Latest / Skin Anarchy / Terri Vinson, Author, keynote speaker, Australian Scientist and Founder of Synergie Skin

Transcript

Terri Vinson, Author, keynote speaker, Australian Scientist and Founder of Synergie Skin · Skin Anarchy

• 0:01
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• 1:11
  SPEAKER_02: So without further ado, I'm going to introduce you guys to Terry Vinson, who is the founder and brilliant mind behind Synergy Skin.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know if you guys had a chance to check out our top pick selections from last year, but you know, Synergy Skin was on there no matter what.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_02: You know, we we really um we we really love the brand and we love the moisturizer that was mentioned.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_02: But welcome to the show, Terry.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_02: I'm so glad you're here.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_02: Lovely to be here.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, it's lovely to host you and such an honor to host you.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_02: I want to get started by you telling us about yourself.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_02: You know, how did you get into um your career path?
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_02: You know, what made you go down this road and all the great things that led up to now?
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it's it's it is a long story because I'm I'm no spring chicken, but I started, I think I started my journey as a as a school kid.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_00: I was your typical science nerd, always uh, you know, asking questions of the teacher.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_00: If something didn't make sense, I'd really drill down.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_00: And I had an absolute love for uh for biology and chemistry, had a really influential biology teacher.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_00: And interestingly, my dad, you know, this is this is back in the 70s in primary school.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_00: My dad was a fierce um feminist of his time.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, I was I was in an all-girls school, and and they said, you know what, you could do um other things, you know, you you'll marry well.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_00: I know this is so foreign to to women listening to this podcast today, but that's what they said back then.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_00: And I wanted to do science, I wanted a career in science, and my dad said, No, do what you want to do.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_00: So um I pursued a career in science, went to Monash University, majored in immunology and microbiology, and but I also had this real tug for um the beauty industry and connecting with people.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_00: And and when I finished my degree, I was offered um to do research at the Alfred Hospital, and I thought, no, I don't want to be stuck behind a microscope, I want to work with people, and that kind of pushed me into an industry of what I call self-confidence, and I think beauty is often misunderstood because it's not about the surface, it's often about how we feel on the inside.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_00: And for me, I wanted to make a difference in that respect.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_00: And my my talent at the at the time it still is is biology and chemistry and and and the human biology in particular, and so I went in and uh pursued a a degree in um formulating chemistry.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_00: So uh that's how synergy started.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_00: I started producing my own skincare, formulating, but I was a bit of a late bloomer.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_00: I was I was doing it for another company in my 30s, and in my 40s, I began my own skin clinic.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_00: Not being a um a beauty therapist, I hired some amazing women to do the treatments, but I started formulating my own brand at that time.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_00: And and it just it was it was like a little cult following in this clinic in Melbourne, and it just grew and grew to the point where I started to um to take it to a larger market.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_00: The GFC hit and I closed the clinic because nobody could afford to have treatments, but they couldn't not afford to have my skincare, and that was my light bulb moment.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_00: So I closed the clinic, opened up a lab in Melbourne, and everything headed north ever since.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_00: And uh today Synergy is is uh is a much bigger brand than it was back then.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, it's a global brand.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_02: Oh my gosh, and it's it's such well deserved for the brand.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I'm just floored.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_02: You have such an impressive background.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_02: I love that.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_02: That is like it's so rare to see um truly, you know, not only a scientist, but a female scientist who has done things without hesitation, without boundary, you know what I mean?
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_02: Like in the sense of like just go get the knowledge.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_02: And I love seeing that.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_02: And I love that that's what you stand for because it shows in your products.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I and that's something I I want to just say early in the episode in the sense of like, you know, um, for me, skincare was never, I mean, it's beauty, but it was always this beautiful, like chemistry lab, right?
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_02: You know, Terry, it was like so that's that's where, like, you know, what in chemistry, as a lot of us find out, you know, who are in our in the sciences, something happens immediately, you know, you see that reaction take place, you see that change.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_02: And that is, I think, what draws me to skincare.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I think and yeah, it's so true.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_00: And and the word synergy for me is so much more than just the name of the brand, it's the synergy between the the chemistry that happens within within the formulation, the can't, the the chemistry and the biology of the skin and the compatibility with the skin.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_00: So synergy was just it just means so much to me that brand name.
• 5:39
  unknown: Absolutely.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_00: Except it's got an IE, not a Y, at the end.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_02: It's awesome.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_02: I I really, really love the name.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_02: And I I just wanted to, you know, we kind of went on a tangent, but like your background, that's what I wanted to highlight because people don't understand, like the to create a skincare line is a very, you know, it's like the best science experiment ever, you know?
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_00: It is, it is.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_00: And and for me, it's it's the it's the results.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, I'd spend a long time in my lab back in the day, it was just me in my lab creating things, and then I'd I'd create a base formula and send it off to a compounding pharmacy because at in those days I didn't have the Izo accreditation, and I was not going to create products for consumers in my own small lab that didn't have those um the the um the strict guidelines around it.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_00: So I create a base formula in my own little lab, then I'd put that on my spreadsheet, take that to um the the compounding chemist and say, please make this according to this formula and this method.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_00: And and then you start seeing results on women and their confidence grow.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_00: And it it's it's actually it's it's goosebumps when that happens.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_02: That's so cool.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_02: I love that.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_02: No, I I I bet, I bet.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_02: And I'll I want to actually, uh, you know, the next step in the conversation I really wanted to ask you.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_02: So your career is amazing, your background's amazing.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so when you were like, you know, you had mentioned that you were doing this for another company, but then when you started to decide, when you decided, you know, I'm gonna make my own line, I'm gonna do this.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_02: Um, what were some of the things that were, I don't know, if they're hurdles or just things you had to get through?
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_02: You know, because I feel like when you have such solid science, you know, it's it's like all these little things on the side are probably so distracting, right?
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_02: So I'd love for you to talk about the entrepreneurial journey that happened for you.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it was for me, um I just a little bit of personal background.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I feel like I was always wanting to make a difference with science and and also make my mark.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um I'm actually adopted, so I think for for we women and men who who are adopted, I think that we often find that we need a place to belong in this world.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_00: And and I and had that huge yearning to to find my mark.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so that was a massive drive, and it kind of made me a little bit fearless to drive my way forward, but um not trying to take the world by storm on day one, and I realized it's a slow burn.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, particularly in the field of science, you you know, there's evidence you have to you have to create uh a product that actually works.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_00: There's a lot, you know.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_00: I know you in America there's a brand uh released in skincare, you know, every single day.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_00: So there's so much white noise out there.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_00: So for me, I had to be fearless.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember I was I was sitting in, I was actually only 40, and I'm I'm in my late 50s now, and and I started, I'd already been formulating, but I was starting my own brand at the age of about 40, and I sat down and I thought, what can I bring to the market that makes me stand out?
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_00: And I actually had a list, I was waiting for my daughter to come out of the cinema, she was only a little girl then, and I wrote down, okay, female scientists, and I think that makes a real difference.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I think women and and the beauty industry is predominantly women buying products for themselves and often their partners as well, but women trust women.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I thought, I'm a female scientist, I know what women want.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_00: And also I thought there was a gap in the market for what I needed.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I was I was 40, I was aging.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_00: To my mind, there was nothing out there that I knew was going to really work, and the dosages weren't stated, so I didn't know.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, it might have had um retinol in it, but I didn't know what dosage, and if it if it's a small dosage, it's not going to do anything.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_00: So I thought, well, I know what dosages work, and I can make it myself, and I can help others, so I can do that.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_00: So I think being a female scientist in this world is a really big plus for the skincare industry and having total control over everything.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_00: And also, I wanted to bring what I called clean science into the industry, and I definitely was a pioneer of that.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_00: Clean beauty has been huge in the last 10 years.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I actually IP and own the phrase clean science in a number of regions around the world, and it's not natural.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_00: So a lot of people say, Oh, is your skincare natural?
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_00: It's not.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_00: It is the best of biological, biological nature and natural ingredients, but also harnessed with laboratory-made ingredients.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_00: And they are made in a laboratory, but they are not dangerous.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_00: So, so to me, clean science is the best of science and nature harnessed together without questionable ingredients.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_00: And again, I'm not a fearmonger, so I'm not going to say that parabens are going to kill you or phthalates or propylene glycol or whatever, but I choose to use ingredients that I know have the safest and also most ethical background to them.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_00: And that to me is clean science.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_02: I, you know, I fully echo and, you know, just confirm my own mind, you know, and to everybody, I I feel the same way, you know.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_02: I feel like good science is clean beauty.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_02: And I want to, you know, say things like this, or you and I can sit here all day, or if we invited, you know, another science of the doctor, they we all get it in the science community.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_02: We understand that there is a way to conduct real scientific uh, you know, um experiments and and find that information and apply it.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_02: But what how do we get consumers to understand this?
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_02: You know, Terry, like that's where I get so wrapped up and I get so mad about these naming conventions in this industry about you know clean beauty and you know, natural beauty and green science.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_02: That's like, can we just like you know, erase all of it and let scientists write down what each of these things mean?
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_00: Like, yep.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I agree with you.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_00: It's that's so tricky.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_00: I think what we need to do is is that the brands need to find their platform.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_00: And I think a lot of brands, and particularly where the scientist isn't the owner of the brand, just get caught up in these buzzwords of clean beauty, green beauty, and go, Oh yeah, I'm green and clean and everything.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_00: But what is your platform?
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_00: See, I haven't got a natural platform.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_00: I know specifically what my platform is, I know specifically what ingredients I will not formulate with, and I will tell you why I won't.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_00: And and so I think there's a lack of clarity within the businesses themselves.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_00: They need to be very clear with the consumers what they won't include and why they won't include them.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_00: And throughout our website, we will explain what clean science is, and it's it's really simple.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_00: So I think, you know, I think we need to be clear in it with our vision for our products, um, but also not be um uh alarmists.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_00: And I think there's a lot of companies out there that that that sell by fear, and I'd rather I'd rather my ingredients and my formulations stand on their own merit.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_00: And yes, as a sideline, I won't include ingredients A, B, C, D, E, because I believe that there are safer and more ethical ingredients, and ethical is important too.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_00: For example, a lot of my ingredients I'll use from ethically sourced, or most of all of them, ethically sourced areas, and we won't rape and pillage the environment.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_00: And it's another interesting thing from a scientific perspective, um, just a bit of a nerd out, there's an ingredient that's actually is excreted by bacteria from seaweed in a very specific place in France, and it's fantastic at stimulating our own um epidermal stem cells.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_00: So I've got two choices.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_00: I can either rape and pillage the seaweed and take that from the coast of Brittany, or I can get the bacteria that lives on the algae and clone it in a laboratory and make pure, sustainable ingredients that don't impact the environment.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_00: These are synthetic ingredients, but they're perfectly safe and they're more sustainable.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_00: So there's a really good sustainable story for ingredients that aren't actually natural, but are the best of science and nature, if that makes sense.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, yeah, it absolutely makes sense.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_02: And I and I you mentioned, you know, the culturing aspect of it.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's, you know, it's truly um it's very revolutionary what you're doing here.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_02: And I and I want to really kind of focus in on some key uh line because um I think it's very important that we give people an understanding of why certain products need to be um, you know, used together or how to really figure out, you know, what it what are the products you need in a normal everyday that can be used everyday routine.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_02: And I would love for you to walk us through the products you really like the best if you were to just blindly recommend.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_02: I know that's a very hard question because none of us ever blindly recommend, right?
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_02: But it's like you can just line.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, I know that whatever you pick is going to be great.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_02: And so just whatever you think is like a three-step routine and why the science makes sense.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_02: I would love for you to go through that.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, well, um, for I think there's there's four products that every woman needs at virtually every stage of her life.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_00: And I would say that would be um vitamin A.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_00: And there's two ways you could you could apply that in a non-prescription method, and that is liposomally encapsulated retinol, or a new ingredient which I am just blown away with, which is called hydroxypinacolone retinolate, or I call it HPR for short.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_00: So vitamin A, and you use that at night.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_00: Vitamin B, niacinamide, vitamin B3 is a game changer.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_00: It is the ultimate multitasker, it increases ceramide productions to hold in moisture, it increases all the major proteins in the skin, filigrin, involucrin, keratin, and collagen.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_00: It increases the immunity of the skin.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_00: So when your skin is subjected to environmental assault, it can defend itself better.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you get uh you get less inflammation.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_00: Vitamin B, if I ran out of my vitamin B serum, I would panic.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_00: And and thirdly, vitamin C, you need your antioxidant.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_00: All the white papers are written on alascorbic acid, but not everybody can tolerate that.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_00: So there's a couple of derivatives that I actually really like.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um, ascorbal tetraisopalmitate is one.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_00: There's a lot of derivatives out there that actually don't cut it in terms of converting to aloscorbic acid in the skin efficiently or absorbing into the skin.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_00: So my favorite personally is aloscorbic acid.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_00: So ABC and zinc, so I call it ABC zinc.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_00: And um zinc oxide is a sunscreen, I believe, in um the physical sunscreens, the ones that sit on the top of the skin.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but that's not to say that there aren't any chemical absorbing sunscreens that will come up in the market later, but there's a little bit of a link to um hormonal imbalance, and also we know that there's photosensitivity linked with the non-physical sunscreen.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_00: So you absolutely need a sunscreen every day, either in your makeup, built into your makeup, or as a standalone moisturizer.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_00: And the other thing I'm loving, and this is something I've only developed in the last three years, is um balancing the skin microbiome.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_00: And uh, we need ingredients that actually optimize the growth of the good bacteria and reduce the growth of the bad bacteria.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_00: So we we have a mixture of a pre and a probiotic in a pre-serum elixir, if you like.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_00: So I would say microbiome balancing vitamin A, vitamin B, vitamin C, and zinc oxide sunscreen for everybody.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_00: I use the A and B at night, your C and sunscreen in the morning, and your um microbiome balancer both morning and night.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_00: So that would be my basic routine.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_00: And then if you've got any specific concerns, for example, anti-aging, you go for a particular uh product or and serum that that addresses that.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_00: You may have pigmentation concerns, you may have very inflamed skin or acne, and that's when you go for your targeted products and your targeted ingredients.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_00: But ABC and microbiome balances and sunscreen are for everybody.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_02: That's amazing.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_02: I see, I love that.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_02: I love how she and it makes sense because you want to balance your skin, you want to protect it, and you want to make sure that it's adequately nourished, which is with the vitamin B.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_02: I love that.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_02: It's just such a it's so simple, it's simple, but it's sophisticated.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_02: And I feel like that's real science.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_02: Everything that is truly scientific discovery, I've all if they have one thing in common, and that's simplicity and sophistication.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, and it's right, actually, you have to look at the evidence.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_00: And this is my other really, uh I'm so strong in this.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_00: What bothers me is you'll you'll walk into uh pharmacies or supermarkets and you'll see calling out these ingredients, but they don't call out the dosage and they don't they don't look at the evidence.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_00: So for me, if I'm if I'm presented with a new ingredient or I find a new ingredient and I have found a couple recently, I will absolutely do my due diligence and research for months.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_00: It has to have the in vitro data for a start, but that's not enough.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_00: Just doing it in a test tube isn't enough.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_00: Then you have to have the in vivo data, and that has to stack up.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_00: Then it had then the chemistry has to stack up and the compatibility with other ingredients in my formulation.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_00: So it's not just throwing things in a beaker, giving it a stir and slapping it on somebody's face.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_00: It is so far from that.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_00: It is the science, and these the and we have to have the dosage right.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you don't just throw a whiff of of HPR or um niacinamide in a product and say it's got vitamin B3, it's going to transform your skin.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_00: What is the minimum dosage that will have that effect?
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_00: And what and how far can you take it to have an even more prolonged effect or pronounced effect?
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_00: So, yeah.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_02: That's a that's an excellent point.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_02: And I actually want to say, you know, in a chemistry lab, if you were taking chemistry, general chemistry, that your professor would never say, Oh, let this be a natural reaction.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_02: Everybody would why that's not even a thing, you know, and the reason I say that is because no matter if it's happening in nature or it's happening in the lab, the the happening part, right, of a of a natural reaction taking place is a very controlled environment, like an environmental specific reaction.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_02: And that's where um, you know, you really need to hone in on, I think, in terms of like differentiating again, clean beauty, green, all these words, natural beauty, right?
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_02: Because we have to recognize that just because this is being made in a lab doesn't mean it's not a natural beauty thing.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_02: It's because, you know, natural beauty to me implies exactly what you're saying.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_02: I'm just saying like a step further in terms of thinking about it, when you look at nature and what's occurring in nature, it's the same, it's like an experiment.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_02: So if you look, you know, every time you look at something working, it's an experiment.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_02: And we need to understand that as consumers.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_02: So when you look at brands, you don't need to buy the brand that has the weird mushroom that grows on in the Himalayas directly in the line and in the actual ingredients.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_02: You need to make sure that the person formulating it is able to understand what that chemical and the structure of that molecule does in real, you know what I mean?
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, absolutely.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and and it's you know, that and if you I just think it's really important to trust the manufacturing process.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_00: It's near exactly your right, it's not just about what's on the product.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_00: There are so many, so many elements to this, you know, and this is where I think scientists versus concept developer, there there's such a there's such a difference between those two areas.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_00: And you can have a skincare line that has an amazing concept developer and he's the he or she is a marketing guru and really gets how the market's going to going to embrace this product.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_00: That's that's good, okay, but that's not going to cut it for me.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_00: For me, you have to have a scientist behind it, and they have to understand the chemistry and the science, and then I will take it to my marketing department.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_00: If I if I have something that I believe is valid and works, and I've done all the work I can on this product, then I leave it to my marketing team to spread the word, but they'll also talk about the science.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_00: And and Synergy is certainly not a um uh I wouldn't say it's a brand that just um rides on the coattails of trend.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_00: We definitely um are based on evidence.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_02: No, absolutely, and I think that that definitely shows, you know, in every aspect of the line.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I want to actually um at this point because you know how much I love your products and why.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_02: Because um, in terms of the product that was recommended on our pop picks uh list for 2021, I I included the moisturizer, right?
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_02: With um with the SPF in it.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_02: And I the reason I did that over zinc, yeah.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, over zinc, yeah.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_02: And I I really like what you said about um, you know, using zinc in a formulation because there's something I feel very strongly about when it comes to SPF formulations.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_02: And I love, I would love to get your insight on this.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_02: Um I submitted a paper today about how all of these blue light claims by companies that are not really led by, you know, real scientists are monetizing off like like false data, like false interpretation of data.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_02: And I um, you know, we were going through the literature and whatever, and we realized that there's no real significant reason to be protecting your face against blue light, if you really think about it.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_02: But you should know what the wavelengths of blue light are, you know, and if if they're covered in the spectrum of the, you know, the ingredients that are being made of good SPF, right?
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_02: So that makes sense um just to anybody.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_02: And so what, you know, I want to get your opinion on this whole blue light movement, um, especially because you've created such an awesome uh SPF product.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_02: I absolutely love that moisturizer.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_02: It's literally like the most non-way of, you know, it's it's it's so like it's just there.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_02: You know the protection is there and you don't have to think about it because I hate putting SPF on top of everything else.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_02: It's like too heavy for me.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_02: So as a consumer, I appreciate the um, I guess, practicality of the product.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it's it's very practical.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_02: So can you tell us about that and what you're formulating SPF?
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_00: So Uber Zync to me um was the start of a it had to it had to be a beautiful moisturizer, but it also had to protect.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_00: There's no point in making me making a product unless it has um an amazing side benefit.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_00: But the again, the dosage was really important.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_00: So it had to have over 20% zinc oxide.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_00: I love zinc oxide, apart from it being an amazing, not only UVB, which is your SPF, so SPF only measures one part of the spectrum, which is UVB, the burning rays, but it also protects you against UVA, which are the were the rays that get much deeper into the skin, break down the collagen, also contribute to skin cancers, and are far more insidious because UVA doesn't burn you, so you can't see it, um, uh the damage it's doing.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_00: It comes back later in life and afterwards.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_00: So it had to be UVA and B protective.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_00: And in fact, zinc oxide is the only ingredient that is um accepted by the FDA as being very, very high protection for both UVA and UVB.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_00: So hands down, it's my favorite ingredient.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_00: Also, interestingly, it's anti-inflammatory.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, back in the day, um, we'd put zinc zinc cream on baby's bottoms to prevent nappy rash, so it brings down inflammation.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_00: So we're finding a lot of people with reactive skin love it.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so that was that was uh the reason for Uber zinc.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_00: But interestingly, with the blue light discussion, and I know exactly that some of the papers you've been reading, Ecta, blue light per se can be really good for the skin in certain skin conditions.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_00: For example, blue light for acne goes deep into the skin and actually works on um the inflammatory markers in the sebaceous glands or the inflammatory molecules on the sebaceous gland, it reduces the inflammation of acne.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_00: That's why blue light and going out in the sun for people with acne can be good.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_00: We don't want too much, obviously.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_00: However, there is evidence, and I've just been to a conference um uh talking about this, uh, blue light does uh actually exacerbate melasma and certain types of skin pigmentation conditions.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_00: So it's for a specific type of skin.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_00: So if you are prone to pigmentation issues, um blue light can be a problem.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_00: And we're talking about uncontrolled blue light, we're talking about solar blue light, and that that part of the spectrum goes very, very deep into the skin.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_00: And they've discovered that not zinc oxide but iron oxides actually are blue light protective, and you but you need it at over 3% dosage in the formulation.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_00: So um, so uber zinc is not blue light protective, but I I have created a mineral makeup range with over three percent iron oxides, which will protect you from um having pigmentation issues if you are prone to that.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_00: But in some cases, blue light can be beneficial from the skin.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_00: So this for the skin.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_00: So there's definitely um different schools of thought on that.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_02: No, I I think um that that's a really thank you so much for that um, you know, the explanation because I think um people don't understand that there is a real reason for using something that has the word oxide at the end of it.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_02: So I would love to that um in terms of chemistry, like why that matters, you know, the oxide.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it's it's these are metal oxides, so you've got zinc, titanium, and iron, they're all metals.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_00: So when you compile combine it with oxygen, you've got a stable oxide compound, and these compounds are able to be protective.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_00: Titanium dioxide is also UVA, UVB protective, not quite as high in the UVA end as zinc oxide, and then your iron oxides also have UVAB, but very, very high in the blue light end.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_00: So it depends on on their actual chemical nature, they'll have different effects on the skin, and also in in other areas of of of industry as well.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_02: Interesting.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, no, I I think that that's a that's a very important area, I think, that we need to shine, I mean, light on, no one intended.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, it's it's really a very dark and gray area in beauty, is this idea of what does it mean to protect your skin?
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_02: You know, and a lot of people are really monetizing on this, like, you know, the these gray area areas.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_02: And I think, you know, there's for me from a talk, and I think you can appreciate, like, you know, from a toxicology perspective, especially because you've you've done so much work in micro and stuff, is that you can't keep letting people layer on ridiculous amounts of skincare on in a topical way, because it's going to, it goes into your bloodstream and eventually it's going to have some sort of reaction or sort of you know downstream sequelae are going to occur.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_02: So I I really want your opinion on this in terms of, you know, just how do we stop the trending and the, you know, like you said, fear-mongering and just impulsive buying when we see this new scientific, you know, idea come up, right?
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_02: A brand is like, oh, well, look what we discovered.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_02: And everyone flocks to that idea because, you know, I think brands like yours are they're they're timeless, right?
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_02: Like the science is timeless.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_02: It works.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_02: If science works, it works.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_02: And I get very disheartened when I see people just flock to the new flashy thing because uh it's it's starting to become like a health thing, you know.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_02: I I'm starting to worry about consumers because these people don't know what they're formulating, you know, the things you're buying.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_02: So I'd love to get your opinion on that.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_00: Well, again, we we hike back to industry transparency, and I think um that's still lacking in in our industry.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and even, I mean, we will be very transparent about our ingredient.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_00: Our ingredient list is is in, you know, even sometimes I'll pick up a product and I can reverse engineer something in my lab within a couple of days, and you'll find you'll you'll pick up something on a shelf and say, okay, these this is what they're claiming.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_00: So you can pretty much work out the percentages from the order in the list if their order is in fact correct.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_00: But often um the order is incorrect, and so it always goes from highest constant, highest dosage to lowest dosage, and anything at the 1% dosage can be in any order.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_00: But you can't you kind of know certain things will be under a percent.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_00: Often peptide actives will be under a percent.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_00: So just because something's low down on the list doesn't mean it's not going to work because you may say you may find that um half a percent of this peptide will reduce fine lines um by 10% within 40 days, for example.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_00: That might be the data.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_00: So it will be low on the list, but it will still work.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_00: But a lot of companies might try and put it higher on the list so the consumers will have the perception that there's lots of it in there.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_00: So we need to be very open and transparent, and most companies are, but a couple of products I've picked up, there is no way they could have that much of a particular ingredient in their product because I know the dosage and I also know how much it costs.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes these ingredients are thousands of dollars per kilo, so they'd be losing money if they sold it for that.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_00: So it's it's just it's interesting um reading the labels.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_00: I think I would love um to uh the actually in my book Um Skin Formation, I have a little chapter on how to read labels of skincare, so you can be a little bit more empowered when you go to to the to the pharmacy or the or the cosmetic counter yourself, um, and it talks about percentages and how to understand what's in the products.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um, in terms of skin health, Ectora, I think um, again, I in just targeting a routine for you, not having to layer a thousand products on your face in huge quantities, um, be mindful of what you're putting on your skin.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_00: We do absorb over one kilo of ingredients in our skin each year, and I'm not going to call them toxins because some of them aren't necessarily toxic, some of them aren't stored.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_00: But what I do worry about is particularly some of the um ingredients that are stored in the body, um, and also the ones that can cause reactivity.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_00: And and there but there are new findings all the time.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I love science because it is dynamic, it's always changing.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_00: There are new ingredients, but but we have to make sure that we understand the science and we understand it that we may have a finding.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_00: For example, I formulated with phenoxyethanol um when I started almost 20 years ago because there was no there was no um research done on this particular preservative that was negative.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_00: But then there were some findings that that there weren't great results with with particular reactions, etc.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_00: So I said, okay, it's not um a deadly ingredient.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_00: None of these ingredients are deadly, but you know what, I'm going to choose alternatives.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_00: I'm going to choose naturally derived preservatives from now on with a really good safety profile.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_00: And if something comes up and I find out one of my ingredients I have in my lab at the moment hasn't got a great profile, which is unlikely, but it could happen.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_00: And that's science.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_00: Guess what?
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_00: I'll remove it and find a safer alternative.
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_00: And that's what I love about science.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_00: It's dynamic, but you have to stay on the coal face of it.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, 100%.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_02: And you have to really watch your experiment.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_02: Watch your experiment, you know, make sure it's not going the wrong direction.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_02: And if it is, figure out why.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_02: And yeah, I 100% agree with you, you know.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_02: And Terry, I think the this idea, you know, and the whole conversation really has really uh for me even validated the idea that we have to propagate science to consumers.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_02: We can't, yeah, you know, people have to get used to feeling like, you know, they're approaching something with a method, a protocol of how to discern information, make sure that it's relevant, make sure that it's answering questions that you have about real health problems.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_02: Like, you know, I'll go on to Reddit, for example.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_02: I go on there every single day and I've been really enjoying it.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I'm not gonna lie, because you see so many unique pictures and cases and the things that day-to-day consumers are dealing with, right?
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, a lot of it is redness, a lot of it is rosacea-like manifestation of some sort of a reaction that's taken place.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_02: And all of these people are like, Well, what's wrong with my skin?
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_02: Do I have psoriasis?
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_02: Do I have rosacea?
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm like, wow, you know, there's a problem when you can only reference two or three medical, you know, like actual pathologies that would look like that.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_02: And now everyone's dealing with it, like a lot of people are dealing with this.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_02: That these things look like something else, but they're not.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_02: They're actual like they're inflammation, they're reactions that are taking place.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_02: And and those questions, right?
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_02: Like a scientist can't answer that because that's we don't know.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_02: Like it's it depends on what did you put on your product on your face and how much of it and for how long.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_02: You know, these are the kind of questions.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_00: So it's and and you know, people and skin, the skin, everybody's skin is unique.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_00: And um, you know, there there may be somebody that reacts to aloe vera and and or you know, obviously a nut allergy, they might react to one of the almond, one of the nut oils.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_00: So you have to also be empowered, read your labels every single time.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and and you know, sometimes the most innocuous ingredients may not be great for certain people.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_00: But the other thing I'd like to to talk about too, you're just talking about the prevalence of redness and inflammation in the skin.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_00: That I'm seeing that so much at the moment, and particularly in Australia um and Melbourne, we had one of the great biggest lockdowns in the world and a lot of mask wearing for a long, long time in Melbourne.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_00: And we had people with with serious skin reactions, and it wasn't only mask wearing, um, but it was also the stress their bodies were under, uh, and and the cortisol levels was increasing the inflammation in their skin.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_00: And we were the you know, some of the biggest um selling products were the ones that were were calming the skin and reducing the inflammation.
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_00: So uh yeah, we've also got to realize that these times are quite stressful, our skin may change, and and we need to we need to kind of be agile with our skincare routines too, and say, okay, what is my skin going through at the moment?
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_00: Or what what may I be reacting to?
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_00: And choosing brands, I think, with a really clean profile, not necessarily natural, but clean and and minimally inflammatory, if you like.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I think that's you know, I the thing is that you know, inflammation has become an increasingly, you know, probably an increased problem, I think, in uh the general population.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_02: We've been all been inside, you know, COVID has impacted everyone's life, our whole routines, not just skincare, everything has changed, and especially for like skin that relies so heavily on you know sunlight and you know, going outside in a routine, right?
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_02: We have all have this routine that we had to give up.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_02: So it's led to so many things that have shifted, and so many things that have changed.
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_02: And now that summer months are coming up, you know.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_02: I really wanted to, I'm so glad we talked about the SPF, for example, because it's you know, people are gonna go outside, and I think what they're gonna start seeing is that their skin is reacting very different than it did like two summers ago.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_02: Why?
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_02: Because inside more, your whole body has gotten accustomed to a completely different routine.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_02: And so now the way that you're looking at sunscreen and the way you're looking at your summer products is gonna need to shift, and the only and the only way that's gonna shift is if we understand the science, right?
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_02: Of why it's happening and why we need to.
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_02: So it it's it's a very crucial time, I think, to really uh, you know, kind of direct people in the right direction.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_02: And and uh if I were to, I would say go try, you know, synergy scan because I know the science, you know, you're you're sitting on science.
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_02: That's my big thing with these brands is that if you have the science, I'll you know, I'll recommend you any day.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_02: But if you don't, then you can't expect to have a successful line because no one can argue with that, right?
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_02: Like if you can't validate it, you can't go against it.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_02: So um I just wanted to, yeah, I wanted to say that.
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_02: So everyone's mindful of what they're buying this summer.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_00: And look, you know, shameless plug, but my book, Skin Formation, which is a clean science guide to beautiful skin, I I published uh actually during COVID, um really breaks down the science.
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_00: And the book is completely brand agnostic.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_00: So you will not find my brand or any of my products mentioned once in my book, but it really breaks down the science.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_00: So if any of your listeners are interested in the science of skin, reading labels, really understanding what they're putting on their face, um, I do recommend you go out and buy my book, Skin Formation.
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_02: Actually, Terry, I would love for you to do do like an audio reading of it if you were open to that, like a like a way that for people to get a sample.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_02: If you, you know, I'm we can talk about this.
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, like I I feel like that's amazing.
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_02: And wow, I didn't know you wrote a book, like, you know, that was so it was non-branded, and that's amazing.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_02: I I'm definitely gonna check it out.
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_02: So I can't.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you, Ica.
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_00: Well, well, it was really important for me because when I I wrote this, I was wanting to write this book for years, and it actually took me nine months to write.
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_00: That's why I call it my third child.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_00: But um, I wanted it to be brand agnostic, and I'm actually I've, you know, there we've there are lots of competitors in our industry, and I'm I'm actually on really good terms with many of my competitors.
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and and they've actually used that book for their own clients because I don't mention synergy and they've said to me, Thank you, Terry, because we need something like that out there, and it's not pushing a particular skincare brand.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_00: So it's, you know, if you if you know, if you've got listeners out there, they love their brand, that's great.
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_00: You know, if get if you if you love it and it works for your skin and you know the science, but if you want to take that knowledge just to the next level, um, I would suggest uh checking out my book.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and absolutely, and I'll definitely be linking that in the you know, the art and the the uh you know the art around this episode on all of our social platforms.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I'm very much looking forward to reading that.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_02: I think there's definitely a a need to put more of this kind of non-branded content out there, just the science, just the explanations, because you know this is this is when people, I think when you have a need, that's when people learn the most.
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_02: So I would I would love to see a world where more people are scientists, right?
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_02: And then we're so I just want to thank you, Terry.
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_02: This has been so amazing, and you're just so I I love what you're doing.
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_02: I love how dedicated you are to the real core scientific principles.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_02: And I it means so much to me to be able to learn from someone like you to engage with another scientist like yourself because there's not a lot of us out there that you know that really can sit down and and uh geek out over this conversation.
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's been it's been a pleasure having someone to geek out with too.
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_00: I love it, absolutely love it, and thank you so much for giving me this this platform to talk about the importance of science in the in the beauty industry.
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely, it was such an honor.
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_02: Um, everyone listening, definitely go check out um Terry's book, and I will link everything about the brand in this episode.
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_02: But thank you again, Terry, and everyone else, I'll be back next time.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_02: Hey guys, so I hope you love that episode.
• 39:27
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• 39:32
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• 39:49
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• 40:10
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• 40:20
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• 40:27
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• 40:32
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