Latest / ChildCare Conversations / 341: The Greatest Secrets from a Former State Licensing Consultant With Ronnae Williams

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341: The Greatest Secrets from a Former State Licensing Consultant With Ronnae Williams · ChildCare Conversations

• 0:01
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to Childcare Conversations, the podcast where early childhood leaders like you get real-world strategies, honest talk, and a whole lot of support.
• 0:12
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• 0:18
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• 0:21
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• 0:32
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• 0:35
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• 0:40
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• 0:45
  SPEAKER_00: Now, let's get into today's conversation.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_00: One we think you're really going to love.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, so we all have had a licensing inspection or two or three that stick in our memories as either, oh my gosh, that was torture, or what an amazing licensing rep.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_03: Why can't they all be like this?
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_03: And so we have brought one of those amazing people.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so Renee Williams, also known to many people as the state lady, because she used to be that licensor coming into her program.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_03: She's here to share a little bit of wisdom and hopefully help you deal with your licensing reps in a way that gives you a little bit more freedom and support and um less terror.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_03: Because I do know a couple people who are terrified when their licensing rep shows up.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_02: It's just the clipboard.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_02: They they bring out the clipboard and have all the staff go, ah, it's a clipboard.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_02: Uh so why don't you start by telling us a little bit about your background, how you ended up as the state lady.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_02: Okay and because I know you didn't start and only go there.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_01: So hi everybody.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_01: My name is Renee, and I'm a former licensing consultant for the state of Georgia.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_01: I got my bachelor's from Georgia Southern, which is um in child and family development, and we actually had a lab school on campus.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_01: I was torn between being a childlife specialist or just something with children.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_01: I wasn't sure which direction I was going, but I knew that I wanted to work with children.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_01: And I knew that I liked the classroom, but I just knew I didn't want to be there all day.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I graduated and I became a Georgia pre-K teacher.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_01: So I was in my classroom all day, but I still had that desire to do more.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_01: So I would help with after-school program, I would answer the phones, I would do so many different things, and I eventually got promoted from within.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_01: So I went from Georgia pre-K teacher to assistant director.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_01: While I was the assistant director, I promise you I had more state visits than I had all my years in a classroom combined.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_01: The state was in my building, no lie, at least once a month.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um, the program that I was at, if you're familiar with Atlanta, it was just in an area that was very transient.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_01: It was near the highway.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_01: It was literally like one corner were million-dollar homes, and the other corner was like affordable housing.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_01: It was just and it was on the bus line, but it it the other half of the street didn't have the bus line.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_01: Like it was just a crazy space.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_01: And so between the stack that we hired.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, so I just have to say, Atlantis just kind of crazy anyway.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_02: If you drive Atlanta, and I don't know what what's up with all of the lawyer billboards.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_02: This is a totally side topic, but every other mile, there is a billboard for an attorney to sue somebody for an accident.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_02: And I was like, Do I really want to drive here?
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_02: So um, I don't think that has anything to do with your licensing rep, but I got a question for you.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_02: When you got promoted from pre-K teacher to administrator, was it because you had this great early childhood degree, or did they give you some additional training to do that job?
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_01: It was a combination.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_01: So the degree helped, and I was enrolled in getting my master's.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_01: So the education did help.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_01: But I also remember I was when my classroom released with Georgia Pre-K, we were out by like 2:15, 2:30.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, I was answering phones.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_01: I was in the front.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_01: Like I was in the front in everybody's business.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_01: Or I would be in my room, and my room just had so much going on.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_01: I was constantly changing my door, constantly going above and beyond with curriculum.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_01: So other teachers would come into my room for questions and support as well.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_01: So it was like I was kind of the unofficial helper, even though I wasn't paid to be anybody's boss or helper.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_01: And eventually the role just kind of got stacked.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_01: And when the position became available for assistant director, my name was brought up.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_01: Awesome.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_02: That is that is great.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it's good to hear how other folks get to those leadership roles.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_02: And it sounds like you were maybe intentionally or not intentionally positioning yourself to move up.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_02: Where some folks they could be an assistant director for decades because that's where they want to stay.
• 5:21
  unknown: Yeah.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_01: And they don't want to go anywhere.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_01: Like the classroom, though.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_01: Like I like, I realized I was a leader, but I liked being in a classroom.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_01: I think back in the day, if we had curriculum coordinator, like back in the day, that would have been my jam.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_01: That would have been my jam because you're not really writing people up, but you're more so documenting where their room may be a little deficient in lesson planning or materials or whatever.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_01: Like you're, I'm a project leader.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_01: I am not the person who writes you up for like coming late.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_01: That was not my I if you were late, I did not care because I always knew I was gonna ask you to stay later.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_01: I just felt so bad when I'm like, oh, I just got on her for being 10 minutes late, but she closed for me yesterday, you know?
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_01: Like, but I get it.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_01: Miss Miss Kathy probably had to get off at two o'clock on the dot, and it was a bad thing that Miss Barbara was coming in late.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_01: I get it.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_01: But I just always felt so bad getting on my team about time.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_02: And I just have to giggle.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_02: So I just have to giggle with your name choices.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know if those are real people, but because my old teachers follow me, they still exist.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_02: But here's why I want to be my mother's name is Barbara, and I she calls me Kathy because that was the name I went by as a kid.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_02: And my mother's not late for nothing.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_03: Like, no way.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_03: Like she would want to be off exactly at 2 p.m.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_02: if that is what you told her.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_02: I was like, I I just have to like I'm not that my mother listens to our podcast.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_02: I don't think she's listened to one in 330 episodes.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_02: But my mom doesn't listen to mine either.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_02: It's a I think that I think it's kind of funny.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_02: So I just have to sorry, that was again totally not on topic.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_02: So hopefully those who are listening today are going, what are they talking about?
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_02: So let's talk about what we brought you here for.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_02: Because we're six minutes in and we've talked about six minutes of a whole lot of everything but.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_02: So, folks who are listening, directors, owners, they're listening and they're like, okay, it's somebody wanting to talk about the licensing people.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_02: Tell us what's your secret?
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_02: Like, how should folks think of their licensing reps?
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_01: You should honestly look at it as a person that is coming to help your school or your program or whatever we're calling it these days.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_01: It is a person that is coming in to help you.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_01: It is a fresh set of eyes, and they're seeing things.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_01: And even when they question the things that they see, it's not personal.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_01: They want to understand what they're seeing.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_01: Childcare looks different as you move up the street.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_01: What is used as an enrichment tool may be broken at a.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I'm trying to think of a good example, but what looks like one thing at one school, if you put it in another school, it may not look like the same thing or it may not be used the same way.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_01: And so don't always be so defensive if someone's questioning you, questioning you.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_01: They're really just trying to understand what they're looking at so that they can be objective while reviewing you.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_01: And I also say, look at the inspection for what it is.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_01: It is someone coming to your program looking for a rule violation.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_01: It's not they're looking for something wrong, right?
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_01: If that's the attitude you want to have about it, that's a you problem.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_01: But they are looking for rule violations.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_01: It is not the praise time.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_01: It is not, if you get a praise, that is great.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_01: But your consultant is not looking to praise you when they come in.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_01: Again, if they get a chance to praise you, and most do, because that makes the visit more smooth.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_01: And it's honestly just a better mind frame to talk about the positive as well as the negative.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_01: But know that it is a review of possible rule violations, and that's what they're looking for.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_02: So how can so those folks who stress out every time they they pull in the driveway?
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_02: What is a way to shift that mindset?
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_02: I think you covered part of it, but what are some other things that they can do to be proactive?
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, because Carrie and I've met these directors, right?
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_02: These owners who are like totally wigged out.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_02: Like I said, the codeboard comes out, that they pull in the driveway, there's a lot of anxiety.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_02: What might be a really kind of a tip for them as far as that mindset shift, what they could do proactively to change that relationship with their licensing rep?
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_01: I think first things first, when we go to restaurants and we look at that health score, we are grateful that someone is checking on our food.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_01: We are grateful for those people.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_01: If you go somewhere and you see they got a 79 or 64, you're like, well, not eating there.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_01: We're not like, oh, they were really trying.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_01: They had the best French fries.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_01: No, they did not do what was needed to have a safe environment.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_01: Keep that energy inside of your program.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_01: When people come into your program, they're looking to see and ensure a place is safe for children.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_01: Unfortunately, like with a food bug, in most cases, you get over it.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_01: If something happens to a child, a lot of times people never get over it.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_01: Whether it's a scratch or a bump or a broken bone, those are things that will carry with that family for forever.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_01: So I think a lot of it is adjusting our mindset.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_01: We understand that people are trying hard every day.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_01: Childcare, everyone says it's harder now.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's always been hard.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_01: I think we just have new problems.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_01: And I think we now have a space to vent.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_01: And now, because we hear so many other people's problems, we just feel like we have a ton of problems when half of the problems that we hear about aren't our problems or other people's problems.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_01: Another conversation, right?
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_01: But I think we all can hear other people's problems and we feel overwhelmed by it.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_01: Childcare has always been hard.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_01: We've always had one issue or the other.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_01: And I think when we adjust our mindset to remember, this I mean, nothing against the men, but this is a women's based industry.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_01: We always make it.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_01: We always make it, we always overcome it, we always fight through it.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_01: And I think we have to remember that new rules, those help us to protect children.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_01: If a new rule came along, something happened, and that's why they made the new rule.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_01: If you find that you're struggling in a certain area, think of it as I really need to start training more in that area.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_01: I think it really is a mindset shift in regards to childcare and just what overwhelms us about licensing is part of the business.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_01: Two times off the year, someone is coming to my program to look at it and they're looking for things that are wrong.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_01: If we carry that mindset all year long and we're constantly preparing, not the week before we when we think state's coming, right?
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_01: When the spirit leads us to believe that state is coming, if we constantly work on compliance, work on compliance, work on compliance, just as heavily as we work on enrollment and work on marketing, if we kept those three things a priority, right?
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_01: Then the visit wouldn't be so stressful because you've been through the process of making compliance something that you're thinking about.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_01: But a lot of people don't think about compliance until they get cited or someone gets hurt or something like that happens.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_03: You don't want to be the reason that for what I call one of the ways that standards change is because somebody did a dumb thing.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_03: You don't want to be the reason that there's a new dumb thing rule in licensing.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_03: Because somebody in the state of Texas put something spicy in a kid's mouth.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_03: And so now it's in minimum standards that you cannot use food as a form of punishment.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_03: Discipline.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_03: It is in somebody did a dumb thing.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_03: And now we all have to learn about this because the rest of us are going, who is putting jalapenos in children's mouths?
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_03: And the answer is, I don't know, but somebody did it, and now we have it in standards.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_02: And that's I mean, it's how we end up with all those stickers on a on a on a on a ladder, and how we end up with, you know, notices on your coffee cup that your coffee cup could be hot.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_02: Uh like I don't want like if I'm buying cold coffee, I wanted iced coffee.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_02: Otherwise, I do want it hot.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_02: But so, okay, I just have to ask, because I'm sure you've got some.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_02: What are some of the silliest things you've ever heard a state have as a a requirement in licensing or minimum standards or compliance, whatever term they use?
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_02: Give me some funnies, other than don't put a jalapeno in a kid's mouth.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I feel like being in the industry for so long, and even though I'm not a consultant anymore, I'm still very connected to the agency.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_01: And through social media, I've met so many other state ladies.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of these rules come from something.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_01: So it's like I want to know what you're best.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_02: I want to know your funnies.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_01: I think funny because something happened, right?
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's one of those things where you're like, somebody did something crazy, someone did something thoughtless, someone did something just wrong, and now we have to have a rule about it.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I'm just thinking like those weird ones, because you know how there's always weird legislation, like just in everything.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_02: I just want to know what your favorite weird ones are.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_01: I think are weird to me.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like they're all valid.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_01: I honestly do.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_01: I think the one, I think sometimes we get a little carried away with paper, like in the in the children's records, and I'm not gonna say the staff files.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like every drop of information that you hire, that you put for someone that you hire, it is necessary.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_01: I honestly feel like how we put 10 years of work history.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_01: I want 10 years of your address.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_01: Like I feel like with staff, we could honestly do more, but I'm not gonna make y'all hate me by adding more work to the thing.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_01: But I do feel like paperwork for staff should be more detailed because people are crazy and they move to new states to start new lives, and we don't always get a full history of where they come from.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_01: And people act like they can't halfway remember where they work, their boss doesn't work there anymore, so you can't even put like who your supervisor was, you can't get a reference check on them because that person doesn't work there anymore.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_01: Like staff files is just a whole nother thing because I do think a lot of crazy people slip through the cracks because staff, now I will say this, I don't think it's funny, but this is one rule that perturbs me is a lot of staff people get terminated for doing bad stuff, right?
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_01: But the center does not charge them criminally.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_03: I actually wasn't set.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_03: That bothers me.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_03: I was um hired as an expert witness in a case like that where um one program uh terminated somebody for doing some sketchy stuff, but did not make the appropriate referral to CPS.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_03: And so then that person got hired at another center, and that center did the you know, checking to see did you work at this place, did not ask the are they eligible for rehire requests.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_03: And then that person went on to do some more sketchy stuff, but they shouldn't have been able to because the first center should have made a CPS referral.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_03: And they did not.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm like, you can't you can't hold my the center that hired me to account because those people did not file the CPS case.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_03: They did everything they were supposed to.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_03: There's no legal requirement that you ask the rehire question.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_02: But even the reh, but even the rehire question doesn't tell because you can't ask necessarily why unless they sign off on the why, right?
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_02: And it could just be that they're not eligible for rehire because they were habitually late versus they were inappropriate with a child.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_02: But like the same with even theft.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_02: Like I know people who, you know, will fire somebody because they were stealing things, but won't file a criminal charge.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and then they let this person again, same kind of thing.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_02: And even if it's just stealing food, and this is a um a previous podcast episode that was just kind of a funny story um about how somebody got caught stealing food.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_02: But you know, if those things happen, you know, you yes, I know we like people, but we still need to do right by whoever might employ them in the future.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_03: Because there should be a natural consequence.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_03: And if the natural consequence is that you did something sketchy with a kid, then you don't get to work with kids no more.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_03: You can go work at you can go work at, you know, Target.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_03: You can go work at, you know, slinging burgers somewhere, but you cannot work in child care if you did something sketchy with a child.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_03: That's fair.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_03: You have to make those referrals.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_03: It it drives me bananas.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_03: It drives me bananas that that would happen.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, that's not a funny role to me, but that is one that grinds, was it grinds my gears?
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_01: That one takes me out every time because I'm like, especially when you see someone's like when I look at it, I'm like, gosh, they've been in five centers this year.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_01: What happened?
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_01: Like, uh, I wish we could do more with paperwork.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_01: That is one where I just feel like we need more rules, but it's I get it, it's a headache, but I feel like it would save so much aggravation in the long run if we had a better understanding of who we're hiring.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_01: But I get it, it's so hard to halfway hire.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_01: You're like, oh Lord, they passed a background check and they they want to come every day, they got reliable transportation.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_01: Sign them up.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_01: But I do wish we could do more to protect not just the children, but the businesses.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_01: Because when you get a bad employee, that disrupts everything.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_02: So let's talk real quick about this.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_02: I told you I was gonna ask you one question.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_02: Now, here's my question.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_02: In your experience, when you have worked with programs or you've worked with a uh a chain of programs or something, what is one thing related to compliance that, and I'm gonna use that term, that folks will often respond to emotionally instead of pausing and actually looking at the data.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_01: And I can honestly say a lot of times people don't know the rules, they know what happened in a situation that contained or involved a part of a rule, right?
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_01: So people are like, oh, I know all about uh ratios, but they're doing it based on what happened a previous time that they were cited, and that's their interpretation of the rule.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_01: When some of these rules have so many different uh components to the rule, they go from A to K, right?
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_01: And they might only know A.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_01: And so when they get cited for that same thing again, they're like, but I didn't do that.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_01: Because last time y'all told me, yeah, but the rule, which you get down to L M N L M N O P, not L N O L M N O N P, you'll see that there are other parts of that rule.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_01: And a lot of people, especially people that have been in childcare for forever, they feel like they don't even need to read the rule book anymore because they know it.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_01: And it's crazy.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_01: Like, even as a consultant, I printed my rule book.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_01: I was a tree knocker outer.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think we can say the other word anymore.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_01: I took some trees out.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_01: And I also had a shortcut of it on my desktop.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_01: To this day, I have a shortcut.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_01: I pay for paper now, so I don't print it out.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_01: I have a shortcut to the rule book on my desktop and on my phone.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_01: And so I can always get to the rules because no one can memorize the rule book.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_01: It's revising and your interpretation as you experience things can change.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_01: Enough mulch and now putting a number, now that my slide is this tall, I need six inches, not enough.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_01: Once you get, you get, I mean, do you get what I'm saying?
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_01: Like once you get a better grasp of the rules, it makes more sense.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_01: Where before you're just like, oh, she said I had enough mulch, and you keep looking at this playground that you look at every day, and you don't realize that every time it rains, you get a little less mulch.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_01: It's getting packed down.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: Getting blown away.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: It's getting put in children's pockets.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_01: And you keep looking at it and you're like, last time she said this was enough, you didn't learn that you needed six inches.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_01: You learned she told you that was enough.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_01: And I think what happens is people are like, my state lady told me something different the last time she was here.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not negating that does happen sometimes.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_01: But a lot of times that's not what happened.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_01: That scenario that you learned has changed.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_01: Or it's been clarified.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_02: Like you, like I think the number thing is a great, is a great example of enough versus six inches.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_02: Because again, they may have measured, you didn't know she measured.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_02: I have a tool in my clipboard.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_01: I have tons of tools in my clipboard, right?
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_01: And I had this stick that can like break ground.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_01: And I would put it's marked, and I could tell when I hit three, when I hit six, when I hit nine with mulch.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_01: It's a quick action.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of people don't see it because I'm walking the whole playground.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_01: Most providers watch me from afar, right?
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_01: But then they swat a bug or their phone rings or a teacher needs a bathroom break.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_01: They don't see me measure it, but I did.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, my first licensing rep um carried around a tenant, carried around a ball.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_03: And she was like, I don't always, you know, I said, Why do you have a ball?
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_03: Why are you bouncing a ball around my playground?
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_03: And she said, Um, so if you don't have enough fall surface, the ball will bounce.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_03: And if I drop the ball and it stays down, then you have enough and I don't have to measure.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_03: And so that's what she would just drop a ball all around the playground.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_03: So that then became a tool that I used as an owner.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_03: And I had my teachers.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_02: Wait, wait, wait, wait.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_02: That's a that's a tip.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_02: That's a tip.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_02: So all of you directors and owners who do playground checklists, make sure that with your playground checklist, you have a tennis ball.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_02: And it rewinds depends on your surface.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_03: If that is true, starting this.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it will be um I don't think it works on the rubberized, the the unitary rubberized surface.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_03: I think it will it will bounce even if that's in good shape.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_03: But if you're using pea gravel, bark mulch, or sand, it will work.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, so only if you've got the loose fill kinds.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_03: I I don't know if it works with the shredded rubber.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so we I've never I've never tried a tennis ball.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_01: I had my stick and I carried that stick everywhere I went.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_01: I still have that stick.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, I think it's a good tool.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but it's for the person who's doing the everyday check, you know, you've got to have somebody every day walking through and making sure that, you know, a snake hasn't shed its skin or people haven't used you as a litter box.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_03: Paraphernalia.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I was thinking all the all the critters that use it as a litter box.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my gosh.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_01: I just feel like the earth or the world, both the earth and the world, every it's everything's going through something right now.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_01: And the amount of animals, like the shedding of the skin, the different rodents that people are finding on their playgrounds.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_01: But just like these new things are growing.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_01: Like I know I saw a very unique weed one day, and even the owner was like, I don't know, we just keep getting those.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's just weird on top of people littering, and then of course the wind blows it into your property, and then depending on where your program is, it's not good litter.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_01: So it's just, you know.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_02: Or people literally will have a party in your parking lot and then toss stuff out of the parking lot into the playground because it's fenced in.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_02: Um, okay.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_01: So we've all heard plenty over the years, obviously.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_01: I have one center that I work with, and they're next to like um, it's I guess it is a gas station, but it has like one pump, but it's more so a convenience store.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_01: And they have so much litter.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_01: They even tried to modify their playground by making their fence taller and to give the children more privacy.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_01: The trash still makes it onto their playground.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if people are playing basketball on the other side.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not sure, but they still have a trash problem on their on their playground.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_01: It's crazy.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_02: It is, it is, but that is part of the reason why part of your opening checklist every day should have somebody assigned to check the the playground.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_02: The playground.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_02: And absolutely, and that's a minimum.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_02: You might even need somebody going out there twice a day, uh, depending on kind of the location.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, do you have excessive critters because you are backed up to some woods, or you get the whole other level because you're next to a gas station, convenience store, or public community.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_02: Well, thank you so much.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_02: Anything else?
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_01: Well, then let me add one more thing to the playground, though.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_01: Let's add one more thing to the playground.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_01: The playground is everybody's job.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_01: I know that we're very big on this, like morning checklist and afternoon checklist.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_01: But the people that are using the playground, because they're supposed to be walking around, it is not gonna hurt your neck to look up and down.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_01: It is not gonna, it is not gonna take away from your day to look down and see what's on the ground and possibly prevent one of your children from stepping on an ant mound, one of your children from picking up the remains of an animal.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_01: It will not hurt you to look up and down.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_01: We cannot just have this attitude of that's not my job.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_01: And it, this, you know, this mindset of I don't I'm only paid to do this.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_01: In childcare, keeping children safe is everybody's job.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_01: And it's just children safe, yes, but you're keeping yourself safe, safe because you'd be the one to step on the ant pile, not the children.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_01: It'd be your luck that you step on the nest.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_01: And so I really like whenever I do trainings, whenever I do like staff trainings, I let people know the playground is everyone's job.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_01: Everyone should be using their necks, looking up and down and all around on the playground to make sure that there are no hazards that are accessible to them or the children in care.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_01: It's not, oh, in the morning.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_01: I know in Georgia, you can get an ant mound after one rain.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know what type of ants we have here, but they can create a mound in 30 seconds.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_01: All they need is a little bit of rain and they turn into teenage mutant ninja ants, and they can build the biggest things in the world in all they need is 30 seconds.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, absolutely.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_03: I would uh I would 100% sign off on that as a former owner, without a doubt.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, it's everybody's job.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_03: And if you told me something wasn't your job, I'd be like, hmm, well, then none of this is, honey.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_03: Um and do you want to finish out the week or just today?
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_03: Because that was not an attitude that I could handle.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_03: Um and but I know it's out there.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_03: And when we're having difficulty hiring, like we were a year ago, and I think people still think it's as hard as it was a year ago.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_03: It's not as hard as it was a year ago, guys.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_03: Just you're having a little PTSD.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_03: It's it's better now.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_03: It really is.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and that's not just me saying it because I'm seeing it from the side of the road.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_03: It's me saying it, talking to hundreds, if not thousands, of directors and owners every year.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_03: It is easier today than it was a year ago.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_03: The great resignation is over.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and we've got plenty of people who are tired of working uh a gig job and they want something with some consistency.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_03: Um, they want something where they get some feeling that they've accomplished something at the end of the day.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_03: And working in childcare can give them that.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_03: They who wants to be a super driver when they could be playing with play-doh?
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_03: Some people, we don't want that.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_03: The other people come on into our industry.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_03: We got play-doh to spare.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_03: Come on, guys, let's go.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_01: No, absolutely.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_01: Child care is such a fulfilling role.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_01: Like I think people forget that when they get mad.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_01: But as soon as they go to another job and they realize that job is not perfect and they're gonna make them mad, you might as well work where your heart resides and just know that someone's gonna make you mad or you're gonna have a, you're gonna have a bad day, but you're gonna have a bad day anywhere you go.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_01: You're gonna have a bad day no matter how much money you make, right?
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_01: Because it's always that debate about that quarter.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_01: If I go up the street and I get two quarters more, it is just gonna be so magical.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_01: You know, stay where you were and know that every day you're you're putting seeds into the most beautiful garden we'll ever experience, a person.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_01: You are building up a person to be a great adult one day, a great human one day, versus every five minutes you get a new customer that's never gonna learn your name and you're never gonna matter.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_01: Even if you find a coupon for them, they're never gonna remember you.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_01: But people remember their teachers.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_01: People remember the hugs Miss Mary gave them.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_01: People remember their foundation.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_01: And even if the child doesn't necessarily remember, they still feel you in their heart.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_03: And those parents remember you.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_02: All right, I'm gonna make us the wrap this up because otherwise we're gonna be in a second episode.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_02: So, with that, go reach out, go find all of the contact information for Renee, for Renee.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna get this right eventually.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_01: Ronnie is my dad.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_01: Rane is me.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_03: Ronnie and Renee is my best friend.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_03: So that's what's going on there.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_03: You're trying to get three people into one name.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_03: I I can't.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_03: I can't do it.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_02: I can't do it.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_02: But all of her contact information, how you can reach her, is in our show notes.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_02: If you've got questions for her, reach out, click the ask a question on your podcast listening app.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, and we would love to connect.
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_02: And with that, Carrie, what do people need to do?
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_03: Well, they need to share this show with somebody else who needs to know.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_03: And come back and listen to us in a few days.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_03: So if you're not subscribed or following on your podcast player of choice, go ahead and hit that button.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_03: It won't cost you a dime, and it'll make it so that you have something fun and interesting to listen to on your way into work.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_03: Talk to you soon.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for tuning in.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_00: We love bringing you real talk and fresh insight from the world of early childhood education.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_00: Be sure to follow us on social media to stay connected and catch all of the latest episodes.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_00: And if you're planning a conference, training, or special event, Kate and Carrie would love to speak to your audience.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_00: You can learn more about their keynote sessions and workshops at kateandcary.com.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_00: If you learned something today, share the show and leave us a review below.
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_00: We'll see you next time on Childcare Conversations.