Latest / Drawn of History / An F.B.I. Agent_s Guide to Going Undercover(M4A_128K)

Transcript

An F.B.I. Agent_s Guide to Going Undercover(M4A_128K) · Drawn of History

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: And when did your undercover work start? Did that start
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: from the FBI?
• 0:04
  Speaker 2: No, it started at the sheriff's office. So once I
• 0:07
  Speaker 2: made vice a narcotics investigator, you have an opportunity to
• 0:10
  Speaker 2: go to undercover techniques or technical surveillance. These are classes
• 0:14
  Speaker 2: that they were put on in Columbia, South Carolina at
• 0:16
  Speaker 2: the Criminal Justice Academy. And once you get certified in that,
• 0:19
  Speaker 2: then they'd let you go work undercover. But I mean,
• 0:22
  Speaker 2: just picture me. Now, number one, I don't want to
• 0:25
  Speaker 2: mess up. Number two, You're around a bunch of older
• 0:29
  Speaker 2: guys and gals who are seasoned in street-level buys and
• 0:33
  Speaker 2: all this stuff, and I'm just trying to— you' re going to
• 0:36
  Speaker 2: have to show up. It's not up to them to
• 0:38
  Speaker 2: like me. It's up to me to get them to
• 0:39
  Speaker 2: like me, right? Got it.
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you've got to ingratiate yourself, for sure.
• 0:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's a tough crowd. It usually is. Military,
• 0:46
  Speaker 2: law enforcement, we're pretty tough crowds. So imagine me, number one,
• 0:50
  Speaker 2: not wanting to screw up, number two, being scared to death,
• 0:53
  Speaker 2: and number three, thinking about them watching it. and not
• 0:56
  Speaker 2: wanting to screw up in front of them too. So
• 0:58
  Speaker 2: my Gary Ward and some of those people, you know,
• 1:01
  Speaker 2: but yeah, I mean, the first crack rock I bought,
• 1:05
  Speaker 2: I was probably 275 pounds with low body fat, you know,
• 1:10
  Speaker 2: just jacked. And I'm like, I don't look like I
• 1:13
  Speaker 2: smoke crack unless I just started. I just started back,
• 1:17
  Speaker 2: you know? I buy a cracker, I can drive around
• 1:20
  Speaker 2: for 15 minutes and come back and buy another one.
• 1:22
  Speaker 2: I'm not the guy smoking it, you know?
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: And so something like that, that's a real instance. You
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: either have to come back and buy another one. And
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: would you have to seem cracked out when you came
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: back around?
• 1:31
  Speaker 2: Well, what I was told, because I never smoked crack,
• 1:34
  Speaker 2: was that it would wear off in 15 minutes. That's
• 1:35
  Speaker 2: why they didn't care if you came back and bought again.
• 1:39
  Speaker 2: But they were probably giving me little slivers of soap
• 1:41
  Speaker 2: or something. Who knows? But once I did it, the
• 1:44
  Speaker 2: bug got me. Like the undercover bug, I don't know
• 1:47
  Speaker 2: what it was. It's not lying. It's not like, you know,
• 1:51
  Speaker 2: I used to, like, it's the infiltration. Yeah, I mean,
• 1:53
  Speaker 2: getting to know people. But during the book process, I
• 1:57
  Speaker 2: can't remember what I used to term it as, but
• 1:59
  Speaker 2: I just realized, I go, holy crap, I just love
• 2:01
  Speaker 2: connecting with people. I don't care. Even if I get
• 2:04
  Speaker 2: called out at 3 in the morning because I was
• 2:06
  Speaker 2: considered a good interviewer. So, you know, to either get information,
• 2:09
  Speaker 2: a confession, or, you know, flip them and maybe they
• 2:11
  Speaker 2: work with us. And I would go, and I didn't
• 2:15
  Speaker 2: mind getting called out like that. And I love it.
• 2:18
  Speaker 2: The crazier, the better. I mean, rich, poor, big, tall, smart, dumb.
• 2:22
  Speaker 2: I love it all.
• 2:23
  Speaker 1: Did you guys have groups that would, like, say you
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: get put on an assignment.
• 2:28
  Speaker 2: Is that what it's called, basically?
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 2:29
  Speaker 2: For undercover. Yep.
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: And they could be very small or they could be
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: bigger ones, deeper or shallow ones.
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: Yep.
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: Do they, do you go to like wardrobe and stuff
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: like that? Like, do they have all of that? Like
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: who creates your backstory? How does all that happen? I say, ultimately,
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: ultimately it's on you. Um, and what I teach you,
• 2:46
  Speaker 1: what I, what I know, right?
• 2:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah. You know, you go come out. I, I believe
• 2:50
  Speaker 2: I did used to call the unit and I'd go,
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: when are you going to call me for, because I
• 2:53
  Speaker 2: was big country, even though I'm not big anymore, but they,
• 2:55
  Speaker 2: they'd be like, I'd call headquarters and I'd go, when
• 2:57
  Speaker 2: are you going to let me do one of those
• 2:58
  Speaker 2: wall street jobs? You know, one of these big old
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: tycoon jobs. And they're like, no. And I'm like, I
• 3:03
  Speaker 2: can say buy, sell, You know, put a big hat
• 3:06
  Speaker 2: on and have that boss hog longhorn on the front
• 3:09
  Speaker 2: of my car rolling in. And they're like, no. And
• 3:12
  Speaker 2: I go, fine. Because it's my skill set. My skill
• 3:14
  Speaker 2: set leads me to backwoods with meth heads and white
• 3:17
  Speaker 2: supremacists and whatever else, you know.
• 3:19
  Speaker 1: Oh, yeah, dude. Those are some of my neighbors, probably.
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: What were some of those early spots that you got
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: put into?
• 3:27
  Speaker 2: Well, early on at the sheriff's office, it was, you know,
• 3:29
  Speaker 2: you got to go buy a crack rock, which was
• 3:31
  Speaker 2: terrifying to me. And then they might be picked. Yeah,
• 3:34
  Speaker 2: because I never bought crack. I'm pulling down there. Man,
• 3:36
  Speaker 2: I barely cracked the window, you know. I was just like,
• 3:39
  Speaker 2: what you want? Because they come up around the car.
• 3:41
  Speaker 2: What you want? I'm like, I want a 20, you know.
• 3:45
  Speaker 2: He's like, roll down the window, you idiot. You know,
• 3:47
  Speaker 2: I'm like, I'm sliding money through the.
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: Let me Venmo you.
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: They didn't have no Venmo back then. That'd been good, though.
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: What's your cash at, bro? You know. I'll send it
• 3:58
  Speaker 2: to you right now. Oh, dang, man. That's pretty good.
• 4:01
  Speaker 2: And then type in, what's it for? Drugs. Yeah. Crack. Yeah,
• 4:07
  Speaker 2: but that was the odd stuff there. But I started
• 4:10
  Speaker 2: cutting my teeth. But when I got in the FBI,
• 4:13
  Speaker 2: my first long-term, I mean, I was doing some cameo stuff,
• 4:16
  Speaker 2: which a cameo is basically what it sounds like, like
• 4:18
  Speaker 2: on a TV show. You're there just to help somebody else,
• 4:21
  Speaker 2: or it's a quick, it's not even a full-blown undercover operation.
• 4:24
  Speaker 2: It's just going to be one meet. Like give me
• 4:26
  Speaker 2: an example of that. Like a buy bust or we're
• 4:28
  Speaker 2: going to deliver. L.A. takes off a huge load of dope.
• 4:32
  Speaker 2: It's supposed to be coming to New York. So L.A.
• 4:34
  Speaker 2: gets on the phone with FBI New York. We're like, okay,
• 4:37
  Speaker 2: what does it look like? We want measurements, all this.
• 4:39
  Speaker 2: We would go build the exact same shipment, and then
• 4:42
  Speaker 2: we would deliver it to where it's supposed to go
• 4:44
  Speaker 2: so we can get the bad guys on that end.
• 4:46
  Speaker 1: No.
• 4:47
  Speaker 2: And that's just a one-time. I mean, I'm in a
• 4:49
  Speaker 2: truck with an NYPD detective, and we're just dirtied up
• 4:52
  Speaker 2: and going to deliver.
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: So in that way, were you able to bust both
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: ends of the thing?
• 4:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah.
• 4:57
  Speaker 1: What is the reason that they would do it like
• 4:58
  Speaker 1: that as opposed to just showing up at the actual meet?
• 5:01
  Speaker 2: Because sometimes you don't know if it's getting delivered to
• 5:04
  Speaker 2: a fictitious address or where is it going to go.
• 5:06
  Speaker 2: But we were delivering it, and it depends on the
• 5:10
  Speaker 2: assistant United States attorney because everybody's a little different. So
• 5:13
  Speaker 2: maybe this one says, this is all I need to
• 5:15
  Speaker 2: charge them. Somebody might be a little bit more thorough.
• 5:18
  Speaker 2: They go, no, I want to actually know that they
• 5:20
  Speaker 2: opened the box. Well, how can we do that? Well,
• 5:22
  Speaker 2: let's build something so when we walk away, it's not
• 5:25
  Speaker 2: enough that they take position. We want to walk away
• 5:27
  Speaker 2: and know that they pop the box before we hit it.
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: And how would you guys know that? Would you guys
• 5:31
  Speaker 1: put cameras in the box?
• 5:32
  Speaker 2: Or something. Some tech guy is going to do something.
• 5:35
  Speaker 2: I mean, there's so much technology now. I mean, I
• 5:36
  Speaker 2: don't know what they can do.
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: When dealing with informants, this has got to be pretty fascinating.
• 5:40
  Speaker 1: So you dealt with a lot of informants?
• 5:41
  Speaker 2: A bunch. For me, operating an informant, for me, is
• 5:46
  Speaker 2: a lot like undercover. And they mesh. Because when I'm
• 5:49
  Speaker 2: an undercover... I'm essentially being a source for another FBI agent.
• 5:54
  Speaker 2: It's just that I'm not a criminal. I don't have
• 5:56
  Speaker 2: a felon on my record. I'm actually a bonded law
• 5:59
  Speaker 2: enforcement officer. But I'm still going in and getting the information.
• 6:02
  Speaker 2: I'm still getting the recorded stuff. I'm still that person.
• 6:05
  Speaker 2: So for me, when I'm dealing with sources, I go,
• 6:07
  Speaker 2: you're doing what I do on other cases. But I'm
• 6:10
  Speaker 2: asking you to do it for me.
• 6:12
  Speaker 1: First of all, what people in towns, in regular towns
• 6:15
  Speaker 1: in America, are actually end up being informants or narcs
• 6:17
  Speaker 1: or whatever? Because, dude, when I was in school, you'd
• 6:19
  Speaker 1: always hear, like, Ricky's.
• 6:20
  Speaker 2: A narc or whatever. You know what I'm saying? Narc!
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah, dude, Ricky would, bro, Ricky, it would be like
• 6:25
  Speaker 1: one kid wore the wrong P.E.
• 6:27
  Speaker 2: Outfit.
• 6:27
  Speaker 1: He'd be like, that guy's a fucking narc.
• 6:29
  Speaker 2: You know what I'm saying?
• 6:30
  Speaker 1: Narc was the biggest thing, bro. And people were, and
• 6:33
  Speaker 1: sometimes you'd even find somebody who got a little card
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: from the local police department that said they were helping
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: them and stuff. Like every now and then they had
• 6:42
  Speaker 1: like this, like, I don't even think it was laminated, bro.
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: That bitch got wet and it didn't exist.
• 6:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 6:48
  Speaker 1: But what types of people like in towns are actually,
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: are the first types of people you would get as
• 6:54
  Speaker 1: informants for, for certain things? Or is that not even
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: a real thing? Like, or like at a high school?
• 6:59
  Speaker 1: I'm just trying to think where, like.
• 7:00
  Speaker 2: I would say it depends on what violation you're working. Okay.
• 7:04
  Speaker 2: If I'm working gangs and I'm working transnational organized crime,
• 7:09
  Speaker 2: which is what I worked for a long time. Well,
• 7:10
  Speaker 2: then maybe I'm going to try to find and develop
• 7:13
  Speaker 2: a source that can give me information on this, like
• 7:16
  Speaker 2: this car, this, whatever, this, this group has been bringing
• 7:19
  Speaker 2: in drugs that we've heard about, or what if it's
• 7:21
  Speaker 2: multiple robberies? We're trying to find somebody that knows something about,
• 7:24
  Speaker 2: have you heard any scatter? I mean, any, any skeletal butt?
• 7:27
  Speaker 2: Maybe you, maybe you talk to ladies of the night,
• 7:30
  Speaker 2: some prostitutes, escorts and say, Hey, if you know, you know,
• 7:34
  Speaker 2: things like that. But You can also be a highfalutin case.
• 7:38
  Speaker 2: I'm saying highfalutin because look at me. I'm not highfalutin.
• 7:42
  Speaker 2: But it could be like an espionage case. It could
• 7:44
  Speaker 2: be like a white-collar case. And maybe the sources for
• 7:48
  Speaker 2: those are very upstanding members of society. And you can
• 7:51
  Speaker 2: go talk to them and say, hey, I was wondering
• 7:53
  Speaker 2: if you could give me some information. They'd be like,
• 7:55
  Speaker 2: I would love to give you some information. Me, when
• 7:58
  Speaker 2: I say developing sources, when I was working, I'm talking
• 8:02
  Speaker 2: about going to somebody that you may never would hang
• 8:05
  Speaker 2: out with, that you may think is a piece of
• 8:07
  Speaker 2: trash or not, but those people have never liked law enforcement.
• 8:11
  Speaker 2: And I'm talking to that person, and after a conversation,
• 8:14
  Speaker 2: I've heard things, you hear things like, man, for a cop,
• 8:18
  Speaker 2: you know, for a cop, you're not that bad. Or,
• 8:20
  Speaker 2: I didn't know there were cops like you. So you just,
• 8:24
  Speaker 2: it's on you, but yeah, I mean, that's the way
• 8:26
  Speaker 2: I would do it. And I do think it goes
• 8:27
  Speaker 2: hand in hand. But being if you don't know in
• 8:30
  Speaker 2: my opinion if you don't know how to develop and
• 8:33
  Speaker 2: operate sources um i don't think you're probably going to
• 8:37
  Speaker 2: be an awesome undercover.
• 8:38
  Speaker 1: Did you ever have to pick like uh disguises or
• 8:41
  Speaker 1: was there like a war like yeah did somebody help
• 8:44
  Speaker 1: like fit you for a scene did they give you
• 8:46
  Speaker 1: a photo or like a look book like hey here's
• 8:49
  Speaker 1: what you can wear and not wear were there like
• 8:51
  Speaker 1: was there ever a thing where you couldn't wear a
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: certain patch like if it was like a a certain
• 8:56
  Speaker 1: gang affiliation or something.
• 8:57
  Speaker 2: Like, how did you manage that? Take me into a
• 8:59
  Speaker 2: little bit of that. It really comes down to the
• 9:00
  Speaker 2: intelligence of the case team that's bringing you in. Hopefully
• 9:04
  Speaker 2: they've done their due diligence. And as an undercover, you
• 9:07
  Speaker 2: can ask those questions. Now, is there a wardrobe department? No.
• 9:10
  Speaker 2: But do we have things in the undercover program where
• 9:13
  Speaker 2: maybe you could get some jewelry and stuff like that? Yeah,
• 9:16
  Speaker 2: we've got that. But as far as like wearing the
• 9:19
  Speaker 2: wrong patch or not, that's going to be, again, ultimately
• 9:22
  Speaker 2: it's on me as the undercover. But if I want
• 9:27
  Speaker 2: to know, like if I ask for a weapon that
• 9:33
  Speaker 2: doesn't come back to law enforcement, well, I shouldn't just
• 9:35
  Speaker 2: take their word for it. I probably need to run
• 9:37
  Speaker 2: that number in NCIC to make sure it doesn't come
• 9:39
  Speaker 2: back to FBI Quantico because I've been on cases that
• 9:42
  Speaker 2: that happened.
• 9:43
  Speaker 1: Like what does that mean?
• 9:43
  Speaker 2: Like it means like, so you got serial numbers on
• 9:46
  Speaker 2: your weapons. If they check that in NCIC, it's going
• 9:48
  Speaker 2: to come back to something. Right. Well, sometimes bad people
• 9:51
  Speaker 2: have contacts that can run that kind of stuff. whether
• 9:53
  Speaker 2: it's through corruption or whatever. Oh, I see.
• 9:55
  Speaker 1: So if your weapon has your number on it and
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: they see that.
• 9:57
  Speaker 2: And they run it and it says, oh, this is
• 10:00
  Speaker 2: a Glock 22 FBI Quantico.
• 10:03
  Speaker 1: Right. And that's on you.
• 10:04
  Speaker 2: So I was undercover and I had requested a fully
• 10:07
  Speaker 2: covert weapon, whatever. It was supposed to be working with
• 10:10
  Speaker 2: ATF and everything. And I was probably six months in
• 10:15
  Speaker 2: to the undercover. And somehow I was on the call
• 10:18
  Speaker 2: with Quantico and– asking how we get the– it's drawn out,
• 10:23
  Speaker 2: but basically the guy's like, whoa, at that point in time.
• 10:27
  Speaker 2: He goes, we really don't have any covert weapons. And
• 10:29
  Speaker 2: I looked, I said, go run this weapon right now
• 10:31
  Speaker 2: to the trainee. And they ran it and it said
• 10:33
  Speaker 2: FBI Quantico. And I'm like, bro, I mean, I could
• 10:37
  Speaker 2: have just carried my normal weapon. That goes back to
• 10:40
  Speaker 2: Quantico too, but really it's on you. But for me,
• 10:44
  Speaker 2: I'll tell you what I have done. If I go
• 10:47
  Speaker 2: in and I meet a source– I'll ask them. Like
• 10:49
  Speaker 2: sometimes my beard's this long and I have long hair,
• 10:52
  Speaker 2: which is getting less and less now. I'm going to
• 10:56
  Speaker 2: be thinning out here even more soon. Looks healthy, man.
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: But the thing is they'll go, I'll ask them, hey,
• 11:05
  Speaker 2: I was on an undercover. Meet the person. We talk
• 11:08
  Speaker 2: for hours. I'll come back and meet them again because
• 11:10
  Speaker 2: I'm trying to figure out, hey, am I the right fit?
• 11:12
  Speaker 2: Is this going to work? Because we're going to be
• 11:14
  Speaker 2: basically undercover. Yeah. We're basically going to be undercover together.
• 11:17
  Speaker 2: And I'll say, does this work? And they would look
• 11:19
  Speaker 2: and go, nah, man, that's too dirty. We're rednecks, but
• 11:23
  Speaker 2: we're clean-cut rednecks. And I said, well, what do you do?
• 11:25
  Speaker 2: I said, how about like a nice goatee? Is that
• 11:27
  Speaker 2: a normal haircut? They're like, yeah, that'd be perfect, man.
• 11:28
  Speaker 2: Button-up shirt, untucked. I'm like, cool. Now, I'm just doing
• 11:33
  Speaker 2: that so I don't look like way out of place.
• 11:36
  Speaker 2: I'm mirroring them. Got it. But for me, I always
• 11:40
  Speaker 2: stuck really close to who I was. I was always Scott,
• 11:44
  Speaker 2: different last name. But I may or may not have
• 11:46
  Speaker 2: played football in college. I may or may not be
• 11:49
  Speaker 2: a musician and a singer. May or may not be
• 11:50
  Speaker 2: married with kids for your degree. But you can bet
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: most likely I ride motorcycles and I lift weights. Got it.
• 11:57
  Speaker 2: And then you just kind of go from there. Because
• 11:59
  Speaker 2: my jokes are literally the same. I'm just twisting them
• 12:03
  Speaker 2: because it's real to me. I tell the true story.
• 12:07
  Speaker 1: Have you ever been in an instance where you weren't
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: even the best choice for the role, but you ended
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: up in it?
• 12:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely. We call it. I mean, you can word
• 12:15
  Speaker 2: it a right case, wrong undercover, right undercover, wrong case.
• 12:20
  Speaker 2: But I had a buddy of mine, and he was running.
• 12:22
  Speaker 2: He's an undercover as well, but he was the case agent.
• 12:25
  Speaker 2: And he was running this undercover on like a dirty
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: doctor selling pills or giving pills for sex, stuff like that.
• 12:32
  Speaker 2: The idea was, because of my background, to come in
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: and be the closer to get this doctor on drug trafficking, right?
• 12:39
  Speaker 2: Got it. And I came in, and I basically said
• 12:41
  Speaker 2: I'm a competitive power lifter, but I'm getting older. Bills
• 12:45
  Speaker 2: are getting tight and I need something for the pain
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: kind of thing. I was trying to do that because
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: they had already had a bunch of reporting of like
• 12:50
  Speaker 2: this doctor, like, you know, a woman goes in for
• 12:54
  Speaker 2: a visit. He prescribes her a bunch of pills or whatever.
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: She leaves and there's a used condom in the trash can.
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: Got it. And you're like, okay, all right. And then
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: maybe somebody reports, hey, this doctor tried to do this
• 13:06
  Speaker 2: to me or something like that. So now I'm coming
• 13:08
  Speaker 2: in as a new patient and I knew a lot
• 13:10
  Speaker 2: of the pill mill stuff because I was working it
• 13:12
  Speaker 2: as a case agent as well. Um, but, um, yeah, uh,
• 13:16
  Speaker 2: I was just the wrong guy. Like I did the
• 13:18
  Speaker 2: first meet. And then the second time I came back,
• 13:20
  Speaker 2: he starts telling me, well, you know, Scott, sometimes people
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: come in here and they get these and they go
• 13:25
  Speaker 2: sell them on the street. And I was like, I
• 13:27
  Speaker 2: never said I was going to do that. I said,
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: I'm in pain, man. He's like, what? And I, I
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: left the meeting that day and I went to hand
• 13:35
  Speaker 2: over the recording to the case agent. And it was
• 13:36
  Speaker 2: my friend. And I told him, I said, I'm not
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: the right guy, man. You don't even need to send
• 13:40
  Speaker 2: me back in there. I said, I don't know what
• 13:42
  Speaker 2: it is, but he does not like me.
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: It just wasn't fitting. Can you feel when something doesn't fit? Yeah. Yeah.
• 13:48
  Speaker 2: Because if you, yeah, you can feel it, especially if
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: you're trying to force it. You know, and I tried
• 13:54
  Speaker 2: a little bit that day with that guy, but he
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: was not something about me. I don't know whether he
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: thought I was a snitch or a fed or something
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: or something, but he didn't, maybe he didn't feel he
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: could control me. Um, but I was not the right
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: guy for the job.
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: What are some things as an undercover, just like general
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: rule of thumb that you don't want to do is like,
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: do you not want to talk much? Like, is there like,
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: you know, or I guess, is it case by case basis,
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: I guess?
• 14:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, it depends on, I mean, there's actually
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: attorney general guidelines on what we can and can't do.
• 14:20
  Speaker 2: Like we can't be involved in an act of violence
• 14:22
  Speaker 2: unless it's self-defense. Um, you can't like instigate the crime,
• 14:28
  Speaker 2: you know, cause I'd be entrapment, you know what I mean? Um,
• 14:32
  Speaker 2: instigate and run the crime. And then all of a
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: sudden now you're under arrest. You know, have there ever.
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: Been romantic things that happened along the way where it's like, oh,
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: there's almost temptation for that. Like, or you met somebody
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: and you're like, well, shit, I'm spending half my days
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: in this environment.
• 14:44
  Speaker 2: You know, uh, I've been in situations where, yeah. Uh,
• 14:51
  Speaker 2: but you don't do that. You don't do that. I've
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: seen other things where, you know, maybe people fall in love.
• 14:57
  Speaker 2: It's just think about it like this. If you've got
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: my luck and I'm doing a deep undercover, uh, and
• 15:01
  Speaker 2: I'm at this bar, and you start hitting on me,
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: and I actually was a single man, and we end
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: up hooking up and dating, my luck, that's going to
• 15:11
  Speaker 2: end up being the target sister or something. You know
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: what I mean?
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: Is that frowned upon? Can you legally do that, though?
• 15:17
  Speaker 2: No, it'd be a policy violation for sure. Okay, got it. Yeah,
• 15:20
  Speaker 2: it'd be a policy violation. Now, maybe in like, if
• 15:23
  Speaker 2: you go super I spy, I don't know. I don't
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: know all the CIA's rules. I don't know MI5 and
• 15:28
  Speaker 2: MI6' s rules, but Yeah, that would be, it would just
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: be a bad foundation, period. Even if that person ended
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: up not being, I'd rather you bring in your real
• 15:41
  Speaker 2: wife who isn't also an undercover FBI agent.
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: Then y'all just be you, you know, if you got that.
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: Do you think that most of us interact with undercover agents?
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: officers or agents within our lives without even realizing it?
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: I wouldn't say that because literally, like in the biker world,
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: they call it like you got the one percenter biker clubs.
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: They say that if you're an undercover in law enforcement,
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: you're a one percenter because there's like one percent of
• 16:10
  Speaker 2: law enforcement that does undercover work. I see.
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: So you don't think most of us have interacted probably
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: with an undercover agent without realizing it?
• 16:15
  Speaker 2: You might have based on some of your history. Oh, yeah.
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: You know what I mean? Depending on where I'm at,
• 16:20
  Speaker 2: I might have.
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: I'm surprised we haven't met.
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: I know, right? But if I was at the Oak
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: Ridge Laboratory, no, I'm probably not running into an undercover,
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: I don't think. I don't know. Maybe if you're trying
• 16:32
  Speaker 2: to sell classified material, then yeah. But I wouldn't. I wouldn't.
• 16:39
  Speaker 2: I don't walk around like that. Yeah, I don't.
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: But it's not that common that most of us just
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: regular people have interacted with the undercover agent in our lives.
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: I don't think so.
• 16:46
  Speaker 2: You don't think so? I don't think so.
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: Got it.
• 16:48
  Speaker 2: But I don't think paranoid either. There are some people
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: who are like, what if everybody in this room is
• 16:52
  Speaker 2: an intelligence officer? I'm like, what if they are? Right.
• 16:55
  Speaker 2: They're trying to get information. I'm trying to get information.
• 16:57
  Speaker 2: Buy me a drink. Yeah. You know, pay for this steak.
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: I get a call because you're starting to get known.
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: If you're role playing at the school and whatever, What.
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: Do you mean at the school? So there's an undercover school?
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: To get certified. Just like to become an FBI agent.
• 17:14
  Speaker 2: I mean, it's not five months. Wait, hold on.
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: So there's an undercover school, an academy.
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: Two weeks, yeah.
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: And you learn how to be undercover. Well, you got
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: to pass.
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: Okay, hold on. It's not so much that you're learning.
• 17:24
  Speaker 2: It's just that you're learning techniques and stuff. But, Jed,
• 17:26
  Speaker 2: you got to pass.
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: And what are some of the techniques you learned there?
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: Sorry that I didn't grasp onto this before. Is it
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: almost acting teachers that are there teaching you?
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: No, no. Okay. Won't give away everything for the school,
• 17:38
  Speaker 2: but I'll give away what's kind of out there. The
• 17:41
  Speaker 2: FBI undercover school is considered one of the toughest certification
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: schools the FBI puts on. Some say it is the toughest.
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: I'll say HRT is the toughest because HRT is tier
• 17:51
  Speaker 2: one SWAT on steroids. It's two weeks as well for
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: the trial.
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: What does it mean, HRT?
• 17:57
  Speaker 2: Hostage rescue team. Okay. So you can be SWAT in
• 18:01
  Speaker 2: all your divisions. Like I was SWAT in McAllen, San
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: Antonio division. I was SWAT in Knoxville. but HRT is
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: at Quantico, based out of Quantico. Hell yeah. Hostage rescue team,
• 18:11
  Speaker 2: and I mean, they're hot too. They train with the
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: tier one teams. It's high speed, my high speed, you know, helicopters,
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: all that stuff. But that one is also a two-week tryout,
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: very physical and mental. A lot of times, at least
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: from what I understand.
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: HRT is?
• 18:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah, HRT is like, you just want to get through
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: the two weeks without getting injured. And you went through it? No, no.
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: I was going to. If I wouldn't have got out
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: of New York City, I was going to die at down,
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: to probably around 250 pounds because there's a lot of running.
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: And I was going to go try out. Does that
• 18:40
  Speaker 2: mean I would have made it? No. A lot of
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: people don't ever– I don't know. I haven't known anybody
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: that made it their first time. Wow. But the undercover
• 18:47
  Speaker 2: school is two weeks.
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah, what are some of the course– what are you guys.
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: So you're going to– the gist is this. Big on
• 18:56
  Speaker 2: sleep deprivation. No days off. That sleep deprivation brings out weaknesses, right?
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: So you're going to be getting training during the day.
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: I might teach a block on the outlaws. I might
• 19:07
  Speaker 2: teach a block on white supremacy cases that I've worked.
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: Maybe somebody else is teaching. Maybe it's the legal person, whatever.
• 19:13
  Speaker 2: You're going to get training during the day. And at night, generally,
• 19:16
  Speaker 2: the way it was run when I was in it,
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: at night you're going to be doing role-playing scenarios. You're
• 19:21
  Speaker 2: probably going to get two a night, and everybody goes
• 19:23
  Speaker 2: through every scenario. That way there's no liability. In other words,
• 19:26
  Speaker 2: you can't say, hey, that person's background is drugs, and
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: you only gave them undercover drug scenarios. Got it. You know?
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: What's like an example scenario you would probably go through?
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: They probably wouldn't want me to say. That's fair. Because
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: it'll give it away. That's fair. But just say this.
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: You're getting tested. You may die. You may die miserably
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: in a scenario. And then you got to turn around
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: and go, all right, buck up, little camper. we're still
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: got one more for the night you know well.
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: If you go over two in one night bro oh
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: yeah yeah.
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: And then and i will tell you this uh i
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: got certified in 02 2002 i started role playing in
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: 2003 and i probably only missed a handful of schools
• 20:03
  Speaker 2: in my 23 years of the fbi and i never
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: knew or heard of a 100 graduation rate that doesn't
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: mean that it's hazing and none of that stuff. It
• 20:11
  Speaker 2: just means that it's a great certification school and not
• 20:15
  Speaker 2: everybody's cut out for undercover. Understood.
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: What do you think is the number one thing that
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: blows an officer's cover?
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: Blowing the cover? Oh, man. There could be, I mean,
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: bad backstopping, having a bad legend. You slipping up and
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: not knowing your stuff. Like your story or whatever. Yeah,
• 20:35
  Speaker 2: you need to know it. Picture if you're undercover for
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: two years. I'll meet you on day one. Whatever I
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: say right now, I need to remember two years from now.
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: So that's why I stuck close to who I was.
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: Bro.
• 20:46
  Speaker 2: And as I got older now, early in the game, oh, man,
• 20:49
  Speaker 2: I was making like I'd be undercover and I'd be
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: signing my name Scott Payne. And undercover, the P would
• 20:54
  Speaker 2: form and I'd go, I'm Callaway. But then I'd be
• 20:58
  Speaker 2: home as Scott Payne and I would sign Scott Callaway.
• 21:00
  Speaker 2: And you're like, dadgummit. But lucky for me, I ended
• 21:03
  Speaker 2: up getting better at it. And by the time I
• 21:05
  Speaker 2: was– when I retired, I think I had like eight phones.
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: I had like one FBI, one personal, everything else was undercover.
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: Nuh-uh.
• 21:11
  Speaker 2: And I just get so– I got so good because
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: I'd be like– or I don't want to say good
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: because it sounds like I'm chest beating. But it just–
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: it was– Easier for me to do. Like the phone
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: would ring and I'd see the skull and the color
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: and I'd go, okay, that's that case. What's up, brother?
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: How's it going? Blah, blah, blah. You know, that's that case. Yeah.
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: Dang, man.
• 21:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: So at one time you were actively involved in how
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: many cases?
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: Oh man. So there are, again, I'll say it again.
• 21:38
  Speaker 2: There are men and women out there that have done
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: way more than me. For sure. But I will say
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: that for my 23 years in the FBI, if you
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: were a full-time undercover, like Like, you're not doing anything
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: else but undercover? That was pretty rare as an FBI agent. Because,
• 21:53
  Speaker 2: as I said, I was still expected to run cases
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: and do whatever back in my office.
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: Right. But you were working full-time undercover.
• 22:01
  Speaker 2: There was, I know, I can remember twice. Maybe there
• 22:04
  Speaker 2: was a third time that I was listed full-time undercover
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: in the FBI. But all the other times, it might
• 22:08
  Speaker 2: be two weeks undercover, but I go back home. And
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: then I'm a case agent again and I've got to
• 22:13
  Speaker 2: run the training for everybody and firearms and tactics.
• 22:17
  Speaker 1: You ever do like chef work? You ever been in
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: like a, cause I could also see you. I just
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: thought of this, man. I'm thinking of ways I could
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: see you doing undercover and I'm thinking dessert chef.
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: With a hat?
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: Yes, with a hat. Because a lot of those guys,
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: you know, they'll have a beard, they'll have some facial hair,
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: they'll have tattoos cause it's a lot of art.
• 22:35
  Speaker 2: Oh no, I can put the hairnet on. Totally.
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: It's artistic people that are our kind of chefs. You
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: know what I'm saying? It's like, That's kind of like
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: an artistic.
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: Sort of style.
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that frosting pipette.
• 22:46
  Speaker 2: You like it to pepper? You want the pepper?
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: You put a set of handcuffs on an eclair, you know? Yeah,
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: I could see you doing something like that.
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: All law enforcement thief, but pretty good.