're on a treadmill, this hadonic kind of rat race where they have to get ahead.
• 44:09
  You know, even poor people now in this country might have a television set, perhaps even two, perhaps a car, that's something that couldn't be said a generation ago.
• 44:17
  But now that's not enough because capitalism and advertising and marketing and keeping up with the Joneses finds a way to make us not just want a television set, but now we have to have a virtual reality to headset or we have to have a tablet or we have to have a Kindle or whatever it is.
• 44:31
  Isn't that what the game is where the growth most most people can't access those things.
• 44:37
  Most people know that's right.
• 44:39
  That's a real minority in the world.
• 44:42
  You have to have that stuff.
• 44:44
  Yeah.
• 44:45
  Most households do have a TV.
• 44:47
  Yeah.
• 44:48
  And they didn't in the 50s.
• 44:51
  Well, I mean, the other thing is it comes back to this zoning thing.
• 44:57
  It costs a lot more money to live in a place where you have access.
• 45:04
  For example, where you're not living in a food desert.
• 45:07
  Yeah.
• 45:08
  You know, so a lot of our community, you know, if we're in urban environments, the only place that we can afford to rent, like the places where we have to go, these exist in food deserts.
• 45:24
  Where you have to travel for 45 minutes on a bus to get to the supermarket, you know, and this makes shopping really tricky.
• 45:32
  There's plenty of McDonald's and KFCs around, you know, in those places.
• 45:36
  And in the end, it's usually cheaper to do something like that.
• 45:41
  Yeah.
• 45:42
  But it's just not.
• 45:43
  It's not.
• 45:44
  It's not.
• 45:45
  It's just not the truth that that, you know, material well being is.
• 45:49
  I mean, I really question the metrics that are being used to decide that, you know, material well being is better now than it was before.
• 45:57
  You'd probably like that.
• 45:59
  Is it Stephen?
• 46:00
  That Pinker.
• 46:01
  Yeah.
• 46:02
  Yeah.
• 46:03
  He's a guru at the moment in that kind of, you know, sense making space that that sort of heterodox thinking.
• 46:10
  You know, Sam.
• 46:11
  Yeah.
• 46:12
  Sam Harris kind of just calm down and look at the facts.
• 46:15
  Yeah.
• 46:16
  He looks at the metrics that he assumes we would all agree with like infant mortality, life expectancy, the number of women who die in childbirth, you know, those kinds of things.
• 46:27
  And then also adds to them things like the rate of violent crime, the rate of homicide, the rate of hate crimes and concludes that in general, these things are declining and material well being is going out.
• 46:40
  They have more money.
• 46:41
  They have more stuff like we can certainly have a philosophical question about argument or discussion about whether or not having stuff makes people happy.
• 46:49
  Clearly the jury is out on that.
• 46:51
  But people do have more shit in their lives than they did in previous generations.
• 46:56
  Yeah.
• 46:57
  That sense there.
• 46:58
  You're also required to like you're required to have more shit in your life in terms of the cultural expectation or in terms of.
• 47:03
  Well, I mean, I got I got my first mobile phone in 2016.
• 47:08
  I didn't want to have to have a mobile phone.
• 47:11
  I was here.
• 47:12
  I'd love to.
• 47:13
  I didn't want to ever have a mobile phone because I was saw what was happening to everybody else around me with this bloody thing and I just didn't want to do it.
• 47:22
  And so I didn't, you know, for so long.
• 47:24
  And in the end, I had to because I had to have it if I wanted to work in the academy, you've got to have my mobile phone.
• 47:30
  I can't log on to my computer without having it without using the app on my phone, the verification thing.
• 47:38
  I can't.
• 47:39
  I can't park my car here since I moved to this city, you know, et cetera, et cetera.
• 47:45
  So basically you can't live, you know, in a city unless you have, you know, a phone and you have to have a decent phone too.
• 47:51
  I later found out.
• 47:52
  So and that's quite a lot of money.
• 47:55
  You know, and then if you want to work, you know, in the information economy at all, you know, you want to have a laptop as well.
• 48:03
  You know, if you can, I want to study or anything like that, these things, you know, have obsolescence built in.
• 48:10
  You have to be continually upgrading and replacing them.
• 48:13
  You know, it, it may well be that, you know, you could measure, you know, how much people are spanning on these things and go, oh, look, there's an increase in material wellbeing.
• 48:23
  It's like, well, no.
• 48:25
  This is also an increase in peanut allergies.
• 48:28
  African.
• 48:30
  It has an increase in autism, like, like, autism's gone through the frickin' roof.
• 48:34
  Everything's gone through the roof.
• 48:36
  And there's constantly this, this myth of progress going on at somehow.
• 48:40
  And this, this has been from the first civilization, like, like ancient Samaria, you know, between the Tigris and the Euphrates with the first little civilizations,
• 48:50
  poked a little turtle head out, you know, it's been the same frickin' thing.
• 48:54
  The same, same playbook, you tell a shitty story about the past.
• 48:59
  You go, oh, yeah, the past was terrible.
• 49:02
  You know, it was really bad yesterday.
• 49:05
  I know it's really bad today, and it's really hard, you know, having to burn your life to slave and labor away in this city, you know, in order to build this place.
• 49:15
  But, you know what? It's getting better.
• 49:17
  It's better today than it was before.
• 49:19
  You know, you think you're suffering now. Oh, my God.
• 49:21
  What about when you would run around naked on the tundra, like, shiver in a way?
• 49:26
  That was terrible.
• 49:27
  Oh, it was just all people just rapin' to murder in each other.
• 49:30
  Back in the old days, you know, there was no rule of law.
• 49:33
  Everything was terrible.
• 49:34
  You know, so we have this myth of primitivism there emerging.
• 49:38
  And today is better.
• 49:39
  So you control the past, present, and the future.
• 49:42
  You control the future through contracts.
• 49:45
  And see, then, in those early civilizations, that was the reason for big monotheistic religions arising.
• 49:53
  That's how you can enforce contracts beyond the sphere of trust, lonely.
• 49:59
  There was a common force there.
• 50:01
  Well, people, yeah, there's this idea that there's this all powerful omniscient, omnipotent being.
• 50:07
  That if you swore an oath to honor this contract, which you had to sign,
• 50:13
  that then somehow, you know, if you broke that contract, then you'd be punished by this deity.
• 50:19
  And that's kind of how those big religions came out.
• 50:22
  Now, out of the big religions, you know, that has this seed in it.
• 50:28
  And as this seed, that's kind of, is kind of the original seed of narcissism.
• 50:38
  This horrendous, like little self-terminating algorithm that's gone right from the start of things and coming through till today.
• 50:48
  You know, it's got that idea in those big religions that, you know, we are an in-group.
• 50:55
  You know, and you're lucky to belong to this in-group.
• 50:58
  You know, we are the good people and the righteous people.
• 51:01
  Those people over there, they are not.
• 51:04
  Those people are evil.
• 51:06
  So there's this idea that, you know, people begin defining themselves, you know, in relation to some other.
• 51:14
  That is wrong, bad, evil, wicked.
• 51:17
  And so you define yourself in terms of, you know, so what are we?
• 51:21
  Well, we're not them.
• 51:23
  What do we believe at the opposite of what they believe?
• 51:25
  You know, so you get these oppositional frames coming up.
• 51:30
  And then, you know, it's not far from there.
• 51:32
  You start to see it in every religion, this idea that those people will be punished.
• 51:38
  You know, those wicked outsiders, they will be punished.
• 51:41
  They're wrong and they're going to suffer for it.
• 51:46
  And then more and more this idea that we are the righteous agents of their punishment.
• 51:52
  And that, you know, we will be delivering God's wrath unto them.
• 51:56
  You know, so this is just rolled out over and over again.
• 52:01
  And then it's only a short leap then to the fascist turn.
• 52:04
  And that fascist turn is just this slight difference.
• 52:08
  You know, the fascist turn is when you start that dominant group,
• 52:13
  that dominant inside a group, starts to portray itself as the victim of these marginalized others.
• 52:20
  Or those marginalized others are actually really privileged.
• 52:24
  You know, they're actually really evil and they have a plan.
• 52:27
  And they're going to be going to replace us.
• 52:30
  You know, you see that now with a great replacement theory.
• 52:34
  All that kind of thing.
• 52:35
  I mean, you see, they're going to replace us.
• 52:38
  And we, in fact, you know, at the center of power here, we are the oppressed.
• 52:42
  Yeah, minority, even though we're the majority.
• 52:45
  You know, it's common our right groups all over that fascist turn.
• 52:50
  And that's what's pretty much driving most of the disinformation on the planet right now.
• 52:55
  It's to close the button on I love your point about like ancient Samaria.
• 52:59
  And you know, everyone always always, you know, shooting on the past in as a way of encouraging people to put up with with the flaws of the present.
• 53:08
  Yeah, just I don't want to be misunderstood when I was talking about Stephen Pinker and progress.
• 53:13
  I was very careful to say we can have a discussion about whether or not material progress actually makes people happy.
• 53:19
  Because you said that civilizations are always saying, oh, there was so much suffering in the past and things are going to be better in the future.
• 53:25
  Suffering in the past is not what I said.
• 53:27
  Probably in the past is what I said.
• 53:29
  Yeah, yeah.
• 53:30
  So I'm probably about purely material well-being.
• 53:32
  No, no, but when you look at the pinker and hang on just let me finish.
• 53:35
  Maybe the case that living in a more traditional tribal society where there's more material poverty, but greater community makes people happier and there's less suffering there.
• 53:45
  But the pinker claim is a claim that there was less material well-being and higher rates of, you know, things that we regard we currently regard as being bad like infant mortality and people dying early and so on and so forth.
• 53:56
  Oh, cannibalism, cannibalism and sodomy and all those kinds of things.
• 54:02
  Basically, all the checklist of whether or not you could you could enslave somebody.
• 54:07
  You could leave legally enslaved people if you could show that they were morally.
• 54:11
  We have to be careful about whether or not we're throwing under the bus people who are purely looking at data by lumping them in with people who are being hysterical and racist about tribal societies.
• 54:24
  But on the point of in group and our group, I mean it's so fascinating what you say about religion and creating these oppositional frames and say we are the good guys.
• 54:34
  And then that fascist turn of being like now the people in power are actually classifying themselves and regarding themselves as the victims.
• 54:42
  Because part of what you say applies to the far right and to this kind of sense of white grievance against, you know, the great replacement theory as you say or like, you know, we're having our traditions taken away.
• 54:57
  I would also just note that most of the white chauvinists, most of the western chauvinists or the white supremacists don't look back on the past as being a time of suffering and poverty.
• 55:08
  We're the ones who look back on the past and say, we have to make America great again, right?
• 55:12
  Most of them of the ones who are saying actually things were better in the past and we have to go back to the past.
• 55:16
  And frequently it's the people on the more progressive side who are saying that the past was terrible.
• 55:23
  But that's a mythology that has antiquity to it as well.
• 55:29
  That goes back a couple hundred years.
• 55:33
  The religious kind of sensibility of putting ourselves on a pedestal applies both to the far right.
• 55:38
  But I also see it on the left as well in the sense that there's a white progressive university educated elite who is among the most privileged people in the world at the moment who look at conservative voters or at Trump voters as being
• 55:55
  incredibly racist and part of a, you know, a bygone era.
• 55:59
  And those people, I'm not excusing their beliefs, but I'm trying to understand the context and the economic context and the inequality context in which a person whose community has been ravaged by globalization by the decline of the social state.
• 56:14
  I guess it's important to look at the facts and data.
• 56:17
  As you said, you know, I mean, everybody likes to look at a YouTube video of a libtard saying something stupid, you know what I mean?
• 56:25
  And go, ah, there, that's what they think. That's what they say.
• 56:29
  You know, everybody thinks that whatever pops up on Twitter with like, you know, a handful of people that that somehow representative of the entire left or, you know, of this.
• 56:41
  You know, insane left or something like that.
• 56:44
  And it's, um, I don't know, that's not, that's not strictly true.
• 56:48
  The other thing you've got though, your other thing you've got though, emergent is the, is the out center, this phenomenon.
• 56:56
  And these are all your sense makers and your ones who are like, well, just looking at the facts, the facts don't care about your feelings.
• 57:03
  Let's just look at the data and calm down and take a deep breath here.
• 57:07
  Um, you know, and they sort of claim, and I say out center because they claim to be neither left nor right.
• 57:14
  Um, they claim to be on the fence, but they're standing on the fence facing the facing towards the, the left and sort of, you know, berating the left for, for being insane.
• 57:28
  And then sort of at the same time going, ah, come on like, you know, if, you know, everybody, you know, if it wasn't Trump that did it, you know, you wouldn't be going nuts.
• 57:39
  I don't know, they seem to be, they seem to be excusing the right all the time and the, and the, the insane right and increasingly focusing.
• 57:49
  These sort of anti woke.
• 57:51
  There is, there is a moral panic emerging, you know, which is exactly the same as all the other conspiracy theories and moral panics of the past.
• 58:03
  The satanic panic that you saw coming out in the 90s and then there's actually had a big resurgence now.
• 58:10
  You know, which, which is tied back in with all the rest and you've been seeing it in the States since McCarthyism.
• 58:17
  Well, there's definitely, there are these moral panics that emerge and we end up seeing the same pattern playing out every single time.
• 58:24
  Right, but I don't think that the overarching moral, so there is, I will grant you this kind of just the data, sort of disingenuous kind of.
• 58:37
  Yeah, oggy minded centrist who spends all of their time criticizing the most extreme examples of wokeism who becomes essentially a useful pawn for the rights.
• 58:48
  And I've seen colleagues and friends of mine go down that path over the past five years.
• 58:52
  I've seen people who started out being genuine centrist and I don't, and I don't mean fence it as I mean, you know, rational people who's hearts were in the right place, who have been, I don't know, they've been captured by their audiences, I guess.
• 59:05
  And the audience can't do anything. Yeah, into, even all the way to anti-vaxx and, you know, hysterical, you know, the COVID was planned or whatever it might be.
• 59:15
  And that has definitely happened. We've lost people who've become, you know, Trump supporters who were previously, I thought, reasonable people.
• 59:24
  But the analogy does something like, I mean, I can tell you working in the bubble of elite progressive consensus that the religious impulse that you talk about of in groups and out groups where, you know, the, we are currently under siege by an out group.
• 59:43
  And we're, and as we make the arguments about being under siege, we're completely blind to our own privilege.
• 59:49
  Yeah. That is a phenomenon that is, that is happening. I never see greater religious, like I was traveling around Egypt just before the revolution and met with a lot of Islamists.
• 1:00:00
  Well, several, you know, almost jihadist adjacent Islamic fundamentalists. And the kind of looking their eyes was this, this sort of peaceful certainty that I was almost jealous of.
• 1:00:15
  It was like, I wish life wasn't so complicated.
• 1:00:17
  They have just this moral is absolutely unruffled moral clarity.
• 1:00:22
  Yeah.
• 1:00:23
  And I have the only other place I've seen that is among highly progressive, you know, what we might call quote unquote, work colleagues of mine, who are absolutely certain that because they do the acknowledgement of country and because they are into their bush tucker.
• 1:00:38
  And because they're, you know, they, they say all the right things about all the right identity groups that puts them on the, on the side of the right and anyone of the, you know, of the, of the moral of morality.
• 1:00:49
  And then anyone who is so retrograde as to be a trick quote unquote traditional white Australian who doesn't, you know, who doesn't see things their way is part of that out group.
• 1:00:59
  And this is a religiously devoted thing. And it is a moral crusade, somewhat like the satanic panic. I mean, I don't think that you're analogy with the static panic maps, as well as you think it might onto, onto centrist who are worried about work is them because as a centrist, you know, but that that is a gateway drug.
• 1:01:18
  I'm, I'm pointing, I'm seeing a real like religious mindset among the progressive elite.
• 1:01:26
  Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. But see the, I mean, it's in its far more complex than you think in there as well, like your whole progressive left leaning new age wellness community.
• 1:01:38
  Yeah, you know, that's, that's another back story. And it's not long before they're doing fashion stuff too. I mean, they'll be marching alongside Canadian truckers before you know it.
• 1:01:50
  They're in the drum circles there as well. And you're like, oh, my God. And, and they also seem to come together. And like he's like we were saying earlier, you've got Maori, Maori groups who are like Maori mega.
• 1:02:02
  And joining with all this white supremacist ransom, you know, 5G, you know, stuff in their marching alongside white supremacists just without a care in the world.
• 1:02:12
  I mean, it's, it makes for strange bedfellows and it's not, it's, it's far more complex than just left and right.
• 1:02:18
  You know, but there is a moral panic around work is them. And see your centrests, your sense makers, heterodox thinkers, all these ones there who are, you know.
• 1:02:30
  And, and, and then further out from them in the intellectual dark web, you know, you've got people are just asking questions and all this kind of thing.
• 1:02:38
  You know, they're, they're kind of, you know, they're doing the same thing. They're, they're being captured by their audience. And they're also bringing a lot of people in in a kind and end up tending towards some, some crypto fascist kind of stuff as you go along.
• 1:02:58
  And, and after a while that they'll go full for ashy.
• 1:03:01
  You know, it's certainly a thing that happens. I think it just happens.
• 1:03:04
  It's a, it's a thing that happens. But there is this moral panic from Rogan is different from Harris is different from wine.
• 1:03:10
  That's different from Dave Ruben is all from me.
• 1:03:13
  Yeah, but they have an evolution as well. This Bret Weinstein from bloody, you know, eight years ago on this Bret Weinstein now.
• 1:03:21
  I mean, you know, he said he began as one of those just asking questions at the center.
• 1:03:27
  But he was, he was responding to the moral panic about work is a, you know, and the fear that he would be canceled.
• 1:03:35
  And that idea in that fascist turn of, oh, I am the victim.
• 1:03:41
  So me center of power. No, we're not powerful. We are actually being victimized by these, these marginalized others.
• 1:03:50
  But just because it doesn't mean that that should increase inevitable.
• 1:03:53
  I can name just as many people who started out as, yeah, interests.
• 1:03:57
  Well, look, I spent a lot of time in that community over the last three years.
• 1:04:00
  And, and I've got a lot of good friends in there.
• 1:04:02
  And, and I've seen their evolution and devolution, you know, going on in that space as well.
• 1:04:07
  Yeah, look, it's a bit of a gateway drug, the sense making thing.
• 1:04:10
  But, but back to the work is something in the moral panic about that.
• 1:04:14
  You know, it's in its current iteration, cancel culture, you know, began as a thing of the right.
• 1:04:20
  And it wasn't called being canceled. It was called being dixie checked or being donahued.
• 1:04:25
  You remember with the, you know, anybody who spoke against the war on Iraq.
• 1:04:29
  Well, I mean, even call that.
• 1:04:32
  And that was, that was, that was a warning to everyone. You'll be dixie checked. You'll be donahued.
• 1:04:37
  And, yeah, I think eventually that the left has started taking up those tools of the right.
• 1:04:43
  And, and parts of the left have anyway.
• 1:04:46
  But then at the same time, I hear you completely and, and quite agree with you on this, on the window dressing side.
• 1:04:54
  And, and because I'm kind of rejecting post structuralism and a more into structuralism now.
• 1:04:59
  And, you know, in looking at systems and, you know, finding those leverage points for actually changing the material system.
• 1:05:07
  You know, I, I feel that, you know, I feel that quite strongly that, that all the window dressing stuff, all the acknowledgements of country, all this stuff.
• 1:05:16
  It's, I'm becoming increasingly annoyed about these things.
• 1:05:22
  You know, so I did for about a year, I would every time a settler would start out before me.
• 1:05:29
  I'd like to introduce me and they do an acknowledgement of country when, when they'd introduce me.
• 1:05:34
  I would repeat back word for word their acknowledgement of country, but in the voice of an orc.
• 1:05:40
  Like the Lord of the Rings.
• 1:05:42
  And instead of Aboriginal, I'd say, you know, I would like to acknowledge that this is halfling land.
• 1:05:49
  And then I'd throw in something like that.
• 1:05:53
  But I'm never ever going to give it back raw.
• 1:05:57
  You know, that kind of thing.
• 1:05:58
  It went badly, but kept doing it, you know, for a long time.
• 1:06:03
  And I start saying to people, it's like, well, you know, you have real estate.
• 1:06:07
  Are you going to, you know, you don't go acknowledging that that's our land without saying, I'm not moving.
• 1:06:17
  This is mine.
• 1:06:18
  There was a, there was like in this place where I'm living now, there was a real estate auction a while ago.
• 1:06:24
  And they had like a welcome to country.
• 1:06:26
  They had an acknowledgement of country and a big smoking ceremony at the auction.
• 1:06:31
  Wow.
• 1:06:32
  You know, and I was like, you're literally selling the land.
• 1:06:35
  Yeah.
• 1:06:36
  And this is somebody who, you know, they didn't earn that house.
• 1:06:40
  Like they inherited it as intergenerational capital over a number of generations.
• 1:06:47
  You know, from people who really didn't have to work much to get that.
• 1:06:50
  Yeah, no, the boom is working on those days, they did 60s.
• 1:06:53
  You could have an art, just, just show up.
• 1:06:56
  Unskilled labor.
• 1:06:58
  And in five years, everyone has to buy a house.
• 1:07:01
  And then, you know, yeah, no, they bought those jobs and that money wasn't available to everybody.
• 1:07:06
  Because, you know, you have to have that limitability and excludability.
• 1:07:09
  And anyway, so this person's selling that place and making like a million dollars.
• 1:07:15
  And, and this, they've got an elder there doing a smoking ceremony.
• 1:07:20
  And they're acknowledging that it's Aboriginal land.
• 1:07:23
  But, but I'm going to take this million dollars.
• 1:07:26
  And this other person is going to take possession of it.
• 1:07:28
  And what's the smoke for is that to cleanse the spirits of the murder dead off the land there.
• 1:07:34
  Is that to wash away the blood?
• 1:07:37
  What's the acknowledgement for?
• 1:07:39
  Why are you acknowledging as having a job to this Aboriginal land that you're not going to share?
• 1:07:45
  And you're not going to open up the wall.
• 1:07:47
  So there's a free flow of, you know, humans and non-humans on country being able to move across it.
• 1:07:53
  In order to make sure it all doesn't die.
• 1:07:56
  It's like, no, you're going to keep maintaining those boundaries and those barriers to stop those flows of spirit and elements and animals.
• 1:08:03
  And plants and seeds and, and all the flows of waters and, and winds and everything else that actually make, and fire, you know, that makes country work.
• 1:08:13
  You know, you're going to have these parcels that you have walls and fences around.
• 1:08:18
  And you're going to kill that land and you're not going to stop doing that.
• 1:08:23
  So like acknowledge that.
• 1:08:26
  That's what I'd like to hear in an acknowledgement.
• 1:08:29
  I want to hear someone say it. I want to hear someone say, look.
• 1:08:34
  I'm doing all right out of this and I'm not prepared to give it up.
• 1:08:38
  And I'm really sorry and I feel really bad, but, but I'm keeping all this.
• 1:08:44
  Like I want to hear someone say that.
• 1:08:46
  Like I'd go up and hug that person.
• 1:08:48
  Yeah.
• 1:08:49
  See how low brother, you know, thank you.
• 1:08:52
  Thank you for speaking straight.
• 1:08:55
  I'll tell you that I'll tell you that Tyson. I just bought a house and, and I'm not giving it up.
• 1:08:59
  And I'm not.
• 1:09:00
  I mean, that that's just the reality of life.
• 1:09:02
  Yeah.
• 1:09:03
  You know, and every time I hear that kind of fatuous virtue signaling to other rich white people, it makes me sigh a little bit and think about the poverty and the disenfranchisement of Indigenous Australians.
• 1:09:20
  The, the barriers that are put in front of them that people who do those acknowledgements seem genuinely uninterested in tackling maybe, you know, maybe a little bit, but not in any way that's actually going to hurt them.
• 1:09:32
  And I, I am not going to give up my house and yet I know, I mean, this is the moral tragedy of it.
• 1:09:38
  I know that my grandparents who gave my parents the deposit to buy their house, which then increased in value.
• 1:09:46
  I was able to grow up in when my grandparents bought their house for almost nothing Indigenous Australians weren't even citizens.
• 1:09:53
  I mean, this was before the referendum.
• 1:09:55
  That was basically forna in Australia and had no opportunity to do what my grandparents were able to do in New Zealand.
• 1:10:02
  And I'm aware of that moral crime and I'm benefiting from that moral crime.
• 1:10:08
  And also the infrastructure was built off the wages of the Aboriginal people who were working in your grandparents' time and not, and not getting their pay.
• 1:10:18
  You know, it's, it's just, I mean, I mean, we're, tell me where, tell me where this moral, this, this comfortable moral position is.
• 1:10:27
  You know, tell me where you can stand that is not just horrific.
• 1:10:32
  You know, there isn't, there isn't a place to stand for anybody, for any of us.
• 1:10:37
  There's no place to stand that is, that is comfortable, that is right where you can feel ethically.
• 1:10:42
  Like, you know, to be here in this place in time is to be ethically compromised, morally compromised.
• 1:10:49
  And there isn't anywhere to go with that.
• 1:10:53
  No, I mean, you know, your new wants to response to that, what kind of, I guess, determine, you know, what kind of a person you are when you die.
• 1:11:05
  I mean, my goal is for us all to be fair to income about it.
• 1:11:09
  And there's just a lot of not being fair to income at the moment.
• 1:11:12
  There's a lot of posturing and there's a lot of show and there's not a lot of recognition that I want to do everything that I can do to actually make real change.
• 1:11:26
  And if the necessary step to get to that change is for us all to play these language games and to have this kind of rhetorical dance that we currently have where we're all supposed to say the correct thing and pretend that everything was absolutely perfect.
• 1:11:41
  Before white people invaded this continent and think that white Western civilization is irredeemable and that all white people are complicit and are structural racists.
• 1:11:52
  And that we, you know, that we need to do acknowledgements of country as if they were saying Hail Mary's in order to absorb ourselves against the crimes of our fathers.
• 1:12:02
  If that's a necessary portal through which we can find justice, I'll do it. I just doubt it.
• 1:12:08
  I doubt that that's the best way because there's something that there's something that feels phony about it.
• 1:12:13
  Yeah. Well, and it's not addressing that the actual structures at all.
• 1:12:18
  Nobody really wants to look at that. People like to think that if they can just change hearts and minds, everything's fine.
• 1:12:23
  So all we've been focusing on for like 20 years is, is, you know, what do they call them?
• 1:12:31
  Like cultural cultural awareness workshops and things.
• 1:12:35
  It's quite an industry.
• 1:12:39
  And, you know, and I, I, man, I used to do them. I used to deliver those and I know I've been to so many and seen so many and help people develop them and all that kind of thing.
• 1:12:50
  I've never seen, I've never seen it change anything or make a difference with people.
• 1:12:56
  Like, and, and if you do make a difference, it's like there has to be a reset within a couple of weeks because those people need to be able to feed and shelter themselves.
• 1:13:05
  And, you know, if you're in a system that depends upon inequality and on you doing your part for that and, you know, being a good neoliberal subject, then, you know, you're not going to be able to run around doing that for a while.
• 1:13:18
  All the time.
• 1:13:21
  But, you know, I guess the good thing about the work left is that, I don't know, they've made it acceptable, you know, to be able to focus on that.
• 1:13:31
  The problem is the call out thing. So look at Deacon, we have this indigenous knowledge systems lab. And so that operates on indigenous law and indigenous protocols, you know, for inquiry into complex problems in the world.
• 1:13:45
  And one of our protocols is, is that we never call people out. We call people in. And that's, that's the difference.
• 1:13:55
  So calling in is very different. So you're calling people into the right way to do things. You're calling people into the story. You're calling them into the fire.
• 1:14:04
  And, you know, you're redirecting there. You're never calling them out for the bad behavior because the people can't, people can't handle that.
• 1:14:13
  You know, Dale Carnegie, how to win friends and influence people way back in the day. He said that and he was right. You know, nobody likes to be criticized. No one likes to be called out.
• 1:14:25
  You know, if you want to alienate someone and drive them further and further into their bad behavior, and then you call them out.
• 1:14:33
  So we don't do that. We call people in and it's a lot more productive.
• 1:14:39
  In San talking, chapter 10, Tyson, you talk about this sense that what people can have that everything that an indigenous person says is wise, which I thought was really interesting because there is one reason why I think there, I think there's a
• 1:14:58
  disjoint, there's a rhetorical disjoint in the media in talking about indigenous issues is because if an indigenous person, if you suspect that and this is what I meant before about I'm going to respect you enough to actually ask you questions without holding my punches.
• 1:15:14
  If something, if it's sound, if you're a bullshit detector goes off with someone who is of the same race or the same ethnicity or the same, I suppose, gender as you are, then you're able to call them on it.
• 1:15:27
  If a person is from a traditionally disenfranchised community, it becomes harder.
• 1:15:32
  And if a person is an indigenous Australian, then it seems to be, in my view, a special pass in the sense that we don't necessarily know enough about indigenous culture to know whether or not what being said is wise or whether it's silly.
• 1:15:46
  And I love that you are brave enough to address that. What's the correct response?
• 1:15:53
  I just, I think it's more complicated. Look, that's an audience capture thing as well.
• 1:15:58
  You know, that there is a white gaze on our elders and on us all the time. You wouldn't frickin' believe the things that people project on me.
• 1:16:08
  Like, I think I make it pretty clear in in Santor that I'm really marginal, even in my own community, and that, you know, I'm a very, very junior sibling, you know, and pretty much have the all the knowledge of about a 14 year old boy.
• 1:16:26
  You know, it's, I make it very, very clear, but I keep getting these things projected on me that I have all this wisdom.
• 1:16:35
  Oh, this ancient wisdom, you know, and it's not, it's not black follows projecting that on me.
• 1:16:40
  It's, you know, so I think, I think people are captured by that stuff.
• 1:16:44
  And so you end up with, you know, people who, well, that's the only way they can make a living, you know, is by sort of going along with that to some extent or another.
• 1:16:54
  And you end up with a whole heap of like, you know, new age stuff getting mixed up in there, you know, that there's plenty of bloody things.
• 1:17:03
  It's, I don't know, there's, there's a lot of like Aboriginal sort of spiritual things that you can do now that's pretty much like, well, we've painted some dots on a yoga mat, you know, there's some, there's some rubbish out there.
• 1:17:18
  But also, you know, good on your brush, you do what you need to do to feed your family, you know.
• 1:17:24
  Yeah, and it's, I don't know, there's a lot of stuff you see people coming in and indigenous people coming into tech and like, you know, kind of, I, and I keep saying you can't just paint some dots on a Fitbit and call it a digital walk about, you know, there's, you know, there's a difference between, I don't know if you're doing a chatbot, for example, if you were going to make an indigenous chatbot,
• 1:17:52
  then what would make an indigenous is right back in the decision trees, you know, in the semantic sort of stuff that you have to, you build a chatbot on with the decisions that they make when they're yawning, that would make them yawning instead of just chat, you know, that's where you'd have to make the changes to make it an indigenous chatbot.
• 1:18:12
  You can't just feed it some anthropological data sets so that's talking about indigenous content, and that's the thing, that's the problem, we all focus on the content rather than the process, you know, we focus on the, the, you know, the window dressing, the, the stuff on the outside, the code of paint on the wall, you know, we focus on that instead of the structure of things.
• 1:18:40
  Tyson, this happens, this happens a lot, but yeah, there is that, there is a bit of a thing about indigenous wisdom and, you know, I think a lot of people are rewarded for, you know, mirroring back to people that, that this sort of weird wellness guru or new age kind of spirituality, but through a kind of an indigenous lens with a couple of gum leafs on it, you know, this, this happens.
• 1:19:05
  But, you know, it's, I don't know, is that any worse than the people from other cultures that do the same bloody thing, you know, there's a lot of mess in the world right now, and we get, we get a lot of that mess too.
• 1:19:18
  We get, we got followers wearing, we get elders wearing mega hats, we go back to that, I want to get back to that.
• 1:19:24
  We get all kinds of work on conspiracy theories because what's so you can take this wherever you want, but I'm most interested in the anti-vax strain among indigenous Australians that cropped up during covert, and then, and of course, I think we all understand that a community that has been repeatedly betrayed is one that is more susceptible to feelings suspicious of authorities who tell them that it's a good thing to get things jabbed in their arms like I think we can take that as a given.
• 1:19:49
  But then there's this other question of like, why would a black fellow or a Maori want to be wearing a make America great hat when that is so associated with a certain vision of kind of white.
• 1:20:00
  I mean, I know that I'll get a lot of shit from Trump people for saying this because they don't think that it is, but I think there is a traditionalist kind of white, pro-Western civilization like, you know, reverence for white culture.
• 1:20:14
  How do they reconcile that?
• 1:20:17
  It's just good story.
• 1:20:20
  You know, so like everything in our world is coming from story, and there is spirit, there is always spirit in that.
• 1:20:30
  You know, there's kind of a spiritual ontology that's underpinning everything.
• 1:20:38
  And that is missing, you know, from your kind of mainstream narratives, you know, that everything you hear from the office of the chief scientist is kind of, it's just kind of just, it's a dry old prospect.
• 1:20:53
  That one in terms of story and in terms of spirit, everything has spirit sanitized off it, but not the crazy right, you know, the crazy right and where that meets the crazy left, you know, these people have good story.
• 1:21:10
  They've got good story that's compelling and there's spirit in there.
• 1:21:14
  You know, there's good and evil, there's freaking demons, bros, there's demons in there.
• 1:21:19
  And we can like, yeah, it's like, oh, thank god, there's some really good white people here who are talking about freaking demons and stuff.
• 1:21:30
  It's so, it's so resonates with me what you're saying about story because I can't quite, I haven't quite come to any conclusions about it, but then you're definitely onto something in a, in the appeal of a grand narrative.
• 1:21:44
  And this is, we're seeing it on the right and also on the left, as you say, like this.
• 1:21:49
  So, no offense, but you almost sound like you're edging up to Jordan Peterson territory in the sense that Jordan Peterson is a person who says the world is all about narrative.
• 1:22:00
  And if you strip young men in particular of stories of a meaningful story about their lives, then they're going to be lost and they're going to be dysfunctional and they're going to act out in the most egregious ways.
• 1:22:11
  And the young male is the most dangerous thing in the world always has been.
• 1:22:14
  And when he doesn't have a narrative to fit into, he becomes a terrifying barbarian.
• 1:22:20
  And, you know, Peterson would say that that's what's happening in the West because we've, we've unmoored ourselves from sensors of tradition, you know, in Peterson's case, he'd be talking about religion as being a fundamental component of that.
• 1:22:32
  But I wonder what you, I know, you know, fan of Peterson specifically, but I wonder what you may think that that's like of our current predicament as being one in which we're bereft of story.
• 1:22:44
  Look, I think there's a lot of obfuscation in that space.
• 1:22:48
  There are a lot of obfuscation in that space where the overlap of the intellectual dark web and the heterodox thinking community, all that sort of stuff.
• 1:22:58
  A lot of obfuscation arising from this kind of mythopoetic, you know, the thing as, and sort of intersections with, you know, Silicon Valley kind of California ideology stuff and, you know, this idea of mythic narratives and cables heroes journey and archetypes and all this kind of stuff.
• 1:23:21
  You know, but, and they kind of have these, this fractalization of, of metaphors, you know, constant metaphors and analogy and analogies that kind of, they just tend to obfuscate what they're really saying, which in the end, if it's Peterson, it'll be a message like where you have it both ways.
• 1:23:43
  This is a thing, you know, he'll be going, well, there is no patriarchy proof to me that patriarchy exists. I'm not entirely certain that, you know, so you'll say there's, there's no such thing as patriarchy, but you should be grateful to it because look at all the things that's given you.
• 1:24:01
  You know what I mean? And, and at the same time, at the same time, you, you're, you appear to since tend to, they'll take something that has a core of truth to it.
• 1:24:11
  Now, wrap it up in a several layers of bullshit and keep spinning it out. Yeah, it's just, I tell you, it's a lot of trickery. Do you want to hear the first, the first paragraph for my next book?
• 1:24:25
  Please.
• 1:24:26
  You get this exclusive here. Awesome.
• 1:24:28
  But only because it's germane to what we're saying. Okay. There's my next book. It's pretty much all about this stuff.
• 1:24:34
  Great. Oh, so you know how the last one I started out with the kidner? Yeah.
• 1:24:38
  I'm starting this one with the kidner too. That's if it makes it through the editing process, which it might not.
• 1:24:43
  Anyway, first paragraph is, did you know that male kidners have four penises?
• 1:24:49
  If I were as smart as an kidner, I could use that fact to come up with an evolutionary theory about male dominance and projected onto my own species, then sell a million books.
• 1:25:00
  It's not really a fact though. He only has one grotesque dick with four heads and his mate probably doesn't want that horrible thing anywhere near either of her vagina.
• 1:25:11
  So I don't know. That's a bit of a bleak reference to Peterson's lobster stuff. You know what I mean?
• 1:25:20
  Anyway, so that's how I'm opening the book. That's great.
• 1:25:24
  I don't know if I'm allowed to say penis and dick and vagina like that many times in two sentences.
• 1:25:31
  If the publisher rejects it, please push back against them.
• 1:25:35
  But so let's set aside all of his disingenuousness and just look at whether or not there's a kernel of truth, as you say, in part of the diagnosis, which is that if you've got white nationalists and you've got these far right people and the
• 1:25:51
  and kind of Western chauvinists as they call themselves creating narratives about a long, you know, a lost era of the past that they want to resurrect, you know, a future which could be much better if we weren't just constantly being undermined by these, whatever it is, immigrants or First Nations people.
• 1:26:13
  And then on the other side of politics, you've got these people who are for one of a better word, woke who are extremely obsessed by a narrative about about the history of civilization being one of colonialism and oppression and that the arc of justice is one in which we have to in an almost paternalistic and condescending way elevate the voices of marginalized communities and unquestioningly listen to everything that they say without giving them the respect of engaging with them rationally, I would argue.
• 1:26:42
  And then what I see is two camps which are weaving huge meaningful narratives out of a culture that is lacking one and in that small respect isn't Jordan right.
• 1:26:57
  Like Jordan's right about bloody clean your room and being nice to people and that's, you know, that's it.
• 1:27:09
  Yeah, so I mean, in that piece I sent you, you know, about the black pilled sort of sort of thing, you know, there's this interview with the young fella, a gondigemara boy that I've known since he was quite young.
• 1:27:26
  And, you know, I've been alongside him through his gradual radicalization there online and, you know, he's done, he's read Peterson's entire reading list, not just the Peterson's books, you know, but all the books he recommends. So he's read all the soltenets and then each and et cetera, et cetera.
• 1:27:45
  You know, I mean, I don't know, I've just I've watched him graduate from Jesse Ventura, you know, through Jesse Ventura's conspiracy theory stuff when he was a kid and he collect all the figurines watching graduate to MMA, you know, and Joe Rogan, et cetera, et cetera.
• 1:28:03
  You know, and just just watch that with interest and I know some of the stuff that comes out of his mouth, it, you know, Jordan Peterson stuff never ends with it doesn't just end with that that that grain of truth and like really I mean, it's pretty basic clean your room and be nice to people, you know, and your life will change.
• 1:28:21
  You know, and he gives people that gift and they are just those young men are just so overwhelmed with gratitude, you know, and then they just swallow hook line and sink or all the other bullshit.
• 1:28:33
  You know, so he might he might have some truth stuff and some right stuff that he puts out initially, but then that's he's doing that in disingenuously because I feel like they're just radicalizing people from there.
• 1:28:46
  And you're in your zeal to extinguish Jordan Peterson, the man from the pedestal of credibility, you're somewhat dodging the question or the opportunity to address the question of of story and of narrative.
• 1:29:01
  Like is this a problem or is it not a problem?
• 1:29:04
  It just he doesn't know what story is you get about Jordan.
• 1:29:07
  Okay, all these people so all these people don't know what story is story is something completely different.
• 1:29:15
  Joseph Campbell, Joseph Campbell has sort of put this idea forward of this hero's journey and he, you know, went and got exotic precedence, you know, from various indigenous peoples around the world and sort of recast those things.
• 1:29:29
  I know that he was it was disinformation what he gathered from here in Aboriginal Australia as well.
• 1:29:37
  And so he's projected this entire lens, you know, of this hero's journey and all these archetypes, you know, into the stories from here and it's just not that's not what story is.
• 1:29:49
  What is a story story is something that emerges from a collective, you know, over deep time, it's it's an intergenerational thing.
• 1:29:58
  And you know, it develops and grows in those ways. It has place, it has place in it.
• 1:30:04
  And you know, it has variables of time, place and really intensive relations.
• 1:30:10
  It has law in it, you know, that shows you how to be. It is a nomadic device. It is a cognitive map, you know, for your spatial relations in the world, which is how most of your cognition happens as a human being.
• 1:30:26
  The story is all these things. It's it's much more than this kind of myth of poetic thing that people are just kind of awkwardly sort of wrestling around with at the moment.
• 1:30:39
  In a story is bigger, story is more.
• 1:30:45
  Yeah, so, so I would say a lot of that is there's a wrong story. How we would say a lot of the stuff they're looking at there.
• 1:30:52
  Tyson, I could continue this conversation for two hours, but alas, I can't, I have to go.
• 1:30:57
  I know.
• 1:30:58
  It's like just the tip here.
• 1:31:01
  It's so lovely to talk to you. You've got such a such a great and huge brain and I'd love to continue this either either socially or on the record.
• 1:31:10
  Again, when you get back from your trip.
• 1:31:11
  Yeah, for sure, for sure.
• 1:31:14
  Well, yeah, this sounds like a beer, a beer tour.
• 1:31:17
  Yeah, exactly. That's right. Yeah.
• 1:31:19
  Yeah.
• 1:31:20
  We can just shout over the top of each other.
• 1:31:22
  Exactly. That's right.
• 1:31:24
  Thanks, Tyson.
• 1:31:25
  All right. No worries.