Latest / Wellness, Actually with Emily Oster & Perry Wilson, MD / Representation in Children’s Books with Anna Gifty Opoku-Agyeman

Transcript

Representation in Children’s Books with Anna Gifty Opoku-Agyeman · Wellness, Actually with Emily Oster & Perry Wilson, MD

• 0:01
  Speaker 1: Welcome to parent Data by Emily Oster. This is Emily.
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: I'm a professor of economics at Brown University and a
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: mom of two. I write a newsletter called parent Data,
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: and on this podcast, i'll read it to you. If
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: you want to read the newsletter yourself and see more
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: of my writing on parenting and pregnancy, you can sign
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: up for free at www dot parentdata dot org. You'll
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: get reader stories, Q and as and other special features
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: in your inbox that I don't share here. Today, I
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: am thrilled to bring you an interview that I did
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: with Anna Gifty. Anna is a PhD student at Harvard
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: in economics and public policy. She's an author of The
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: Black Agenda, which is what we're going to talk about today,
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: and of the subsec newsletter A Seat at the Table.
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: In twenty eighteen, she co founded the Sadie Collective, which
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: is the first nonprofit organization to address the underrepresentation of
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: black women in economics, finance, and policy. Anna is someone
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: who I really admire and have felt very privileged to
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: get to know in the past few years and privileged
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: to call her a friend. This was a really interesting,
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: thought provoking and fun conversation, and I hope you will
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: listen and enjoy. We also have an excerpt from The
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: Black Agenda that's published in the newsletters, so please head
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: over there to check it out after you listen to this.
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: And now to my conversation with Anna. So I am
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: delighted to welcome Anna gifty A poku Ajamen to the podcast.
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: So first I want to say just thank you for
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: being here. I'm extremely excited for this conversation. Our goal
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: here is to talk about your book, The Black Agenda,
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: which is out in paperback this week and which I
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: hope everyone will read. I read this book when it
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: came out a year or so ago, and I really
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: read it as a kind of call to action to
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: bring diverse perspectives, and in particular perspectives of black scholars
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: into our policy debates. The book really covers a huge
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: range of policy issues, and I actually want to start
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: by asking you about that choice. Although we're going to
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: focus our conversation mostly on the essays about education and representations.
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: But before we get into that, I would love if
• 2:23
  Speaker 1: you would just introduce yourself.
• 2:25
  Speaker 2: Well, first of all, thank you so much for having
• 2:26
  Speaker 2: me Emily.
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: And so I should just tell I will I feel
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: like I should tell everybody that I really like we're
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: I really like you and we're friends, and I think
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: we're friends. We're friends, and so I'm just yes, outside
• 2:38
  Speaker 1: of the formality, I'm just delighted we get to talk.
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: Ah, thank you. Yeah, No, it's great to be here.
• 2:46
  Speaker 2: We've known each other for a while now, actually, which
• 2:48
  Speaker 2: is really awesome. I think, like very early on when
• 2:50
  Speaker 2: I entered economics as a student, like we got to
• 2:54
  Speaker 2: know each other really well, and it's been awesome just
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: seeing this platform grow and seeing this community grow. So again,
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: thank you so much for having me on. So Hi everybody.
• 3:03
  Speaker 2: My name is Anna, So my sosial name is Anna Gifty,
• 3:05
  Speaker 2: but most people call me Anna. And currently I'm a
• 3:08
  Speaker 2: PhD candidate at the Harvard County School where I study
• 3:12
  Speaker 2: public policy with the concentration and economics, and so the
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: topics I typically focus on deal with sort of the
• 3:19
  Speaker 2: intersection of race, gender, and class as it pertains to
• 3:22
  Speaker 2: the workplace, but also broader economic trends, and so this
• 3:27
  Speaker 2: book kind of pays from amand to like the individuals
• 3:29
  Speaker 2: who sort of laid the foundation for the work that
• 3:32
  Speaker 2: I'm hoping to add on to, but also it's kind
• 3:36
  Speaker 2: of an extension of the things that I want to
• 3:38
  Speaker 2: learn more about, and also the conversations I've had with
• 3:41
  Speaker 2: individuals such as Emily around topics that need more black
• 3:45
  Speaker 2: expertise to be infused into the conversation so that we
• 3:49
  Speaker 2: can kind of start to really address the heart of
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: problems and kind of build solutions in a way that
• 3:56
  Speaker 2: actually serves us all.
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: So, the book is a collection of essays, and it
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: is on an enormous range of topics. And I want
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: to ask you about that because I think to play
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: Devil's advocate, you know, by having these all live together,
• 4:10
  Speaker 1: you know that's there's a potential dilution of the individual messages.
• 4:15
  Speaker 1: And I actually read there as a sort of broader point.
• 4:18
  Speaker 1: But maybe you could tell me why you put this
• 4:20
  Speaker 1: all together.
• 4:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's such a great question and point to make,
• 4:26
  Speaker 2: I think. So, you know, these essays talk to one another, right,
• 4:33
  Speaker 2: I think that you can read these essays out of order.
• 4:37
  Speaker 2: But what you're realized after reading about two or three
• 4:40
  Speaker 2: of the essays, even if you're they're not in the
• 4:42
  Speaker 2: same you know, chapter, is that they are in conversation
• 4:45
  Speaker 2: with one another. The big idea that this book is
• 4:49
  Speaker 2: trying to present, I think is that if we're trying
• 4:52
  Speaker 2: to solve problems in our community, we can't ignore black people, right,
• 4:57
  Speaker 2: Like that is like the overarching message across the board.
• 5:01
  Speaker 2: And then I think that this book takes it one
• 5:03
  Speaker 2: step further, where it's saying, not only can we not
• 5:07
  Speaker 2: ignore black people, but the solutions that we have to
• 5:09
  Speaker 2: these problems can't ignore black people as well. And so
• 5:14
  Speaker 2: where things vary oftentimes is the kinds of solutions that
• 5:19
  Speaker 2: people present. So, you know, I like to talk a
• 5:22
  Speaker 2: little bit about like the criminal justice chapter. Right, criminal
• 5:24
  Speaker 2: justice as a topic and policy issue is highly contested
• 5:30
  Speaker 2: both in media but also, like I think in people's
• 5:33
  Speaker 2: personal circles, Like people have very strong views on sort
• 5:37
  Speaker 2: of police involvement in communities, thinking about sort of the
• 5:42
  Speaker 2: role of the prison system, et cetera. And people have
• 5:45
  Speaker 2: very very different solutions about that. But I think the
• 5:48
  Speaker 2: overarching message of that chapter and the chapters within the
• 5:51
  Speaker 2: book is that whatever solution we decide can't ignore black
• 5:56
  Speaker 2: people because black people are a big, big part of
• 5:59
  Speaker 2: how this country came to be.
• 6:01
  Speaker 1: So actually, what I resonate with all that, I actually
• 6:04
  Speaker 1: think the pieces that I think are most important are
• 6:07
  Speaker 1: when you are in space, is when the book is
• 6:10
  Speaker 1: in space?
• 6:10
  Speaker 2: Is that that I.
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: Think we wouldn't where we wouldn't be looking for those
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: voices as much. I think there's some stuff where you know,
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: there's parts on climate change and you say, well, what
• 6:19
  Speaker 1: do you mean climate climate change? You know, and and
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: I think with that sometimes there is a frame of
• 6:25
  Speaker 1: we're going to include black voices when we are talking
• 6:28
  Speaker 1: about a topic that is that feels like it has
• 6:32
  Speaker 1: an obvious racial component, and criminal justice is in that space, right,
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: That's an example. Then when we're going to talk about
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: something else like climate change or environmental justice or it
• 6:42
  Speaker 1: was well that we don't need to have diverse voices
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: because we can cover that, you know, with white people.
• 6:49
  Speaker 1: And I think that's some of the point of the
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: book is like, hey, actually, like this should be part
• 6:53
  Speaker 1: of all of these policy conversations, and it should be
• 6:56
  Speaker 1: it should be sort of overarching and everything. And I
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: think that's an important that's an important point.
• 7:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I think that's a really great summary of that point. Around.
• 7:05
  Speaker 2: You know, there's I think what doctor Trusty mcmullcom says
• 7:08
  Speaker 2: is like there's race talk, this idea of like you know,
• 7:12
  Speaker 2: there's not never really space for black expertise to just
• 7:16
  Speaker 2: be in the spaces that black experts reside in. Right,
• 7:20
  Speaker 2: It's very much relegated to Black history months, relegated to
• 7:23
  Speaker 2: now juneteens, relegated to you know, when we're highlighting racial
• 7:28
  Speaker 2: gaps and policies and acknowledging those racial gaps like black
• 7:32
  Speaker 2: women's equal Payday. But the idea here is like all
• 7:35
  Speaker 2: throughout the year, every year, black expertise is really really important,
• 7:41
  Speaker 2: not just because it's black, but because black people are
• 7:43
  Speaker 2: people too, right, And so it's it's a great point.
• 7:48
  Speaker 2: It could be the title of many things, right, right,
• 7:52
  Speaker 2: But like that's really what it boils down to. It's
• 7:54
  Speaker 2: like we're people too, and so our opinions are just
• 7:57
  Speaker 2: as important. And I think that to some degree, a
• 8:00
  Speaker 2: lot of times, when you know, different entities and institutions
• 8:05
  Speaker 2: focused on one group's opinion as sort of the default opinion,
• 8:09
  Speaker 2: you end up missing out on all these other potential
• 8:12
  Speaker 2: solutions two problems that are facing all of our communities
• 8:15
  Speaker 2: that could actually be really really helpful.
• 8:18
  Speaker 1: So the book the sort of three chapters of the
• 8:21
  Speaker 1: book that I think are most resonant with the audience
• 8:25
  Speaker 1: who listens to this are you know. First, there's a
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: great essay on maternal health. And we've talked a lot
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: about maternal health in this newsletter recently, and so we're
• 8:32
  Speaker 1: not going to talk about that. But it is a
• 8:35
  Speaker 1: great essay that highlights a lot of the issues that
• 8:38
  Speaker 1: I think have gotten more attention but should get more
• 8:40
  Speaker 1: attention around Rachel disparities in maternal health. Yeah, the two
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: that I do want to dig into more. The first
• 8:46
  Speaker 1: is one by Laura Mims, which is on black girls. Yes,
• 8:50
  Speaker 1: it's about education, and she makes a point in the
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: essay that black girls are not sufficiently valued in education
• 8:58
  Speaker 1: and policy. And and I almost read her essay, particularly
• 9:03
  Speaker 1: at the end, as saying that our education system, as
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: we sort of have it now allows for the possibility
• 9:10
  Speaker 1: that black girls could be exceptional scholars and know, it
• 9:12
  Speaker 1: allows for the possibility of Anna, that Anna would appear
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: in your school, and that that would be something you
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: can value, but it doesn't hold them to that expectation.
• 9:22
  Speaker 2: Is that how you read this? That's so well said? Okay,
• 9:27
  Speaker 2: I got it. It's a great essay. I love it,
• 9:30
  Speaker 2: Yes it is. I know I'm not supposed to have
• 9:33
  Speaker 2: favorites that is my favorite essay in the book. I
• 9:35
  Speaker 2: just think it's really well written one, but also I
• 9:39
  Speaker 2: think it kind of blends together the overarching theme of
• 9:43
  Speaker 2: the book and connects the individual experience to the systemic reality. Right,
• 9:50
  Speaker 2: Like to your point, black women are not valued. Black
• 9:53
  Speaker 2: women and girls are not valued in education. Ironically enough,
• 9:56
  Speaker 2: black women and girls go to school alias, right, So
• 10:00
  Speaker 2: we can't ignore the fact that there is a subset
• 10:03
  Speaker 2: of our population that is, you know, educated, and is
• 10:06
  Speaker 2: increasingly becoming more educated, and they want to be contributors
• 10:10
  Speaker 2: to our economy and to our country and to the
• 10:12
  Speaker 2: world at large. But there's a very real rejection to
• 10:16
  Speaker 2: them being in the space, right, And how does that
• 10:20
  Speaker 2: sort of impact one class dynamic, but more importantly the
• 10:23
  Speaker 2: outcomes of these women and girls as they kind of
• 10:26
  Speaker 2: progress through life. In that act, a particular doctor Mims
• 10:31
  Speaker 2: talks about how she's specifically teaching a classroom of black
• 10:36
  Speaker 2: girls that many people would just dismiss. Right, So black
• 10:39
  Speaker 2: girls who might at times fit some of the stereotypes
• 10:42
  Speaker 2: that people know about black women that are not always accurate,
• 10:46
  Speaker 2: but in this case, like that is like who they're
• 10:48
  Speaker 2: that's what their experience is about. And how when she
• 10:52
  Speaker 2: asks these individuals to share why they might be in
• 10:56
  Speaker 2: this particular program that she's teaching, they shot out things
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: that a lot of different voices tell black women on
• 11:05
  Speaker 2: the daily. Right, you're not enough, you're not smart enough.
• 11:10
  Speaker 2: You fit this stereotype, you fit that stereotype. And she
• 11:14
  Speaker 2: tells us the reader that she's almost driven to tears.
• 11:18
  Speaker 2: A lot of times when I talk about this essay,
• 11:20
  Speaker 2: I'm also driven to tears because I think, on a
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: very basic level, this idea of black women being disruptive
• 11:28
  Speaker 2: to a classroom setting is real, right, as someone who
• 11:32
  Speaker 2: was always told that I was too enthusiastic and I
• 11:37
  Speaker 2: needed to use my inside voice like nearly every day
• 11:41
  Speaker 2: right now, Granted.
• 11:42
  Speaker 3: I am, you're a lowed person, but like there's this
• 11:47
  Speaker 3: sort of like punishment for expression that you know, varies
• 11:53
  Speaker 3: depending on the kind of culture in the household you
• 11:56
  Speaker 3: were brought up in.
• 11:57
  Speaker 2: Right, Like, perhaps the way that I displayed joy is
• 12:00
  Speaker 2: I laugh loudly, and you know, I'm trying to make
• 12:03
  Speaker 2: other people laugh that And that's something that's ingrained in
• 12:07
  Speaker 2: me based on how I was raised versus you know,
• 12:10
  Speaker 2: perhaps what man would consider, like how white children, especially
• 12:14
  Speaker 2: white children in wealthy neighborhoods are raised to be right.
• 12:18
  Speaker 2: So I think what I love about her essay in
• 12:21
  Speaker 2: particular is it humanizes black girls in the classroom and beyond,
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: and it also tells us it kind of this is
• 12:29
  Speaker 2: a really clear picture of there are some really practical
• 12:32
  Speaker 2: things that we can do to start addressing this problem,
• 12:36
  Speaker 2: including you know, funneling resources and community to these black girls.
• 12:42
  Speaker 2: And so that is something that I think it's really
• 12:46
  Speaker 2: really important. And in me, I'm talking to a bunch
• 12:48
  Speaker 2: of parents right now, and I think that it's really
• 12:50
  Speaker 2: intentional that you know, as a parent, especially if you're
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: not someone who identifies as black, it's important for you
• 12:56
  Speaker 2: to recognize that you know, your child might be in
• 12:59
  Speaker 2: a classroom with a black child or a black girl,
• 13:02
  Speaker 2: and if you kind of witness something where that black
• 13:05
  Speaker 2: girl feels disempowered, I mean, I think it's important for
• 13:09
  Speaker 2: you to step in and say, hey, no, what you're
• 13:11
  Speaker 2: doing is great, right, or you know, further affirming that
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: black child. There's research by Joshua Harrison and his co
• 13:18
  Speaker 2: authors that kind of talks about stereotype threat right, this
• 13:21
  Speaker 2: idea that a lot of times when people are told
• 13:24
  Speaker 2: about their identity as it relates to some sort of
• 13:28
  Speaker 2: average outcome that's not favorable, people feel less about themselves
• 13:33
  Speaker 2: and it actually impacts the way that they perform. And
• 13:35
  Speaker 2: so I think it's really important for educators, but other
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: parents and other members of the community to affirm black
• 13:41
  Speaker 2: children and to affirm black children reverly. And so that's
• 13:45
  Speaker 2: like a very practical on the ground thing that I
• 13:48
  Speaker 2: think people can do pretty easily, especially if black children
• 13:51
  Speaker 2: and black parents are in your community.
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: The other piece of this that I feel out of
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: that essay is the kind of what is the incentive
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: generated by these kind of structures to sort of controlling
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: the kinds of behavior or sort of generating a need
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: for conformity, and even to things like dress codes. So
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: she talks a little bit about it's sort of like
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: when we have a dress code that you know, whether
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: advertently or inadvertently, kind of sort of makes most acceptable
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: a particular set of clothing which is you know, culturally
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: specific or makes unacceptable that that's a signal in either
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: directly or indirectly about you know, like how should you
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: be showing up here? You should be showing should you
• 14:40
  Speaker 1: be showing up like, you know, not with your whole
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: self or with a with a kind of version of
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: yourself that is and actually, I mean, I think I
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: see this to to a very different extent in the
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: other space that we share, which is, you know, being
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: a woman in economics, and you know, you have an
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: intersectionality aspect of that that I don't. But even just
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: with gender piece, I think there is often this pressure,
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: you know, don't show up with your whole lady self,
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: you know, show up with your I mean, and actually,
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: like some of the most prominent women in our profession,
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: I've talked about the idea of like wearing like boring shoes. Yeah, right,
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: like I had to wear you have to wear boring shoes.
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: So the men aren't like, ah, there's a lady with
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: her shoes. And you know, this of course is a
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: very different space, but the same in some ways a
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: parallel kind of idea about just well, you can't be yourself,
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: be a version of someone else.
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's so that's such a great parallel, And
• 15:37
  Speaker 2: I think there's there's somebody that grew up kind of
• 15:41
  Speaker 2: admiring and witnessing from Afar, kind of expending from doctor
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: Mims's essay. So this is a woman called Brazoma Saint John.
• 15:50
  Speaker 2: Many of you might actually know who she is, really
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: really prominent marketing officer. Also Ghanian American, so she's Ganyan
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: American like me. And when I was first in college
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: and I first got exposed to her, I noticed that
• 16:04
  Speaker 2: she was incredibly unapologetic. She wore Ghanian prints everywhere, like
• 16:10
  Speaker 2: she was super colorful. Her hair was in an afro
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: like it was just very much the thing is, like
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: you whatever people wanted to dissemb about her before she
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: opened her mouth, they could once she opened her mouth,
• 16:24
  Speaker 2: it was like you couldn't really say anything about her intelligence,
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: her intellect, like the way that she showed up. And
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: I don't know why, but for me that has actually
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: been something that I've started to intentionally do where you
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: can actually ask my professor, which we both know, Larry Katz,
• 16:44
  Speaker 2: who you know, when I come to economics, like my
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: libor economics courses, I'm dressed, an I look good, right,
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: I'm wearing something nice. I'm you know, I did a
• 16:55
  Speaker 2: little bit of flair and I remember like doctor or
• 16:59
  Speaker 2: Claudia Golden. Also it's another professor in the economics department.
• 17:03
  Speaker 2: They're actually married. She'll she'll say like, Wow, you look
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: really nice, and I'm like yeah, and then I'll proceed
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: to ask really thoughtful questions in class. And I think
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: it's really important to recognize that, like you can show
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: up as yourself and still be this brilliant, amazing, smart, intelligent,
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: astounding person, right, Like you can do those things. At
• 17:28
  Speaker 2: the same time, I think the black women in my
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: life have always said that people sometimes get mad that
• 17:35
  Speaker 2: you know, some of us can multitask, right, like we
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: you know, and I would I'm not gonna also diminish
• 17:41
  Speaker 2: the fact that, like there has been in the past
• 17:45
  Speaker 2: and even to some degree in the present, a real
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: cost to showing as yourself. Right. So, like to your point,
• 17:50
  Speaker 2: Emily around how some of these older women economists had
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: to essentially mimic, you know, what it looks like to
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: be like a male economics in the profession to get through,
• 18:01
  Speaker 2: Like that's real, right, I think when we add this
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: element of intersectionality, though I can't like conform my rights, right,
• 18:10
  Speaker 2: like that's the gang. And so I think that's a
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: little bit like what doctor Laura Miance is talking about,
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: Like there's a very real reality that just comes with
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: like how we were born that we didn't ask for,
• 18:23
  Speaker 2: but we're getting punished for. And so how do we
• 18:26
  Speaker 2: ensure that black girls in particular, but more importantly other
• 18:30
  Speaker 2: underrepresented groups feel empowered in the classroom to then feel
• 18:34
  Speaker 2: the need to empower others. And so I think that
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: it does begin to your point with sort of normalizing
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: what does it mean to show by as yourself and
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: encouraging young children to do that. And I also think
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: that also boils down to how we treat children. There's
• 18:47
  Speaker 2: a lot of conversation now about like people not treat
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: children as humans. I completely subscribe to that conversation. You know,
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: sometimes you'll.
• 18:55
  Speaker 4: See people talk to kids like they don't know anything, right,
• 19:01
  Speaker 4: But the reality is, like kids are very very aware
• 19:04
  Speaker 4: and want to be aware and want to be curious
• 19:07
  Speaker 4: and want to learn more about the world.
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: And you know, I mean it's actually transitions really nicely
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: too our next essay. But like you know, limiting kids'
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: ability to be curious is limiting people's ability to grow
• 19:21
  Speaker 2: and evolve and eventually improve upon what we already have.
• 19:25
  Speaker 2: And so what you're seeing now with a lot of
• 19:27
  Speaker 2: these laws that are trying to ban kids from reading
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: certain books is a limit on curiosity at its core. Right,
• 19:36
  Speaker 2: kids are curious, They're gonna have questions, they want answers
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: to those questions, and sometimes those questions are gonna be
• 19:41
  Speaker 2: hard for the adults that they're asking those questions too.
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: And I think a lot of what we're seeing right
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: now with bands on books is adults refusing to provide
• 19:51
  Speaker 2: answers to those questions and finding different creative ways quote
• 19:55
  Speaker 2: unquote to not answer those questions. It's this idea of like,
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: if they don't even know about it, then I don't
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: ever have to address it.
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah, no, And I think what's I completely agree with
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: all of that, and I think that what is underlying
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: that is that the books are, for many kids, I think,
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: often a way into into questions, into understanding, into talking
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: about topics that are hard, and that could be a
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: it could be a good way, you know, ideally, I
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: mean I think I think of that as a good way.
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: But of course, if you don't want to have those conversations,
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: then somehow we can sort of say, well, you don't
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: read the books, and then you'll never find out about this, until,
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: of course you will find out about it, and that's
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: not so, but that is exact a great segue into
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: talking about this this next chapter, which is about the
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: value of black children's books by doctor Obi Wi and Starks.
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: And we actually did an interview in the newsletter a
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: couple of years ago even with with Angelia Dukia who's
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: at Harris about representation, and so she has some they're like,
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: quite interesting research on basically the fact that black characters
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: in the New Vary Award books tend to be lighter skin.
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: They did all this image analysis, which is a whole
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: other thing.
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it doesn't surprise me.
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: But this chapter is sort of about books as mirrors
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: in a slightly different way. Do you want to say
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: a little bit about kind of what you took out
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: of that chapter.
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I love this chapter as well, and it's really
• 21:22
  Speaker 2: really relevant. My big idea from this chapter is that
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: it's really really important that people have access to books
• 21:32
  Speaker 2: with black characters in it, because books are oftentimes a
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: way for us to humanize individuals that we might not
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: be in close contact with. Right It's easier to empathize
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: with somebody when someone gives you a direct look into
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: the way that they're thinking, and books are one way
• 21:49
  Speaker 2: to do that. I think when we look at children's
• 21:52
  Speaker 2: books in particular, A lot of times, you know, images
• 21:56
  Speaker 2: are made really salient to young people when they're exposed
• 21:59
  Speaker 2: to like I mean, I don't know what the research
• 22:01
  Speaker 2: is on that, but this idea of like when people
• 22:04
  Speaker 2: read picture books, like you know, I remember the picture
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: books that I read back in the day, right, you
• 22:10
  Speaker 2: know that one with the mouse and the cookie.
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and give a mouse to cookie.
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: That's it.
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: It's like a sequel.
• 22:15
  Speaker 2: They really that guy really milks that.
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: I mean, it's like, yeah, the mouse and the cookie
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: and it's just like all the other animals with different desserts.
• 22:23
  Speaker 2: It's yes, right, or even if it's not even like
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: you know, a picture book, but it has like a
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: really like important visual image and you kind of get
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: a sense of what people are thinking, like Junie B. Jones,
• 22:35
  Speaker 2: That is Junie B. Jones, which raised a lot of us.
• 22:38
  Speaker 2: So like it's important for us to hear the voices
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: of black people in the books that we read, especially
• 22:48
  Speaker 2: for black children, right. And what I really love about
• 22:51
  Speaker 2: what they argue in this is that, you know, there's
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: this sort of idea of like, Okay, we need diverse stories, sure,
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: but I think the other reality of it is Black
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: children also need to be able to read about themselves right,
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: read about what they could become, what they are, right,
• 23:12
  Speaker 2: and what they've been like. These are all things that
• 23:14
  Speaker 2: are important. And I think the gag is white chain
• 23:18
  Speaker 2: have that privilege. A lot of us grew up reading
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: books centered on white children, Magic Treehouse, Three White Children,
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: Julian Jones, a white girl, right, And there's nothing wrong
• 23:33
  Speaker 2: with those stories existing. But why do those have to
• 23:36
  Speaker 2: be the only stories to exist? That is the question, right,
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: And what are we missing from just the whole discourse
• 23:45
  Speaker 2: around the kind the lies that people live if those
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: are the only stories that are featured, right, Because the
• 23:51
  Speaker 2: reality is not everybody is you know, white, rich and
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: living in a suburb.
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: And say that everybody is traveling through time and in
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: Magic Tree, I say that's also true, right.
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: I mean, like that's just the reality of it. And
• 24:08
  Speaker 2: so I think a lot of times too, as somebody
• 24:11
  Speaker 2: who spent her summaries reading books to get one free
• 24:15
  Speaker 2: coupon to get a Chick fil a ice cream gone right?
• 24:18
  Speaker 2: Like for me, books ended up being also a really
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: a way for me to like figure out myself, right,
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: And the gag is like if you aren't seeing yourself
• 24:30
  Speaker 2: in the stories that you're reading. It just makes that
• 24:33
  Speaker 2: process that much harder, and it ends up being worse
• 24:36
  Speaker 2: off for everyone, because I think to some degree, books
• 24:39
  Speaker 2: allow us to feel empowered in our own stories, our
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: own lived experiences, and I think that when people don't
• 24:48
  Speaker 2: feel empowered, when they don't feel like they have a
• 24:50
  Speaker 2: grasp of who they are, it can spin out of
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: control in a way that ends up being harmful to
• 24:56
  Speaker 2: other people. And so I think that it's to me,
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: it's like even preventive, like having black children featured in books,
• 25:02
  Speaker 2: having black people featured in books, being intentional about the
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: stories that individuals are hearing and not only limiting it
• 25:09
  Speaker 2: to black people, right, Like, I think black people is
• 25:11
  Speaker 2: a great place to start. But I think, like you know,
• 25:14
  Speaker 2: Asian American stories are important. I think Latinos and Hispanics
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: are important to be in stories as well, and all
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: of these groups are very underrepresented in literature, And the
• 25:24
  Speaker 2: question is why and what are we losing from that?
• 25:27
  Speaker 2: Because the reality is kids are curious about these stories
• 25:31
  Speaker 2: because they're going to school with people who look like that, right,
• 25:35
  Speaker 2: and so they want to know more about them. And
• 25:37
  Speaker 2: so you don't want to I think the way I
• 25:39
  Speaker 2: put it is like, you don't want to set your
• 25:40
  Speaker 2: kid up right where they grow up and they don't
• 25:44
  Speaker 2: have a good grasp of other people's stories, and that
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: makes them a worse communicator, a worse citizen of the world.
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: You want to make sure that they are equipped in
• 25:52
  Speaker 2: the way that you prepare them for school or prepare
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: them for the workplace. You want to make sure that
• 25:57
  Speaker 2: they're prepared to be a good person and a good
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: human being to somebody else. And the only way to
• 26:03
  Speaker 2: do that is to expose them to the stories of
• 26:06
  Speaker 2: other people that may not be in their community, or
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: may be part of their community, but are in a
• 26:11
  Speaker 2: very different reality.
• 26:13
  Speaker 1: The other piece of it, in sort of getting getting
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: to the point about sort of people liking to read
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: in your experience, you know reading is we actually know
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: from a lot of research that kids will read more
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: about topics that they are interested in, which of course
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: seems completely obvious, but you know, you gotta have research,
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: we gotta have something to do. And you know, the
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: sort of way you can see these things like if
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: you give kids, you know, in the in the US,
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: you know, like a bunch of books about cricket, like
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: they won't really read them because they don't it's very
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: difficult to understand, like what's going on in this cricket game.
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: Do you give them a book about baseball or basketball.
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: Or you know, soccer, they're going to be more interested
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: in it because it's like you have the context. But
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: there's an extension of that, which is, you know, when
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: I am seeing characters who I identify with, uh, that
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: that is a piece of getting engaged in that book.
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: And I think a lot of the way we expose
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: kids to sort of diverse perspectives and books is very specific,
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: I guess is the word I'm looking for, Like, you know,
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: we read books about Martin Luther King or re read
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: books about you know, like Malcolm Max's review books about
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: where they are centering black people but not centering the
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: experience of you know, kids who are going to be
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: reading right right, So it's like, yes, these are these
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: are sort of stories of kind of impressive people that
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: we all should know.
• 27:36
  Speaker 2: But it's different than you know, Judy B.
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: Jones, or it's different you know from from you know,
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: some the Babysitters Club or something where like that's my
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: experience being that I'm reading about someone who I should
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: be identifying with personally, but so rarely do those characters
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: look like me or I mean they actually do look
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: like me, but they rarely look like right.
• 28:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean to build on that point. I love
• 28:04
  Speaker 2: what you said there. I think it boils down to
• 28:08
  Speaker 2: black people are not part of the ordinary? Why, right,
• 28:14
  Speaker 2: Like that is just what it is.
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: It's the same. It means, it's the whole point of
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: this essay book in some sense, which is like, this
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: should just be ordinary. It should not be like we
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: we look for this in a special circumstance. It should
• 28:28
  Speaker 1: be that these voices are That's exactly right.
• 28:32
  Speaker 2: Then, you know, it goes back to this fundamental idea,
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: and I think this book is also trying to show
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: that black people are human too. Right, This idea of
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: like being human means you have ordinary experiences. It means
• 28:43
  Speaker 2: that you can babysit kids too. It means that if
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: you want to, you know, climb into a treehouse, you
• 28:48
  Speaker 2: can do that too. Right. But I think that that
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: is that's precisely where the tension lies, this idea that
• 28:58
  Speaker 2: black people aren't human or not seen as human most
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: of the time, and so the black people that end
• 29:06
  Speaker 2: up being featured are the ones that folks deem exceptional
• 29:09
  Speaker 2: or deem exceptional enough to be humanized right or not
• 29:13
  Speaker 2: even humanis. And a lot of times those individuals, the
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: folks like you know, doctor Martin Luther King Jr. Or
• 29:19
  Speaker 2: you know Harriet Tubman, are exalted in such a way
• 29:22
  Speaker 2: that they're still being dehumanized because we're not really getting
• 29:27
  Speaker 2: the full sense of who they are. Right, not to
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: say that those stories that praise their achievements and praise
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: their efforts are not needed. They are one hundred percent needed.
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: But I think that we need black girls and black
• 29:41
  Speaker 2: boys and you know, black children overall who are just
• 29:44
  Speaker 2: centered in the ordinary, and I think we all miss
• 29:48
  Speaker 2: out when they're not Black children, especially with that. That's
• 29:53
  Speaker 2: kind of what this essay is getting at too, and
• 29:55
  Speaker 2: that's why books like Hair Love by Matthew Cherry is
• 29:59
  Speaker 2: so important. This is a black girl getting her hair done, right.
• 30:03
  Speaker 2: We all, like, you know, we all get our hair
• 30:05
  Speaker 2: done to some degree, but there's something distinct about the
• 30:08
  Speaker 2: way she's getting her hair done, and it's ordinary, right,
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: And so I think that that is those are the
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: kind of stories that we really really need moving forward
• 30:17
  Speaker 2: to kind of combat you know, some of the ideas
• 30:21
  Speaker 2: that form very early on around you know, race and
• 30:25
  Speaker 2: Oh I think that I think there was a study
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: on that was featured on CNM. Forgot who ended up
• 30:31
  Speaker 2: doing it, but you know, they brought a bunch of
• 30:33
  Speaker 2: children in they kind of replicated it, but they brought
• 30:36
  Speaker 2: a bunch of children and they show them, you know,
• 30:38
  Speaker 2: a bunch of pictures of drawings that buried in shade,
• 30:41
  Speaker 2: and they said, show me the good child, show me
• 30:43
  Speaker 2: the bad child, show me the child that you want
• 30:44
  Speaker 2: to be most like a lot of the black children
• 30:47
  Speaker 2: chose the white child, like.
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: The doll experiment, Yeah.
• 30:50
  Speaker 2: The dolls doll experiment. Yeah, I think it was like
• 30:52
  Speaker 2: a replication of that. What does that say about Like
• 30:57
  Speaker 2: I think for me, like if I was a parent,
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: I would be heartbroken by that, right, the fact that
• 31:04
  Speaker 2: this this young black child doesn't think that they're worthy
• 31:08
  Speaker 2: and they're only five, Like that's crazy, right, because I
• 31:13
  Speaker 2: think as like a parent, many many folks know that, like, oh,
• 31:18
  Speaker 2: if that's how you're feeling at five, there's going to
• 31:20
  Speaker 2: be so many more messages that come down your way
• 31:23
  Speaker 2: that are going to try to get you to believe that.
• 31:25
  Speaker 2: And so if you're already starting there. Fundamentally, you're already
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: set up for failure. And so how do we begin
• 31:33
  Speaker 2: to intervene there? This essay says we begin with books.
• 31:38
  Speaker 2: Books are a really good way to begin, and I
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: think with white children particularly, I'm talking to a lot
• 31:43
  Speaker 2: of white parents here as well. You know, you can
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: disrupt the way your child also thinks about who's the
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: good child and who's the bad child by introducing those
• 31:52
  Speaker 2: types of books in your household, right and ensuring that
• 31:57
  Speaker 2: I always say, it's gonna be kind of spicy, but sure,
• 32:00
  Speaker 2: I mean that the black people and brown people that
• 32:01
  Speaker 2: you engage with are not just people who serve you,
• 32:05
  Speaker 2: because I think a lot of times people who only
• 32:07
  Speaker 2: engage with black and brown people when they're at work,
• 32:11
  Speaker 2: right when there's a clerk that they're engaging with, or
• 32:15
  Speaker 2: if they're engaging with somebody who is offering them something
• 32:18
  Speaker 2: or serving them. Like I'm talking about white parents in particular,
• 32:22
  Speaker 2: and I say this as somebody who went to children
• 32:24
  Speaker 2: went to school, excuse me, with white children, like I
• 32:26
  Speaker 2: went to private schools growing up on scholarship with a
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: lot of very wealthy white children, and that was their reality.
• 32:36
  Speaker 2: And so in some ways, me being in the space
• 32:39
  Speaker 2: was disruptive because their benchmark was whatever they saw on TV.
• 32:44
  Speaker 2: Whatever they saw on TV was a flattened version of
• 32:47
  Speaker 2: what it meant to be black. And I was this
• 32:50
  Speaker 2: three dimensional person in their midst kind of got upset sometimes,
• 32:55
  Speaker 2: who lives sometimes, who could relate to them sometimes or
• 33:00
  Speaker 2: a lot of them, I think, and I know, at
• 33:02
  Speaker 2: least for one me being there helped them rethink the
• 33:07
  Speaker 2: way that race showed up in their life, right, And
• 33:10
  Speaker 2: so I think in a very real way, you can
• 33:12
  Speaker 2: start that process by introducing black people, black children in
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: the ordinary at a very very young age.
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: Oh I feel like I touch you for like nine hours.
• 33:24
  Speaker 2: But yeah, that was This is awesome.
• 33:26
  Speaker 1: Okay, you're great. Listen, tell people before we end, tell
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: people where they can find you and what you're doing next.
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: So where can you find me? One proably doesn't know this,
• 33:37
  Speaker 2: but I'm gotta say it. I restarted my substag.
• 33:41
  Speaker 1: Substack amazing, Okay, I'm back.
• 33:44
  Speaker 2: I'm back. So it's just an a gifty dot substag
• 33:47
  Speaker 2: dot com and it's called a Seat at the Table.
• 33:50
  Speaker 2: So if you're interested in topics like these, or you
• 33:52
  Speaker 2: want to learn more about them. This is essentially going
• 33:55
  Speaker 2: to be a substack that provides a digest on things
• 33:59
  Speaker 2: related to identity policy in the world around us. And
• 34:03
  Speaker 2: so I'll be sharing what i'm.
• 34:05
  Speaker 5: Reading, you know, what I am you know, rethinking, and
• 34:09
  Speaker 5: what I'm researching around these different topics, and also sprinkling
• 34:13
  Speaker 5: some memes if that's the thing that you're kind of into.
• 34:17
  Speaker 2: But I'm also on you know, social media as well.
• 34:19
  Speaker 2: I'm pretty actually engaging there too, so I'm happy to
• 34:21
  Speaker 2: talk to folks who want to answer or ask questions, sorry,
• 34:24
  Speaker 2: ask or answer questions around the topics that we've discussed today.
• 34:27
  Speaker 2: So I'm every everywhere. I'm it's acronomics, I T S A,
• 34:31
  Speaker 2: F R, O, N O, M, I C S. And yeah,
• 34:36
  Speaker 2: that's kind of where you can find me Twitter, Instagram,
• 34:40
  Speaker 2: and then I'm on LinkedIn if you're a business type
• 34:42
  Speaker 2: of person and you want to connect with me there.
• 34:44
  Speaker 2: But thank you so much. Yeah, I'm excited to connect.
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: I am. Yes, thank you so much for doing this
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: and h yeah, thank you, I will, thank you, thank you,
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: we love you.
• 34:54
  Speaker 2: Thank you, thank you, thank you. I appreciate you.
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: Thanks for listening. If you like what you heard, subscribe
• 35:04
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• 35:08
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• 35:11
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• 35:15
  Speaker 1: dot org. Talk to you soon.