Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / Boy, 12, Dead After Just 24 Hours at Wilderness Boot Camp, Found Without Pants

Transcript

Boy, 12, Dead After Just 24 Hours at Wilderness Boot Camp, Found Without Pants · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:05
Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Grease.
0:12
Speaker 2: Did you ever go away to camp? I did four
0:17
Speaker 2: h camp and I got to go between fifth grade
0:20
Speaker 2: and sixth grade. It was one week. It was the
0:22
Speaker 2: biggest thing that happened to me in rural Bibb County.
0:28
Speaker 2: It was very well supervised. I had a great time
0:32
Speaker 2: and excelled in tree identification. Explain to me why a
0:40
Speaker 2: twelve year old boy is dead after roughly one day,
0:48
Speaker 2: not even one day at camp. Now there are reports
0:54
Speaker 2: this twelve year old little boy had a panic attack. Really, Now,
1:02
Speaker 2: I'm just a JD. I'm not an MD. But as
1:06
Speaker 2: far as I know, a panic attack does not result
1:11
Speaker 2: in frothing at the mouth and death. Now, as we
1:17
Speaker 2: look into a so called wellness camp in North Carolina,
1:24
Speaker 2: we find out there have been multiple claims of sex
1:29
Speaker 2: assault on children. Children. You know, my parents worked so hard.
1:35
Speaker 2: My mom is a bank teller working her way up
1:38
Speaker 2: the ladder, my dad working in night shift for the railroad.
1:43
Speaker 2: They had to work hard just to pay for four
1:46
Speaker 2: age camp. And I remember it was thirty six dollars
1:49
Speaker 2: in something since yes, that had to be taken out
1:53
Speaker 2: of the grocery money. I remember it happening so I
1:57
Speaker 2: could go to four age camp. You send your children
2:00
Speaker 2: to camp, and you think you're doing something good for them,
2:03
Speaker 2: giving them enrichment, making new friends, going for wellness. This
2:10
Speaker 2: boy is dead and I want answers, not a bunch
2:16
Speaker 2: of bs about a panic attack. I Nancy Grace, this
2:20
Speaker 2: is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here
2:23
Speaker 2: at Crime Stories and on Serious SEXM one eleven. First
2:27
Speaker 2: of all, what do we know happened? Listen?
2:30
Speaker 3: The Transylvania County Sheriff's Office said when they arrived at Trails,
2:35
Speaker 3: Carolina for an unresponsive participant, medics found evidence that CPR
2:40
Speaker 3: had been performed, but the child appeared deceased for some time.
2:45
Speaker 3: But now, in an odd twist of trust, the Wilderness
2:48
Speaker 3: Therapy comp in North Carolina is refusing to allow investigators
2:53
Speaker 3: to talk to staff or juvenile's present when the twelve
2:56
Speaker 3: year old died. According to a search warrant, the boy
2:59
Speaker 3: suffer to panic attack the night he arrived at the camp,
3:03
Speaker 3: and the next morning he was found cold, stiff, and
3:06
Speaker 3: frothing at the mouth, not being able to talk to
3:09
Speaker 3: staff or campers. It is unclear what caused the boy
3:13
Speaker 3: to present with frothing from the mouth. According to an
3:16
Speaker 3: affidavit from the detective that got the search warrant, froth
3:20
Speaker 3: about the mouth could indicate he ingested some sort of poison.
3:24
Speaker 2: Guys, I have an all star panel to make sense
3:26
Speaker 2: of what we're learning right now, including a young woman
3:31
Speaker 2: who went as a child to Trails Carolina. She's gonna
3:36
Speaker 2: tell us about her experience. But why all the focus
3:41
Speaker 2: on the camp now that a little boy is dead?
3:44
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I would have to go burn the place
3:47
Speaker 2: down if something happened to my child after I send
3:51
Speaker 2: them to camp. But I'm trying to understand something. For
3:55
Speaker 2: a straight out to Nick Oxenar, executive producer, chief investigator,
4:00
Speaker 2: reporter wb TV, he has been investigating Trails Carolina since
4:06
Speaker 2: twenty twenty one. Kind of hate to ask why since
4:10
Speaker 2: twenty twenty one. I'm sure I'm going to get to that,
4:12
Speaker 2: But first, Nick Oxer, thank you for being with us.
4:15
Speaker 2: How is this place build? I know it's a North
4:18
Speaker 2: Carolina wellness camp. Efforty. Anybody that can't see me, you
4:21
Speaker 2: can only hear me. Don't worry. I'm doing air quotes
4:25
Speaker 2: because there's nothing well about this where a twelve year
4:28
Speaker 2: old boy died. Now we're learning it's more like a
4:32
Speaker 2: cruel boot camp.
4:34
Speaker 4: Well, so this this camp is billed as a wilderness
4:37
Speaker 4: therapy camp, and so in theory, parents send their children
4:40
Speaker 4: there to get therapy and you know, address maybe mental
4:46
Speaker 4: health or behavioral issues. I've interviewed a number of people
4:50
Speaker 4: who attended this camp over a number of years now,
4:54
Speaker 4: and one of the last questions I asked every person
4:58
Speaker 4: who went there is did you get much therapy? And
5:01
Speaker 4: the best I can tell is this camp provides about
5:05
Speaker 4: thirty minutes to an hour of therapy about once a week.
5:09
Speaker 2: Okay, well, wait, why you know, Nick Oxner? You got
5:11
Speaker 2: me changing from the fire hunching because every other word
5:14
Speaker 2: you say, I'm trying to write it down very quickly.
5:16
Speaker 2: Nick Oxner joining US chief investigative reporter and an EP
5:21
Speaker 2: at WBTV, curious, why did you start investigating this so
5:28
Speaker 2: called wellness camp in North Carolina in twenty twenty one?
5:32
Speaker 2: What led you there in twenty twenty one.
5:35
Speaker 4: Yeah, I got a call from a concerned parent who
5:39
Speaker 4: was looking at sending their child there and started doing
5:42
Speaker 4: some research and said, we have some questions about this place,
5:45
Speaker 4: and so it got on my radar, and that I
5:47
Speaker 4: learned that a child had died at this facility or
5:52
Speaker 4: in this program back in twenty fourteen, a seventeen year old,
5:57
Speaker 4: and it piqued my interest even more. And the more
6:00
Speaker 4: we started talking to folks, the more it was clear
6:02
Speaker 4: that there was a story here.
6:04
Speaker 2: You know, I'm very curious about the teen boy. I
6:06
Speaker 2: believe you're referring to Alec Lansing. Is that correct?
6:09
Speaker 4: Yes?
6:10
Speaker 2: So is he the teen boy that left the campground
6:15
Speaker 2: and somehow ended up in a creek? Yeah, he had
6:18
Speaker 2: an accident and then landed in the creek. I think
6:20
Speaker 2: he was climbing a tree and landed in the creek
6:22
Speaker 2: and he died of hypothermia. Is that is that Alec Lansing?
6:26
Speaker 4: That is that Alec Lansing?
6:28
Speaker 2: Yeah? I got to be a question about that too,
6:30
Speaker 2: Nick Oxer, because it takes a minute to die of hypothermia.
6:36
Speaker 2: You don't just fall into the creek and die. It
6:39
Speaker 2: takes time. So how long was it that they didn't
6:43
Speaker 2: notice a teen boy was missing? And how far was
6:48
Speaker 2: his body found from the camp do you know that?
6:51
Speaker 4: Yeah? Well, and that's the thing at the time. That
6:53
Speaker 4: was another when I started looking into it that made
6:56
Speaker 4: my eyebrow go up. Right, is that the Sheriff's office
6:59
Speaker 4: at the time Glancing went missing and was ultimately found dead.
7:03
Speaker 4: They said, look, had the camp called us as soon
7:06
Speaker 4: as they knew he was gone and we started a
7:08
Speaker 4: search right away, we probably would have been able to
7:11
Speaker 4: find him. Instead, they waited, you know, twelve eighteen hours
7:16
Speaker 4: before calling nine on long.
7:17
Speaker 2: Oh, dear Lord in heaven, that's making me sick to
7:21
Speaker 2: my stomach because I don't know if you know, Nick Oxen,
7:24
Speaker 2: but my children just turned sixteen and they are babes
7:28
Speaker 2: in the woods. They you know, maybe I've kept him
7:31
Speaker 2: in a bubble too much, but to think this boy,
7:36
Speaker 2: this teen boy, was out there in that cold creek
7:39
Speaker 2: water for that long and nobody called the sheriff. Oh yeah,
7:45
Speaker 2: now I see why you were on the story. Guys.
7:48
Speaker 2: I want to get back to the twelve year old
7:51
Speaker 2: that was found cold, I think stiff, which is an
7:57
Speaker 2: issue for the medical examiner because that would give me
8:00
Speaker 2: time of death, which is really important in reconstructing what happens.
8:04
Speaker 2: Is we're not getting any cooperation from the camp, but
8:08
Speaker 2: I want to go to Gerty. Gerty is a special
8:11
Speaker 2: guest joining us. Gerty was assaulted. This is her story,
8:19
Speaker 2: I have no reason to disbelieve it at Trails Carolina.
8:23
Speaker 2: I also want to go to doctor Bethany Marshall to
8:26
Speaker 2: explain to me, she's a renown psycho analys joining us
8:29
Speaker 2: out of La Beverly Hills, what is therapy camp? Because
8:36
Speaker 2: if these children are getting one hour max. Thirty minutes
8:39
Speaker 2: to an hour of therapy a week, that doesn't sound
8:42
Speaker 2: like therapy camp to me. But that said doctor Bethany
8:46
Speaker 2: before I go to Gerty set it up for me,
8:50
Speaker 2: Doctor Bethany at doctor Bethany Marshall dot com. What is
8:55
Speaker 2: therapy camp? Why would you send your twelve year old
8:59
Speaker 2: boy to therapy camp? I'm not second guessing the parents
9:04
Speaker 2: because we actually have a friend, doctor Bethany, that sent
9:08
Speaker 2: their daughter to a therapy camp, not this therapy camp.
9:11
Speaker 2: It turned her life around, and I'd like to report
9:14
Speaker 2: she's doing very well her freshman year at college right now.
9:19
Speaker 2: And we went through a lot with that family. They
9:21
Speaker 2: went through hell trying to figure out how to help
9:24
Speaker 2: their daughter, and this one therapy camp they went to
9:28
Speaker 2: she went to really helped her. But this doesn't sound
9:34
Speaker 2: anything like that to me.
9:35
Speaker 5: You know, Nancy, probably the therapy camp or most likely
9:39
Speaker 5: called the wilderness camp they sent their daughter to had
9:42
Speaker 5: a lot of oversight trained clinicians, people coming in and out.
9:47
Speaker 5: But wilderness camp, which is what this was, is where
9:52
Speaker 5: parents send their children when all other forms of treatment
9:56
Speaker 5: have failed. Say they've sent their their children to an
10:01
Speaker 5: impatient psychiatric facility, to group therapy, to an individual therapist,
10:05
Speaker 5: to family therapy, and the child is still experiencing profound deficits,
10:11
Speaker 5: either from learning disorders, psychiatric difficulties, social difficulties.
10:16
Speaker 2: Okay, Bethany, I believe we've discussed when you're talking to me,
10:20
Speaker 2: you need to dummy down. Okay, I'm just a JD.
10:24
Speaker 2: They didn't teach any of this in law school, either
10:26
Speaker 2: at Mercery University or when I got my m at NYU.
10:30
Speaker 2: Nobody said anything about anything. You just said, please tak
10:35
Speaker 2: regular people taught doctor, Bethany.
10:38
Speaker 5: Let's say you have a child with psychological difficulties. Nothing
10:43
Speaker 5: seems to help. You send them away to a camp
10:47
Speaker 5: that's in the wild, hoping, as you said earlier, like
10:51
Speaker 5: your four ahe camp, that they will have loving adults
10:54
Speaker 5: around them, they will go hiking, and while they're hiking,
10:57
Speaker 5: they'll be talking to a therapist or sitting by a
11:00
Speaker 5: lake and then talking to another therapist and processing everything
11:04
Speaker 5: and they'll come back better. But while your friend had
11:09
Speaker 5: a great experience at her camp, most of these camps
11:13
Speaker 5: have no oversight. They are just a group of people
11:17
Speaker 5: in a profit making setting who take kids for quote
11:22
Speaker 5: unquote therapy. But often it becomes a culture of abuse.
11:26
Speaker 5: And Nancy, let me tell you how they get these
11:30
Speaker 5: kids to the camp. They go and they kid nap them.
11:34
Speaker 2: Ooh, Dodger Bethany. I noticed when I was studying the
11:37
Speaker 2: case that, and Nick Oxtar backed me up. I don't
11:41
Speaker 2: know if this is correct or not, but two men.
11:45
Speaker 2: What man took the twelve year old to the camp
11:48
Speaker 2: all the way from New York to North Carolina? What
11:51
Speaker 2: man I couldn't get clear on. That is it somebody
11:54
Speaker 2: envoys that the camp sends to as doctor Bethany says,
11:59
Speaker 2: take the.
12:00
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's a practice called They're referred to as goony
12:04
Speaker 4: and basically you hire two people to show up in
12:06
Speaker 4: the middle of the night. And I noticed from talking
12:08
Speaker 4: to several of the former participants that I've interviewed, these
12:12
Speaker 4: kids get woken up basically in the middle of the
12:14
Speaker 4: night by two strangers who you know, basically drag them
12:18
Speaker 4: out of their house and put them on an airplane
12:19
Speaker 4: and the next thing you know, you're in the woods
12:21
Speaker 4: of North Carolina.
12:22
Speaker 5: Hey, Nancy, can I say something about that?
12:24
Speaker 2: I just yeah, because I want to get to Gertie
12:26
Speaker 2: real quick.
12:27
Speaker 5: Okay, very quickly. I worked with Paris Hilton on her
12:29
Speaker 5: new show. So this is not privileged material. This is
12:32
Speaker 5: this is made public that she was kidnapped and taken
12:36
Speaker 5: to one of these camps, as we all know, and
12:38
Speaker 5: suffered extreme abuse while in the camp. But she told
12:43
Speaker 5: me that she's sleeping in the middle of the night.
12:45
Speaker 5: Two people come in. They're all dressed in that black
12:49
Speaker 5: They kidnap her. She starts screaming, my parents are going
12:52
Speaker 5: to find me. My parents are going to find me.
12:54
Speaker 5: You're going to go to jail. She looks over her
12:56
Speaker 5: shoulder and her parents are standing in the hall watching
13:01
Speaker 5: the whole thing play out.
13:03
Speaker 2: Okay, I just wish you could see Dr bethany everybody
13:06
Speaker 2: here in this studio. There's Eli, there's Jamie, there's Sid
13:10
Speaker 2: and they're all like, and you you just gave me
13:14
Speaker 2: chills over my whole body.
13:31
Speaker 1: Time Stories with Nancy Grace.
13:34
Speaker 2: I want to go to Gerdy now. Gertie, Hey love.
13:38
Speaker 2: Gertie explains to me that she is a sex assault
13:43
Speaker 2: victim and the assault occurred at Trails Carolina. I refer
13:49
Speaker 2: to her as a survivor, a survivor who's telling you
13:54
Speaker 2: her story, so maybe, just maybe this won't happen to
13:59
Speaker 2: another child. Gerny, what happened? When we start with who
14:03
Speaker 2: took you to Trails Carolina?
14:06
Speaker 6: I was transported to Trails Carolina by two transporters. They
14:11
Speaker 6: didn't take me in the middle of the night, but
14:13
Speaker 6: I had no idea that they were going to be
14:15
Speaker 6: at my house.
14:16
Speaker 2: What happened? Tell me what happened.
14:17
Speaker 6: My mom told me that there were two people who
14:20
Speaker 6: wanted to talk to me, and I went downstairs with
14:22
Speaker 6: her and they told me that I was going to
14:26
Speaker 6: a summer camp and that I would be gone for
14:30
Speaker 6: no more than a week. And then I packed a
14:36
Speaker 6: bag and got in their car.
14:39
Speaker 2: I understand why a lot of parents have difficulty getting
14:45
Speaker 2: their child to camp, because child, of course doesn't want
14:48
Speaker 2: to go. Then they'll start screaming and throwing a fit,
14:52
Speaker 2: maybe physically fighting with the parent. But the scenario that
14:57
Speaker 2: doctor Bethany Marshall correctly described as has been told by
15:01
Speaker 2: Paris Hilton, sounds forcible, like a scary kidnap. You're already
15:06
Speaker 2: what happened? When you got to.
15:09
Speaker 6: The transporters handed me off to two new staff and
15:14
Speaker 6: they brought me to a building where I was strip searched.
15:17
Speaker 2: Okay, let me just say right there. Nobody's trip searched
15:19
Speaker 2: me when I went to four H camp.
15:21
Speaker 6: Nobody's strip searched me when I went to a real
15:23
Speaker 6: summer camp either.
15:24
Speaker 2: How did that go down?
15:26
Speaker 6: They told me that I had to take my clothes off,
15:29
Speaker 6: and I didn't know what to think. I was kind
15:33
Speaker 6: of frozen in shock. I figured, I mean, I'm going
15:40
Speaker 6: home in a week. I'll call my parents as soon
15:43
Speaker 6: as this is over. I'll just get it over with.
15:49
Speaker 6: But then I wasn't allowed to call my parents at
15:52
Speaker 6: all the entire time I was there, and it wasn't
15:55
Speaker 6: a week. I was at Trails for three months.
15:58
Speaker 2: Were you getting therapy while you were there?
16:02
Speaker 6: I met with a therapist once a week, but from
16:06
Speaker 6: what I experienced with that therapist, I would not call
16:10
Speaker 6: it legitimate therapy.
16:12
Speaker 2: You have described to us that you were sex assaulted.
16:16
Speaker 6: What happened one of the other kids in my group
16:21
Speaker 6: had sexually assaulted two other kids before me, and the
16:26
Speaker 6: staff and my therapist knew that this had happened, and
16:31
Speaker 6: they did not separate us from the kid he was
16:34
Speaker 6: doing this, and I was very scared of this kid.
16:38
Speaker 6: I told them that I told them that I didn't
16:40
Speaker 6: feel safe at trails, and they assigned me to sleep
16:44
Speaker 6: next to her. I don't want to go too far
16:49
Speaker 6: into detail about it.
16:51
Speaker 7: That's unfortunately epidemic, and the conversations we've had with several
16:57
Speaker 7: multiple trail survivors, I've Gerty's was the second lawsuit I
17:01
Speaker 7: filed with almost an identical fact patterns the first lawsuit
17:06
Speaker 7: I filed, which involved my niece, and I've had probably
17:11
Speaker 7: ten conversations since then with various girls who have had
17:17
Speaker 7: an experience so similar it's almost eerie.
17:20
Speaker 2: You're hearing jenkins Man, high profile lawyer joining us out
17:24
Speaker 2: of Columbia, South Carolina representing victims of Trail Carolina. It's
17:30
Speaker 2: jenkins Man and you can find him at man Blake
17:33
Speaker 2: dot com. So, Jenkins, Gerty and your niece are by
17:39
Speaker 2: far not the only young girls who have stated they
17:44
Speaker 2: were sex assaulted at trails Carolina.
17:46
Speaker 7: No, absolutely not. And you know, as doctor Bethany said,
17:50
Speaker 7: and contrasting your four age camp experience with what these
17:55
Speaker 7: these kids have gone through. I mean, these camps are
17:58
Speaker 7: designed to humiliate you. What Gerty's not telling you is it?
18:02
Speaker 7: Not only has she strip searched the moment she gets there,
18:05
Speaker 7: but she is forced to squat and cough while naked
18:10
Speaker 7: in front of twenty one year old field staff that
18:14
Speaker 7: has no counseling training whatsoever. These are just kids who
18:19
Speaker 7: get a little training on the job there and are
18:22
Speaker 7: in no way counselors or watching these girls and boys
18:26
Speaker 7: squat and cough naked, and it just goes from there.
18:30
Speaker 7: These camps are designed to humiliate you, to break you down,
18:34
Speaker 7: to take you to your lowest and then in some sick,
18:38
Speaker 7: perverse way, hoping to build you back up better and stronger,
18:43
Speaker 7: but again without any real therapy or any real guidance
18:45
Speaker 7: to do any of that.
18:47
Speaker 8: Nancy, if I.
18:48
Speaker 5: Can just interject, in a proper psychiatric facility, the initial
18:52
Speaker 5: session is with a psychiatrist or the child is evaluated psychiatrically.
18:57
Speaker 5: When they're admitted, every child has their own room, there
19:01
Speaker 5: are lights in the hallway, Nurses with white uniforms check
19:05
Speaker 5: all night long. The only time that with the other
19:07
Speaker 5: kids is while they're doing some recreation or in group therapy.
19:13
Speaker 5: That's it. And then other professionals are coming in all
19:16
Speaker 5: the time making notes in their chart. This is such
19:19
Speaker 5: a deviation from that and such a culture of a.
19:22
Speaker 2: Few, and we have only got to the tip of
19:25
Speaker 2: the iceberg. Remember we're here today about a twelve year
19:29
Speaker 2: old little boy twelve fifth grade that is dead. Guys,
19:35
Speaker 2: I want you to take a listen to our friend
19:38
Speaker 2: Sidney Sumner from crime Online.
19:40
Speaker 9: The parents of a twelve year old boy think Trails
19:42
Speaker 9: Carolina might be just the place to help their son.
19:45
Speaker 9: Trails Carolina claims to be a leader in wilderness therapy,
19:48
Speaker 9: offering an adventure wilderness program for children who have behavioral
19:52
Speaker 9: and or emotional difficulties. The parents say their boy is
19:56
Speaker 9: transported by two men from New York to Trails Carolina
19:59
Speaker 9: Camp at Lake Talks Away, North Carolina. Their son arrives
20:02
Speaker 9: at the camp in an agitated state. The twelve year
20:04
Speaker 9: old is loud and disruptive, but he is assigned to
20:07
Speaker 9: a cabin with other children as well as for adults.
20:10
Speaker 9: In less than twenty four hours, the twelve year old
20:12
Speaker 9: boy is dead. Sheriff Chuck owenb says an autopsy is
20:16
Speaker 9: being conducted because the death appeared suspicious since the boy
20:19
Speaker 9: died at the camp less than twenty four hours after
20:22
Speaker 9: he arrived.
20:23
Speaker 2: And what are we learning about the condition of the
20:27
Speaker 2: boy's body? Listen.
20:29
Speaker 3: Investigators have yet to name the twelve year old that
20:32
Speaker 3: died at Trails, Carolina, referring to him by the initials
20:36
Speaker 3: c JH. An unidentified camp counselor told investigators that CJH
20:42
Speaker 3: was loud and irate when he first arrived at the camp,
20:45
Speaker 3: and he refused to eat dinner. The boy calmed down
20:48
Speaker 3: later in the evening and the counselor was able to
20:51
Speaker 3: provide him with some snacks that the boy ate. The
20:54
Speaker 3: counselor explained to investigators that the boy was required to
20:58
Speaker 3: sleep on the floor inside a sleep sleeping bag. The
21:01
Speaker 3: sleeping bag is inside a small tint called a BIV.
21:04
Speaker 3: According to search warrant documents, around midnight, the boy started
21:08
Speaker 3: to experience a panic attack. Two counselors stood nearby while
21:12
Speaker 3: the boy was experiencing the panic attack, but the counselor
21:15
Speaker 3: made no mention of anything being done to directly help
21:19
Speaker 3: the boy through the panic attack.
21:21
Speaker 2: No, that's not what I'm talking about. Listen to this.
21:24
Speaker 9: After the twelve year old has a panic attack around midnight,
21:27
Speaker 9: a councillor told investigators that the boy was checked on
21:30
Speaker 9: throughout the night, starting at twelve am, with additional checks
21:33
Speaker 9: on his well being at three am and six am.
21:36
Speaker 9: At seven forty five am, the boy is found dead.
21:39
Speaker 9: According to the search warrant, when investigators arrived on scene,
21:42
Speaker 9: CJH was stiff and cold to the touch. He was
21:45
Speaker 9: lying on his back, his arms were on his chest,
21:48
Speaker 9: and his knees bent upward towards the sky. Also in
21:51
Speaker 9: the search warrant, investigators noted spots of bleeding under the skin,
21:54
Speaker 9: possible petikia in the boy's lips and eyes. The CPR
21:58
Speaker 9: mask was covering the boy's face, and he was not
22:00
Speaker 9: wearing pants or underwear. His pants and underwear were lying
22:04
Speaker 9: next to his shoulder.
22:05
Speaker 2: No, No, everything you just heard is wrong. I'm not
22:11
Speaker 2: saying the facts are not correct. The facts are correct,
22:14
Speaker 2: but that is not consistent with death by a panic attack. No,
22:19
Speaker 2: joining me. Doctor Todd Barr Board certified anatomic, clinical and
22:24
Speaker 2: forensic pathologist. Doctor Barr, help me explain how wrong that
22:30
Speaker 2: scenario is. It is not compatible at all with a
22:34
Speaker 2: panic attack, which means airgo. Somebody's lying, which means there's
22:40
Speaker 2: something nefarious occurring right now. Why lie about it unless
22:46
Speaker 2: you're covering something up, doctor.
22:47
Speaker 8: Barr, Well, yeah, there's a lot of inconsistencies with these reports.
22:53
Speaker 8: Number one, My biggest concern is that when they state
22:57
Speaker 8: that they found him cold and stiff, cold and stiff
23:01
Speaker 8: means that the body's been dead for anywhere between eight
23:04
Speaker 8: and thirty six hours. You don't get cold and stiff
23:09
Speaker 8: in an hour. In forty five minutes. If he was
23:11
Speaker 8: checked on at six am, as it was reported, he
23:14
Speaker 8: should not be cold and stiff. If he was dead,
23:17
Speaker 8: he would be flaccid. Riga mortis doesn't set in for
23:21
Speaker 8: at least two hours after death. Now a caveat is
23:25
Speaker 8: if you're in a cold environment, that flows the process
23:29
Speaker 8: down even more so it's an even flower process. And
23:34
Speaker 8: I would imagine in North Carolina in February, the temperatures
23:38
Speaker 8: were probably in the forties that night.
23:40
Speaker 2: Could you get that for me? Jimmy the timp on
23:43
Speaker 2: that night, the night that CJH died and at Lake
23:49
Speaker 2: talks away. Go ahead, doctor, thank you.
23:51
Speaker 8: If he was cold and stiff at seven forty five am,
23:54
Speaker 8: as it was reported then, that means he had to
23:57
Speaker 8: have been dead at midnight when he was quote unquote
24:00
Speaker 8: having a panic attack.
24:01
Speaker 2: Oh, let me clear something up, Nick Oxner joining us WBTV.
24:05
Speaker 2: Was he cold and stiff when elle law enforcement got
24:08
Speaker 2: there or was he cold and stiff when counselors found him?
24:12
Speaker 2: And how long was the delay if any, when they
24:15
Speaker 2: called sheriff, because you were telling me about Alec Lansing,
24:18
Speaker 2: how sheriffs weren't called for at least twelve plus hours?
24:22
Speaker 2: How long did it take them upon discovery of Cjh's
24:26
Speaker 2: did body did they call sheriffs?
24:28
Speaker 4: Well, that's why I think the detail about Alec Lansing's
24:31
Speaker 4: staff in the delay is important here, Nancy. We only
24:34
Speaker 4: know what he was like when he was found by
24:36
Speaker 4: first responders, where they said rigor Mortis had already said
24:39
Speaker 4: it was cold and stiff. We don't actually have a
24:42
Speaker 4: clear understanding of when our clear answer to when he
24:47
Speaker 4: was actually discovered by camp counselors yet, because again we
24:50
Speaker 4: have two facts here that don't really square based on
24:53
Speaker 4: what the doctor is telling us, right, we know that
24:55
Speaker 4: he was in riga mortis by the time first responders
24:57
Speaker 4: show up about seven forty five eight am. But we
25:00
Speaker 4: also have camp counselors saying they checked on him at midnight,
25:03
Speaker 4: three AM, and six AM. And hopefully what we you know,
25:08
Speaker 4: get after the investigation is an explanation on how those
25:11
Speaker 4: two facts can square.
25:12
Speaker 2: That is a lie. They don't square. Counselors cannot check
25:16
Speaker 2: on him and he be alive at six a m.
25:19
Speaker 2: I believe it was six am they said they checked
25:21
Speaker 2: on sid and then he be in full rigor and
25:24
Speaker 2: cold to the touch at seven forty five. That's impossible.
25:29
Speaker 2: And Nick Oxney, you're telling me that's when LA or
25:32
Speaker 2: first responders. Law enforcement first responders got there at seven
25:35
Speaker 2: forty five, which means counselors had to find him before that.
25:40
Speaker 2: He could not Doctor Todd Barr be in full rigor
25:45
Speaker 2: in less than an hour and a half if they
25:48
Speaker 2: checked on him at six There's no way.
25:50
Speaker 8: It's just it's physiologically impossible.
25:54
Speaker 2: Twenty eight degrees, Doc, twenty eight degrees that morning, you know.
25:57
Speaker 8: And here's another interesting you know, I don't know what
26:01
Speaker 8: the frothing is all about. You can get pulmonary edema
26:05
Speaker 8: from hypothermia from drowning heart.
26:08
Speaker 5: Area to go again.
26:09
Speaker 2: Pulmonary edema, what's that?
26:12
Speaker 8: That's when your lung filled up with fluids after you
26:15
Speaker 8: die and you get frothing of the mouth.
26:17
Speaker 2: That's still inconsistent. Doctor. That takes a period of time
26:22
Speaker 2: for pulmonary edema to occur, number one and two, for
26:26
Speaker 2: it to go up your throat and come out of
26:28
Speaker 2: your mouth and nose, that takes additional time. It's not
26:31
Speaker 2: going to happen in an hour and a half.
26:33
Speaker 8: No, you're absolutely right. And when I was preparing for today,
26:38
Speaker 8: I was reading some of the materials sent to us
26:40
Speaker 8: and it says one of the staff members reportedly told
26:43
Speaker 8: detectives that he was cold to the touch and stiff.
26:47
Speaker 8: So I'm assuming that is one of the camp staff
26:50
Speaker 8: members that found him dead at seven forty five. So
26:53
Speaker 8: they're reporting to the detectives they found him cold and
26:58
Speaker 8: cold to the touch and stiff at seven. It just
27:02
Speaker 8: doesn't jive.
27:03
Speaker 2: Somebody is lying. I think I know who. But that
27:07
Speaker 2: said Eric Davis, joining me out of this jurisdiction, an
27:12
Speaker 2: expert private investigator, retired FBI special agent. Okay, that says
27:19
Speaker 2: it all right there, partner at Richardson and Davis Investigative
27:23
Speaker 2: Consulting Group. That's a mouthful. You can find him at
27:26
Speaker 2: Richardson and Davis dot com. Eric, thank you for being
27:31
Speaker 2: with us. Okay, how do I figure out who's lying?
27:34
Speaker 2: I don't think it's the medical examiner. I don't think
27:37
Speaker 2: it's the EMTs. They don't have a dog in the fight,
27:40
Speaker 2: no skin in the game. They arrived and this is
27:43
Speaker 2: what they found. And I know for a fact that
27:48
Speaker 2: rigor stiffening of the limbs doesn't happen. And this is
27:53
Speaker 2: in the light most favorable to the camp. If he
27:57
Speaker 2: was dead, they check on him at six and he
27:59
Speaker 2: dies at six one ry which did not happen. He
28:03
Speaker 2: still wouldn't be in rigor at seven five. That's a lie.
28:07
Speaker 8: They found him and he was dead at six oh one.
28:10
Speaker 8: It would take a minimum of six to eight hours
28:14
Speaker 8: to get into full riger That would take us into
28:16
Speaker 8: one or two in the afternoon.
28:18
Speaker 2: What about his underwear and his pj's totally off, his
28:22
Speaker 2: body up around his head.
28:23
Speaker 10: That's my question, Nancy, what's going on there? What's he
28:26
Speaker 10: doing in a BIV tent with no pants on, no underwear,
28:30
Speaker 10: on all the prior incidents of sexual abuse or at
28:35
Speaker 10: least alleged sexual abuse. Why is he in this BIV tent?
28:39
Speaker 10: Zipped up in a BIV tent? That's another question I have.
28:43
Speaker 10: It's going to make it really hard for the camp
28:45
Speaker 10: counselors to observe what's going on with and if he
28:48
Speaker 10: zipped up in a BIV tent, is that some sort
28:49
Speaker 10: of punishment?
28:50
Speaker 8: And why is he a bivy tent.
28:51
Speaker 11: We've done a lot of investigations and I have over
28:53
Speaker 11: sixty experienced surveys filled out, and one of the most
28:57
Speaker 11: common things that I've heard is something called they called redoing,
29:01
Speaker 11: and it's when they're wrapped in a tarp so tight
29:04
Speaker 11: that many of them report that they can't breathe. And
29:09
Speaker 11: that's the first thing that came to mind for me.
29:12
Speaker 2: Guys, you're hearing Meg Applegate. She is co founder and
29:15
Speaker 2: CEO of Unsilenced, victim of the Trouble Team industry, and
29:22
Speaker 2: advocate for survivors at unsilenced dot org. Eric, I'm going
29:27
Speaker 2: to circle back to you, Meg Applegate. This is your
29:30
Speaker 2: Baileywick jump in.
29:32
Speaker 8: Yeah.
29:32
Speaker 11: I mean, I've spoke to countless victims and one of
29:35
Speaker 11: the most common things I'm hearing is this burrito, and
29:39
Speaker 11: many are reporting that for the first week or so,
29:41
Speaker 11: they're required to be in this burrito. And they basically
29:45
Speaker 11: take a tarp, which is mentioned in the report, which
29:48
Speaker 11: is what triggered me thinking about this, and they are
29:51
Speaker 11: wrapped up so tight, and then they usually have a
29:53
Speaker 11: staff member sleep on one side of the tarp, and
29:55
Speaker 11: the point of this is to ensure they don't try
29:58
Speaker 11: to run away, and any kind of the movement will
30:00
Speaker 11: obviously wake up the staff.
30:02
Speaker 2: Okay, question, hold on, doctor Bethany Marshall, how does that
30:06
Speaker 2: help a troubled teen not to be able? You know,
30:09
Speaker 2: when the twins came home from nick you, the nurses
30:13
Speaker 2: said he suposed to wrap them really tight, swaddle them,
30:17
Speaker 2: and they were really not happy with that. I couldn't
30:20
Speaker 2: stand by to see them swaddled tightly, so I would
30:23
Speaker 2: immediately unswallow it, unswaddle them. Why would you do that
30:27
Speaker 2: to a.
30:27
Speaker 5: Teen, Nancy. They're trying to keep him from running away?
30:30
Speaker 5: Just as Meg just said that, it gets worse. What
30:33
Speaker 5: they probably did was stripped him and did not allow
30:36
Speaker 5: him to have pajamas, so he was naked from the
30:38
Speaker 5: waist down. To keep him from running away. You probably
30:41
Speaker 5: had to have clothing from the waist up.
30:43
Speaker 2: I don't know anything about them stripping him at night.
30:46
Speaker 2: H Gurny. Did that happen to you at Charles Carolina?
30:51
Speaker 2: Did they make you sleep half clothed?
30:53
Speaker 6: No?
30:54
Speaker 11: Okay, Yeah, it's been reported to me by ex staff.
30:57
Speaker 11: But apparently it is required for them to be in
31:00
Speaker 11: clothes at all times. You can't even be in boxers
31:02
Speaker 11: or without your shirt. So that's what's been reported to
31:06
Speaker 11: me by ex staff members that have come forward.
31:08
Speaker 2: Oh, Star jump in, do you know anything?
31:10
Speaker 4: No, that is a question that has another question that
31:14
Speaker 4: we still are trying to get answers to.
31:16
Speaker 2: Yeah, I've never heard of that being a technique at
31:20
Speaker 2: any of these wilderness camps where you are forced to
31:23
Speaker 2: take your clothes off to go to sleep. Jenkins, man,
31:26
Speaker 2: I think I heard you jumping in. Yeah.
31:27
Speaker 7: I was just going to say, Unfortunately, is horrific. As
31:31
Speaker 7: all this is, we shouldn't and can't be surprised by
31:34
Speaker 7: any of it. It's exactly what they did with Alec
31:37
Speaker 7: Lansing when they waited all those hours to contact the police.
31:42
Speaker 7: North Carolina is a mandatory reporter state in neither Gertie's instants,
31:47
Speaker 7: nor Clara's instance, nor any instance that I'm able to find,
31:51
Speaker 7: have they ever reported any of the sexual abuse that
31:55
Speaker 7: occurred to these girls, to these children at the camp.
31:58
Speaker 7: We shouldn't be at all prized, unfortunately that they clearly
32:02
Speaker 7: waited a period of hours and hours and hours before
32:06
Speaker 7: reporting what happened to CJH. And they do it because
32:10
Speaker 7: it's a cloak of secrecy. They have this complete cloak
32:14
Speaker 7: of secrecy where they don't want any regulation, they don't
32:17
Speaker 7: want any oversight, and they do anything and everything they
32:22
Speaker 7: can to keep what they're doing from light of.
32:25
Speaker 1: Day time stories with Nancy Grace.
32:42
Speaker 2: Another survivor of this camp trails, Carolina Catherine Riley, says
32:50
Speaker 2: that she was taken from her home much as Gertie was,
32:55
Speaker 2: much as this little boy was. That she was not
33:00
Speaker 2: allowed to shower for seventeen days. Another survivor claims that
33:05
Speaker 2: he had defecated in his pants and was forced to
33:08
Speaker 2: wear the same pair of pants for two weeks. Back
33:13
Speaker 2: to Eric Davis PI in this jurisdiction, I wonder and
33:18
Speaker 2: tell me jenkins Man in nick Auckster, do you know
33:22
Speaker 2: if a rape kit was performed on this child.
33:25
Speaker 10: It should have been it would have been standard, It
33:29
Speaker 10: should have been especially sound with this pants down.
33:31
Speaker 2: Off pants and underwear offline by his head right.
33:35
Speaker 10: In North Carolina. You're probably not. I couldn't get the
33:36
Speaker 10: toxicology reports for up to a month, and it could
33:40
Speaker 10: be longer for the medical examiner's final report. So what
33:43
Speaker 10: you got is basically the word of the detectives, coming
33:48
Speaker 10: from what the medic told the detectives, Right, But I
33:52
Speaker 10: have so many questions. I mean, the way you're going
33:54
Speaker 10: to figure out this's lilyning is you got to interview
33:56
Speaker 10: all these people. You got to interview all anyone who
33:58
Speaker 10: was there, You got to interview all the staffs, and
34:01
Speaker 10: you got to interview past people.
34:03
Speaker 2: They're not they would not allow LA law enforcement to
34:07
Speaker 2: interview the other juveniles. Listen to Sidney Sumner.
34:10
Speaker 9: Early in the investigation, detectives with the Transylvania County Sheriff's
34:14
Speaker 9: Office attempt to interview juveniles at Trails Carolina when the
34:17
Speaker 9: boy died. However, camp staff members refuse to allow investigators
34:21
Speaker 9: to interview or even see any of the other juveniles.
34:25
Speaker 9: Trails Carolina says the search warrant contains misleading statements, saying
34:29
Speaker 9: they won't discuss some details out of respect for the
34:32
Speaker 9: family and the investigation. In a statement, Trails Carolina says
34:35
Speaker 9: they did not prevent children from speaking to investigators, claiming
34:39
Speaker 9: they asked parents for permission for any children involved to
34:42
Speaker 9: speak with law enforcement and state agencies and quote be
34:45
Speaker 9: complied with each parent's preference as we are required to do.
34:49
Speaker 9: Children were moved from the area to protect them from
34:51
Speaker 9: seeing what was happening, not to avoid investigators.
34:54
Speaker 2: I'm very curious, Eric Davis, in a potential homicide, can
35:00
Speaker 2: juvenile witnesses be disallowed for speaking to sheriffs or EMTs?
35:07
Speaker 8: Not by the camp.
35:08
Speaker 10: But they are juveniles, so in North Carolina you would
35:11
Speaker 10: need their parents' permission, But the law elie the law
35:14
Speaker 10: enforcement should be getting that permission directly from the parents.
35:17
Speaker 10: So in other words, the kid can't consent to an
35:19
Speaker 10: interview without their parents' permission. But it sounds like the
35:24
Speaker 10: camp's asserting that on their behalf. But yeah, they need
35:28
Speaker 10: to be able to talk to the kids. Obviously, you
35:30
Speaker 10: got to talk to the witnesses who were there, who
35:32
Speaker 10: was in the in the bunk with them.
35:33
Speaker 2: In all my years prosecuting. I never had a parent
35:37
Speaker 2: disallow me to speak to a child witness. Never correct.
35:42
Speaker 2: I find it very unusual that no parent allowed their
35:47
Speaker 2: child to speak to law enforcement in light of a
35:50
Speaker 2: potential homicide. I want to go back to Gerdy, a
35:54
Speaker 2: survivor of sex assault at Trails Carolina. Gerty, do you
36:02
Speaker 2: believe you're the only victim.
36:04
Speaker 6: I can't speculate on what happened when I wasn't at Trails,
36:09
Speaker 6: but I do believe the survivors who I've spoken to
36:14
Speaker 6: since I was at Trails, and I believe the other
36:17
Speaker 6: two kids who are assaulted at Trails in the same
36:20
Speaker 6: group as me before I was assaulted.
36:22
Speaker 2: To you, jenkins Man, high profile lawyer representing victims of
36:25
Speaker 2: Trail Carolina. How many victims are you representing? Excuse me,
36:31
Speaker 2: alleged victims are you representing? Right now?
36:33
Speaker 7: Right now? We've got six?
36:35
Speaker 2: Were they all sex assault victims?
36:37
Speaker 7: All of them sex assault victims, all of them with
36:41
Speaker 7: prior notice to Trails Carolina before it happened, one of
36:46
Speaker 7: them assaulted by a staff member.
36:48
Speaker 2: Nick Auxner Jornios WTV. How much does this camp cost parents?
36:53
Speaker 4: Offwards of ten thousand dollars a month? So this is
36:57
Speaker 4: not a cheap thing, and it's not covered by insurance.
36:59
Speaker 4: And from what I understand, and my reporting showed that
37:03
Speaker 4: kids are there for about three months.
37:05
Speaker 5: Nancy, can I interject about that? Yes, well, my wealthy clients,
37:09
Speaker 5: wealthy patients and Beverly Hills. Often these camps are vying
37:13
Speaker 5: to kidnap the kids and take them because it's so lucrative.
37:16
Speaker 5: So one mother said, well, they said they'd take them
37:19
Speaker 5: for nine thousand, but this other person offered to take
37:22
Speaker 5: my child for twenty thousand. So there's this kind of
37:25
Speaker 5: like extortion almost from the very beginning, against the child's
37:29
Speaker 5: mental health.
37:31
Speaker 7: Yeah, and I would just interject, I think it's significantly
37:34
Speaker 7: more expensive than Nick is saying. I think it's closer
37:37
Speaker 7: almost to thirty thousand.
37:39
Speaker 2: In mine, Gurty, how long were you at Trails?
37:41
Speaker 6: I was there for three months. I think it was
37:44
Speaker 6: exactly eighty three or eighty four days that I was
37:49
Speaker 6: in their program. I don't know how much it cost.
37:53
Speaker 6: I was there in twenty sixteen, so it would have
37:56
Speaker 6: been less than it is now. But I know that
37:59
Speaker 6: my parents couldn't afford it by themselves, and they needed
38:02
Speaker 6: my grandparents help to pay for it.
38:04
Speaker 11: And that's also not counting the usually the therapeutic boarding
38:08
Speaker 11: schools they recommend after wilderness programs as well.
38:11
Speaker 2: How did your parents react when you told them you
38:13
Speaker 2: had been sex assaulted?
38:14
Speaker 6: They were horrified. My mom the other day told me
38:18
Speaker 6: that my therapist completely booped her my therapist at trails.
38:22
Speaker 2: I'm thinking through everything that we're hearing, I want to
38:25
Speaker 2: go back to Meg Applegate, co founder CEO of Unsilenced. Meg,
38:32
Speaker 2: what happened to you?
38:34
Speaker 11: Well, pretty much what you heard. I was woken up
38:37
Speaker 11: in the middle of the night. The two strangers told
38:39
Speaker 11: me we're going to do this easy way or the
38:40
Speaker 11: hard way, and they told me the hard way involved hancuffs.
38:43
Speaker 11: So I went along, put me in the back of
38:46
Speaker 11: an suv, drove me off, and I went to end
38:50
Speaker 11: up in two different programs for the course of three
38:53
Speaker 11: and a half years.
38:54
Speaker 2: Nick Auxner, it just seems so incredible to me that
39:02
Speaker 2: the lies here are so obvious, yet no criminal charges
39:07
Speaker 2: have been filed.
39:07
Speaker 4: Well, and that's why part of my current work investigating
39:11
Speaker 4: the death of this twelve year old boy is, you know,
39:14
Speaker 4: staying on regulators, state regulators, who's allowed this camp to
39:19
Speaker 4: operate freely with very little oversight and staying on criminal
39:24
Speaker 4: investigators and monitoring the court system and court documents and
39:28
Speaker 4: court paperwork to see what new details are coming out,
39:31
Speaker 4: and you know, to get to the bottom of what
39:34
Speaker 4: investigators know and what the truth is here.
39:36
Speaker 2: Question, what is a local district attorney doing about man?
39:40
Speaker 4: That would be a good question. Again, all we know
39:44
Speaker 4: so far from what authorities have said, what investigators have said,
39:48
Speaker 4: and what's been filed in court, which is really all
39:51
Speaker 4: anyone's saying at this point is from the search warrants
39:55
Speaker 4: that have been unsealed. But we've not heard anything from
39:57
Speaker 4: the local prosecutor. It's a multi county didicial districts or
40:00
Speaker 4: the prosecutor there oversees three different counties, including the one
40:03
Speaker 4: where this boy died where Trails, Carolina.
40:06
Speaker 2: Is Nick Oxtor. Who is the district attorney?
40:09
Speaker 4: Yeah, the district attorney for this judicial district is Andrew Murray.
40:13
Speaker 4: He actually is the former US Attorney to the United
40:16
Speaker 4: States Attorney for the Western District of North Carolina, A
40:19
Speaker 4: seasoned prosecutor.
40:21
Speaker 2: Really, I just so happened to have his phone number
40:25
Speaker 2: eight two eight six nine to four four to two
40:29
Speaker 2: hundred repeat eight two eight six nine to four four
40:34
Speaker 2: two one hundred. Why is this case not being classified
40:41
Speaker 2: as a homicide? What will the autopsy report reveal to?
40:47
Speaker 2: Doctor Todd Barr board certified anatomic clinical forensic pathologist. What
40:52
Speaker 2: do you make of it, doctor Barr?
40:54
Speaker 8: I have a couple of points. The part of this
40:57
Speaker 8: that really is most surving to me is when somebody,
41:02
Speaker 8: it might have been unancy, that said they found possibility
41:06
Speaker 8: of patiquia around the mouth and the eye. That's particularly
41:11
Speaker 8: worrisome for me.
41:13
Speaker 2: Doesn't that indicate asphyxiation?
41:15
Speaker 8: It could very well indicate that he was suffocated, asphyxiated,
41:19
Speaker 8: smothered in some way of flight pressure to his neck
41:24
Speaker 8: to cause those blood vessels to break and cause these
41:26
Speaker 8: little hemorrhages to occur. The one thing I just I
41:31
Speaker 8: do want to state one other thing, and this I'm
41:35
Speaker 8: not justifying what happened to this boy, but there is
41:39
Speaker 8: this thing called paradoxical undressing when people are suffering from hypothermia.
41:44
Speaker 8: And I've done many cases where people have been found
41:46
Speaker 8: with their clothing off. When you're in really cold temperatures
41:50
Speaker 8: and you're suffering from hypothermia, your brain can interpret that
41:55
Speaker 8: as being hot and many people when they're in these
41:59
Speaker 8: cold environments start to take their clothes off because they
42:02
Speaker 8: feel warm and hot.
42:03
Speaker 2: I've thought about paradoxical hypothermia because I've encountered on several occasions.
42:10
Speaker 2: And I'm curious if the twelve year old boy all
42:16
Speaker 2: we know and by is c J H was suffering
42:18
Speaker 2: from paradoxical hypothermia where you're so cold you think you're hot.
42:23
Speaker 2: It has happened, why, I would assume the first thing
42:27
Speaker 2: you take off would be your shirt, right when you're hot.
42:32
Speaker 8: Correct and and and that's why I find the idea
42:35
Speaker 8: of the petikia very troublesome. And also he could he
42:40
Speaker 8: could develop this pulmonary edema, this frothing fluid that comes
42:44
Speaker 8: out of the lungs from being asphyxiated as well. So
42:48
Speaker 8: you know this this frothing is a non specific finding
42:52
Speaker 8: that happens in many forms of death. But it's it's
42:56
Speaker 8: really the petikia that that troubled me the most.
42:58
Speaker 2: I agree, this smells.
42:59
Speaker 8: Too much like foul play to me. I would really
43:03
Speaker 8: love to know what was found at autopsy. There are
43:06
Speaker 8: other internal findings that you can find that may indicate hypothermia,
43:12
Speaker 8: but there are also other findings that you can see
43:14
Speaker 8: at an autopsy, not with.
43:16
Speaker 2: A particia busted burst, Doctor Barr.
43:19
Speaker 8: I want to know if he had hemorrhage in his
43:20
Speaker 8: neck muscle, so that would also be an indication of
43:23
Speaker 8: a sixtia.
43:24
Speaker 2: Can you think of any reason if he had had
43:27
Speaker 2: this twelve year old boy peridotscyal hypothermia that the particular
43:32
Speaker 2: in his eyes and around his mouth would be burst?
43:36
Speaker 2: What I can't thank you?
43:39
Speaker 8: Yeah, you would never get patikia from hypothermia, never, which
43:43
Speaker 8: completely rules out peridotscyl hypothermia, the particuli.
43:48
Speaker 2: We asked the Camp Charles Carolina to come on with
43:54
Speaker 2: us to give a statement. Guess what they didn't want
43:57
Speaker 2: to answer my questions. Why if you have or think
44:02
Speaker 2: you have information relating to the death of this little
44:07
Speaker 2: boy twelve years old, please call eight two eight eight
44:13
Speaker 2: eight four three one zero eight repeat eight two eight
44:17
Speaker 2: eight eight four three one zero eight and reminder the
44:22
Speaker 2: elected district attorney elected because in that jurisdiction they trust
44:28
Speaker 2: him to do something. Andrew Murray eight two eight sixty
44:35
Speaker 2: ninety four forty two hundred, or you can go all
44:40
Speaker 2: the way to the North Carolina Attorney General nine one
44:44
Speaker 2: nine seven, one six sixty four hundred. We Wait for
44:51
Speaker 2: Justice two Unfold. Goodbye Friend,