Latest / The You Project / #1619 The Ozzy Osbourne Gene - Dr. Bill Sullivan

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#1619 The Ozzy Osbourne Gene - Dr. Bill Sullivan · The You Project

0:00
Speaker 1: I get a team. Welcome to another installing the you project.
0:03
Speaker 1: My favorite geek, my favorite toxicologist, pharmacologist, genetic guru, Professor
0:09
Speaker 1: Bill is back. Doctor Bill is back. How are you man?
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Speaker 2: I'm doing great, Craig, thanks for having me back on.
0:17
Speaker 1: Yeah. We love chatting with you. Now. I'm just going
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Speaker 1: to I'm terrible at promoing. I'm the worst of promoing
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Speaker 1: my own shit, and I'm equally as bad at promoting
0:26
Speaker 1: doctor Bill. So I'm going to tell you go get
0:28
Speaker 1: his book. I'm halfway through it. I'm listening to it.
0:30
Speaker 1: I said i'd be finished it. I full disclosure. I'm
0:34
Speaker 1: under the pump with my PhD, and I've been doing
0:36
Speaker 1: lots of travel and speaking, so I have not heard
0:38
Speaker 1: all of it, but it is great. It is called
0:42
Speaker 1: please to meet me, jeans, germs and the curious forces
0:45
Speaker 1: that make us who we are. And you know, listeners
0:48
Speaker 1: that I don't tell you to or I don't do
0:51
Speaker 1: a call to action unless I mean it. So I
0:53
Speaker 1: never promote anything that I have not tried or read
0:57
Speaker 1: or experienced, and I never promote anything knowingly are intentionally
1:03
Speaker 1: that I don't think is actually worth investing your time
1:06
Speaker 1: or energy or money in and I hate selling stuff,
1:08
Speaker 1: but I think it is a really good investment. So yeah,
1:12
Speaker 1: before we get underway, I really liked the book. I
1:15
Speaker 1: wish you had read it. That's my only complaint. But
1:18
Speaker 1: I love the book. It's not even a complaint. I
1:21
Speaker 1: like your voice. Why didn't you do it?
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Speaker 2: That was outside of my control. I didn't have the
1:27
Speaker 2: option to do it. I would have gladly have read
1:31
Speaker 2: the book for the audio version. I think that would
1:33
Speaker 2: have been fun. But I will say the person they
1:37
Speaker 2: got to do it did a great job. There's a
1:39
Speaker 2: lot of scientific jargon that a lot of people mispronounce
1:43
Speaker 2: or simply don't know.
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Speaker 1: So they did a good job. They did do a
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Speaker 1: good job. I will say that they did a good job.
1:48
Speaker 1: I'm a little biased because I know you and I
1:50
Speaker 1: like your voice, and I want to hear your words
1:52
Speaker 1: in your voice. So but you know, it's like, do
1:57
Speaker 1: you know what I love? There's a few people that
1:59
Speaker 1: come on this show that really you know, I'm not Australia.
2:03
Speaker 1: Have you ever heard the Australian term pissing in your pocket?
2:07
Speaker 2: I can imagine what it means.
2:09
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, well, pissing in your pocket means kind of
2:13
Speaker 1: you know, flattering you unnecessarily or you know, without sincerity.
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Speaker 1: But so I'm not pissing in your pocket when I
2:20
Speaker 1: say that, there's probably three or four people in the
2:24
Speaker 1: world who are I love that are very very high
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Speaker 1: level of what they do. And you have this capacity
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Speaker 1: to break down things in a way that us mere
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Speaker 1: mortals can understand. And I love that you know that
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Speaker 1: you can share science and research, and you know the
2:41
Speaker 1: complexity of the mind and the body and biology and
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Speaker 1: you know genetics and epigenetics in a way that not
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Speaker 1: only can we understand it, we can then go do
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Speaker 1: something about it. And I think that's as a science communicator,
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Speaker 1: that's something of a superpower. So you know, is that
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Speaker 1: something that that's just your Is that just you or
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Speaker 1: is that something that you consciously developed, that ability to
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Speaker 1: share science? And I kind of use a friendly way.
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Speaker 2: Well, there's a lot of reasons why I dove into
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Speaker 2: that aspect of things rather than just like staying locked
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Speaker 2: away and being a lab rat and churning out paper
3:20
Speaker 2: after paper for technical audiences. I kind of, you know,
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Speaker 2: that's obviously important and that's a main component of what
3:28
Speaker 2: I do. But taxpayers fund this research Craig in our country,
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Speaker 2: and they're not going to understand these highly technical journals
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Speaker 2: that you usually need to pay a huge amount of
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Speaker 2: money just to read. So I view it as an obligation,
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Speaker 2: you know, to use their tax dollars which fund my
3:45
Speaker 2: research in public biomedicine. I view it as part of
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Speaker 2: my responsibility to tell the average taxpayer what they're paying for,
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Speaker 2: what they're getting for their money, and hopefully they appreciate
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Speaker 2: the hard work that people in my lab that are
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Speaker 2: that are trying to achieve, you know, trying to make
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Speaker 2: some headway and infectious disease and better understand how genes
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Speaker 2: are regulated and activated under different circumstances, and a lot
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Speaker 2: of a lot of science comes out that is just
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Speaker 2: truly fascinating and by the same token, really important because
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Speaker 2: it's guiding political policy more and more. And I took
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Speaker 2: it as a you know, like like another extension of
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Speaker 2: the duties of my position as a as a professor
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Speaker 2: at a public university. It's partly my job to communicate
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Speaker 2: what is going on to people who vote and have
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Speaker 2: a say in these political policies. I want them to
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Speaker 2: understand the issues so that they have a better handle
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Speaker 2: on you know how to proceed.
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Speaker 1: Yesterday I did a an open to the public or
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Speaker 1: public Like most of my talking, most of my speaking
5:03
Speaker 1: is a corporate but about six times a year, maybe twelve,
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Speaker 1: It depends on the year. It depends on my other workload.
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Speaker 1: But I do public stuff. Yesday did a public workshop
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Speaker 1: called Understanding Me, and it was all around trying to
5:19
Speaker 1: you know, it was just opening the door on trying
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Speaker 1: to understand the self. You know that physically, mentally, emotionally, socially, personally, professionally.
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Speaker 1: Who am I? How am I? Why am I the
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Speaker 1: way I am? What do I think the way that
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Speaker 1: I do? Why do I process data the way that
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Speaker 1: I do? Where do my stories come from? Where do
5:38
Speaker 1: my beliefs come from? You know? What am I doing
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Speaker 1: right now that's working? What am I doing bill that's
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Speaker 1: not working? What's my data telling me? What's my life
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Speaker 1: telling me? What's my body telling me? You know? And
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Speaker 1: it was not you know, there were more questions and solutions,
5:56
Speaker 1: but it's more about provoking people and getting people to
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Speaker 1: think about you know, why do you simultaneously say to
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Speaker 1: me that you want to be fitter and healthier and
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Speaker 1: operate better on a physiological level. And also on the
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Speaker 1: same day, put shit in your body that's fucking toxic.
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Speaker 1: And now this is not self loathing, this is just awareness.
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Speaker 1: So what is that about? How well do you think
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Speaker 1: we understand ourselves? You know? And the self that we're
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Speaker 1: talking about is multi dimensional. Obviously, it's more than physiology.
6:27
Speaker 1: It's more than psychology, it's more than sociology. It's more
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Speaker 1: than emotions, it's more than behaviors. It's like, it's a
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Speaker 1: multitude of things, you know. But how well do you
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Speaker 1: think we understand ourselves? Is part one? And part two
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Speaker 1: is how do we understand ourselves better? Which I know
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Speaker 1: that that's another book, But where do we start?
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Speaker 2: Well, I was going to ask you how long your
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Speaker 2: workshop was, because it could take a lifetime. I'm afraid
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Speaker 2: to understand just yourself, let alone other people. But that's
7:00
Speaker 2: precisely why I wrote the book, Greg, is because I
7:03
Speaker 2: wanted to get a better understanding of some of the
7:06
Speaker 2: quirks in my own personality, some of my own idiosyncrasies
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Speaker 2: that are relatively unique to me that a lot of
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Speaker 2: other people don't do. I didn't understand what the basis
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Speaker 2: for that difference was, so I plunged into the research,
7:21
Speaker 2: utilizing my background in the sciences to try to read
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Speaker 2: all these psychology, sociology papers, genetics papers, all these other
7:30
Speaker 2: things to try to come up with some sort of
7:34
Speaker 2: simplistic understanding of what makes the human body tick. And
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Speaker 2: unfortunately it's not a simple concept. And this is why
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Speaker 2: some people spend virtual lifetimes in meditation practices trying to
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Speaker 2: figure out what the human self really is, what constitutes it,
7:54
Speaker 2: what is it here for? How can we make it better?
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Speaker 2: These are really important questions. I try and tried my
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Speaker 2: best to simplify the complexity of human self in that book.
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Speaker 2: There's a lot of moving parts. But I really appreciate
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Speaker 2: your point in stepping back from life's busy schedule to say,
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Speaker 2: whoa time out? What makes me tick? What am I
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Speaker 2: here for? What can I do in my daily life,
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Speaker 2: you know, both physically and mentally, to have a better,
8:30
Speaker 2: more satisfying experience, you know, before they put me into
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Speaker 2: the ground. And I think that's something that everybody should do.
8:38
Speaker 2: But we get most people get so caught up in
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Speaker 2: the busyness of their lives and they're kind of just
8:45
Speaker 2: going through life as a zombie or on automatic pilot,
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Speaker 2: and that's why to use your illustration mentally. We know
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Speaker 2: certain things are going to be unhealthy for us, but boo,
8:58
Speaker 2: there we go. We engage in those activities anyway. And
9:02
Speaker 2: that is a serious human flaw that will continue and
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Speaker 2: persist until you sit down and think your way through it.
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Speaker 2: If not with just yourself or a friend, you know,
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Speaker 2: maybe with a therapist. Maybe that's the kind of intervention
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Speaker 2: you need. But I do think a lot of this
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Speaker 2: can be resolved by going all the way. And so
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Speaker 2: you know, Socrates knew this over two thousand years ago.
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Speaker 2: Know thyself was his motto, right, and two thousand years later,
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Speaker 2: we still haven't learned that lesson because life just keeps
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Speaker 2: us too busy, too distracted, and it throws a bunch
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Speaker 2: of like glitter at us that you know, like like squirrels,
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Speaker 2: We run to it, and it distracts our attention from
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Speaker 2: some of the more deeper and meaningful things that we
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Speaker 2: can get out of life. So that that is a yeah,
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Speaker 2: a preface to the nuts and bolts that leads to
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Speaker 2: meet me tries to to address, you know, it does
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Speaker 2: try to dive into the actual biology of human behavior.
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Speaker 2: There's a wide variety of explanations for why we do
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Speaker 2: the things we do. It's very textual, but you've got
10:15
Speaker 2: to start somewhere, and to this day, as you as
10:19
Speaker 2: you're pointed out on the last time we got together,
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Speaker 2: there's a whole slew of articles on my website, author
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Speaker 2: Bill Sullivan dot com that kind of follow up on
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Speaker 2: some of the things, some of the concepts that the
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Speaker 2: book introduced. Because new science is coming out every day
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Speaker 2: that teaches us all, you know, a little more about
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Speaker 2: what makes a human being tick.
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Speaker 1: And I think that you know the macro of what
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Speaker 1: makes a human tick, and then we kind of narrow
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Speaker 1: down the focus to the micro of what makes me tick,
10:50
Speaker 1: you know. And because what will work for Bill depending
10:53
Speaker 1: on what we're talking about, won't work for Craig and
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Speaker 1: vice versa. You know, I've just started. I'll finish your
11:03
Speaker 1: book first. But I listened to the first bit of
11:05
Speaker 1: a book by a journo researcher called Abigail SHREI I
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Speaker 1: might have talked to you about this, I'm not sure,
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Speaker 1: but she wrote a book called Bad Therapy. Have you
11:15
Speaker 1: heard of that book?
11:17
Speaker 2: I think I have, but I haven't read it.
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Speaker 1: Anyway, It's basically she just points out something which when
11:23
Speaker 1: you talk about it, you go, well, yeah, of course
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Speaker 1: that makes sense. And her assertion followed up and followed
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Speaker 1: backed up by like a lot of great conversations with
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Speaker 1: therapists and some pretty solid research, is that for some
11:37
Speaker 1: people talk therapy is really productive and valuable and therapeutic
11:43
Speaker 1: in the literal sense, but some people going back and
11:46
Speaker 1: revisiting what were perhaps traumatic experiences, does the opposite. It
11:51
Speaker 1: doesn't help, It doesn't heal, you know. And so which
11:54
Speaker 1: did not say talk therapy, for example, is good or bad.
11:58
Speaker 1: It depends on the individual, which is like you know,
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Speaker 1: nuts and almonds and seeds for some people are awesome,
12:04
Speaker 1: for some people they're not. You know, for me, working
12:08
Speaker 1: for myself not having a boss for the last forty
12:10
Speaker 1: years is for me a perfect model because I get
12:14
Speaker 1: to be able to do what I want and create
12:16
Speaker 1: my own thing. Fall down, fuck up, learn, grow, evolve.
12:20
Speaker 1: I don't work well in that kind of employee situation framework,
12:25
Speaker 1: and it's not that it's good or bad, it's just
12:27
Speaker 1: what works for me. So I think one of the
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Speaker 1: challenges for us is, you know, trying to understand our self.
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Speaker 1: You know, almost n equals one that what is my
12:40
Speaker 1: what's my body telling me, what's my emotional system telling me?
12:45
Speaker 1: Like for me, standing in front of an audience is
12:47
Speaker 1: like my happy place. For someone else, it's the most
12:51
Speaker 1: terrifying thing they'll ever do. And it's not that being
12:54
Speaker 1: in front of an audience is good or bad. It's
12:57
Speaker 1: you know, just like nuts are not good or bad,
12:59
Speaker 1: or like six hours sleep is not good or bad.
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Speaker 1: But it all comes down to the way that I
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Speaker 1: guess our individual physiology, psychology, emotion responds to a range
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Speaker 1: of different variables, right, and trying to understand that for ourselves. Right,
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Speaker 1: I feel like I feel like I just overshared their
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Speaker 1: I apologize.
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Speaker 2: No, you didn't over share it at all. But I
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Speaker 2: think that's a key insight that a lot of people
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Speaker 2: need to realize, is that, you know, from a geneticist
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Speaker 2: point of view, the number of genes that are different
13:33
Speaker 2: between any two individuals anywhere in the world is almost
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Speaker 2: statistically negligible. It's pretty astonishing how similar, you know, are
13:43
Speaker 2: almost identical most human beings really are. Even if you
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Speaker 2: look at non human primates, there's still only about one
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Speaker 2: point five percent genes that are different than us than
13:55
Speaker 2: in US than say at chimpanzee. So at a genetic level,
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Speaker 2: we're in ly similar, and yet the human experience and
14:04
Speaker 2: human behaviors are so wonderfully diverse. It's just astonishing the
14:11
Speaker 2: number of differences that can arise despite the fact that
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Speaker 2: our genes are virtually identical in many important ways. And
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Speaker 2: what that tells me is that genes do have an
14:24
Speaker 2: important role.
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Speaker 1: Don't get me.
14:25
Speaker 2: Wrong, but there's a lot more to life than what
14:28
Speaker 2: your genetic makeup is. And I think that's a really
14:32
Speaker 2: hopeful thing to walk away from. That message should fill
14:36
Speaker 2: people with hope because the ability to change is there,
14:41
Speaker 2: and the key to that change is reconstructing your environment.
14:45
Speaker 2: And that might sound like common sense to some people,
14:47
Speaker 2: but it's something that many of us do not take
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Speaker 2: the time to think about, or we're too afraid to
14:53
Speaker 2: make those changes in order to create a better opportunity
14:59
Speaker 2: or a better world for ourselves.
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Speaker 1: Can you okay, reconstructing your environment? Did you just say
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Speaker 1: the cada change is reconstructing your environment?
15:08
Speaker 2: Yeah?
15:08
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah.
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Speaker 2: You can literally change the way your genes are activated
15:13
Speaker 2: by putting yourself in a different environment. And when I
15:17
Speaker 2: say environment, I mean all sorts of external things, pretty
15:21
Speaker 2: much anything that's non genetic, and a lot of these things,
15:25
Speaker 2: at least after you grow up, are in your control
15:28
Speaker 2: to manage, at least to some degree. Yes, you know,
15:31
Speaker 2: you certainly don't control your early childhood and what your
15:34
Speaker 2: mom and dad did you know while you were young,
15:38
Speaker 2: but once you reach a certain age, you have a
15:40
Speaker 2: lot more agency and control over that environment. So I'm
15:46
Speaker 2: not just talking about like physical features in your environment,
15:50
Speaker 2: although those are important, but I'm talking about the particular
15:54
Speaker 2: culture that you're in. You know, the neighborhood that you
15:57
Speaker 2: live in, the people you associate with, the food you
16:00
Speaker 2: put into your body, the drugs you avoid putting into
16:04
Speaker 2: your body, y the you know, the the company you keep,
16:11
Speaker 2: and what you ingest. At an intellectual level as well, Okay,
16:15
Speaker 2: what sort of media do you consume? What sort of books?
16:20
Speaker 2: You know, Internet, websites, social media, because you've got to
16:26
Speaker 2: treat that, just like you know, you're surveying the types
16:30
Speaker 2: of foods, and there's junk foods and there's healthy foods.
16:33
Speaker 2: It's the same way with anything that you put into
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Speaker 2: your brain. Okay, you have to you have to have
16:39
Speaker 2: some kind of filtration system to keep the junk out
16:45
Speaker 2: of your head. You know, or else you can be
16:48
Speaker 2: setting yourself up for disaster. And that's what I mean
16:51
Speaker 2: by recreating a good environment and one that is filled
16:55
Speaker 2: with things that don't just like make you temporarily happy,
17:00
Speaker 2: but make you sustainably content. You know, if you know
17:04
Speaker 2: yourself and you do these exercises to know yourself, you
17:11
Speaker 2: can imagine and create in your mind what sort of
17:14
Speaker 2: environment you would thrive in, and then try to create
17:17
Speaker 2: it in reality.
17:18
Speaker 1: That's so smart. I love that. I am so. I
17:23
Speaker 1: grew up in the country, dock and sow country, you know, trees,
17:27
Speaker 1: forests country, and now I live in the city and
17:30
Speaker 1: I love the city. But I hate the city. You know,
17:33
Speaker 1: there's part you know, there's parts of it I love,
17:35
Speaker 1: there's parts of it. I fucking hate the city. But
17:40
Speaker 1: so where I live, I decided the best I could
17:44
Speaker 1: do was while living I actually, for the most part,
17:48
Speaker 1: I love the city. It's very convenient. There's a lot
17:49
Speaker 1: of awesome stuff and resources. But I planted in my
17:53
Speaker 1: garden bamboo trees which run around the perimeter of my
17:56
Speaker 1: whole house. And so there's bamboo trees that I plan
18:00
Speaker 1: twelve years ago. They're now about four or five stories high.
18:04
Speaker 1: They're like forty fifty feet high. So where I am
18:07
Speaker 1: right now, which is in my office, all I can
18:10
Speaker 1: see is green trees, like a wall of green. And
18:14
Speaker 1: no one can actually see my house because all you
18:16
Speaker 1: can see is the trees. But on the other side
18:19
Speaker 1: of the trees is suburbia. His Benjamin is the concrete jungle.
18:24
Speaker 1: But I know, I absolutely know that being in having
18:29
Speaker 1: an office where I look out at trees is good
18:31
Speaker 1: for my nervous system. It's good for my it's good
18:34
Speaker 1: for my creativity, it's good for my cognitive function. And
18:38
Speaker 1: also he's backed up. Yeah, and also I created for
18:43
Speaker 1: myself an office which is not particularly opulent, but it's
18:47
Speaker 1: just really comfortable. Like I have this like I'm always
18:51
Speaker 1: in bare feet. I could stick my foot up right
18:53
Speaker 1: now and show you don't need to see it. But
18:56
Speaker 1: the clothes that I work the clothes Knight, the clothes
18:59
Speaker 1: that I work in, nice metallica shirt, by the way,
19:02
Speaker 1: I love that Gidea. The clothes that I work at
19:06
Speaker 1: impact how creative and how productive I am. The having
19:11
Speaker 1: bare feet does something for me, Like my feet in
19:13
Speaker 1: the carpet opposite me. Over there, about a meter there
19:16
Speaker 1: are two huge leather chairs with big arms that are
19:20
Speaker 1: old and comfortable. Right, there's lots of light, lots of
19:24
Speaker 1: glass in this office. So my point is this, if
19:28
Speaker 1: I go to university we call it UNI here college.
19:32
Speaker 1: If I go to college and I do, which I've
19:34
Speaker 1: got obviously a space at the university where I can go,
19:39
Speaker 1: my productivity is three out of ten because I'm literally
19:43
Speaker 1: sitting in essentially a cubicle and I'm looking at just
19:48
Speaker 1: white fucking walls, and it's just for me, the least
19:53
Speaker 1: inspirational environment ever. And so even if I'm doing the
19:57
Speaker 1: same thing, I know I will do better where I
20:01
Speaker 1: am right now. And for me, it's about that is
20:04
Speaker 1: that you know, consciously creating an environment or as you said,
20:11
Speaker 1: constructing or reconstructing an environment that will help you be
20:17
Speaker 1: closer to optimal. But I think also back to what
20:20
Speaker 1: you said seven or eight, ten minutes ago, is that
20:25
Speaker 1: we tend to do a lot of what we do
20:30
Speaker 1: in this on this kind of autopilot programming, where I'm
20:34
Speaker 1: doing today what I did yesterday just because I did
20:36
Speaker 1: that yesterday and the day before and the month before
20:39
Speaker 1: and the year before. And it's not that it's an
20:41
Speaker 1: optimal way of doing things. That's a familiar way of
20:43
Speaker 1: doing things, and I'm kind of comfortable with it, and
20:47
Speaker 1: so I'll stay with what I know, even though it's
20:49
Speaker 1: a three out of ten outcome, because we like familiarity
20:55
Speaker 1: and certainty and predictability and comfort, and even though it's
20:58
Speaker 1: not optimal, comfortable, sell all keype doing it. It takes
21:03
Speaker 1: courage to reinvent your operating system rot.
21:07
Speaker 2: It takes courage, but it can be really fun. And
21:10
Speaker 2: maybe this is the scientist in me, but I've experimented
21:14
Speaker 2: with all sorts of configurations of this room as well
21:17
Speaker 2: as different environments to find out where I'm most productive
21:21
Speaker 2: when I'm doing a certain thing. Yeah, okay, And I
21:25
Speaker 2: also appreciate your point very much about getting outside and
21:29
Speaker 2: getting back to nature to kind of stimulate the creative juices.
21:33
Speaker 1: Yes, okay, So.
21:36
Speaker 2: I really enjoy when I have to write working from home.
21:40
Speaker 2: Of course, I have an office back on campus, but ironically,
21:45
Speaker 2: I don't feel that I'm as productive writing in that office, okay,
21:50
Speaker 2: which does not have a beautiful view out the window,
21:54
Speaker 2: and I'm constantly interrupted by this or that, you know,
21:58
Speaker 2: And you know, it's not that I'm bashing that. I
22:02
Speaker 2: just expect it. You know, when you're there, it's easy
22:05
Speaker 2: to interrupt Bill and talk to him, and that's perfectly fine,
22:09
Speaker 2: but I have to know that going in that I'm
22:11
Speaker 2: not going to be as productive. Then I can be undisturbed.
22:15
Speaker 2: Here I have a beautiful view outside this window. Here,
22:19
Speaker 2: I push my desk straight up against the window on
22:22
Speaker 2: purpose so that I can watch, you know, in the yard.
22:25
Speaker 2: I can see birds, and you know, I see children.
22:29
Speaker 2: Sometimes the birds swoop down and attack the children, just kidding.
22:36
Speaker 1: Every now and then they carry a small one away,
22:38
Speaker 1: and it makes my day, to.
22:39
Speaker 2: Be honest, But I think you get what I'm saying.
22:43
Speaker 2: There's these beautiful trees, wildlife comes by, you see squirrels,
22:47
Speaker 2: you see birds, you see all these other things, and
22:49
Speaker 2: it just it stimulates the creative juice. It's something about
22:53
Speaker 2: that greenery and the natural environment, blue skies. It just
22:57
Speaker 2: really gets my juices flowing. And maybe that's not for everybody.
23:00
Speaker 2: You know, some people might require like a cubicle sterile office,
23:04
Speaker 2: and that's where they work best because there's really literally
23:07
Speaker 2: nothing else to do, nothing to distract them. And again,
23:11
Speaker 2: exactly it's worked for me, correct, and it's not right
23:14
Speaker 2: or wrong it's like what works for you individually, and
23:18
Speaker 2: like I've spoken to many people who you know, go
23:22
Speaker 2: many people have said to me, I don't know how
23:24
Speaker 2: you do your job, like because for my like I
23:26
Speaker 2: don't have a weekly wage, I don't have a set income.
23:29
Speaker 1: I don't have sick pay, I don't have holiday pay,
23:32
Speaker 1: I don't have you know, I don't have a lot
23:34
Speaker 1: of the benefits that a lot of people have and deserve.
23:37
Speaker 1: I don't have those because I chose this other path,
23:41
Speaker 1: and there's a lot of vulnerability and a lot of
23:43
Speaker 1: risk with that.
23:45
Speaker 2: And you'd like talk to some pretty cool people that
23:47
Speaker 2: are amazing.
23:48
Speaker 1: Well I'm not even being well you, you're fucking around
23:51
Speaker 1: a bit. But like I, I honestly think it's a
23:54
Speaker 1: privilege that I get to talk to you. I truly
23:57
Speaker 1: mean that, and I know that without my podcast, I
24:01
Speaker 1: wouldn't meet you. I wouldn't get to connect with you
24:04
Speaker 1: and so many other brilliant, amazing people. And it's like
24:07
Speaker 1: it's apart from the fact that it's it's fortunately it's
24:13
Speaker 1: worked out, Like we have an audience, there's a commercial
24:16
Speaker 1: reality to the show. We have sponsors, which is amazing.
24:19
Speaker 1: We've heard in lots of countries, which is awesome, and
24:22
Speaker 1: I love all of that because it's good to make
24:25
Speaker 1: them do right. But I love more the fact that
24:28
Speaker 1: in the last six years of this show, but I've
24:31
Speaker 1: been more educated through this medium, through meeting people like you,
24:36
Speaker 1: than I have through any other thing that I've done,
24:38
Speaker 1: including my PhD. My PhD is amazing, but it's not
24:44
Speaker 1: It doesn't compare to this, and some people would find that,
24:47
Speaker 1: you know it is. It's a very different kind of
24:50
Speaker 1: learning and a very different outcome. But for me this
24:53
Speaker 1: has been a real blessing. But at the same time,
24:57
Speaker 1: you know, a lot of people find the idea like,
25:01
Speaker 1: you know, you're a bit of a unicorn. You get
25:02
Speaker 1: on this and you are very comfortable, very you know,
25:06
Speaker 1: this is you. You're about as anxious as you would
25:09
Speaker 1: be having a coffee in a chat with anyone. But
25:12
Speaker 1: most people are not you. You know, there are so many
25:15
Speaker 1: people that doing the same thing you're doing now, which
25:17
Speaker 1: is I'm doing an interview or a chat with Craig.
25:20
Speaker 1: It's being recorded, it's being filmed, it's going to go
25:22
Speaker 1: around the world, thousands of people going to listen to that.
25:25
Speaker 1: Just that reality. Some people get on the podcast and
25:29
Speaker 1: they're terrified. They even though they're normally good communicators, they
25:33
Speaker 1: can't string three words together. Yeah.
25:36
Speaker 2: Yeah, I've run into that in my profession as well,
25:38
Speaker 2: because I like to encourage all scientists and physicians to
25:42
Speaker 2: get out there and do more of what I'm doing,
25:44
Speaker 2: you know, to get out there and speak to the
25:46
Speaker 2: general public, tell them what's up. But I've encouraged some
25:51
Speaker 2: people to do that, and I feel bad that I
25:54
Speaker 2: did that because they can't do it. They don't have
25:58
Speaker 2: that skill, they don't have that talent, and I didn't
26:03
Speaker 2: appreciate that early on. I stand corrected. You know, this
26:06
Speaker 2: is not for everybody, but fortunately there's folks like you
26:11
Speaker 2: who take a chance on those in the Ivory Tower
26:15
Speaker 2: and put them on the air and learn more about
26:18
Speaker 2: what they do and what makes them tick, and you
26:21
Speaker 2: expose their thoughts, opinions and expertise to a huge audience
26:28
Speaker 2: that they would never have access to without people like you.
26:32
Speaker 1: You know.
26:33
Speaker 2: So, I think podcasters like yourself who have stepped up
26:37
Speaker 2: to get you know, professionals and expert opinion into the
26:43
Speaker 2: ears of people who don't normally get a chance to
26:45
Speaker 2: hear it. I think that's a wonderful thing that technology
26:48
Speaker 2: allows us to do now.
26:50
Speaker 1: And I think, and I'm not talking about myself here,
26:53
Speaker 1: but I think if you get the right person talking
26:55
Speaker 1: to somebody, the right interviewer or the right podcast to
26:58
Speaker 1: talk to somebody, even somebody who's a bit clunky and
27:01
Speaker 1: nervous and uncomfortable, done the right way, over time, you
27:06
Speaker 1: can create a good outcome. But having said that, there's
27:10
Speaker 1: been about ten interviews that I've done over the last
27:12
Speaker 1: six years which never saw the light of day. They
27:16
Speaker 1: were just, oh my god, so bad. Obviously, I'm not
27:18
Speaker 1: going to mention a name. I'll tell you one or
27:20
Speaker 1: two off air, but a very very very famous person
27:23
Speaker 1: that I did that nearly everyone would know this person's name.
27:29
Speaker 1: Amazing writer, amazing mind, amazing book, terrible, terrible on a microphone.
27:34
Speaker 1: But anyway, so we can't be experts at everything. Everybody's
27:39
Speaker 1: got their strength and weaknesses. And also, you know, there's
27:45
Speaker 1: one thing to have knowledge, expertise, understanding, there's another thing
27:49
Speaker 1: to be able to share that you know comfortably and
27:53
Speaker 1: to be under you know, like you don't. I'm sure
27:56
Speaker 1: right now you don't feel any particular pressure. But for
27:59
Speaker 1: a lot of people I can almost, well not almost.
28:04
Speaker 1: I can sense their anxiety. I can sense the pressure,
28:09
Speaker 1: the stress, the nerves, you know, and yeah, it's it
28:14
Speaker 1: just is what it is. You can't switch it off.
28:16
Speaker 1: You can't. You can't take that away for them. So,
28:20
Speaker 1: you know, I try to be as aware and understanding
28:24
Speaker 1: as I can and kind of walk them through it
28:26
Speaker 1: a little bit. I've stopped quite a few podcasts five
28:29
Speaker 1: minutes in and I've said all right, oh yeah, yeah, yeah,
28:32
Speaker 1: I've said all right, we're going to start again. I
28:35
Speaker 1: just want to talk to you before we start. I go,
28:37
Speaker 1: you going okay, I said, But the you that I
28:40
Speaker 1: spoke to before we started recording, that's the you that
28:43
Speaker 1: I want, because that you people will love. And I said,
28:47
Speaker 1: the moment that we started recording, you were different, right,
28:51
Speaker 1: And I said, I want you to just try hard.
28:55
Speaker 1: I know it's hard and it's probably not great advice,
28:58
Speaker 1: but it's the best of got Just chat with me,
29:02
Speaker 1: just like it's you and me. We're having a coffee,
29:06
Speaker 1: and if you fuck anything up, we'll leedit it out.
29:08
Speaker 1: If you say something that at the end you think,
29:10
Speaker 1: oh I wish I didn't talk about my mum. Could
29:13
Speaker 1: you take that bit about my mum out. The answer
29:15
Speaker 1: is yes, we can so because people overthink everything and
29:19
Speaker 1: when you're overthinking, you're not being you, you know, and
29:24
Speaker 1: you can't connect. All right, So Mady comes in quick
29:27
Speaker 1: one hundredcent. Now, what I didn't tell you was in
29:30
Speaker 1: one of my groups, I told everyone I was chatting
29:32
Speaker 1: with you, and I said, give me some questions for
29:35
Speaker 1: the great Man. So here's what I'm going to do.
29:37
Speaker 1: We're going to do about if you're right with this,
29:40
Speaker 1: twenty to thirty minutes of me just asking you, which
29:44
Speaker 1: is not a very Craig model, but I'm going to
29:46
Speaker 1: do it anyway, and one or two minutes, it doesn't matter,
29:50
Speaker 1: as long as you want. But here's my idea. I'm
29:53
Speaker 1: going to go speak about this for a minute. You
29:54
Speaker 1: tell us, and then I go cool, and then another
29:56
Speaker 1: one and another one. So I want to tap into
29:59
Speaker 1: some of your genius, all right.
30:02
Speaker 2: I'll do my best, all.
30:03
Speaker 1: Right, So I want to talk. I want you to
30:07
Speaker 1: talk to us a little bit about from a genetic
30:10
Speaker 1: or biological point of view, how that intersects with will power,
30:14
Speaker 1: self control and discipline, will power, self controlled discipline, wherever
30:20
Speaker 1: you want to go with that. What are your thoughts
30:22
Speaker 1: on that.
30:25
Speaker 2: That's a that's a great question because there have been
30:28
Speaker 2: some high profile studies that have been done in the
30:31
Speaker 2: past that have looked at self control and discipline in children. Okay,
30:37
Speaker 2: there's this famous experiment called the marshmallow test, where you
30:42
Speaker 2: basically tell a child, put a marshmallow in front of
30:46
Speaker 2: them and tell them, Okay, you can eat that now,
30:48
Speaker 2: but if you can wait fifteen minutes, I'll give you
30:51
Speaker 2: two marshmallows. Yeah, okay, And I forget which percentage of
30:55
Speaker 2: children can actually wait the fifteen minutes, but there's a
30:58
Speaker 2: fair number of them that cannot, okay, and then a
31:01
Speaker 2: fair number that can, and those that can were viewed
31:06
Speaker 2: as having more self control, and then, I don't know,
31:10
Speaker 2: fifteen twenty years later, the experimenters analyze where these children
31:14
Speaker 2: ended up in life, and according to their results, those
31:19
Speaker 2: who the children that exercise self control did better on
31:23
Speaker 2: just about every single metric you can imagine. They had
31:26
Speaker 2: better grades, they had better graduation rates, they had better
31:30
Speaker 2: higher paying jobs, their marriages were stable, blah blah blah.
31:34
Speaker 2: Almost everything you looked at. People with self control had
31:38
Speaker 2: better life outcomes. And if you think about it, that's
31:41
Speaker 2: not a real revolutionary discovery. You know, it's makes common
31:47
Speaker 2: sense if you think about it, because people with self
31:49
Speaker 2: control have the discipline to take a time out and
31:52
Speaker 2: think about choices, perhaps more rationally or with you know,
31:57
Speaker 2: less emotion and more logic. So the theory went. Now
32:02
Speaker 2: that famous experiment has come under fire recently, and because
32:08
Speaker 2: some people have failed to replicate it. You know, they
32:10
Speaker 2: can identify children that have more self control than others
32:14
Speaker 2: at the time, but then when they do these longitudinal
32:17
Speaker 2: analyzes down the road, they don't see correlations between better
32:21
Speaker 2: self control and better life outcomes. So it's really difficult
32:27
Speaker 2: to say where self control fits in into life's success.
32:32
Speaker 2: And you can also argue that what happens in children
32:35
Speaker 2: is not what happens down the road and adults. Yes,
32:38
Speaker 2: the other thing that was important Craig in the initial
32:42
Speaker 2: studies is that they didn't control for socioeconomic factors. So
32:48
Speaker 2: some of the things that could have really influenced a
32:51
Speaker 2: child's positive life outcomes might not have been self control,
32:55
Speaker 2: but it might have been because their parents were more
32:58
Speaker 2: well off and they could afford too, They could afford
33:01
Speaker 2: better schools, things like that, extracurricular activities and so on.
33:06
Speaker 2: So long story short, these sorts of analyzes in people
33:12
Speaker 2: are incredibly hard to do because there's so many confounding
33:17
Speaker 2: variables that can come into the equation. So if someone
33:21
Speaker 2: tells you that you don't have the genes for self control,
33:25
Speaker 2: where you don't have the early environment that would have
33:29
Speaker 2: set you up for life's success, I would say, you
33:33
Speaker 2: know that might not be true, and what you can
33:37
Speaker 2: do instead is to take proactive steps to improve your
33:42
Speaker 2: self control. There are talk therapy sessions that have been
33:46
Speaker 2: demonstrated to increase a person's discipline. There are also medications
33:52
Speaker 2: that can cause people who might have ADHD to focus
33:56
Speaker 2: better and have more self control in that capacity. And
34:00
Speaker 2: there's simple books you can read that walk you through
34:04
Speaker 2: meditation exercises that can, over time allow you to develop
34:08
Speaker 2: better self control on your own. Yes, so there's an
34:12
Speaker 2: assortment of activities that you can engage in and you
34:15
Speaker 2: should have hope that those things are going to work.
34:18
Speaker 2: You just got to find the right formula that fits
34:22
Speaker 2: your biology.
34:23
Speaker 1: And I was thinking about that particular study, like if
34:29
Speaker 1: I was that kid, because I was a fat little kid,
34:31
Speaker 1: I loved food.
34:33
Speaker 2: But you would have just scarred I would I would
34:36
Speaker 2: have inhaled that, and then I would have gone looking
34:38
Speaker 2: for others, right, had some people tell me they would
34:41
Speaker 2: have inhaled theirs and then stolen everybody else's.
34:46
Speaker 1: Well, literally my name was Jumbo for a reason.
34:50
Speaker 2: Right.
34:52
Speaker 1: But also I think, you know, like some of the
34:55
Speaker 1: kids might have been hungry, some might have not been hungry.
35:00
Speaker 1: You know, some might have had a more savory predisposition.
35:04
Speaker 1: Some might have a more like, let's you know, if
35:07
Speaker 1: you put up you know, like some cheese and crackers,
35:10
Speaker 1: somebody might go, oh, yeah, I love you know, I
35:13
Speaker 1: think there's all right, So that's cool. Next one is
35:18
Speaker 1: this was this from Scott, one of my followers. Can
35:24
Speaker 1: doctor Bill talk about genetics and addiction?
35:30
Speaker 2: Oh yes, I wrote a whole chapter on that in
35:34
Speaker 2: the book, but I'll be happy to give you a
35:35
Speaker 2: little synopsis of it. And the way I've approached it
35:39
Speaker 2: was the way scientists approached it. Shortly after the human
35:43
Speaker 2: genome was sequenced, this was about twenty four years ago. Now,
35:46
Speaker 2: scientists actually actively sought out Ozzy Osbourne's genome. So Ozzy Osbourne,
35:54
Speaker 2: you know, the heavy metal music start, has notorious problems
35:59
Speaker 2: or had notorious problems with drugs and alcohol. Throughout the
36:03
Speaker 2: majority of his early career. Fortunately he was able to
36:07
Speaker 2: turn that around. But back in the day, scientists viewed
36:11
Speaker 2: him as the perfect specimens and he was actually one
36:15
Speaker 2: of the very first people on the planet to get
36:18
Speaker 2: his genome sequenced by scientists. Wow, you know, you would
36:22
Speaker 2: have thought they went after intellectuals or top athletes or
36:25
Speaker 2: something like that to figure out Michael Jordan's are, yeah,
36:29
Speaker 2: that make these people so uniquely talented, But in a way,
36:35
Speaker 2: they were interested in Ozzy Osbourne's talent of you know,
36:39
Speaker 2: putting away a liquor store like inside an hour or
36:42
Speaker 2: something you could just drink like a fish, right.
36:45
Speaker 1: And lo and behold.
36:47
Speaker 2: When they analyzed his genome, they found a never before
36:51
Speaker 2: seen mutation in this gene called ADH four, which is
36:56
Speaker 2: encodes an enzyme that works in the liver to detoxify alcohol.
37:01
Speaker 2: So it's pretty remarkable the mutation he had would have
37:04
Speaker 2: cranked out tons of this enzyme. So Ozzie Osbourne literally
37:07
Speaker 2: has a liver that can just demolish alcohol and it
37:12
Speaker 2: explains in part why he could put away so much.
37:15
Speaker 2: Now it doesn't explain why he might have been addicted
37:17
Speaker 2: to the substance. So this is where something called GWOSS
37:22
Speaker 2: studies come in. This is genome wide association studies. And
37:28
Speaker 2: in the past twenty four years, sequencing a genome has
37:31
Speaker 2: gotten very easy to do and very inexpensive, not like
37:36
Speaker 2: when Ozzie Osbourne had his first done. So lots of
37:40
Speaker 2: people have done this. Now hundreds of thousands of people
37:44
Speaker 2: have basically handed over their genome to science, including people
37:48
Speaker 2: who struggle with drugs and alcohol. And one of the
37:51
Speaker 2: main common features out of looking at all these people
37:54
Speaker 2: who struggle with addiction and all the people who don't,
37:57
Speaker 2: is that the people who struggle with addiction have a
38:00
Speaker 2: hyperactive brain because of a series of mutations that crank
38:06
Speaker 2: or that cause what is called a GABA deficiency. Gaba
38:10
Speaker 2: is a neurotransmitter in the brain, and it inhibits the brain.
38:15
Speaker 2: It's it calms it down, okay, And it's a really
38:18
Speaker 2: essential neurotransmitter that you need in order to focus, to
38:24
Speaker 2: maintain attention, and even to fall asleep, you know, because
38:27
Speaker 2: you because you need to inhibit the brain's ability to
38:31
Speaker 2: go in all sorts of different directions. But that's what
38:35
Speaker 2: uh an addicts mind goes through. And again I'm just
38:40
Speaker 2: generalizing here, there's obviously other explanations, but for a lot
38:44
Speaker 2: of the people who had their genome sequence, they have
38:46
Speaker 2: some sort of gene that leads to a deficiency in
38:49
Speaker 2: the neurotransmitter GABBA, which results in a hyperactive brain. Now,
38:54
Speaker 2: the chemical formula for alcohol looks very similar to the
38:59
Speaker 2: chemical formula for that neurotransmitter, and in fact works very similarly.
39:05
Speaker 2: So when people ingest alcohol, they're basically given themselves a
39:09
Speaker 2: medicine to calm their brain down. Unfortunately, it's a highly
39:14
Speaker 2: addictive medicine. So that's the bad news. The good news, Craig,
39:18
Speaker 2: is that now that we know this, and that a
39:20
Speaker 2: lot of people who struggle with alcohol have this common deficiency,
39:25
Speaker 2: we can now design compounds that look like GABBA but
39:29
Speaker 2: are not addictive, and therefore therapeutically treat people who struggle
39:34
Speaker 2: with alcoholism. I get very excited about it.
39:38
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's so fascinating. We've had a guy on this
39:41
Speaker 1: show a bunch of times who has had a really interesting,
39:46
Speaker 1: well colorful, colorful life. His name's Nicole. He would say alcoholic, addict,
39:52
Speaker 1: clan and cyber for a long time now spent quite
39:55
Speaker 1: a lot of I think fifty and sixteen seven eight
39:59
Speaker 1: years in pre and like, you know, interesting life. And
40:02
Speaker 1: now he's clean and sober and he works with other
40:04
Speaker 1: people and he's turned his life around and amazing. But
40:08
Speaker 1: he tells the story about when he had his first
40:11
Speaker 1: drink of alcohol. He was twelve, and he said it
40:15
Speaker 1: felt like he'd come home. He said, it felt like,
40:18
Speaker 1: oh my god, this is what's been missing. And he said,
40:21
Speaker 1: the actual stuff itself. I think it was something like
40:25
Speaker 1: I forget, I don't drink booze, so but it was
40:27
Speaker 1: some cheap, shitty alcohol and he said it tasted horrible,
40:31
Speaker 1: but what it made him feel, what it did to
40:34
Speaker 1: his brain. He said, I knew then that I would
40:38
Speaker 1: never stop drinking, you know, like that was the And
40:40
Speaker 1: he was twelve years old. And I'm like, I can't
40:44
Speaker 1: even grasp that. But that story, with what you just said,
40:48
Speaker 1: well that makes sense.
40:50
Speaker 2: Yeah, it really enlaightened me because I always kind of
40:55
Speaker 2: thought about, like the first question you asked, this was
40:58
Speaker 2: all about discipline, this was all about self control. And
41:01
Speaker 2: what this tells us is that, you know, not to
41:04
Speaker 2: dismiss the self control component, but these people genuinely struggle
41:10
Speaker 2: with maintaining focus. And I had a fellow come up
41:13
Speaker 2: to me at a book signing once, specifically talking about
41:17
Speaker 2: how he was an alcoholic and still struggles with it
41:20
Speaker 2: this day because he found early on, when he was young,
41:24
Speaker 2: he could not sleep without taking a drink because his
41:28
Speaker 2: brain was just going in a million different directions. And
41:30
Speaker 2: when he read about the GABA deficiency, he was like,
41:33
Speaker 2: it all made sense to me, yes, And he was
41:36
Speaker 2: basically self medicating himself in order to get to sleep.
41:40
Speaker 2: But then, unfortunately, you know, it, became addicted to the
41:43
Speaker 2: substance and he required more and more just to achieve
41:47
Speaker 2: that sedative effect. So that's the danger of alcohol. It
41:51
Speaker 2: works as an elixir at the beginning, just like you
41:54
Speaker 2: know your guest found out at a very early age. Wow,
41:58
Speaker 2: this is making my brain feel normal. I'm going to
42:01
Speaker 2: keep taking this stuff. We need a pharmaceutical that can
42:04
Speaker 2: do what alcohol can do, but without the addictive properties exactly.
42:08
Speaker 1: And it's not that I was just going to say,
42:10
Speaker 1: it's not that people want the booze. As much as
42:12
Speaker 1: they want the outcome of the booze, they want the effect, right,
42:16
Speaker 1: all right, let's plow on, Stacy, dear doctor Bill, how
42:21
Speaker 1: much free will do we actually have? Now, I know
42:24
Speaker 1: that's a whole podcast, and I know that that is
42:28
Speaker 1: that you can't even scrape the surface in two minutes,
42:32
Speaker 1: But give it a go, doc, so or however you
42:35
Speaker 1: want to talk about free will.
42:38
Speaker 2: I get asked that question a lot, and I share
42:41
Speaker 2: her fascination with it. I have not come to a
42:44
Speaker 2: definitive answer, but the more I think about the topic,
42:49
Speaker 2: the less free will I think we actually have. Now,
42:52
Speaker 2: what does that mean for us on a day to
42:54
Speaker 2: day basis? Probably nothing, because we don't really go through
42:59
Speaker 2: life thinking of out whether all of our actions are
43:02
Speaker 2: determined or not. I mean, when you go and cross
43:05
Speaker 2: the street, you're still going to look both ways. You know,
43:08
Speaker 2: whether you believe the universe is deterministic or not, it's
43:12
Speaker 2: you know you're going to look both ways. So you know,
43:15
Speaker 2: I think you know. And anyone who's read my book
43:19
Speaker 2: comes away with a more humble sense of free will.
43:24
Speaker 2: And not only does that make you think about yourself
43:27
Speaker 2: in different philosophical terms and maybe what life is all about,
43:31
Speaker 2: but it engenders a lot more empathy for other people
43:34
Speaker 2: who do things that you would not agree with. Okay,
43:38
Speaker 2: think about that for a moment. If you had their genes,
43:41
Speaker 2: if you had their experiences, you grew up in their culture,
43:45
Speaker 2: you would be them. Okay, you know we are confined
43:50
Speaker 2: by our biology and our unique set of experiences. That
43:55
Speaker 2: equation makes us who we are, and it also makes
43:59
Speaker 2: anyone else who they are. So you have to have
44:04
Speaker 2: a lot more humility when you approach someone who has
44:08
Speaker 2: differences in opinion or political beliefs or what have you.
44:12
Speaker 2: And instead of just hating each other right off the
44:15
Speaker 2: bat or ignoring one another, get into a dialogue, get
44:19
Speaker 2: into a conversation, learn about what those experiences are that
44:24
Speaker 2: have led you to such different beliefs. I think that's
44:28
Speaker 2: a much healthier way for human beings to function as
44:32
Speaker 2: a society. But yeah, the short answer, you know, when
44:37
Speaker 2: you consider genes and the environmental forces that you don't
44:41
Speaker 2: have control over, the random luck or bad luck that
44:46
Speaker 2: happens to someone that is completely outside of your control.
44:49
Speaker 2: There's a component in my book that talks about microbes,
44:53
Speaker 2: the microbiome, and maybe pathogens in your body that can
44:56
Speaker 2: affect your behavior. There's just all sorts of things outside
45:00
Speaker 2: of your control that really make you wonder. I don't
45:05
Speaker 2: have as much free will as I thought I did.
45:07
Speaker 1: Yeah, but that's okay, yeah, yeah, I love it. All right.
45:12
Speaker 1: This is from Sky. It's a nice name. Sky. Thank
45:16
Speaker 1: you for your question, Doctor Bill. This will probably cover
45:20
Speaker 1: this a little bit, but maybe how do I she's
45:23
Speaker 1: thought this question through. I feel like this might be
45:26
Speaker 1: for you, Sky. How do our genetics shape our psychological
45:30
Speaker 1: responses to stress, anxiety, and depression. Are there specific genes
45:36
Speaker 1: linked to resilience and vulnerability?
45:41
Speaker 2: Yes, there's certainly a lot. I mean, genes build our brain, Okay,
45:46
Speaker 2: they governed the construction of our brain. They also govern
45:50
Speaker 2: the neurochemistry that runs through it, so that's controlled at
45:53
Speaker 2: a genetic level, but it can also maybe be controlled
45:56
Speaker 2: to some extent by an epigenetic force. You knows in
46:00
Speaker 2: the environment can epigenetically change the genes that are functioning
46:04
Speaker 2: in our brain. Epigenetics has been intimately shown to be
46:08
Speaker 2: related to memory and experience. Recall, even the microbes in
46:14
Speaker 2: our gut, and this is one of the things that
46:16
Speaker 2: really blew my mind when I was researching Pleased to
46:18
Speaker 2: meet me. The intestinal microbiome that we all have makes
46:23
Speaker 2: ninety percent of our serotonin, which is one of the
46:26
Speaker 2: major mood regulators that functions in our brain. So if
46:31
Speaker 2: you're not taking good care of your intestinal bacteria, which
46:35
Speaker 2: you can get a little sense of control over through diet,
46:39
Speaker 2: you could be dysregulating your mood and whether or not
46:42
Speaker 2: you're predisposed to depression because your serotonin is all out
46:46
Speaker 2: of balance because of these bacteria in your gut. It's
46:49
Speaker 2: a really remarkable arena of research. Now, the question also
46:55
Speaker 2: asked about resilience, because there's this fascinating group of people
46:59
Speaker 2: that even they might have experienced ACES, which are adverse
47:03
Speaker 2: childhood experiences in their youth. You know, a lot of
47:07
Speaker 2: people who experience those grow up to have major behavioral problems,
47:13
Speaker 2: predisposition for depression and suicide. But there's a considerable number
47:17
Speaker 2: of people who are resistant to those negative outcomes, and
47:21
Speaker 2: they've always perplexed psychologists and scientists alike. And here's where
47:26
Speaker 2: we have another series of GWAS studies, Craig, these genome
47:31
Speaker 2: wide association studies. So you get a bunch of people
47:35
Speaker 2: who experienced ACES and those who had negative outcomes, you
47:39
Speaker 2: sequence all their genomes, and those who were resilient, you
47:43
Speaker 2: sequence all their genomes, and then you do a comparison.
47:46
Speaker 2: And one of the most interesting genes to fall out
47:49
Speaker 2: of that comparison is that the resilient people have a
47:53
Speaker 2: mutation in a gene called BDNF, which is I think
47:57
Speaker 2: I got that right. It's a brain is a brain
48:01
Speaker 2: protective factor. And I apologize I can't remember the name
48:05
Speaker 2: right off at the top of my head, but it's
48:09
Speaker 2: fascinating that a gene that is mutated in people who
48:14
Speaker 2: are resilient functions to protect the brain. So now you
48:19
Speaker 2: can formulate a hypothesis that resilience might not even be
48:24
Speaker 2: all about, you know, psychology. These people may actually have
48:31
Speaker 2: a gene that is helping to protect their brain.
48:34
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, it makes sense, it makes sense. All right,
48:38
Speaker 1: let's do a couple more. I don't know who this
48:40
Speaker 1: is from.
48:41
Speaker 2: That didn't brain derived neurotropic factor. Sorry, that's what it is.
48:45
Speaker 1: Yeah, We've got another guy. I always trying to remember
48:47
Speaker 1: it as well, because we've got another guy here called
48:52
Speaker 1: David Gillespie who is a research he's actually a lawyer,
48:55
Speaker 1: but a researcher in Australia, is one of Australia's most
48:57
Speaker 1: prolific rod is. I have him on once a fault
49:00
Speaker 1: and he's talk spoken about that before. And as you said, it.
49:03
Speaker 1: I'm like, I know it, I know it. What is it?
49:05
Speaker 1: I knew it was new? Is it newtropic? Is it?
49:09
Speaker 1: What's the last two factor? New neurotropic? Neurotropic? Yeah? Anyway, yes,
49:15
Speaker 1: all right, Here we go to what extent do our
49:19
Speaker 1: genes affect or determine personality traits like introversion and extraversion? Again,
49:29
Speaker 1: I guess these are these are like, well, we don't
49:32
Speaker 1: exactly know, but a bit I don't know what do
49:34
Speaker 1: we actually know that?
49:36
Speaker 2: We don't know it for sure? Yeah, because and I
49:40
Speaker 2: think we touched on this at least once on your show, Craig,
49:43
Speaker 2: when we talk about genes and behavior. Yes, it's not
49:48
Speaker 2: a single gene, it's not two genes. It's usually hundreds
49:52
Speaker 2: of genes. So when you're talking about something like introversion
49:56
Speaker 2: or extraversion, which actually I'm really I'm not a huge
50:01
Speaker 2: fan of using those terms because everybody, everybody is a
50:06
Speaker 2: little bit of an introvert and an extrovert is just
50:08
Speaker 2: a matter of when you turn one or the other
50:11
Speaker 2: on and what sort of effects it has on you.
50:14
Speaker 2: And of course it's not a binary situation. There's a
50:17
Speaker 2: spectrum that some people fall right in the middle. And
50:20
Speaker 2: they can. You know, they're comfortable with both of those
50:22
Speaker 2: personality types.
50:24
Speaker 1: They call them an ambivert or something.
50:27
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I think they do.
50:28
Speaker 1: I think they do. Yeah, I'm with you. Sorry to interrupt.
50:33
Speaker 1: I just think that. No, no, fine, Like sometimes because
50:36
Speaker 1: I do what I do, people think I'm an introvert, sorry,
50:39
Speaker 1: an extrovert. But I live by myself. I'm very happy
50:44
Speaker 1: by myself. If I'm at a public event and I'm
50:47
Speaker 1: not speaking, there's nothing in me that wants to be
50:50
Speaker 1: the center of attention. I'm very happy in the background,
50:53
Speaker 1: you know. So I don't think. Yeah, But at the
50:56
Speaker 1: same time, when I'm doing my job, I'm comfortable to
50:58
Speaker 1: do it. But I don't feel compelled to draw attention
51:01
Speaker 1: to myself when I'm not doing my job, you know
51:02
Speaker 1: what I mean. So, yeah, I think I don't think
51:05
Speaker 1: it's a real hard kind of lawn.
51:09
Speaker 2: Yeah, but I do know that some scientists are trying
51:12
Speaker 2: to utilize the genome sequencing technology to try to identify
51:18
Speaker 2: markers that might be associated with whether someone's going to
51:22
Speaker 2: be introverted or extroverted for a statistically significant period of time.
51:27
Speaker 2: So it's a valid question, it's a very good one.
51:29
Speaker 2: Scientists are working on it, but there's only going to
51:32
Speaker 2: be a certain percentage of a genetic component. And that's
51:36
Speaker 2: what we see with all of these complex traits like
51:39
Speaker 2: learning and intelligence and even things like height. Okay, there's
51:44
Speaker 2: only a certain percentage that the genetic contribution adds up
51:50
Speaker 2: to the rest is environment really yeah, yeah, this is
51:55
Speaker 2: like so I'll give you a quick example for height.
51:58
Speaker 2: Most people think, well, that's got to be a pretty
52:00
Speaker 2: simple trait. Probably only a handful of genes, no hundreds
52:04
Speaker 2: of genes contribute to height, Okay, but the genetic component
52:08
Speaker 2: is strong. By some papers, it gets up to eighty
52:11
Speaker 2: percent okay, eighty percent genetically controlled, but that still leaves
52:16
Speaker 2: twenty percent environment control. And those are the sorts of
52:20
Speaker 2: things like nutrition. Okay, if you grow up malnourished, I
52:25
Speaker 2: don't care what kind of genes you have, you're not
52:26
Speaker 2: going to be as tall as you should have been.
52:29
Speaker 2: And you can do the same thing for many other uh,
52:33
Speaker 2: you know, complex behaviors like intelligence. Intelligence is one that
52:38
Speaker 2: you know, scientists can't even define what it is yet
52:41
Speaker 2: they're searching for the genes for it, which kind of
52:44
Speaker 2: makes me laugh. But you know, here we are and
52:48
Speaker 2: you'll see some papers with scores that's pretty much fifty
52:50
Speaker 2: to fifty. You know, there's a fifty percent genetic component
52:54
Speaker 2: to intelligence. However that research group defines it, and there's
52:58
Speaker 2: a fifty percent environment mental component.
53:01
Speaker 1: Wow, that is that is And I think the intelligence
53:07
Speaker 1: also intelligence as a spectrum, isn't it. It's like you
53:10
Speaker 1: and I know some smart people and in some situations
53:13
Speaker 1: they're fucking idiots.
53:14
Speaker 2: Well that's and that's just it. And however smart you are,
53:19
Speaker 2: there's only so many hours in a day and only
53:22
Speaker 2: so many brain cells in your head. You're going to
53:25
Speaker 2: know a lot about a very tiny sliver of things.
53:29
Speaker 2: And that's how I view myself. You know, there is
53:32
Speaker 2: so much in the world that I don't know a
53:34
Speaker 2: damn thing about. The things that I do know a
53:37
Speaker 2: little bit about and feel comfortable talking on your show, Greig,
53:40
Speaker 2: just a little sliver of the what the universe has
53:44
Speaker 2: to offer. But I'm happy to share and talk about
53:46
Speaker 2: that sliver.
53:48
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it depends what your room you're in.
53:50
Speaker 1: Sometimes I'm in a room I'm pretty smart. Sometimes I'm
53:52
Speaker 1: in a room I'm the dumbest in the room. You know,
53:56
Speaker 1: it's context dependent, all right, this is not on the
53:58
Speaker 1: questions that got sent through, but as you were talking,
54:02
Speaker 1: this is this is not the most savory of topics,
54:06
Speaker 1: but I think it's broadly relevant, so we can cut
54:09
Speaker 1: it out. I'm sure you know something about it. So
54:13
Speaker 1: one of the things that I didn't expect when I
54:16
Speaker 1: started working in gyms in eighteen, I owned gyms for
54:19
Speaker 1: most of my adult life, trained thousands of humans. About
54:24
Speaker 1: sixty five to seventy percent of my clients that I
54:27
Speaker 1: worked with for women. And one of the really common
54:30
Speaker 1: experiences of a lot of women that I worked with
54:33
Speaker 1: was constipation, regular constipation. And I know it's not the
54:37
Speaker 1: most regular constipation. It's a naxiemoron. Well, yeah, that's all right, consistently,
54:44
Speaker 1: that is a good point. That could be the title
54:47
Speaker 1: of the show, regular Constipation. I'm sure that'll get a
54:51
Speaker 1: lot of clicks. Yeah, they'll give people the shits now. Yeah,
54:57
Speaker 1: it's like and I know, like, I know, this is
55:00
Speaker 1: not a very savory topic. But the reason is whenever
55:03
Speaker 1: I talk about this, I actually get quite a lot
55:05
Speaker 1: of feedback because people go, yeah, I know, it's embarrassing
55:08
Speaker 1: and system, but that's me. Like, I like I talk
55:12
Speaker 1: to people who don't go to the toilet for three, four, five,
55:15
Speaker 1: six days at a time. Oh yeah, and it's it's
55:20
Speaker 1: I don't know, and this is just anecdotal, this is
55:22
Speaker 1: my experience. But it's wildly disproportionately women over men in
55:29
Speaker 1: my experience. Right, that's not science, that's just my experience.
55:34
Speaker 1: What what are some of the consequences of, you know,
55:38
Speaker 1: a body that hasn't gone to the toilet for three
55:41
Speaker 1: or four days? Like surely when we talk about the
55:45
Speaker 1: gut biome and we talk about we talk about the
55:48
Speaker 1: impact on you know everything, you know psychology and you
55:53
Speaker 1: know IQ and like energy and everything. What are your
55:58
Speaker 1: thoughts around that? Have did you talk about that in
56:01
Speaker 1: your book at all or have you ever explored it?
56:06
Speaker 2: Well, what I have talked about in the book are
56:08
Speaker 2: intestinal bacteria, and that can certainly be related to gut
56:12
Speaker 2: motility or lack thereof, which would cause the constipation. And
56:18
Speaker 2: as a consequence of doing all that microbiome research, I
56:23
Speaker 2: found out much more about the gut and the coal
56:26
Speaker 2: and then the rectum than I ever wanted to know.
56:28
Speaker 2: And to your point, most people will move vowels once
56:34
Speaker 2: a day. It's okay to skip a day Okay, you know,
56:38
Speaker 2: sometimes that happens, and it is dependent on your diet.
56:42
Speaker 2: If you don't eat a lot of food, you might
56:44
Speaker 2: skip a day. It's not a big deal. You'll be
56:47
Speaker 2: just fine. But I think most physicians, and again just
56:51
Speaker 2: to remind your audience, I'm a PhD, not an MD.
56:54
Speaker 2: I don't see patients, but I think most doctors will
56:59
Speaker 2: tell you if you're not going, if you're not going
57:02
Speaker 2: for two or three or four days, you might want
57:05
Speaker 2: to get that checked out. That doesn't sound normal. So
57:09
Speaker 2: some of the things that could be responsible are the
57:12
Speaker 2: person is not eating enough, or what they are eating
57:16
Speaker 2: is the wrong thing, okay, And what I mean is
57:18
Speaker 2: maybe they're not getting enough fiber in their diet. So
57:22
Speaker 2: that surprised me a little bit when you said there
57:24
Speaker 2: was a gender difference, because I would expect women actually
57:28
Speaker 2: to be eating better than most men. Maybe that's not
57:33
Speaker 2: the case. It's hard to say, but for people who
57:36
Speaker 2: do struggle with constipation, some of the easier things to
57:41
Speaker 2: try would be changes in diet, and you can google
57:46
Speaker 2: for fiber rich foods and introduce these gradually, or else
57:50
Speaker 2: you'll get some stomach cramps. Probiotics have also been shown
57:54
Speaker 2: in some studies, not all in some studies to provide
57:57
Speaker 2: relief for constipation as well, and that is also intimately
58:01
Speaker 2: linked to perhaps changing the structure of the microbiome towards
58:07
Speaker 2: a more healthier one. So yeah, I don't think it's
58:12
Speaker 2: normal to go or not go for that long. So
58:18
Speaker 2: I would get that, I would recommend those clients get examined.
58:22
Speaker 2: That that just doesn't sound right tall, But I think
58:26
Speaker 2: there's things you can do that are probably you might
58:30
Speaker 2: not even need to see a doctor if you can
58:32
Speaker 2: find ways to change your diet, get more fiber in
58:35
Speaker 2: their avoid certain foods that can cause constipation. And you know,
58:41
Speaker 2: I hate to try to work it out that way.
58:44
Speaker 1: Too, Spum, look at you, just being hilarious unintentionally. Well,
58:49
Speaker 1: and again everyone, this is not a prescription or advice,
58:51
Speaker 1: of course, because neither of us medical doctors. But I
58:56
Speaker 1: have I have cilium husk every morning, so every morning,
59:01
Speaker 1: and again this is not advice, but I've told my
59:03
Speaker 1: breakfast for I have oats, I have almond, so I
59:05
Speaker 1: have almon and milk, I have protein powder, and I
59:08
Speaker 1: have silium husk. And I have silium husk is about
59:12
Speaker 1: seventy five percent fiber and you know, not that any
59:16
Speaker 1: of you need to know this, but there's no problems
59:19
Speaker 1: over here at Camp Harper.
59:23
Speaker 2: That is a very safe way based on what I've read,
59:26
Speaker 2: that is a very safe way to add more fiber
59:30
Speaker 2: because it's really difficult to eat forty grams of broccoli
59:33
Speaker 2: a day or something like that, So using fiber substitutes
59:37
Speaker 2: are perfectly safe if you follow the directions carefully.
59:42
Speaker 1: Oh, you're a good man, and we might call this
59:45
Speaker 1: episode you and poo. Yeah, maybe let's not do that
59:50
Speaker 1: because you don't want to promote that. How do people
59:53
Speaker 1: find you? Follow you, connect with you? Remember everyone? The
59:55
Speaker 1: book is called Please to Meet Me, Jean's Germs and
59:57
Speaker 1: the Curious Forces, the makers who we It's available on audible.
1:00:01
Speaker 1: I'm halfway through. It is really really good. I'm really
1:00:04
Speaker 1: enjoying it. I'm learning a lot, So I encourage you
1:00:10
Speaker 1: to at least go have a bit of a listen
1:00:12
Speaker 1: well by the actual book if you're a reader rather
1:00:15
Speaker 1: than a listener. Where else do you want to point
1:00:18
Speaker 1: people doc.
1:00:20
Speaker 2: Please check me out at www. Author Bill Sulliman dot com.
1:00:26
Speaker 2: You can hook up with me on social media there
1:00:29
Speaker 2: and follow along to any other articles I've been writing
1:00:32
Speaker 2: recently and I got a milling list. You can sign
1:00:35
Speaker 2: up for there as well.
1:00:37
Speaker 1: Awesome, awesome, Well, I appreciate you, I enjoy you. Every
1:00:41
Speaker 1: time I talk to you, we'll say goodbye off air,
1:00:44
Speaker 1: but for the moment, good Doc, thank you again. Enjoy
1:00:47
Speaker 1: your month and I'll see you soon.
1:00:49
Speaker 2: I want to thank you Craigan. Thanks for all your
1:00:52
Speaker 2: listener questions. They're the best.
1:00:55
Speaker 1: Thanks Buddy,