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Q&A: Unlocking Scripture: Answers to Your Bible Questions with Abigail Boone · The Grove Church

0:10
Hey, everyone. Welcome to the Cultivate Podcast through the Grove Church. I am
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Charlie Lofton, the lead pastor there, and really glad that you've joined us. And we
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have resident expert question asker,
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Abigail Boone. What's up? I'm great. I'm excited for this. You've
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you this is our second time. I I threatened you the
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last time we did this that if this went well, we would do it again.
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Oh, yeah. Which I was hoping it would be. And then it went well, I
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think. I haven't caused you pause yet, but Okay. It still went pretty
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well. It went well. It went well. And
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so we are actually gonna be wrapping up here today a series that we've
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been doing. This, I think, will be our 8th episode. We're just kinda walking our
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way through talking about the Bible. We spent a few weeks talking about
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why we believe the Bible is authoritative, where we find truth, how
0:55
did we get the Bible that we have, and then that's when you and I
0:58
did a q and a on that. Yep. And then I had Melanie Alexander as
1:02
a guest, and we Baller. Really spent.
1:11
She's a baller. She's a baller. No. I mean, like, if she's let's if she
1:14
is a baller, let's say it. Yes. Okay. Awesome. Melanie
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Alexander, who is a baller, was she did a
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few episodes with us. Really, we're talking about why people
1:26
don't trust the Bible or don't wanna connect with with God through
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through the word, and how we can overcome that, and kind of
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some practical helps and tips on getting into the
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Bible. And through those 3,
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episodes, I was imagining, again, our resident question asker,
1:44
Abigail. I bet I bet she's gonna have, some questions
1:47
come out of this, and so to wrap that up and probably this whole
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series on the Bible, I said, well, let's just do this one more time.
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So here we are. I'm just gonna keep doing that. I'm just sitting here, just
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waiting for whatever's coming. Amazing. Well, we're gonna do a little light,
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rapid fire. Rapid fire? What? You want short you want short you want quick answers?
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Yes. K. How many books of the Bible are there? 66. You
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know that for a fact? Yes. 39 in the Old Testament, 27 in the New
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Testament. Okay. I could sing a song and get you through most of them. Please.
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No. I can do the New Testament one for sure. I don't I don't remember
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the Old Testament song, but I could get you all the way to
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Daniel in the Old Testament, and then I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna hedge
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a little bit through the minor prophets, but then I'll I'll end in
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Malachi. I might I might miss 1 or 2 out of order That's right. In
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the old testament. There's 6 3927. The 50 United States.
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The 50 nifty United States from 13th to
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18th. Again, I can't remember the Old Testament at all, but the, the New Testament
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is Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. Next in the book of Romans. I'm
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not in that elementary school. No. In elementary school? Element
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when I was in elementary school at church. Interesting. Okay. Well, that
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was a tangent. How
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many letters did Paul write? Woah. 13?
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Oh, really? I didn't fact check any of them. 13. Is gonna trust you.
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Question mark. Okay. We'll check that later.
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Your quick count.
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No. You're getting it wrong? 13.
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Okay. What's the last book in the old testament?
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I already said that. You didn't? I did.
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Malachi. Malachi. Malachi. It's exactly what I was gonna say. Mhmm. I'm
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sure. What's your least favorite book of the
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Bible?
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For different reasons, I would say
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Deuteronomy, Lamentations, or Revelation.
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Oh, interesting. Deuteronomy is almost a repeat of
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Leviticus. True. And so it's just like I read this already. Yes.
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I get historically why at that moment, Moses wanted
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to retell them all of that. I get it. But if you're
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especially if you're reading through the Bible, it's different. It's
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difficult. It honestly seems like it's you're reading it 4 times
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because I don't know why, but everything in the old testament is like,
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hey. Don't go to the market this day. Like I said,
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don't go to the market this day. Oh, I get you. And then you read
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the next book and you read it 2 more times. And then Lamentations
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is just depressing. I mean, it's just I mean, I get it. He was sad,
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and I'm glad, I guess, that the Bible has these kinds of things,
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just like real laments. Right. But, I mean, I wouldn't say I again, not
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talking about its quality. You didn't say, what are the worst? Ones
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you don't enjoy. Yeah. And then revelation's just weird. And we think we know what
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it means, but we don't. I like things that are just a lot
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simpler to understand, even if they have a lot of depth in their
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meaning. But, Revel, I I
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Okay. What's your favorite book of the Bible?
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Wow. I I I'm
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sorry. I'm sorry that I have to give you 3 again. I would say That's
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right. John, Romans, and Galatians. The gospel of
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John, I think, is just it's it's unique in the 4
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gospels and is really geared towards people who are who don't understand
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Jesus and just you get to see the way he encounters people who
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are are who are not religious and the way that he loves and interacts with
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them with that which I think is great. It's also really good to ask people
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who are new to Christianity or considering Christianity. It's a
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great book for them. Romans is just a deep
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theological workbook, which I think is incredible. Mhmm. And Galatians, I
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think, its theme of really helping us understand the difference
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between, the freedom that I have because of
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what Jesus did mixed with, but I do have a responsibility
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to obey God's commandments. I really think that is a foundational
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issue that most of us struggle with that I think Galatians speaks to very,
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very clearly and is
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just personally has been especially over the last few years, has been very
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personally impactful to me. Yeah. Paul is an
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insane writer. Like, if I were to write a letter,
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nothing like his. Yeah. Yeah. Why why say something in 2
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words, 1 20 will do? Right. And then, you know what, he loves
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more than anything is a good run on sentence. Yep. But then, also, it's
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like this kinda like Marvel where you're like, woah. I didn't expect that to get
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connected. It ties it together. Yeah. It
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ties it all together. Yeah. Like, it just never write like that.
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I wasn't we may not have time for you to answer this, but food for
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thought. What would be a letter sent to our church
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that you would just be like, I have to read this in front of everyone?
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What like, which one of those which one of No. No. No. You get a
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letter today, like the letters in the Bible. So so some
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apostle somewhere sends me a letter. Letter to the Grove, the Groveians.
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The Grove. You're asking me what the what the content of that is? That
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you'd say, I've gotta just read this in front of the whole entire story. I
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mean, if it was from an apostle, I would regardless of what it was, I
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think I mean, if I if I felt like God dropped it out some way
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through an apostle writing it, I don't think it would matter what it said. Right.
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I would feel the need to read it. Right. But if just some
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randar sent me a letter, which they do, they'll send me I get I get
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emails all the time. So, like I'm not trying to read them. The Godfather
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sent you a letter. Marlon Brando? Yeah.
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And then you're like, alright, church. I've got the letter
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for everyone. Yeah. I'm I don't think I'm playing
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no. I'm out of my mouth. Alright. Well,
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turns out you know the Bible. It's a good thing that you know it and
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are leading us in that way. We'll hop into the questions, though.
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Okay. So y'all covered a ton, you and Melanie
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did, from practical all the way to kinda just, like, her
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experience and what other people's experience with the Bible is. So these questions kind
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of bounce around in a couple of different categories.
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So one thing that I have
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friends who have asked this question, my
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people in my family have asked it. The
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text that we're reading is super old. Okay.
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And like, I just read a book a couple of weeks ago. That was
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the 7th edition because things have been updated in our
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world. But you're not gonna find a 50th edition of the
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Bible. Right. I gotcha. So how do you even trust a book that's
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not been amended or even added in
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secular ideas that we have now? You know? Right. I
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mean, the first thing that pops into mind, a few things that all at once
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there, the first one that pops into my mind is kind of, like, updated by
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whom for for what reason. And I think when most people talk like
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that, they think about it in terms of updating it for the
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culture Mhmm. As if, hey. Culture has evolved and
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then changed in such and such a way where
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we need to kind of update some of these kind of this some of this
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outdated thinking. Right. The reality of it is the Bible from the
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very beginning was meant to be countercultural. The
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we the the Bible can get criticism, but it is completely unfair,
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and I would say not particularly thoughtful to say that it was
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affirming kind of the traditional beliefs of its time.
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Right. You don't need to write commands to tell people to
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do things that they're already doing Right. Or to believe things they already
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believe. And so there is there is especially
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in the New Testament, these letters that Paul was writing were very countercultural,
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and the things that Moses was saying in the Old Testament, that you guys have
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been living as slaves in in Egypt for 400 years. You've
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probably forgotten who God is and who you are
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as his people. Let me remind you of all of these things, and we're
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going to create something that is very different than the world around
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us on purpose. And so it was
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the Bible was always meant to be countercultural and to kind of to be a
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way we're gonna live above these kind of cultural pulls
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that our culture can do to us. And so I do I I I don't
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even under like, if the Bible were to be updated,
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it certainly shouldn't be in that regard, and the other thing that I
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think is, is this a script? Is
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this a is this a book? Is this a word from
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God about the way life is and
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the way morality should be and kind of the kind of
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people that God has called us to be. Right. If
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that's true, then it doesn't need to be updated. Right.
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It's still a place. Thing that it needs is I need to understand it well
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enough to understand how these are principles apply to this context. Right. So
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I'm not I'm not updating the principles to fit them into my context.
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I'm understanding the principles and applying them to my context. Right.
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And so in that sense, the Bible doesn't need to be
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updated. It just needs to be understood and applied
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in a new context. I like that.
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Especially, you know, we've talked some with our staff
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and, even just leaders of the church about
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the bible isn't necessarily gonna affirm one
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side of one type of identity that you want it to. Right.
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It's gonna be more of the middle, countercultural, and
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more so character traits. Yeah. I mean, it's like we got a
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culture we got cultures. I mean, we got, you know, red versus blue in America
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right now and these kind of these very different pull pulls that we
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have, and we we desperately want God to be on our
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side versus their side when God is on his side, and he's asking us to
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live very differently, whether you're talking about the way that Paul talks about
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freedom or the way that Jesus talks about the kingdom of God, or the
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way that Moses and the authors talk about, you know, living as the chosen
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people called out by God, all of those things rise
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above what would be considered 2
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very natural poles that that they're
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fighting. So they Paul's battling between a a a a
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rule based Jewish culture Right. And a
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hedonistic gentile culture, Roman culture,
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hedonistic. What is right is determined by what
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feels good. K. Right? So he's not affirming either of
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those two things. He's not saying, hey. We should live in a very rule based
12:33
religious system, and we should not just do whatever feels good.
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He's calling us to something very different. And so we look back
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on it, and because it feels more restrictive than what we want it to
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be, he's like, oh, he's just affirming
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their kind of rules based culture, and I was like, no. No. No.
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No. He his strongest words that he had to
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say, I think, were against the people who were falling into rules based
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culture in Galatians. I mean, he does say some things about people who were
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experimenting a little bit more with what I would say is hedonism in Corinthians,
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but I would say his harshest words, Galatians, Colossians,
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are more towards people who are viewing Jesus and a
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relationship with him through a lens of rules. And so he
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was this same pull that we have between these two ideas
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is something that I believe existed back then. Right. And, again,
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Paul's not talking about splitting the difference between those two, but living very differently than
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both of them. Right. So not just picking a side that's actually countercultural no
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matter what culture Right. The Bible is applied to. Yep. Yeah.
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Well, pivot us just a tiny bit. Something you just said made me think about
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it. Melanie was talking about how the whole entire Bible is one
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cohesive story. Right. Even though they feel kind of different
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along the way. So kind of
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recap for me what you would say is the main theme of the Bible.
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And as you're reading, are you supposed to be searching for
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that main theme everywhere you're looking? Because I read the old testament
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and new testament, and it seems different stories.
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Right. So it's a little bit to me I can't remember if I
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said this with Melanie or not, but it's a little bit like,
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the gospels is a little bit like the way that Star Wars
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was. You know, episode 4 came out first. Oh, I've never
14:24
seen Star Wars. So episode 4 came out first, and then they made prequels. Right?
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And so it's almost like even though, obviously, these came out in chronological
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order, that Jesus is kinda the main character of this thing.
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And, like, you you start there, and you read about Jesus and and His
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transformational life, His transformational death, and then how His resurrection
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kind of changed the course of human history. And then you read the old
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testament to see how we how we got there, and then you
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read the new testament to see okay, well, now based that this
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has happened, how should we live? Right. So if I were to give an
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overarching picture to the story, and there are people who are way more eloquent in
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this than I am, I would say that God has
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created a world, a universe, and a people to be
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in relationship with, and these people
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rebelled against him, and the
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story is the story of God bringing
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those people back to him. Right. So they there it is a story of
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rebellion and redemption, and so you see
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you see cycles of that all throughout the Old Testament,
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ultimately building towards the ultimate moment of redemption and
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reconciliation that happens with Jesus. Right. And then you
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see in Revelation, which I've already said is kind of confusing,
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kind of how the story supposedly is gonna end. Right. But, again, it is
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probably the least understood book of the Bible, but it kinda gets us
15:50
from God created to the rebellion
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to all of these different ways that God is
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redeeming and and bringing them back and trying to reconcile
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them that culminates ultimately what Jesus did. Yeah.
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So I'm gonna hop us down the question list. This may be kind of out
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of order. So Jesus is the one that is
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the reconciliation, the Right. Culmination of what was happening in
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the Old Testament. Correct me if I'm wrong. But in
16:20
the 1st book of John, they describe him as the Word.
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Okay. And I think of the Word being the Bible.
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And it says that he was there in the beginning.
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What? Okay. So the what the what is being
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translated there in John chapter 1, in the beginning was a word,
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and the word was with God, and the word was God. Right. The Greek word
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there is logos, l o g o s, or I
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mean, obviously Logos. Yeah. Logos.
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And that is a that is a Greek philosophical
16:56
concept Mhmm. Essentially of the
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eternal wisdom in the universe. Mhmm.
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And so what he is doing is taking a a a
17:08
secular philosophical principle that existed
17:12
in that culture. Again, the gospel of John is a very evangelistic
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book. Okay. It is written to people who don't know Jesus to help them understand
17:20
who Jesus is, and primarily a non Jewish audience, a
17:24
non Jewish, non Christian audience. Okay. So I'm gonna take
17:27
this philosophical concept that you already
17:31
have and tell you that That would have already had it. That this
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idea that there is this eternal
17:38
wisdom that is both that is both part
17:42
of God, but different than God,
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this idea that you have is actually was
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manifested in the person of Jesus Christ. Okay. And
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so it kind of helps us understand kind of the
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theology of who Jesus is, of he is separate
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from God the Father, but he is equal to God as a God, but there's
18:04
just one God. Right. And you put all of that together,
18:08
and that fries our brains when we think about it.
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This was his way of helping them introduce them to who Jesus
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is with a concept that they already had a measure of
18:20
familiarity with. So he's using it in a different way than what
18:23
they're using it, but it is it is it is a it's a it's
18:27
a starting ground Mhmm. For them to understand what ultimately
18:31
is a very difficult concept, which is, how do I reconcile the fact
18:35
that Jesus is God, the father is God, but there's just one God? And Jesus
18:38
was a person, but Jesus is also God. Well,
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it's he he's he's he's very similar to this idea of
18:45
logos, and if you understand
18:49
that and imagine that Logos became a
18:53
person. Okay. And if Logos becomes a person,
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that's who Jesus is. Okay. So not necessarily the Bible.
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Right. Right. And so we we we use the
19:05
word as kind of slang shorthand to refer to the Bible. Right.
19:09
Abigail, you need to get be be getting in the word. Gotta get gotta get
19:12
in the word. Right. Right. Right. Right. And so you know, and then you'll see
19:15
other things, like in Hebrews where it talks about the word of God as living
19:19
and active and sharper than any 2 edged source. Question. It seems
19:23
like 90% sure
19:26
that in that sense, he is talking about written words. Okay.
19:30
However, if you wanna go down a rabbit hole, you
19:34
can see that there is, in fact, some debate about whether or not that
19:37
Hebrews 412 Is about the Bible. Is talking about the Bible or is making
19:41
a reference to Jesus. It seems unlikely to me that it is referencing
19:45
Jesus because that is 2 completely different audiences,
19:49
and the book of Hebrews was written to a primarily religious
19:52
Jewish audience Okay. Who would not have been
19:56
as familiar and into that concept. So if you think of the Bible
20:00
as having one author, God Mhmm. Then you cross reference word,
20:04
and you get John 1 and Hebrews 4. It's like, oh, maybe it's the same
20:07
thing. But if you think about it as two very different
20:11
authors writing to 2 very different audiences, it seems
20:14
unlikely that there's those are connected the same way. Which is to me, this is
20:18
kind of a side note. I mean, I don't think this is even maybe it's
20:20
in one of your questions or whatever. We wanna be really careful with cross
20:24
references. Okay. So I'm trying to I look at this phrase. I don't know what
20:27
it means. I'm gonna find other places where the Bible uses that phrase.
20:31
Mhmm. The further you get away from it's okay.
20:35
It's now a different author Right. Different audience, or
20:39
completely different time period, you just need to be a little more careful. So
20:42
I look at a phrase that Paul uses. Like, I wonder what this means. I
20:46
wanna find maybe other uses where Paul used it. Right.
20:50
But if I take the same phrase and, like, oh, this is very similar to
20:54
this phrase that Solomon used in Ecclesiastes different. Just be careful
20:58
Right. Unless Paul is specifically referencing the Old Testament
21:01
passage. The further you get away time wise, audience wise, and author
21:05
wise, the more
21:09
a a cross reference can trip you up. That's interesting. And it's better to find
21:12
the meaning of the phrase that you're struggling with Within that context. In the context
21:16
in which it is used rather than the context in which it's used in
21:20
another part of the body. Right. So you're putting
21:24
my mind in so many different directions. Answer this one quickly.
21:27
K. Do you need to so seeming I might have
21:31
understood this incorrectly, but your the word
21:35
becoming flesh, that audience would have been familiar with
21:39
the analogy or whatever that he was painting. Right.
21:42
Do you think that we need to familiar ourselves with Eastern culture and
21:46
all of that stuff to understand what the Bible's communicating?
21:52
I think I wanna give a yes, no answer to that. Okay.
21:56
I believe that because of who God
22:00
is and because of his ultimate big picture desire to
22:03
communicate truth with his people, I think that someone
22:07
with a humble heart and a desire to learn can pick up
22:11
the bible and learn and grow and understand its
22:15
basic principles. Right. So I don't I don't I don't think that anyone needs
22:19
to feel any real prerequisites to
22:23
allowing God to speak to you from the scripture. And if you feel some
22:27
intimidation about that, there's great places to start. Like I've mentioned, the gospel
22:30
of John for 1, think the Psalms for another are some that
22:34
are very user friendly. Well but for a different type of person, I mean, they're
22:38
just they're just people pouring out their heart to God. Right.
22:41
These these are just poems where people are pouring out their heart to God. And
22:45
if you under if you understand and like poetry Mhmm. And you wanna
22:48
learn
22:58
There's some very user friendly parts to the Bible.
23:02
And so I don't think that you need to have these these all of
23:05
this off book knowledge about culture and things
23:09
to be able to understand it. But the flip side of it is, not only
23:13
is I think that it has it is it can be a very user friendly
23:17
book, there's also a depth and richness to it that I
23:21
think is almost
23:24
infinite. And the more understanding we
23:28
have of of the author, the audience, and the culture,
23:32
the deeper and richer and more fuller our understanding can be.
23:35
Mhmm. And so this it's almost like the I mean, this is
23:39
this I didn't make this up, but people talk about a pool. Like, a like
23:43
a pool has a a a kiddie section and a deep
23:46
section and train all sorts of things where there's, like, every everybody
23:50
everybody can swim here. And is are you having more fun in
23:54
the deep end? Yes. Yeah. But you got you but
23:57
you need you need you need to get there. Right. But that's not the same
24:01
as to say that the pool is not friendly or that you can't enjoy it
24:04
until you can learn how to swim in the deep end, but the Bible definitely
24:07
has a deep end. Right. And so I don't want the presence of a deep
24:10
end to keep people from playing in the shallow part, but
24:14
it's also I don't think it's I think it's important to not stay in the
24:17
shallow part because some of the most exciting things you can do in a pool
24:21
are in the are in the deep end. Yeah. So
24:25
I'll put a pin on what I was about to ask you. There's
24:29
actually someone recently that told me that there feels like there
24:33
can be a hopelessness of, if I'm not a theologian,
24:37
I'm never actually gonna understand what the Bible is teaching. And Melanie did
24:41
kind of explain that there's tools out there to do this and that, but my
24:45
fear even kind of pops up of the heart is deceitful
24:49
and you can't trust yourself. So I at least gotta get a
24:52
theology background or I have to have a theologian and a book sitting right next
24:56
to me so I can understand this. But then you and Melanie
25:00
encouraged someone on their own to engage the Bible in their own
25:04
study. There's a balance there. I mean, it
25:07
if we believe that the Bible is the, quote, word of God, that we believe
25:11
that it is inspired by God and is God's
25:15
he's given it to us to help us know and understand who
25:19
he is, it should be treated with care. You don't want to
25:22
read something and say, well, I read this, and I now now I know what
25:25
God said. God said and, like, oh, oh. Right. Unless you're quoting him, I wouldn't
25:29
I would be I'd be really careful. And so I I think
25:32
there is there is there is reason to say
25:36
that I want to be careful. Right.
25:40
But there's a difference between being careful in my conclusions
25:44
and feeling intimidated by connecting with it.
25:48
Right. And so that is why, again, I think the
25:51
greatest balance is is that we think about, at least in
25:55
part, that my study and reading and understanding of the Bible is
25:59
something that I do in community. Mhmm. Because,
26:03
you know, we are we are learning from one another. And then also,
26:07
even the community in which I'm reading and studying the Bible sits
26:11
itself as a part of the larger community
26:16
of Christians worldwide that sits in a that sits as
26:19
a part of the Christian community that began
26:24
2000 years ago Right. After Jesus came back to life. Right? Right.
26:28
And so we don't we don't where even when we're reading the Bible by
26:31
ourselves, we are not reading it completely in isolation, and
26:35
the dangerous thing would be to do it in isolation, where I'm going to
26:39
do it separate from any of people that I'm in community with,
26:43
separate from the church that I'm a part of, separate from the capital c church,
26:47
separate from, historically, what Christians have believed.
26:50
Right. So it does seem
26:54
like, historically, and this is more so my history nerd
26:57
coming out, but more, like, public readings
27:01
or reading the bible literally only in
27:05
community was the way that it would exist for a long time. There wasn't a
27:08
bible at home that you could read. And even once
27:12
they got access to it, there would just be times where you would read it
27:15
as a family, or you would it's more of a community read thing. And it
27:19
seems like now it's more of a isolated activity. Yeah. One
27:23
of the things that I think that turn would turn American Christianity on its head
27:26
is if we realize that almost every command that you read in the Bible is
27:29
a plural command. So if I were to say,
27:33
hey. Let me tell you what you should do. You should
27:37
blank. If we realize that almost every time that the
27:41
word you is used, it is a plural you. Y'all. Right. It's if
27:44
yeah. If you trans if you took all the yous and replace them with y'alls,
27:49
we probably would live very differently. Right. But we live in a
27:52
very individualistic society right now. Yeah. And
27:56
so then we then we struggle with that. But it it
28:00
you know, we we we a little bit to use something that Melanie said
28:03
in one of the previous episodes. There's a baby in the bath water deal where
28:07
it's like it's a really great thing that now you have personal access to be
28:10
able to read and study and understand the the scripture on your
28:14
own, but to throw out with that the essential
28:18
nature of that being something that we we do
28:21
together. Right. Because you, on your worst day,
28:25
are gonna have some really bad ideas. Oh, 100%.
28:29
And so when we are alone with our own bad
28:33
ideas for an extended period of time, or we only surround ourselves with
28:37
people who or be the kind of people who are gonna buy
28:40
into our bad ideas Right. I mean, even a group of 3 or 4 people
28:44
can come up with some really bad ideas. Cults didn't Or 2 or 3.
28:47
Cults didn't birth out of nowhere. They didn't come out of the ground.
28:51
Right? It is it is grounded in people getting together
28:55
and separating, isolating themselves from the
28:59
bigger picture of what God is Right. God's people have done
29:02
and believed for centuries. Right. I
29:06
think that would be rad like, that'd be radical change, but it would be cool
29:09
to see more of a communal Right. Culture or community based culture.
29:13
And it's it's happened even more in the last 5 years where church
29:17
attendance becomes a little more optional Right.
29:20
Because I don't need that. You just don't need that. What do you mean? What
29:24
do you mean you don't need that? What do you mean you don't need podcast.
29:27
Well, yeah. What do you mean? I I I read the Bible some. I listen
29:29
to podcasts. Like, well, I I need I need I I need to be do
29:33
I'm I'm I'm commanded to do this with people. Right. The command
29:37
to worship is a plural command. Okay. Then you get the verb
29:41
to worship, Mhmm. And it is in a verb in a command form, and it
29:44
is a plural command. Right. Y'all need to worship. Yeah. Not
29:48
you need to worship. Y'all need to worship. It's great that you've got a
29:51
Spotify playlist, and you're listening to worship music. You should totally do that. And
29:55
y'all need to worship. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
29:58
That is challenging for the American culture, for sure.
30:02
So let's
30:06
talk a little bit about the harm that's
30:10
been done with the Bible. I know that's kind of a broad stroke,
30:13
and we could go into a 1000000 different directions of how the Bible has
30:17
been used to harm people in different ways. I mean, it essentially
30:21
seems like someone who's desiring some sort of control. Right.
30:25
And they distort it for that end for themselves.
30:29
So a lot of people probably could be in that position. And
30:32
the last thing they would ever wanna do is to trust the Bible again.
30:36
So, how would you say someone starts to work through that? Why should they
30:40
trust the Bible again? Because that's the one thing that hurt them. So
30:43
why should they trust it again? And how do they go back through the
30:47
process of reengaging God and trusting what it says for
30:51
them? Honestly, when when people make that sort of argument,
30:55
it it lands better with me when they say, how can I learn to trust
30:58
the church again? Okay. You know? Because I felt this. I heard
31:02
this. They said this. They did this. It's hard for me to trust the church
31:05
again. Mhmm. Because I on a on a on a level, I'm like, because
31:09
you're right. I mean, the church the church did do that. I can't distance
31:13
myself and say, no. No. No. That wasn't our church. That was their church.
31:16
Right. We are more connected than we than we want to be.
31:20
Right. When a when a when a when someone comes to our
31:23
church, having come from another church in another city that did
31:27
some harm to them We're so old. I don't get to say, well, that's not
31:31
us. Right. I can say we're trying to not be like that, but that was
31:34
us. We we we did that. Right. K?
31:38
So that I that argument resonates with me. When we throw
31:42
the Bible into that, and I'm like, man, what the Bible do? K. What
31:45
the Bible do? I mean, this is this made me people may not
31:49
like the way they sound. The Bible was just sitting there. It's not not true.
31:53
I mean, it was I mean, it was it was just it was just it
31:56
was there, and God's truth was
31:59
there, and somebody chose to ignore it and distort
32:02
it and say false and hurtful things. Right. That
32:06
is not that is not the Bible's fault. Someone used to
32:10
be is in fact a also a victim in that crime. I know
32:14
I know the Bible is an inanimate object, so I'm not trying to We can
32:16
personify it. Or we're just yeah. Because it's personification. Right? It's it the Bible's a
32:20
the Bible's a victim. It
32:24
you know, God didn't want his Bible to be used that way. Right.
32:27
He didn't ask for it, but it happened.
32:32
So it is not the Bible that did damage. It is the
32:35
church, maybe a particular church, maybe a particular person,
32:39
maybe a particular approach. And so, really,
32:44
as with most of these things, arrogance,
32:48
pride, control, those are the
32:52
enemies. Right. And they are still the enemies,
32:56
and so we want to be careful in the small c churches
32:59
that we attend and the the leaders that we put ourselves under
33:03
that we're not we don't have peep we're not we're not with people who
33:07
kind of have this kind of reckless authoritarian
33:11
approach to it. Right. I would be I would say lesson learned, I'm gonna
33:14
avoid authoritarian type
33:18
churches with a lot of arrogance and pride. Yes. You you should avoid
33:22
that, but the that's not that's not the same as the
33:26
Bible. Yeah. So I would I would just say, like and, again, just
33:29
because bad people quoted the Bible doesn't mean the
33:33
Bible Is bad. Is bad. So you just need to reengage with
33:36
it and learn it. Right. And kind of doing that teasing out process
33:40
of that was the Bible, not
33:44
or the Bible actually says this. The church said that. It can actually be a
33:47
very healing healing journey to
33:51
come across some of these passages and verses that were used
33:55
and to see them in their appropriate context and what was meant
33:59
when they were written and be like, woah. Woah. That can be
34:03
very clear. Attest to that. Yeah. I mean, just like that, that is that is
34:06
that is beautiful. Right. And then you have that
34:09
experience enough, and I think it can be part of the healing process
34:13
of, I'm no longer, when I'm reading the Bible, I'm no
34:17
longer hearing it in that guy's voice. Right. Right. I'm hearing
34:20
the Holy Spirit's voice. Yeah. Well, we already
34:24
kinda mentioned personification. I feel like the Bible does
34:28
personify the Bible. Okay. They it it talks about itself
34:32
in ways that kind of can seem superhuman and
34:36
confusing. Or it's the Bible is sharper than a double edged sword. It's living and
34:40
active. Or it has the power to renew your
34:44
mind. Or even the way in Psalm
34:47
119, it talks about, like, how does a young man keep his way
34:51
pure by knowing your word and all that type of
34:55
stuff. And then even I think it's in Deuteronomy where it talks about
34:59
putting a signpost on your head and knowing it and putting it on
35:02
your hand. Like, that's a lot of really, like you would never talk about
35:06
just any book like that. You know? I would never just I'm
35:10
gonna disagree with that. Okay. Because I think people do talk about books like that
35:14
all the time. Really? You ever met a Harry Potter person? Okay. Well, the
35:18
I'm no. I'm I'm serious. But do you The way that they talk about
35:22
do they Do they meditate on it? Asking if if Harry
35:26
Potter people put words from the book onto their body. Okay.
35:30
They do. They do. Are you asking is that is that what you're saying? Lord
35:32
of the Rings people? Sure. Narnia people? Yes. I mean, there
35:36
are I mean, now we got a new wave of people reading the Dune books.
35:39
I mean, there's like of of course. I mean, I think that
35:43
if we But do they think the book is living inactive?
35:48
What I'm saying is to believe that a book
35:53
has power to change you. Right. That's not a
35:56
crazy thought. That is not a crazy thought. Yeah.
36:01
Because in the same way that music
36:05
music has a power. Right. But what what
36:08
is the what is the power? What is the power that a book has? What
36:12
is the power that a word has? What is the power specifically that,
36:16
God's word has? And, again, just even in that euphemism that we use to
36:20
describe the Bible, God's word, what we're saying is is that
36:24
these are things that God says. Right. And so if it
36:27
is a truth that comes from the architect of the universe, then, of
36:31
course, the understanding and embracing of that truth is gonna have
36:34
incredible power. Right. In the same way, even a mediocre self
36:38
help book can or a really good leadership book can Right.
36:42
Or a really inspiring fictional story can. Like Harry Potter.
36:46
Like Harry Potter. Right? And so you have you have you have so if
36:50
you take these things that just an inspirational
36:54
story, true or not, or inspirational
36:57
thoughts about leadership or self care or whatever,
37:01
when properly applied, they have the power to do something
37:05
great. If you add to that, that actually the source of these ideas
37:09
is the God of the universe, you would expect there to be a multiplying
37:13
impact to that. Right. So a powerful word has I mean,
37:16
words have the ability to do incredible things.
37:20
We have the ability at any given time, and James talks about this,
37:24
to destroy people with our with our words.
37:28
Right? The words have incredible power. You collect them all together in a
37:31
really big book, they have enormous power Right. Especially if it's well
37:35
written, especially if it has the power and voice of
37:39
God behind it. Right. And so I don't think it is
37:43
too crazy a concept to think
37:47
about a book having a lot of power and authority.
37:51
Right. Whether or not you believe that the Bible is
37:54
God sourced or not Sure. It is true that words have
37:58
that level of power. You put God's sourcing behind it,
38:02
and now its potential is off the charts Right. For what what it has the
38:05
power to do in your life. I I mean, even is it 2nd Timothy that
38:09
says the Bible is unbound? Or is that something else?
38:13
Or the power of salvation? Yes. 2nd Timothy is the one that says that, you
38:17
know, that to teach, rebuke, correct for training in
38:21
righteousness, that you may be thoroughly equipped for everything. That whole
38:24
sermon series. That no matter what good thing
38:29
you may come across in your life that you need to do, the Bible
38:33
has the potential to equip you to do that. Right. Like, I can
38:37
always do right. I have the power to always do
38:40
right if I allow the scriptures to speak
38:44
to me. And, again, the Bible doesn't specifically direct every potential
38:48
situation you could ever find yourself in. Right. It doesn't say anything
38:52
about the Internet. Right? It doesn't say anything about
38:55
dating life. It doesn't say anything about that, but the principles that are involved
38:59
there have the ability to equip you Mhmm. To make
39:02
the right decisions and be the right person in any context. Right.
39:07
So oh, wait. I could just ask you so many more
39:11
questions. I'm sure we're getting close on time. Let's
39:14
talk a little bit about translations. Okay. As you and
39:18
Melanie mentioned that you both grew up on some version that I've never
39:22
heard of before. Correct. But now there's ESV, NIV,
39:26
which, as you know, and I'd be willing to tell anyone in the
39:30
public, I got kind of beef with. You got beef with?
39:34
ESV and NIV. Okay. And as I've said to you, it sounds like I'm reading
39:37
Shakespeare. And let me tell you NIV feels like Shakespeare? I did not
39:41
pass with any flying colors in English in high school. Neither
39:45
did I. Well, I passed. I had good grades, but I hated it. I didn't
39:48
like it. I couldn't do it. So to me, it just sounds super
39:52
confusing. And I can acknowledge that Paul's a great writer,
39:56
but I'm still I don't know why you would structure a sentence like that
40:00
to get me to this point to understand this thing. So I love
40:03
the message. I love the passage train passion translation.
40:07
It gets me the same idea. And so why do
40:11
you suggest certain translations when it's all just
40:14
the same story? We need to be
40:18
careful. We wanna be a little precise by our
40:22
definition of the word translation. Okay. Okay?
40:25
If I take something in one language
40:30
and translate it into another language, I am
40:33
either taking the words or the phrases and say,
40:37
here's this word. What is the equivalent word in English? Right. Here's
40:40
this phrase. What is the equivalent phrase in English? That is
40:44
what a translation is. What was the Bible
40:48
originally translated to? Okay. That's a different question. Let's let's
40:51
let's let's finish let's finish let's finish this thought.
40:56
You you get something more like the message, and it's really
41:00
not it's really closer to what what would you call a
41:03
commentary. Okay. I'm I'm I'm I'm gonna take these
41:07
ideas and put them in even more common words.
41:11
And so it's almost like when you read something like The Message,
41:15
you're getting not only the translation into English, but you're also just kind of
41:19
getting his summary of what he thinks it means. Mhmm.
41:23
So the more direct a translation is, the
41:26
more complicated the wording might be, but the more accurate it is
41:30
to what the author meant when he wrote it. Okay. So
41:34
when you read the message, you're not simply learning how to trust
41:38
the Bible, but you're also figuring out how much can I trust Eugene Peterson
41:42
as a person, and it is great to love Eugene Peterson?
41:46
I don't have any particular beef with Eugene Peterson and
41:49
his approach. He and I don't necessarily agree on everything,
41:53
but I'm not trying to beef with him. But it
41:57
is it is the equivalent of
42:00
listening to a sermon about the Bible closer to listening to a sermon about
42:04
the Bible than reading the Bible per se. Okay.
42:08
And so,
42:12
again, that's it's not a bad thing. The the word that I was looking
42:15
for earlier and I couldn't find is paraphrase. It's more of a paraphrase. Right. Okay.
42:18
It's different than a translation. Yeah. And so I think it's important to
42:22
study translations. We can
42:26
read a paraphrase, but we study translations. And you're saying
42:30
that because that gets us as close to basically reading Paul's original letter. Well, it's
42:32
it's it's it's a group of really intelligent people who
42:41
and putting those words and phrases into the best possible English
42:44
words and phrases so that we can really understand what Paul meant
42:48
because I don't read Greek. Right. And so are
42:52
NIV and ESV the only ones in that category? No. There are other almost
42:56
everything that you're gonna find apart from things like, thing things
42:59
like the messengers, thing called the what was it? The good
43:03
news bible growing up. I mean, there's there's sorts of things that they would say.
43:06
They'll say that they're paraphrases. Okay. But most of them are most of these, you
43:10
know, NAS, King James, New King
43:14
James, all of these things are going to be
43:19
our translations. And you can look and you can discover kind of what
43:23
the principles were that the different groups of people use to decide how they
43:27
were gonna translate. So somebody who was gonna look at each Greek word
43:30
and try to make an equivalent English word,
43:35
that's gonna be more precise, but also more cumbersome.
43:39
But it's like, hey. I'm not gonna look at a word. I'm gonna look at
43:41
a phrase that's gonna be less precise and more user friendly. Mhmm. So you're
43:45
gonna get everything from the
43:48
the King James to New King James to NAS to
43:52
ESV to NIV to NLT, and there's just gonna there's
43:56
a there's a spectrum there from how precise the
43:59
translation is, but then there also comes a point where I'm not
44:03
translating word for word or phrase for phrase or sentence by
44:06
sentence. I'm really just paraphrasing. And at the at the point at
44:10
which we cross the line, I'm not saying that there's anything dangerous about that. Right.
44:14
But it's just it's just different and should just be treated with a little more,
44:17
hey. I'm I'm reading what this dude thinks the Bible says Right. Not
44:21
what the text said when it was written as close as we can
44:25
understand it in my language. Right. Right.
44:29
I'm getting used to NIV. Okay. We're growing in it. Perfect. It's
44:32
just a little bit confusing. Yep. I get it. So
44:36
what are some of your favorite resources that you would say
44:40
someone could look into when they're trying to study the Bible? Maybe for
44:44
the first time or they've been doing it for a while, but these are just
44:47
some go to things for you to understand when you're con or find answers
44:50
when you're confused about what you're reading.
44:56
Man, I just just read it. I just know it. No. Just
45:00
read it. Just read it. Just read it with people that you trust. Yeah.
45:05
And, there there are plenty of resources out there
45:09
in, you know, commentaries and these kinds of things. And I
45:12
like, I'm I'm hesitant kind of, like, to recommend one of them. Mhmm. I mean,
45:16
I'll get you get you an you get the NIV study bible,
45:20
it'll be it'll be fine with the things that they're saying there will be will
45:23
be really good, and you and you and you'll learn plenty.
45:26
But, also, don't I hesitate to recommend things like that because, again,
45:30
I don't want you to believe that there's a gap between you and
45:34
God's word. I like that. I don't want you to believe that. Yeah.
45:38
But, ultimately, I get into this, and I'm kind of piddling around in the
45:41
shallow end. It's like, I don't think that I'm understanding this well.
45:45
Right. Then make sure that you're doing this with some people, and, collectively, we
45:49
can. And then let's talk about commentaries or study
45:52
Bibles or those kinds of things. And so I'm I mean,
45:56
I know that's not the answer you asked for, but No. I appreciate that,
46:00
though. What what what would I recommend? Pass. Pass.
46:03
Okay. I like that. I mean, it's definitely helpful to think
46:07
through if you're just now starting, maybe your next step
46:11
is how can I find a few people to read the Bible with? Right. And
46:14
to start with the most user friendly ones And, yeah, and you said John. That
46:18
was one of my questions. Questions. Start start with the gospel of John. It's very
46:21
it's very straightforward. It's written simply for first
46:25
yep. And then I would read then read the other gospels, read the book of
46:28
Acts, and then slowly try to work your way through some of
46:32
Paul's letters. And, again, I think you will get
46:37
a a an initial understanding of that. That'll be really helpful, and I'm
46:40
I'm I'm still a part of a church. I am I'm in a in a
46:43
small group with some other people where we're studying it together
46:48
and stay connected to God's community. You don't you you,
46:52
yes, stay connected with God's community. You have the the ability to
46:57
read and understand the Bible yourself. Right.
47:01
So any other thoughts on why the Bible is awesome?
47:05
I mean, the I'll I just love that
47:09
word from 2nd Timothy 3. Mhmm. It's a made up word that Paul made up
47:13
made up a maybe, like, the first person that decided, what should we call this
47:16
place where we wash our cars? Right. Right. We call it car wash. I
47:19
mean, somebody made up that word, and his word, theo nistos, is a made up
47:23
word, God breathed, and just really
47:26
strongly suggests both the source of where it came from,
47:30
and also you just can't help but make a mental, emotional
47:34
connection to what God did in Adam to
47:38
give life to him, that it's not it's sourced from him, and the
47:42
breath of God carries life. Yeah. And so this comes
47:45
from God, and it has therefore, it has life in
47:49
it. That's where I can find life. God put his
47:53
life into it, and so I can find life from God
47:57
through it. I
48:00
I just really think that if we overcome some of these stereotypes
48:04
and misconceptions that we have from the past about what God's word is,
48:08
I think we will be pleasantly surprised what we'll
48:12
see God do. Yeah. And the way Mel Melanie,
48:16
as we learned, talks about it with it truly
48:19
transforming her and which made me think about the personification of the bible, that
48:23
it can sound kind of crazy, but you see evidence in people's lives that once
48:27
they started to intake the Bible, there's actually noticeable
48:30
Yeah. Growth and change and healing that happens
48:34
just from reading an ancient text. Well, you killed it
48:38
again. Oh, thanks. Good job. Those great questions. I know you probably got 50 more
48:41
on there. We did uncover that. I know we didn't. Hey, and I hope you
48:45
enjoyed it too. I hope you enjoyed, Abigail last time just kinda talking
48:48
and reflecting, and I really do hope that you will spend some time, get the
48:52
courage, and spend some time reading and studying God's word for yourself.
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And as always, thanks for joining us with the Cultivate podcast.
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Would love to connect with you on a Sunday morning. If you're not connected, you
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can find everything about us at the grovechurch.org/connect.
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And I'm Charlie Lofton, lead pastor here. Abigail Boone,
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thank you so much for joining us.