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Starmer ousted: Why the British government is in turmoil · The Morning Edition

0:07
S1: After months of criticism and two significant scandals, Sir Keir
0:12
S1: Starmer has resigned as British prime minister. So why is
0:16
S1: the country on the precipice of voting in a seventh
0:19
S1: prime minister in only ten years? I'm Samantha Zellinger Maurice,
0:25
S1: and you're listening to The Morning Edition from The Age
0:28
S1: and The Sydney Morning Herald. Today, Europe correspondent David Crowe
0:33
S1: on Keir Starmers drastic fall and on Andy Burnham, the
0:38
S1: unconventional politician who's expected to take his place. David Crowe,
0:48
S1: welcome back to the podcast.
0:50
S2: It's so good to be back on the podcast, Sam.
0:52
S2: Good to talk to you.
0:53
S1: We are so lucky you're there because as we are
0:55
S1: recording this on Tuesday morning, Australian time, UK Prime Minister
0:59
S1: Keir Starmer, of course, has announced his resignation to make
1:03
S1: way for a new leader of the Labour Party. So
1:05
S1: why has he resigned? What happened? Because Keir Starmer won
1:09
S1: an election landslide only two years ago.
1:12
S2: Yes, it is quite amazing. The thing is that the
1:16
S2: spill has been happening in slow motion here for so long,
1:21
S2: even though they won in a landslide two years ago.
1:23
S2: The last year has been characterised by incessant complaining about
1:29
S2: Keir Starmer, and that comes down to a couple of factors.
1:33
S2: His performance has not been good. He is not a
1:36
S2: natural politician. He hasn't been great at it and voters
1:40
S2: are fed up with him. He's got poor polling. He
1:44
S2: was just incredibly unpopular and that's been happening for a while. 69%
1:50
S2: unfavorable in terms of voter responses on Keir Starmer, 23% favourable.
1:56
S2: That's a net 46%. So that's quite astonishing. I mean,
2:01
S2: all politicians here are are disliked generally in those results,
2:06
S2: but his levels are just something else. And people have
2:08
S2: been feeling that on the street when MPs have been
2:11
S2: going for election, they had council elections here in early May.
2:15
S2: This was a pivotal test and they lost hundreds of
2:18
S2: local government councillors.
2:20
S3: Labour has suffered huge losses after millions of people went
2:24
S3: to the polls in England and Wales.
2:25
S4: Just look at the Labour Party. So Labour down all
2:29
S4: the way there.
2:30
S5: 130 Labour horror show got worse overnight and today now down.
2:35
S5: Almost 40 councils in England, obliterated in Wales and squeezed
2:39
S5: in Scotland by the Prime Minister.
2:41
S2: That election became a protest vote against Keir Starmer and
2:45
S2: he hasn't been able to recover.
2:53
S1: And so tell us, why was his polling so bad?
2:55
S1: Was much of that to do with the scandals that
2:58
S1: he faced among them. There was, of course, the link
3:00
S1: to the Epstein files. You can tell us about that.
3:02
S1: What was it?
3:03
S2: He certainly lost a lot of ground because of that
3:07
S2: appointment of Peter Mandelson, an old Labour insider who was
3:12
S2: a mate of Jeffrey Epstein, and they knew he was
3:15
S2: a mate of Jeffrey Epstein. But they appointed Mandelson to
3:19
S2: be the ambassador to Washington, D.C. they thought that they
3:23
S2: would send a snake to deal with Donald Trump, and
3:26
S2: that rebounded on Keir Starmer. What really happened with that
3:30
S2: was months and months of negative media for Starmer, when
3:35
S2: he was already unpopular.
3:37
S6: Because he was warned by his officials, he was warned
3:40
S6: by his advisers. He was warned by other people. He
3:43
S6: was warned in the checking process. He didn't do the
3:46
S6: vetting because he didn't care what the vetting said. He'd
3:49
S6: made his decision to appoint Peter Mandelson and now he's
3:52
S6: blaming someone else.
4:04
S2: And it just bashed them around and they couldn't stay
4:07
S2: focused on what they were meant to be doing as
4:09
S2: a government. And so he looked even more out of
4:12
S2: touch to ordinary voters because he wasn't dealing with the
4:15
S2: things that really mattered to them because he was so
4:19
S2: consumed with this Mandelson scandal.
4:23
S7: And you mentioned.
4:24
S1: Just before that he wasn't a natural politician, Keir Starmer,
4:27
S1: he was famously wooden. When he speaks. He's not known
4:30
S1: to be very charismatic, to say the very least. So
4:33
S1: I guess tell us about the man who's predicted to
4:35
S1: replace him. This is Andy Burnham, because I believe many
4:38
S1: think he's the opposite, but he was sworn in as
4:41
S1: an MP, which is a requirement in Britain. Only a
4:44
S1: member of Parliament can become prime minister. And this happened
4:46
S1: only hours after Keir Starmer announced his resignation. I mean,
4:50
S1: that's pretty amazing. Yes.
4:52
S2: This is why I'm thinking Andy Burnham has the makings
4:55
S2: of a very interesting prime minister. But I'm not on
4:59
S2: the Burnham bandwagon, you might say, because I'm not convinced
5:02
S2: that it's all going to work. I've seen so many
5:04
S2: spills 20 years in Canberra. I saw this time and
5:07
S2: time again you get enthusiastic. You see this media enthusiasm
5:12
S2: for a new prime minister. A couple of months later,
5:16
S2: the public turns against them and they start making mistakes.
5:19
S2: So I don't think that he's, you know, the Messiah.
5:23
S2: We'll get to that later. He's got a good joke
5:25
S2: about that, but he does have something going for him.
5:28
S2: He's a straight talker. He's a good communicator. He's from
5:32
S2: the North and labor needs to win the North. When
5:34
S2: he won his seat of Makerfield last week, he defeated
5:39
S2: reform UK, the big right wing party led by Nigel
5:42
S2: Farage that is leading in the polls. So he looks
5:46
S2: to Labour like he is their answer. He can fight
5:49
S2: the right and win. What else do we know about him?
5:53
S2: I mean, he's he was a minister in Westminster. He
5:56
S2: became the mayor of Greater Manchester. There's nothing there that
6:00
S2: tells you he can lead a country of the size
6:03
S2: of Great Britain. But Labor's decided that he's their guy.
6:08
S2: He's a middle class kid from the north. He went
6:11
S2: to Cambridge University, he studied English literature. He has said
6:16
S2: to people and they've reported it, they believe it. He's
6:18
S2: read every Shakespeare play. He's a reader of poetry and
6:23
S2: he likes Philip Larkin. This is not somebody who is
6:26
S2: sort of a working class kid from the North in
6:28
S2: the old style of labour. However, he's got the Labour
6:32
S2: parliamentary party right behind him now.
6:35
S1: Interesting, though, because he did run twice for the leadership
6:37
S1: of the Labour Party in 2010 and 2015 and lost
6:41
S1: quite badly each time. That's a bit of an interesting
6:44
S1: back story, I think. And I think he wants a
6:48
S1: high tax, high spend economy. Right. He wants to tax
6:50
S1: the rich and fund social housing. Are those amongst his
6:54
S1: sort of cornerstone policy proposals?
6:56
S2: That's where he's been over time. And I think that
6:59
S2: that's part of his appeal within Labour. Now they won
7:04
S2: the 2024 election by telling people that they would be centrists,
7:10
S2: and that they had an economic manifesto, that it was
7:13
S2: going to, you know, deliver growth. A lot of the
7:16
S2: MPs who were elected are of the left. They're naturally
7:20
S2: drawn to Andy Burnham because he has this history of
7:23
S2: being fairly leftist with his views, but I don't think
7:27
S2: he's going to be able to do that. I mean,
7:29
S2: they've got huge constraints on them in government. They have
7:32
S2: got a debt of £2.8 trillion. That's heading to 3 trillion.
7:37
S2: The bond markets are jittery about the government's lending. So
7:41
S2: he cannot come in and say, oh, welfare payments will
7:45
S2: increase those or taxes on the rich. Here they go.
7:49
S2: Let's let rip. There are going to be a lot
7:52
S2: of constraints on how he gets things done, and I
7:55
S2: think that's going to disappoint people on the left because
7:57
S2: that is inevitable. We see that time and time again
8:00
S2: when something like this happens, people on the left think
8:03
S2: they've got a champion, a hero, and then they're disappointed
8:06
S2: because not all things are achievable. That, I think, is
8:09
S2: going to be the Andy Burnham story.
8:13
S1: After the break.
8:15
S2: And that's why they're shifting to Farage. And that's why
8:18
S2: Labour has had a terrible time trying to come up
8:21
S2: with an answer.
8:36
S7: Okay, well, this brings.
8:36
S1: Us very neatly to the next question, which is then
8:39
S1: why Andy Burnham? You know, you wrote that Labour, in
8:42
S1: its desperation, have turned to an outsider. So tell us,
8:45
S1: I guess, a bit more about what's happening in UK
8:47
S1: politics right now that they are very likely to choose
8:49
S1: this man as the next leader of the Labour Party
8:52
S1: and therefore the Prime Minister.
8:54
S2: Yes, by the way, we should really be cautious and
8:56
S2: say they're very likely to choose him. But at the
8:59
S2: moment there is no challenger to him. Starmer has announced
9:03
S2: he's going. Andy Burnham has put up his hand. One
9:06
S2: of the other challengers who might have put up his hand,
9:09
S2: Wes Streeting, former health secretary, has decided not to enter
9:13
S2: the race and is backing Burnham and is probably going
9:15
S2: to get a cabinet ministry. I think he would be
9:18
S2: a very natural choice as Chancellor of the Exchequer, but
9:21
S2: let's see how that goes. So Andy Burnham is at
9:25
S2: the moment the only contender, but it's still not going
9:28
S2: to be done and dusted until July and August. I
9:32
S2: think what he has and what a lot of people
9:35
S2: say he's got, is that he's authentic. And in current
9:40
S2: British politics, voters have turned against people because they've been
9:44
S2: so disappointed with their leaders. Is. And so if labor
9:47
S2: has a chance with a more authentic leader to win
9:51
S2: those people back. Well, it's really their last chance. The
9:55
S2: election's not till 2029, and they've got a big majority.
9:58
S2: So they can see that out unless there's a major crisis.
10:02
S2: But they really need to lift their game. And that's
10:05
S2: why they're turning to this authentic leader from the north
10:07
S2: to try and reconnect with ordinary voters. But let's face it,
10:11
S2: the last ten years, six prime ministers already, they're now
10:14
S2: having their seventh prime minister in ten years. And that's
10:17
S2: the ten years since the Brexit vote. Now, I don't
10:20
S2: think it's all about Brexit, but I do think that
10:23
S2: Brexit has shaped British politics as we see it today.
10:28
S2: And one of the big things, whether you are for
10:30
S2: it or against it, one of the big things that
10:32
S2: I think is undeniable is that it did not deliver
10:36
S2: this great future that was talked about in 2016 when
10:41
S2: people went to the referendum. It didn't deliver a lot
10:45
S2: of the things that people thought they were going to
10:47
S2: get when they chose Brexit by 52% to 48%, they
10:52
S2: were told the only way to curb migration is to
10:57
S2: break from the European Union. Boris Johnson told that he
11:01
S2: became prime minister and then after the pandemic, migration went
11:04
S2: through the roof. Now, whether you're for it or against it,
11:07
S2: you can see, you know, that that is basically a
11:11
S2: broken pledge to the British public. Get Brexit will control migration.
11:16
S2: It didn't happen. It was a I call it the
11:19
S2: betrayal of Brexit. Now, I don't think that Andy Burnham's
11:22
S2: got a solution yet to that problem. But these things
11:25
S2: are what's driving what are driving the shift to the right.
11:30
S2: The shift to Nigel Farage and to reform Farage was pro-Brexit.
11:35
S2: Brexit hasn't delivered, but that hasn't hurt Farage in a
11:38
S2: funny kind of way because he is blaming the implementation
11:42
S2: of Brexit, saying Boris Johnson got it wrong. It's all
11:44
S2: Boris Johnson's fault. Choose me and I'll fix it. I
11:48
S2: really will fix it. And I think we shouldn't, um,
11:53
S2: sort of dance around this topic. We shouldn't overanalyze it
11:56
S2: in a way. A lot of the British public want
11:59
S2: migration controlled. They don't see it being controlled in the
12:02
S2: way they want, and they're looking for other people to
12:05
S2: do it. And that's why they're shifting to Farage. And
12:08
S2: that's why Labour has had a terrible time trying to
12:11
S2: come up with an answer.
12:13
S1: Which is a really interesting backdrop for what Andy Burnham
12:16
S1: will have to face if he does, as we do
12:18
S1: expect to take the job as prime minister. And there's
12:22
S1: other challenges he's got, right, because whoever takes over from
12:24
S1: Starmer is going to need to confront the ongoing war
12:26
S1: in Ukraine, instability in the Middle East, a rising China
12:30
S1: and a US that is pulling back from decades long
12:32
S1: commitments to Europe and to NATO. So what's the feeling
12:37
S1: on the ground there where you are in London? Like,
12:40
S1: is Andy Burnham up to that task?
12:42
S2: I think it's a huge question mark, and I don't
12:44
S2: think he's proven he's up to that task. Keir Starmer
12:48
S2: was getting net migration down but was not able to
12:51
S2: stop boats coming across the English Channel. A thousand people
12:55
S2: came on boats last week, so that's a major challenge
12:58
S2: and we don't see that. Andy Burnham has got a
13:00
S2: different answer to that. There's a growth challenge, there's a
13:03
S2: housing challenge, there's a tax challenge. There's a huge budget
13:06
S2: challenge because they're in deficit. We haven't heard yet from
13:10
S2: Andy Burnham what he would do to answer any of those.
13:13
S2: He does talk a lot about housing, and that's a
13:15
S2: natural thing for him to focus on. It's important for
13:18
S2: the left of labour, but it's also something that's so
13:21
S2: important for everyday people because of the cost of housing
13:25
S2: in this country. But he hasn't even needed to flesh
13:28
S2: out an agenda as an alternative leader. And that, I think,
13:33
S2: is an interesting thing about why he's so good as
13:35
S2: a politician. The media has done a lot of this
13:38
S2: for him. Chipped away at Keir Starmer. There's been a
13:41
S2: solid group of Burnham advocates for the last year talking
13:46
S2: to the media, talking him up and talking Starmer down,
13:50
S2: and now we see the results. He is an incredibly
13:54
S2: sharp political operator. What we don't know about him is
13:59
S2: whether he's got a policy agenda that's going to fix Britain.
14:03
S7: I mean, it is quite astonishing.
14:04
S1: And as you've mentioned, you know, assuming he does get
14:06
S1: the job, he will be the seventh prime minister in
14:08
S1: ten years. I mean, that's even worse than our Rudd-gillard-rudd
14:13
S1: era years when there was five PM's in ten years here.
14:17
S1: And I've seen some analysis that suggests that this rotation
14:20
S1: of prime ministers in the UK is actually likely to continue,
14:23
S1: no matter what Andy Burnham sort of puts forward, because
14:26
S1: as you mentioned, with Brexit ten years ago, you know,
14:29
S1: British prime ministers, I've read they entered the job with hope.
14:32
S1: But then this mixture of continued poor economic growth, political
14:36
S1: chaos just undoes them. So what's what's your feeling? Crowley
14:41
S1: what's the feeling in Britain there? But Andy Burnham you
14:43
S1: know that he'll similarly be churned out or is he
14:46
S1: going to be the the stayer?
14:48
S2: I don't know whether he'll be the stayer. I think
14:50
S2: it's impossible to tell at this point. I mean, I've
14:54
S2: read some very flowery profiles of him in the British media,
14:58
S2: so I think he's obviously got a a part of
15:01
S2: the British media behind him. But that doesn't last. You know,
15:04
S2: that's only because he's the he's the non-starter candidate. And
15:07
S2: everybody wanted to tear down Starmer. And he was the
15:10
S2: he was the way to do it. It won't last.
15:14
S2: The only way it's going to change here is if
15:16
S2: they do what Australia did. I've been saying to people here,
15:20
S2: if you want to improve your political performance, get your
15:24
S2: MPs on a plane to Australia and figure out how
15:28
S2: Australia stopped the leadership spill cycle. There are some core
15:34
S2: lessons that they've got to learn. They need a political
15:37
S2: leader who is cautious and cunning. Starmer was cautious. He
15:42
S2: wasn't cunning. He did not have political smarts. I think
15:46
S2: Andy Burnham has the signs of having that cunning way
15:51
S2: of working. I think Anthony Albanese has that caution and cunning.
15:56
S2: I think that he has basically been brought stability to
16:00
S2: the government, but he's only been able to do that
16:04
S2: because he's had stable cabinet ministers who haven't panicked, and
16:08
S2: he has had a caucus that's been disciplined. And clearly
16:12
S2: in the UK they don't have those factors either. They've
16:15
S2: got cabinet ministers who whinge and whine about their prime
16:19
S2: minister to the media to talk themselves up, therefore talking
16:23
S2: the whole government down. That's incessant in the UK. They
16:28
S2: also have panicky MPs in Parliament who are relatively new,
16:34
S2: and they're the party of government and they don't know
16:36
S2: how to do it. The way you do it is
16:38
S2: to hold your nerve and to be disciplined and to
16:42
S2: support strong government policy, even when it's tough. They were
16:47
S2: not able to do that. What's happened on Monday is
16:51
S2: damning of Labour in the UK.
16:53
S8: Every decision I've taken has been about putting the country
16:57
S8: I love first. That is why I will resign as
17:02
S8: leader of the Labour Party.
17:04
S9: That's an emotional Sir Keir Starmer announcing his resignation as
17:08
S9: prime minister of the United Kingdom. But why is he going.
17:12
S2: If they don't learn that? It's a reflection on all
17:14
S2: of them, not just on Keir Starmer? They won't be
17:18
S2: any better. So let's see if they can learn those lessons.
17:23
S2: Then they'll break the cycle in the way that Australia
17:25
S2: break the cycle.
17:27
S7: And crow we just to wrap up then I guess.
17:29
S1: Are there any takeaways here for our own politicians? And
17:33
S1: I wonder, are they perhaps looking on nervously. Given our
17:36
S1: entwined relationship with Britain in particular over Aukus.
17:39
S2: I think that Burnham will support Aukus. And I think that, um,
17:43
S2: it's so important to both countries that it's essential to
17:47
S2: support it. I know that there are a lot of
17:48
S2: critics of Aukus people think it's not going to deliver.
17:51
S2: I think there are huge question marks about whether it
17:53
S2: can deliver, but at the moment, the UK absolutely needs
17:59
S2: a new fleet of attack submarines. They've got to control
18:02
S2: their northern waters from Russia. So they need the new
18:07
S2: design that they're sharing with us. We need it. Also,
18:11
S2: there is a joint interest in getting it done. Even
18:14
S2: a left wing leader like Andy Burnham will know that.
18:17
S1: Well, thank you so much, David, for your time.
18:20
S2: It's great to talk.
18:34
S1: In other news, today, a new party of teal independents
18:37
S1: is poised to be announced to counter the rise of
18:40
S1: One Nation. Labor will water down some of its National
18:43
S1: Disability Insurance Scheme proposals in exchange for support from the
18:47
S1: Greens for the government's tax overhaul. And Australian Palestinian academic
18:52
S1: Randa Abdel-Fattah discipline has been shortlisted for the prestigious Miles
18:57
S1: Franklin Literary Award. You can read more at the age.com.au
19:02
S1: or smh.com.au. Today's episode was produced by Kai Wong. Our
19:09
S1: executive producer is Tammy Mills, and our podcasts are overseen
19:12
S1: by Lisa Muxworthy and Tom McKendrick. If you like our show,
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