Latest / Project Podcast / When a project director becomes COO: Heather Walker at Royal Ballet and Opera

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When a project director becomes COO: Heather Walker at Royal Ballet and Opera · Project Podcast

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Welcome to the APM podcast. APM is the chartered body for
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the project profession. My name is Emma DeVito and I'm
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the editor of Project APM's quarterly journal and your host
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in this podcast. I'm speaking to Heather Walker,
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Chief Operating Officer at Royal Ballet and Opera in London,
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where she's responsible for planning and coordinating a
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range of services to support the programme across technical and
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production, estate, visitor experience, technology and
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administration. A major focus is the renewal of
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the estate, ensuring that sustainability is at the heart
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of fabric and plant upgrades and that audiences, artists and
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staff benefit from changes to the environment and the
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technology running its services. Previous to becoming COO,
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Heather was Project Director at Royal Ballet and Opera, so I
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wanted to get her insight and advice on moving between senior
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projects and programme roles and working in the executive suite.
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As a bit of background, Heather's career began at the
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Royal Albert Hall in London where she held a variety of
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roles as Deputy Chief Executive. She led the programme to develop
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a new operating model alongside the completion of its
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redevelopment in 2004. She then moved to Australia,
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undertaking major projects at Melbourne's Art Centre and on
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returning, consulted for the RSC, National Theatre and South
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Bank Centre. Prior to her current role, she
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was Chief Operating Officer at the Roundhouse.
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Listen on to find out about how to deliver big change
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programmes, why the right culture is everything in
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projects and why you need to be a project junkie to succeed in
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the arts. As the COO, could you give me
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your perspective of how project management fits within the Royal
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Ballet and Opera House and how mature you see it as a function?
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This is probably fair to say the the nature of what this
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organisation does is a project over and over again and has been
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for decades, hundreds of years. Because in a sense, every
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production that either the Royal Ballet Company or the Royal
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Opera Company, who are both the the two companies that make up
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RBO, every production is in a sense a project.
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I mean, it's got, you know, if it's a new production, then you
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know, we are thinking about it years in advance.
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We are hiring the creative team. We are running auditions, you
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know, all the way through to a production manager who in, in
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terms of a, of a theatrical show, it's the production
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manager who is pulling together all of the, you know, other.
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Is the set being made in the right way?
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Does it, does it meet with what the designer wants?
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You know, they, they go through many stages.
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They, they call them gates from when something is first
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conceived all the way through to its first night and indeed to
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its last night. And it's being packed up and put
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in pallets and onto a, a truck that will take it down to our
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store in Wales where we keep all of our productions because many
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of them actually come back here. Very popular productions of
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Nutcracker and Cinderella and Swan Lake and Carmen and Tosco
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and all the rest of it come, come back.
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And that's, that becomes another project.
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So we are in a sense, the sort of ultimate project junkies.
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We, we are just, you know, running several concurrently and
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planning them for sometimes more years in advance.
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But that's probably not the kind of projects that that you, you,
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you're thinking of when you think, well, you know, what is
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project management like at RBO? And the, the, the work we've
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been doing probably since open up since that big project that
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we did to refurbish and refresh our front of house areas is, is
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starting to look at the back of house infrastructure and
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environment and particularly on stage.
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And that all comes really on the back of that open up project of
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saying, well, we need to do a whole lot of conditions surveys
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now about the back of house state of our of our buildings.
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And we have a long list and quite a high price tag on a lot
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of stuff that needs addressing. And we decided that if we didn't
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start by fixing things on the stage that we could see were
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beginning to fail, then that was the fastest route to us actually
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having a problem of continuing our operation.
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So we have put the majority of our focus for the moment in all
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of that stage infrastructure renewal and then beginning to
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develop out of of of comprehensive master plan for
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the entire estate over the next 78910 years to upgrade a lot of
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equipment and infrastructure and accommodation.
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We have three different sites. Majority of what we've got to do
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is here, but there will be work we've got to do everywhere.
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So that's that's what our project portfolio looks like.
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And I guess alongside that we've got a lot of IT projects we've
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been doing wanting to put in better technology.
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So projects is a continuum, but in recent years it's become a
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focus not just for what we do in terms of productions, but in in
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many different areas of the of the organisation.
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How do you see your role and responsibilities in relation to
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all these projects going on? So I understand the project
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teams report to you as COO, but could you spell out your role
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and responsibilities when it comes to overseeing the projects
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that are happening? I suppose First off, it is
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creating an environment in which people can share their concerns
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about things which are not working or not working as well.
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How do you do that in practise or to interrupt?
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Because that's really that taps into kind of one of the big
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themes of APM, which is around clarity and projects.
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And part of that is establishing the truth of what's really
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happening in a project. And part of that is creating a
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culture where people can speak up, as you say, that kind of
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psychological safety. And that was one thing that
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impressed me when I came to speak to everyone there.
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So people listening might want to know, how do you actually
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make that happen in daily life on a project?
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What any advice you could. Give.
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I mean, I, I suppose it's because operationally what we do
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has to it, it has to have safety in mind, it has to have
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excellence in mind. It is time bound.
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It is financially it will have a very strict budget.
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And if that's the environment in which you're operating at all
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times, then it is about people feeling confident that they can
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say, you know, this bit of kit is not working as well.
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It's, it's, it's, it's starting to show signs of where it's,
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it's, it's breakages are increasing.
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You know, we have a very good reporting mechanism of those
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sorts of things. And I think, yeah, a pretty open
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culture about people being able to share their concerns about,
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about things that that then, you know, that then has to be
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scrutinised and make sure, you know, this isn't about we, we,
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you know, we'd like the the latest new toy on that.
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But you know, in, in the catalogue sort of thing.
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And there are, there are competing priorities, you know,
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there, there are lots of things that we would like to upgrade
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and, and, and do in a different way.
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So I think First off, it's if you're, if, if your operation
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is, is quite tight and requires a lot of people to come together
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in the moment at 7:30 every night to deliver something.
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Then when it's not working, people are they are, they're
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pretty, you know, open to saying there's an issue here.
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And we can very quickly see how that it will manifest to a point
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where the whole operation will grind to a halt.
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You know, I remember recently we had a we had a problem in our
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goods in lift. Now that is a huge lift that
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takes an entire lorry Cavanaugh into the lift in order to
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deliver the next pieces of scenery that are going to get
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into the production sort of routine and get on stage.
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And and it failed. And it, it was interesting how
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quickly a, a group of people came together to say, we've
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mapped out what we know we've got to get in and out of the
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building in the next two weeks. And on this day at this time, we
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will get to a point where we have got to change our entire
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operation if that lift isn't back up and operating.
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So I mean that that sort of really highly tuned approach to,
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to to keeping, you know, this model of of 30 different
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productions of upfront Valley that we do every year does mean,
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you know, people have really clear when something is, is is
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going to cause a problem and, and seeing that ahead.
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But then I guess the next thing is, I suppose I have to be the
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person who's trying to put some priority to that.
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And I also need to be the person who's challenging that we don't
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just fix it or replace it like for like, but what's, what's the
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project here that takes us beyond what we've got now.
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So, you know, is, is there a way of doing this that will be
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easier to maintain, that will use less energy in the future,
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that will require fewer people, that is connected with some
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other systems that is part of an automation regime that we're
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that we're building on. And that can sometimes mean you
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have to do a very fast fix in order to then give yourself some
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time to think through actually a project that is strategic and
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and pragmatic and affordable but but but affordable long term.
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What have you learnt about getting a portfolio of projects
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like this or a programme right? Are there secrets to success
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that you've picked up throughout your career working on projects
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at cultural institutions all around the world?
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Fundamentally, I would say the first thing is about the people
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you know. Good project managers, good
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programme leads, good programme directors make all the
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difference. And that isn't necessarily just
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the person who's got the most experience.
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It's the person who is also able to maintain that sort of
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overview at a sort of, you know, 30,000 feet overview of what's
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going on, can get absolutely into the detail and you know, be
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on site, you know, hard hat in place looking at a particular
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issue and can communicate to stakeholders.
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So for me, it's you've got to be able to do the macro and the
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micro and you've got to be able to move between those things,
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being confident and genuine and engaging and commutative and
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listening across those. So I think the people probably,
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I mean, a lot of people talk and when they talk about projects,
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they very quickly in to get into talking about process or systems
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or, you know, everybody's got to use the same piece of software
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or the same language. And of course those are
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mechanisms that make the whole thing easier and means everybody
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is, is sort of on the same page. But without the right people, I
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don't think the systems and the processes hold you together.
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So I I finding good people for me is #1.
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Thank you. Do you have a particular
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managerial leadership approach that you take as COO well?
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When it, when it comes to these projects and some of them are
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very complex and you know, we've got a very limited window of
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particularly if they're on stage or in the auditorium or limited
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window that we can get into that space without disrupting
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rehearsals or performances. And I think what's really
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important is that I understand enough about what all those
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projects are. I don't, I'm not going to be the
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person who's leading it. I'm not going to be there every
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day, but I understand what it is that it's going to take so that
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we can have had them really good conversation about risk
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management and what if it overruns and you know what, what
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are the mitigations of the contingencies we need to put in
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place in advance? And then I need to, I think
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trust the people who are delivering it so high.
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Good people trust them don't get in their way with overloading
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them with, you know, needing to over report to me.
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And then I think being someone who they feel totally confident
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with coming to, to say we've got a problem.
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And so it is about trust. I think trust is a really
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important thing in projects, being able to, you know, I, I
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hire good people and trust them, but they trust that I, you know,
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will be calm and only collaborative when they say
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we've got an issue, It's got these issues, we don't know how
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we're going to mitigate. You know, and you know, I often
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use this phrase that if it's a success, it's their success.
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If it's a problem, it's our problem.
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And it's really important that they feel totally confident in
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coming to me and going. Can we just have a chat?
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We just need to show you something.
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We need to talk through the the timetable again.
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And I and I will represent that. You know, if I could go to the
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companies, I have to go to the chief executive, I have to go to
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the board and say something's happened.
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They know I will front that but and I've got their back.
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Can I ask you a bit about your career?
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You've gone from project director at RBO to Chief
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Operating Officer, which is a rare thing in the world of
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project management. To reach the kind of senior
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echelons of an organisation with a project background is rare.
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How have you found that and have you got any advice to those who
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are kind of mid senior career within projects who are looking
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to who want to take this next step up to kind of exact level?
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Is there anything you'd pass on? How have you managed to do it
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and what is different now about being COO as opposed to being
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someone purely focused on on projects as director?
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Yeah. Well, I suppose I, I came here
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for the open up project and and largely to make sure that the
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operation continued during that project and that and that and
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that we developed the operation through it.
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But actually my background has been more in the management side
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of things. I've just always enjoyed running
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a department, running several departments portfolio, you know,
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and, and running or being part of the team that's also
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delivering projects. So that, that all the way back
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to when I was at the Albert Hall for quite a long period of time,
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I was the deputy chief executive there.
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So I had a whole series of operational responsibilities.
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But what I really enjoyed was the eight years that we were, we
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were doing a rebuild, internal rebuild of the Albert Hall.
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I then went on, I went Australia for a bit and again that that it
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was, it was probably a dual role.
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And then at the Roundhouse again was COO.
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But you know, alongside running the day-to-day for me, running
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projects as well has always been, they've always gone
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together. And I personally get a huge buzz
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out of that because I like change.
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I like being part of not just running an organisation
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day-to-day, but being able to look back over three or 4-5
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years and say it's not just still running, it's running
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better because we've done these interventions.
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So I sort of see them as kind of two sides of the same coin
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rather than completely different skill sets.
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Really interesting you mentioned it's kind of the legacy you
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leave and the sense of purpose you get from that that seems so
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common among particularly senior project professionals.
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So you love delivering change? Change isn't always easy to
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deliver. A lot of people don't like
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change. That's probably the most common
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problem. Have you got any advice around
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making change happen successfully?
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Has you Is the biggest problem people not wanting to change?
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And if So, what have you worked out that actually works well?
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I think once again, if you can surround yourself with people
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who are interested, engaged, motivated by change, you know,
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if you're, if you're management team, my management team, I
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think probably I'd say across the board, they're all
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interested in delivering the sort of departmental operation
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that they're responsible for, but continually making it
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better. And I think that's maybe one of
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the things I've learnt is if you can, if you can introduce it as
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a continual rather than everybody sort of does what they
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do for five years and then somebody comes along like me and
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says, I think we should do it differently, which is
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disruptive. And you know, there's a lot of
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reason people don't like change. They're often holding on to
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things which work and which if you, if you don't put the
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analysis in, you might not realise how complicated
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something is that you think you can just, you know, wipe away
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years of people's experience and, and dedication and do
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differently. So I think trying to make it a
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continuum I think is helpful. I mean often.
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I can't quite do this with you on a, on a call, but I often
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sort of refer to my job as being, you know, if there's a
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pencil on the table, I'm, I'm just slightly pushing it and it
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doesn't look like it's moved much over a month, but in a year
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it's gone somewhere. And I, I, I think that's, I
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think that's part of how you deal with it.
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I think the other thing is in my experience, there are people who
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are really up for and motivated by change, but they tend to get
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drowned out by the people who are not.
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And I think trying to find a space for both those voices to
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be heard is important, but also can help both both sides of that
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of that view. And I think, I think listening
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is, you know, not assuming that if someone's going hold on a
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second, this isn't a good idea, that it's because they don't
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like change for change sake. And making sure that you really
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listen to the bit that they feel is so important to hold on to
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and, and make sure you play back.
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OK. When we designed this project,
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here's how I can make sure that that thing that you said was was
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at risk and was so essential still has a place to sit.
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I think what's interesting here is it's a big organisation and
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there are different ways of doing projects.
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So, you know, we have a digital team that again, like our
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production team are constantly running projects.
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They've even very much using agile techniques.
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And at the same time, the way we've done these IT projects has
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been different to the way we've done the stage projects.
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And I think again, I don't, I don't have a kind of, you know,
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I'm, I'm a fixed methodology that I think the whole of the
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RBO have got to adopt in order to deliver successful projects.
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But, but certainly over the last three or four years, we've
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become more structured as partly we're doing more, we're spending
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more money. We have to be, you know, really
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clear about how we've procured, how we've risk managed, how
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we've, you know, structured the project and how we assess its
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success. But I think a number of the team
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have been a dipped into the resources of APM.
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Found them very helpful. OK.
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That's great. That's a nice place to wrap up.
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So I just want to leave me to thank you again for your time
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been really interesting speaking, speaking to you.
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Thank you. You're welcome.
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Thanks again to Heather for joining us and to you for
23:08
listening to the APM podcast. If you're interested in finding
23:12
out more about project management at Royal Ballet and
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Opera, then listen to our forthcoming APM podcast on the
23:18
renewals programme, where we go behind the scenes for you and
23:22
look out for projects Spring 2026 issue.
23:25
Anyway, don't forget to look out for more episodes, alter rating
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