Latest / The Curve / RTC99: Self-sabotage, people pleasing and setting boundaries with Dr Rebecca Ray.

Transcript

RTC99: Self-sabotage, people pleasing and setting boundaries with Dr Rebecca Ray. · The Curve

• 0:00
  Welcome to Raising the Curve, a podcast designed to teach you everything you need to know
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  to be better with your money.
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  And the wise words of Amy Schumer were slipping carrots into the brownie recipe.
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  I don't really get the saying.
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  It's kind of like eating vegetables that actually taste good, you know, I'm like,
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  I'm still not ready to eat.
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  Are you on the script?
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  It's basically like saying, investing in finance can be boring as, but it totally
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  doesn't need to be here.
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  Okay.
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  Okay.
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  So we're making it fun by putting the carrot, the vegetables are just good for you.
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  It's the brownie recipe.
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  Okay.
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  We got there.
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  We got there.
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  Okay.
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  Well, you've really got a finance mate.
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  Yeah.
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  One of us has to.
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  This is a show.
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  Okay.
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  Come and learn alongside me from Vic Harris, ex-fun manager where I'm going to ask all the
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  questions that you wish you could.
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  And I'm going to be eating all the brownie you wish you could.
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  No.
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  It's so not the joke, Vic.
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  Okay.
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  Just come and talk and learn and laugh with us because together we really can raise the
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  curve.
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  So Rebecca, how would you like to be referred to Dr. Rebecca Rae Beck, what are we going
• 1:05
  for?
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  Dr.
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  Rebecca Rae's super formal.
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  And that would make me feel like I was in trouble or like the expectations are really
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  high.
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  So let's lower the expectations and just call me back.
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  I love that.
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  Thank you so much.
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  Thank you in the pressure off.
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  Um, I think the reason that this particular conversation is quite close to my heart is because
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  boundaries and general is something that I struggle with massively, like not just on a personal
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  professional level, but obviously on a financial level too.
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  Yeah.
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  And I find with a lot of psychologists, there's not a huge amount of direction or like,
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  okay, go and do these steps.
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  This is going to help you to move through this.
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  And I, I love the work that you do in terms of like tangible steps for people and in the
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  financial space, like a lot of people might not have done much work with psychologists or
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  being to therapy or anything like that.
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  So I guess in today's conversation, I would love to talk about where you've been and your
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  career and where you are now because it's so, so impressive and fascinating.
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  But we really love to focus on how we can set and navigate difficult money conversations
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  with friends, family, our bosses.
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  I feel like this is going to be your area of expertise.
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  So that's what we would kind of love to get out of this into you today.
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  Absolutely.
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  To start off, I would love to hear about your story because your financial journey has been a
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  really interesting one.
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  You went from like quite a stable income, went through burnout.
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  Am I right in thinking your income's a bit more lumpy these days?
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  Yes.
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  That would be the word that my book, bookkeeping uses.
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  Absolutely.
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  Yeah.
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  Vex is too.
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  We just talk about our business income.
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  It's a bit lumpy.
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  Yeah.
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  We've got heaps.
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  Go spin many of them.
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  Oh, we can't pay ourselves.
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  We can't pay ourselves.
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  So we should probably start off with the fact that I was raised by parents who really value
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  independence and success.
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  And they measure success in money.
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  And they measure independence in money as well.
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  They're also incredibly hard workers and quite risk averse when it comes to finances unless
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  we're talking about property.
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  Property is their area of comfort.
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  But for my, I guess, upbringing, I watched them run their own businesses.
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  And for quite a long time, you know, we lived on the poverty line and they worked so incredibly hard until
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  finally their business made it and they're very comfortable today.
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  Now, what that did was it meant that I grew up watching people run their own businesses.
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  I started studying psychology straight out of school and thought that that would not only satisfy my curiosity
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  for why humans do what they do, but also I looked very clearly at that thinking it would be a stable profession
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  and give me an income that would support the lifestyle that I desired.
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  I'm not sure how my parents would have felt if I had said to them, I want to go and do face painting for a living.
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  Because they always had this idea that we needed to look after ourselves financially.
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  Not that they wouldn't help, but just more that you need to set yourself up for the future.
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  Yeah, so I returned to psychology and finished my doctorate and I started my own private practice and was very financially comfortable quite quickly in terms of my income.
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  So that meant that I got to pay off quite a lot of debt in a short period of time.
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  But I kind of, from a boundary perspective, I kind of got to the point where I didn't want to let my referers down.
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  So I had a really loyal set of doctors that would refer to me.
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  And I also didn't want to let my patients down.
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  So I just didn't say no.
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  I didn't say no often enough and I didn't say no earlier enough.
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  And so I ended up in a position where I got into my early 30s and I'd spent the vast majority of my adult life kind of single.
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  So all I had to manage was myself and my dog and my dog came to work with me.
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  So I literally worked and then went home and the rest of the time I was just like chilling out.
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  And then I started a relationship with my wife and I realized that it kind of wasn't normal to go home at the end of the day and not want to talk to your partner.
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  And I would say like I've got nothing left, like I just, I can't have a conversation.
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  And so I then started to notice these signs that I was getting quite burnt out.
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  And so I had to walk away about 35 years earlier than what I planned.
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  I thought I would be doing that until I was 70 and at 35 I closed my practice and I was just left eating my mortgage from a financial perspective.
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  So I ate my house for a year while I tried to figure out what to do.
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  So now I'm in a position where I've just kind of made up my job.
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  So I never wanted to go away from psychology. I still love it.
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  I just kind of fell into writing books and now I do a stack of media, most of which is unpaid.
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  Some TV and I'm in a position now where I just am on the speaking circuit.
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  So how was that decision? I guess when you were closing down your practice, you'd burnt out, you knew your health had to come first, yet you still need to generate an income because you had a mortgage.
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  How difficult was that decision to make or how easy was it to make to prioritise your health and not prioritise money and kind of set those boundaries?
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  It's interesting how you asked that question because I could answer it both ways.
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  I think it was both, it was a decision I couldn't not make and also it was the hardest decision.
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  I felt like I would lose the best thing that it ever happened to be in my wife.
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  We weren't married at the time but I was like I don't want to compromise my relationship for its work.
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  I actually had lunch on the 15th of January, 2015, I had lunch with a colleague of mine and I cried and told him how I was feeling and he said to me, you need to stop before your forced two weeks later I shut my practice.
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  So in that two weeks I had to tell hundreds of clients that I was going and I did it thinking that I would come back.
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  I didn't know that it was the end.
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  So I had this kind of long term discovery process of finding out that I was done, not just partially done but properly done.
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  I had this recurrence of feelings of failure.
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  Here I was with this thriving practice and there's a very comfortable multi-six figure income that I was literally walking away from.
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  I was embarrassed and I felt like I was letting my my referrals down and my patients down.
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  So it was this emotional grief process that I had to experience while also going, I just can't do this anymore.
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  Gosh, I mean, yeah, huge.
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  And when you say like you had no choice, was it where you were in a case of almost life and death, health wise or was it more of an emotional like, oh my goodness, I cannot do this anymore.
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  And I need to just stop now and maybe I can step back in because it's so scary.
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  The idea of having huge debt and then walking away from something you've built, I'm just like kind of blown away by that and amazed at the same time.
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  And I also think that like you're saying, so I think it would stress me out more knowing I still had a mortgage to pay.
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  If you had a health problem or for me, I would probably think it would be picking the best of a worst outcome if that makes sense.
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  You know, I either shut down my business to look after my health, but that's going to get me more stress because I've got a mortgage to pay.
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  Like how did you navigate that decision and that choice?
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  The first thing was I got permission from my wife and by permission, nobody gives me permission to do anything. I generally do whatever I want to do.
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  But at the beginning of our relationship, we're talking 11 years ago, so I was in a position where we had this discussion over a couple of years and she finally said,
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  but why aren't you stopping if you want to stop? So to have someone beside me and say, I can see you're not doing well. Why don't you stop? It's okay to stop.
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  I was almost like just showing me a gap in the door and then to walk through the door, I had to wrap my head around, okay, how am I going to do this financially?
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  Because I wasn't supported by her. I supported myself. And so you're right. I did have a mortgage and it was my colleague who I had lunch with who said to me,
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  what's so bad with using the equity in your home to save your own life? And when he said that, I was like,
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  shit, okay, when you put it like that, there's probably no better way that I can spend that money if I ever had to spend it.
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  And so when we talk about my wellness, it wasn't blood markers, but I'm a clinical psychologist. So I'm very good at noticing my own symptoms and what had happened is when I talk about burnout,
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  I certainly had a phase of burnout, but that burnout had turned into clinically significant levels of anxiety and depression.
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  So we had leveled up clinically to the point where I really wasn't well. And I have strong feelings about clinicians not looking after their physical and mental health when they're practicing.
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  So that's out of alignment for me. If I showed up for you as my patient, then I want you to know that I'm there as fully as I can possibly be and at that time I wasn't.
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  So all of those things fed into my decision. But I think it's really important that we say it was a privilege to make that decision.
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  I was in a position where I did have money there that I could use. And then we could also argue that the way I worked cost me money in the end.
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  Yes, yeah. Wow.
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  Thank you for being so honest and open about that because I know obviously what you do for work is to share and help people to navigate all kinds of, you know, from difficult people to situations.
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  And that's obviously inherent in the work that you do is helping people, but I do think the conversations around money and life decisions.
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  And there'll be so many people that might even now feel like they have permission to mention to someone they love if they see them really struggling.
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  Like maybe you could think about doing this differently or could you look at your financial situation and reject your priorities.
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  Like I think there's a lot of love that came from your partner and from your colleague and, you know, of course, overstepping boundaries when it comes to that kind of thing.
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  But if someone is like clearly really unwell, maybe they're needing permission to look at things differently and reconsider their values.
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  So I think sharing that story in such detail will have helped a lot of people. So thank you for that.
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  Bek, I'd love to talk, since you've mentioned your partner, I would really love to learn from your relationship dynamic.
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  What can heterosexual couples learn from couples and same-sex relationships when it comes to money and division of labor and division of resources?
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  I'd be really interested to know how you've never gathered finances with your wife and what we've learned from that.
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  Yeah, so I've done both. I was with men prior to being with Nissa, and so I guess the longest relationship I had with an ex-boyfriend, I just found that our approaches to money was so disparate that I really didn't like it.
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  It's probably one of the reasons we actually didn't last is like the tightest human being I've ever met.
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  And while I'm attractive, isn't it?
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  It would say to me, it's really important that you turn the TV off at the wall because it saves money.
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  And it's not an attractive quality for me, and I just couldn't handle living like that.
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  When it comes to my wife and I, it's probably worth noting, she's not neurotypical, so she's got ADHD.
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  So many creatives have non neurotypical brains, and so one of her strengths is that she's just remarkable at being able to do composed music and play any instrument you want and whatever.
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  But it's not necessarily to logically think through a step-wise process that might be managing finances.
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  So we play to our strengths in our relationship, and we have a very joint-based relationship where we are working towards shared goals.
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  It's not your thing and my thing.
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  It's like, well, if I'm out of the house doing some kind of project, it's because what I'm bringing back in is for us as a family.
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  It's not for me. It's for us together.
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  So when it comes to the practicalities of managing finances, you'll see me paying the bills.
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  I'll be the one with the spreadsheet because I'm the neurotypical one.
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  But when it comes to big decisions, which sometimes we have to make because we both are creatives and we're both entrepreneurs, it's a collaborative experience of managing money.
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  And then the practicalities come down to what are you good at and what am I good at and how do we work with that?
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  It's literally our business dynamic.
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  It's a married couple.
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  It works.
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  It also vex neurotypical and I'm not.
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  And so it's really interesting when it comes to being in business with someone when your brain works so differently.
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  And I think it would be exactly the same in relationship.
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  You do actually have to play to your strengths because trying to get someone who has ADHD to do a financial forecast or a spreadsheet or like,
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  it's just not how our brains work.
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  And so I'm very fortunate to be in business with someone who's incredibly brilliant at that.
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  And obviously you and your partner like that works so well.
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  And I think from your experience working with clients and lots of different people and seeing different dynamics.
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  Do you think that that is like a good universal thought around like joint finances or finances and relationships?
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  Or do you think there could be strengths and people being independent from each other financially?
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  I'd love to know if you have any thoughts on that.
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  It depends on how you approach your relationship.
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  And I think this isn't just about are we playing to our strengths?
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  I think we also need to look at how do we feel about trust?
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  How do we feel about control?
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  Because if you're in a relationship where one of you, there's some kind of unhealthy power dynamic and one of you has control over the other.
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  So for instance, I know I have a friend who went on maternity leave and she had separate accounts with her and her partner.
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  And he wouldn't give her any money for expenses while she was on maternity leave.
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  Now, so if I can see you grimacing there and makes me feel the same way,
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  but they have a dynamic in their relationship where that just works because she's seriously independent.
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  And she had already saved up what she wanted to spend on her maternity leave.
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  And he pays other bills in their relationships.
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  So I think we need to make space for lots of different shapes of relationships.
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  But I will just say that when we're talking about the practicalities of finances,
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  we're never just talking about playing to your strengths or the practicalities of who does the spreadsheet.
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  We're talking about much deeper things, which are trust, control,
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  and how do you actually show up in your relationship to collaborate?
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  Yeah, every relationship is so different.
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  The only thing that does concern me is that majority of women in heterosexual relationships do tend to not have those conversations with their partner.
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  And so they don't realize that yes, it might just be a period of time,
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  whether on maternity leave or a period of time that they're looking after the family.
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  I guess they don't understand or realize the compounding effects they can have later in life for them in terms of their financial independence or their financial wealth.
• 17:22
  And I think that's the important thing is what we try to talk about is,
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  yes, you might only be taking out six months a year, two years,
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  which doesn't seem like a lot in the scheme of things.
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  But what you're not earning then or what you're not contributing to your retirement can have multiple times more effects on your wealth.
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  Later down the track and so I think, yeah, I think that's kind of it.
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  The decade-old consequences that you'll be facing are big things.
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  And I think you're exactly right.
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  One of the most important things is that there's a conversation about it.
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  And this is where we end up discussing boundaries.
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  Because oftentimes it's like, well, how do I have that conversation?
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  Because I don't feel like it's something that I can bring up.
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  I'm a big believer that we need to cover all the hard stuff from the get-go.
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  And money can be one of those hard things.
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  Yeah.
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  So why do you think, with boundaries in general,
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  women or them identifying people struggle so much to create boundaries?
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  Whether that be in relationship, whether it be with your boss, friends, why is it particularly hard for us?
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  Because we're conditioned to not do it.
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  We have not only been raised by generations before us that haven't had anywhere near the capabilities that we have to set boundaries.
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  So therefore it's not necessarily been modeled well.
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  But we've been raised in cultural and social conditions that tell us that in order to be worthy,
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  in order to be acceptable and in order to be approved of as women or femme identifying folk,
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  we need to not be hard work.
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  Thanks very much.
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  And we need to make sure that we're good girls.
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  And we do the right thing.
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  And we're not devourish.
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  And we're not selfish.
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  And we're not unkind or mean.
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  And so therefore boundaries are generally seen as off the table.
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  Because one of the things that we learn during all of that overt and covert messaging,
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  as we grow up into adulthood,
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  is that if I speak up for myself,
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  that's probably going to be taken negatively.
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  And there'll be consequences of that.
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  So in other words, we become habitual people pleases.
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  And we use people pleasing as a coping strategy.
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  Because I'm very aware that I've got quite bad boundaries.
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  Like even like work is definitely something I struggle to set boundaries within the sense that like,
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  you know, for example, for me in the morning doing a meditation before working
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  makes so much difference to my overall health,
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  to the way that I show up, to the person that I am.
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  I love that you meditate if you're neurodivergent.
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  I think that is the most beautiful practice,
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  but it's so hard. Good on you.
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  Thank you.
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  Do you know, I just came back for a seven day silent meditation retreat.
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  And that was so difficult.
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  But in terms of boundaries,
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  like that's not something I can be strong enough on.
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  So like if someone's like,
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  okay, cool, can we do a seven a.m. thing?
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  I'm like, yep, yep.
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  But it's like, actually, no, I need to say,
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  I'm not going to do anything before 8 30 because I need to do my morning practices to set me up for the day.
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  You know, but I don't feel like I can do that.
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  And I don't know if you have any advice for people who are similar
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  and that they struggle with boundaries like,
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  are we best to look at the place of our life that we don't want to compromise on?
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  And then figure out ways to work back from there.
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  Like how do we even go about looking at our life?
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  How it is.
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  And then looking to improve that by implementing boundaries in different areas.
• 20:49
  I do. I do have advice.
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  Let's just go back to what you just said in terms of,
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  it's something that's important to you,
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  but it gets disrupted when we bring in someone that's asking a demand of you.
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  So we're talking about two things there.
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  And I think this concept might be useful for listeners.
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  The first is that you have an internal boundary when you meditate.
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  An internal boundary is a boundary that's between you and you.
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  Got nothing to do with anyone else.
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  It's just something that you want to enforce for yourself,
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  because there's some kind of outcome that you're looking for.
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  So to sit down and meditate, no one's coming.
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  An internal boundaries between you and you.
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  When we're talking about finances,
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  we're often talking about internal boundaries,
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  especially when you're talking about just your accounts alone.
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  That's what are you doing that you've promised yourself?
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  You would do, or what are you not doing that you promised yourself that you would do?
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  Now, then we have an external boundary,
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  which is someone from work has asked you to show up at 7am for a meeting.
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  That's the external boundaries when it's between you and another person.
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  So the first thing that I need you to look at when you're thinking about boundaries in your life is,
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  okay, you've got an internal boundary that you want to meditate,
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  but it's not happening when there's requests at work.
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  So the first issue is your internal boundary easily shifts
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  when someone else gets involved because you people please.
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  You naturally kind of go, oh, someone wants me,
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  and that's much more important.
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  There needs a much more important than my needs that I've set for myself.
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  So what we can do is we can actually rejig what's happening in your mind
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  to make sure that you understand that people pleasing is not a bad thing
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  as long as your needs are met in the first place.
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  You'll actually notice yourself bending because someone else wants something from you.
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  I don't have an issue with you doing that.
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  I only have an issue if it's taking something from your giving tanks
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  that you don't have available.
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  Now, what's happening when you meditate is you're actually putting fuel in your giving tanks.
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  Now, you're being requested to give out from your giving tanks
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  at the same time as meditating.
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  There are sometimes where the priority will be hugely important
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  and other times where you'll go actually no meditations more important.
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  But when it comes down to it, when you're pouring into your giving tanks
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  that needs to be happening more often than not
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  because otherwise you're going to end up with rusty tanks.
• 23:21
  I wanted to talk about, so we kind of talked about work boundaries,
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  time boundaries and personal boundaries.
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  I wanted to kind of bring it back in terms of money boundaries
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  because recently I discussed the stuff as well.
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  I've had to reduce my salary being employed full-time
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  and now working for the curve.
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  And I've really had to learn to say no to a lot of things,
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  which historically I never really had to in a sense.
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  Whereas now I feel like it's rare.
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  I'm really struggling with setting boundaries
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  from a money perspective in terms of saying no, I can't afford that.
• 23:57
  No, I can't do that.
• 23:58
  And so, yeah, do you have any tips or tricks around having
• 24:02
  setting those money boundaries for yourself
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  without feeling uncomfortable or quid,
• 24:06
  upset, or therebove?
• 24:09
  You just added the describe.
• 24:11
  No, it makes it really difficult.
• 24:13
  Is there a way to set boundaries?
• 24:15
  But that can be happy.
• 24:16
  No, sorry, no, there's not.
• 24:18
  But I do because I've been there.
• 24:20
  And in some ways still am there.
• 24:22
  I totally get it.
• 24:23
  I would love to be having pedicures and facials
• 24:26
  and having my nails done as much as I used to.
• 24:29
  And that just does not happen
• 24:31
  because those things are nice to have things.
• 24:35
  They're not absolutely essential things.
• 24:37
  So one of the things I want you to think about,
• 24:39
  especially when we're just talking about internal boundaries,
• 24:41
  when it's a change for you and you're thinking about perhaps
• 24:44
  things that used to be easier financially
• 24:46
  that are now out of reach,
• 24:48
  is that it can be really helpful to simply just say,
• 24:51
  I can't do this right now.
• 24:53
  Because sometimes what's happening with our fear system
• 24:56
  is that you think this is the way it's going to be forever.
• 24:59
  And the reason we do this is because brains have a negativity bias
• 25:03
  where they're actually very problem-focused.
• 25:05
  So if there's a problem your brain will just want to stay focusing on that,
• 25:09
  which is why we see people facing the cost of living crisis so anxious
• 25:14
  because that's all they can think about
• 25:16
  because of this negativity bias in our brains.
• 25:18
  But sometimes it can help to simply just shift that hold
• 25:22
  that that bias has on us to be able to go,
• 25:48
  I don't know if I can't afford it,
• 25:50
  or sorry no, it's out of my budget,
• 25:52
  is the way that we can set those personal boundaries only by being that honest,
• 25:56
  is that a good thing, or I don't know,
• 25:59
  because that is a whole thing in itself.
• 26:02
  I have a number of thoughts about this.
• 26:04
  Let's first start with, you don't always have to say it like that.
• 26:07
  So you could phrase it in a different way,
• 26:10
  which doesn't require you to say,
• 26:12
  I can't afford it, which is kind of leaning on the negative side of things.
• 26:16
  You could say the way I've set my expenditure up right now,
• 26:20
  I don't want to make space for that.
• 26:22
  So it's a base based on choice.
• 26:24
  I like that.
• 26:25
  I often do this with time.
• 26:27
  It's not like I'm too busy, I'm not too busy.
• 26:29
  It's just that my plate is as full as I'm comfortable with right now.
• 26:32
  Oh, she's so good at boundaries.
• 26:35
  Oh my goodness, because it makes me feel a key even hearing it.
• 26:39
  Isn't that bad?
• 26:40
  Like I immediately get like awkward,
• 26:43
  which it shouldn't be, but it's like obviously that's how much they struggle with boundaries.
• 26:47
  No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
• 26:49
  This is not a sofa thing.
• 26:51
  Really?
• 26:52
  This is a human thing.
• 26:53
  Let's not make you broken out of this, because that's not true.
• 26:56
  So what's happening is you're feeling embarrassed because what happens is we compare.
• 27:02
  So in a social situation,
• 27:04
  when you have to say something out loud that makes you feel less than,
• 27:07
  like I can't go to your hands do
• 27:11
  and your destination wedding because I can't afford it.
• 27:14
  I can only go to one or the other.
• 27:16
  And that makes you feel like shit because there are other people who can afford to do those things.
• 27:21
  You're in a position where everything has been activated in you about belonging.
• 27:25
  So human beings are wired to belong to each other.
• 27:29
  And when we compare with other people at a DNA level,
• 27:33
  it feels like we're going to be kicked out of the clan.
• 27:35
  It feels like we're going to be rejected.
• 27:37
  We're going to be seen as not good enough for our tribe.
• 27:41
  And therefore rejected.
• 27:43
  Oh, I'm sorry.
• 27:44
  It's a very useful one moment.
• 27:46
  I think that is potentially being the biggest revelation,
• 27:49
  well, I have had in such a long time around money,
• 27:53
  because we talk about this a lot,
• 27:55
  like if you're paying the bill,
• 27:57
  can you ask to maybe not pay for the alcohol as well as the food?
• 28:00
  If you've only eaten and how much shame is wrapped up in that whole thing?
• 28:05
  That I never knew how to vocalize or understand why?
• 28:10
  And that is so, it makes so much sense,
• 28:14
  the idea of rejection and the feeling of like not belonging.
• 28:18
  I also think there's a need for people to respond in a way
• 28:24
  when someone sees that,
• 28:26
  that maybe they respond in a way,
• 28:28
  like we all could, if someone said that to us,
• 28:31
  hey, sorry, I can't afford now
• 28:33
  or I'm choosing to do my money elsewhere
• 28:35
  or however they phrase it is being like,
• 28:38
  oh, that's awesome.
• 28:39
  We would still love you to come along.
• 28:41
  And I don't know, just something along the lines of,
• 28:44
  we still want you there.
• 28:45
  How can we make it work?
• 28:47
  Or something along the lines of belonging
• 28:49
  or being together and so that then, therefore,
• 28:52
  they don't feel that sense of being cast aside
• 28:55
  because they can't afford.
• 28:58
  Absolutely. And psychologically safe groups,
• 29:00
  that's what we would see happen.
• 29:02
  So I think when you're with people who are safe
• 29:05
  and who genuinely have your well-being at heart
• 29:08
  and they want you to be there, you belong to them,
• 29:11
  that's the reaction that you'll get largely.
• 29:13
  I really want to talk about self-sabotage
• 29:15
  when it comes to money because I don't totally understand
• 29:20
  the concept, but I would love to
• 29:24
  and then understand how we can try and not do that.
• 29:29
  I guess it all comes back to prioritizing our relationship
• 29:32
  with our self over everything else.
• 29:35
  But yeah, I would love to hear your thoughts
• 29:37
  and wisdom in this space.
• 29:39
  So self-sabotage is really easily understood
• 29:42
  by just understanding that it's when you say
• 29:44
  you want to do something and you don't do it.
• 29:46
  That's it.
• 29:47
  Well, I should probably clarify,
• 29:49
  you don't do it for reasons for the discomfort-based.
• 29:51
  So they're not legitimate reasons like your flight was cancelled.
• 29:54
  It's when you're talking about sticking to a budget,
• 29:57
  maybe you draw up a budget for this month
• 29:59
  and all of a sudden,
• 30:01
  the idea of saying no to those work drinks,
• 30:05
  which is over your quota,
• 30:07
  just is so uncomfortable that you say yes
• 30:09
  because yes is easier in the moment,
• 30:11
  even though the consequences of that no feel really
• 30:14
  out of alignment for you.
• 30:16
  So self-sabotage occurs when you're choosing
• 30:20
  your present moment comfort over your long-term goals for yourself.
• 30:25
  No, I think a lot of people would be able to relate to that in terms of...
• 30:29
  It's almost that delay gratification.
• 30:32
  Yeah, it's like,
• 30:33
  if I spend money now,
• 30:34
  I get that gratification or that of consuming that
• 30:38
  or whatever it is that you're spending money on
• 30:40
  rather than delaying it.
• 30:41
  And that's something I've really discovered.
• 30:43
  I feel the point of understanding,
• 30:45
  like Vic understands the idea of long-term gratification,
• 30:49
  better than anyone though,
• 30:50
  because she's invested for such a long period of time.
• 30:53
  So I think with everything in your life, Vic,
• 30:55
  you're like,
• 30:56
  I want to get fit.
• 30:57
  Cool.
• 30:58
  I'm going to go to Pilates every day.
• 30:59
  I want to do this.
• 31:00
  Cool.
• 31:01
  She's so good at doing that.
• 31:02
  And I actually think you're really good
• 31:04
  with your own personal boundaries in that way.
• 31:07
  But I think that's...
• 31:08
  I'm not.
• 31:09
  But I think...
• 31:10
  What, sorry, what were you going to say?
• 31:11
  No, I think that's interesting.
• 31:13
  You think that because I think I'm bad at that.
• 31:16
  And I could be a lot better in terms of
• 31:19
  putting...
• 31:20
  Putting away more for retirement for those goals,
• 31:23
  you know, not spending money right now.
• 31:25
  I'm stupid shit that there's been money on.
• 31:27
  Vic, can I just add to that?
• 31:29
  Yeah.
• 31:30
  Right.
• 31:31
  Perfectionism is a form of self-subtouch.
• 31:33
  So I don't mean to call you out.
• 31:35
  I'll make you...
• 31:36
  I just want to help you to raise your awareness
• 31:39
  because it sounds like you're doing something fantastically.
• 31:42
  In fact, it sounds like you're doing many things fantastically.
• 31:44
  And what I'm hearing is the voice in your head automatically
• 31:47
  says, yeah, but it could be better.
• 31:49
  Perfectionism makes us these promises about the future,
• 31:53
  about a time in the future when we'll be able to relax.
• 31:56
  But you can't relax right now because you're not...
• 31:59
  You haven't got it right.
• 32:00
  You're not at the bar.
• 32:01
  Yeah.
• 32:02
  The problem is that the bar keeps moving.
• 32:04
  So you'll get even better at your investments.
• 32:07
  And the bar will move.
• 32:08
  Sometimes what happens is we can end up
• 32:11
  nourishing ourselves into patterns of self-subtouch
• 32:14
  as a result of our inability to be able to stop
• 32:17
  and self-compassionately give ourselves credit
• 32:21
  for how hard we're trying in something that is...
• 32:24
  It just matters so much.
• 32:26
  But because it does matter so much,
• 32:29
  we actually feel like the best thing to do is to continue
• 32:32
  whipping ourselves into better shape around it.
• 32:35
  When I think sometimes the most effective thing we can do
• 32:37
  is to stop and go, you are doing damn great.
• 32:40
  That sounds like I can't speak.
• 32:42
  I'm being serious.
• 32:43
  So I know that this is a conversation about self-sabotage
• 32:47
  and buffectionism.
• 32:49
  If people are self-identifying, oh, okay,
• 32:52
  maybe the reason I'm not achieving my financial goals
• 32:55
  is because I'm self-sabotaging.
• 32:58
  How can we pull ourselves up on that
• 33:01
  and try to not,
• 33:03
  while also being kind to ourselves,
• 33:05
  that the world is if and if we don't,
• 33:08
  we're trying to find ourselves
• 33:10
  that the world is if and expensive right now.
• 33:12
  And you want to also have that level of,
• 33:14
  like, know what you're doing is good enough,
• 33:16
  even if you aren't quite getting there.
• 33:18
  Like, how do we differentiate that in terms of...
• 33:21
  I'm not sure if that makes sense.
• 33:23
  No, it does, and it's all of those things.
• 33:25
  So essentially, when you first said,
• 33:27
  and how can we just not self-sabotage,
• 33:30
  my first response would be, well, you can't.
• 33:33
  So one of the things that occurs for self-sabotage
• 33:36
  is it comes from a place of self-protection.
• 33:39
  So when discomfort arrives within you,
• 33:42
  emotional discomfort, your brain is wired to go,
• 33:45
  oh, no, let's do something that restores equilibrium
• 33:48
  and makes us feel comfortable again.
• 33:50
  The problem is that the brain can't always tell the difference
• 33:53
  between discomfort that's going to keep you stagnant
• 33:56
  and spinning your wheels versus discomfort for growth.
• 33:59
  When people are self-sabotaging around money,
• 34:02
  often times it's because they actually don't feel
• 34:05
  like the discomfort will be worth it.
• 34:07
  They don't believe in the results.
• 34:09
  They either don't believe in themselves to create the results
• 34:12
  or they don't believe that the results are possible.
• 34:14
  Now, the disclaimer here is we are in a cost of living crisis.
• 34:18
  So I'm not going to sit here and say,
• 34:21
  look, if you really wanted to invest, you could,
• 34:23
  because that's bullshit.
• 34:24
  That's absolute bullshit.
• 34:26
  We're in a place now where people are struggling
• 34:29
  to find rental properties and let alone affording
• 34:32
  those rental properties.
• 34:33
  People are struggling with interest rate rises
• 34:35
  and on and on it goes groceries, all of the things.
• 34:38
  So, you know, for us talking about self-sabotage now,
• 34:42
  I think we need to be very gentle and remind our listeners
• 34:46
  that if you're against the wire right now,
• 34:48
  that is the way it is.
• 34:50
  Luckily, financial cycles are cyclical.
• 34:53
  So at some point we'll come out of this,
• 34:55
  but right now, please don't put too much pressure on yourself
• 34:58
  if you think you should be doing better with your finances,
• 35:01
  but you can barely pay your electricity bill.
• 35:03
  Like, that's okay.
• 35:04
  A lot of people are struggling right now.
• 35:06
  I was just going to use an example.
• 35:08
  Like, when we were in London,
• 35:10
  I don't know, Vickett had been having a bit of a shit time
• 35:13
  and there was just like things going on
• 35:15
  and I bought flowers for her.
• 35:17
  These random kind of shit flowers, actually, in hindsight.
• 35:21
  And they were like 20 pounds.
• 35:23
  And it was the last 20 pounds in my account.
• 35:25
  And I even was like swiping on the ADHD thing.
• 35:30
  I was swiping on the chew being like, oh my God,
• 35:32
  I might not be able to get into it to give her these flowers.
• 35:35
  But just even that in itself, I was like, oh my God.
• 35:40
  But that is like self-sabotage that's not helpful.
• 35:43
  Do you know what I mean?
• 35:44
  So I'm kind of like, I shouldn't have done that.
• 35:47
  So I'm kind of, I fully appreciate that there's people
• 35:50
  who can't have no wiggle room.
• 35:53
  But if you do and you're constantly letting yourself down
• 35:56
  with that self-sabotage, what can we then do in that kind of scenario?
• 36:00
  So we need to look at two parts of this oath
• 36:03
  because financial management is often harder for neurodiverse people
• 36:07
  because it involves future-based prediction
• 36:11
  and it also involves kind of logical sequential steps.
• 36:15
  So sometimes that can be much harder.
• 36:18
  And if you're listening and you're neurodiverse,
• 36:21
  I would really encourage you to read some literature
• 36:23
  on financial management for people who are neurodiverse
• 36:27
  because those impulse bias can actually be really common.
• 36:31
  It's not a function necessarily of self-sabotage.
• 36:33
  It can simply just be because of the way your brains wide.
• 36:36
  But when it is self-sabotage
• 36:38
  and you find it's actually become a pattern,
• 36:40
  you can see yourself doing this.
• 36:42
  You get down to the wire every single time.
• 36:44
  It's really worth number one, firstly, approaching yourself
• 36:48
  with compassion.
• 36:49
  You're human.
• 36:50
  You're doing the best that you can
• 36:51
  and sometimes the best that you can is that you operate
• 36:54
  from a place of self-protection.
• 36:56
  Your unconscious kicks in,
• 36:58
  you automatically behave seeking comfort
• 37:01
  rather than going for discomfort,
• 37:03
  discomfort for growth, that is.
• 37:05
  And then secondly, you know, changing self-sabotage
• 37:09
  is all about pattern recognition.
• 37:11
  If you recognize a pattern that's not working for you,
• 37:14
  then we need to look at the tiniest step
• 37:16
  that will interrupt that pattern.
• 37:18
  So that might be that you start interrupting the pattern
• 37:22
  from a place where you actually feel it can be interrupted.
• 37:25
  So when it comes to buying that last,
• 37:27
  using the last 20 pounds on a bunch of flowers,
• 37:30
  that might be that you've decided
• 37:33
  that when you get to 50 pounds in your bank account,
• 37:36
  that money is actually not available.
• 37:38
  Like that's a zero for you,
• 37:39
  rather than actually seeing it as available.
• 37:42
  So there's always money in your account for emergencies.
• 37:45
  It can depend on where the cycle happens
• 37:48
  for you to be able to interrupt.
• 37:50
  Yeah, I mean, God, it's just such a hard thing to navigate
• 37:53
  because your money is so emotional as well.
• 37:55
  So so many of the decisions that we make,
• 37:58
  and especially if you're in the heat of the moment
• 38:00
  or you're making a decision based on emotion,
• 38:03
  often it's really easy to think in that moment
• 38:06
  the decision you make is best for you,
• 38:08
  rather than what you've previously promised yourself.
• 38:11
  Yes, and that's ultimately unconsciously driven.
• 38:14
  Because our unconscious will make a decision
• 38:17
  that feels good in the moment,
• 38:19
  rather than actually thinking about how good it feels
• 38:22
  on the other side when you've actually chosen
• 38:25
  discomfort in the service of growth,
• 38:27
  because what we don't talk about enough with self sabotage
• 38:29
  is actually how good it feels to withstand
• 38:32
  a little bit of discomfort for the good results,
• 38:35
  whether it's reaping the rewards of your investments,
• 38:38
  or whether it's being able to say
• 38:40
  I had some money left over at the end of this week, you know?
• 38:43
  We don't talk enough about the good parts
• 38:45
  of being able to sit with discomfort.
• 38:47
  Yeah, no, I totally don't mean I was able to sit there.
• 38:50
  Also, I apologise for Victoria,
• 38:52
  like her host who has just decided to leave the call.
• 38:55
  I know, actually seven technicals,
• 38:57
  I'm getting like a message from her being like,
• 38:58
  shit, I'm locked out.
• 39:00
  But I'm aware we're spoken to for so long
• 39:03
  and we've got a giant plug we need to do for your book,
• 39:07
  which is available now, difficult people.
• 39:09
  But I also just would love to say,
• 39:12
  you know, the amount of work that you've done
• 39:15
  to understand people's brains and behaviour
• 39:18
  to then be able to write so many incredible books
• 39:21
  and then come on podcast like ours and share your knowledge.
• 39:23
  Like this is the stuff that people could go their entire lives
• 39:26
  not understanding or knowing
• 39:28
  if it wasn't broken down by someone like you.
• 39:30
  So yeah, thank you for sharing.
• 39:34
  So I feel like kind of emotional.
• 39:36
  I don't know why.
• 39:37
  I think so much of what you've shared.
• 39:39
  And also, I think the understanding
• 39:41
  that you know how ADHD brains work
• 39:44
  and the compassion that you have there
• 39:46
  is it's so new to me.
• 39:48
  I'm still like unraveling the whole thing for myself.
• 39:51
  And yeah, I just, I've loved this conversation.
• 39:54
  So thank you for sharing everything.
• 39:56
  For anyone that wants to learn more
• 39:58
  or read any of your nine amazing books,
• 40:01
  Doctor Rebecca Ray, R-A-Y,
• 40:04
  and her most recent book, Difficult People,
• 40:06
  is like to sum of what we've spoken about today,
• 40:09
  resonate and reflect on what that book is about.
• 40:13
  Yeah, definitely when we're in a place
• 40:16
  where we don't feel psychologically safe
• 40:18
  with people around us.
• 40:19
  You know, if you're trying to have hard conversations
• 40:21
  around money with someone who's not safe for you,
• 40:24
  it becomes much harder.
• 40:25
  Difficult people's the book to explore with them.
• 40:27
  If you just want to start with boundary basics,
• 40:30
  go for setting boundaries.
• 40:32
  That book covers so many steps,
• 40:34
  so many, so many parts where you can actually just explore
• 40:37
  yourself to get to know what your boundaries are
• 40:39
  to begin with.
• 40:40
  Amazing.
• 40:41
  Thank you so much for your time.
• 40:42
  It was so lovely to meet you.
• 40:44
  Oh, you too.
• 40:45
  And we can get you again sometime.
• 40:47
  I know you're very, very busy
• 40:49
  with all sorts like media and writing and everything,
• 40:52
  but we're super grateful for your time.
• 40:54
  So thank you so much.
• 40:55
  Thank you so much for listening to Raising the Curve.
• 40:58
  These conversations are designed to teach you everything
• 41:01
  that you need to know to be better with your money.
• 41:03
  From saving, to investing, to talking to your friends
• 41:06
  about your salaries.
• 41:07
  And if you liked what you heard, we would love it.
• 41:10
  If you could hit the subscribe button, please.
• 41:12
  Or, leave a review.
• 41:14
  It'll only take five seconds,
• 41:16
  and it would really make our week.
• 41:18
  Our month.
• 41:19
  Okay.
• 41:20
  Lots of love. See you soon.
• 41:21
  Bye.