Latest / Identity at the Center / #281 - An Identity Conversation with Henrique Teixeira of Saviynt

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#281 - An Identity Conversation with Henrique Teixeira of Saviynt · Identity at the Center

0:00
So I I really liked work on the Magic Quad and for access
0:03
management I rode the IGA before he got retired.
0:06
Not my choice, but he got retired.
0:09
But the access management has to be my my proudest moment in
0:15
research. Perhaps the second one I wrote.
0:21
And remember what I said about the the the balance on on
0:25
entertainment with information, right?
0:27
So there's a interesting Easter egg in that Magic Quadrant if
0:31
you guys look it up. This is identity at the center.
0:41
If it has anything to do with IAM, this is the go to podcast
0:47
now your hosts Jim McDonald and Jeff Stedman.
0:57
Welcome to the Identity at the Center podcast.
0:59
I'm Jeff and that's Jim. Hey, Jim.
1:02
Hey, Jeff, how are you? Oh, not so bad yourself.
1:06
Good. I was just thinking back to
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something that was brought up yesterday.
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One of our all hands meetings where our leaders was talking
1:15
about, you know, how she had run into a situation where she went
1:19
into a store and showed the clerk, hey, I can get this for
1:23
$20 cheaper on Amazon. And the answer that she
1:27
essentially got was go order it on Amazon.
1:31
You know, it's like, right answer.
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Well, it's good. Yeah, it's honest advice, but
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it's not a good way to run the store.
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And it got me thinking about my last time going to the Atlanta
1:44
Hartsfield Airport to pick up Denise.
1:47
And the place smelled like a subway station.
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I mean, literally I've been going there to for years well
1:54
over five years in the because this is my local airport now and
1:59
it's it's gotten worse and worse and now it smells like a subway
2:03
station in New York City. In other words, it smells like
2:06
like an open bathroom. Horrible and and all you can do
2:10
is say it's poorly managed, right?
2:13
The person who's running that place should realize such things
2:17
and make sure that it's run better.
2:20
So. That's my my general gripe for
2:22
the morning. You know, I'm really happy.
2:25
You're a lucky guy, but I want you know, I always try to start
2:28
the show with something. And I don't understand your high
2:30
standards of an airport not smelling like a bathroom.
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I mean, you must be. Really.
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Highfalutin. And you know, very, very hoity,
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toity. I've just been traveling a lot,
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you know, been a road warrior for 25 years, not so much over
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the last five years like many of us.
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And it man, air travel has gone downhill significantly in that
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time. It's not, it's not fun anymore.
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And so I don't know if it's me that like, I just don't like
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going through the airport hubbub, but I think it's that
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the quality of air travel, the airport experience, the airplane
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experience, they've all gone downhill significantly.
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Yeah, it's the, it's the new bus.
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I think it's gotten so affordable that everyone's doing
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it and it's raced to the bottom for a little cost carriers and
3:18
seats and you know, I fly Delta pretty much exclusively at this
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point. And for as much as they think
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that they're a premium airline, they're not.
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I mean, they're. They're used to old.
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They maybe, but not not in the three years that I've been
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flying with them. Definitely not.
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They're no better. Worse.
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Than anyone else. No, they've got a lot worse than
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what they were. We're not going.
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To dump on Delta for 45 minutes. But way to start us off with a
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real with a real upper of. Yeah, smelly, smelly airports.
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So thanks for that, Jim. You're we're off to a good
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start. All right.
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Why don't we talk about identivers?
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Because that's going to be fun and hopefully doesn't smell like
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an airport. In fact, it'll be at the Ari
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Resort and Casino which never smells like airport.
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I don't even smell the smoke really, in there, which is
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great. I'm not a smoker.
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So you know, clean air, let's hope for that.
4:10
And that's May 28th to the 31st. We've got a discount code.
4:14
You get 25% off, it's IDV 2, four dash, IDAC 25.
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We'll have a link in our show notes because I know that's
4:21
really easy to remember. We're way past, I think, you
4:24
know, early early bird discounts were only a couple weeks away,
4:26
but hey, if you're a last minute.
4:28
By the time this drops, it's one week away.
4:30
It's exactly one week, so the drop date.
4:33
You got, you know, a week, the, the, the, the discount code
4:36
still works, so feel free to use it.
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And Jim, you and I will be there.
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We'll be doing a bunch of podcast stuff.
4:41
I'm hosting a panel on Cape Continuous Access evaluation
4:46
profile. So you know, we'll we'll find
4:49
out more about that. We'll be doing podcast episodes
4:51
and just kind of, you know, gallivanting men around town.
4:55
How does that sound? Sounds good.
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We've got a discount code for Identity week, Europe, America
5:00
and Asia. They This discount code works
5:03
for all three of those different conferences.
5:06
It's IDAC 30 that gets you 30% off.
5:11
Yeah. And we'll be at the one in
5:13
Washington, DC September 11th and 12th.
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So come out and see us there. And yeah, so support for that
5:18
show show, support for the show, easy for me to say.
5:21
So again, links will be in our shout out, so you don't have to
5:22
remember those. Just check the little thing
5:25
below if you're watching this on YouTube or check, you know the
5:28
notes in in your app. I don't want to like delay this
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because I feel like this is a conversation that we've been
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waiting for for a long time. The shackles are off.
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Freedom is is being embraced. So on a welcome to the show,
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Henrique Teixeira. He's the senior vice president
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of Strategy at Saviant. Welcome, finally, to the show,
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Henrique. Finally, finally, guys, thank
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you so much for having me. I'm super excited to be here.
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Super happy. As I said, shackles, Roth and
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and Jim. I'm at this hotel here.
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I'm at RSA and it it it smells good.
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Have you run into any bad smells so far?
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Here in the room is OK, OK. We're limited to that for now.
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So, Henrique, we, we've had some conversations in the past.
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You're at RSA, We'll talk about that in a second.
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But I guess technically this is your first time appearing on the
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podcast. We did a thing at Gartner.
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I guess it was early last year. Now at this point, 2023, we did
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like a live kind of session with you and Becky on stage, but if
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you weren't there, you kind of missed it.
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So let's start from the beginning with you, Henrique,
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how did you get into identity? Is it something that you chose
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or did it choose you? It chose me definitely.
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So it was in the late 90s when I started and I I end up with a
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company called BMC Software. If you guys remember BMC right
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before they acquired Remedy and I didn't know anything like
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that. I didn't know existed something
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like consulting. So I when I when I left
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university I had this opportunity to to work with a
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services integrator for BMC and I was deploying Control SA.
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Control SA was one of those user provisioning tools way back when
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there was a couple vendors doing what they do and and that's how
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I got in. I was implementing user
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provisioning for a while and funny story is when BMC decided
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to move away from Identity, they spun off that part of the
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business which later became assets of sale point later on.
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But that was my first job and then was a sequence of other
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identity roles in different companies.
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Computer Associates was next, then IBM and of course I'm
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Brazilian. That was all in Brazil.
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After Computer Associates IBM joined Oracle.
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That was my last job in Brazil. Before moving to Canada and
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Oracle I was in charge of the sales of all identity products
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for the Brazilian territory. But yeah I know the the
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profession chose me and I to be very honest I I thought that
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times hey maybe I I should like diversify and and try something
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different and and every time I say hey maybe identity is is is
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done for now and and it's not going anywhere but then
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something new came up right and then and then if you remember at
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one point especially when I was at CAA and they bought an
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integrity and they were the web access management phase of the
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market. It's OK this is kind of
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interesting. And then it died died down a
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little bit then came Octa with with SAML and a whole new way of
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doing single sign on and it was exciting again.
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So all this roller coaster and and which really really excites
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me right so we we never know what's coming next but
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ironically and I end up a garner.
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So this this was after I moved to Canada now all that but to
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your question no definitely the the profession chose me more
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than I I choosing knowingly where this was.
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I was learning as he went and I man I I I really got enumerated
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with this subject. So you mentioned Gartner.
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We're definitely going to get into that.
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But you also mentioned RSA. I guess this is.
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Is this your first time at RSA? And if so, like, what's your
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impression of RSA as a whole? As a first timer?
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It is a first time for me, yes, first time I'm here.
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I'm I'm quite impressed. I I think I knew what to expect.
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I I heard there was ups and downs different ears different
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vibes. I I think I heard people telling
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me wow it feels like pre pandemic and that's that's the
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vibe people that come here many many years they're telling me
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it's it's it's bustling again and and and people seem to be
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excited to be here. I I I love San Francisco as a
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city right And and I I it's a beautiful city and I've been
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here for other events but yeah this first time here at RSA one
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thing I which struck me is that of course I ran conferences for
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Gartner and all the Expo the show floor it's very
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standardized right so it's all uniform and I hear here at RSA
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you see all kinds of shapes and forms of booths and and and
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marketing and colors and that's kind of refreshing.
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I like it. Yeah, that's what I kind of
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wanted to ask you about, Enrique with your time at Gartner.
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You know, in my head it's Enrique who runs the the IM
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Summit and I think back to how you made that first move to
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bring it into Grapevine, TX. But I even wanted to start
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before that, which is how did you get that job of running the
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conference? It's a it's a funny story, Jim.
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So at at that time I was a senior director at Garner.
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I I had my fair share of accomplishments, if you will.
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I have offered a couple magic quadrants by then and there was
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a previous guest on this podcast.
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You guys may know him, David Mahdi.
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So David and I were very close friends and I I look up at him,
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say whatever David was doing, say, hey, I I want to be more
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like Dave in that sense. I total totally respect that
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guy. Anyway, I was on vacation in
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Mexico in my family, and I get a text from my boss and I was at
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the pool and the text says Enrique, We got to talk.
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That was it. Yeah, it's.
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Usually not good. This is not good.
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That's that's that's the vibe I was going for right.
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And I told my wife this is weird.
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I think I lost my job and I just didn't know what to think and
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and I tried to call Ray Wagner. Right.
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He's my he was my manager Gardner at that time and no
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answer on the the time zone differences and etcetera.
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So I I went to sleep and I I couldn't sleep.
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It was am I fired? Am I what?
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What's going on? Right.
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And I wake up the next morning and and finally he's like yeah,
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are you are you free now? I say yes I'm free now and and
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and I call him and what Ray tells me he say hey Enrique
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David Maudie just laugh Garner and I'm calling you because I
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want to know do you accept to be the next chair of the IM Summit.
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I say man don't do that don't do that to me so so that's how I I
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was offered the job and and and it says that's of course I was
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doing other things in the background and and and producing
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my research and I think I was next in line but I never knew it
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was out of the blue and Noah was so happy but at the same time
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angry at Ray. Well we we love Dave and Muddy
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on the show, we've had him on at least once and he's over
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transmitted security now and I look up to him as a as a
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bodybuilder weightlifter as well because the the guy's pretty
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jacked in addition to everything.
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But so now, you know, going back to the story, so now you got
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this new role to be the chair of the IM Summit, and you don't
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know what you're doing, right? I mean, you've never done it
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before. At least we can say that much.
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So what was that like? Do you mean what was like
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leaving Gardner to join saving, or about the role itself?
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No, I'm talking about running, running your first IAM summit,
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But you changed locations. You didn't just, you know,
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follow the template that was laid out the previous time,
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right? You world.
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Class Podcast to it. Yeah, yeah.
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You invited us and included us. That was pretty brash.
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Very much Jim and and you know me, I like to think of myself as
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a little bit of a mover and a shaker type of thing and say hey
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we we need to snazzy this thing up right and make it more
15:08
appealing and and especially if you guys remember right this was
15:11
after COVID right after this. So it was the 1st in person
15:16
event a Garner that we had. OK so we we do not know how what
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to expect. It was not only me and Neil on
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the job but also we're we're coming back in person so it was
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a new thing for attendees as well right.
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So it it was very weird I think Garner was amazing that regard
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and and and Ray came to me see. Hey Enrique, even if nobody
15:44
shows up, even if this event sucks you, you are on the clear.
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And I said no, man, what you're talking about, it has to be a
15:53
success. We got to make it work and it
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will be a success. I have a reputation I want to
15:58
keep. I cannot embarrass Gartner right
16:01
in our audience and our clients. So no, it will be a success.
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So we thought of of of ways or I thought of ways that OK, we we
16:12
got to change up a little bit, #1 if you guys remember, before
16:17
the pandemic Garner conferences, all the breakout sessions, they
16:21
had a duration of 45 minutes and during virtual sessions we
16:26
shortened that to 30 minutes. When we came back in person, it
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stayed as a 30 minute session. It was a big change.
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If you think about the way we're producing content tell a story
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in 45 minutes, it is easier then telling the same story in a in a
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very efficient way in 30 minutes.
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So that's just an example of the whole mechanics changed for that
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and but there was this on the other hand a very accepting and
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and with which lifted weight off my shoulders and say hey Enrique
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even if this goes S you were good but I think that gave me
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more freedom to try weird stuff and and and new and and
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interesting things So in in a sense I was very excited I I and
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I loved it the first time I did it.
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So even though Jim I've never done that before say wow I want
17:24
to do more with conferences at Garner and and by the time I
17:29
laughed Garner that was one of my favorite things it was to be
17:33
on stage and and to help other people to succeed as a speaker
17:38
to be proficient as a speaker. So it is funny, right?
17:42
So even things that you never done in your life, but if if
17:46
opportunity presents yourself and and if you never try it, you
17:50
never know if you're going to like it or not.
17:53
That's right. That's right.
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That's great advice. I also say I had a great time at
17:57
the event. The venue was awesome, Didn't
18:01
smell. You know, Jeff and I held a
18:04
community outing one night. We did Axe Throwing.
18:09
It was sponsored by Octa and ONE Cosmos and RSM and we basically
18:14
were able to bring out some of our listeners to come do axe
18:17
throwing at no cost. So that was a fantastic time.
18:20
Now I had a learning come from that which was you know we did
18:24
that at an off site place that did axe throwing for us and we
18:28
didn't provide transportation and I think that was a big mess
18:31
because people had to get themselves there so they had to
18:34
go and get an Uber. Oh that'll be all right.
18:36
People will do that and I think that hurt our attendance.
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What what learnings did you have coming away from organizing
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conference. In other words, if the the
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person who now got that phone call like Enrique's left and now
18:51
I want you to run the eyes on what's the what is the lessons
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learned that you would pass on to them?
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Oh, so many. But let me try and distill to
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something that's more actionable and and memorable.
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So, so two things. And and and you brought up a
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good point so that the and and when you say the venue didn't
19:10
smell, we had two venues, right. So the first one was in Vegas
19:14
and then to my surprise the next event was only seven months away
19:20
from the first one. So remember so there was a
19:23
double challenge. The first event being in Vegas
19:27
after the pandemic, the 2nd event we move it to Texas seven
19:32
months after the first one. So again where I say hey you
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only have a seven months, it's OK if the rooms are empty and
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and man I was sweating bullets I was having nightmares and real
19:47
real nightmares that I was walking to rooms and and going
19:50
on on stage and and the seats were empty.
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So I so this is the device and I say, hey, yes, we need killer
20:00
content. Yes, we need to be talking all
20:03
about the good and and actionable things and identity,
20:08
but we need those rooms for OK, we need to to balance the
20:14
entertainment aspect as well as the content.
20:17
Right. I don't want to be a say, hey,
20:19
I'm going to go to Garner. But yeah, it was boring.
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I think people remember what they feel in those events.
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So I said hey and I was lucky that my manager thought the same
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way. So yes, we got to balance out
20:30
entertainment with this. So the for the 2nd event say
20:35
we're we're we're we have this very short window.
20:38
I need big, big tickets, names that could attract people that
20:43
could be interesting. So I had the idea of bringing
20:46
you guys, so you came to on the second one, right?
20:48
So it was a Texas one and say, hey, we want those guys in.
20:52
But is this really a case study? Because that's this lot.
20:56
Garner had this very formulaic approach.
20:58
OK, is it a case study? Is it a Garner speakers?
21:03
And no this is a podcast and it took a while for Garner to
21:08
understand was that this is an example of the hey try something
21:10
different we we took a chance with you guys but I I knew it
21:14
was going to work. I I, I I was certain for example
21:19
and so this was one the other the other thing I, I I came up
21:23
with this idea was to bring CE OS on stage.
21:26
So originally I had invited Todd McKeon and from Octa Mark McLean
21:32
from sale point and Andre to run from from bank and eventually
21:37
Todd had that conflict in his agenda and we we brought those
21:41
guys. So Andre and Mark on stage that
21:43
was the first I think in in in for IAM other data analytics and
21:49
other summits, they had that before.
21:50
So I had some some sort of prior things similar to that, but it
21:57
took me over six months just to convince Garner processes, hey
22:02
we're going to do this. So I had to come up with a very
22:04
specific inclusion criteria why those guys are there or not.
22:08
So I was mostly focusing on the professional and personal
22:14
journey. They went from an employee in
22:17
the company. So they they both quit their
22:19
jobs to to be a founder of a company and the CEO.
22:24
So you got to be the founder and the CEO and if I was still a
22:28
garner, I would continue with that idea that was such a great
22:32
turn out and and and feedback that I heard.
22:35
My next idea would be to bring women, women leaders in identity
22:42
and and and and bring them on stage.
22:44
So those are examples of taking those calculated risks, right,
22:49
just like inviting Jim and Jeff on stage.
22:52
So how is that going to be? I think they're very interesting
22:57
ways of calculate the risk. Take your chances and and always
23:01
try to balance that that entertainment with content.
23:06
You got to make your audience understand they're having a good
23:11
time and they will remember to have a good time.
23:14
They may not remember what they heard.
23:15
It was a centralized identity. Was it Kim?
23:18
My TDR, they're going to remember they had a good time.
23:20
So I think that's if that's one advice I'll give to it.
23:23
Who is getting into this business or into this conference
23:27
industry is hey, think about your audience having a good
23:30
time. That's a really cool story.
23:33
So the analogy that I came up with as you're telling the story
23:36
was like they took Steve Jobs and dropped him in at IBM and he
23:40
said think differently. And the audience said, why do we
23:46
need to think differently? We've got a framework that
23:49
works. We're thought leaders and and
23:52
Gartner analysts are thought leaders.
23:54
A lot of people stop there with Gartner to tell us how we should
24:00
think about this problem. What's the future?
24:02
OK, you're a thought leader. You're up on that stage and it
24:06
goes back to, OK, we talked a lot about your role as the
24:09
conference organizer. That was just more, I think,
24:14
what happened latest right before that or probably even
24:18
really during that. You're an analyst.
24:20
First, talk to us about what the typical day of an analyst's life
24:25
is like. Yeah, there's the external stuff
24:29
which is very easy for people to see.
24:31
So every time you are at a Garner conference, so you are on
24:35
stage representing this, right. So the analyst is typically
24:39
doing three things, every analyst it's a very similar role
24:44
when you're you are at Garner. So one is writing research,
24:48
right? And when we write that research,
24:49
the second thing you do is prepare.
24:52
You select the cherry pick the coolest research and that turn
24:56
into presentations that you deliver in those conferences,
25:00
right. So it's to promote that in a way
25:03
that is packaged in a in a breakout session.
25:06
The third thing we do, and that's not very visible to a lot
25:10
of people, I did not know that before joining.
25:12
Joining Gardner and taking the job was inquiries and and that
25:16
was a big chunk of my day, 4 hours a day, every day I was
25:21
talking to IAM leaders and Csos, so writing research, presenting
25:28
that research on stage, but also this increase.
25:32
So it would be like 5-6 Csos a day telling me Enrique, I have
25:38
this issue with machine identities.
25:41
I have this issue with user provisioning and onboarding or I
25:45
said so who should I buy, Okta or or Microsoft?
25:49
So it was a very important piece of the job not only to to help
25:57
those companies, which is a very interesting thing that you learn
26:01
how to do in a very short time frame.
26:03
So every inquiry like that is a 30 minute conversation, not too
26:07
different the one that we're having here.
26:08
So it's about listening a problem and provide them.
26:13
You can say, hey, let's have a a week assessment and I'll turn
26:17
you with a response. No, an inquiry is like I
26:20
understand your issue in a very short time frame and I can give
26:26
you 1 two things that you can go and do in a very actionable way
26:31
in that 30 minutes. So you become very compact and
26:37
and efficient with your words. And I I was a guy that I always
26:41
enjoyed to talk and perhaps I I I say, hey, am I speaking too
26:46
much And I have to pace myself and and and pay attention to
26:49
that and and that translated how I communicated with my clients
26:53
but also even my family, my kids and my wife.
26:58
So that research that you did, you did you I guess kind of
27:03
invented things like Kim and ITDR when it comes to things
27:08
like that. So Kim, cloud infrastructure,
27:10
entitlement management, ITDR, identity, threat detection,
27:14
Response, what are some of the like, are those the things that
27:18
you hang your hand on, say like I did this, like you printed out
27:22
that research and put it on your refrigerator at home?
27:24
Like, what are some of the other things that you feel like most
27:26
proud of having worked at Gartner and some of the research
27:29
you've produced? Yeah.
27:32
And creating markets or creating segments or acronyms, it's.
27:38
And it is a funny thing. A garner.
27:42
My my manager once said, hey Enrique, there are analysts a
27:46
garner that they have a whole career Garner and they never
27:51
created an acronym or analysts that never authored a Magic
27:55
quadrant. It's not a mandatory thing.
27:58
It's not a requirement for analysts to be creating
28:01
acronyms, even though the market.
28:03
Yeah, Gardner, they they they they have the bonuses attached
28:06
and how many acronyms they create.
28:08
No, there's no such thing. So I want to debunk that myth
28:10
right now but so yes, there's a there's not a pressure for
28:15
analysts to be creating those type of stuff.
28:17
But man it was such a funny thing.
28:20
I was I was watching this market and a bunch of startups coming
28:26
out of stealth and create this thing and say hey this is
28:28
different and when I was looking I was just observing this like
28:31
in a in a lab you see like a Petri dish and say hey these
28:34
things is growing and what do I call this.
28:39
And I I don't know if you guys remember and I I create a few
28:43
posts about this I I first said well this sounds like a cloud
28:49
access governance of entitlements so so I OK let's
28:54
call this cage and we we use Nicolas Cage's face as the icon
28:59
for this. So this is going to be cage and
29:01
we caged entitlements in it and it didn't get accepted but I
29:06
think the 2nd that's a real missed.
29:07
Opportunity, Henrique, I would have been in on that.
29:09
Right. They they slept on that one that
29:13
was right there for the taking, I mean.
29:16
Nicolas Cage licenses all the time, right?
29:18
He he totally would have probably like said, yeah, throw
29:20
me a few bucks and you can use my face on it.
29:23
His career will go over the roof right and and same with I said
29:29
you are and say hey there's this whole new thing of of companies
29:32
and and so this kind of observational type of thing was
29:37
something hey I was just I'm just writing about things that I
29:40
see and is it real, is it not is it Well I can see in front of me
29:45
it's happening here. It doesn't matter much what we
29:48
call it but that was pretty cool I think yeah it gives me pride.
29:53
I think it's always going to be there So it's part of history
29:55
now right that this this thing's got created.
29:57
I TDR and and Kim. So I feel very proud about this
30:02
especially because he helped helped people in two ways.
30:06
Number one they startups and I'm.
30:09
I'm. I'm.
30:10
So how can I say what's the English word.
30:14
And you guys know I'm English not my first language but I I I
30:18
admire those guys the courage of just hey I'm going to be
30:21
launching this company out of nowhere or I I we don't have
30:24
funding you know and raise raise a round of funding and so #1
30:31
having this type of hey now you have this acronym and you can
30:37
attach it to it you put a label on what you do they can explain
30:41
that to leaders. Hey I solved this type of
30:43
problem. I am I'm doing ITDR and I'm
30:46
doing Kim. I think helps them but also he
30:49
helps the buyers. Right.
30:51
So if I'm an I am leaders yeah I don't want to get breached and I
30:55
I'm doing a good job here with IMMFA and IGA all the plumbing
31:00
is done but I'm still getting attacked.
31:03
OK. There's this ITDR thing so I'll
31:05
look in companies in that space. So I think it helps to shorten
31:11
that that conversation time frame and and helping from those
31:16
two sides. But yes to the refrigerator
31:18
question you asked you found the my most proud moment.
31:24
I think the biggest read research I ever published was
31:29
the Magic Quadrant hands down and I'm I'm, I'm super proud.
31:33
And it's a it's a funny comment about this Jeff is that many,
31:38
many times like people told me you don't have to write an MQ to
31:44
be a good analyst. It's it's not a mandatory thing
31:47
or even people saying hey it's a nightmare to write an MQ.
31:51
You're going to get escalations you're going to get you're going
31:54
to piss people off and so you know what No this is this sounds
32:00
very cool. I want to do that this this
32:02
sounds a very powerful research that can drive markets.
32:09
We can really help leaders to make informed decisions And so
32:17
back to that the thing on on on the conferences too.
32:19
So you'd never know if you're going to like if you don't try
32:22
it. But I I had a strong feeling I
32:24
would like it. So I I really liked work on the
32:27
Magic quad and for access management I rode the IGA before
32:30
he got retired. Not my choice, but he got
32:33
retired. But the access management has to
32:37
be my my proudest moment in research.
32:42
Perhaps the second one I wrote. And remember what I said about
32:48
the the, the balance on on entertainment with information,
32:52
right? So there's a interesting Easter
32:54
egg in that Magic Quadrant if you guys look it up.
32:59
So there's a section that people don't read that often because
33:02
everybody looks at that chart, right.
33:05
We see the actual quadrant and the dots in the quadrant, But
33:09
way down there's the context section and we talk about where
33:13
the markets going, what's influencing those shifts in the
33:16
market and direction. So there there's sections and
33:21
I'm going to tell here and you can look it up later if you have
33:24
a Garner subscription or not or reprints out there in the
33:27
Internet. But this each title of that
33:31
contact section of the Magic Quadrant that year.
33:34
It is a Star Wars reference. So there is a yeah the the rise
33:41
of the developer and and and and so on.
33:43
It's. A and prize to anybody, anybody
33:46
who who finds it and next time they see Jeff or I and and can
33:51
identify it, we've got to identify the center sticker as a
33:55
prize. Henrique, I wanted to I wanted
33:58
to ask you a follow up question on ITDR if I could.
34:02
So I was listening to another podcast by the Cooper here call
34:06
folks Mike Neuschwander. I think I'm getting that right
34:10
wrote a a guidance paper on ITDR and he made the statement during
34:17
this podcast that ITDR is a use case not a product.
34:22
And I think you know further explanation was look all these
34:26
ITD, all these platforms or systems that fall into the ITDR
34:32
bucket, they have some number of features that kind of fall into
34:40
this grouping of ITDR. So in my opinion now we're
34:43
talking Jim McDonald's idea. I think of ITDR, the most
34:47
important part as essentially almost like watching from AUBA
34:52
standpoint looking for unusual activity that fits a pattern of
34:58
potential breach in action and then being able to respond by
35:02
taking some action to to stop the breach in its tracks.
35:06
But it sounds like also within this ITER space is an analysis
35:10
of your configurations within certain identity systems to say
35:16
oh, if you keep that configuration you know that's a
35:19
that's a bad configuration etcetera etcetera.
35:22
Another one that was talked about during the podcast, I
35:25
think he was referring to a a system called Sempress, which is
35:31
that there are some tools for restoring your Active Directory.
35:36
In this case, if you know if a breach does take place and is
35:41
successful. So it's like some have some
35:44
components, some have other components.
35:46
And I kind of feel like where we're at with ITER is we're
35:50
going to see 3-4 years down the road, who knows if it will still
35:54
be called ITGRI think it's a genius acronym for it.
35:58
But you know, all these things are going to have to flush out
36:03
and like you know, it's going to have to focus on something, some
36:07
set of use cases that every platform supports and everything
36:12
extraneous to that will either fall by the wayside or fit into
36:16
some other category. What are your thoughts?
36:19
Yeah and and funny story because of RSA and and everybody's here.
36:24
I met Mike the other day and we had lunch together so how how
36:28
fun is that? A a almost like a former Garner
36:31
analyst with Cuppinger Cohen and all that stuff.
36:33
So so super cool and I I agree we were very adamant to explain
36:40
that ITDR is not a market a Garner.
36:44
We called it as a discipline. It is a discipline because it
36:50
encompasses tools of markets that already exist.
36:54
So think about it, right? So it could be part of XDR.
36:58
It could be part of an IAM tool that brings XDR capabilities.
37:03
It could be an intrusion detection system.
37:07
It could be a a honeypot deception technique type of tool
37:14
like elusive and which is not proof point, right.
37:17
So. So those markets already exist.
37:21
Yes you may find perhaps a vendor and others AI only do I
37:25
TDR and I don't I don't fit as an endpoint security tool I
37:29
don't fit as an I am tool it's it's something yeah there are
37:34
there are a couple of those I can think perhaps super Fort
37:38
fits in in in that area of of what Automize was starting to do
37:45
after Kim right they started Kim and they they add more ITVR
37:48
pieces in there. So but for the most part what
37:52
ITVR included is a knowledge base best practices tools.
37:57
So that's why we we package that as a discipline and and every
38:01
time I was talking about ITVR presentations we we called it a
38:05
discipline we say hey it's not a market but that's a very good
38:10
question because I we we we used to get at a lot of garners.
38:12
Hey when are you launching in MQ and Magic Quadrant for for ITDRS
38:17
well it's not a market so until this becomes it has to exist as
38:22
a market to become a Magic Quadrant.
38:24
So so that's why we wrote other best practices type of documents
38:28
but not MQS about it. So it wouldn't be an identity on
38:33
our podcasts if we didn't ask about AI.
38:36
Feel it's obviously having its moment right now.
38:39
We're all you know speculating at this point.
38:41
I don't think anybody has answers, but I think we have
38:43
lots of ideas on where we see AI impacting identity on, on any
38:49
number of fronts. I'm curious, where do you see AI
38:53
hitting the A the IAM world? I think #1 recommendation
38:59
engines and copilots. I think that's one of the I I
39:05
can see here at RSA, but I was already starting to see this
39:09
beginning of this year, a lot of pilots and a lot of demos around
39:16
copilot ideas assistants, right? Especially for IGAI think it's
39:21
one of those more applicable areas where AI can can be used
39:25
to augment humans in in decision making and not only in Gen.
39:30
AI, OK, I'm talking about perhaps all kinds of different
39:33
type of AIS for action for the traditional analytics or what we
39:40
call advanced analytics which is predictive and prescriptive.
39:43
So become more prescriptive in the type of analytics that we
39:47
do. I think those are more tangible
39:51
ways of using AI for security or AI in IAM.
39:56
So closer to, hey, you should be running a certification campaign
39:59
right now because I, I, I did run if your group analysis here
40:03
analytics is telling me there's an over accumulation of
40:06
privileges in in 10% of your users, right.
40:09
So things like that could AI could be very helpful, but this
40:13
is analytics that already existed.
40:15
It's almost like now we have applied analytics.
40:19
To solve specific problems versus the idea in the past that
40:24
we have analytics and identity, yeah, we're generating this data
40:28
warehouse and you can do anything with it, right?
40:32
The knowledge I use, Yeah, you can take that block of wood and
40:36
a Swiss Army knife and carve out the guitar.
40:39
Yeah, you could. But should you do that?
40:42
No, maybe not. So I think that's where we're
40:46
starting and and Jeff, I agree with you very much.
40:49
I I don't think if you ask somebody and they know exactly
40:53
how AI is going to be used, I'll call that bluff.
40:56
A, there's there's no way somebody could this this.
40:59
I know exactly that we're going to be using AI for this today
41:02
and I know exactly how it's going to be using next, but
41:05
there's definitely two sides to it.
41:07
So we're spoke first then this was the example I gave of using
41:11
AI for security. But there's also the the the
41:16
security for AI right. So we protecting organizations
41:20
against threats generated by AI. So I'm.
41:25
Going to put you on the spot here because I was at RSA a few
41:28
years ago and I was happy to come back to the podcast and
41:32
report that zero trust had been solved.
41:34
Because every single product that I saw as I walked through
41:37
both Thunder halls had some sort of 0 trusts.
41:41
You know, branding or solution or whatever.
41:44
I was like, all right, great, we've got that figured out.
41:46
As you walk through the vendor halls at RSA this year, give me
41:50
a a gut feeling. Where are we at with AI?
41:52
Are are most booths have something to do with AI?
41:56
Do they have, you know, things like that where they're kind of
41:59
promoting their AI capabilities? What's your gut feeling?
42:06
Everybody, I think it's almost like a mandatory for CMOS to put
42:10
that on booth, it's like this is crazy.
42:13
Well my booth that's Savient. We have AI in there we're we're
42:18
they're launching, we're launching this this new copilot
42:21
called Savvy or Savy and I think we're going to be calling Savvy,
42:26
savvy the copilot. Savvy sounds better.
42:27
I think, yeah, right. But yes, to your question, I, I,
42:33
I think it's it's it's becoming like what zero trust was
42:37
everywhere. Every booth, every vendor has
42:41
some different flavor of AI. And yeah and and I think as an
42:47
analyst, right, we start to observe those type of patterns
42:51
and say yeah, it's natural. It doesn't surprise me at all.
42:55
It doesn't make me angry. Or no, no, it's it's it's how
42:58
the market works. And then we've seen that before,
43:00
right? And so it's just this, this new
43:02
thing. Before AI, it was cloud.
43:05
I don't even count crypto. This is it.
43:08
This was a weird blip. But blockchain was big like five
43:11
years ago. Right.
43:13
And I think all those startups that used to do blockchain, OK,
43:17
now we got to do AI as well. But I I, I think it's very
43:21
predictable to make a pun here. This would eventually happen,
43:28
right? So it's same with cloud A.
43:30
This cloud revolution or zero trust revolution, the AI
43:36
revolution until the next revolution.
43:38
I can guarantee you it's going to be a new one after this.
43:43
You know, I'm just going to throw my comment out there and
43:46
feel free to argue with me. I and I think this I've pissed
43:51
people off with this comment before.
43:54
I think recommendation engine is not AII don't think it's very
43:59
valuable. I think it's very similar to the
44:02
concept of role mining and I've gone in with worked with a lot
44:06
of clients in the past where it's like hey let's do this role
44:10
mining exercise and it says 50% of the people in this group have
44:15
this combination of entitlements.
44:17
So just give it to 100%. It's like I don't know we're
44:20
smart we're not going to give it to 50% or if it's like 50 or
44:24
over 70%. So yeah we'll give it to those
44:27
other thirty that is in dead opposition to the principle of
44:32
least privilege dead opposition. So I am I've.
44:37
I think it can be an input but I don't think that's AII don't
44:41
think having an input of data now copilot now we're now you're
44:45
talking my language where I can use kind of human interaction
44:50
with my IGA system to mine data in a way that I couldn't before
44:56
because I couldn't develop. I couldn't even use maybe some
44:58
of the data analytics tools that were provided because I'm not a
45:02
techie or whatever but now I can start to drill in and whether
45:07
I'm a techie or not does isn't really actually the the point
45:09
it's how easy is it to use the system to mine that data to
45:15
extract the meaningful information that I need.
45:19
So when we're talking copilot yes you I'm sold we're talking
45:22
about recommendation engine. I do think a lot of vendors are
45:27
going to have recommendation engines because I think it's
45:30
it's something that has been around for years with role
45:33
mining and then it's just like, oh, let's just put a new user
45:36
interface on it or let's maybe take it to the next step.
45:39
I just don't find it that valuable.
45:42
And Jim, but what do you think is the difference between a
45:44
copilot and a recommendation engine is is what what is it in
45:48
your in your opinion? So in, in my opinion, from a
45:51
copilot standpoint, it would be like using an interface from a
45:55
ChatGPT or a Gemini or something like that where I say, oh, give
45:59
me the top 10, you know, meaningful identity and access
46:05
management metrics, OK. And it'll say 10.
46:08
And then you say, well, actually give me a, a sentence behind
46:11
each one. Now give me, I only want the top
46:16
five or something like that. Actually expand that out,
46:19
include this other point of view, things like that.
46:22
Now write me a report about those 10.
46:25
Now it's like I'm just interacting.
46:27
I'm just barking out commands to the system and it's taking the
46:30
data and it's using the generative chat feature to, you
46:36
know, create prose or create answers that are human readable
46:41
and probably better than I could write myself to take my identity
46:45
data and make sense of it. And you're absolutely right.
46:50
I I think there's a a we're conflating two things and and
46:55
when I say we as I'm I'm talking about our industry of copilots
46:59
and recommendation engines because you are right before
47:04
Gen. AI we had many IJ vendors that
47:07
that can do a risk score right. I say hey you should approve
47:11
this certification because the risk is low.
47:14
You should deny this request because the risk is high.
47:18
There is already very good analytics happening in there and
47:23
that's different from, OK, now let let me transform that graph
47:30
into natural language, all right?
47:34
And and make this accessible to other citizen developers.
47:39
Citizen employees are not even IT oriented people.
47:43
I think that's the power of it too, right.
47:45
So to make it more democratic, the democratization of identity,
47:49
if you will. So there's this angle as well
47:52
that we cannot hire fast enough skilled people in identity.
47:56
So when I think of copilots, it's it's yeah, it's all
47:59
maintaining the capacity of humans to make good decisions on
48:02
identity. And I'm I'm not talking about a
48:05
trainee new on the job. It could be a CSO, it could be a
48:09
CIOI say hey Can you imagine a CIO and I I've met those leaders
48:14
in a smaller organization, a mid sized organization.
48:17
Maybe the CIO is also the CSO and he's the I am all rolled
48:21
into one person they're not I am expert without, but can you
48:27
recommend me the five top things I need to do today.
48:30
So I agree very much Jim. So we could conflate those two
48:34
things. I think many companies are
48:35
conflating those things but there's a lot of potential there
48:39
and and not to advertise that that's where we see as as a
48:44
company is saving that's when and savvy that copilot that's
48:48
the direction we want to go to. Yeah.
48:50
You know, I think the the way I am is structured and has been
48:55
structured for a long time. There's the identity data,
49:00
access management data even, and then there's usually within
49:04
business applications or some set of entitlement management.
49:08
So it's very hard for me to go into my identity system and say
49:13
show me all of the permissions that allow somebody to enter an
49:18
order in my SAP system, right? Because the IM system doesn't
49:23
really know what are the permissions that let you enter
49:27
create an order. That would be revolutionary if I
49:31
could start to pull the the data and put it through an AI engine.
49:35
Now I say, what are all the roles and permissions that could
49:38
be assigned to somebody to allow them to enter?
49:41
Or can Henrique enter an order into my SAP system?
49:47
What else can Henrique do in my SAP system?
49:50
Wow, that's powerful. And that gets to the core dream
49:54
of what identity management should do.
49:56
I think so. I agree.
49:59
I know we're kind of beating a dead horse, but and and and I
50:02
don't think that all the technology's there, but I mean
50:05
that this. It's not.
50:06
It's not. Yeah.
50:09
So. We talk most of the time about
50:12
this role that you had at Gardner, which was a a
50:15
cornerstone and of your career. And I would say you reach the
50:19
top of the mountain in the identity space, right?
50:22
You became probably one of the most famous analysts at the most
50:27
famous analyst firm focused on identity.
50:31
What in the world made you give that up?
50:36
No I'm I'm I'm very humbled by by the compliment there Jim and
50:41
I thank you thank you man. I I cannot refute that statement
50:47
but man it was like you said hey I I was the chair of a summit
50:55
right the biggest summit and I am I was writing the M QS was
51:01
got the promotion to vice president that was super happy
51:05
with everything that we accomplished at Gartner and and
51:07
and and how many companies we we helped.
51:11
I think in summary it was this I was advising like I said in
51:16
those inquiries and presentations that that was I
51:18
was delivering. I think we were touching so many
51:21
people right and advising them in that short period of time.
51:25
But I said, how can it be that I'm still getting all those
51:30
calls from clients and they're trying to solve IGA problems
51:35
like user onboarding, like the basics of the plumbing of
51:40
identity management, right. Problems that we start on this
51:44
podcast here explaining back then back in the day, BMC
51:48
software sale point back in the day, we're talking about 25
51:53
years plus problem. So there's this guy, his name is
51:59
Yuri Levine. Yuri Levine.
52:01
If you guys know him, he is the founder of Waze, right?
52:05
And he said this thing you got to fall in love with a problem,
52:10
not with a product. So got to fall in love with the
52:13
problem, not the product. And I think that was reason
52:16
number one. I mean, not that I love IGAI,
52:20
love guitars, but this is a problem that chased me like the
52:25
question. The first question you guys
52:26
asked me, did you choose identity or did you choose, you
52:29
know it. It's been chasing me like this.
52:31
This problem is still persists, right?
52:33
I'm going to say 50% of IJ projects, they still fail.
52:37
So #1, that problem was chasing me for my entire career for the
52:41
last 25 years, right? So I I want to solve this, hey,
52:46
I think it's it's enough is enough, right?
52:48
We should be able to be doing this, this basic thing of the
52:51
plumbing of IGA and then of course tackle more sophisticated
52:56
things. But I think now technology is
52:59
ready and we have evolved in a way that, OK, now we can fix
53:02
this in a universal way. And I want to.
53:05
I want to grab this problem by the horn and solve it.
53:09
So that was the second thing. That's number one, the problem
53:11
is still big, huge for many, many leaders out there.
53:15
Number 2, the technology has evolved and when I was looking
53:18
at this market I could have a very detailed like a magnifying
53:22
lenses in this market to save it this, this is a company the
53:27
right size and the right speed of growth with the technology
53:31
that we evaluated as top of their class and and and clients
53:38
as well. Very delighted with the
53:39
experiences. You know what this is a, this is
53:41
a good thing especially if I could get into a, a position
53:46
where I help that company navigate this this very complex
53:51
market, right. So that reason number two,
53:54
reason #3, the people, right. The when, when and I know Sachin
54:00
from way back more than 20 years when he was at value.
54:04
Vaio was one of the very first axis dominance tools.
54:07
If you remember it was Vaio, there was a ricify there was a
54:10
VACSA right and and so he was already thinking about analytics
54:15
back then and we became friends toward toward this this this
54:20
whole journey and and when he came back to save it he raised
54:25
even more money. He's a very smart businessman,
54:28
but he's a very kind person. So aligned with the way I think
54:35
to be inclusive, to be diverse, right.
54:38
And and so values that were aligned where I think so.
54:42
So that was the third reason, the right people, the right
54:45
technology to solve the right problem.
54:47
So OK, I think it's time that I can take the next step in
54:50
helping this, this problem to be solved.
54:53
Yes, I did the advisory. I did this, this type of thing.
54:55
But now, OK, now I want to deliver the tools that can be
54:59
more actionable to really fix this once and for all.
55:03
So, so that that was the reason. And Jim and I, I never had this
55:08
type of leadership role in a company and setting the strategy
55:11
of a whole company. So like like chairing an event,
55:16
I never did that before. So I, I I really am looking
55:20
forward to what what I'm going to learn through all this
55:23
journey. I think I'm going to have a good
55:25
time. I think I'm going to have fun.
55:28
Worst case, I'm going to have this, this, this thing that I'll
55:31
learn. I'll have the ability to apply
55:33
this elsewhere. It's a great it's a great
55:36
perspective and again it's it kind of goes along with your
55:39
story of being willing to try something new and hopefully it
55:44
works out right. You're obviously an optimist and
55:47
yeah, fingers crossed is going to work out and I wish you the
55:51
best with it. I wanted to bring up one last
55:54
thing, which is, you know, Henrique, probably this this
55:58
episode will get extra downloads because you're you're so
56:02
influential, so well known. You've got over 10,000 followers
56:05
on LinkedIn. Yeah, I'm sure you're thanking
56:09
all of your followers, but can you impart some of that to us so
56:15
we know how to be more influential and to, you know,
56:20
kind of follow the a similar path to what you did?
56:24
Man I again I'm I'm very humbled thank you Jim and I I I it took
56:33
me a while to understand this whole social media thing and and
56:38
I'm a very self-conscious guy and I I was always very afraid
56:45
to to sound oh this is self promoting and and I created an A
56:50
decision tree in my mind about things that I would post So if
56:57
if I can perhaps articulate this a little bit better is am I
57:01
helping some somebody right so and you may have seen that I
57:06
really like posting job openings in I am because I I love helping
57:12
connect people like good professionals with good
57:16
companies Hey I'm hiring an I am leader I'm hiring an I am
57:19
engineer because I it feels good I I don't I don't know if it's
57:24
dopamine what it is it feels good Hey this guy got higher and
57:28
and and legit wishful idea of helping people so that is the
57:37
the thing that click OK I think I got it because to be self
57:42
promoting would be so cheesy and I don't like that I'm I'm
57:45
self-conscious and I see when that comes out it's not
57:49
authentic right so the moment I just said OK this is how social
57:54
media works it's got to be something which is useful to
57:58
somebody else So even if I'm posting something about the
58:02
event here I take a photo or a silly selfie which I'm trying to
58:06
hey by the way I'm going to have brunch with with David Mai after
58:10
this and we're going to have this selfie.
58:12
Together so people stay tuned but even when when it's that
58:16
type of silly type of thing well is it making somebody laugh Ryan
58:20
so I'm a big fan of memes and and and cats and this type of
58:25
thing in social media because either you got to make people
58:28
feel good or you are informing people about things.
58:32
Hey look look at this research it got published did you know XX
58:37
and X maybe think about this maybe you could improve your
58:40
life and what you're doing your job and if you can be funny and
58:44
informative at the same time. I think it doesn't happen all
58:47
the time and then things I post but but I think that's that's
58:53
the combination which makes that thing click and of course the
58:57
the following comes after that but I'm I'm very grateful that I
59:03
can connect with people and people can Enrique they they
59:07
they wave me on the hallways and and I was always humbled and a
59:13
little bit shy I'm I'm a shy guy It may not sound like it's all a
59:17
facade I'm I'm a very introvert very very much I'm an introvert
59:23
and what changed is it's it's a lot of self-awareness who am I
59:29
and and how grateful I am to be here.
59:32
I think that's great advice. I think that's something that we
59:34
strive for here on the podcast is this term edutainment where
59:38
it's educational but entertaining.
59:40
It's not boring. I mean, you know, Jim, you and
59:42
I, we don't want to do boring stuff, right?
59:44
It's like, OK, there's plenty of that out there.
59:46
How do we, how do we approach conversations and have fun with
59:49
it and show some personality? And, you know, are we perfect?
59:53
No. But I think that's probably what
59:54
you're going towards. Enrique is like, hey, you're
59:57
you're sharing things, right? You're putting yourself out
59:58
there and you're saying, hey, I think that somebody will find
1:00:01
this helpful and I think that's a great.
1:00:03
Way to look at it, don't I? I don't take myself that
1:00:06
seriously. Right.
1:00:07
So yeah, I'm just a guy. I'm, I'm an immigrant from
1:00:10
Brazil to Canada today. And I I speak funny and and hey,
1:00:16
exactly. You got to combine those things.
1:00:18
And yeah, we all. Put on our We all put on our
1:00:23
Golden Podcast pants one hook at a time, just like everybody
1:00:26
else. All right, we're running short
1:00:29
of time. RSA is actively in flight for
1:00:31
you. You're joining us all the way
1:00:32
from San Francisco, so we want to let you get on with your day.
1:00:36
But you mentioned earlier when we were before we hit the record
1:00:40
button, that you've started to have more skiing adventures and
1:00:42
I'm curious if you'll share with us a sort of the way to close
1:00:45
out today's episode is any memorable experiences from those
1:00:49
skiing adventures that you want to share with us?
1:00:52
Man, I'm I'm passionate about this.
1:00:56
Perhaps as a Brazilian skier what's what's the odds right.
1:01:00
But we we just had this fantastic trip that was my this
1:01:05
last trip before joining Sabian and and it was the first time
1:01:10
Jeff that the four of us. I have a 10 year old boy Lucas
1:01:14
and I have a six year old daughter Livia and and my wife
1:01:18
Flavia and and the four of us is skiing together in in the whole
1:01:23
mountain. Right.
1:01:24
So we could go everywhere and we are in the level that of
1:01:27
proficiency that we can ski together.
1:01:30
So that that was big but the the moment that really was a turning
1:01:34
point for me and and changed me as a father right was when was
1:01:39
just Lucas and I we're skiing together and and man he's
1:01:43
amazing. Both Lucas and Livia now they're
1:01:45
in the racing program of ski and I was skiing with him in Canada.
1:01:49
We were in Banff one of my favorite places in the world and
1:01:53
and was just he and I we're going down this hill and that
1:01:58
boy was so fast and I I was having to and he was nine at the
1:02:02
at the at the time nine years old and was chasing this guy
1:02:07
down the hill say man take it easy dad needs to catch up and
1:02:13
and and then I realized wow for the first time you see your
1:02:18
offspring he surpassed me. OK He's better He's a lot better
1:02:26
than I am at something so. So Jeff it was a mix of I was
1:02:32
proud angry at the same time. So it was a very interesting
1:02:38
combination of feelings. But of course I the the
1:02:40
happiness was bigger than whatever other negative thing I
1:02:44
said man look at this dude and and I was wow he's better than
1:02:50
so I I remember vividly when I realized that that this this
1:02:55
little kid we we raised this kid then OK now he surpassed me so I
1:03:00
was it got me thinking oh wow and and and that will happen for
1:03:03
everything, right. So when he becomes a better
1:03:06
professional than I am, I hope right and and and he will be I
1:03:09
I'm sure he will a better human, a better person.
1:03:13
He'll be surpassing me in all this type of things and my
1:03:16
daughter too will surpass me. And it's said wow, this was a a
1:03:21
life changing type of realization for me.
1:03:25
Jim, what about yourself? You've got kids.
1:03:27
I'm sure you can relate to your your kids being better than you
1:03:30
at something. My kids are better than made a
1:03:33
lot of things, but I'm just wondering, like, can we can
1:03:37
Henrique guide two children to be better than him, better human
1:03:42
being than him? And I think that's that.
1:03:45
That's that's something, OK? My skiing, skiing story is
1:03:51
nothing compared to Henrique's. I grew up in Pennsylvania, which
1:03:55
is the state in the United States where Pittsburgh and
1:03:58
Philadelphia are. So it's like moderate winters.
1:04:01
And what happens is it gets very cold and you'll get snow and
1:04:05
then it'll warm up and it'll start to melt, but then it'll
1:04:08
freeze again. So basically, skiing in the
1:04:10
Pennsylvania mountains is like skiing on ice ships.
1:04:14
So that's what I grew up doing from skiing.
1:04:16
It's very scary, very, very scary.
1:04:20
And so I'm not a very good skier.
1:04:24
I think it's pretty cool to do, but I also wanted to to Kia for
1:04:28
Henrique's point about Banff. I have been to Banff, not during
1:04:32
skiing season and man, it is one of the most beautiful places
1:04:35
I've ever been, right. That's in Alberta, Canada.
1:04:40
Yes, yes, there's another story in skiing and you guys feel free
1:04:44
to edit this and cut this out. But there was again, Lucas and I
1:04:48
I think it was the same trip, maybe another trip.
1:04:51
But they were together. I was chasing him, of course,
1:04:53
right? And he got me to enjoy moguls
1:04:57
and glades and trees So if if if you guys are not familiar with
1:05:00
skiing glades you skip in the middle of trees right.
1:05:05
And I never liked that like and and he gave me the confidence I
1:05:08
was following him and chasing him and super fun and I I that
1:05:14
now for me is one of my favorite type of skiing is through trees
1:05:17
and glades. But that was this time and I was
1:05:21
chasing Lucas and he making hard turns and I and I I took the
1:05:26
wrong footing on my skis on a a wrong turn.
1:05:30
So I had to make an A bill a second.
1:05:32
I had to make a choice. There was a tree in front of me,
1:05:35
so it's going to be either my knee or my nuts.
1:05:41
So I I had to make a very quick like AI type of decision.
1:05:47
I said OK, it's going to have to be the knees.
1:05:49
So I I talked with the knees and I hit the tree very hard.
1:05:54
I was like that in the ground like this.
1:05:57
Lucas stopped and he was very worthless.
1:06:01
Dad, are you OK? What happened?
1:06:04
Oh my God. I I made you come this way.
1:06:06
He was he felt so bad of the situation.
1:06:10
I was trying not to cry of of because I was in pain.
1:06:15
It's it's that is fine. That is fine.
1:06:19
And and then eventually I I shook it off and we went.
1:06:23
But I, I I was the cutest. And that's why I think this kid,
1:06:27
yeah, he he's going to be a better human than I am.
1:06:30
There's your entertainment, folks.
1:06:33
Yeah, no kidding. And that's why I don't ski.
1:06:35
I've never been skiing. I've never done anything on the
1:06:38
snow like that. I've shoveled it and I think
1:06:39
that's about as close to snow as I'm willing to get to at this
1:06:43
point. But I've never been skiing
1:06:45
between your knees and your. You chose correctly.
1:06:49
You know, I I think you know, most gentlemen out there
1:06:51
probably think the same. I know all.
1:06:54
Right. Let's go ahead and wrap it up
1:06:56
for this week. Henrique, thank you so much for
1:06:58
joining us. I hope you'll come back and join
1:07:01
us again in the future now that you're you've got the shackles
1:07:04
off and things like that and I'm sure we'll see each other.
1:07:07
Will you be at Identiverse in a couple weeks?
1:07:10
I will, Yes. OK.
1:07:12
So fist bumps of gratitude will be there and looking forward to
1:07:15
seeing you there. We'll go ahead and wrap it up.
1:07:17
You can follow us on the web. We're at idacpodcast.com, we're
1:07:21
on Twitter. X, whatever it's called when you
1:07:24
listen to this at IDAC podcast, we've started our YouTube
1:07:27
channel, started to put more content on there.
1:07:30
Videos like this, I hope will be a video episode.
1:07:32
We'll see. And let's see what else
1:07:35
Mastodon. Infosec.
1:07:36
I'm sorry, IDAC Podcast at infosec dot exchange.
1:07:40
Connect with all of us on LinkedIn.
1:07:41
We'll have links in our show notes for all of our discount
1:07:43
codes. And don't forget that to do that
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cool subscribe and like thing that helps us get great guests
1:07:49
like Henrique and you know keeps keeps us motivated, keep doing
1:07:52
the show. So with that we'll go ahead and
1:07:54
leave it. Thanks everyone for listening
1:07:56
and we'll talk with everyone in the next one.
1:08:01
You've been listening to Identity at the center.
1:08:04
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1:08:16
See you next time on Identity at the center.