Latest / Houselights: A Film Director Podcast / BlacKkKlansman (2018) - Spike Lee | Houselights #183

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BlacKkKlansman (2018) - Spike Lee | Houselights #183 · Houselights: A Film Director Podcast

0:03
Welcome to the ned Palty. Hello everybody at home, and welcome to Houselights
0:23
House of Lee, specifically Spike Lee, as we journey into his filmography decade
0:29
by decade, and this decade we are doing twenty eighteen's Black Clansman, starring
0:34
the Great John David Washington and his undercover Jewish partner Adam Driver. I am
0:41
your co host Tristan Riddell, and as they are with me every single week,
0:46
Darren Moser and John Mills, how are you guys doing today? Well?
0:50
Ready to talk about this movie because I very much wanted to see it
0:55
when it came out, didn't get around to it, regretted it, and
1:00
I'm glad that once again, just as I said last week, podcast Homework
1:03
comes to the rescue and I finally get to clear this from my queue.
1:07
So this is your first time watching it? It is. Indeed, it
1:11
is my first time watching Darren, how about you? Uh yeah, first
1:14
time watching for me? I was to put my podcast microphone under my shirt
1:19
because apparently that's where you wear mics, but I figured it would be a
1:23
little rustley, But no, I was looking forward to this as well.
1:27
On this journey of Spike Lee, that we've been doing so how many years
1:32
between films? I mean, like obviously he did movies in between Twenty fifth
1:37
Hour and Black Clansmen, but we're spanning a huge jump in time here.
1:42
Uh yeah, sixteen years. It's like a kid, Yeah, like his
1:49
career during between the two movies that were covering could legally drive right now.
1:55
That's pretty insane. So, John, what did you know about Black Klansman
2:00
before you watched the movie? Like? What did you know besides just the
2:04
poster? You know, Like, what did you know about the film?
2:07
Did you hear anything about it? Or did you go into this blind?
2:09
Yeah? I mean I knew it was based on a true story about you
2:13
know, a black cop who had, you know, with the assistance of
2:17
a partner, infiltrated the Klan, and that it was and that it was
2:23
build. It was promoted at least as something that had a bit of a
2:25
sense of humor, like it was you know, it wasn't tongue in cheek,
2:30
but it approached its pro it's it approached the subject with as much levity
2:36
as possible, sort of a you know, if you will. You very
2:39
much picked up from the promotional campaign that there was a mocking tone about the
2:43
people that the main character was going after, the ludicrousness of the situation and
2:47
the embrace of how we've all sort of nostalgically gone back and looked at the
2:53
seventies as sort of like a wacky, loose time, like it had sort
2:57
of a boogie Night's vibe about based on the commercials. I like that comparison,
3:02
I really do. I think it's That was one of the things that
3:06
Spike Lee said when he agreed to do it. He said, I will
3:10
agree to do this. I will agree to cover this story, but there's
3:15
gotta be a sense of humor to it. And I think that was incredibly
3:20
beneficial to the project. I think that was very wise and very smart on
3:23
Lee's part to bring some levity to it, because this is what like,
3:28
Spike Lee didn't even think that this was a real story. Like I can't
3:32
remember who talked to him about it and said like, oh, yeah,
3:36
you should do a movie about this, and he said, no, one
3:38
would believe it. This is too crazy. He's like, no, this
3:40
is a real thing. This actually happened, and Spike Lee was blown away.
3:46
And I think that's so funny. Well, well, the thing is
3:50
it Actually the first one of the first things I thought of when I heard
3:53
the premise of the movie actually was a skit from the very first episode of
3:55
Chappelle's show. Absolutely, and it's an infamous sketch and it's funny as hell,
4:02
and like, you know, so yeah, Like it was the same
4:05
thing where oh, it's based on a true story, was a little bit
4:09
of a head scratcher because it was like, oh, okay, sure,
4:14
you know, like, yeah, it catches you a little off guard.
4:16
And I think that's the thing is that, like you, I mean,
4:19
obviously, we're dealing with very serious things here, and serious things that affect
4:26
people in a very traumatic way. And I think I think Lee does a
4:31
very good job of balancing that. Like you have moments that are laugh out
4:36
loud funny, but then you have moments that are absolutely terrifying and disheartening.
4:44
And it's so hard to balance that because I wouldn't call this a no pun
4:49
intended, but a black comedy, like a you know, like something with
4:53
black humor. Uh, It's this is very much like it has serious bits,
4:57
it has funny bits. But one thing that I really want to call
5:00
out before Darren, I ask you a question is there. There's a moment
5:05
where the one of one of the KKKA members, the kk member who's married.
5:12
It's him and his his wife in bed together and she's talking about She's
5:15
saying, She's like, we're really, we're really doing it. We're really
5:18
we're really gonna kill all these black people and we're still we talked about it
5:23
for years, but we're finally doing it. There's music in the background,
5:27
they're in a loving embrace. That scene is treated as if it's normal,
5:31
as if this is totally an average conversation between two people that could have been
5:36
made for laughs, that could have been made to be terrifying, and it
5:42
made He made it matter of fact, and that in itself makes it funny
5:46
and terrifying. And I think that, like Lee kind of paints this movie
5:50
with that brush. Darren, what did you think about the tone of this
5:55
film? Like John was talking about the ad campaigns about how it kind of
5:58
made him feel like how Boogie Nights to do in its historical retrospect, what
6:02
did you think about the tone? Did you think it was a cop did
6:04
you as you watched this, did you think it was a comedy with some
6:08
drama mixed in, drama with comedy mixed in, or something new altogether.
6:12
What did you think? Yeah, I didn't know a lot going into it.
6:15
So when you know, Alec Baldwin starts us off in this like tirade
6:23
of propaganda, and I'm like, what is happening? And then we're seeing
6:28
Gone with the Wind, and then all of a sudden, it's like boom
6:30
nineteen seventy two, and I'm like, what what just happened? Like that
6:34
was what a cold open to just really kind of shake you and be like,
6:40
hey, here we go. And then once we're introduced to ron Stalworth,
6:44
it's like, it's interesting, It's like that's the primer. But ron
6:48
Stalworth is the tone, you know, you know John David Washington is,
6:53
He's the embodiment of you know, He's like, I got to live in
6:57
this time, I got to do my thing, but I want to be
6:59
a cop, but I want to you know, I want these things for
7:00
my life. Really, he is the tone, He's the pulse. So
7:05
yeah, I didn't I didn't know a lot going in, But I I
7:11
think you've really summed it up though, where Spike Lee knows when to paint
7:15
with the brush of humor, when to paint with the brush of like terror,
7:19
and even more poignantly, when to just paint the things that the clan
7:25
are doing as if they're thinking it's normal. And that's terrifying because when they're
7:31
just like on the phone talking about this or hey, let's go do this,
7:35
you're like, but they're serious, and it's just they don't need to
7:41
twirl their mustaches, they don't need to be like brooding music in the background
7:46
as they plot and scheme. It's like, no, like this is guy
7:48
down the street who thinks that this is a good thing for America and it's
7:55
chilling. Well, I think that something that's interesting that Lee also does,
7:58
and you know, you got to give it to the screenwriters that are involved
8:01
as well, but you know, I'll ultimately direct. The director is getting
8:05
the performances that he wants. What I think is really interesting, really brilliant
8:11
on Lee's part is that the three main local chapter guys that we get to
8:16
know, they're very distinct, and you have sort of the social climber,
8:22
who you get the sense of he's glommed onto this as a political angle where
8:26
it's like, Okay, this is this is my way up in the world.
8:30
This is the ship I will attach myself to to elevate my position.
8:35
So how how you know how devoted he is quote unquote to the cause very
8:41
much reads is I'm as devoted as what will get me up another rung in
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the ladder. Then you have like the psychotic follower, which is Felix,
8:50
and that's the guy that's you know, of course he's the one that's going
8:52
to carry the bomb because he's just absolutely that dedicated he'd suicide bomb himself if
8:58
he had to. And then when you have the guy where, in all
9:01
honesty, just I think it's Ivanhoe is his name, where he's slack jawed,
9:07
and he's the way that everybody that a lot of people, especially in
9:09
a comic angle, would want to portray, every member of this little cell
9:15
of people. But you get the sense that Ivanhoe in a sense is he's
9:20
the type of guy where he's not quick, he's just happy to be in
9:24
a group at all that will talk to him. And so like I think,
9:28
I think that actually is the most subtle and you know, I don't
9:33
want to say empathetic, because it's not, but like the most subtle and
9:37
genuine aspect that Lee infuses into the film is that they're not all soldiers,
9:43
they're not all fanatics. Some people there's a degree you know, they're all
9:50
part of something heinous and terrible, but there's still stratification within that social group
9:56
itself, just like any other social group. With the John, I want
10:00
to ask you a specific question that's specifically geared towards you. John Mills,
10:05
the man uh so Felix's character portrayed by Josper Puckinen, He did he give
10:13
you Ringo from Tombstone Vibes? Because to me, he did like Michael Bean
10:18
as as Ringo from Tubes. The mustache helps, Yes, but like it's
10:26
not just like not just the muster I could see totally, but also the
10:31
way that he portrays it. I was he was screaming Ringo to me,
10:33
Am I alone in that? It's okay? So you're not alone in that
10:37
because as I play it back at as I play it back in my mind,
10:41
even his eyes, like the look in his eyes get sometimes with the
10:46
thrill of the idea that he's going to kill, Like this is a guy
10:50
where like whatever ideology he lined up with, he was going to be the
10:54
guy that wanted to kill everybody that wasn't part of his group, you know,
10:56
like that the tumblers were always going to align like that for him.
11:00
Now, Jasper Pakin and he he when he auditioned for the role with Spike
11:05
Lee, he did not let Lee know that he was finish and just came
11:11
in using the accent that he used in the movie and just audition that way,
11:16
said like, hello, my name is Jasper, not Yelsputer, but
11:18
Jasper, and you know, like shook his hand and everything like that,
11:22
and you know, did the audition, and it wasn't until they got like
11:26
a conversation going where he said he's like, oh yeah, by the way,
11:28
I'm finished, and then dropped into his real accent, and Spike Lee
11:33
was so blown away. He said, he's like, you have the part.
11:35
This is amazing, this is great. I love stories and with good
11:37
reason. I had no idea that he was finish until pulling up the Wikipedia
11:43
page right before this, Like I had absolutely no clue. So absolutely like
11:50
an amazing job masking the accent didn't slip for a second. So let's talk
11:54
about the gas a little bit since we're kind of like going into that.
11:56
Like, Darren, what did you think about our our our main guy here,
12:01
John David Washington, Like we've seen him in a few things, you
12:05
know, culturally at this point, I'm a huge John David Washington, like
12:11
enough where I will go see a movie because he's in it. Now.
12:13
I loved him and Tenant. I think that's what a lot of people kind
12:18
of first got exposed to him by and everything everything I've seen him in so
12:22
far. I mean I haven't seen his entire filmography, but everything so far,
12:26
I'm like, he is a really good actor, like and is able
12:31
to blend in where I don't see John David Washington like like I might like
12:39
obviously recognize him, like he's not like that nondistinct, but he falls into
12:45
the character where I'm versus like Denzel Washington, like I'm obviously his father.
12:50
But meaning like when you see him in that role, you kind of see
12:54
Denzel first and then you have to like go into the role. Like I
12:58
feel like, you know, John is more of a chameleon in that way.
13:03
But yeah, I mean I love him. Adam Driver, Yeah,
13:07
this is that fun time of Adam Driver's career where he's just kind of popping
13:11
up everywhere and just can do whatever he wants. He can do the little
13:15
indie ficture, he can do the Spikely movie and everything in between. And
13:20
he's a really good actor. Like he plays series, he plays funny.
13:26
He's not afraid to play the funnier roles too, which I really like,
13:31
Like he doesn't take it too seriously. And why anyone who has seen him
13:35
on SNL knows how crazy good he is at comedy. Oh yeah, but
13:39
yeah, but Flip isn't a comedy role. But he, like you were
13:43
saying about tone, he carries that tone that Washington starts where there's times to
13:48
be funny, there's times not to be funny, and there's times in the
13:52
middle. Yeah, Driver, I think and Tristan, I think you said
13:56
this in your review that you put out there, and I'll go ahead and
14:01
echo it. And because I think the same thing is true with Oscar Isaac
14:05
that every time I see Adam Driver in a role that's not the sequel trilogy.
14:09
Now, he was fantastic as Kylo Red. I thought he was a
14:13
high point of the sequel trilogy. Regardless of what you think of the films.
14:15
He was great, absolutely, But every time I see him, I'm
14:18
like man, this is a guy that was better than the material like that
14:22
he rose to start him with, Like, look, let's be honest,
14:26
there's a reason Adam Driver is getting so much varied work and notoriety, Like
14:31
like the big fear that anybody has being in like a big franchise series like
14:37
Star Wars or Star Trek, is is this the role I'm always going to
14:39
be known for? And it's like seeing Adam Driver just in this, I'm
14:43
like, well, yeah, this guy's safe. He's never going to be
14:46
boxed in is He's got such a dynamic range. And what it is is
14:52
his humor is so dry. He has a very I lack a better way
14:56
to say it, but he has a very sort of the way many python
15:01
could be, very very dry, very straight faced humor where it's like if
15:05
you don't know he's joking, like you can't peg him down as joking,
15:09
but you know he's joking sort of thing. And it's all summed up in
15:13
that line where he's like are you jewish? He's like, I don't know,
15:16
am I And it walks out like it's such a great delivery of the
15:20
line. It's such a real world way to just throw that line and walk
15:22
out of the room. I love it. Yeah, so what you mentioned
15:26
earlier, Driver is clearly the Harrison Ford of the sequel trilogy. Yes,
15:33
well it's his son, So I mean that makes low hanging fruit there,
15:37
Tristan low hanging So like okay, So you know, like we talked about
15:41
John David Washington, and we talked about Adam Driver, and you know,
15:45
we talked about Pawkinson and you know, you know Paul Walter Houser who played
15:50
Iivenhold's. There's so many great people in this movie, but I feel like
15:54
we would be remiss if we didn't talk about the one and only tofer Grace
16:00
playing the Despicable David Duke. Now this is you know, David Duke has
16:07
to be the most well known character historical figure in this piece. I'd say,
16:15
right right, yes, yepure is so one thing that I feel like
16:21
you guys would enjoy is that Topah Grace is very much a nerd at heart.
16:26
I've loved him since that seventy show I've watched his career. He said
16:30
that he we don't see him pop up that much. So many people have
16:32
said, like, oh, you know, like what, like why isn't
16:33
tvah Grace a bigger name, and like apparently he went on record and saying
16:37
he's like, I made a lot of money off of that seventy show,
16:40
and I'm fine, you know, like I just do the projects I want
16:44
to do. And so he was, you know, he read as much
16:47
as he could on David Duke Oceans Left, you know. Yeah, he
16:51
watched as many speeches as he could, and he tried to embody David Duke
16:55
as much as possible for this movie. And he was so disgusted with himself
16:59
after that. As a palette cleanser, he took all three Hobbit films and
17:06
edded them down himself into a two hour motion picture. And I just love
17:11
that factoid so much. It's a great way for him to decompress. I'll
17:17
also say songs we're talking about to for Grace that he was in a two
17:21
thousand and four movie with Dennis Quaid called In Good Company. That's a charming,
17:25
little charming little rom com. That hated that I think people would enjoy.
17:29
No, I hated that. I saw that in theaters. I hated
17:30
that. Of course you did. You're dead inside, so I saw it
17:34
in theaters too. Don't pull that card out with me. Grace's journey studying
17:38
Duke must have been fascinating in and of itself, because Duke went through a
17:44
period as well where he supposedly repented from these very things, where he rolled
17:49
back and I think even he represented himself as like a born again Christian or
17:55
something like that for a period of time, but then reverted again and started
18:00
espousing the same sorts of things. Like it's sort of like it, you
18:03
know, sort of like roller coaster ride sort of stuff. And it it
18:07
is interesting because like I remember David Duke working his way into the national consciousness
18:15
here and there when he like ran for president at one point in the eighties,
18:18
I think, or something like that, but he never made it out,
18:21
you know, never made it out of the primaries or anything like that.
18:22
But it was I remember even back then, it was I was I
18:26
was so young, but I remember like the guy would get up there and
18:30
you know, like you know, have these talking points and everything. And
18:33
obviously he didn't like go out there and like give like a clan rally speech
18:37
sort of thing. But there was always something weird about the guy like he
18:41
was he was. He always felt like he was some sort of alien and
18:45
human skin sort of thing. There was something like not you know that that
18:48
didn't click about him. But I remember there was a period of time where
18:52
he supposedly renounced this stuff, but he he then like went back to it
18:56
or something. I haven't watched his life, but I all that to say
19:00
I can understand what Grace must have gone through trying to study the guy and
19:06
get his mannerisms, in his look and his demeanor accurate. And the thing
19:10
is, if you look like at a historical photo, like when I when
19:14
I'm watching the film, I'm like, oh, that's toe for Grace in
19:17
a wig and I mustache, okay. But then i see a historical photo
19:21
of Duke and I'm like, oh, no, that's actually what he Okay,
19:23
that's what he looked like. Yeah, we needed we need greatly reset
19:27
my brain. Yeah, basically it was stunning because he actually looked like him.
19:33
I was like, what what happened? So as I was watching I've
19:40
seen this before. I saw this when this first came out, and when
19:42
I was watching it in preparation for this podcast, memories started coming back to
19:48
me and I actually started texting my mother. I grew up in Urbana champagn
19:52
where the University of Illinois is, and so it's a pretty big It's not
19:56
a big town, but like for a college town, it's okay, let's
19:59
like a one hundred people. And David Duke unfortunately came to my hometown to
20:07
speak, and there was a state trooper who went to my church who is
20:12
a black man, and he had to be on protection duty for David Duke
20:18
speaking in my hometown. And I remember our entire congregation getting up, like
20:26
we all huddled together and prayed for I'm not going to give his name,
20:30
but like prayed for our you know, our our brother, the state trooper,
20:36
you know, and his safety and how horrid it is that he had
20:38
to be on safety detail for David Duke. And then just like to see
20:42
that, you know, John David Washington's character had to do the same exact
20:48
thing. It was. It was pretty crazy the parallels to real life that
20:52
happened and just having that little, little, tiny, little slice of a
20:57
real life connection to that. And so, Darren, what did you think
21:03
about this being based on a true story? Now there is clearly this kind
21:08
of made me think about Unstoppable with John David Washington's dad Denzel where it's based
21:15
on a true story but amped up to eleven because everything after in real life,
21:23
when Ron Stalworth's Adam Driver counterpart got nominated to lead the chapter, when
21:34
they went back to their sergeant, that's when the sergeant pulled the plug.
21:38
He's like, Okay, we're done. We're not doing this anymore. It's
21:41
over. That's the end of the story. Is when that happens, there's
21:45
a whole lot more movie left, and it gets crazier and crazier and more
21:48
active after that, where you see the real Ron Star wars on protective duty
21:53
for David Duke. There's a car chase, there's a bomb, there's death
22:00
structured. It's crazy. None of that's real. So what do you think
22:04
about this being based on a true story but then embellishing it for the third
22:08
act? I mean, yeah, I think we could all, even not
22:12
knowing history, assume that the bomb was an embellishment because that's pretty intense.
22:21
But no, I think I think, I mean to talk about the bomb
22:25
for a second. I think we need it because in real life, people
22:30
like that don't get their come upance, and the bomb gave us as it's
22:37
very much a plot. I mean, it's a very simple plot of like,
22:41
oh no, the bad guys killed themselves. Our hero didn't have to
22:45
do it. They're not a villain, you know they and so that we've
22:51
all seen that so many times in like superhero movies. It's like Batman can't
22:55
kill, but he can not stop the building from falling on you or something
22:59
like that. So yeah, it it definitely had that flavor to it,
23:03
But I think it was cathartic because you're just like, these are terrible,
23:10
terrible people. And but I like the fact that even after that happened,
23:15
it wasn't like and then the clan was gone and life in the seventies was
23:22
better. It's like, no, there's stuff that happens after that. There's
23:26
more cross burning, there's more protests, there's you know, other things going
23:32
on. So it's like, I mean, even juxtaposing into twenty seventeen riots
23:37
and we're capping it with that. So yeah, while the fantastical story elements,
23:44
I think I really enjoyed for the catharticness of it, but it didn't
23:48
pull me out. It wasn't like something, it wasn't out of the realm
23:53
of craziness where I'm like, oh, this, this would never happen.
23:56
It's like, no, okay, I'll accept this, but then we're going
23:59
to kind of go back to this is real life and these are they're really
24:03
people like this, and there's really things you have to deal with. See
24:07
I I I uh, I'm going to differ with you on that specifically,
24:11
because I don't I don't fault Lee for continuing to go right. I think
24:15
a fictional third act is fine. You know, whoever else you want to
24:19
throw under the bus, Oliver Stone, whomever else. The liberties are always
24:22
taken with biopic stuff like this, right, you're you're you're telling a film
24:26
story. I think it got a little greedy with the bomb thing. It
24:30
got it escalated a little too much, and I think it got a little
24:33
jumbled at the end because it became a bit of a a It became a
24:40
bit of a stew where it's like, oh, well, okay, we'll
24:41
throw this in there. Okay, we'll have a we'll have him reveal himself
24:45
on a phone call and and we'll have a bomb go off and we'll have
24:48
this and it's like, if we could have just trimmed that down a little
24:52
bit, I think I think a more subdued even if you have the coda,
24:56
which is sort of a given from Lee at this point. But even
25:00
if you retain the coda, it's a beautiful ending shot of them doing that
25:04
dolly tracking shot, you know, where you go out and see the cross
25:07
still burning there. But if you're even a little more restrained and you get
25:14
the cop who acted so inappropriately at the traffic stop sort of thing, you
25:18
get him and he's gotten in the sting, and then you have the phone
25:22
call where it's like, yeah, well, guess what idiot you're you know,
25:26
you're you're so stupid you fail for this whole thing, ha ha ha.
25:30
But then end just with this lingering sort of thing of what you're talking
25:33
about, Darren, where I might not see anybody blow up or get their
25:37
comeuppance or anything like that, but at the same time, that's the exact
25:40
point of the film, is what you're saying is that you won this round,
25:44
but the war's not over sort of thing. And so I think playing
25:48
into the bomb aspect of it, while it plays fairly well, it doesn't
25:52
serve the same purpose as the theme of the film. I feel like,
25:57
if they got rid of the dirty cop getting his comeuppins. It probably would
26:04
have been a cleaner ending and not as jumbled and as stew as you talked
26:10
about, because I feel like the cop was played by Frederick Weller, who
26:14
plays such a good asshole. I mean, he's just got racist cop written
26:21
all over him. He can just absolutely swim in that role. No offense
26:25
to Frederick Weller. I'm sure isn't a magnificent individual. I'm sure he's a
26:29
great guy, but I feel like there was I was actually feeling that John
26:36
as I was watching it the second time for this podcast, Like the ending
26:40
just kept getting better and better. And I'm not talking about like oh,
26:44
like in the film perspective better and better, but like like, oh,
26:47
they keep going, things keep getting more and more awesome, Like oh,
26:51
the bad guys blew themselves up. Oh the dirty cop totally read him himself
26:55
out, and they were recording the whole time, and then like oh,
26:57
you know like ron Stalworth called David Duke and called him a jerk, and
27:02
like totally I was just like I was like, Okay, Spike doesn't usually
27:07
all the payoff. Yeah, it's all the payoff. I was like,
27:11
it was so it was so much payoff that I was like, the shoe
27:15
has to drop, and I think that's what Lee was going for. Now.
27:18
I'm not saying that excuses it, John, I'm not saying that that
27:21
makes it good. But I do think Lee was trying to go over the
27:25
top with all the payoff, so that when they do something so awesome and
27:30
they accomplish so many things and then then Chief cuts their legs out from underneath
27:34
them and then they see a crossburning at the end, it makes the fall
27:38
that much harder. And I think that's why he went that hard, so
27:42
that the pushback, the whiplash was that much more traumatizing before you get into
27:48
the coda of the Unite the Right rally. Yeah, I just I think
27:53
it. I just think he went too far. You know, I get
27:57
what you're saying, but I I thought it was too jarring, and I
28:00
thought that it would have served a little restraint would have gone a long way.
28:06
I think additionally, you know, I know how many accolades this film
28:11
has, but I started to feel the length as we were approaching the two
28:15
hour mark, and that extra fourteen minutes is noticeable. I'll go ahead and
28:21
say it, but they're like, we've all been conditioned. Like it's not
28:26
like we're born into this world and we're like, two hours is the perfect
28:29
time for a film, right, We come in and it feels right.
28:32
There are long films that feel perfectly right at four hours. There are short
28:37
films that feel perfectly right at eighty two minutes. This film felt like two
28:41
hours and fourteen was. It could have been tighter, basically, And I
28:45
think a lot of the stuff happening in the third act is where you could
28:48
have tightened it, removed and tightened. I think you're absolutely right. I
28:52
think there was I think, you know, I stand by what I said
28:57
about how the Shoe's going to do, and it makes the whiplash that much
29:00
harder. But at the same time, you have Laura Harrier's character of Patrese,
29:07
and she's so anti police, anti pig, and not only is she
29:12
dating someone who she calls a pig, she's now breaking bread with other cops
29:18
and cops who are white, and it's just like, it feels like such
29:23
a weird turn. It feels like fantasy at that point. Now Patrise is
29:29
not a real person, she's you know, she's a character. But yeah,
29:33
I think even if you go that route where you're talking about like breaking
29:37
bread. That gives you the opportunity to have all of the characters they can
29:41
be around the table and say, look at us, we're all together.
29:45
Maybe this is possible, and then go into that sort of thing of like
29:48
but there's still a problem, you know, like they all realize it where
29:52
it's like we are lucky that our little bubble could work together like this,
29:56
why can't that go global? Sort of vibe to it, And I'm not
30:00
trying to rewrite the movie. I'm just saying, like, that's the impulse.
30:04
I think they should go death. I think part of the complexity is
30:07
the fact that it is a based on a true story. I think if
30:11
this was a total fictional rite from the beginning to the end, you probably
30:15
would shave those fifteen minutes off easy because you start to have things like like
30:22
I'm not against development, but I could totally see you know, when Flip
30:27
is going out into the field, that gets simplified to like one visit,
30:33
like because that's where you start to see things compound where it's like, Okay,
30:37
he visits this time, and now he's at this house, and now
30:40
he's going over here, and every single time he's going out as Ron,
30:45
you're adding complexity to the story and you're taking more time to get to your
30:48
final payoff. I can just see that in other movies where that like how
30:55
other movies might simplify a character by taking two real people and combining them.
31:00
I think a lot of the actions of I mean, I loved everything that
31:03
Adam Driver was doing, but I think his particular story of things happening to
31:08
him could have used more consolidation, and I don't think the movie would really
31:14
be that worse for it. I see what you're saying. I probably in
31:18
terms of condensing characters, I probably would have streamlined a lot more of the
31:23
supporting type of characters and collapse them down. I think that, you know,
31:32
I get what you're saying. It's it's tough because the film is juggling
31:37
your protagonist with your co protagonist, and there are times where Driver is commanding
31:45
his scenes so well that it almost causes this double vision happening where it's like,
31:52
well, wait, is he the main You know, he's not the
31:56
main character obviously, but like it draws away very delicate balancing act when you
32:02
have something structured like this. I think the film succeeds largely, but I
32:08
acknowledge your point that there are points where it starts to to lose its grip
32:12
just a little bit. I think one of the issues with that is that
32:15
Adam Driver is such a magnetic presence that it's hard to battle against. It's
32:23
almost too big an actor for the role. It's it's that's a good way
32:29
to put it. I don't know, almost almost. Yeah, I don't
32:31
know if it's it's it's a sense of too big as it like when people
32:35
say like too big, it's just like, oh, Tom Cruise is too
32:37
big of a name for this kind of role, like that kind of thing.
32:40
But like with Adam Driver, I don't think it's so much his name.
32:44
It's and I know I'm not saying that that's what you meant. But
32:47
with you know, too big is I think like he is such a magnetic
32:52
personality. He's so funny, he's so dramatic, Like he's just so good
32:58
and so charming. You want to see more of him, and he's stealing
33:01
these scenes. Yeah, he's just supposed to be a proxy and you're like,
33:06
oh wait, I want to get back to the proxy scene. Can
33:07
I offer that the most difficult thing to do would have been to do what
33:14
might have been most necessary. Forgive me for saying it is cutting the character
33:19
of Patrice and then giving stalwarth more. I mean, I know the dangerous
33:24
Yeah, the dangerous territory that you go into, but the impulse to add
33:29
a love connection for Stalworth that hurts the pacing as well because you never get
33:37
the sense that it's going anywhere. And Tristan, I think you were hitting
33:39
on it earlier where it's like suddenly she's breaking bread with other cops even though
33:44
she hates the pigs, and it's like, I think, in all honesty,
33:46
that's the character where when they got along the script and then later Lee,
33:52
they didn't quite know how to resolve it, and so she never does
33:55
resolve and so she's shoehorned into So then she got along with everybody because it
34:02
was fine, and it's like, Eh, that doesn't feel genuine to everything
34:07
I watched prior to that. Yeah, I'm with you on that one,
34:15
John, I like, I have a I really like the actress. I
34:19
think she did a great job as patrese So and it's so funny that she
34:24
was in Spider Man Homecoming it's so weird that she was. Yeah, she
34:30
played she was the love interest for Peter. My lord, it's been so
34:36
long since I saw that film. I guess I'll have to go back and
34:38
watch again. Yeah, it's it's crazy town that Laura Harrier was love interest
34:43
in Homecoming. It's just it's so hard for me to because every time I
34:46
saw her, I was just like, oh, you should be Oh my
34:49
god, dance. Yeah, okay, sorry, I just took a peek
34:52
at like a picture of her and the thing. I was like, oh,
34:54
right, but please forget me. I've seen Homecoming all of like that
34:59
once and it was years ago. So yeah, it's hard to picture,
35:01
like the fro and the glasses really distract from what she looked like, and
35:06
Coleman coming with the straight hair and no glasses. But yeah, I think
35:08
you're right. It's just like that that need to force in a romantic subplot.
35:14
It just felt so weird because like, even though in this fictional portion
35:17
of the story where you know, Ron saves her life or actually no he
35:23
doesn't really because it just kind of resolves itself, I feel like that kind
35:29
of person would still say, I'm not like, thank you very much.
35:31
For your service. I'm not going to date a cop. And I feel
35:36
like that's how it should have ended. That that's how their relationship should have
35:38
ended, in my opinion. And like you don't have the the dirty cop
35:45
having has come up in because that doesn't normally happen. It didn't happen back
35:47
then, it really happens today. Like yeah, you know they kind of
35:52
have a smiling freeze frame. Is they all clink glasses at the bar after
35:55
getting the dirty cop out. It didn't that far, but it yeah,
36:00
and and that, and that's what it felt like. It was. It
36:01
was too cheesy, is too far, And I feel like I'm talking myself
36:06
out of my rationale that I gave you earlier, John, where like,
36:09
yeah, it makes the fall that much harder when you go back to it.
36:13
But at the same time, it's just like as you're watching it,
36:15
it takes you out of it. You're like, is this a dream sequence
36:19
kind of thing? You know, like it's it's it's it's incredibly strange.
36:22
And I think that that act, that stuff that we talked about probably knocks
36:27
it down at least to have star for me as we as we as we
36:30
get towards the end there. But before we get towards the end, I
36:34
want to talk about the the music. I loved this music. I was
36:39
surprised how much I love this music because I I know that it's It's one
36:45
of those things where you know, you know that Terrence Blanchard is going to
36:50
do a fantastic job. You know, Blanchard is phenomenal at what he does,
36:55
and I've I of course loved what he did with twenty fifth Hour.
37:00
What he did was in twenty fifth Hour was was next level stuff. But
37:04
in Black Clansman he was able to use woodwinds and strings and even electric guitar
37:12
for the main motif and it didn't sound cheesy or overwropped. It just flowed.
37:16
Like, John, what did you have? Do you have any opinions
37:20
about the music of all of the soundtracks that Lee has put together, you
37:23
know, except for the fact that I love do the right thing the music
37:27
that he chose because Publicademy fan right here. But like, I think this
37:31
is the best of Lee's films up to this point. Twenty fifth Hour is
37:36
in the conversation, but this in twenty fifth Hour. Those are score,
37:38
Those are soundtracks that I'll put on and listen to I think that this was
37:45
a terrific score, Like it was so good that I noticed it. That's
37:50
the best praise I can give it. I noticed it without being distracting.
37:53
It wasn't something where like it was better than the film. It wasn't something
37:57
or it was worse the film. It was something that was right for the
37:59
film, but also something that could stand on its own, so like it
38:02
hit right where it needed to hit. I don't need to see the film
38:07
to dig the music that's that's happening. So I think it's a wonderful,
38:10
wonderful soundtrack. Darren, do you have any opinions that you want to share
38:15
on the music. No, I think, like John said, it was
38:21
you know, well noticed. I think also the pop music, pop culture
38:25
music you know, from the era was also used. Well. I mean,
38:29
we're so used to like Guardian movies now just like being rife with like
38:34
every piece of you know, make kitch you in the nostalgia, but this
38:37
one, yeah, it used it sparingly, but it was it was like,
38:42
oh, yeah, that's right, we're in the seventies. Yeah,
38:44
every time we looked at John David Washington, you're until you're in the seventies,
38:46
But yeah, now I think the music. The music was very good.
38:51
It gave me a little bit of inside man vibes. Just know,
39:00
some of the tones that they use at the very very end made me think
39:04
of kind of the main theme from that as like the villain theme. I'm
39:08
not sure why that seemed to connect, but but yeah, good music.
39:13
Can I toss as something out there that I would like to to just bring
39:17
up is the film makes a lot of reference. This is one of the
39:22
few things in recent history that I've ever watched that makes reference to the film
39:28
The Birth of a Nation, which you know, any film NERD knows about.
39:32
You know, it's it's it's a disgusting film, you know when you
39:37
when you when it's politics are laid bare. I've watched it once, barely
39:43
made it through because it's a slog by today's standards. It was odd to
39:49
watch a scene where people were, you know, eating popcorn and like,
39:52
yeah, this is my favorite movie sort of thing, because you know,
39:55
like it's a very jarring thing to think that anybody would approach a silent film
40:00
that way, especially in the seventies. But obviously Lee is using it as
40:05
a tool to illustrate that, you know, that sort of thing leaves an
40:08
indelible mark, and so, I mean, what I take away from it
40:13
is I think Lee took the opportunity to sort of batter that film's role in
40:21
history, because a lot of people make an excuse for it to say,
40:24
well, this is you know, it's a you know, it is a
40:28
breakthrough. It is, in fact, they breakthrough in terms of film narrative
40:31
and structure and stuff like that. But at the same time, its role
40:36
in history is it's basically the American triumph of the Will. And it's like,
40:39
so the question becomes I don't know if I'm reading too much subtext into
40:45
it, but I read that scene of them watching the film as Lee basically
40:49
asking do we really need to give this film accolades anymore? Like we can
40:53
acknowledge that it existed, but can we sort of not make any effort to
40:58
lionize it because it's really not you know, like, Okay, we can
41:02
sort of compartmentalize and maybe we need to move on from it at this point.
41:07
Yeah, that was something that Lee has had a history with because when
41:13
he was a student at NYU, he was so pissed off that the professors
41:19
taught the movie and talked about the movie without addressing its racist message or the
41:24
role that it had in giving the clan kind of a almost rebirth in the
41:31
twentieth century. And so he made a short film and a response to it,
41:37
and it was very critical of the professorship in NYU, and so many
41:43
professors took an offense to the movie that he made, the short film that
41:46
he made, that he almost got expelled. It was a big deal.
41:50
And the only reason why he was saved from expulsion was I think there was
41:54
a faculty vote and they voted to keep him in, which is crazy because
41:58
now he teaches at NYU. And that's how much like because I was taught
42:02
this film. I was taught Birth of a Nation at film School, but
42:06
we were taught the whole package, you know, we were taught about where
42:08
it came from d W. Griffith and how much of a enigma he crazy
42:13
person. Well, yeah, I mean just like he was. He did
42:17
so many I'm not going to talk about Dwagredith, but yeah, like we
42:22
you know, we were Yeah, it's just you know, we were talking
42:24
the whole package. And it's it's so crazy to me that even in nineteen
42:29
eighty you know, this wasn't put in historical context, and it's I'm you
42:35
know, it's it's it's interesting because, like I have, I unabashedly love
42:37
Gone with the Wind. I love that movie. I think it's great.
42:40
It's the highest grossing film of all time adjusted for inflation. No, no,
42:45
no movie will beat it. No movie will It's impossible at this point,
42:47
it's literally impossible to beat its box office. And it's a great movie.
42:52
It's a fantastic movie when put into context. When put into historical context,
42:58
you have to understand when it was made, why it was made,
43:00
and you have to be and I'm not saying that excuses anything. I'm saying
43:02
you have to understand why it was made that way and also criticize why it
43:08
was made that way. But it can still be an interesting piece of art
43:12
with birth of a nation and the fallout that came from it. Yeah,
43:15
that's that's kind of the thing that, like you said, like, do
43:19
we really need to have accolades like this? And I like that Spike,
43:22
I call him Spike, you know, like has that had that option to
43:27
revitalize his hatred of that movie? And we even had a movie came out
43:31
a couple of years ago that used that title, Birth of a Nation about
43:35
a slavery Yes, yes, okay, like reclaiming that title, Darren,
43:40
Now, one of my favorite cameos in this movie is Harry Belafonte. I
43:45
when I first thought, I was just like, oh my god, it's
43:47
Harry Belafonte. And then he started telling the most tragic story whatsoever. So
43:53
sad, I mean just beyond beyond sad, beyond it's it's heart breaking,
43:59
the death definition of heartbreaking. And Lee did such a good job of being
44:04
able to bring him in and borrow his gravitas, and with Belafonte and the
44:08
story that he gave, there's a moment at the end when they all look
44:13
at the camera and they're holding the pictures. Lee gets away with that,
44:17
you know, like he he becomes presentational. There's certain times now like you
44:22
you know, you talked about like when are we going to see the tracking
44:23
shot like on the on the on the platform the platform tracking shot? When
44:27
are we going to see that? You know? There's certain moments when he
44:30
does certain techniques that you're waiting. Yeah, it takes you out of it,
44:35
and but not in a necessarily negative way. What do you think what
44:39
did you think about that scene? What did you think about Belafonte? What
44:43
did you think about the presentational aspect of that with him ending with them looking
44:47
at the camera. I mean, yeah, I mean Bellefonte was just so
44:53
amazing in that you know, the way he's speaking. I mean again,
44:59
I know it's Harry BELLI. I know it's not this person that he's playing
45:02
telling this story, but I believe every word he's saying, Like the way
45:07
he's communicating it, it's like you you were there, Like sure you're acting,
45:12
but I believe you were there, like in the way he's portraying it.
45:15
But on the full question with you know a little bit of the breaking
45:20
the fourth wall. Honestly, the way I look at it is and I'm
45:24
just assuming intentions like this is just a guess, but like you're talking about
45:28
birth of a nation and how things are taught in a way. This gave
45:32
Spike Lee an ability to be like, man, wouldn't it be great if
45:37
film students were watching, or not even film students, just students. We're
45:42
watching someone from this era tell this story. So you know what, I'm
45:45
going to just put it in my movie and then it is it is a
45:50
teachable moment that we are teaching part of our history where but then he does
45:54
it one more where not only are we getting that story, which is you
45:58
know, things that actually have but then the juxtaposition with the Klan like during
46:05
that is you know, like you said, that's what lets the look at
46:09
the camera at the end work because it's kind of a like do you get
46:15
it yet, Like that's that's the look and you know that's not the end
46:19
of the movie. Like I'm glad that wasn't the end of it. Like
46:22
that's the kind of thing you could put at the end and when you're like
46:25
going to fade to black and you know, leave you on that moment.
46:29
There's a lot more plot after that. But yeah, I just I think
46:34
this was Belafonte's last appearance in acting before he passed. I think you're right.
46:39
Yeah, I don't think the look at the camera plays particularly well.
46:47
I agree with you that he gets away with it. I wish he hadn't
46:51
done it, and I wish that because Bellefonte's storytelling is captivating. It is
46:55
magnetic. I mean, God rest his soul, Bellefonte. I mean,
47:00
he he had tremendous press. There's a reason the guy you know, rose
47:04
to prominence as an activist and as an artist, Like he had the full
47:07
package with him, right, And I think it it could have worked better
47:15
woven in without that that look at the camera, because the look at the
47:19
camera is a moment that is it's a it's like a skip on the record.
47:22
I'm enjoying the music and everything's going along, and then I hear that
47:27
little thing. I'm like, h And every time I listen to that record,
47:30
it's going to be that moment where I'm like okay, okay, and
47:31
I had to consciously walk past it. So I don't I don't prefer breaking
47:37
the fourth wall until you are at a specific moment, like a coda,
47:43
where then it's like, okay, look, I'm done with the storytelling part
47:46
of it. Now I'm going to talk to you as a person, not
47:51
as an audience member. That's my you know, is it's such a big
47:54
sin that I'm like, oh, this movie was ruined by that? What?
47:59
No, I just I don't think it plays as well as it could
48:01
have. No, of course, that's that's an entirely valid opinion. Absolutely,
48:06
I think it would have been fine without it. I think it absolutely
48:08
would have been fine without it. John, since I'm still talking to you
48:12
and I'm looking at you, where would you put Lance Reddick hi in this
48:15
film? Woo? You know there are fewer choices than one would believe.
48:21
And the thing is the character that I would put him in as. And
48:24
forgive me for not remembering his you know, his character's full name, but
48:30
it's the Kawami. It is it. Chief Bridges. No, no,
48:37
Chief Bridges, the actual like the chief of the police department. I think
48:40
it's just Chief Bridges. They don't how would that work? But like,
48:45
yeah, it's gonna say. If I get it back policemen in the it
48:50
would require slight rewrite, but I think Lance Reddick is worth it. But
48:52
since we've clicked the guardrails on ourselves, hey, don't you dare don't know?
48:59
No? Hell no, no no. He still calls him the first,
49:05
the first officer, and it's like, but sir, you're the chief,
49:08
doesn't matter, you're the first in our department. No, No,
49:13
I completely that makes a big part of his journey. Slightly rewrite, slight
49:17
rewrite. Gosh, oh right, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. Did I
49:22
say that. It's why am I saying that's who I selected? No,
49:25
I said, under different circumstances, that's who I would have selected. Okay,
49:30
I didn't hear that part because I'm building up. I put it in
49:32
the spreadsheet already. John's what you've said. No, that's not what I
49:36
said. I'm telling a story and now I'm about to turn to the audience
49:38
and break the fourth wall. Okay, that's what I'm doing. And uh
49:44
I you know, honestly, it's it's frustrating because there are there are a
49:50
number of points, but and it's not one that I would want to necessarily,
49:57
but I would probably replace Corey Hawkins and have him play Kwame Terray even
50:02
though Corey Hawkins did a great job. I'm not I'm not taking anything away
50:06
from Corey Hawkins. Every every single time that we talk about where we would
50:10
put Lance Reddick, we have to say, like we have to do the
50:14
Seinfeld esque. But there's nothing wrong with that, Yeah, exactly wrong with
50:17
that. Exactly No, of course, like we don't want to replace anybody
50:22
here, like there's so many there's so many roles with so many great actors.
50:24
But I have the same answer. I I would I would have even
50:28
though Corey Hawkins did a fantastic job, I would I feel like giving Lance
50:34
that that one big speech I think would be would be pretty cool. Uh,
50:40
to see him do that. I think the the only other thing that
50:45
I can think about that would be interesting is like an aged up Harry Belafonte.
50:51
But Bellafonte you can't. You can't replace Bellafonte, Like even even in
50:54
this hypothetical scenario, you can't do that. And so like maybe they're Isaiah
51:00
Whitlock, but then you would lose out on the on his trademark line that
51:05
we get that he gives once again. I don't want to lose Isaiah Whitlock.
51:10
We lost him that partially last time. Yeah, no, i'd say
51:15
so a kawamea with me as well, Darren, What do you think?
51:17
Yeah? I thinking along the same lines. I mean, it would be
51:22
interesting to see Lance, you know, do the role of Bellefonte, But
51:28
you can't. If you have Harry belafa you cannot replace him. I don't
51:31
care what he's doing. And yeah, unfortunately in this movie, because it's
51:36
a police force in nineteen seventy two, you're really limited by who you can
51:42
swap. I think Yeah, we're unanimous. We are with Kwame True his
51:47
change name. But yeah, I think I think Lance would do it differently.
51:54
Again, he's always got that quieter tone, but it's more inten so
52:00
where Komi got it like he was. He's getting people excited, but Lance
52:06
is going to do that in a different way. Still get the same point
52:08
across, But yeah, I think we're all so a third the third unanimous
52:14
Lance Reddick vote here on Houselights, John, give me your give me your
52:21
rating on this film, on this motion picture, I wind up coming in
52:24
at a three and a half. It was a solid four or better until
52:29
it hit those narrative bumps in the third act and it got a little messy
52:34
and then started running a little long, and so I come in at a
52:37
three and a half. But it's a very loving three and a half,
52:40
and I could conceivably see it moving up to a four on a second viewing.
52:45
But I really right now, I'm going a three and a half with
52:47
it. I'm just gonna piggyback off of that. I echo the same thing,
52:52
like, I really like this movie. I think this is really well
52:55
done. I will most likely watch this again the future, but I give
53:02
it a three and a half as well, for the same reasons that you
53:05
stated. I came into this thinking I was going to give it a four,
53:08
but exactly like you said, the third act is just a little bit
53:13
too messy and it knocks down a half star. But I could revisit it
53:15
and go, like, you know what, I can forgive it. I'm
53:17
giving it four stars, but I think, as of right now today three
53:21
and a half stars, but a very strong, loving three and a half
53:24
because I've seen this twice and I have cried twice at the end of this
53:30
movie when we see the Unite the Right footage, it ends so hard with
53:37
such a punch in the face. And Lee knew exactly what he was doing
53:40
with that juxtaposition with footage and his dedication to the woman who died at the
53:46
Unite the Right rally, and they released the movie a year after the anniversary
53:51
of her death. It's just it's so impactful. So, Darren, what
53:55
rating are you giving this film? Now? I'm right there with you,
53:59
guys, But for me, since I don't give half stars, it was
54:02
is it pitch up to a four or down to a three? And I
54:07
think what tips it up to a four? For me. Yes, it
54:12
has its issues. Yes it could be condensed a bit, you know,
54:15
all the things we said, But at the end of the day, like
54:20
this is something and not that this is a tipping stone. But often for
54:23
a movie, if I'm looking for that tipping point, is am I interested
54:28
to watch this again? Like I would watch this again. I would pop
54:30
this in to reabsorb again. Washington's performance is so good. I also kind
54:37
of just want to watch it knowing what happens now, because you know the
54:40
first time you watch something and your kind of guard is up, because you're
54:46
like, how invested do I want to get into this character? Who's going
54:50
to die, who's gonna have, what's gonna happen? You know, who's
54:52
especially in this kind of volatile time. So being able to watch it a
54:57
second time and really enjoy the humor, you know, enjoy all the Michael
55:02
Buscemi shots because I think he's just such a fun little you know, insert
55:07
into this. So yeah, I'm going to give it a four on the
55:10
house light scale. Well, everyone, thank you so much for listening.
55:16
We love doing this, We love doing the show, we love talking with
55:20
each other. We would do this even if we weren't recording it and we
55:22
want to hear froim from you. We know what director do you think we
55:25
should do next? You know? Contact us on Facebook, on Instagram,
55:30
on Twitter, go to I think the best way to get a hold of
55:34
us is honestly through email. I know that sounds old, but if you
55:36
go to the nerd party dot com slash contact, select house Lights from the
55:38
drop down menu, you'll be able to send us an email. Let us
55:42
know what you think of the show and who you think we should do next,
55:45
And if you would want to take the time and go to Apple Podcasts
55:50
and give us a review, we would really really appreciate it. Darren,
55:53
what are we doing next week as we round out our journey into Spike Lee's
55:59
films. That's right, we're rounding out Spike Lee. We're going to go
56:02
into the twenty twenties, but only two years later, to twenty twenties D
56:07
five bloods Here on house Lights, Join the Revolution, Join the nerd Party.